IRC log of html-a11y on 2013-05-09

Timestamps are in UTC.

14:53:10 [RRSAgent]
RRSAgent has joined #html-a11y
14:53:10 [RRSAgent]
logging to
14:53:12 [trackbot]
RRSAgent, make logs world
14:53:12 [Zakim]
Zakim has joined #html-a11y
14:53:14 [trackbot]
Zakim, this will be 2119
14:53:14 [Zakim]
ok, trackbot; I see WAI_PFWG(HTML TF)10:00AM scheduled to start 53 minutes ago
14:53:15 [trackbot]
Meeting: HTML Accessibility Task Force Teleconference
14:53:15 [trackbot]
Date: 09 May 2013
14:53:35 [janina]
Meeting: HTML-A11Y Task Force Teleconference
14:53:35 [janina]
Chair: Janina_Sajka
14:53:35 [janina]
agenda+ Identify Scribe
14:53:38 [janina]
agenda+ Table Markup Redux
14:53:40 [janina]
agenda+ HTML5 testing
14:53:43 [janina]
agenda+ Media Transcript
14:53:45 [janina]
agenda+ Text Bugs (Continued)
14:53:48 [janina]
agenda+ Subteam Reports: Bug Triage; AAPI Mapping;
14:53:50 [janina]
agenda+ Wiki, TF pages, similar administrative items
14:53:53 [janina]
agenda+ (Overdue) Actions Review
14:53:56 [janina]
agenda+ Other Business
14:53:58 [janina]
agenda+ Identify Scribe for the next TF teleconference
14:54:01 [janina]
agenda+ be done
14:54:18 [janina]
zakim, take up item 1
14:54:18 [Zakim]
agendum 1. "Identify Scribe" taken up [from janina]
14:55:51 [Zakim]
WAI_PFWG(HTML TF)10:00AM has now started
14:55:58 [Zakim]
14:56:05 [janina]
zakim, ??P8 is me
14:56:05 [Zakim]
+janina; got it
14:57:19 [IanPouncey]
IanPouncey has joined #html-a11y
14:57:32 [Mark]
Mark has joined #html-a11y
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st has joined #html-a11y
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15:02:17 [Zakim]
15:02:29 [Mark]
zakim, +Jeanne is MichaelC
15:02:29 [Zakim]
sorry, Mark, I do not recognize a party named '+Jeanne'
15:02:52 [Mark]
zakim, Jeanne is MichaelC
15:02:52 [Zakim]
+MichaelC; got it
15:03:08 [MichaelC]
MichaelC has joined #html-a11y
15:03:08 [LJWatson]
zakim, [IPcaller] is LJWatson
15:03:08 [Zakim]
+LJWatson; got it
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hober has joined #html-a11y
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Zakim, Apple is me
15:03:59 [Zakim]
+hober; got it
15:04:03 [Zakim]
+ +1.201.785.aaaa
15:04:14 [Mark]
scribe: Mark Sadecki
15:04:18 [Mark]
scribeNick: MarkS
15:04:31 [Suzanne_T]
785 is me
15:04:42 [MichaelC]
zakim, aaaa is Suzanne_Taylor
15:04:43 [Zakim]
+Suzanne_Taylor; got it
15:04:50 [richardschwerdtfeger]
richardschwerdtfeger has joined #html-a11y
15:05:09 [Mark]
zakim, agenda?
15:05:09 [Zakim]
I see 11 items remaining on the agenda:
15:05:11 [Zakim]
1. Identify Scribe [from janina]
15:05:11 [Zakim]
2. Table Markup Redux [from janina]
15:05:11 [Zakim]
3. HTML5 testing [from janina]
15:05:11 [Zakim]
4. Media Transcript [from janina]
15:05:11 [Zakim]
5. Text Bugs (Continued) [from janina]
15:05:11 [Zakim]
6. Subteam Reports: Bug Triage; AAPI Mapping; [from janina]
15:05:12 [Zakim]
7. Wiki, TF pages, similar administrative items [from janina]
15:05:13 [Zakim]
8. (Overdue) Actions Review [from janina]
15:05:13 [Zakim]
9. Other Business [from janina]
15:05:13 [Zakim]
10. Identify Scribe for the next TF teleconference [from janina]
15:05:13 [Zakim]
11. be done [from janina]
15:06:01 [Mark]
zakim, item 3
15:06:02 [Zakim]
I don't understand 'item 3', Mark
15:06:07 [Mark]
zakim, take up item 3
15:06:08 [Zakim]
agendum 3. "HTML5 testing" taken up [from janina]
15:06:09 [Zakim]
15:06:19 [richardschwerdtfeger]
zakim, ??P26 is Rich
15:06:20 [Zakim]
+Rich; got it
15:06:22 [Zakim]
15:06:23 [Zakim]
15:06:41 [Mark]
JS: any thoughts we should consider before diving in and testing HTML spec
15:07:14 [chaals]
zakim, ??P28 is me
15:07:14 [Zakim]
+chaals; got it
15:07:34 [SteveF]
SteveF has joined #html-a11y
15:07:45 [Mark]
…recap. HTML WG walked the entire spec, outlining what needed to be tested and what could be passed, emphasis on getting out of CR. If feature was widely supported, it need not be tested.
15:07:55 [Mark]
…possibly a good approach for us
15:08:33 [Mark]
…identify features that are well supported, like ALT, there are at least two browsers that support it successfully.
15:08:57 [Zakim]
15:09:01 [Mark]
…in the relatively near future, perhaps we should walk through the spec to identify things that need to be tested
15:09:17 [Mark]
JF: it took HTML WG a minimum of 3 hours to do that at the F2F.
15:09:24 [Mark]
…we would have to carve out a time to do that.
15:09:40 [chaals]
q+ to suggest we do the run-through in a TF (ideally triage TF IMHO...)
15:09:45 [Mark]
…should we try to setup two 90 minute sessions at a different time to accomplish something like this.
15:09:54 [Mark]
JS: we did this before and that is the approach we took.
15:10:00 [Mark]
…spec is long
15:10:16 [Mark]
…not eager to do this in the coming month, but perhaps in the next couple months.
15:10:22 [chaals]
15:10:33 [Mark]
15:10:35 [Zakim]
15:10:46 [Mark]
JS: is this not the way to proceed?
15:11:14 [Mark]
…no objections. will try to schedule in the coming weeks
15:11:19 [Mark]
zakim, take up item 2
15:11:19 [Zakim]
agendum 2. "Table Markup Redux" taken up [from janina]
15:11:44 [chaals]
zakim, ??p28 is Rich
15:11:44 [Zakim]
I already had ??P28 as chaals, chaals
15:11:54 [chaals]
zakim, chaals is Rich
15:11:54 [Zakim]
+Rich; got it
15:11:55 [Mark]
JS: HTML markup for rowgroup does not seem to be in the spec.
15:12:16 [SteveF]
Rich is in the house
15:12:32 [Mark]
RS: what happened for whatever reason is that Firefox introduced rowgroup, into the API mappings. Turns out they were doing this for thead to have a rowgroup.
15:12:40 [Zakim]
15:12:47 [Mark]
…looked at native semantics in HTML5 and it wasn't even in the list.
15:12:56 [Mark]
JF: was wondering about colgroup?
15:13:05 [chaals]
zakim, [ipcaller is me
15:13:05 [Zakim]
+chaals; got it
15:13:21 [Mark]
RS: ARIA doesn't currently have rowgroup, but could add colgroup to ARIA 1.1
15:13:41 [Mark]
15:13:49 [janina]
15:14:01 [Mark]
CS: does it matter?
15:14:27 [Mark]
RS: Firefox wanted to have everything for what they have in HTML5
15:14:35 [Mark]
…that is how it showed up.
15:14:48 [SteveF]
15:14:50 [Mark]
CS: how big of a deal is this? is it a necessary thing.
15:14:58 [Mark]
JF: thead, or rowgroup?
15:15:04 [Mark]
CS: rowgroup
15:15:11 [Mark]
RS: what does thead map to?
15:15:28 [Mark]
CS: it can change the mapping of its children, but otherwise not specified
15:15:55 [Mark]
JF: i think you could fix the position of thead and tfoot and scroll the body of the table
15:16:13 [Mark]
…could be good for mobile
15:16:23 [Mark]
JS: i think we negotiated this back in 2008
15:16:34 [Mark]
15:16:37 [janina]
15:16:46 [janina]
ack st
15:17:12 [Mark]
SF: IE does not expose even a TR, at least not in MSAA
15:17:45 [Mark]
RS: firefox added a rowgroup role in. not sure what their motivation was.
15:17:51 [Mark]
…thought they needed it for thead
15:17:56 [janina]
ack m
15:18:55 [janina]
15:18:56 [Mark]
JF: has anyone talked to dbolter?
15:19:09 [Mark]
RS: they wanted to have every HTML element to have a mapping.
15:20:01 [Mark]
JF: rowgroup has been around for a really long time. perhaps they just wanted to get everything in there. is there anything we really need to do?
15:20:11 [Mark]
RS: do we want to do that consistently across the platforms.
15:20:26 [Mark]
CS: MSAA is not supposed to have random strings in the role.
15:20:37 [Mark]
RS: you can do it in UiA
15:20:44 [janina]
15:20:46 [Mark]
CS: yes
15:21:34 [Mark]
JS: suggest Rich ask the HTML WG to ask if there was a working group decision or approach to implement this, or if they were on their own.
15:21:41 [SteveF]
15:21:45 [Mark]
RS: from what I understand, they were on their own.
15:22:12 [Mark]
RS: we have a table mapping HTML elements in ARIA that never included these elements. Was this an oversight?
15:22:25 [Mark]
CS: maybe they weren't in the spec at that time.
15:22:28 [janina]
ack st
15:22:54 [Mark]
SF: thead has never been taken out of spec, nor tbody. I don't understand what is being asked? what are we suggesting the HTML WG do in regards to rowgroup?
15:23:50 [Mark]
…sounds to me like you have elements that group rows and we have mappings to them in Firefox, but this cannot me addressed in the HTML spec.
15:23:59 [janina]
15:24:29 [Mark]
JF: whether or not we have a way of expressing these elements to the API? i would say yes… but don't know if there is a semantic that we can use.
15:24:43 [Suzanne_T]
html 4 allowed scope="rowgroup" for a header scope
15:24:51 [Mark]
CS: if it can be done in UiA it can be done for all the elements in HTML
15:25:16 [janina]
15:25:19 [Mark]
RS: what we have to do is 2 things: any elements that are missing in the table, we need to define an ARIA semantic for
15:25:34 [Mark]
…next we have to decided what the user agent has to do with it. toss it away, or use it.
15:25:53 [Mark]
…there are elements in the HTML 5 spec that don't have native host semantics.
15:26:08 [Mark]
…happy to let the browsers decide what they want to do with rowgroup.
15:26:31 [Mark]
…cynthia if you have a thead, would you expose the scrollable interface control pattern?
15:26:42 [Mark]
CS: good idea, not sure if that is how its implemented.
15:27:00 [Mark]
RS: either way you would want to have the user agent tell the API what it is
15:27:12 [Mark]
…scrollable or not, doesn't really matter from my perspective.
15:27:18 [Mark]
JF: sounds reasonable.
15:27:47 [Mark]
RS: you need to have a look through HTML5 to find elements that don't have host language semantics.
15:28:03 [SteveF]
15:28:15 [Zakim]
15:28:21 [Zakim]
15:28:25 [Mark]
…user agent implementation needs to add support for these
15:28:41 [Mark]
ack steveF
15:28:59 [SteveF]
15:29:28 [Mark]
SF: using ARIA in HTML doc. list of all the HTML elements. second column defines which ones have ARIA mapping or not.
15:29:50 [Mark]
…some have multiple elements in them. all elements should be there.
15:30:04 [Mark]
RS: transfer this to HTML5 spec
15:30:16 [Mark]
SF: i've been arguing for this.
15:30:26 [Mark]
…will get it done
15:30:35 [Mark]
JS: should we create a bug?
15:30:49 [Mark]
SF: yes, that is what should be done.
15:31:21 [Mark]
…it shouldn't be a high traffic bug.
15:31:39 [SteveF]
15:33:14 [Mark]
RS: I will file the bug.
15:34:17 [Mark]
JS: lets put a TF keyword in there.
15:35:44 [richardschwerdtfeger]
15:36:39 [Mark]
zakim, agenda?
15:36:39 [Zakim]
I see 11 items remaining on the agenda:
15:36:40 [Zakim]
1. Identify Scribe [from janina]
15:36:40 [Zakim]
2. Table Markup Redux [from janina]
15:36:40 [Zakim]
3. HTML5 testing [from janina]
15:36:40 [Zakim]
4. Media Transcript [from janina]
15:36:40 [Zakim]
5. Text Bugs (Continued) [from janina]
15:36:40 [Zakim]
6. Subteam Reports: Bug Triage; AAPI Mapping; [from janina]
15:36:41 [Zakim]
7. Wiki, TF pages, similar administrative items [from janina]
15:36:42 [Zakim]
8. (Overdue) Actions Review [from janina]
15:36:42 [Zakim]
9. Other Business [from janina]
15:36:42 [Zakim]
10. Identify Scribe for the next TF teleconference [from janina]
15:36:42 [Zakim]
11. be done [from janina]
15:36:47 [Mark]
zakim, next item
15:36:47 [Zakim]
agendum 1. "Identify Scribe" taken up [from janina]
15:36:54 [Mark]
zakim, next item
15:36:54 [Zakim]
agendum 1 was just opened, Mark
15:36:54 [chaals]
zakim, close item 1
15:36:55 [Zakim]
agendum 1, Identify Scribe, closed
15:36:55 [Zakim]
I see 9 items remaining on the agenda; the next one is
15:36:55 [Zakim]
3. HTML5 testing [from janina]
15:37:03 [Mark]
zakim, take up item 4
15:37:03 [Zakim]
agendum 4. "Media Transcript" taken up [from janina]
15:37:15 [Mark]
JS: is this for 5.0 or 5.1?
15:37:46 [Mark]
JF: writing an extension spec that has no support from browser vendors isn't very productive.
15:37:50 [chaals]
zakim, close item 1
15:37:50 [chaals]
zakim, close item 2
15:37:50 [chaals]
zakim, close item 3
15:37:50 [chaals]
zakim, agenda?
15:37:50 [Zakim]
agendum 1, Identify Scribe, closed
15:37:52 [Zakim]
I see 9 items remaining on the agenda; the next one is
15:37:52 [Zakim]
3. HTML5 testing [from janina]
15:37:52 [Zakim]
agendum 2, Table Markup Redux, closed
15:37:52 [Zakim]
I see 9 items remaining on the agenda; the next one is
15:37:52 [Zakim]
3. HTML5 testing [from janina]
15:37:52 [Zakim]
agendum 3, HTML5 testing, closed
15:37:53 [Zakim]
I see 8 items remaining on the agenda; the next one is
15:37:53 [Zakim]
4. Media Transcript [from janina]
15:37:53 [Zakim]
I see 8 items remaining on the agenda:
15:37:53 [Zakim]
4. Media Transcript [from janina]
15:37:54 [Zakim]
5. Text Bugs (Continued) [from janina]
15:37:54 [Zakim]
6. Subteam Reports: Bug Triage; AAPI Mapping; [from janina]
15:37:54 [Zakim]
7. Wiki, TF pages, similar administrative items [from janina]
15:37:54 [Zakim]
8. (Overdue) Actions Review [from janina]
15:37:55 [Zakim]
9. Other Business [from janina]
15:37:55 [Zakim]
10. Identify Scribe for the next TF teleconference [from janina]
15:37:55 [Zakim]
11. be done [from janina]
15:38:11 [Mark]
…i plan on reaching out to the vendors. perhaps we can have a meeting and prepare something to present to them.
15:38:17 [Mark]
…i think this is a 5.1 item
15:38:32 [Mark]
JS: ok, lets bring the Media sup-team back into action.
15:38:44 [Mark]
15:39:31 [Mark]
zakim, close item 4
15:39:31 [Zakim]
agendum 4, Media Transcript, closed
15:39:32 [Zakim]
I see 7 items remaining on the agenda; the next one is
15:39:32 [Zakim]
5. Text Bugs (Continued) [from janina]
15:40:21 [chaals]
scribe: chaals
15:40:46 [Mark]
15:40:47 [chaals]
MS: 2 bugs came up in Triage that we want to bring to TF
15:41:13 [chaals]
… 9485: Requiring conformance checkers to refer to WCAG regarding alternative text stuff.
15:41:54 [chaals]
… There is a bug from Martin Leihm, Henri Sivonen says there is no reason for teh spec to micromanage the UI of tools.
15:41:59 [chaals]
… Triage felt this could not be tracked, and should be re-assigned to validator product.
15:41:59 [chaals]
15:42:05 [chaals]
.. ideas?
15:42:22 [chaals]
Steve: You could file a bug on the validator.
15:42:26 [chaals]
JS: Is this one we want to pursue?
15:42:33 [chaals]
LW: Don't think so.
15:42:42 [chaals]
SF: Don't think so
15:42:44 [Zakim]
15:42:51 [chaals]
JS: How do you assess quality heurisitically?
15:43:10 [chaals]
LW: Think this bug was filed when the spec was weaker on accessibility.
15:43:10 [chaals]
JS: agree.
15:43:10 [chaals]
15:43:19 [chaals]
15:43:39 [Mark]
15:44:04 [chaals]
RESOLUTION: close 9485 Rejected.
15:44:04 [chaals]
MS: 13451 - Don't disallow image maps on object.
15:44:13 [chaals]
… refers to an object element containing an image map but the UA cannot / does not render images.
15:44:38 [chaals]
… note in spec says to refer to fallback content instead of alts in the image map.
15:44:42 [chaals]
… proposal was to remove the note. Hixie said that won't solve the issues.
15:45:07 [chaals]
… In processing, where images are disabled the fallback of object gets rendered, which ruins the ability to show the alternative content where itis an image map.
15:45:09 [chaals]
15:45:27 [chaals]
JF: Won't this be solved by the links being the content?
15:45:36 [chaals]
MS: No, this is the plaintext that follows the image.
15:45:49 [chaals]
… so the image gets removed from the tree.
15:46:03 [chaals]
JF: But you can still expose the links that are in the image map
15:46:09 [chaals]
MS: How do you do that if the image is removeed?
15:46:31 [chaals]
JF: Whether you see the image or not you can still find the links for the regions. They are somewhat independent.
15:46:47 [chaals]
… the links are there even when the imageis gone. How you render that I don't know, but it seem like a list of links.
15:46:53 [chaals]
15:47:02 [chaals]
… this is an issue of presentation vs structure.
15:47:27 [janina]
15:47:37 [chaals]
… if the images are disabled, the user still needs access to the links.
15:47:37 [janina]
ack ch
15:48:49 [Mark]
CMN: ability to use block content was removed from the spec and changed to something else. don't recall exactly how it was meant to work, but it is kind of strange.
15:49:11 [Mark]
…used to be able to build a map that was just some html that had some links in it.
15:49:28 [Mark]
…now you can add bits of html that show up as invisible block content.
15:49:49 [Mark]
…as i recall, you can still use area elements as fallback content and it would work.
15:50:26 [Mark]
…should we be happily going along with the new model, one of the issues I had at the time was that it wasn't properly implemented at the time, so we would need to test, or should be go back to the 4.0 model
15:50:45 [richardschwerdtfeger]
15:51:17 [Mark]
…the issue is if we go with HTML5 we need to change all the instructional material. which is going to be difficult.
15:51:19 [janina]
ack r
15:51:54 [Mark]
RS: what they were adding to canvas was support for having the same mouse handler on the same element that you had a keyboard handler. if you had an area element, you could bind that to the canvas.
15:52:17 [Mark]
s/RS: what they were adding to canvas was support for having the same mouse handler on the same element that you had a keyboard handler. if you had an area element, you could bind that to the canvas.//
15:52:27 [Mark]
JF: we need to do some testing.
15:52:34 [janina]
15:52:57 [Mark]
…+1 chaals on changing the educational piece. its not easy, but it is doable. and we need to capture the significance of that
15:53:39 [chaals]
q+ to offer to add this to the list of triage bugs I need to look at...
15:54:04 [janina]
ack ch
15:54:04 [Zakim]
chaals, you wanted to offer to add this to the list of triage bugs I need to look at...
15:54:43 [chaals]
ACTION: chaals to look into bug 13451
15:54:43 [trackbot]
Created ACTION-180 - Look into bug 13451 [on Charles McCathie Nevile - due 2013-05-16].
15:55:08 [Mark]
MS: keep original bug the same, but file a new bug on how the object element will handle images when browser cannot display images or has them disabled.
15:55:28 [Mark]
zakim, next item
15:55:28 [Zakim]
agendum 5. "Text Bugs (Continued)" taken up [from janina]
15:55:35 [Mark]
zakim, next item
15:55:35 [Zakim]
agendum 5 was just opened, Mark
15:55:55 [Mark]
zakim, take up item 6
15:55:55 [Zakim]
agendum 6. "Subteam Reports: Bug Triage; AAPI Mapping;" taken up [from janina]
15:56:02 [Mark]
zakim, take up item 7
15:56:02 [Zakim]
agendum 7. "Wiki, TF pages, similar administrative items" taken up [from janina]
15:56:42 [Mark]
MS: no more changes to wiki to date
15:56:48 [Mark]
zakim, next item
15:56:48 [Zakim]
agendum 7 was just opened, Mark
15:57:01 [Mark]
zakim, take up item 8
15:57:02 [Zakim]
agendum 8. "(Overdue) Actions Review" taken up [from janina]
15:57:28 [Mark]
CMN: If you received an email regarding open action items, please reply with a status update.
15:57:45 [Mark]
…i only looked at items that are more than 3 months overdue.
15:57:54 [Mark]
…i changed the date on one and closed some others.
15:58:27 [Mark]
JS: try to reduce the list.
15:58:53 [Mark]
CMN: a lot of these jobs are worth doing. most effective to have the assigned person take a look and decide what state they are in.
16:00:46 [Zakim]
16:00:46 [Zakim]
16:00:47 [Zakim]
16:00:47 [Zakim]
16:00:48 [Zakim]
16:00:48 [Zakim]
16:00:50 [Zakim]
16:00:50 [Zakim]
16:00:53 [Zakim]
16:01:04 [Mark]
16:02:33 [Mark]
zakim, close item 5
16:02:33 [Zakim]
agendum 5, Text Bugs (Continued), closed
16:02:34 [Zakim]
I see 6 items remaining on the agenda; the next one is
16:02:34 [Zakim]
6. Subteam Reports: Bug Triage; AAPI Mapping; [from janina]
16:02:58 [Mark]
zakim, clear agenda
16:02:58 [Zakim]
agenda cleared
16:03:23 [Mark]
rrsagent, make minutes
16:03:23 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate Mark
16:04:51 [Zakim]
16:04:51 [Zakim]
WAI_PFWG(HTML TF)10:00AM has ended
16:04:51 [Zakim]
Attendees were janina, John_Foliot, MarkS, MichaelC, LJWatson, hober, +1.201.785.aaaa, Suzanne_Taylor, Rich, Rich_Schwerdtfeger, Cynthia_Shelly, [IPcaller], chaals
16:22:30 [Mark]
rrsagent, make minutes
16:22:30 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate Mark
16:41:29 [IanPouncey]
IanPouncey has joined #html-a11y
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davidb has joined #html-a11y
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