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14:42:00 logging to http://www.w3.org/2013/05/14-html-media-irc
14:42:02 RRSAgent, make logs public
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14:42:04 Zakim, this will be 63342
14:42:04 ok, trackbot; I see HTML_WG()11:00AM scheduled to start in 18 minutes
14:42:05 Meeting: HTML Media Task Force Teleconference
14:42:05 Date: 14 May 2013
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14:57:47 HTML_WG()11:00AM has now started
14:57:53 + +1.831.457.aaaa
14:58:05 zakim, i am aaaa
14:58:06 +Michael_Thornburgh; got it
14:58:35 joesteele has joined #html-media
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14:59:25 +[Microsoft]
14:59:34 zakim, [Microsoft] is me
14:59:35 +paulc; got it
14:59:37 + +33.1.45.81.aabb
14:59:52 zakim, aabb is me
14:59:52 +Cyril; got it
15:00:10 Agenda: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html-media/2013May/0082.html
15:00:13 +Aaron_Colwell
15:00:20 +joesteele
15:00:35 Scribe: joesteele
15:00:40 +Bin_Hu
15:00:45 ScribeNick: joesteele
15:01:09 rrsagent, generate minutes
15:01:09 I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2013/05/14-html-media-minutes.html paulc
15:01:19 ddorwin has joined #html-media
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15:01:59 John Simmons sent his regrets for today.
15:02:09 +ddorwin
15:02:15 +Mark_Watson
15:02:16 +glenn
15:02:34 Zakim, Mark_Watson is markw
15:02:34 +markw; got it
15:02:39 Topic: Roll call
15:02:43 zakim, who is on the phone?
15:02:44 On the phone I see Michael_Thornburgh, paulc, Cyril, Aaron_Colwell, joesteele, Bin_Hu (muted), ddorwin, markw, glenn
15:02:58 +[Microsoft]
15:03:05 zakim, [Microsoft] is me
15:03:06 +adrianba; got it
15:03:23 Topic: Previous Minutes
15:03:37 +pal
15:03:39 http://www.w3.org/2013/04/30-html-media-minutes.html http://www.w3.org/2013/05/07-html-media-minutes.html
15:03:44 VER 2 agenda: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html-media/2013May/0082.html
15:04:05 paulc: using later version of the agenda
15:04:18 jdsmith has joined #html-media
15:04:19 pal has joined #html-media
15:04:22 Topic: Action items and issues
15:04:30 paulc: 2 items and one issue
15:04:39 ... ACTION 10 was on Adrian
15:05:00 adrianba: there's an action for everyone to arrive at consensus on model for the session
15:05:08 BobLund has joined #html-media
15:05:10 +[Microsoft]
15:05:14 ... have not caught up on the status lately
15:05:29 paulc: bug 19208 is still open?
15:05:36 adrianba: may be
15:05:54 paulc: resolved as a dup of 28155
15:06:00 Bug 21855 - Avoid network traffic and duplicate sessions for the same key(s)
15:06:08 https://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=21855
15:06:29 s/dup of 28155/dup of 21855/
15:06:33 Topic: ACTION 11
15:06:51 paulc: write a proposal for the JS -- Mark did this and the link is in the agenda
15:06:53 ACTION-11?
15:06:53 ACTION-11 -- Mark Watson to write a proposal for the case where the data is not available to the JS -- due 2013-04-16 -- OPEN
15:06:53 http://www.w3.org/html/wg/media/track/actions/11
15:06:55 +BobLunbd
15:07:11 paulc: believe this is now done?
15:07:14 markw: yes
15:07:30 paulc: marking as closed
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15:08:24 ddorwin: showing as closed now
15:08:43 Topic: Open Issues
15:09:02 paulc: this is re: moving the ClearKey spec into a separate docs
15:09:13 + +1.760.591.aacc
15:09:15 https://www.w3.org/html/wg/media/track/issues/1
15:09:24 Topic: MSE status and bugs
15:09:54 Zakim, aacc is me
15:09:54 +pladd; got it
15:09:55 paulc: updated a couple of the sub agenda items based on Aarons status report
15:10:12 paulc: Aaron has updated the editors draft which is in the agenda
15:10:20 ... sent a message giving the update information
15:10:29 ... Aaron do you want to add?
15:10:40 acolwell: no - just working on editorial changes
15:10:43 Aarron's update on MSE: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html-media/2013May/0075.html
15:10:52 ... will provide some additional text this week
15:11:01 paulc: any comments on this?
15:11:18 paulc: assume that only outstanding bug it the splicing bug?
15:11:21 Bug 21431 - Specify splicing behavior for text tracks
15:11:32 https://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=21431
15:12:09 q+
15:12:14 q+
15:12:14 paulc: so you will impleent what is in comment #12?
15:12:18 Planning to implement: https://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=21431#c12
15:12:35 ack jdsmith
15:12:52 jdsmith: at the F2F talking about video quality we settled returning dropped frames as the indicator of quality
15:13:02 ... it is actually difficult to measure dropped frames
15:13:12 ... more accurate for us to measure rendered frames
15:13:25 https://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=20760
15:13:29 ... original proposal was to return average frame rate of rendered frames
15:13:43 ... returning dropped frames is problematic in our implementation
15:13:53 paulc: bug number?
15:14:30 Current status of 20760 is RESOLVED FIXED
15:14:46 acolwell: question is that we should have the total number and rendered frames, so should calc difference
15:15:11 jdsmitth: we have approximate average frame rate so we can approximate
15:15:20 [Paul apologizes for his rough cough if it is audible]
15:15:23 s/jdsmitth:/jdsmith:/
15:15:36 acolwell: this should be accurate?
15:15:47 paulc: are you asking to reconsider?
15:15:53 q+
15:16:03 jdsmitth: yes -- would prefer to return the data points and let the app figure it out
15:16:20 paulc: would prefer you reopen with explanation, possibly with revised text
15:16:25 jdsmith: ok
15:16:41 acolwell: not clear what the interval is that the frame rate is being measured on -- wary of that metric
15:16:50 q+
15:17:08 ack markw
15:17:21 markw: re: dropped frames should be simple as possible for the user to understand
15:17:39 ... don't want something simple for us but harder for users?
15:17:47 ... approximation is fine for this purpose
15:17:53 ack pal
15:18:03 pal: wanted to follow up on the issue of supporting multiple frame rates
15:18:09 ... is this really a requirement?
15:18:12 acolwell: yes
15:18:26 Q=
15:18:27 pal: so why not limit ervye buffer to a single framerate?
15:18:36 q+
15:18:41 acolwell: we don't guarantee a seemless splice between buffers
15:18:53 paulc: do we have a separate bug for this question?
15:19:15 acolwell: no - this discussion came up during time splice accuracy discussion
15:19:37 In H.264/ISO media files at least there is no such thing as frame rate. Each sample has a timestamp, that is all
15:19:43 paulc: if this is orthogonal - having a separate bug with a clear disposition would be a good paper trail
15:19:50 q-
15:19:53 ... leave it to others to decide
15:20:11 acolwell: WebM also
15:20:26 ack cyril
15:20:30 paulc: Jerry you will take the action to reopen as necessary
15:20:39 cyril: question about the text track splicing
15:20:46 Bug 21431 - Specify splicing behavior for text tracks
15:20:58 ... have not read carefully, but was something said about text tracks having variable frame rates?
15:21:07 ... may not know the duration of the queue
15:21:14 ... until the next track comes in
15:21:22 ... might have some impact on the management of the queues
15:21:31 s/queue/cue/
15:21:36 acolwell: we are assuming we know the duration of queues now
15:21:44 s/queues/cues/
15:21:45 q+
15:22:03 acolwell: may be a requirement we need to state -- need text track experts to chime in
15:22:31 cyril: for example video survellance vidoes may not know the frame rate until the vides come in
15:22:42 ... may extend the duration of the previous sample
15:23:13 acolwell: is this a common use case we need to solve now? not all MPEG-4 file supported now
15:23:27 ... can file a bug to discuss more
15:23:39 cyril: we can resolve later, but should recognize the issues
15:24:06 acolwell: some discussion has been around defining simple behavior and adding more complex logic later to describe the outlier cases
15:24:10 q+
15:24:16 cyril: I will open a bug
15:24:18 ack Bob
15:24:31 BobLund: comment on the idea of a cue with unknown length
15:24:41 ... not really unknown from a media buffer perspective
15:25:02 ... it will have an end player may not know the end
15:25:16 ... HTML5 is clear on what should happen with the rendering of text tracks
15:25:22 ack pal
15:25:27 pal: confirm current thoughts on behavior
15:25:44 ... for purposes of MSE, in the algorithm frames are replaced by cues
15:25:55 acolwell: non-overlapping cues
15:26:23 ... lots of nastiness when overlapping cues are allowed
15:26:43 paulc: any other bugs for MSE we should discuss?
15:26:54 cyril: have seen in the latest spec we say
15:27:05 ... the MOOV is not allowed in a media segment
15:27:19 ... will this trigger a decode error when encountered?
15:27:33 ... spec says what is conformant but not non-conformant
15:27:41 acolwell: let me look at the spec
15:27:56 https://dvcs.w3.org/hg/html-media/raw-file/default/media-source/media-source.html#sourcebuffer-segment-parser-loop
15:28:32 ... look at step 2 of the parsing loop
15:28:38 Quote: 2.If the input buffer starts with bytes that violate the byte stream format specifications, then run the end of stream algorithm with the error parameter set to "decode" and abort this algorithm.
15:28:45 ... this shows the signal of a decode error
15:29:03 cyril: when you have a MUST and it is not fulfilled then it is a violation
15:29:07 acolwell: yes
15:29:24 ... if you have some text that would make it clearer please suggest it
15:29:35 cyril: just in a different location, but I understand now
15:29:59 paulc: cross-references in the spec to make it clearer are useful
15:30:09 ... should be useful for 3rd partys who are not in these discussions
15:30:26 cyril: so maybe a cross-ref to the byte range specification would help
15:30:34 acolwell: add a normative note
15:30:52 s/byte range/byte stream/
15:30:52 Topic: Arrange pre-last call period for MSE
15:31:20 paulc: this will close Wed May 22nd -- this email went out a couple of weeks ago
15:31:36 paulc: we must know what bugs to process prior to Last Call
15:31:57 pal: if we want bugs resolved before must be filed by then?
15:32:11 q?
15:32:17 paulc: no -- any bugs filed before that date will be resolved before Last Call
15:32:30 ... otherwise it prevents us from going into Last Call
15:32:41 ... because we are not at 0 bugs
15:32:47 rrsagent: generate minutes
15:32:47 I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2013/05/14-html-media-minutes.html joesteele
15:33:09 paulc: this lets us identify the bugs that must really be addressed by Last Call
15:33:27 paulc: moving on to EME?
15:33:36 pal: what is the status of the primer?
15:33:53 paulc: did a call for volunteers -- have not received any volunteers as yet
15:34:36 s/pal: what is/cyril: what is/
15:34:48 Call for volunteers: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html-admin/2013May/0002.html
15:34:58 s/pal: if we want/cyril: if we want/
15:35:15 cyril: might want to volunteer
15:35:33 paulc: might want to have a conversation with the chairs to confirm what is wanted
15:35:44 ... get some context on previous primers
15:35:57 Topic: EME bugs
15:36:23 http://dvcs.w3.org/hg/html-media/raw-file/tip/encrypted-media/encrypted-media.html
15:36:36 paulc: David want to make any comments?
15:36:42 ddorwin: no -- sent an email
15:36:48 https://dvcs.w3.org/hg/html-media/raw-file/tip/encrypted-media/encrypted-media.html
15:37:25 Topic: FPWD
15:37:26 FPWD: http://www.w3.org/TR/2013/WD-encrypted-media-20130510/
15:37:39 Also, http://www.w3.org/TR/encrypted-media/
15:37:56 paulc: need to update the copyright to match the editors draft
15:38:19 Topic Outstanding Bugs
15:38:24 paulc: 30 of them
15:38:31 http://tinyurl.com/7tfambo
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15:39:00 paulc: there are is an active email thread on ACTION-11 -- should we spend time on that? or avoid it?
15:39:10 http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html-media/2013May/0068.html
15:39:14 I think it makes sense to talk about the ACTION-11 item
15:39:24 ddorwin: marks email since there has been discussion
15:39:45 paulc: intro to ACTION-11?
15:40:15 markw: proposal was to define what might happen if CDM data is not available to the JS apis
15:40:42 ... we know there will be CDMs that takes advantage of HW and data will not be available
15:40:49 ... may be cases where it will be available
15:40:59 ... need to define behavior when the data is not available
15:41:08 ... two cases - audio and video
15:41:35 ... Canvas could be used to access video data with getImageData to get raw YUV or RGBa data from Canvas
15:42:01 ... with audio there is a Media Source Element source mode
15:42:11 ... can do the processing for the audio node
15:42:18 ... get back the raw PCM bytes
15:42:46 ... could have the original APIs behave as if there was no media -- probably most likely to be implemented
15:43:06 ... drawIimage would do nothing, Media Element source mode would act as if there is no audio
15:43:18 s/drawIimage/drawImage/
15:43:41 markw: could image another scenario where they work but just not for the EME data
15:43:42 Q: shouldn't the JS application be able to inform the user that video/audio is not available because it is protected?
15:43:54 markw: would be much more complicated
15:44:07 ... maybe we should not exclude this possibility
15:44:09 q?
15:44:11 q+
15:44:41 markw: maybe we just need to document this behavior?
15:44:48 ack adrian
15:45:13 adrianba: since we won't be able to definitely describe the behavior for all possible APIs now and in the future for EME
15:45:28 ... we should make this informative following the principle Mark outlined
15:45:36 ... would act as if no data was available
15:45:47 ... maybe we can use the Canvas and audio as examples
15:46:04 ... let APIs define there own behavior based on this principle
15:46:12 What adrian says makes sense to me
15:46:17