IRC log of dnt on 2013-05-06

Timestamps are in UTC.

19:53:42 [RRSAgent]
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19:53:42 [RRSAgent]
logging to http://www.w3.org/2013/05/06-dnt-irc
19:53:46 [Zakim]
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19:54:56 [npdoty]
trackbot, start meeting
19:54:58 [trackbot]
RRSAgent, make logs world
19:55:00 [trackbot]
Zakim, this will be
19:55:00 [Zakim]
I don't understand 'this will be', trackbot
19:55:01 [trackbot]
Meeting: Tracking Protection Working Group Teleconference
19:55:01 [trackbot]
Date: 06 May 2013
19:55:06 [npdoty]
Zakim, this is 87225
19:55:06 [Zakim]
npdoty, I see Team_(dnt)18:00Z in the schedule but not yet started. Perhaps you mean "this will be 87225".
19:55:11 [npdoty]
Zakim, this will be 87225
19:55:11 [Zakim]
ok, npdoty; I see Team_(dnt)18:00Z scheduled to start 115 minutes ago
19:56:21 [Zakim]
Team_(dnt)18:00Z has now started
19:56:28 [Zakim]
+[Apple]
19:56:54 [npdoty]
Zakim, [Apple] has like 40 of us
19:56:54 [Zakim]
+like, 40, of, us; got it
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19:58:10 [Zakim]
+ +1.781.479.aaaa
19:58:42 [bilcorry]
Zakim, aaaa is me
19:58:42 [Zakim]
+bilcorry; got it
19:58:48 [bilcorry]
Zakim, mute me
19:58:48 [Zakim]
bilcorry should now be muted
19:59:13 [npdoty]
Zakim, who is on the phone?
19:59:13 [Zakim]
On the phone I see [Apple], bilcorry (muted)
19:59:14 [Zakim]
[Apple] has like, 40, of, us
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20:02:57 [Zakim]
+??P13
20:03:02 [Zakim]
+Gregg_Vanderheiden
20:03:13 [schunter]
Zakim, ??P13 is schunter
20:03:13 [Zakim]
+schunter; got it
20:03:16 [moneill2]
zakin,[ipcaller] is me
20:03:29 [moneill2]
zakim, [ipcaller] is me
20:03:29 [Zakim]
sorry, moneill2, I do not recognize a party named '[ipcaller]'
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-Gregg_Vanderheiden
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20:05:40 [Zakim]
+[IPcaller]
20:05:42 [moneill2]
zakim, [IPcaller] is me
20:05:42 [Zakim]
+moneill2; got it
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20:09:04 [aleecia]
1 Infinite Loop, 15% apple hardware, 10% 3rd party; please don't get David fired. :-)
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20:10:06 [npdoty]
scribenick: npdoty
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20:10:20 [npdoty]
peter: we made a point of having break out rooms, in case smaller groups want to huddle, during breaks, etc.
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20:10:26 [npdoty]
... talk to dsinger about the details there
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20:11:00 [npdoty]
... apologies for classroom style, the room got a little more full than the horseshoe plan
20:11:13 [npdoty]
... pretend you're all facing each other, looking eye to eye, for better conversations
20:11:17 [ChrisPedigoOPA]
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20:11:27 [npdoty]
... will give you an introduction, overview of things as I see it, just to set up
20:11:41 [npdoty]
... pleased to have Josh Chasin from ComScore to talk about audience measurement
20:11:50 [Hefferjr]
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20:11:54 [npdoty]
... Joe Turow, an expert from Penn on the phone may give brief reactions
20:12:07 [npdoty]
... a break, and then a session on item 6, browser settings
20:12:13 [Yianni]
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20:12:28 [npdoty]
... important because last face-to-face before Last Call, won't get another chance to bring everyone together before last call is my view
20:12:38 [npdoty]
... a lot of people working hard toward that, but just good to keep in mind
20:12:41 [hwest]
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20:12:52 [npdoty]
... put some ratholes on the side
20:13:05 [npdoty]
... have a parking lot where we might come back to some important points on Tuesday afternoon/Wed morning
20:13:09 [dstark]
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20:13:11 [npdoty]
... the chair will cut off filibustering
20:13:48 [npdoty]
... in the self-interest of major stakeholder groups to pursue the framework
20:13:58 [Chapell]
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20:14:11 [npdoty]
... is this good public policy? economic efficiency; rights/autonomy/choice
20:14:23 [npdoty]
... if we win on economy and on autonomy, then that's a win for us
20:14:25 [Zakim]
+ +1.647.274.aabb
20:14:36 [npdoty]
... this is a draft, and a framework, doesn't have detailed language
20:14:41 [schunter]
Are there slides that have been posted?
20:14:45 [npdoty]
... this makes sense in my view, which is what I'll try to explain
20:14:56 [Wileys]
Matthias - no slides
20:15:04 [bryan]
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20:15:11 [npdoty]
... is it a significant improvement of privacy and choice? can we explain it to users? can we get adoption?
20:15:20 [haakonfb]
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20:15:31 [npdoty]
... adoption, headers going out, but except for some like Twitter and AP, not getting a lot of third party adoption
20:15:48 [npdoty]
... if it's easy to use and technology neutral and it's globally adopted, that's a good outcome, and the intention of the draft framework
20:16:00 [MarkVickers]
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20:16:08 [npdoty]
... a public policy advantage of consensus agreement here: interoperability
20:16:38 [npdoty]
... leads to an efficiency outcome; upholds choice/rights because users get the choice they thought; and interoperability is a goal of W3C
20:16:46 [prestia]
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20:17:00 [npdoty]
... hugely distributed system, lots of browsers, first parties, third parties, etc.
20:17:23 [npdoty]
... negotiation of bilateral agreements of all of those is impossible, good place for standardization, a coordination function
20:17:33 [npdoty]
... both what it means to receive and what it means to send
20:17:37 [fwagner]
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20:17:46 [npdoty]
... having a one off of this is what it means to me isn't workable, that's the reason for standards
20:18:08 [npdoty]
... much of the work in the compliance spec is about receiving the signal, in particular about how it applies to third parties
20:18:23 [npdoty]
... haven't had as much discussion about the sending of the signal -- what the user sees and how the browser operates
20:18:36 [npdoty]
... in the draft framework, there's a series of things we'll discuss this week regarding sending
20:18:45 [npdoty]
... "a brief and neutral description"
20:18:57 [rigo]
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20:19:09 [npdoty]
... in a world where defaults and nudges matter (which is our world)
20:19:18 [JHobaugh]
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20:19:25 [npdoty]
... the group has long agreed that the DNT signal would be unset (not "off", an imprecision in earlier language)
20:19:27 [fwagner_]
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20:19:52 [npdoty]
... from an economics point of view, the current equilibrium doesn't have agreement on sending/receiving and little user choice when sending a DNT signal
20:19:52 [rigo]
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20:20:06 [npdoty]
... could get worse through an arms race, people spend a lot of money and don't even get privacy and user choice at the end of it
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20:20:29 [Bin_Hu]
present+ Bin_Hu
20:20:37 [dsinger]
zakim, who is on the phone?
20:20:37 [Zakim]
On the phone I see [Apple], bilcorry (muted), schunter, moneill2, +1.647.274.aabb
20:20:40 [Zakim]
[Apple] has like, 40, of, us
20:20:47 [npdoty]
... if we have a standard, we could have effective choice
20:20:58 [npdoty]
... need to have a dependable standard, otherwise browsers and sites won't invest
20:21:12 [dwainberg]
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20:21:21 [npdoty]
... draft framework provides a structure for giving the dependability we want
20:21:42 [npdoty]
... "transaction-specific capital"
20:22:00 [npdoty]
... with this transaction, we need to invest together to make it work
20:22:20 [wseltzer]
[Oliver Williamson: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oliver_E._Williamson ]
20:22:40 [npdoty]
... imagine a ship and a dock, for the kind of thing we're shipping (specialized wheat) -- a specialized ship for dropping wheat efficiently and a specialized dock for receiving wheat efficiently
20:23:12 [npdoty]
... if they both invest in that specialization (expensive), get to a more efficient outcome
20:23:49 [npdoty]
... if the next day the dock-owner doubled the price (because of specialization), the ship owner would be "sad" (specific economic terminology)
20:24:07 [npdoty]
... if you're worried about that, you don't build the ship at all, and so we don't get the efficient outcome
20:24:45 [npdoty]
... different methods, but have to have trust
20:25:18 [npdoty]
... call the browsers a dock, for example, requires investment in building a feature for users that sends a DNT signal
20:25:53 [npdoty]
... and for sites and ships, sites/third parties have expenses to change back-end systems to receive DNT signal, but the concern is what if the sending of the signal suddenly changes
20:26:28 [npdoty]
... one of the concerns from the sites' side is that the description to the user or the default could change some day in the future
20:26:57 [npdoty]
... sites rationally won't invest if they don't have some confidence about future periods
20:27:58 [npdoty]
... if you preferred one group over another, you could tell one group that they could change the deal in the future, but that would actually undermine the deal for all
20:28:37 [npdoty]
... if we want the users to win (not unreasonable from a W3C point of view), we could set a standard that allowed the users to change every chance they get
20:28:51 [npdoty]
... but that could inhibit investment anyway
20:29:09 [npdoty]
... would undermine what you were trying to achieve in supporting users
20:29:26 [haakonfb1]
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20:29:45 [npdoty]
</Oliver Williamson>
20:29:57 [npdoty]
topic: draft framework
20:30:11 [npdoty]
peter: talk about some of the browser and site issues in the draft framework, how it looks for users
20:30:58 [npdoty]
... take two clicks to turn on Do Not Track (one to get the settings, one to change the setting), similar to how cookie policies are changed or how Do Not Call list works
20:31:15 [npdoty]
... if it's hidden away where no one will use it, that might be bad for users
20:31:44 [npdoty]
... based on Mozilla's stats, Firefox sees double-digit adoption, even though it's not widely advertised, people are turning it on
20:32:00 [npdoty]
... it is easy to use, even easier if groups were willing to educate users on their web sites
20:32:40 [npdoty]
... could be different stable and transparent ways to say what will happen on the send and on the receive side
20:32:47 [npdoty]
... Tuesday morning we'll talk about how that fits into the TPE
20:33:09 [npdoty]
... what if one side tries to change the rules in "Period 2" (sometime later)
20:33:18 [npdoty]
... browsers are not mandated to comply with the standard, no legal requirement
20:33:39 [Zakim]
+ +1.215.898.aacc
20:33:40 [npdoty]
... one thing that could happen is that sites could respond with a "D" signal, indicating that they don't think it's compliant
20:33:55 [tlr]
zakim, who is on the phone?
20:33:55 [Zakim]
On the phone I see [Apple], bilcorry (muted), schunter, moneill2, +1.647.274.aabb, +1.215.898.aacc
20:33:57 [Zakim]
[Apple] has like, 40, of, us
20:33:57 [npdoty]
Zakim, aacc may be Turow
20:33:57 [Zakim]
+Turow?; got it
20:34:11 [johnsimpson]
q?
20:34:42 [npdoty]
... browsers can still compete on all other aspects of the browser experience
20:34:48 [npdoty]
... browsers can still leave DNT entirely if they don't think it helps users
20:34:59 [npdoty]
... there's another possible part of the framework, regarding cookie blocking
20:35:25 [npdoty]
... from Jonathan's blog first published, browsers could not block third party cookies for sites that are compliant with DNT
20:35:45 [npdoty]
... browsers could then have a story for their users that the site is either respecting user choice (through DNT) or cookies are blocked
20:36:10 [npdoty]
... gives sites a carrot to come in, to get the benefit of third-party cookies from more browsers
20:36:18 [npdoty]
... have transparent, stable rules
20:36:38 [npdoty]
... for the user: what if there's do DNT standard?
20:36:50 [npdoty]
... can turn on the signal but it doesn't have an affect, or have the arms race
20:37:07 [npdoty]
... haven't seen another package that gets users that higher equilibrium
20:37:11 [npdoty]
... how can we improve things over time?
20:37:31 [npdoty]
... something like the Draft Framework can bring in investment from browsers and sites
20:37:43 [npdoty]
... but one major concern remained around unique ID cookies
20:37:51 [npdoty]
... I asked last week for any additional plans that could address that
20:38:10 [npdoty]
... we'll talk about that more tomorrow afternoon, and about audience measurement in just a few minutes
20:38:21 [npdoty]
... very simple: if you turn DNT on, you don't have a unique ID following you around the Web
20:38:35 [npdoty]
... could be that we can get close to that now and better in later periods
20:38:53 [npdoty]
... last Wednesday, I said we had an outcome that is rational for all stakeholders
20:39:05 [npdoty]
... today I've said there is an economically efficient outcome
20:39:13 [npdoty]
... a lot of you have been working hard, talking within your own groups
20:39:42 [npdoty]
... we can do something better for policy and for all our stakeholders
20:39:55 [johnsimpson]
q?
20:40:01 [npdoty]
... invite Josh Chasin, Chief Research Officer for ComScore, to talk about audience measurement
20:41:14 [npdoty]
rvaneijk: before we move on, can we talk about the agenda? do we need to fix it right now?
20:41:27 [npdoty]
topic: agenda
20:41:36 [npdoty]
peter: audience measurement that's been a common topic
20:41:50 [npdoty]
... then have david singer talk about some browser discussions about neutral presentation and common resources
20:42:05 [npdoty]
... Stu Ingis available remotely to talk from a distant about some Item 6 issues around browsers
20:42:23 [npdoty]
... tomorrow morning, Matthias and David leading, with some questions about technical measures around Item 6 (browser restrictions and labeling)
20:42:36 [npdoty]
... tomorrow afternoon can talk more about specific areas around unique IDs, some work on facts in that area
20:42:43 [haakonfb1]
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20:42:54 [npdoty]
... Tuesday afternoon and Wednesday morning can allow deeper dives into particular issues
20:43:11 [npdoty]
... for example, perhaps around term of "browser" vs. "user agent"
20:43:31 [npdoty]
... if you have suggestions of particular topics to be sure for us to touch on, write them down
20:43:44 [npdoty]
... Wednesday afternoon we will have a "where are we now" meeting
20:44:03 [npdoty]
... have we made enough progress that it's worth going to normative text, is there some other path, or is it really frankly not there
20:44:24 [npdoty]
... that's a serious conversation, that I've tried to prepare people for
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20:44:58 [npdoty]
rvaneijk: list major items (parking lot / elephants) on this paper setup? peter: yes, we can start now.
20:45:09 [npdoty]
peter: user agents vs. browsers
20:45:14 [npdoty]
... more on unique IDs
20:45:26 [npdoty]
... Where Are We Now
20:45:32 [tlr]
zakim, who is making noise?
20:45:34 [npdoty]
... are there other deep dives to put on the list right now?
20:45:44 [Zakim]
tlr, listening for 10 seconds I heard sound from the following: [Apple] (29%)
20:46:33 [npdoty]
http://www.w3.org/2011/tracking-protection/sunnyvale/audience-measurement.pdf
20:46:40 [npdoty]
(also linked from the agenda)
20:46:46 [npdoty]
Topic: Audience Measurement
20:47:05 [npdoty]
josh: Josh Chasin, Chief Research Officer at comScore, for the past 6 years
20:47:22 [npdoty]
... worked in TV, radio, newspaper, billboard, Internet audience measurement, a "lifer"
20:47:27 [joeT]
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20:47:46 [npdoty]
Zakim, drop aabb
20:47:46 [Zakim]
+1.647.274.aabb is being disconnected
20:47:48 [Zakim]
- +1.647.274.aabb
20:48:06 [npdoty]
... ask for a presentation from ESOMAR, I drew the short straw ;)
20:48:18 [peterswire]
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20:48:20 [npdoty]
... define audience measurement, explain what it is we actually do
20:48:33 [tlr]
zakim, who is on the phone?
20:48:33 [Zakim]
On the phone I see [Apple], bilcorry (muted), schunter, moneill2, Turow?
20:48:35 [Zakim]
[Apple] has like, 40, of, us
20:48:36 [tlr]
zakim, mute schunter
20:48:36 [Zakim]
schunter should now be muted
20:48:39 [tlr]
zakim, mute moneill2
20:48:39 [Zakim]
moneill2 should now be muted
20:48:41 [tlr]
zakim, mute Turow?
20:48:41 [Zakim]
Turow? should now be muted
20:49:16 [npdoty]
josh: measurement audiences are not a priori known, with radio, for example, it's just broadcast, and so you just have to measure, estimate, count
20:49:17 [Zakim]
+ +1.647.274.aadd
20:49:26 [aleecia]
(thank you Roy!)
20:49:39 [tlr]
who is the caller from ontario?
20:49:53 [npdoty]
... most media is ad-supported, advertisers and media companies need to know who the audience is in order to sell ads
20:49:58 [npdoty]
... information facilitates commerce
20:50:26 [npdoty]
... history of audience measurement, radio as a medium, no one was sure if it work for advertising
20:50:51 [npdoty]
... a company did survey the day-after (which stations did you listen to yesterday?), which enabled advertising
20:51:11 [npdoty]
... initially radio was there to sell radios (the hardware), but subsequently the commercial purpose of radio changed
20:51:44 [npdoty]
... more recently "naturally occurring data" -- set-top boxes create data as the watching is actually happening
20:52:32 [npdoty]
... NYT sports section, with a particular ad on the front of the section, an upscale watch ad for men
20:52:43 [schunter2]
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20:53:07 [npdoty]
... didn't know it was me, but knew that men tended to skew male, and that the NYT has an upscale audience, contextual because the story is about the derby and the ad is about their support
20:53:14 [npdoty]
... can we all agree that this is generally okay?
20:53:41 [npdoty]
... but would be a problem if this ad said, "hey josh, I know you aren't wearing a watch, call this phone number just for you"
20:54:03 [npdoty]
... all advertising and all marketing is targeted, but the question is more about micro-targeting, embedding data about a user through a cookie
20:54:35 [npdoty]
... audience measurement doesn't support cookie targeting; if you're doing cookie targeting, you don't need audience measurement
20:54:48 [npdoty]
... the two are anathema to one another
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20:55:07 [npdoty]
... in practice, how do we integrate panel data with site census data
20:55:23 [npdoty]
... calibrating the panel data, or integrating panel and census data
20:55:48 [npdoty]
... weighting or sample-balancing; weighting is a calibration
20:56:42 [npdoty]
... table comparing panel demographics with government datasets and telephone surveys
20:58:01 [npdoty]
... my recruitment panel is underrepresenting the young male audience; we are required to address with weighting
20:58:52 [npdoty]
... apply a weight based on that ratio, calibrate the panel to a known universe
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21:00:02 [npdoty]
... similar, weight based on how many panel hits are on a particular site, vs. how many "beacon" hits / page views from that site
21:00:54 [npdoty]
... after calibrating the panel, panel projections will more closely match the universe
21:01:34 [npdoty]
... weight the panelists based on some sites which have beacons, even for sites that don't place comScore beacons on the page
21:02:53 [npdoty]
... holistic, hybrid integration -- Randall Rothenberg, IAB CEO surprised that we still rely on panels, which are such an old technology
21:03:25 [npdoty]
... so move more towards "site-centric audience measurement"
21:04:05 [npdoty]
... count the number of cookies observed on a site that places tags on their site
21:04:43 [npdoty]
... filter by country to a number of cookies, normalize via the panel on how many cookies per person
21:05:22 [npdoty]
... demographics come from the panel, not from the cookie-based census style
21:06:03 [moneill2]
if a person has multiple cookies does this represent multiple devices they use?
21:06:03 [npdoty]
... we don't use, or attempt to know, anything about the people behind these cookies
21:06:39 [npdoty]
... just counting cookies, don't believe "counting" is "tracking"
21:07:19 [npdoty]
... consequence (of DNT inhibiting audience measurement) is not users seeing less relevant ads, but instead advertising going away
21:07:42 [Wileys]
moneill2, unless the cookies are associated to a panelist (opt-in), there would be no way to tell if different cookies belonged to the same user and/or if there were multiple cookies for the same device (post cookie clearing)
21:07:47 [johnsimpson]
q?
21:07:57 [npdoty]
... because advertisers would take business elsewhere if they can't get sufficient information about placing ads on which sites
21:08:10 [tlr]
zakim, mute apple
21:08:10 [Zakim]
[Apple] should now be muted
21:08:14 [tlr]
ack apple
21:08:16 [jmayer]
jmayer has joined #dnt
21:08:19 [justin]
Why would they go to TV where you can't do that level of calibration?
21:08:22 [jmayer]
q+
21:08:25 [dan_auerbach]
+q
21:08:29 [rvaneijk]
q+
21:08:30 [jchester2]
+q
21:08:34 [moneill2]
nomber of cookies deleted or number of devices/browsers per person is an expected statistic of the popultion so could be determined by survey/
21:09:09 [npdoty]
peter: there is normative language, Kathy Joe's version from March 27th
21:09:15 [tlr]
q?
21:09:59 [npdoty]
... permitted use for audience measurement: (would be in place of current market research exception at daa as well)
21:10:13 [Yianni]
http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-tracking/2013Mar/0335.html
21:10:31 [strider]
strider has joined #dnt
21:10:31 [npdoty]
... doesn't apply unless you're calibrating or otherwise supporting panels
21:11:00 [npdoty]
... with MUST restrictions, de-identified, no longer than 53 weeks, no independent purpose, industry self-reg certification
21:11:22 [mecallahan]
mecallahan has joined #dnt
21:11:38 [npdoty]
... a lot of different representations and restrictions than in the previous version of the DAA code, I see this as a lot of new work
21:12:30 [npdoty]
jchester: thanks to Joe Turow for agreeing to talk, very few academics in the country that have looked at advertising the way he has
21:12:39 [npdoty]
... reaching out to Joe because of the evolving nature of market research
21:12:50 [tlr]
zakim, who is muted?
21:12:50 [Zakim]
I see bilcorry, schunter, moneill2, Turow? muted
21:12:53 [npdoty]
Zakim, ack Turoq
21:12:53 [Zakim]
I see jmayer, dan_auerbach, rvaneijk, jchester on the speaker queue
21:12:54 [tlr]
ack Turow
21:12:57 [npdoty]
Zakim, ack Turow
21:12:57 [Zakim]
I see jmayer, dan_auerbach, rvaneijk, jchester on the speaker queue
21:13:20 [Zakim]
+ +1.202.257.aaee
21:13:27 [npdoty]
Turow: flattered and humbled, thanks to Josh for his presentation
21:13:51 [npdoty]
... given that comScore just counts, rather than looking at cookies, is an interesting point
21:14:18 [npdoty]
... formulation ("calibrate or otherwise support") seems to enable different functionality, weight with demographics or psychographics or behavioral activity
21:14:32 [moneill2]
or geolocation
21:15:01 [npdoty]
... there may be some people who don't want to help comScore, Nielsen, etc. -- someone may well say I don't think these companies deserve my help
21:15:45 [npdoty]
... comScore and Nielsen numbers are very different from one another, tens of thousands of people or rankings different, am I, by being part of this sample, supporting a specious rating system? to what extent does an individual have autonomy to choose whether to be part of that?
21:16:03 [npdoty]
... and what does "otherwise support" and what "calibrate" might mean?
21:16:11 [strider]
strider has joined #dnt
21:16:21 [peterswire]
q?
21:16:37 [npdoty]
... don't believe advertisers would abandon the Internet for radio, given the lack of information detail on radio (regarding diaries)
21:16:46 [tlr]
zakim, mute turow
21:16:46 [Zakim]
Turow? should now be muted
21:17:16 [tlr]
ack turow
21:17:17 [npdoty]
jchester2: panel concept is being transformed, what is the changing nature of panels, big data, and predictive optimization?
21:17:43 [npdoty]
Turow: depends on how you want to define "calibrate and otherwise support" regarding actuarial activities
21:18:19 [npdoty]
... does the person want to be part of it? not a question of whether it's evil or not evil to participate
21:18:20 [rigo]
rigo has joined #dnt
21:18:49 [npdoty]
... I would expect that the rating system today won't be the same in 5 years, more likely to move towards an individual census (citing Rothenberg)
21:19:04 [jchester2]
-q
21:19:13 [BerinSzoka]
BerinSzoka has joined #DNT
21:19:25 [BerinSzoka]
+q
21:19:25 [jchester2]
+q
21:19:35 [npdoty]
Josh: might just be that better language is possible, not married to it
21:19:55 [npdoty]
peter: how open-ended is "calibrate"?
21:20:46 [npdoty]
Josh: wanted to explain what we do now, "calibration" may have a more general meaning -- you might instead want to define what not occur
21:21:42 [npdoty]
... with TV, calibrate by surveys, even for people that don't live in TV households
21:21:53 [npdoty]
... calibrate their sample to play back to known universe values
21:22:20 [npdoty]
... calibrating our panels to known behaviors in the universe
21:22:42 [npdoty]
... weighting, confirming or aligning results in the panel to known phenomena in the universe
21:23:43 [npdoty]
... if you had a panel about who was driving where but you also had some known counting of how many people drive down a certain road, of course you will weight your sample to that -- the question is "what may be known?"
21:23:59 [npdoty]
... behooves us to weight/calibrate to known numbers
21:24:42 [npdoty]
... regarding the question of whether users don't want to participate -- would actually make comScore and Nielsen results more different
21:25:01 [BerinSzoka]
I hope we're not going to shoot down questions about ownership of data
21:25:02 [aleecia]
q+
21:25:10 [npdoty]
... and whose data is it, anyway? [perhaps a tough audience] shouldn't CNN have the right to count its visitors and let comScore know
21:25:32 [BerinSzoka]
so Jeff just gets a free pass to interrupt? can the rest of us do that, too?
21:26:29 [peterswire]
no
21:26:40 [susanisrael]
is dislike of ratings a tracking issue?
21:26:43 [fielding]
THIS IS NOT RELEVANT
21:26:55 [peterswire]
q?
21:26:56 [npdoty]
Turow: numbers are off in comparing multiple audience measurement providers
21:27:10 [rigo]
rigo has joined #dnt
21:27:20 [npdoty]
... so a user might say that we don't want to be part of this
21:27:31 [strider]
strider has joined #dnt
21:27:50 [peterswire]
q?
21:27:59 [Zakim]
-bilcorry
21:28:06 [npdoty]
ack jmayer
21:28:30 [npdoty]
jmayer: clarifying, who are the panel users, how do they come to be in the panel, what is the software like and what is the consent?
21:29:12 [fielding]
Can we limit questions to those that are relevant to DNT and not panel studies in general or comScore probing?
21:29:14 [npdoty]
Richard_comScore: 2 million people have signed up for comScore's panel, individuals opt-in, displayed a communication about scope, accept the terms and install the software
21:29:21 [npdoty]
ack dan_auerbach
21:29:43 [npdoty]
dan_auerbach: thanks for presenting; when consumers opt in to a panel, users could send DNT:0, set aside for now
21:30:11 [Zakim]
-Turow?
21:30:37 [npdoty]
... what's the harm of losing the DNT:1 data? weighting to the universe of site-centric data -- could you adjust in collecting that site-centric census data?
21:30:51 [rigo]
rigo has joined #dnt
21:31:07 [justin]
You can still use the beacon hits --- you just can't correlate across sites.
21:31:16 [Zakim]
+ +1.215.898.aaff - is perhaps Turow?
21:31:30 [npdoty]
... throwing away data not from the panelists, but data from the beacon hits -- if you have a statistically prior data set, couldn't you still successfully do the correlation?
21:31:36 [Zakim]
+ +1.408.223.aagg
21:31:56 [bilcorry]
Zakim, aagg is me
21:31:56 [Zakim]
+bilcorry; got it
21:32:08 [bilcorry]
Zakim, please mute me
21:32:08 [Zakim]
bilcorry should now be muted
21:32:35 [npdoty]
josh: that might be fine now, but what will the effect be if the DNT adoption rate is 95%
21:32:46 [schunter]
schunter has joined #dnt
21:32:51 [npdoty]
dan_auerbach: even 5% might be enough, happy to talk about Bayesian/frequentist approach
21:33:59 [npdoty]
rachel_n_thomas: my concern is about asking an expert about market research, if dan's question is implying that the expert doesn't know what he's talking about....
21:34:11 [paulohm]
q+
21:34:13 [jmayer]
q+
21:34:22 [dsinger]
I can give a naive answer to the question posed: who owns the data? If a shop records how many people visit, how long they stay, and what they buy, that's their data. If someone records what shops I visit, how long I stay, what I buy, that's my data. If there is a record of my visit to specific shop, that's shared data. Maybe this is obvious...
21:34:31 [tlr]
q?
21:34:40 [dsinger]
zakim, who is on the phone?
21:34:40 [Zakim]
On the phone I see [Apple], schunter (muted), moneill2 (muted), +1.647.274.aadd, +1.202.257.aaee, Turow?, bilcorry (muted)
21:34:42 [Zakim]
[Apple] has like, 40, of, us
21:35:14 [npdoty]
josh: if a DNT:1 user comes and I can't set a cookie, can I still count the request? that's what happens now, with cookie churn
21:35:16 [moneill2]
or a short duration (<24 hrs?) cookie
21:35:20 [npdoty]
ack rvaneijk
21:35:20 [rigo]
dsinger: the law says otherwise in most countries, especially if they photograph you
21:35:53 [peterswire]
q?
21:35:58 [npdoty]
rvaneijk: re, what can be known with counting? regarding behavioral-centric metrics
21:36:20 [npdoty]
... a whole list in @@JIGS@@ web metrics document, how does that relate to the counting?
21:36:21 [dsinger]
if they photo me, that's no longer 'their' data, is it?
21:37:15 [npdoty]
josh: right now video duration comes from the panel
21:38:00 [dan_auerbach]
q?
21:38:42 [Marc_]
Marc_ has joined #dnt
21:38:47 [npdoty]
rvaneijk: also the question of what would be a good price for a particular ad, given the context
21:39:22 [johnsimpson]
Q?
21:39:57 [dan_auerbach]
q+
21:40:01 [npdoty]
josh: regarding cookie targeting of ads ... see what sites have duplication with the New York Times
21:40:41 [npdoty]
rvaneijk: take it offline.
21:40:46 [npdoty]
ack BerinSzoka
21:40:49 [peterswire]
q?
21:41:44 [npdoty]
BerinSzoka: regarding expert witnesses, important assertion about the substitution effect of online advertising for other forms of advertising and the effect on revenue
21:42:03 [susanisrael]
q+
21:42:12 [npdoty]
... could get economic data on that, but we shouldn't dismiss it if we don't like it
21:42:17 [npdoty]
... should have more economic data
21:42:36 [npdoty]
... this is the single most important thing I've heard yet, want to make sure it's not lost
21:42:56 [justin]
To be clear, I have asked for more data on this issue FOR A LONG TIME.
21:43:06 [justin]
s/more/any
21:43:21 [jmayer]
If I understood the introduction correctly, Mr. Chasin's expertise is in market measurement, not the economic analysis of online advertising markets and privacy controls.
21:43:22 [npdoty]
josh: IAB program about making measurement make sense, transparency/accountability
21:43:41 [jmayer]
Justin, right there with you. Quite strange given the industry's quantitative emphasis.
21:44:19 [npdoty]
... wrote blog posts, found that they did a really good job, advertisers felt hamstrung, that more information would bring more money in
21:44:36 [npdoty]
... publicly documented work that Bain did
21:45:10 [johnsimpson]
q?
21:45:14 [npdoty]
ack jchester
21:45:40 [rachel_n_thomas]
+rachel_n_thomas
21:45:47 [rachel_n_thomas]
q+
21:46:02 [afowler]
afowler has joined #dnt
21:46:18 [npdoty]
jchester: 3MS is acknowledgment about shift to multiplatform environment, digital and out-of-home; concern about move to real-time full census environment
21:46:22 [npdoty]
... where might this be in 5 years?
21:46:29 [justin]
If there's a link, I would appreciate it. I can't find anything doing a search for BAIN or 3MS on the mailing list.
21:47:26 [npdoty]
josh: would be better to use "breadcrumb" than "cookie", the forces at play from the research companies are employing data assets to provide solutions for buyers and sellers of advertising
21:47:28 [LMastria_DAA]
+q
21:47:55 [npdoty]
... research companies look as data assets as input into audience measurement models
21:48:05 [fielding]
http://www.iab.net/mmms (5 seconds on google)
21:48:17 [rvaneijk]
http://www.measurementnow.net/
21:48:19 [npdoty]
... consumer concern is a limiter / governor of what we can do
21:48:42 [npdoty]
ack aleecia
21:49:57 [npdoty]
aleecia: two groups: an opt-in panel and census visitors who aren't aware. josh: yes.
21:50:31 [npdoty]
aleecia: consent always trumps DNT:1, regarding the panel, you're good -- still some technical issues about how to let users know
21:50:45 [npdoty]
... only dealing with the size of the census, whether the census includes data from DNT:1 or not
21:50:58 [dsinger]
presumably also whether the census can identify users (user agents or devices)
21:51:33 [npdoty]
... already have service provider provision, standing in the shoes of first parties, can still collect data as long as it's not combining data with visitors from other sites
21:51:34 [BerinSzoka]
So... are we not going to do introductions of participants? There are some new faces here
21:52:49 [npdoty]
... so how much of a problem is it, given that service providers can collect data for each first party?
21:53:02 [susanisrael]
aleeca, doesn't that contradict the idea thta service provider provides services only to and for the first party?
21:53:16 [npdoty]
Josh: if this provision enables us to do what we do, then that's the research exemption we need.
21:53:21 [Zakim]
-Turow?
21:53:23 [justin]
Still trying to find the data in those links.
21:54:02 [npdoty]
aleecia: you offer an opt-out today, how does your current opt-out differ?
21:54:25 [npdoty]
josh: defer to Richard. Richard_comScore: we do have individual opt-outs, with information about what our data collection is, on our web sites
21:55:08 [aleecia]
Actually, no: I was looking for an answer on that.
21:55:42 [dsinger]
q?
21:55:43 [npdoty]
Richard_comScore: also proposed to create an omnibus site regarding all market research sites, to explain and have an opt-out
21:55:46 [npdoty]
ack paulohm
21:55:47 [peterswire]
q?
21:56:08 [npdoty]
paulohm: if the census isn't to provide richness, you could do that without any identifiers or exceptions, right?
21:56:24 [npdoty]
... you don't need an identifier in the cookie
21:56:30 [npdoty]
josh: yes, the cookie could be empty
21:56:41 [BerinSzoka]
after the break, the original Unfrozen Caveman Lawyer (me) v Unfrozen Caveman Policy Lawyer (Paul)... outside... to the death...
21:57:12 [LMastria_DAA]
-q
21:57:13 [justin]
So have we solved this now?
21:57:36 [npdoty]
paulohm: to confirm, you don't need to know anything about the cookie, just aggregate by country, so we're all agreed
21:57:47 [npdoty]
susanisrael: I thought what paulohm said was correct
21:57:52 [justin]
Does anyone want to stand up and say why individual cross-site correlation is necessary?
21:57:53 [moneill2]
short duration identifiers when DNT:1 is fine.
21:57:53 [npdoty]
peter: having agreement break out is a good thing
21:58:02 [justin]
For census-level calibration?
21:58:31 [npdoty]
josh: it's going to have a unique-identifier, but don't embed any characteristics with that cookie
21:59:16 [moneill2]
a unique id but how long does it last?
21:59:30 [npdoty]
peter: okay, no data associated. so why do you need a unique identifier?
21:59:52 [npdoty]
josh: need to measure cookie deletion
22:00:03 [peterswire]
q?
22:00:13 [moneill2]
measure by survey?
22:00:43 [npdoty]
... need to know that it's not the same cookie as last time
22:00:45 [npdoty]
ack susanisrael
22:00:46 [jchester2]
+q
22:00:53 [dan_auerbach]
q-
22:01:15 [npdoty]
susanisrael: we've discussed freq. capping as a permitted use, require some exceptions even when users don't want to be tracked
22:01:16 [LMastria_DAA]
+q
22:01:24 [npdoty]
... need to know if someone is re-sending a cookie or if it's a new viewer
22:02:03 [moneill2]
if DNT:1 they have opted out
22:02:09 [npdoty]
... does it matter if there's some opt-out of your cookies? was your response, up to a point it's fine, but with a big number it would be a problem? josh: yes.
22:02:12 [dwainberg]
dwainberg has joined #dnt
22:02:18 [peterswire]
q?
22:02:59 [aleecia]
N.B. for frequency capping we were talking about scoped to one party only.
22:03:00 [npdoty]
... if someone doesn't like advertising or some player on the Internet, is that really part of tracking?
22:03:03 [fielding]
The scorecardresearch.com cookies on my browser include a UID (persistent to 2038 -- 32bit max date) and a UIDR (persistent for two years)
22:03:13 [dan_auerbach]
q+
22:03:16 [npdoty]
ack jmayer
22:03:38 [Chapell]
q+
22:03:52 [npdoty]
jmayer: understanding non-panelists visitors, is it right that unique ID cookies are used to count the number of unique visitors to a page?
22:04:30 [npdoty]
josh: we count unique cookies, and then use the panel to count the number of people
22:04:36 [justin]
This could be done with first-party cookies then, yes.
22:04:46 [fielding]
aleecia, when did we say that frequency counting is per party? It usually isn't in practice.
22:05:01 [peterswire]
q?
22:05:14 [npdoty]
jmayer: alternatives: a cookie with just the number of times the visitor has seen the page, that's a first pass response although there could be other techniques
22:05:21 [npdoty]
... a way that moves away from unique identifiers
22:05:24 [aleecia]
That was the discussion around frequency capping with double-keyed cookies, which is where we left things last time we talked about the topic in any serious way
22:05:54 [npdoty]
josh: I'm not sure about the technology, one criterion, having a tag on the page must not effect the user experience of loading a page
22:06:07 [fielding]
oh, the double key was the campaign ID, not the site, IIRC
22:06:24 [aleecia]
Roy you are correct - my error.
22:06:42 [npdoty]
jmayer: I don't think it would affect the loading of a page
22:06:49 [npdoty]
... you would still have the numbers you need? josh: perhaps.
22:07:02 [aleecia]
We had left the dialog with "what's a campaign?" not nailed down.
22:07:17 [dsinger]
q?
22:07:26 [Joanne]
Joanne has joined #DNT
22:07:27 [susanisrael]
As I understand it, in talking about whether we want to create/allow a permitted use for audience measurement, what we are trying to determine is whether this is important enough to the operation of the internet that the aggregate counting should be permitted, despite a user's desire not to be tracked. And furthermore, I think we are hearing that the counting here may not even be tracking.
22:07:35 [npdoty]
ack LMastria_DAA
22:07:52 [schunter]
schunter has joined #dnt
22:07:54 [npdoty]
LMastria_DAA: need to reign in hypotheticals, hear from Josh, this will be a subject for further exploration
22:08:01 [rvaneijk]
so for the minutes: <Josh> would only need to know the number, as a counter and if the technology provided for this, unique IDs would not be necessary.
22:08:15 [npdoty]
... hypotheticals that may or may not occur or technologies that may or may not work
22:08:46 [npdoty]
peter: this discussion is important to the draft framework, helps to inform how we look at the framework
22:09:17 [rvaneijk]
@LU, it is important to discuss proportionality of the uniqe id's connected to audience measurements and to explore subsidiarity, for DNT needs to be future proof.
22:09:21 [peterswire]
q?
22:09:26 [npdoty]
... the topic of unique ids in general is quite strong discussion for us in general, unique IDs is the area we've seen the most focus on
22:09:35 [peterswire]
q?
22:09:40 [npdoty]
LMastria_DAA: solutioneering it here might not be the best
22:09:42 [npdoty]
ack rachel_n_thomas
22:09:45 [Chris_IAB]
Chris_IAB has joined #dnt
22:10:01 [dsinger]
q?
22:10:04 [Wileys]
+q
22:10:06 [npdoty]
rachel_n_thomas: spec shouldn't have specific technologies in the language
22:10:11 [npdoty]
ack jchester
22:10:13 [susanisrael]
the question is whether the bsuinesses on the Internet need audience measurement in order to operate, just as they need financial accounting, frequency capping, fraud detection and other things that we have deemed to justify permitted uses.
22:10:20 [justin]
I think the point is that it sounds like you could accomplish everything that Josh is describing under the "service provider" language, so you wouldn't need a separate market research exception.
22:10:49 [npdoty]
jchester: how do you work on the mobile environment?
22:11:11 [peterswire]
q?
22:11:13 [susanisrael]
I believe that the reference to other companies was not necessarily a reference to other audience measurement companies?
22:11:18 [npdoty]
josh: can't speak to Nielsen
22:11:47 [rvaneijk]
http://www.comscore.com/Products/Audience_Analytics/GSMA_Mobile_Media_Metrics_MMM
22:12:00 [peterswire]
Q?
22:12:04 [npdoty]
... have multiple mobile panels, iOS, Android, tablet, etc.
22:12:26 [susanisrael]
Justin, I don't understand the service provider provision to operate the way Aleecia suggested it does. My understanding of what is permitted under this provision is actually much more limited.
22:12:39 [tlr]
q?
22:12:45 [npdoty]
ack dan_auerbach
22:12:54 [Chapell]
q-
22:13:01 [rvaneijk]
GSMA Mobile Media Metrics provides a powerful view of the who, what and where of the mobile web to give publishers more comprehensive measurement and advertisers more extensive media reach data.
22:13:19 [moneill2]
cant hear anything
22:13:26 [npdoty]
dan_auerbach: didn't mean to make you feel more unwelcome here. josh: didn't feel that way at all.
22:13:42 [npdoty]
dan_auerbach: software running on users' computers that is making requests to users' computers
22:13:51 [npdoty]
... any challenge to that software altering outgoing headers
22:14:03 [npdoty]
josh: need an engineer to answer that. [follow up offline]
22:14:32 [peterswire]
Q?
22:14:33 [npdoty]
Richard_comScore: in general, researchers don't want to modify an experience, only monitor
22:14:35 [npdoty]
ack Wileys
22:14:41 [justin]
susanisrael, Well, the more important point (for me) would be that you could do it all through first-party cookies. If you're just trying to count uniques to EACH website, not ACROSS websites.
22:15:27 [npdoty]
Wileys: since it wouldn't effect the personal experience, wouldn't have any of the yet-to-be-defined harm, just have the question of whether unique IDs are necessary
22:15:51 [npdoty]
... for other audience measurement groups, use census data across single-site counting issue [so would need unique IDs]
22:15:56 [justin]
Ah, thanks WileyS, I figured it wouldn't be that easy.
22:15:57 [susanisrael]
But the first party could not provide that information to a third party. And there is mistrust of first parties providing their own measurement. That's one of the reasons third parties do it.
22:16:19 [npdoty]
... recommendations have come to approach novel technologies that would let us move away from unique identifiers
22:16:46 [justin]
susanisrael, I was thinking more along the lines of what Omniture and Google Analytics do, but WileyS points out that wouldn't be sufficient for what a lot of companies do (though it would be useful to hear an ESOMAR member explain that).
22:16:48 [npdoty]
... unproven at scale, would require expense to make the shift, overinvestment with little guarantee of return
22:16:56 [fielding]
justin, were you looking for http://www.iab.net/insights_research/industry_data_and_landscape/digital_pricing_research
22:17:17 [npdoty]
... have offered in the past to enter into a parallel discussion or Lab to move down that path, prove to our engineers that this is how to make the move
22:17:21 [npdoty]
... can't sign a blank check on day one
22:17:23 [peterswire]
q?
22:17:51 [npdoty]
... not realistic for a July Last Call
22:18:05 [susanisrael]
justin, when a service provider does that for a first party, it does it only for/to the first party. Not for disclosure to others, if it's just a service provider.
22:18:06 [Zakim]
-schunter
22:18:08 [Zakim]
- +1.647.274.aadd
22:18:09 [npdoty]
peter: unique id, what can credibly be done now vs. down the road?
22:19:04 [justin]
susanisrael, They could use aggregate data. But I would be fine revising to make clear that first party cookies are OK for market research.
22:19:10 [npdoty]
Wileys: hard to commit to an unknown future. people conceptually like the Lab concept, but pushback that this is a "one time" situation (under regulatory, market and press pressure)
22:19:17 [Chris_IAB]
q?
22:19:20 [jmayer]
This is the level of difficulty associated with many privacy-preserving approaches: https://github.com/jonathanmayer/Tracking-Not-Required/blob/master/conversion-measurement/ConversionMeasure.js
22:19:29 [npdoty]
... fear then that the Lab effort would dissipate
22:19:36 [susanisrael]
Justin, let's take the conversation offline later.
22:19:40 [jmayer]
We aren't talking about lab hypotheticals. We're talking about trivial JavaScript.
22:19:50 [aleecia]
the nice thing for ComScore is it's not like they need to do a real time auction
22:19:52 [justin]
fielding, I thought this was what he was discussing --- (though not precise as to the value of calibration): http://www.iab.net/media/file/BAIN_BRIEF_Digital_Advertising_4-19-10_FINAL.pdf
22:19:53 [BerinSzoka]
I note there are chocolate chip COOKIES waiting for us all outside. since Apple blocks third party cookies, I assume they were baked on premise. Caveat emptor! (Also, note there's whole milk)
22:19:55 [justin]
q?
22:20:31 [npdoty]
<big round of applause for Josh>
22:20:41 [fielding]
justin, could be … I wasn't paying attention to why the mention came up
22:21:20 [npdoty]
peter: a bunch of things that people might be able to get on board for this week, and others that are unknown
22:21:50 [justin]
I just want a sense of how mission critical the calibration is to measurement. But it sounds like the answer is perhaps entirely dependent upon the level of DNT adoption . . .
22:22:02 [npdoty]
... if people can figure out a concrete, credible structure, I think that could be a way forward
22:22:09 [npdoty]
... that may be the best I've heard so far
22:22:28 [npdoty]
[on break until 4pm]
22:22:30 [Zakim]
-moneill2
22:22:34 [npdoty]
rrsagent, please draft the minutes
22:22:34 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2013/05/06-dnt-minutes.html npdoty
22:22:37 [npdoty]
Zakim, who is on the phone?
22:22:37 [Zakim]
On the phone I see [Apple], +1.202.257.aaee, bilcorry (muted)
22:22:38 [Zakim]
[Apple] has like, 40, of, us
22:22:42 [npdoty]
Zakim, drop aaee
22:22:42 [Zakim]
+1.202.257.aaee is being disconnected
22:22:43 [Zakim]
- +1.202.257.aaee
22:31:03 [Thomas_Schauf]
Thomas_Schauf has joined #dnt
22:44:22 [justin]
justin has joined #dnt
22:45:44 [Zakim]
+ +1.202.344.aahh
22:47:45 [strider]
strider has joined #dnt
22:52:31 [afowler]
afowler has joined #dnt
22:53:17 [prestia]
prestia has joined #dnt
22:53:58 [simon]
simon has joined #dnt
22:59:05 [Zakim]
+[IPcaller]
22:59:17 [moneill2]
zakim, [IPCaller] is me
22:59:17 [Zakim]
+moneill2; got it
23:00:15 [mecallahan]
nick --sorry was on another call. mary ellen callahan is the DC cell phone.
23:00:34 [justin]
zakim, who is on the phone?
23:00:34 [Zakim]
On the phone I see [Apple], bilcorry (muted), +1.202.344.aahh, moneill2
23:00:36 [Zakim]
[Apple] has like, 40, of, us
23:01:42 [Zakim]
+ +1.202.257.aaii
23:01:52 [mecallahan]
aaii mecallahan
23:03:29 [moneill2]
zakim. aaii is mecallahan
23:03:35 [jchester2]
jchester2 has joined #dnt
23:03:43 [moneill2]
zakim, aaii is mecallahan
23:03:43 [Zakim]
+mecallahan; got it
23:04:27 [strider]
strider has joined #dnt
23:06:13 [fielding]
fielding has joined #dnt
23:07:11 [npdoty]
Zakim, who is on the phone?
23:07:11 [Zakim]
On the phone I see [Apple], bilcorry (muted), +1.202.344.aahh, moneill2, mecallahan
23:07:13 [Zakim]
[Apple] has like, 40, of, us
23:09:53 [npdoty]
Zakim, aahh is StuIngis
23:09:53 [Zakim]
+StuIngis; got it
23:11:03 [peterswire]
we're gathering, start within 5 minutes; (1) wrap up of prior session; (2) david singer; (3) DAA
23:11:13 [strider]
strider has joined #dnt
23:11:44 [johnsimpson]
johnsimpson has joined #dnt
23:12:08 [prestia]
prestia has joined #dnt
23:12:45 [johnsimpson]
q?
23:13:08 [BillScannell]
BillScannell has joined #dnt
23:13:11 [npdoty]
Zakim, who is on the phone?
23:13:11 [Zakim]
On the phone I see [Apple], bilcorry (muted), StuIngis, moneill2, mecallahan
23:13:13 [Zakim]
[Apple] has like, 40, of, us
23:13:28 [hwest]
hwest has joined #dnt
23:13:44 [aleecia]
aleecia has joined #dnt
23:13:50 [npdoty]
topic: schedule
23:14:01 [aleecia]
For JC, the agenda has: Dinner on your own, but meet for drinks at Firehouse Brewery, 111 South Murphy.
23:14:10 [ChrisPedigoOPA]
ChrisPedigoOPA has joined #dnt
23:14:12 [npdoty]
peter: available until Wednesday afternoon, we can do Where are We Now earlier if ready
23:14:18 [paulohm]
paulohm has joined #dnt
23:14:26 [Yianni]
Yianni has joined #DNT
23:14:33 [Joanne]
Joanne has joined #DNT
23:14:42 [aleecia]
nick I could
23:15:55 [npdoty]
scribenick: aleecia
23:16:07 [aleecia]
peter: three pieces
23:16:11 [aleecia]
... 1. wrap up
23:16:15 [aleecia]
2. dsinger, browsers
23:16:20 [tlr]
zakim, who is on the phone?
23:16:20 [Zakim]
On the phone I see [Apple], bilcorry (muted), StuIngis, moneill2, mecallahan
23:16:22 [BillScannell]
BillScannell has joined #dnt
23:16:23 [Zakim]
[Apple] has like, 40, of, us
23:16:24 [aleecia]
3. Stu by phone, ad perspective
23:16:46 [aleecia]
... on market research, helpful info and Q&A, possible follow up later with other companies
23:16:58 [aleecia]
... next, looking at action items from last session
23:17:21 [sidstamm]
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23:17:35 [aleecia]
... one piece of text: calibrate or otherwise support. Would be constructive to have a task to understand "otherwise support" from industry who worked on the text.
23:17:39 [aleecia]
... make this less vague.
23:17:51 [aleecia]
... other issues related to the text? Justin, then Rob
23:18:05 [aleecia]
Justin: getting more data about how important?
23:18:38 [aleecia]
Peter: if 10% DNT, 50%, or 90% DNT, how would this change? Any data we know of?
23:18:40 [rigo]
rigo has joined #dnt
23:18:44 [npdoty]
q+ rvaneijk
23:18:47 [npdoty]
q+ jchester
23:18:52 [johnsimpson]
q?
23:19:01 [aleecia]
Richard: Esomar will work on that
23:19:22 [aleecia]
Roy: more normative text on the problem we're solving, need justification for audience measurement to be an exception. Not sure the problem we're solving.
23:19:23 [npdoty]
Richard_comScore, can we give you two actions? (one on updated text regarding "otherwise support"; one on additional data)
23:19:30 [aleecia]
Susan: Allows us to be in business.
23:19:35 [aleecia]
... that's the problem it solves.
23:19:42 [fielding]
s/Roy/Rob/
23:19:46 [aleecia]
Chris: Siri, what is track?
23:19:51 [aleecia]
Siri: silence
23:20:04 [tlr]
Siri: I'm sorry, Chris, but I can't let you do that.
23:20:09 [aleecia]
Peter: there was a pool, it took 3 hours 20 seconds to raise that
23:20:24 [dsinger]
q+
23:20:39 [justin]
For the compliance standard:
23:20:41 [justin]
"Tracking" is understood by this standard as the collection and retention of data across multiple parties' domains or services in a form such that it can be attributed to a specific user, user agent, or device.
23:20:51 [aleecia]
Rob: if we do need an exception, that would be a bad way of handling a possible future scenario. Prevent an arms race, but if we don't need reasons other than "we would go out of business," can we at least flesh that out?
23:20:51 [Chapell]
Chapell has joined #DNT
23:21:09 [aleecia]
Peter: needs to be proportionate and legit even given risks, is that right?
23:21:15 [npdoty]
action: weaver to look into data around the impact of audience measurement / changes to census calibration
23:21:15 [trackbot]
Created ACTION-397 - Look into data around the impact of audience measurement / changes to census calibration [on Richard Weaver - due 2013-05-13].
23:21:25 [justin]
Aleecia has lodged some concerns about this definition, but by and large it reflects our understanding from Cambridge.
23:21:28 [aleecia]
Rob: yes. But if just aggregated, can do processing under statistical exception.
23:21:35 [npdoty]
action: weaver to work with ESOMAR folks on clarifying "otherwise support" in audience measurement proposed text
23:21:35 [trackbot]
Created ACTION-398 - Work with ESOMAR folks on clarifying "otherwise support" in audience measurement proposed text [on Richard Weaver - due 2013-05-13].
23:21:47 [aleecia]
... might set up a good case for statistical exception, OR the legit interest, but which is it?
23:21:48 [Thomas_Schauf]
+q
23:21:52 [aleecia]
Susan: US don't have that
23:22:01 [aleecia]
Rob: could be non-normative text to explain that.
23:22:12 [aleecia]
... may be a US-centric problem, but then I would like to know what it is
23:22:13 [npdoty]
ack rvaneijk
23:22:13 [justin]
susanisrael, rvanejyk's issue is closely linked to my question --- how mission critical is the DNT:1 data for calibration of opt-in panels?
23:22:39 [justin]
s/rvanejyk/rvaneijk
23:22:49 [aleecia]
Susan: struggling to understand the need to know something about your audience in the aggregate, how many there are, and the demographics to sell advertising which supports content distribution services
23:22:56 [aleecia]
... allows a company to be in business
23:23:12 [aleecia]
... we're not operating under European laws. We're creating a set of rules.
23:23:20 [aleecia]
Rigo, Jeff, then Dan.
23:23:22 [justin]
WHAT I SAID. We need data about mission critical this is.
23:23:38 [aleecia]
Rigo: transatlantic misunderstanding we can clear up.
23:24:05 [aleecia]
... Rob is saying you can do it anyway without text in the specification, hear back we want to be sure it's in to describe what we do
23:24:21 [aleecia]
... Rob says then please describe it in a way that avoids the risk of EU misunderstanding
23:24:25 [dsinger]
q?
23:24:36 [aleecia]
Peter: drafting to address EU and US, we'd all be in favor of magical normative text that does that.
23:24:46 [aleecia]
Susan: very helpful, happy to work on that.
23:25:07 [rigo]
rigo has joined #dnt
23:25:14 [aleecia]
Jeff: since Nielsen is here, let's have public conversation just as ComScore did
23:25:20 [aleecia]
Peter: holding that aside for now
23:25:22 [npdoty]
action: susan to propose text (with Rigo and Rob v.E.) on harmonizing audience measurement permitted use in EU context
23:25:22 [trackbot]
Created ACTION-399 - Propose text (with Rigo and Rob v.E.) on harmonizing audience measurement permitted use in EU context [on Susan Israel - due 2013-05-13].
23:25:38 [aleecia]
Dan: echo Rigo, we don't need an exception, you can still do everything you need to do
23:25:51 [aleecia]
Susan: if that's true, it helps to -
23:26:25 [aleecia]
... if we understand what is prohibited, if there's no tracking and it's permitted without an exception, then this is permitted under EU law
23:26:26 [npdoty]
... might just be a permitted activity that doesn't require an exception [permitted use]
23:26:36 [aleecia]
... do we need permitted use to ensure it can continue, and we need to clarify
23:26:37 [johnsimpson]
q?
23:26:53 [aleecia]
Peter: DAA code has market research exception. Quite broad.
23:27:11 [aleecia]
... if we go to something different, that's a change for a lot of companies. Not just a W3C conversation.
23:27:21 [fielding]
q?
23:27:28 [johnsimpson]
q?
23:27:29 [aleecia]
... turning to part 2 from David Singer, on how users find out what DNT means
23:27:47 [Chris_IAB]
Chris_IAB has joined #dnt
23:27:54 [aleecia]
dsinger: browser cos talk and realized it would help to have common terms
23:28:03 [rvaneijk]
audience measurement may or may not be permitted under EU law. http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-tracking/2013May/0002.html
23:28:05 [aleecia]
... don't want to confuse people with needlessly different terms
23:28:08 [npdoty]
Zakim, queue =
23:28:08 [Zakim]
I don't understand 'queue =', npdoty
23:28:15 [npdoty]
Zakim, queue=
23:28:15 [Zakim]
I see no one on the speaker queue
23:28:19 [aleecia]
... meshes with what DAA would like to explain to users what things mean
23:28:26 [peterswire]
q?
23:28:32 [aleecia]
... neutrally phrased common resource, so users don't get confused
23:28:53 [rigo]
rvaneijk, depends on how it is done. So a permitted use would do audience measurement as it would be allowed, thus the need for a good description to come to a common understanding
23:29:01 [aleecia]
... imagine a preference, let's talk about browsers for a moment. They often have a ? or something similar with a link to more information
23:29:28 [aleecia]
... would like to like "if you want to know more about DNT, W3C (or somewhere) explains in more detail" in neutral terms
23:29:42 [aleecia]
... also, if you're in Europe, here's how it meshes with EU law
23:29:45 [Thomas_Schauf]
it seems we need a break out session on audience measurement and compliance
23:30:00 [aleecia]
.... some companies are members of DAA, to learn what they say about it, click here,
23:30:08 [aleecia]
... branches in several ways with links to many place.
23:30:14 [aleecia]
... have been chatting about this
23:30:30 [rigo]
Thomas_Schauf: yes, Rob says, if we are just counting, there is no issue. If we attach properties, we have trouble
23:30:31 [aleecia]
... would like to keep it short, comprehensible, not sure we do that in the WG :-)
23:31:00 [aleecia]
... needs to be carefully written. Hesitant to mention while we're doing normative work here, don't want to distract.
23:31:25 [aleecia]
... but want it accurate, friendly, and informed. And we'd like neutrally hosted. Don't want Apple to link to a Microsoft page...
23:31:27 [peterswire]
q?
23:31:34 [Thomas_Schauf]
rigo: Sure, but regarding EU law and lawful processing audience measurement is only one case, a view similar might exist on national level and maybe on EU level in the near future.
23:31:38 [aleecia]
... not sure how to proceed, would be happy to talk with others.
23:32:07 [aleecia]
... Not very formal yet, but that's where we are. We've come up with the same idea as the DAA for the same reasons, don't want confusion or people to click things blindly.
23:32:30 [aleecia]
... no browser company has said the idea is stupid, but if it ends up a complete mess perhaps groups won't sign on.
23:32:36 [Chapell]
q+
23:32:38 [aleecia]
... can link to more for details
23:32:40 [rigo]
sure, but a permitted use has to work globally. So you can't run the edge here
23:32:45 [johnsimpson]
q?
23:33:00 [aleecia]
Peter: in draft framework, part 6d has brief & neutral impact of turning the setting on.
23:33:06 [aleecia]
... this could be a way to get comfort there.
23:33:19 [aleecia]
... Nick has talked about how a W3C role might happen here?
23:33:30 [aleecia]
Nick: we do host docs like this, webplatform.org
23:33:44 [aleecia]
... could do it there, or a WG note, would be happy to host if it helps.
23:33:58 [aleecia]
Peter: if there's a better way to do it, W3C wouldn't insist on hosting.
23:33:59 [Zakim]
-bilcorry
23:34:02 [npdoty]
ack Chapell
23:34:07 [aleecia]
... Alan worked on this, including a protest
23:34:31 [aleecia]
Alan: see this as a positive step forward, but what is this specifically?
23:34:38 [aleecia]
... just a link or more?
23:34:49 [aleecia]
Peter: before the jump, or after?
23:35:04 [aleecia]
David: it's after the "tell me more"
23:35:07 [jeff]
jeff has joined #dnt
23:35:30 [aleecia]
... browser help explains what the check box does, and then link to more from W3C
23:35:32 [Chris_IAB]
q+
23:35:58 [aleecia]
Alan: see this as two stage. What's communicated pre-jump, and then what's described post-jump (e.g. the link)
23:35:58 [jeffwilson]
jeffwilson has joined #dnt
23:36:05 [aleecia]
David: browsers need to work that out
23:36:21 [aleecia]
Alan: helpful for part II of the discussion, but still need to talk about part I
23:36:25 [aleecia]
(what's part I or II?)
23:36:38 [aleecia]
David: "To learn more, click here" or something short
23:36:39 [justin]
part I is pre-jump, part II is post-jump
23:36:46 [aleecia]
(thanks!)
23:36:47 [peterswire]
q?
23:36:54 [aleecia]
Alan: what happens before the spec?
23:36:59 [johnsimpson]
q?
23:37:12 [aleecia]
Alan: applaud the effort, want to understand Part I better
23:37:26 [aleecia]
Chris: also applaud, Google Chrome doing this
23:37:31 [aleecia]
David: Mozilla too
23:37:38 [aleecia]
Chris: are Chrome folks part of this?
23:37:43 [aleecia]
David: they chat sometimes
23:37:53 [aleecia]
Heather: I haven't been involved but would like to be
23:38:09 [aleecia]
David: within the limits of producing a quality result we're not fussed about who helps
23:38:39 [aleecia]
David: more coffee soon, water too, if on the phone identify you or we drop you - get on IRC. we've had one journalist already.
23:38:48 [tlr]
zakim, who is on the phone?
23:38:48 [Zakim]
On the phone I see [Apple], StuIngis, moneill2, mecallahan
23:38:49 [Zakim]
[Apple] has like, 40, of, us
23:38:56 [aleecia]
... warm in here, working on that too
23:38:56 [npdoty]
everyone on the phone right now is identified
23:39:19 [aleecia]
Peter: part III of this session with Stu. Talk more about item 6, more technical 6c is tomorrow
23:39:37 [aleecia]
... Stu with support from others will now tell us about their thinking on item 6
23:39:59 [aleecia]
... DNT off by default is actually *unset* not off by default
23:40:05 [aleecia]
Stu: yes
23:40:15 [aleecia]
Stu: important that DNT is unset by default
23:40:23 [npdoty]
I believe David was referring to Mozilla's page here: https://www.mozilla.org/en-US/dnt/
23:40:25 [aleecia]
... focus for now on browsers
23:40:44 [aleecia]
... not to necessarily exclude other UAs, but let's start there to move forward
23:41:00 [npdoty]
but Chris was referring to the paragraph in Chrome's chrome, the third image here: http://howto.cnet.com/8301-11310_39-57546359-285/how-to-enable-chromes-do-not-track-option/
23:41:09 [aleecia]
Peter: on the list of topics tomorrow, discussion of browsers v. other UAs.
23:41:23 [aleecia]
... for today, when you hear "browser" pretend you're hearing "UA"if you want to.
23:41:29 [aleecia]
... we'll discuss that more tomorrow
23:41:47 [aleecia]
Stu: choice settings in the settings panel
23:42:03 [npdoty]
draft framework pdf link is here: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-tracking/2013Apr/att-0298/one_pager_framework_as_distributed.pdf
23:42:06 [aleecia]
... concept we think we're talking about is click to setting, click to activate. Two clicks in the browser context
23:42:17 [aleecia]
... would like consistent or standard, not through installation
23:42:34 [aleecia]
... third, technical measures along with non-tech, important to limit abuse
23:42:39 [peterswire]
q?
23:42:42 [aleecia]
... make sure it's the consumer making the choice and no one else.
23:42:54 [aleecia]
... spoken about tech measures and if they're feasible. Open question.
23:43:04 [npdoty]
ack Chris_IAB
23:43:05 [aleecia]
... Some measures can help, not sure there's a solution there.
23:43:07 [Chris_IAB]
q-
23:43:08 [johnsimpson]
q?
23:43:15 [aleecia]
... There are legal and policy that can help
23:43:34 [aleecia]
... Need to talk through specifics, and that's a critical item for DAA and companies I've been speaking with.
23:43:48 [aleecia]
... brief & neutral language was in DAA's announcement at the WH
23:43:56 [aleecia]
... very similar to what David just discussed.
23:44:35 [aleecia]
... 1. limits collection and use, 2. some data may still be collected and used with description, 3. if affirmatively consents won't limit collection & use from that entity -> convey to users
23:44:45 [aleecia]
... be clear to consumers what is, and what itsn't happening
23:45:09 [aleecia]
... more user friendly language, we should be able to come up with something simply and neutral, understandable to consumers
23:45:23 [aleecia]
... all come down to, consistency in the messaging, same place, same setting
23:45:28 [aleecia]
... consumers all have messaging
23:45:39 [aleecia]
... think that's a simple and readily available way to do it
23:46:01 [jmayer]
q+
23:46:01 [peterswire]
q?
23:46:06 [aleecia]
... this is simple, straight-forward, easy and meaningful. Everyone should be able to coalesce around
23:46:08 [npdoty]
q+
23:46:32 [aleecia]
Peter: thanks. Spoken with browser companies. Range of views, but Alex - we talked a little before. Any reaction from Mozilla?
23:46:33 [npdoty]
q-
23:47:02 [aleecia]
Alex: A lot of what's here is very reasonable
23:47:12 [aleecia]
... consistent with what we're trying to work toward
23:47:24 [aleecia]
... consistent about default being unset and providing information to users
23:47:41 [aleecia]
... have three-state settings. Comfortable not being part of first-run or install wizard
23:47:53 [aleecia]
... find reasonable and focused on informed choices.
23:48:11 [aleecia]
... concerned about technical mechanisms for extensions and add-ons that are common in FF experience, open to the discussion
23:48:30 [aleecia]
Sid: would could discuss a little more.
23:48:49 [aleecia]
... concerned with items 1 -3 in a digestible way that's not a wall of text
23:48:56 [aleecia]
... if we can work through that, it sounds reasonable
23:49:14 [aleecia]
Peter: before v. after the jump -- if we're making progress in other ways, can perhaps move some of that
23:49:27 [aleecia]
Alex: we would be supportive of actual user testing
23:49:36 [aleecia]
... what they react well to, what they don't, what's confusing to them
23:49:45 [aleecia]
... want to improve the current wording on three settings
23:50:00 [aleecia]
... real value to putting this out and working with actual users to make sure they understand in the choices they think they're making
23:50:02 [peterswire]
q?
23:50:19 [aleecia]
... if this group is willing to be iterative, we're willing to be a partner and work through it
23:50:46 [aleecia]
dsinger: very similar to Mozilla, not sure how to work it out, but will give it a good try
23:50:58 [peterswire]
q?
23:51:02 [aleecia]
... learning experience for parts 1 -3 in a fairly new field for online privacy
23:51:07 [johnsimpson]
q?
23:51:14 [npdoty]
q+
23:51:19 [Wileys]
Alex and Sid - would you consider changing the "Let Sites Track Me" option to "Allow sites that provide me free content to pay for their services by anonymously targeting personalized ads to me." This is a more balanced approach to providing fair information in the "step 1" before the "learn more" step 2.
23:51:20 [aleecia]
... puzzled by tech and non tech measures, not sure how to do that
23:51:29 [aleecia]
... fine place to move ahead
23:52:00 [aleecia]
Adrian: consent experience disucssion, agree we need to see how people respond to this
23:52:15 [aleecia]
... don't want to describe something that constrains future innovation
23:52:25 [aleecia]
... not sure we'll complete all the work needed while writing the specs
23:52:38 [aleecia]
... don't want to close off avenues to continue to innovate.
23:52:57 [sidstamm]
Wileys, what about the use cases of "tracking" that aren't related to ads?
23:52:57 [aleecia]
... agree we don't want huge terms & conditions with 20 multiple choice questions before you're allowed to use the setting.
23:52:59 [BerinSzoka]
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23:53:08 [aleecia]
... need easy to understand with a link for more info, in favor of that
23:53:18 [npdoty]
ack jmayer
23:53:32 [aleecia]
jmayer: focused on substance, how about the process?
23:53:33 [dan_auerbach]
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23:53:40 [peterswire]
q?
23:53:50 [BerinSzoka]
+1 to Shane. I don't see how "Tell sites that I want to be tracked" can possibly be a fair way to present that choice.
23:53:50 [haakonfb]
Opera has similar views/concerns as listed by the other browser vendors
23:53:51 [aleecia]
... suppose a browser UI is seen as not acceptable, who decides and what remedies?
23:53:54 [Wileys]
Sid, how many of those are there? Could those be explained in the "Learn More" - it appears the chief use case is the advertising one.
23:54:05 [aleecia]
... websites with self-help, or external?
23:54:11 [aleecia]
... or you always have to honor?
23:54:18 [dan_auerbach]
q?
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23:54:40 [aleecia]
Peter: one point, Adrian's point is a good reason to have functional criteria rather than 2013 technology. Write to be more tech neutral, will talk more later.
23:54:44 [Wileys]
Sid, as much as my proposed language doesn't FULLY cover all the details, it appears to be far more balanced to the "Tell Websites I don't want to be tracked" language.
23:54:53 [aleecia]
.... Second, what would the process be.
23:55:07 [aleecia]
... If tomorrow a browser did something outside what the standard said, it could do it.
23:55:22 [aleecia]
... but then folks who obligated themselves to agree to DNT:1 wouldn't need to be under that.
23:55:33 [aleecia]
jmayer: websites invididually?
23:55:54 [aleecia]
pswire: DAA, BBB could relieve a site of the obligation under their codes
23:56:10 [fwagner]
Shane, do expect that cookies would be described in the same way ?
23:56:14 [aleecia]
jmayer: hypotethically microsoft
23:56:33 [aleecia]
Stu: would integrate into DAA, enforceable by BBB and in many cases the FTC.
23:56:40 [Wileys]
Fwager, look at UA preference choices for Cookies and you'll see even less description.
23:56:42 [peterswire]
q?
23:56:48 [dwainberg]
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23:56:56 [aleecia]
... BBB viewed favorably and been around for many years. DMA more about companies into compliance
23:57:07 [strider]
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23:57:12 [npdoty]
"Tell sites I want to limit third-party [collection|tracking] of my browsing"
23:57:13 [aleecia]
.... BBB more as a public deterrent
23:57:19 [johnsimpson]
q?
23:57:21 [aleecia]
... 19 cases, companies changing business practices
23:57:30 [aleecia]
(Stu, please correct if I missed things there)
23:57:52 [peterswire]
q?
23:57:58 [johnsimpson]
q+
23:58:08 [jmayer]
So Microsoft is OK with websites ignoring DNT: 1 from IE 10+?
23:58:11 [Wileys]
Nick, more directly "Tell parties that support the websites I visit that I don't want to be tracked across websites."
23:58:17 [aleecia]
npdoty: In audience measurement, have own opt-outs with neutral language. Is this an opportunity?
23:58:23 [johnsimpson]
q?
23:58:33 [aleecia]
... would market research honor DNT:1 if they find the language neutral enough?
23:58:58 [aleecia]
... during market research we heard neutral language is important, would this help?
23:59:00 [justin]
ack npdoty
23:59:13 [jmayer]
I can't imagine that's right, especially given the recent round of advertising that "Your Privacy is Our Priority" in Internet Explorer.
23:59:14 [aleecia]
Peter: think this is separate. Is about the sending of the signal.
23:59:25 [aleecia]
... Not sure how it fits together.
23:59:37 [Lmastria_DAA]
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23:59:41 [aleecia]
Nick: thought Richard said the key thing for the opt out was describing how things work
23:59:41 [johnsimpson]
Q?
23:59:51 [justin]
jmayer, MSFT will receive feedback from the sites that reject their signals. I'm not sure they have made a statement about how they will treat those third parties.
23:59:52 [aleecia]
Susan: I don't own the issue, but I understand Nick's question
23:59:59 [npdoty]
thanks susan, for proving that I'm not crazy