19:53:42 RRSAgent has joined #dnt 19:53:42 logging to http://www.w3.org/2013/05/06-dnt-irc 19:53:46 Zakim has joined #dnt 19:54:39 npdoty has joined #dnt Chair: peterswire 19:54:53 bilcorry has joined #dnt 19:54:56 trackbot, start meeting 19:54:58 RRSAgent, make logs world 19:55:00 Zakim, this will be 19:55:00 I don't understand 'this will be', trackbot 19:55:01 Meeting: Tracking Protection Working Group Face-to-Face 19:55:01 Date: 06 May 2013 19:55:06 Zakim, this is 87225 19:55:06 npdoty, I see Team_(dnt)18:00Z in the schedule but not yet started. Perhaps you mean "this will be 87225". 19:55:11 Zakim, this will be 87225 19:55:11 ok, npdoty; I see Team_(dnt)18:00Z scheduled to start 115 minutes ago 19:56:21 Team_(dnt)18:00Z has now started 19:56:28 +[Apple] 19:56:54 Zakim, [Apple] has like 40 of us 19:56:54 +like, 40, of, us; got it 19:57:07 Richard_comScore has joined #dnt 19:57:23 Thomas_Schauf has joined #dnt 19:58:10 + +1.781.479.aaaa 19:58:42 Zakim, aaaa is me 19:58:42 +bilcorry; got it 19:58:48 Zakim, mute me 19:58:48 bilcorry should now be muted 19:59:13 Zakim, who is on the phone? 19:59:13 On the phone I see [Apple], bilcorry (muted) 19:59:14 [Apple] has like, 40, of, us 19:59:19 LMastria_DAA has joined #dnt 19:59:20 kulick has joined #dnt 19:59:55 PaulGlist_ has joined #dnt 19:59:57 fielding has joined #dnt 20:00:24 simon has joined #dnt 20:00:42 schunter has joined #dnt 20:00:45 adrianba has joined #dnt 20:01:02 Wileys has joined #dnt 20:01:49 Ari has joined #dnt 20:02:14 moneill2 has joined #dnt 20:02:32 jeffwilson has joined #dnt 20:02:49 Joanne has joined #DNT 20:02:54 meme has joined #dnt 20:02:57 +??P13 20:03:02 +Gregg_Vanderheiden 20:03:13 Zakim, ??P13 is schunter 20:03:13 +schunter; got it 20:03:16 zakin,[ipcaller] is me 20:03:29 zakim, [ipcaller] is me 20:03:29 sorry, moneill2, I do not recognize a party named '[ipcaller]' 20:04:18 JC has joined #DNT 20:04:38 rigo has joined #dnt 20:04:52 -Gregg_Vanderheiden 20:04:53 dan_auerbach has joined #dnt 20:04:56 strider has joined #dnt 20:05:02 paulohm has joined #dnt 20:05:08 jchester2 has joined #dnt 20:05:22 aleecia has joined #dnt 20:05:35 tara has joined #dnt 20:05:40 +[IPcaller] 20:05:42 zakim, [IPcaller] is me 20:05:42 +moneill2; got it 20:06:08 rachel_n_thomas has joined #dnt 20:06:09 justin has joined #dnt 20:06:17 johnsimpson has joined #dnt 20:07:02 BillScannell has joined #dnt 20:07:09 haakonfb has joined #DNT 20:07:12 dwainberg has joined #dnt 20:07:17 MT01 has joined #dnt 20:07:18 vinay has joined #dnt 20:08:10 susanisrael has joined #dnt 20:09:04 1 Infinite Loop, 15% apple hardware, 10% 3rd party; please don't get David fired. :-) 20:09:07 strider has joined #dnt 20:09:45 vincent has joined #dnt 20:09:50 WaltM_Comcast has joined #DNT 20:10:06 scribenick: npdoty 20:10:18 robsherman has joined #dnt 20:10:20 peter: we made a point of having break out rooms, in case smaller groups want to huddle, during breaks, etc. 20:10:22 johnsimpson has joined #dnt 20:10:26 ... talk to dsinger about the details there 20:10:44 rigo has joined #dnt 20:11:00 ... apologies for classroom style, the room got a little more full than the horseshoe plan 20:11:13 ... pretend you're all facing each other, looking eye to eye, for better conversations 20:11:17 ChrisPedigoOPA has joined #dnt 20:11:27 ... will give you an introduction, overview of things as I see it, just to set up 20:11:41 ... pleased to have Josh Chasin from ComScore to talk about audience measurement 20:11:50 Hefferjr has joined #dnt 20:11:54 ... Joe Turow, an expert from Penn on the phone may give brief reactions 20:12:07 ... a break, and then a session on item 6, browser settings 20:12:13 Yianni has joined #DNT 20:12:28 ... important because last face-to-face before Last Call, won't get another chance to bring everyone together before last call is my view 20:12:38 ... a lot of people working hard toward that, but just good to keep in mind 20:12:41 hwest has joined #dnt 20:12:51 Marc_ has joined #dnt 20:12:52 ... put some ratholes on the side 20:13:05 ... have a parking lot where we might come back to some important points on Tuesday afternoon/Wed morning 20:13:09 dstark has joined #dnt 20:13:11 ... the chair will cut off filibustering 20:13:48 ... in the self-interest of major stakeholder groups to pursue the framework 20:13:58 Chapell has joined #DNT 20:14:11 ... is this good public policy? economic efficiency; rights/autonomy/choice 20:14:23 ... if we win on economy and on autonomy, then that's a win for us 20:14:25 + +1.647.274.aabb 20:14:36 ... this is a draft, and a framework, doesn't have detailed language 20:14:41 Are there slides that have been posted? 20:14:45 ... this makes sense in my view, which is what I'll try to explain 20:14:56 Matthias - no slides 20:15:04 bryan has joined #dnt 20:15:11 ... is it a significant improvement of privacy and choice? can we explain it to users? can we get adoption? 20:15:20 haakonfb has left #dnt 20:15:26 haakonfb1 has joined #dnt 20:15:31 ... adoption, headers going out, but except for some like Twitter and AP, not getting a lot of third party adoption 20:15:48 ... if it's easy to use and technology neutral and it's globally adopted, that's a good outcome, and the intention of the draft framework 20:16:00 MarkVickers has joined #dnt 20:16:08 ... a public policy advantage of consensus agreement here: interoperability 20:16:38 ... leads to an efficiency outcome; upholds choice/rights because users get the choice they thought; and interoperability is a goal of W3C 20:16:46 prestia has joined #dnt 20:17:00 ... hugely distributed system, lots of browsers, first parties, third parties, etc. 20:17:23 ... negotiation of bilateral agreements of all of those is impossible, good place for standardization, a coordination function 20:17:33 ... both what it means to receive and what it means to send 20:17:37 fwagner has joined #dnt 20:17:46 ... having a one off of this is what it means to me isn't workable, that's the reason for standards 20:18:08 ... much of the work in the compliance spec is about receiving the signal, in particular about how it applies to third parties 20:18:23 ... haven't had as much discussion about the sending of the signal -- what the user sees and how the browser operates 20:18:36 ... in the draft framework, there's a series of things we'll discuss this week regarding sending 20:18:45 ... "a brief and neutral description" 20:18:57 rigo has joined #dnt 20:19:09 ... in a world where defaults and nudges matter (which is our world) 20:19:18 JHobaugh has joined #dnt 20:19:25 ... the group has long agreed that the DNT signal would be unset (not "off", an imprecision in earlier language) 20:19:27 fwagner_ has joined #dnt 20:19:33 kj has joined #dnt 20:19:52 ... from an economics point of view, the current equilibrium doesn't have agreement on sending/receiving and little user choice when sending a DNT signal 20:19:52 rigo has joined #dnt 20:20:06 ... could get worse through an arms race, people spend a lot of money and don't even get privacy and user choice at the end of it 20:20:18 afowler has joined #dnt 20:20:20 Bin_Hu has joined #dnt 20:20:29 present+ Bin_Hu 20:20:37 zakim, who is on the phone? 20:20:37 On the phone I see [Apple], bilcorry (muted), schunter, moneill2, +1.647.274.aabb 20:20:40 [Apple] has like, 40, of, us 20:20:47 ... if we have a standard, we could have effective choice 20:20:58 ... need to have a dependable standard, otherwise browsers and sites won't invest 20:21:12 dwainberg has joined #dnt 20:21:21 ... draft framework provides a structure for giving the dependability we want 20:21:42 ... "transaction-specific capital" 20:22:00 ... with this transaction, we need to invest together to make it work 20:22:20 [Oliver Williamson: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oliver_E._Williamson ] 20:22:40 ... imagine a ship and a dock, for the kind of thing we're shipping (specialized wheat) -- a specialized ship for dropping wheat efficiently and a specialized dock for receiving wheat efficiently 20:23:12 ... if they both invest in that specialization (expensive), get to a more efficient outcome 20:23:49 ... if the next day the dock-owner doubled the price (because of specialization), the ship owner would be "sad" (specific economic terminology) 20:24:07 ... if you're worried about that, you don't build the ship at all, and so we don't get the efficient outcome 20:24:45 ... different methods, but have to have trust 20:25:18 ... call the browsers a dock, for example, requires investment in building a feature for users that sends a DNT signal 20:25:53 ... and for sites and ships, sites/third parties have expenses to change back-end systems to receive DNT signal, but the concern is what if the sending of the signal suddenly changes 20:26:28 ... one of the concerns from the sites' side is that the description to the user or the default could change some day in the future 20:26:57 ... sites rationally won't invest if they don't have some confidence about future periods 20:27:58 ... if you preferred one group over another, you could tell one group that they could change the deal in the future, but that would actually undermine the deal for all 20:28:37 ... if we want the users to win (not unreasonable from a W3C point of view), we could set a standard that allowed the users to change every chance they get 20:28:51 ... but that could inhibit investment anyway 20:29:09 ... would undermine what you were trying to achieve in supporting users 20:29:26 haakonfb1 has left #dnt 20:29:28 haakonfb1 has joined #dnt 20:29:45 20:29:57 topic: draft framework 20:30:11 peter: talk about some of the browser and site issues in the draft framework, how it looks for users 20:30:58 ... take two clicks to turn on Do Not Track (one to get the settings, one to change the setting), similar to how cookie policies are changed or how Do Not Call list works 20:31:15 ... if it's hidden away where no one will use it, that might be bad for users 20:31:44 ... based on Mozilla's stats, Firefox sees double-digit adoption, even though it's not widely advertised, people are turning it on 20:32:00 ... it is easy to use, even easier if groups were willing to educate users on their web sites 20:32:40 ... could be different stable and transparent ways to say what will happen on the send and on the receive side 20:32:47 ... Tuesday morning we'll talk about how that fits into the TPE 20:33:09 ... what if one side tries to change the rules in "Period 2" (sometime later) 20:33:18 ... browsers are not mandated to comply with the standard, no legal requirement 20:33:39 + +1.215.898.aacc 20:33:40 ... one thing that could happen is that sites could respond with a "D" signal, indicating that they don't think it's compliant 20:33:55 zakim, who is on the phone? 20:33:55 On the phone I see [Apple], bilcorry (muted), schunter, moneill2, +1.647.274.aabb, +1.215.898.aacc 20:33:57 [Apple] has like, 40, of, us 20:33:57 Zakim, aacc may be Turow 20:33:57 +Turow?; got it 20:34:11 q? 20:34:42 ... browsers can still compete on all other aspects of the browser experience 20:34:48 ... browsers can still leave DNT entirely if they don't think it helps users 20:34:59 ... there's another possible part of the framework, regarding cookie blocking 20:35:25 ... from Jonathan's blog first published, browsers could not block third party cookies for sites that are compliant with DNT 20:35:45 ... browsers could then have a story for their users that the site is either respecting user choice (through DNT) or cookies are blocked 20:36:10 ... gives sites a carrot to come in, to get the benefit of third-party cookies from more browsers 20:36:18 ... have transparent, stable rules 20:36:38 ... for the user: what if there's do DNT standard? 20:36:50 ... can turn on the signal but it doesn't have an affect, or have the arms race 20:37:07 ... haven't seen another package that gets users that higher equilibrium 20:37:11 ... how can we improve things over time? 20:37:31 ... something like the Draft Framework can bring in investment from browsers and sites 20:37:43 ... but one major concern remained around unique ID cookies 20:37:51 ... I asked last week for any additional plans that could address that 20:38:10 ... we'll talk about that more tomorrow afternoon, and about audience measurement in just a few minutes 20:38:21 ... very simple: if you turn DNT on, you don't have a unique ID following you around the Web 20:38:35 ... could be that we can get close to that now and better in later periods 20:38:53 ... last Wednesday, I said we had an outcome that is rational for all stakeholders 20:39:05 ... today I've said there is an economically efficient outcome 20:39:13 ... a lot of you have been working hard, talking within your own groups 20:39:42 ... we can do something better for policy and for all our stakeholders 20:39:55 q? 20:40:01 ... invite Josh Chasin, Chief Research Officer for ComScore, to talk about audience measurement 20:41:14 rvaneijk: before we move on, can we talk about the agenda? do we need to fix it right now? 20:41:27 topic: agenda 20:41:36 peter: audience measurement that's been a common topic 20:41:50 ... then have david singer talk about some browser discussions about neutral presentation and common resources 20:42:05 ... Stu Ingis available remotely to talk from a distant about some Item 6 issues around browsers 20:42:23 ... tomorrow morning, Matthias and David leading, with some questions about technical measures around Item 6 (browser restrictions and labeling) 20:42:36 ... tomorrow afternoon can talk more about specific areas around unique IDs, some work on facts in that area 20:42:43 haakonfb1 has left #dnt 20:42:54 ... Tuesday afternoon and Wednesday morning can allow deeper dives into particular issues 20:43:11 ... for example, perhaps around term of "browser" vs. "user agent" 20:43:31 ... if you have suggestions of particular topics to be sure for us to touch on, write them down 20:43:44 ... Wednesday afternoon we will have a "where are we now" meeting 20:44:03 ... have we made enough progress that it's worth going to normative text, is there some other path, or is it really frankly not there 20:44:24 ... that's a serious conversation, that I've tried to prepare people for 20:44:27 haakonfb has joined #dnt 20:44:58 rvaneijk: list major items (parking lot / elephants) on this paper setup? peter: yes, we can start now. 20:45:09 peter: user agents vs. browsers 20:45:14 ... more on unique IDs 20:45:26 ... Where Are We Now 20:45:32 zakim, who is making noise? 20:45:34 ... are there other deep dives to put on the list right now? 20:45:44 tlr, listening for 10 seconds I heard sound from the following: [Apple] (29%) 20:46:33 http://www.w3.org/2011/tracking-protection/sunnyvale/audience-measurement.pdf 20:46:40 (also linked from the agenda) 20:46:46 Topic: Audience Measurement 20:47:05 josh: Josh Chasin, Chief Research Officer at comScore, for the past 6 years 20:47:22 ... worked in TV, radio, newspaper, billboard, Internet audience measurement, a "lifer" 20:47:27 joeT has joined #dnt 20:47:46 Zakim, drop aabb 20:47:46 +1.647.274.aabb is being disconnected 20:47:48 - +1.647.274.aabb 20:48:06 ... ask for a presentation from ESOMAR, I drew the short straw ;) 20:48:18 peterswire has joined #dnt 20:48:20 ... define audience measurement, explain what it is we actually do 20:48:33 zakim, who is on the phone? 20:48:33 On the phone I see [Apple], bilcorry (muted), schunter, moneill2, Turow? 20:48:35 [Apple] has like, 40, of, us 20:48:36 zakim, mute schunter 20:48:36 schunter should now be muted 20:48:39 zakim, mute moneill2 20:48:39 moneill2 should now be muted 20:48:41 zakim, mute Turow? 20:48:41 Turow? should now be muted 20:49:16 josh: measurement audiences are not a priori known, with radio, for example, it's just broadcast, and so you just have to measure, estimate, count 20:49:17 + +1.647.274.aadd 20:49:26 (thank you Roy!) 20:49:39 who is the caller from ontario? 20:49:53 ... most media is ad-supported, advertisers and media companies need to know who the audience is in order to sell ads 20:49:58 ... information facilitates commerce 20:50:26 ... history of audience measurement, radio as a medium, no one was sure if it work for advertising 20:50:51 ... a company did survey the day-after (which stations did you listen to yesterday?), which enabled advertising 20:51:11 ... initially radio was there to sell radios (the hardware), but subsequently the commercial purpose of radio changed 20:51:44 ... more recently "naturally occurring data" -- set-top boxes create data as the watching is actually happening 20:52:32 ... NYT sports section, with a particular ad on the front of the section, an upscale watch ad for men 20:52:43 schunter2 has joined #dnt 20:53:07 ... didn't know it was me, but knew that men tended to skew male, and that the NYT has an upscale audience, contextual because the story is about the derby and the ad is about their support 20:53:14 ... can we all agree that this is generally okay? 20:53:41 ... but would be a problem if this ad said, "hey josh, I know you aren't wearing a watch, call this phone number just for you" 20:54:03 ... all advertising and all marketing is targeted, but the question is more about micro-targeting, embedding data about a user through a cookie 20:54:35 ... audience measurement doesn't support cookie targeting; if you're doing cookie targeting, you don't need audience measurement 20:54:48 ... the two are anathema to one another 20:55:01 rigo has joined #dnt 20:55:07 ... in practice, how do we integrate panel data with site census data 20:55:23 ... calibrating the panel data, or integrating panel and census data 20:55:48 ... weighting or sample-balancing; weighting is a calibration 20:56:42 ... table comparing panel demographics with government datasets and telephone surveys 20:58:01 ... my recruitment panel is underrepresenting the young male audience; we are required to address with weighting 20:58:52 ... apply a weight based on that ratio, calibrate the panel to a known universe 20:59:35 BillScannell has joined #dnt 21:00:02 ... similar, weight based on how many panel hits are on a particular site, vs. how many "beacon" hits / page views from that site 21:00:54 ... after calibrating the panel, panel projections will more closely match the universe 21:01:34 ... weight the panelists based on some sites which have beacons, even for sites that don't place comScore beacons on the page 21:02:53 ... holistic, hybrid integration -- Randall Rothenberg, IAB CEO surprised that we still rely on panels, which are such an old technology 21:03:25 ... so move more towards "site-centric audience measurement" 21:04:05 ... count the number of cookies observed on a site that places tags on their site 21:04:43 ... filter by country to a number of cookies, normalize via the panel on how many cookies per person 21:05:22 ... demographics come from the panel, not from the cookie-based census style 21:06:03 if a person has multiple cookies does this represent multiple devices they use? 21:06:03 ... we don't use, or attempt to know, anything about the people behind these cookies 21:06:39 ... just counting cookies, don't believe "counting" is "tracking" 21:07:19 ... consequence (of DNT inhibiting audience measurement) is not users seeing less relevant ads, but instead advertising going away 21:07:42 moneill2, unless the cookies are associated to a panelist (opt-in), there would be no way to tell if different cookies belonged to the same user and/or if there were multiple cookies for the same device (post cookie clearing) 21:07:47 q? 21:07:57 ... because advertisers would take business elsewhere if they can't get sufficient information about placing ads on which sites 21:08:10 zakim, mute apple 21:08:10 [Apple] should now be muted 21:08:14 ack apple 21:08:16 jmayer has joined #dnt 21:08:19 Why would they go to TV where you can't do that level of calibration? 21:08:22 q+ 21:08:25 +q 21:08:29 q+ 21:08:30 +q 21:08:34 nomber of cookies deleted or number of devices/browsers per person is an expected statistic of the popultion so could be determined by survey/ 21:09:09 peter: there is normative language, Kathy Joe's version from March 27th 21:09:15 q? 21:09:59 ... permitted use for audience measurement: (would be in place of current market research exception at daa as well) 21:10:13 http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-tracking/2013Mar/0335.html 21:10:31 strider has joined #dnt 21:10:31 ... doesn't apply unless you're calibrating or otherwise supporting panels 21:11:00 ... with MUST restrictions, de-identified, no longer than 53 weeks, no independent purpose, industry self-reg certification 21:11:22 mecallahan has joined #dnt 21:11:38 ... a lot of different representations and restrictions than in the previous version of the DAA code, I see this as a lot of new work 21:12:30 jchester: thanks to Joe Turow for agreeing to talk, very few academics in the country that have looked at advertising the way he has 21:12:39 ... reaching out to Joe because of the evolving nature of market research 21:12:50 zakim, who is muted? 21:12:50 I see bilcorry, schunter, moneill2, Turow? muted 21:12:53 Zakim, ack Turoq 21:12:53 I see jmayer, dan_auerbach, rvaneijk, jchester on the speaker queue 21:12:54 ack Turow 21:12:57 Zakim, ack Turow 21:12:57 I see jmayer, dan_auerbach, rvaneijk, jchester on the speaker queue 21:13:20 + +1.202.257.aaee 21:13:27 Turow: flattered and humbled, thanks to Josh for his presentation 21:13:51 ... given that comScore just counts, rather than looking at cookies, is an interesting point 21:14:18 ... formulation ("calibrate or otherwise support") seems to enable different functionality, weight with demographics or psychographics or behavioral activity 21:14:32 or geolocation 21:15:01 ... there may be some people who don't want to help comScore, Nielsen, etc. -- someone may well say I don't think these companies deserve my help 21:15:45 ... comScore and Nielsen numbers are very different from one another, tens of thousands of people or rankings different, am I, by being part of this sample, supporting a specious rating system? to what extent does an individual have autonomy to choose whether to be part of that? 21:16:03 ... and what does "otherwise support" and what "calibrate" might mean? 21:16:11 strider has joined #dnt 21:16:21 q? 21:16:37 ... don't believe advertisers would abandon the Internet for radio, given the lack of information detail on radio (regarding diaries) 21:16:46 zakim, mute turow 21:16:46 Turow? should now be muted 21:17:16 ack turow 21:17:17 jchester2: panel concept is being transformed, what is the changing nature of panels, big data, and predictive optimization? 21:17:43 Turow: depends on how you want to define "calibrate and otherwise support" regarding actuarial activities 21:18:19 ... does the person want to be part of it? not a question of whether it's evil or not evil to participate 21:18:20 rigo has joined #dnt 21:18:49 ... I would expect that the rating system today won't be the same in 5 years, more likely to move towards an individual census (citing Rothenberg) 21:19:04 -q 21:19:13 BerinSzoka has joined #DNT 21:19:25 +q 21:19:25 +q 21:19:35 Josh: might just be that better language is possible, not married to it 21:19:55 peter: how open-ended is "calibrate"? 21:20:46 Josh: wanted to explain what we do now, "calibration" may have a more general meaning -- you might instead want to define what not occur 21:21:42 ... with TV, calibrate by surveys, even for people that don't live in TV households 21:21:53 ... calibrate their sample to play back to known universe values 21:22:20 ... calibrating our panels to known behaviors in the universe 21:22:42 ... weighting, confirming or aligning results in the panel to known phenomena in the universe 21:23:43 ... if you had a panel about who was driving where but you also had some known counting of how many people drive down a certain road, of course you will weight your sample to that -- the question is "what may be known?" 21:23:59 ... behooves us to weight/calibrate to known numbers 21:24:42 ... regarding the question of whether users don't want to participate -- would actually make comScore and Nielsen results more different 21:25:01 I hope we're not going to shoot down questions about ownership of data 21:25:02 q+ 21:25:10 ... and whose data is it, anyway? [perhaps a tough audience] shouldn't CNN have the right to count its visitors and let comScore know 21:25:32 so Jeff just gets a free pass to interrupt? can the rest of us do that, too? 21:26:29 no 21:26:40 is dislike of ratings a tracking issue? 21:26:43 THIS IS NOT RELEVANT 21:26:55 q? 21:26:56 Turow: numbers are off in comparing multiple audience measurement providers 21:27:10 rigo has joined #dnt 21:27:20 ... so a user might say that we don't want to be part of this 21:27:31 strider has joined #dnt 21:27:50 q? 21:27:59 -bilcorry 21:28:06 ack jmayer 21:28:30 jmayer: clarifying, who are the panel users, how do they come to be in the panel, what is the software like and what is the consent? 21:29:12 Can we limit questions to those that are relevant to DNT and not panel studies in general or comScore probing? 21:29:14 Richard_comScore: 2 million people have signed up for comScore's panel, individuals opt-in, displayed a communication about scope, accept the terms and install the software 21:29:21 ack dan_auerbach 21:29:43 dan_auerbach: thanks for presenting; when consumers opt in to a panel, users could send DNT:0, set aside for now 21:30:11 -Turow? 21:30:37 ... what's the harm of losing the DNT:1 data? weighting to the universe of site-centric data -- could you adjust in collecting that site-centric census data? 21:30:51 rigo has joined #dnt 21:31:07 You can still use the beacon hits --- you just can't correlate across sites. 21:31:16 + +1.215.898.aaff - is perhaps Turow? 21:31:30 ... throwing away data not from the panelists, but data from the beacon hits -- if you have a statistically prior data set, couldn't you still successfully do the correlation? 21:31:36 + +1.408.223.aagg 21:31:56 Zakim, aagg is me 21:31:56 +bilcorry; got it 21:32:08 Zakim, please mute me 21:32:08 bilcorry should now be muted 21:32:35 josh: that might be fine now, but what will the effect be if the DNT adoption rate is 95% 21:32:46 schunter has joined #dnt 21:32:51 dan_auerbach: even 5% might be enough, happy to talk about Bayesian/frequentist approach 21:33:59 rachel_n_thomas: my concern is about asking an expert about market research, if dan's question is implying that the expert doesn't know what he's talking about.... 21:34:11 q+ 21:34:13 q+ 21:34:22 I can give a naive answer to the question posed: who owns the data? If a shop records how many people visit, how long they stay, and what they buy, that's their data. If someone records what shops I visit, how long I stay, what I buy, that's my data. If there is a record of my visit to specific shop, that's shared data. Maybe this is obvious... 21:34:31 q? 21:34:40 zakim, who is on the phone? 21:34:40 On the phone I see [Apple], schunter (muted), moneill2 (muted), +1.647.274.aadd, +1.202.257.aaee, Turow?, bilcorry (muted) 21:34:42 [Apple] has like, 40, of, us 21:35:14 josh: if a DNT:1 user comes and I can't set a cookie, can I still count the request? that's what happens now, with cookie churn 21:35:16 or a short duration (<24 hrs?) cookie 21:35:20 ack rvaneijk 21:35:20 dsinger: the law says otherwise in most countries, especially if they photograph you 21:35:53 q? 21:35:58 rvaneijk: re, what can be known with counting? regarding behavioral-centric metrics 21:36:20 ... a whole list in @@JIGS@@ web metrics document, how does that relate to the counting? 21:36:21 if they photo me, that's no longer 'their' data, is it? 21:37:15 josh: right now video duration comes from the panel 21:38:00 q? 21:38:42 Marc_ has joined #dnt 21:38:47 rvaneijk: also the question of what would be a good price for a particular ad, given the context 21:39:22 Q? 21:39:57 q+ 21:40:01 josh: regarding cookie targeting of ads ... see what sites have duplication with the New York Times 21:40:41 rvaneijk: take it offline. 21:40:46 ack BerinSzoka 21:40:49 q? 21:41:44 BerinSzoka: regarding expert witnesses, important assertion about the substitution effect of online advertising for other forms of advertising and the effect on revenue 21:42:03 q+ 21:42:12 ... could get economic data on that, but we shouldn't dismiss it if we don't like it 21:42:17 ... should have more economic data 21:42:36 ... this is the single most important thing I've heard yet, want to make sure it's not lost 21:42:56 To be clear, I have asked for more data on this issue FOR A LONG TIME. 21:43:06 s/more/any 21:43:21 If I understood the introduction correctly, Mr. Chasin's expertise is in market measurement, not the economic analysis of online advertising markets and privacy controls. 21:43:22 josh: IAB program about making measurement make sense, transparency/accountability 21:43:41 Justin, right there with you. Quite strange given the industry's quantitative emphasis. 21:44:19 ... wrote blog posts, found that they did a really good job, advertisers felt hamstrung, that more information would bring more money in 21:44:36 ... publicly documented work that Bain did 21:45:10 q? 21:45:14 ack jchester 21:45:40 +rachel_n_thomas 21:45:47 q+ 21:46:02 afowler has joined #dnt 21:46:18 jchester: 3MS is acknowledgment about shift to multiplatform environment, digital and out-of-home; concern about move to real-time full census environment 21:46:22 ... where might this be in 5 years? 21:46:29 If there's a link, I would appreciate it. I can't find anything doing a search for BAIN or 3MS on the mailing list. 21:47:26 josh: would be better to use "breadcrumb" than "cookie", the forces at play from the research companies are employing data assets to provide solutions for buyers and sellers of advertising 21:47:28 +q 21:47:55 ... research companies look as data assets as input into audience measurement models 21:48:05 http://www.iab.net/mmms (5 seconds on google) 21:48:17 http://www.measurementnow.net/ 21:48:19 ... consumer concern is a limiter / governor of what we can do 21:48:42 ack aleecia 21:49:57 aleecia: two groups: an opt-in panel and census visitors who aren't aware. josh: yes. 21:50:31 aleecia: consent always trumps DNT:1, regarding the panel, you're good -- still some technical issues about how to let users know 21:50:45 ... only dealing with the size of the census, whether the census includes data from DNT:1 or not 21:50:58 presumably also whether the census can identify users (user agents or devices) 21:51:33 ... already have service provider provision, standing in the shoes of first parties, can still collect data as long as it's not combining data with visitors from other sites 21:51:34 So... are we not going to do introductions of participants? There are some new faces here 21:52:49 ... so how much of a problem is it, given that service providers can collect data for each first party? 21:53:02 aleeca, doesn't that contradict the idea thta service provider provides services only to and for the first party? 21:53:16 Josh: if this provision enables us to do what we do, then that's the research exemption we need. 21:53:21 -Turow? 21:53:23 Still trying to find the data in those links. 21:54:02 aleecia: you offer an opt-out today, how does your current opt-out differ? 21:54:25 josh: defer to Richard. Richard_comScore: we do have individual opt-outs, with information about what our data collection is, on our web sites 21:55:08 Actually, no: I was looking for an answer on that. 21:55:42 q? 21:55:43 Richard_comScore: also proposed to create an omnibus site regarding all market research sites, to explain and have an opt-out 21:55:46 ack paulohm 21:55:47 q? 21:56:08 paulohm: if the census isn't to provide richness, you could do that without any identifiers or exceptions, right? 21:56:24 ... you don't need an identifier in the cookie 21:56:30 josh: yes, the cookie could be empty 21:56:41 after the break, the original Unfrozen Caveman Lawyer (me) v Unfrozen Caveman Policy Lawyer (Paul)... outside... to the death... 21:57:12 -q 21:57:13 So have we solved this now? 21:57:36 paulohm: to confirm, you don't need to know anything about the cookie, just aggregate by country, so we're all agreed 21:57:47 susanisrael: I thought what paulohm said was correct 21:57:52 Does anyone want to stand up and say why individual cross-site correlation is necessary? 21:57:53 short duration identifiers when DNT:1 is fine. 21:57:53 peter: having agreement break out is a good thing 21:58:02 For census-level calibration? 21:58:31 josh: it's going to have a unique-identifier, but don't embed any characteristics with that cookie 21:59:16 a unique id but how long does it last? 21:59:30 peter: okay, no data associated. so why do you need a unique identifier? 21:59:52 josh: need to measure cookie deletion 22:00:03 q? 22:00:13 measure by survey? 22:00:43 ... need to know that it's not the same cookie as last time 22:00:45 ack susanisrael 22:00:46 +q 22:00:53 q- 22:01:15 susanisrael: we've discussed freq. capping as a permitted use, require some exceptions even when users don't want to be tracked 22:01:16 +q 22:01:24 ... need to know if someone is re-sending a cookie or if it's a new viewer 22:02:03 if DNT:1 they have opted out 22:02:09 ... does it matter if there's some opt-out of your cookies? was your response, up to a point it's fine, but with a big number it would be a problem? josh: yes. 22:02:12 dwainberg has joined #dnt 22:02:18 q? 22:02:59 N.B. for frequency capping we were talking about scoped to one party only. 22:03:00 ... if someone doesn't like advertising or some player on the Internet, is that really part of tracking? 22:03:03 The scorecardresearch.com cookies on my browser include a UID (persistent to 2038 -- 32bit max date) and a UIDR (persistent for two years) 22:03:13 q+ 22:03:16 ack jmayer 22:03:38 q+ 22:03:52 jmayer: understanding non-panelists visitors, is it right that unique ID cookies are used to count the number of unique visitors to a page? 22:04:30 josh: we count unique cookies, and then use the panel to count the number of people 22:04:36 This could be done with first-party cookies then, yes. 22:04:46 aleecia, when did we say that frequency counting is per party? It usually isn't in practice. 22:05:01 q? 22:05:14 jmayer: alternatives: a cookie with just the number of times the visitor has seen the page, that's a first pass response although there could be other techniques 22:05:21 ... a way that moves away from unique identifiers 22:05:24 That was the discussion around frequency capping with double-keyed cookies, which is where we left things last time we talked about the topic in any serious way 22:05:54 josh: I'm not sure about the technology, one criterion, having a tag on the page must not effect the user experience of loading a page 22:06:07 oh, the double key was the campaign ID, not the site, IIRC 22:06:24 Roy you are correct - my error. 22:06:42 jmayer: I don't think it would affect the loading of a page 22:06:49 ... you would still have the numbers you need? josh: perhaps. 22:07:02 We had left the dialog with "what's a campaign?" not nailed down. 22:07:17 q? 22:07:26 Joanne has joined #DNT 22:07:27 As I understand it, in talking about whether we want to create/allow a permitted use for audience measurement, what we are trying to determine is whether this is important enough to the operation of the internet that the aggregate counting should be permitted, despite a user's desire not to be tracked. And furthermore, I think we are hearing that the counting here may not even be tracking. 22:07:35 ack LMastria_DAA 22:07:52 schunter has joined #dnt 22:07:54 LMastria_DAA: need to reign in hypotheticals, hear from Josh, this will be a subject for further exploration 22:08:01 so for the minutes: would only need to know the number, as a counter and if the technology provided for this, unique IDs would not be necessary. 22:08:15 ... hypotheticals that may or may not occur or technologies that may or may not work 22:08:46 peter: this discussion is important to the draft framework, helps to inform how we look at the framework 22:09:17 @LU, it is important to discuss proportionality of the uniqe id's connected to audience measurements and to explore subsidiarity, for DNT needs to be future proof. 22:09:21 q? 22:09:26 ... the topic of unique ids in general is quite strong discussion for us in general, unique IDs is the area we've seen the most focus on 22:09:35 q? 22:09:40 LMastria_DAA: solutioneering it here might not be the best 22:09:42 ack rachel_n_thomas 22:09:45 Chris_IAB has joined #dnt 22:10:01 q? 22:10:04 +q 22:10:06 rachel_n_thomas: spec shouldn't have specific technologies in the language 22:10:11 ack jchester 22:10:13 the question is whether the bsuinesses on the Internet need audience measurement in order to operate, just as they need financial accounting, frequency capping, fraud detection and other things that we have deemed to justify permitted uses. 22:10:20 I think the point is that it sounds like you could accomplish everything that Josh is describing under the "service provider" language, so you wouldn't need a separate market research exception. 22:10:49 jchester: how do you work on the mobile environment? 22:11:11 q? 22:11:13 I believe that the reference to other companies was not necessarily a reference to other audience measurement companies? 22:11:18 josh: can't speak to Nielsen 22:11:47 http://www.comscore.com/Products/Audience_Analytics/GSMA_Mobile_Media_Metrics_MMM 22:12:00 Q? 22:12:04 ... have multiple mobile panels, iOS, Android, tablet, etc. 22:12:26 Justin, I don't understand the service provider provision to operate the way Aleecia suggested it does. My understanding of what is permitted under this provision is actually much more limited. 22:12:39 q? 22:12:45 ack dan_auerbach 22:12:54 q- 22:13:01 GSMA Mobile Media Metrics provides a powerful view of the who, what and where of the mobile web to give publishers more comprehensive measurement and advertisers more extensive media reach data. 22:13:19 cant hear anything 22:13:26 dan_auerbach: didn't mean to make you feel more unwelcome here. josh: didn't feel that way at all. 22:13:42 dan_auerbach: software running on users' computers that is making requests to users' computers 22:13:51 ... any challenge to that software altering outgoing headers 22:14:03 josh: need an engineer to answer that. [follow up offline] 22:14:32 Q? 22:14:33 Richard_comScore: in general, researchers don't want to modify an experience, only monitor 22:14:35 ack Wileys 22:14:41 susanisrael, Well, the more important point (for me) would be that you could do it all through first-party cookies. If you're just trying to count uniques to EACH website, not ACROSS websites. 22:15:27 Wileys: since it wouldn't effect the personal experience, wouldn't have any of the yet-to-be-defined harm, just have the question of whether unique IDs are necessary 22:15:51 ... for other audience measurement groups, use census data across single-site counting issue [so would need unique IDs] 22:15:56 Ah, thanks WileyS, I figured it wouldn't be that easy. 22:15:57 But the first party could not provide that information to a third party. And there is mistrust of first parties providing their own measurement. That's one of the reasons third parties do it. 22:16:19 ... recommendations have come to approach novel technologies that would let us move away from unique identifiers 22:16:46 susanisrael, I was thinking more along the lines of what Omniture and Google Analytics do, but WileyS points out that wouldn't be sufficient for what a lot of companies do (though it would be useful to hear an ESOMAR member explain that). 22:16:48 ... unproven at scale, would require expense to make the shift, overinvestment with little guarantee of return 22:16:56 justin, were you looking for http://www.iab.net/insights_research/industry_data_and_landscape/digital_pricing_research 22:17:17 ... have offered in the past to enter into a parallel discussion or Lab to move down that path, prove to our engineers that this is how to make the move 22:17:21 ... can't sign a blank check on day one 22:17:23 q? 22:17:51 ... not realistic for a July Last Call 22:18:05 justin, when a service provider does that for a first party, it does it only for/to the first party. Not for disclosure to others, if it's just a service provider. 22:18:06 -schunter 22:18:08 - +1.647.274.aadd 22:18:09 peter: unique id, what can credibly be done now vs. down the road? 22:19:04 susanisrael, They could use aggregate data. But I would be fine revising to make clear that first party cookies are OK for market research. 22:19:10 Wileys: hard to commit to an unknown future. people conceptually like the Lab concept, but pushback that this is a "one time" situation (under regulatory, market and press pressure) 22:19:17 q? 22:19:20 This is the level of difficulty associated with many privacy-preserving approaches: https://github.com/jonathanmayer/Tracking-Not-Required/blob/master/conversion-measurement/ConversionMeasure.js 22:19:29 ... fear then that the Lab effort would dissipate 22:19:36 Justin, let's take the conversation offline later. 22:19:40 We aren't talking about lab hypotheticals. We're talking about trivial JavaScript. 22:19:50 the nice thing for ComScore is it's not like they need to do a real time auction 22:19:52 fielding, I thought this was what he was discussing --- (though not precise as to the value of calibration): http://www.iab.net/media/file/BAIN_BRIEF_Digital_Advertising_4-19-10_FINAL.pdf 22:19:53 I note there are chocolate chip COOKIES waiting for us all outside. since Apple blocks third party cookies, I assume they were baked on premise. Caveat emptor! (Also, note there's whole milk) 22:19:55 q? 22:20:31 22:20:41 justin, could be … I wasn't paying attention to why the mention came up 22:21:20 peter: a bunch of things that people might be able to get on board for this week, and others that are unknown 22:21:50 I just want a sense of how mission critical the calibration is to measurement. But it sounds like the answer is perhaps entirely dependent upon the level of DNT adoption . . . 22:22:02 ... if people can figure out a concrete, credible structure, I think that could be a way forward 22:22:09 ... that may be the best I've heard so far 22:22:28 [on break until 4pm] 22:22:30 -moneill2 22:22:34 rrsagent, please draft the minutes 22:22:34 I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2013/05/06-dnt-minutes.html npdoty 22:22:37 Zakim, who is on the phone? 22:22:37 On the phone I see [Apple], +1.202.257.aaee, bilcorry (muted) 22:22:38 [Apple] has like, 40, of, us 22:22:42 Zakim, drop aaee 22:22:42 +1.202.257.aaee is being disconnected 22:22:43 - +1.202.257.aaee 22:31:03 Thomas_Schauf has joined #dnt 22:44:22 justin has joined #dnt 22:45:44 + +1.202.344.aahh 22:47:45 strider has joined #dnt 22:52:31 afowler has joined #dnt 22:53:17 prestia has joined #dnt 22:53:58 simon has joined #dnt 22:59:05 +[IPcaller] 22:59:17 zakim, [IPCaller] is me 22:59:17 +moneill2; got it 23:00:15 nick --sorry was on another call. mary ellen callahan is the DC cell phone. 23:00:34 zakim, who is on the phone? 23:00:34 On the phone I see [Apple], bilcorry (muted), +1.202.344.aahh, moneill2 23:00:36 [Apple] has like, 40, of, us 23:01:42 + +1.202.257.aaii 23:01:52 aaii mecallahan 23:03:29 zakim. aaii is mecallahan 23:03:35 jchester2 has joined #dnt 23:03:43 zakim, aaii is mecallahan 23:03:43 +mecallahan; got it 23:04:27 strider has joined #dnt 23:06:13 fielding has joined #dnt 23:07:11 Zakim, who is on the phone? 23:07:11 On the phone I see [Apple], bilcorry (muted), +1.202.344.aahh, moneill2, mecallahan 23:07:13 [Apple] has like, 40, of, us 23:09:53 Zakim, aahh is StuIngis 23:09:53 +StuIngis; got it 23:11:03 we're gathering, start within 5 minutes; (1) wrap up of prior session; (2) david singer; (3) DAA 23:11:13 strider has joined #dnt 23:11:44 johnsimpson has joined #dnt 23:12:08 prestia has joined #dnt 23:12:45 q? 23:13:08 BillScannell has joined #dnt 23:13:11 Zakim, who is on the phone? 23:13:11 On the phone I see [Apple], bilcorry (muted), StuIngis, moneill2, mecallahan 23:13:13 [Apple] has like, 40, of, us 23:13:28 hwest has joined #dnt 23:13:44 aleecia has joined #dnt 23:13:50 topic: schedule 23:14:01 For JC, the agenda has: Dinner on your own, but meet for drinks at Firehouse Brewery, 111 South Murphy. 23:14:10 ChrisPedigoOPA has joined #dnt 23:14:12 peter: available until Wednesday afternoon, we can do Where are We Now earlier if ready 23:14:18 paulohm has joined #dnt 23:14:26 Yianni has joined #DNT 23:14:33 Joanne has joined #DNT 23:14:42 nick I could 23:15:55 scribenick: aleecia 23:16:07 peter: three pieces 23:16:11 ... 1. wrap up 23:16:15 2. dsinger, browsers 23:16:20 zakim, who is on the phone? 23:16:20 On the phone I see [Apple], bilcorry (muted), StuIngis, moneill2, mecallahan 23:16:22 BillScannell has joined #dnt 23:16:23 [Apple] has like, 40, of, us 23:16:24 3. Stu by phone, ad perspective 23:16:46 ... on market research, helpful info and Q&A, possible follow up later with other companies 23:16:58 ... next, looking at action items from last session 23:17:21 sidstamm has joined #dnt 23:17:35 ... one piece of text: calibrate or otherwise support. Would be constructive to have a task to understand "otherwise support" from industry who worked on the text. 23:17:39 ... make this less vague. 23:17:51 ... other issues related to the text? Justin, then Rob 23:18:05 Justin: getting more data about how important? 23:18:38 Peter: if 10% DNT, 50%, or 90% DNT, how would this change? Any data we know of? 23:18:40 rigo has joined #dnt 23:18:44 q+ rvaneijk 23:18:47 q+ jchester 23:18:52 q? 23:19:01 Richard: Esomar will work on that 23:19:22 Roy: more normative text on the problem we're solving, need justification for audience measurement to be an exception. Not sure the problem we're solving. 23:19:23 Richard_comScore, can we give you two actions? (one on updated text regarding "otherwise support"; one on additional data) 23:19:30 Susan: Allows us to be in business. 23:19:35 ... that's the problem it solves. 23:19:42 s/Roy/Rob/ 23:19:46 Chris: Siri, what is track? 23:19:51 Siri: silence 23:20:04 Siri: I'm sorry, Chris, but I can't let you do that. 23:20:09 Peter: there was a pool, it took 3 hours 20 seconds to raise that 23:20:24 q+ 23:20:39 For the compliance standard: 23:20:41 "Tracking" is understood by this standard as the collection and retention of data across multiple parties' domains or services in a form such that it can be attributed to a specific user, user agent, or device. 23:20:51 Rob: if we do need an exception, that would be a bad way of handling a possible future scenario. Prevent an arms race, but if we don't need reasons other than "we would go out of business," can we at least flesh that out? 23:20:51 Chapell has joined #DNT 23:21:09 Peter: needs to be proportionate and legit even given risks, is that right? 23:21:15 action: weaver to look into data around the impact of audience measurement / changes to census calibration 23:21:15 Created ACTION-397 - Look into data around the impact of audience measurement / changes to census calibration [on Richard Weaver - due 2013-05-13]. 23:21:25 Aleecia has lodged some concerns about this definition, but by and large it reflects our understanding from Cambridge. 23:21:28 Rob: yes. But if just aggregated, can do processing under statistical exception. 23:21:35 action: weaver to work with ESOMAR folks on clarifying "otherwise support" in audience measurement proposed text 23:21:35 Created ACTION-398 - Work with ESOMAR folks on clarifying "otherwise support" in audience measurement proposed text [on Richard Weaver - due 2013-05-13]. 23:21:47 ... might set up a good case for statistical exception, OR the legit interest, but which is it? 23:21:48 +q 23:21:52 Susan: US don't have that 23:22:01 Rob: could be non-normative text to explain that. 23:22:12 ... may be a US-centric problem, but then I would like to know what it is 23:22:13 ack rvaneijk 23:22:13 susanisrael, rvanejyk's issue is closely linked to my question --- how mission critical is the DNT:1 data for calibration of opt-in panels? 23:22:39 s/rvanejyk/rvaneijk 23:22:49 Susan: struggling to understand the need to know something about your audience in the aggregate, how many there are, and the demographics to sell advertising which supports content distribution services 23:22:56 ... allows a company to be in business 23:23:12 ... we're not operating under European laws. We're creating a set of rules. 23:23:20 Rigo, Jeff, then Dan. 23:23:22 WHAT I SAID. We need data about mission critical this is. 23:23:38 Rigo: transatlantic misunderstanding we can clear up. 23:24:05 ... Rob is saying you can do it anyway without text in the specification, hear back we want to be sure it's in to describe what we do 23:24:21 ... Rob says then please describe it in a way that avoids the risk of EU misunderstanding 23:24:25 q? 23:24:36 Peter: drafting to address EU and US, we'd all be in favor of magical normative text that does that. 23:24:46 Susan: very helpful, happy to work on that. 23:25:07 rigo has joined #dnt 23:25:14 Jeff: since Nielsen is here, let's have public conversation just as ComScore did 23:25:20 Peter: holding that aside for now 23:25:22 action: susan to propose text (with Rigo and Rob v.E.) on harmonizing audience measurement permitted use in EU context 23:25:22 Created ACTION-399 - Propose text (with Rigo and Rob v.E.) on harmonizing audience measurement permitted use in EU context [on Susan Israel - due 2013-05-13]. 23:25:38 Dan: echo Rigo, we don't need an exception, you can still do everything you need to do 23:25:51 Susan: if that's true, it helps to - 23:26:25 ... if we understand what is prohibited, if there's no tracking and it's permitted without an exception, then this is permitted under EU law 23:26:26 ... might just be a permitted activity that doesn't require an exception [permitted use] 23:26:36 ... do we need permitted use to ensure it can continue, and we need to clarify 23:26:37 q? 23:26:53 Peter: DAA code has market research exception. Quite broad. 23:27:11 ... if we go to something different, that's a change for a lot of companies. Not just a W3C conversation. 23:27:21 q? 23:27:28 q? 23:27:29 ... turning to part 2 from David Singer, on how users find out what DNT means 23:27:47 Chris_IAB has joined #dnt 23:27:54 dsinger: browser cos talk and realized it would help to have common terms 23:28:03 audience measurement may or may not be permitted under EU law. http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-tracking/2013May/0002.html 23:28:05 ... don't want to confuse people with needlessly different terms 23:28:08 Zakim, queue = 23:28:08 I don't understand 'queue =', npdoty 23:28:15 Zakim, queue= 23:28:15 I see no one on the speaker queue 23:28:19 ... meshes with what DAA would like to explain to users what things mean 23:28:26 q? 23:28:32 ... neutrally phrased common resource, so users don't get confused 23:28:53 rvaneijk, depends on how it is done. So a permitted use would do audience measurement as it would be allowed, thus the need for a good description to come to a common understanding 23:29:01 ... imagine a preference, let's talk about browsers for a moment. They often have a ? or something similar with a link to more information 23:29:28 ... would like to like "if you want to know more about DNT, W3C (or somewhere) explains in more detail" in neutral terms 23:29:42 ... also, if you're in Europe, here's how it meshes with EU law 23:29:45 it seems we need a break out session on audience measurement and compliance 23:30:00 .... some companies are members of DAA, to learn what they say about it, click here, 23:30:08 ... branches in several ways with links to many place. 23:30:14 ... have been chatting about this 23:30:30 Thomas_Schauf: yes, Rob says, if we are just counting, there is no issue. If we attach properties, we have trouble 23:30:31 ... would like to keep it short, comprehensible, not sure we do that in the WG :-) 23:31:00 ... needs to be carefully written. Hesitant to mention while we're doing normative work here, don't want to distract. 23:31:25 ... but want it accurate, friendly, and informed. And we'd like neutrally hosted. Don't want Apple to link to a Microsoft page... 23:31:27 q? 23:31:34 rigo: Sure, but regarding EU law and lawful processing audience measurement is only one case, a view similar might exist on national level and maybe on EU level in the near future. 23:31:38 ... not sure how to proceed, would be happy to talk with others. 23:32:07 ... Not very formal yet, but that's where we are. We've come up with the same idea as the DAA for the same reasons, don't want confusion or people to click things blindly. 23:32:30 ... no browser company has said the idea is stupid, but if it ends up a complete mess perhaps groups won't sign on. 23:32:36 q+ 23:32:38 ... can link to more for details 23:32:40 sure, but a permitted use has to work globally. So you can't run the edge here 23:32:45 q? 23:33:00 Peter: in draft framework, part 6d has brief & neutral impact of turning the setting on. 23:33:06 ... this could be a way to get comfort there. 23:33:19 ... Nick has talked about how a W3C role might happen here? 23:33:30 Nick: we do host docs like this, webplatform.org 23:33:44 ... could do it there, or a WG note, would be happy to host if it helps. 23:33:58 Peter: if there's a better way to do it, W3C wouldn't insist on hosting. 23:33:59 -bilcorry 23:34:02 ack Chapell 23:34:07 ... Alan worked on this, including a protest 23:34:31 Alan: see this as a positive step forward, but what is this specifically? 23:34:38 ... just a link or more? 23:34:49 Peter: before the jump, or after? 23:35:04 David: it's after the "tell me more" 23:35:07 jeff has joined #dnt 23:35:30 ... browser help explains what the check box does, and then link to more from W3C 23:35:32 q+ 23:35:58 Alan: see this as two stage. What's communicated pre-jump, and then what's described post-jump (e.g. the link) 23:35:58 jeffwilson has joined #dnt 23:36:05 David: browsers need to work that out 23:36:21 Alan: helpful for part II of the discussion, but still need to talk about part I 23:36:25 (what's part I or II?) 23:36:38 David: "To learn more, click here" or something short 23:36:39 part I is pre-jump, part II is post-jump 23:36:46 (thanks!) 23:36:47 q? 23:36:54 Alan: what happens before the spec? 23:36:59 q? 23:37:12 Alan: applaud the effort, want to understand Part I better 23:37:26 Chris: also applaud, Google Chrome doing this 23:37:31 David: Mozilla too 23:37:38 Chris: are Chrome folks part of this? 23:37:43 David: they chat sometimes 23:37:53 Heather: I haven't been involved but would like to be 23:38:09 David: within the limits of producing a quality result we're not fussed about who helps 23:38:39 David: more coffee soon, water too, if on the phone identify you or we drop you - get on IRC. we've had one journalist already. 23:38:48 zakim, who is on the phone? 23:38:48 On the phone I see [Apple], StuIngis, moneill2, mecallahan 23:38:49 [Apple] has like, 40, of, us 23:38:56 ... warm in here, working on that too 23:38:56 everyone on the phone right now is identified 23:39:19 Peter: part III of this session with Stu. Talk more about item 6, more technical 6c is tomorrow 23:39:37 ... Stu with support from others will now tell us about their thinking on item 6 23:39:59 ... DNT off by default is actually *unset* not off by default 23:40:05 Stu: yes 23:40:15 Stu: important that DNT is unset by default 23:40:23 I believe David was referring to Mozilla's page here: https://www.mozilla.org/en-US/dnt/ 23:40:25 ... focus for now on browsers 23:40:44 ... not to necessarily exclude other UAs, but let's start there to move forward 23:41:00 but Chris was referring to the paragraph in Chrome's chrome, the third image here: http://howto.cnet.com/8301-11310_39-57546359-285/how-to-enable-chromes-do-not-track-option/ 23:41:09 Peter: on the list of topics tomorrow, discussion of browsers v. other UAs. 23:41:23 ... for today, when you hear "browser" pretend you're hearing "UA"if you want to. 23:41:29 ... we'll discuss that more tomorrow 23:41:47 Stu: choice settings in the settings panel 23:42:03 draft framework pdf link is here: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-tracking/2013Apr/att-0298/one_pager_framework_as_distributed.pdf 23:42:06 ... concept we think we're talking about is click to setting, click to activate. Two clicks in the browser context 23:42:17 ... would like consistent or standard, not through installation 23:42:34 ... third, technical measures along with non-tech, important to limit abuse 23:42:39 q? 23:42:42 ... make sure it's the consumer making the choice and no one else. 23:42:54 ... spoken about tech measures and if they're feasible. Open question. 23:43:04 ack Chris_IAB 23:43:05 ... Some measures can help, not sure there's a solution there. 23:43:07 q- 23:43:08 q? 23:43:15 ... There are legal and policy that can help 23:43:34 ... Need to talk through specifics, and that's a critical item for DAA and companies I've been speaking with. 23:43:48 ... brief & neutral language was in DAA's announcement at the WH 23:43:56 ... very similar to what David just discussed. 23:44:35 ... 1. limits collection and use, 2. some data may still be collected and used with description, 3. if affirmatively consents won't limit collection & use from that entity -> convey to users 23:44:45 ... be clear to consumers what is, and what itsn't happening 23:45:09 ... more user friendly language, we should be able to come up with something simply and neutral, understandable to consumers 23:45:23 ... all come down to, consistency in the messaging, same place, same setting 23:45:28 ... consumers all have messaging 23:45:39 ... think that's a simple and readily available way to do it 23:46:01 q+ 23:46:01 q? 23:46:06 ... this is simple, straight-forward, easy and meaningful. Everyone should be able to coalesce around 23:46:08 q+ 23:46:32 Peter: thanks. Spoken with browser companies. Range of views, but Alex - we talked a little before. Any reaction from Mozilla? 23:46:33 q- 23:47:02 Alex: A lot of what's here is very reasonable 23:47:12 ... consistent with what we're trying to work toward 23:47:24 ... consistent about default being unset and providing information to users 23:47:41 ... have three-state settings. Comfortable not being part of first-run or install wizard 23:47:53 ... find reasonable and focused on informed choices. 23:48:11 ... concerned about technical mechanisms for extensions and add-ons that are common in FF experience, open to the discussion 23:48:30 Sid: would could discuss a little more. 23:48:49 ... concerned with items 1 -3 in a digestible way that's not a wall of text 23:48:56 ... if we can work through that, it sounds reasonable 23:49:14 Peter: before v. after the jump -- if we're making progress in other ways, can perhaps move some of that 23:49:27 Alex: we would be supportive of actual user testing 23:49:36 ... what they react well to, what they don't, what's confusing to them 23:49:45 ... want to improve the current wording on three settings 23:50:00 ... real value to putting this out and working with actual users to make sure they understand in the choices they think they're making 23:50:02 q? 23:50:19 ... if this group is willing to be iterative, we're willing to be a partner and work through it 23:50:46 dsinger: very similar to Mozilla, not sure how to work it out, but will give it a good try 23:50:58 q? 23:51:02 ... learning experience for parts 1 -3 in a fairly new field for online privacy 23:51:07 q? 23:51:14 q+ 23:51:19 Alex and Sid - would you consider changing the "Let Sites Track Me" option to "Allow sites that provide me free content to pay for their services by anonymously targeting personalized ads to me." This is a more balanced approach to providing fair information in the "step 1" before the "learn more" step 2. 23:51:20 ... puzzled by tech and non tech measures, not sure how to do that 23:51:29 ... fine place to move ahead 23:52:00 Adrian: consent experience disucssion, agree we need to see how people respond to this 23:52:15 ... don't want to describe something that constrains future innovation 23:52:25 ... not sure we'll complete all the work needed while writing the specs 23:52:38 ... don't want to close off avenues to continue to innovate. 23:52:57 Wileys, what about the use cases of "tracking" that aren't related to ads? 23:52:57 ... agree we don't want huge terms & conditions with 20 multiple choice questions before you're allowed to use the setting. 23:52:59 BerinSzoka has joined #DNT 23:53:08 ... need easy to understand with a link for more info, in favor of that 23:53:18 ack jmayer 23:53:32 jmayer: focused on substance, how about the process? 23:53:33 dan_auerbach has joined #dnt 23:53:40 q? 23:53:50 +1 to Shane. I don't see how "Tell sites that I want to be tracked" can possibly be a fair way to present that choice. 23:53:50 Opera has similar views/concerns as listed by the other browser vendors 23:53:51 ... suppose a browser UI is seen as not acceptable, who decides and what remedies? 23:53:54 Sid, how many of those are there? Could those be explained in the "Learn More" - it appears the chief use case is the advertising one. 23:54:05 ... websites with self-help, or external? 23:54:11 ... or you always have to honor? 23:54:18 q? 23:54:29 Brooks has joined #dnt 23:54:40 Peter: one point, Adrian's point is a good reason to have functional criteria rather than 2013 technology. Write to be more tech neutral, will talk more later. 23:54:44 Sid, as much as my proposed language doesn't FULLY cover all the details, it appears to be far more balanced to the "Tell Websites I don't want to be tracked" language. 23:54:53 .... Second, what would the process be. 23:55:07 ... If tomorrow a browser did something outside what the standard said, it could do it. 23:55:22 ... but then folks who obligated themselves to agree to DNT:1 wouldn't need to be under that. 23:55:33 jmayer: websites invididually? 23:55:54 pswire: DAA, BBB could relieve a site of the obligation under their codes 23:56:10 Shane, do expect that cookies would be described in the same way ? 23:56:14 jmayer: hypotethically microsoft 23:56:33 Stu: would integrate into DAA, enforceable by BBB and in many cases the FTC. 23:56:40 Fwager, look at UA preference choices for Cookies and you'll see even less description. 23:56:42 q? 23:56:48 dwainberg has joined #dnt 23:56:56 ... BBB viewed favorably and been around for many years. DMA more about companies into compliance 23:57:07 strider has joined #dnt 23:57:12 "Tell sites I want to limit third-party [collection|tracking] of my browsing" 23:57:13 .... BBB more as a public deterrent 23:57:19 q? 23:57:21 ... 19 cases, companies changing business practices 23:57:30 (Stu, please correct if I missed things there) 23:57:52 q? 23:57:58 q+ 23:58:08 So Microsoft is OK with websites ignoring DNT: 1 from IE 10+? 23:58:11 Nick, more directly "Tell parties that support the websites I visit that I don't want to be tracked across websites." 23:58:17 npdoty: In audience measurement, have own opt-outs with neutral language. Is this an opportunity? 23:58:23 q? 23:58:33 ... would market research honor DNT:1 if they find the language neutral enough? 23:58:58 ... during market research we heard neutral language is important, would this help? 23:59:00 ack npdoty 23:59:13 I can't imagine that's right, especially given the recent round of advertising that "Your Privacy is Our Priority" in Internet Explorer. 23:59:14 Peter: think this is separate. Is about the sending of the signal. 23:59:25 ... Not sure how it fits together. 23:59:37 Lmastria_DAA has joined #dnt 23:59:41 Nick: thought Richard said the key thing for the opt out was describing how things work 23:59:41 Q? 23:59:51 jmayer, MSFT will receive feedback from the sites that reject their signals. I'm not sure they have made a statement about how they will treat those third parties. 23:59:52 Susan: I don't own the issue, but I understand Nick's question 23:59:59 thanks susan, for proving that I'm not crazy 00:00:05 ... offer to make the same neutral language 00:00:20 Peter: additional opt out to audience measurement? 00:00:25 q? 00:00:30 rigo has joined #dnt 00:00:39 ?: but we'd have audience measurement as a permitted use, this is moot. No opt out. 00:00:48 s/?:/RichardW:/ 00:01:17 John: appreciate what David described as a neutral place, but very concerned about prescriptive attempt to dictate exact language in the UI 00:01:20 +Q 00:01:23 Justin, does the framework allow browsers to turn to countermeasures if their DNT: 1 is ignored? 00:01:28 ack johnsimpson 00:01:32 q+ 00:01:33 ... troubling from competitive point of view, potential anti-trust issues 00:01:42 ... if DAA says you all must do this, that's troubling 00:02:00 Stu: should be clear, DAA isn't dictating what standard browsers follow. Just what the DAA would enforce against. 00:02:06 jmayer, I don't believe the framework addresses that either way. 00:02:07 ... browsers can determine what they do 00:02:08 q+ 00:02:34 ... hope it would be consistent. Competitive concerns in many areas, not just here. 00:02:47 peterswire: I teach anti-trust. 00:03:40 ... My own view is with history of standards and anti-trust, and more generally, felt satisfied we were in a comfortable place 00:04:13 ... overall increase in user choice and higher equilibrium overall, this may be the highest and best answer for consumers 00:04:34 ... complexity there, but have spent a little time on this, personal view without research 00:04:38 q? 00:04:39 q? 00:04:50 dsinger: guidelines about capability rather than design 00:05:18 ... capable of informing the user. Don't get into check mark or being prescriptive. Leave room for innovation here and compete 00:05:29 maybe there's agreement on this separation: the standard would define what it means to comply with an expressed signal; sites can choose when to comply with a signal or when to disregard; DAA's self-regulatory program would bring enforcement on complying with signals at least under these set of conditions 00:05:36 ... Not too worried from document from the DAA 00:05:42 John: document sounds fine 00:05:54 ack BerinSzoka 00:05:58 dsinger: every browser will get prickly if you start telling us how to design our products 00:05:58 rvaneijk has joined #dnt 00:06:13 Berin: Peter's ship and dock analogy. 00:06:35 ... dock owners saying "hold on, you can't tell us we need security" but of course you can. 00:06:46 q- 00:06:47 q? 00:06:55 ... the ship owners can say to the dock owners "you need a gate" so people don't free ride with a ship full of free goods 00:07:16 ... this happens all the time in standards. Not unreasonable or anti-trust, saying otherwise is a distraction. 00:07:22 ... we're here to cut a deal. 00:07:27 removed myself from que -- as it seems like both Berin and DavidSinger are in favor of guidelines 00:07:29 ... there won't be a deal without this language. 00:07:44 ... this should not be about free riding, needs to work for both parties. 00:07:59 ... John or browsers, if you think otherwise, I'd like to here it _now_ 00:08:13 s/here it/hear it/ 00:08:31 Peter: there would need to be discussion around details 00:08:37 (yeesh, thank you thomas) 00:08:43 q? 00:08:47 We've already agreed that we're not going to put rules on the ships' user interface . . . 00:08:54 q? 00:08:59 ack afowler 00:09:04 q+ 00:09:30 Alex: more color about why browsers started talking a few months ago. Not a good situation if every browser tells a different story. Many users have multiple browsers, IE and work and another at home 00:09:36 q+ 00:09:57 maybe like using a common RSS icon for discovery of RSS feeds 00:10:06 q+ 00:10:08 ... from UX perspective, need some consistency. We could do something constructive by providing commonality, where it's located in the browser, very practical reasons to make this neutral 00:10:12 ... we're already there 00:10:32 q+ 00:10:33 ... believe this is the right direction to go. We could go into crazy by being too prescriptive, but don't think that's where we're headed 00:10:36 ack rigo 00:10:57 Rigo: same lines, standard setting has remedies to many problems in horizontal agreements 00:11:18 ... be careful not to be prescriptive, mobile, internet of things, require innovative UIs 00:11:22 q? 00:11:44 ... but in P3P 1.1, as we learn how to use it, we expect a certain reaction from software, get into a loop and that's a good thing (iterative and learning?) 00:12:02 ... don't want to get into do you want DNT? yes, are you sure, yes, are you really really sure, yes - not what we want 00:12:07 ack Thomas_Schauf 00:12:40 thomas?: if browser settings only deal with outset, don't need to be detailed 00:12:53 ... DNT at onset, then how to react to DNT unset is given 00:13:01 s/thomas?/thomasSchauf/ 00:13:06 ... have permitted use, non-permitted use, or legal requirements 00:13:15 s/outset/unset/ 00:13:21 s/onset/unset/ 00:13:27 ... in the details, how to move on if we have DNT unset 00:13:34 I'm confused, I thought our specs didn't speak to how recipients to handle DNT unset 00:13:48 ... if users take the choice can say yes or no, can deal with audience data 00:13:55 can someone else help here? 00:13:57 ... though maybe a global considerations document could help you understand your different legal requirements 00:14:08 thank you - 00:14:09 q? 00:14:09 npdoty, i am confused too 00:14:18 adrian: echo Alex, 00:14:20 aleecia, I will scribe if you need to be spelled 00:14:34 ... consistency is good, problematic where too prescriptive 00:14:35 Thomas_Schauf, can you clarify here in IRC? susanisrael and I are a little confused about DNT unset -- don't we not have requirements in that case? 00:14:43 ack adrianba 00:14:48 ... if exactly what the words must be is too much 00:14:57 ... crosses the line 00:15:03 q+ hober 00:15:07 aleecia, was that what you were asking? for new scribe? 00:15:10 Sounds like we're all in agreement - next issue? 00:15:13 Stu: maybe just have these three concepts 00:15:21 susan, i'm ok, just wasn't getting Thomas well 00:15:22 q? 00:15:24 thanks though 00:15:42 +1, sounds like we have agreement, action item for normative text? 00:15:43 sorry for typos 00:16:04 Firstly, DNT=unset is the default. So also browser manufactures should respect this default. So we need a clear language on the question: What happens if DNT signal is unset 00:16:08 Alan: sounds like agreement we need some baseline standards around disclosures, without too prescriptive including exact language 00:16:15 aleecia, good, ok. Let me know if you need help 00:16:30 ... clarification: will group as whole take this up, or browser discussion? 00:16:44 (Thomas Schauf, we have clear answers there, happy to talk at break) 00:16:53 q? 00:16:59 close q 00:17:05 zakim, close queue 00:17:05 ok, wseltzer, the speaker queue is closed 00:17:08 David: no need for it to be exclusive, but let's not have a written-by-committee disaster at the end, and not take time away from main DNT work 00:17:09 Remember the old joke: a camel is a horse designed by committee 00:17:11 q? 00:17:11 ack Chapell 00:17:14 Maybe browsers can offer something, and others can then offer comments 00:17:16 ... would be happy for additional help 00:17:21 Alan: would love to be part 00:17:27 dsinger: nodes 00:17:28 BerinSzoka, one of my favorite 00:17:30 ack hober 00:17:46 aleecia: sure, but not covered seems the legal questions (EU/US) 00:18:09 Increasing consistency is what we want to do. All browsers have a place we type things in, URL and sometimes search as well. 00:18:24 ... Mozilla is called awesome bar. Ours is unified search field or something. 00:18:33 Everyone knows what it is, you type things in and something happens. 00:18:52 Again - we're all in agreement on this topic - next??? 00:19:01 Helps if browsers explain this in a consistent way. But it's ok Mozilla calls it the awesome bar, you can switch browsers and figure it out. 00:19:11 Or is everyone drawing this out to get to dinner without going to another topic? :-) 00:19:14 Thomas-can't scribe & chat, but we have this covered 00:19:24 kulick has joined #dnt 00:19:34 Peter: agenda for tomorrow, summary today, where to go for beer 00:19:51 ... tomorrow, Matthias & dsinger chair, technical measures in part 6 with TPE 00:19:53 we have issue-172 on this topic (explanatory text requirements for UAs), and already have a few proposed pieces of text on this from Shane and Jonathan 00:19:56 rigo has joined #dnt 00:20:03 ... after lunch, John Calous (sp?) at 2 pacific 00:20:10 s/Calous/Callas/ 00:20:43 ... well known security person, did a call with us. Follow up discussions with specific security issues in DNT realm. Update there with Q&A 00:20:52 (thanks wendy!) 00:21:06 Peter: will talk about unique ids and security 00:21:07 http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-tracking/2013Feb/0123.html 00:21:26 ... may well have follow up on financial auditing, subgroup working on that. 00:21:40 ... afternoon, browser v. user agent and how we talk about it 00:21:57 ... that's tomorrow. wednesday is whatever else we've parked and where are we now. 00:22:03 rigo has joined #dnt 00:22:13 ... today, talked about audience measurement. 00:22:34 ... if audience measurement gets built in, at least compared to DAA code it's a limitation on collection 00:23:08 ... prior critique is hard to see limitations, overall if we have do not collect as well as do not target, that addresses concerns from FTC 00:23:20 ... could be an important step toward do not collect on something important 00:23:33 ... second, dsinger agreement on common resource with browsers open to others 00:23:53 ... third, Stu introduced points on the phone and we heard from browsers we are converging on item 6 00:24:21 ... for Monday, if we're making progress on do not collect and progress on item 6, glimmers of good things here. Tomorrow, unique IDs and framework for addressing that over time. 00:24:30 BillScannell has joined #dnt 00:24:37 ... link in agenda to Dinner on your own, but meet for drinks at Firehouse Brewery, 111 South Murphy. 00:24:43 http://www.w3.org/2011/tracking-protection/sunnyvale/agenda.html 00:24:49 ... quick walk 00:24:57 http://goo.gl/maps/8AbZ3 00:25:09 johnsimpson has left #dnt 00:25:24 adjourned. 00:25:25 -mecallahan 00:25:26 -StuIngis 00:25:29 -moneill2 00:25:29 Zakim, list attendees 00:25:30 As of this point the attendees have been like, 40, of, us, +1.781.479.aaaa, bilcorry, Gregg_Vanderheiden, schunter, moneill2, +1.647.274.aabb, +1.215.898.aacc, Turow?, 00:25:30 ... +1.647.274.aadd, +1.202.257.aaee, +1.215.898.aaff, +1.408.223.aagg, +1.202.344.aahh, +1.202.257.aaii, mecallahan, StuIngis 00:25:40 rrsagent, please draft the minutes 00:25:40 I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2013/05/07-dnt-minutes.html npdoty 00:25:52 rrsagent, make logs public 00:26:17 chair: Peter_Swire 00:27:02 Meeting: Tracking Protection Working Group 00:27:10 rrsagent, make minutes 00:27:10 I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2013/05/07-dnt-minutes.html wseltzer 00:29:11 -[Apple] 00:29:12 Team_(dnt)18:00Z has ended 00:29:12 Attendees were like, 40, of, us, +1.781.479.aaaa, bilcorry, Gregg_Vanderheiden, schunter, moneill2, +1.647.274.aabb, +1.215.898.aacc, Turow?, +1.647.274.aadd, +1.202.257.aaee, 00:29:12 ... +1.215.898.aaff, +1.408.223.aagg, +1.202.344.aahh, +1.202.257.aaii, mecallahan, StuIngis 00:33:25 robsherman has joined #dnt 00:42:49 fwagner has joined #dnt 01:24:03 jeff has joined #dnt 03:37:15 dsinger has joined #dnt 03:49:28 adrianba has joined #dnt 04:09:15 afowler has joined #dnt 04:45:46 afowler has left #dnt 04:58:41 kulick has joined #dnt 05:03:12 kulick has left #dnt 05:42:57 strider has joined #dnt 05:51:37 npdoty has joined #dnt 06:20:50 rrsagent, pointer? 06:20:50 See http://www.w3.org/2013/05/07-dnt-irc#T06-20-50