16:49:21 RRSAgent has joined #ua 16:49:21 logging to http://www.w3.org/2013/05/09-ua-irc 16:49:23 RRSAgent, make logs public 16:49:23 Zakim has joined #ua 16:49:25 Zakim, this will be WAI_UAWG 16:49:25 ok, trackbot; I see WAI_UAWG()1:00PM scheduled to start in 11 minutes 16:49:26 Meeting: User Agent Accessibility Guidelines Working Group Teleconference 16:49:26 Date: 09 May 2013 16:50:52 agenda+ Timelines for the charter 16:50:53 agenda+ Scheduling a subgroup to work on implementations for level A 16:50:55 agenda+ Definition for levels 16:50:56 survey: https://www.w3.org/2002/09/wbs/36791/20130430/ 16:50:58 agenda+ Testing sub-group 16:51:00 agenda+ scheduling a Face to Face 16:51:01 agenda+ Change to TPAC dates now at 11-15 November in China 16:51:18 regrets: Jim 16:51:23 rrsagent, make minutes 16:51:23 I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2013/05/09-ua-minutes.html kford 16:53:29 WAI_UAWG()1:00PM has now started 16:53:36 + +1.425.883.aaaa 16:56:23 zakim, 1.425.883.aaaa is kford 16:56:23 sorry, kford, I do not recognize a party named '1.425.883.aaaa' 16:56:50 sharper has joined #ua 16:59:08 Greg has joined #ua 16:59:22 +Jeanne 17:00:52 jeanne has joined #ua 17:01:00 +Greg_Lowney 17:01:01 zakim, who is here? 17:01:02 On the phone I see +1.425.883.aaaa, Jeanne, Greg_Lowney 17:01:02 On IRC I see jeanne, Greg, sharper, Zakim, RRSAgent, kford, trackbot 17:01:25 zakim, aaaa is kford 17:01:25 +kford; got it 17:04:14 +??P7 17:04:20 zakim, ??P7 is sharper 17:04:20 +sharper; got it 17:04:40 Jan has joined #ua 17:04:59 zakim, code? 17:04:59 the conference code is 82941 (tel:+1.617.761.6200 sip:zakim@voip.w3.org), Jan 17:06:16 +??P8 17:06:18 zakim, agenda? 17:06:18 I see 6 items remaining on the agenda: 17:06:19 1. Timelines for the charter [from kford] 17:06:19 2. Scheduling a subgroup to work on implementations for level A [from kford] 17:06:19 3. Definition for levels [from kford] 17:06:19 4. Testing sub-group [from kford] 17:06:19 5. scheduling a Face to Face [from kford] 17:06:19 6. Change to TPAC dates now at 11-15 November in China [from kford] 17:06:20 chair: Kford 17:06:38 zakim, P8 is Jan 17:06:38 sorry, jeanne, I do not recognize a party named 'P8' 17:06:51 zakim, ??p8 is Jan 17:06:51 +Jan; got it 17:06:57 zakim, take up item 1 17:06:57 agendum 1. "Timelines for the charter" taken up [from kford] 17:08:42 http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/w3c-wai-ua/2013AprJun/0042.html 17:08:46 scribe: Greg 17:09:09 JS: Tried to summarize conversation of last week and convert to math. 17:09:17 + +1.609.734.aabb 17:09:48 http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/w3c-wai-ua/2013AprJun/0042.html 17:11:59 JS: Each 3 day F2F is estimated to reduce the timeline to CR by about 3 months. 17:12:19 http://www.w3.org/WAI/UA/2013/draft_uawg_charter.html 17:13:01 JS: (The milestones haven't yet been updated in that document.) 17:13:58 JS: This gives us a year to push and get ready to start testing. 17:14:41 Eric has joined #ua 17:14:53 JS: Needs people to review this proposed timeline: FPWD 2008-03, LC 2013-07, CR 2015-05, PR 2016-04, Rec 2016-06. 17:15:24 SH: Surprised, thought we were closer to the end. How does this compare with other projects like ATAG? 17:15:40 JS: Comparable to other WAI standards, but slower than many non-WAI standards. 17:16:17 JR: Agreed, but WAI work has a different dynamic than other standards, because companies trying to promote something to standard can throw larger amounts of resources at it. 17:16:48 JS: Also, often technical standards have less non-technical factors to consider. 17:17:37 SH: How much are we expected to change things after last call? Worried that people comment and then we seem to redesign the guidelines from scratch. 17:18:56 JS: Complicated issue, but once we got to last call we're staying we think we're done. We should have been getting feedback from companies etc. all along, but in reality we haven't. Will they continue to ignore it, or will they seriously look at it only at that point and overwhelm us with new (later) feedback? 17:19:26 JS: We hope to make as few changes as possible after last call. Jan has done fantastic job of expediting ATAG comments, but they do take time. 17:20:29 KF: Big concern is depending on both F2Fs happening to make the progress we're committed to. Any other way to shorten the conversations we have? 17:20:45 JS: Perhaps, but we need buy-in from everyone. 17:21:11 JS: If we don't get a lot of comments, we could be done much faster than this timeline. 17:21:47 JR: Thinks this timeline is ambitious, definitely not slow. 17:22:53 JR: CR is pretty far along. The point of this is to align thinking of browsers on what should be done in browsers, so schedule of getting to Rec is less important. 17:23:50 JS: Would like to send UAAG SC to groups discussing specific browser behaviors, like maintaining point of regard, but has more weight if it's CR. 17:24:49 SH: If everything goes more smoothly, can we proceed faster than this? 17:25:14 JS: Certainly. 17:26:13 GL: Do we have to give warning before moving up the deadlines? 17:26:34 JS: No requirements around that. 17:27:27 KF: Hope that we can get done a lot sooner. 17:27:43 zakim, ageneda? 17:27:43 I don't understand your question, kford. 17:27:48 zakim, agenda? 17:27:49 I see 6 items remaining on the agenda: 17:27:49 1. Timelines for the charter [from kford] 17:27:49 2. Scheduling a subgroup to work on implementations for level A [from kford] 17:27:49 3. Definition for levels [from kford] 17:27:50 4. Testing sub-group [from kford] 17:27:50 5. scheduling a Face to Face [from kford] 17:27:50 6. Change to TPAC dates now at 11-15 November in China [from kford] 17:28:02 General agreement that we can live with this, and hope to get done sooner. 17:28:03 Resolved: Group agrees to Jeanne's proposal 17:28:14 zakim, close item 1 17:28:14 agendum 1, Timelines for the charter, closed 17:28:15 I see 5 items remaining on the agenda; the next one is 17:28:15 2. Scheduling a subgroup to work on implementations for level A [from kford] 17:28:26 Resolution: Groups agrees to the proposed timelines for the charter. 17:28:48 zakim, take up item 2 17:28:48 agendum 2. "Scheduling a subgroup to work on implementations for level A" taken up [from kford] 17:29:38 KF: Hearing concern about number of Level A SC. 17:30:44 JS: Looking for help filling out priority sheet, with just the column of how many implementations exist. This is Judy's suggestion for dealing with the number of Level A's we have, being able to point out that some high percentage are already implemented in the marketplace. However, our column is only about half filled out at this point. 17:31:51 JS: Would people be available before next call, say 10 AM EST or Monday or Friday afternoons? 17:32:31 Friday (tomorrow 10th at 1:00 EDT) 17:32:45 Jan, Kelly, and Greg can join Jeanne at 1 PM EST tomorrow. 17:33:10 GL: Logistics for bridge, IRC? 17:33:13 zakim, room for 4 tomorrow at 13:00? 17:33:15 ok, jeanne; conference Team_(ua)17:00Z scheduled with code 82942 (uawg2) tomorrow at 13:00 for 60 minutes until 1800Z 17:33:39 Code tomorrow will be 82942 17:33:43 zakim, close item 2 17:33:43 agendum 2, Scheduling a subgroup to work on implementations for level A, closed 17:33:45 I see 4 items remaining on the agenda; the next one is 17:33:45 3. Definition for levels [from kford] 17:33:53 zakim, take up item 3 17:33:53 agendum 3. "Definition for levels" taken up [from kford] 17:34:21 http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/w3c-wai-ua/2013AprJun/0043.html 17:35:09 JS: Emailed proposal for action 827 about proposal for definitions of levels. Greg sent email with good comments. 17:35:26 JS: Didn't have much time to work on this but discussed briefly with Greg this morning. 17:36:54 JS: Greg pointed out that the language used in defining the levels would leave out some SC. 17:37:56 JS: Added the sentence "To avoid over-complication, the various combinations of factors were separated into 3 levels:" 17:38:24 JS: For Level A, changed "and" to "and/or" to make it more inclusive. 17:41:09 JS: Forwarding to the list the document that Greg emailed her. 17:41:11 http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/w3c-wai-ua/2013AprJun/0044.html 17:44:02 The six factors, summarized: 17:44:04 1. How important is it for accessibility? 17:44:05 2. Will compliance hurt or inconvenience any population? (If the feature is significantly detrimental to some users, ensure it is worded so they can avoid it, or make it a recommendation rather than a requirement.) 17:44:07 3. Is it always possible? (If it is not always possible, be sure to include appropriate exceptions in the wording, or else make it a recommendation rather than a requirement.) 17:44:08 4. Can it be objectively measurable? (If it cannot be objectively measured at reasonable expense, it should be a recommendation rather than a requirement.) 17:44:10 5. How difficult is it to implement? (If it is so difficult or costly that it would have a severe detrimental effect on the company or other users, consider making it a recommendation rather than a requirement.) 17:44:11 6. When is compliance likely? (If we cannot expect at least two products to comply in a reasonable time frame, make it a recommendation or future requirement. If it is already widespread enough to be expected, and the other criteria are met, consider making it a requirement even if is not of high importance.) 17:49:20 EH: Responded in last week's survey and proposed rewording, which should be taken into account. 17:49:45 https://www.w3.org/2002/09/wbs/36791/20130430/results 17:50:05 GL: The document has good wording on factors taken into account, but would need significant editing to create summary paragraphs for each level. 17:51:05 Eric's proposal: 17:51:07 The three levels of UAAG2 conformance (described above) are based on based on the level (A, AA, or AAA) designations of the more than 100 success criteria (i.e., specific requirements). The description of each success criterion in this document shows that designation. In making these designations, the UAWG considered both the impact of the success criterion of individuals with disabilities as well 17:51:07 as the likely degree of technical challenge in satisfying the success criteria. 17:51:15 ... The level A designation was given to success criteria for which failure to satisfy would block access for one or more groups of individuals with disabilities. [Eric comment: Isn't the blocking of access for level A SCs much more essential aspect than technical challenge? If seems to me that while some of the level A SCs "are relatively minor for developers to solve", others are not. In a sense, 17:51:15 if it would block access we do we really care if it is hard or easy to solve?] 17:51:25 ... The level AA designation was given to success criteria where failure to satisfy would make access difficult for one or more disability groups and where the technical challenge in satisfying would be moderate or easier. 17:51:35 ... The level AA designation was given to success criteria where failure to satisfy would make access difficult for one or more disability groups and where the technical challenge in satisfying would likely be large. 17:52:47 EH: Thought Level A could focus entirely on impact, ignoring difficulty of implementation. Level AA would present difficulties for some users but would require moderate or less level of effort, while AAA would present difficulties but would be a major effort to address. Trying to simplify it a bit. 17:54:19 GL: I don't think we can make things Level A if they're impossible for most user agents to implement, as it would probably end up causing the standard to be ignored. 17:57:36 EH: Aren't all SC supposed to be objectively measurable, regardless of level? 17:58:27 EH: If an SC isn't testable, should perhaps be removed from the document. 17:58:46 EH: Impact plus difficulty of implementation could be the two key factors used in determining levels. 18:00:09 JS: Proposed postponing this until next week, work on it using Greg's and Eric's input. 18:00:24 KF: How do we get to closing this next week? 18:00:55 JR: Chair's job to speak up when they feel things are getting out of hand. 18:01:20 KF: Would really like to finish this next week. Make motivated effort to bring to the list of Jeanne soon if you have input. 18:01:29 JR: Keep in mind it's informative only. 18:02:41 GL: But last week it was pointed out if we're too specific it would allow level assignments to be challenged. 18:03:13 JR: True. We should not bee to specific or imply the factors and assignment practices are objective. 18:03:28 There are many different types of disabilities and different types of user agents, so the UAAG level assigned to a success criterion may not precisely match the definition of the level in all circumstances. 18:03:54 EH: Jan's simpler approach might be better. 18:04:22 JS: Need to define levels; Judy is always asked by governments how these are defined. 18:04:54 JR: Very hard, which is why ATAG didn't try to do so. If you have strong criteria and didn't live up to them entirely, will get challenged. 18:05:47 KF: No matter how good we are, we'll find places where we didn't exactly conform to our criteria, and also open up to people disagreeing with the criteria. 18:06:01 zakim, close item 3 18:06:01 agendum 3, Definition for levels, closed 18:06:02 I see 3 items remaining on the agenda; the next one is 18:06:02 4. Testing sub-group [from kford] 18:06:12 JS: Being able to promote UAAG in the long run outweighs criticism in the short run. 18:06:15 zakim, take up item 4 18:06:15 agendum 4. "Testing sub-group" taken up [from kford] 18:06:46 KimPatch has joined #ua 18:07:12 zakim, take up uitem 4 18:07:12 I don't understand 'take up uitem 4', kford 18:07:19 zakim, take up item 4 18:07:19 agendum 4. "Testing sub-group" taken up [from kford] 18:07:35 +Kim_Patch 18:08:38 KF: Talked about it a few times, several people expressed interest, anyone feeling like leading this? 18:10:25 - +1.609.734.aabb 18:11:40 JR: Can look like pseudo-code. 18:13:05 JR is using as an example the SC on background image toggle (2.11.1). 18:13:52 Test 0001 Assertion: If the authoring tool contains editing-views that render visual time-based content, then those editing-views can be paused and can be set to not play automatically 18:13:52 If the authoring tool cannot be used to edit time-based content such as video, animation, animated gifs etc., then select SKIP 18:13:52 If the authoring tool does not include editing views that render visual time-based content such as video, animation, animated gifs etc., then select SKIP 18:13:53 If the renderings are non-editable, such as previews, then select SKIP. 18:13:53 For each editing view that renders and plays visual time-based content: 18:13:53 Load sample video (audio, animation, animated gifs etc.) 18:13:53 If the editing view does not automatically play time-based content automatically, then go the next editing view that renders and plays visual time-based content (if any). 18:13:54 If the authoring tool can be set to never play time-based content automatically AND once playing the content can be paused, then go the next editing view that renders and plays visual time-based content (if any). 18:13:54 If the editing view is web-based and the browser can be used to prevent auto-play and to pause the playing content then go the next editing view that renders and plays visual time-based content (if any). 18:13:54 Go the next editing view that renders and plays visual time-based content (if any). 18:13:55 SelectPASS (all editing views must have passed) 18:15:52 (The above example would be more easily understood if the paragraph numbers had copied and pasted.) 18:16:04 http://www.w3.org/WAI/AU/2013/ATAG2-10April2012PublicWD-Tests 18:16:24 Test 0001 Assertion: Authors can choose from a set of in-market user agents for previews. 18:16:25 Determine from the user interface, online help, or documentation that the application provides a preview function. If no preview mode exists, then select SKIP. 18:16:27 Note: A preview is non-editable view of how the content would appear to end users of user agents. 18:16:28 If authors can specify which user agent (of those installed on their system that can render the content technology in question) is to be used to perform the preview, then select PASS. 18:16:30 Otherwise, select FAIL. 18:18:27 JR: Did most of ATAG. Had a few tweaks but few long arguments about the tests themselves. 18:19:19 JR: Just getting people to come to meetings and attest to the fact they'd read the proposed tests was difficult. 18:19:49 SH: Concerned that if we write the tests, then end up changing SC, we have to rewrite completed tests. 18:20:09 SH: Seems doing tests like this for our SC would be reasonable, it they don't have to be redone repeatedly. 18:20:47 zakim, agenda? 18:20:47 I see 3 items remaining on the agenda: 18:20:48 4. Testing sub-group [from kford] 18:20:48 5. scheduling a Face to Face [from kford] 18:20:48 6. Change to TPAC dates now at 11-15 November in China [from kford] 18:20:49 JS: Considering integrating tests into the main document so if we tweak an SC we can tweak the test at the same time. 18:21:09 SH: Will do some tests for 1.1 in the next few weeks, to see how difficult it is. 18:21:33 JR: Can try to find some time to identify where we can reuse tests already written for ATAG. 18:22:53 JS: Note that all occurrences of "SKIP" will be changed to "NOT APPLICABLE"; it was originally written for a different tool. 18:23:24 zakim, close item 4 18:23:24 agendum 4, Testing sub-group, closed 18:23:25 I see 2 items remaining on the agenda; the next one is 18:23:25 5. scheduling a Face to Face [from kford] 18:23:36 zakim, take up item 5 18:23:36 agendum 5. "scheduling a Face to Face" taken up [from kford] 18:24:46 JS: Everyone was going to check their schedules regarding second week of July. 18:30:36 July 23-25 (Tues-Thurs) 18:31:53 The group had a possible conflicts on 2nd and 3rd weeks of July, but considering 4th week of July. 18:32:42 http://www.sigaccess.org/assets13/ 18:32:45 SH: What about doing something around the ACM Assets conference in Seattle October 21-23? 18:33:35 JS: Unfortunately that's close to the TPAC in China, where we hope to have a F2F. 18:33:56 TPAC in CHina is November 10-15 18:34:04 zakim, agenda? 18:34:04 I see 2 items remaining on the agenda: 18:34:05 5. scheduling a Face to Face [from kford] 18:34:05 6. Change to TPAC dates now at 11-15 November in China [from kford] 18:34:18 -sharper 18:34:24 sharper has left #ua 18:34:26 -Jan 18:34:28 rrsagent, make minutes' 18:34:28 I'm logging. I don't understand 'make minutes'', jeanne. Try /msg RRSAgent help 18:34:35 rrsagent, make minutes 18:34:35 I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2013/05/09-ua-minutes.html jeanne 18:35:03 zakim, bye 18:35:03 leaving. As of this point the attendees were +1.425.883.aaaa, Jeanne, Greg_Lowney, kford, sharper, Jan, +1.609.734.aabb, Kim_Patch 18:35:03 Zakim has left #ua 18:36:22 zakim, bye 18:36:44 rrsagent, make minutes 18:36:44 I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2013/05/09-ua-minutes.html jeanne 18:37:47 zakim, who is here? 18:40:28 present+ Eric 18:40:55 present- +1.425.883.aaaa, +1.609.734.aabb 18:41:01 rrsagent, make minutes 18:41:01 I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2013/05/09-ua-minutes.html jeanne 18:43:53 rrsagent, bye 18:43:53 I see no action items