IRC log of dnt on 2013-05-01

Timestamps are in UTC.

15:49:59 [RRSAgent]
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15:49:59 [RRSAgent]
logging to
15:50:01 [trackbot]
RRSAgent, make logs world
15:50:03 [trackbot]
Zakim, this will be
15:50:04 [Zakim]
I don't understand 'this will be', trackbot
15:50:04 [trackbot]
Meeting: Tracking Protection Working Group Teleconference
15:50:05 [trackbot]
Date: 01 May 2013
15:50:27 [tlr]
zakim, this will be track
15:50:27 [Zakim]
ok, tlr; I see T&S_Track(dnt)12:00PM scheduled to start in 10 minutes
15:50:44 [Zakim]
T&S_Track(dnt)12:00PM has now started
15:50:51 [Zakim]
15:50:59 [tlr]
zakim, ericM is temporarily thomas
15:50:59 [Zakim]
+thomas; got it
15:51:02 [tlr]
zakim, I am thomas
15:51:02 [Zakim]
ok, tlr, I now associate you with thomas
15:51:47 [adrianba]
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15:56:08 [Zakim]
+ +1.202.973.aaaa
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15:57:23 [npdoty]
Zakim, aaaa is PaulGlist
15:57:23 [Zakim]
+PaulGlist; got it
15:57:44 [Zakim]
15:57:53 [Zakim]
+ +1.202.331.aabb
15:57:56 [Zakim]
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+ +1.202.478.aacc
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prestia has joined #dnt
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+ +1.215.286.aadd
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15:59:40 [Zakim]
+ +1.609.258.aaee - is perhaps efelten
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15:59:51 [efelten]
Zakim, efelten? is really efelten
15:59:51 [Zakim]
sorry, efelten, I do not recognize a party named 'efelten?'
15:59:52 [prestia]
prestia has joined #dnt
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+ +1.212.768.aaff
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16:00:24 [Zakim]
+ +1.619.846.aagg
16:00:25 [Zakim]
+ +1.202.257.aahh
16:00:28 [hober]
Zakim, aagg is me
16:00:28 [Zakim]
+hober; got it
16:00:29 [Bin_Hu]
Bin_Hu has joined #dnt
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16:00:38 [jchester2]
zakim, mute me
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mecallahan has joined #dnt
16:00:40 [Zakim]
jchester2 should now be muted
16:00:48 [hober]
Zakim, mute me
16:00:48 [Zakim]
16:00:48 [Zakim]
hober should now be muted
16:00:54 [npdoty]
Zakim, aahh may be robsherman
16:00:54 [Yianni]
Zakim, mute me
16:00:54 [Zakim]
+robsherman?; got it
16:00:54 [Zakim]
Yianni should now be muted
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kj has joined #dnt
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hwest has joined #dnt
16:00:59 [Zakim]
16:01:03 [npdoty]
Zakim, who is on the phone?
16:01:03 [Zakim]
On the phone I see thomas, PaulGlist, npdoty, rvaneijk, +1.202.331.aabb, prestia, Peder_Magee, +1.202.478.aacc, BerinSzoka, +1.215.286.aadd, efelten, +1.212.768.aaff, Amy_Colando,
16:01:07 [Zakim]
... hober (muted), robsherman?, jchester2 (muted), johnsimpson, Yianni (muted), eberkower, [Microsoft]
16:01:12 [Zakim]
+ +1.202.344.aaii
16:01:18 [Chapell]
Chapell has joined #DNT
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16:01:25 [Zakim]
+ +1.404.385.aajj - is perhaps peterswire?
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16:01:28 [Lmastria_DAA]
212 778 aaff is me
16:01:35 [Zakim]
16:01:40 [Zakim]
16:01:42 [npdoty]
Zakim, aaff is Lmastria_DAA
16:01:42 [Zakim]
+Lmastria_DAA; got it
16:01:46 [Zakim]
16:01:50 [fielding]
fielding has joined #dnt
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16:01:53 [Zakim]
+ +1.917.934.aakk
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dan_auerbach has joined #dnt
16:02:04 [Zakim]
16:02:06 [npdoty]
Zakim, drop aabb
16:02:07 [Zakim]
+1.202.331.aabb is being disconnected
16:02:08 [Zakim]
- +1.202.331.aabb
16:02:11 [npdoty]
Zakim, drop aacc
16:02:13 [Zakim]
+1.202.478.aacc is being disconnected
16:02:13 [Zakim]
- +1.202.478.aacc
16:02:14 [justin]
justin has joined #dnt
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16:02:16 [Zakim]
16:02:17 [Zakim]
+ +1.650.241.aall
16:02:22 [Chris_IAB]
joining today from 661-100-xxxx
16:02:24 [Zakim]
16:02:30 [npdoty]
Zakim, aadd is susanisrael
16:02:30 [Zakim]
+susanisrael; got it
16:02:33 [Zakim]
16:02:35 [Zakim]
+ +1.650.283.aamm
16:02:39 [Zakim]
16:02:40 [ChrisPedigoOPA]
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16:02:44 [npdoty]
scribenick: susanisrael
16:02:46 [Zakim]
16:02:53 [adrianba]
zakim, [Microsoft.a] is me
16:02:53 [Zakim]
+adrianba; got it
16:02:55 [tlr]
zakim, who is making noise?
16:03:00 [Zakim]
16:03:01 [Zakim]
16:03:04 [Zakim]
16:03:06 [cOlsen]
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16:03:06 [Zakim]
tlr, listening for 10 seconds I heard sound from the following: ??P0 (2%), PaulGlist (16%), Chapell (26%), hwest (9%), peterswire? (46%), +1.917.934.aakk (5%), Lmastria_DAA (16%),
16:03:09 [Zakim]
... +1.650.241.aall (12%)
16:03:09 [Zakim]
+ +1.202.478.aann
16:03:10 [Mike_Zaneis]
(202) 344-4259 is Mike Zaneis
16:03:11 [phildpearce]
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tara has joined #dnt
16:03:21 [Zakim]
16:03:21 [adrianba]
zakim, mute me
16:03:22 [Zakim]
adrianba should now be muted
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16:03:43 [susanisrael]
peterswire: i am not going to be circulating slides but will talk off my preparation to give you my own perspective, explain some about where it came from....
16:03:47 [Zakim]
16:03:50 [Zakim]
16:03:54 [npdoty]
Zakim, who is on the phone?
16:03:54 [Zakim]
On the phone I see thomas, PaulGlist, npdoty, rvaneijk, prestia, Peder_Magee, BerinSzoka, susanisrael, efelten, Lmastria_DAA, Amy_Colando, hober (muted), robsherman?, jchester2
16:03:57 [Zakim]
... (muted), johnsimpson, Yianni (muted), eberkower, [Microsoft], +1.202.344.aaii, ??P0, peterswire?, hwest, Bin_Hu, Brooks, Keith_Scarborough, +1.917.934.aakk, Chris_Pedigo,
16:03:57 [Zakim]
... [GVoice], +1.650.241.aall, Fielding, +1.650.283.aamm, Chapell, Aleecia, adrianba (muted), [CDT], phildpearce, Dan_Auerbach, +1.202.478.aann, WileyS, [FTC], Jonathan_Mayer
16:04:02 [tara]
Hi. This is Tara Whalen at Apple; I'm sitting in today for David Singer.
16:04:04 [npdoty]
Zakim, aaii is Mike_Zaneis
16:04:04 [Zakim]
+Mike_Zaneis; got it
16:04:16 [rachel_n_thomas]
Zakim, aann is rachel_n_thomas
16:04:16 [Zakim]
+rachel_n_thomas; got it
16:04:20 [npdoty]
Zakim, aamm may be tara
16:04:20 [Zakim]
+tara?; got it
16:04:23 [susanisrael]
....greeting, talking as chair for compliance will try to provide context and transparency about this document. there has been a lot of good public and private conversations.....hard work and good faith
16:04:32 [tara]
Zakim, Adam is me.
16:04:32 [Zakim]
sorry, tara, I do not recognize a party named 'Adam'
16:04:36 [David_MacMillan]
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16:04:42 [Zakim]
+ +1.202.331.aaoo
16:04:43 [Zakim]
+ +1.202.370.aapp
16:04:50 [Zakim]
16:04:51 [susanisrael]
....people can be very aware of disagreements and problems, but i would like to emphasize all the good hard work...
16:04:53 [Zakim]
+ +1.650.787.aaqq - is perhaps billscan?
16:04:55 [tara]
Yes, that is right. Thanks!
16:05:15 [tara]
Zakim, aamm is me.
16:05:15 [Zakim]
sorry, tara, I do not recognize a party named 'aamm'
16:05:25 [Suzanne]
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16:05:28 [susanisrael]
will overview work since i came on, arms race, why i think something like this makes sense, and will address some criticisms of me and chair...
16:05:49 [Richard_comScore]
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16:05:53 [susanisrael]
...have tried to work off of facts, get good tine, have had outside experts, converging on reality...
16:06:18 [susanisrael]
...have polished compliance spec, though i have heard doubts about what adoption we would get of current draft spec
16:06:40 [susanisrael] thing you could do is make incremental edits but it wasn't clear to me that would change the sense of consensus...
16:06:49 [npdoty]
Zakim, aapp may be [Facebook]
16:06:49 [Zakim]
+[Facebook]?; got it
16:07:08 [susanisrael]
from that and talking to lots of sources that this draft framework has been pulled together......for last f2f before last call
16:07:08 [Mike_Zaneis_]
Mike_Zaneis_ has joined #dnt
16:07:17 [susanisrael]
want consensus that is workable...
16:07:43 [susanisrael]
one baseline is a lot of things that were in WH agreement of 2012, though there are clear departures, informed by work since then....
16:08:01 [susanisrael]
similar to work people spoke about in feb, which is a clue as to what may work for key stakeholders
16:08:23 [susanisrael]
....draft framework is a DRAFT and a FRAMEWORK....not a secret deal, but helps with agenda for meeting....
16:08:38 [susanisrael]
these are topics that i think would be productive for group to talk about...
16:08:49 [susanisrael]
if pieces work might work...
16:09:09 [johnsimpson]
16:09:12 [susanisrael]
topics for discussion not normative text....framework creates outside frame, not detailed word by word somethign...
16:09:47 [susanisrael]
where did draft framework come from? from you. Might sound silly but much of material came after discussions between folks, including browsers and advertisers.....
16:10:01 [susanisrael]
there have been discussions between browsers and consumer groups.....
16:10:24 [susanisrael]
there have been blogs, discussions, lots of discusisons i have not been in room for including between advertisers and consumer groups.....
16:11:00 [susanisrael]
most of words in framework not from me, and i was not even in room....represent different stakeholders and regulators have weighed in....lots of people talking to each other...
16:11:25 [sidstamm]
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16:11:28 [susanisrael]
these are issues we have seen in public discussions of wg, then qu is whether you can put it in organized fashion....
16:11:56 [susanisrael]
for us qu is what does this look like, should we like it? "this is a baby sitting here, should we like it?"
16:12:23 [Zakim]
16:12:28 [susanisrael]
arms race: you may have read my op is my frank view of advantanges and disadvantages to diff parties...
16:12:30 [sidstamm]
Zakim, Mozilla has sidstamm
16:12:30 [Zakim]
+sidstamm; got it
16:12:50 [Zakim]
16:12:54 [JHobaugh]
JHobaugh has joined #dnt
16:12:54 [Zakim]
+ +1.415.999.aarr
16:12:56 [susanisrael]
browsers can write a few lines of code asnd change everythign....creates reason for advertisers to come to table and talk....
16:13:34 [susanisrael]
advertisers have important advantage too....big industry, tens of millions of dollars, and have resources to take technical action...could wear down browser tech....
16:13:53 [hefferjr]
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16:14:06 [susanisrael]
reason to create leverage for deal for both parties, both could get beat up in arms race, then both sides would lose if lots of retooling and less transparency and user choice....
16:14:13 [susanisrael]
now there is money to be gained....
16:14:26 [Zakim]
16:14:52 [bryan]
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16:14:52 [susanisrael]
re: consumer privacy : i have heard 2 biggest themes re: what's important: (1) dn collect, not just target, 2) unique ids
16:15:16 [susanisrael]
my thesis re: draft framework ("DF") : does a lot re: do not collect
16:15:45 [efelten]
Can a DAA representative confirm that the current DAA framework limits collection?
16:15:55 [susanisrael]
daa code already has do not collect, but with 2 exceptions with no real limits, market research and product improvement....
16:16:01 [Zakim]
16:16:13 [susanisrael]
if we get improvement on these exceptions, could eliminate much tracking for dnt: 1 user....
16:16:32 [susanisrael]
other exceptions to collection limits are similar to ones in our compliance spec.
16:16:57 [tara]
tara has joined #dnt
16:16:58 [susanisrael]
mon afternoon there will be esomar expert re: market research reason to think we can make progress
16:17:12 [Mike_Zaneis_]
Ed, we have told you this on several occasions that, yes, the Multisite Principles cover collection, unless there is a an exception involved.
16:17:16 [susanisrael]
re: unique IDS--this is single biggest remaining issue
16:17:35 [susanisrael]
have been discussions in WG and privately, here we have industry discussions offline reflected....
16:17:56 [susanisrael]
unique ids not included for dnt 1, limited for permitted uses, so this is progres....
16:18:21 [susanisrael]
if you, industry, can be creative re what can be done here, it is my view we really could have an overall package that works....
16:18:23 [Zakim]
16:18:54 [susanisrael]
not 7 issues, ONE issue....could be factfinding, but if people from industry can come forward and show path to answer, this is CENTER of universe for us.....
16:19:03 [Zakim]
16:19:34 [susanisrael]
DF has one idea i am optimistic about: follow up study...but some skepticism from some people about th is....but i am issuing plea for creativity on this too.....
16:19:52 [susanisrael]
if we get agreement on this what does it look like?
16:19:57 [susanisrael]
16:20:15 [efelten]
So the "consumer control" described in the DAA Multisite Principles refers to an ability to stop collection (except for exceptions)?
16:20:38 [susanisrael]
if privacy groups walk away there will be pressure for legislative and regulatory action....not sure what consumer group next step would be...but compare legis/reg action and arms race to a possible deal.....
16:20:55 [susanisrael]
there would have to be thorough vetting of things like DAA framework......
16:21:18 [susanisrael]
let me talk about browser or ua perspective.....fulfills promise to wh to limit tracking....
16:21:33 [susanisrael]
browsers would like to limit poss competitiion on browser features.....
16:21:50 [Mike_Zaneis_]
Ed, yes, I believe you studied the effectiveness of this mechanism while at the FTC.
16:21:59 [susanisrael]
have spoken personally before monday....was in redmond have also spoken to mozilla, google, apple.,....won't say what they said....
16:22:16 [susanisrael]
but this is similar to WH proposal so i'm hopeful....
16:22:37 [susanisrael]
alll browsers have also consider cookie blocking except if DNT compliance....
16:22:50 [susanisrael]
another issue has been raised by ed and others....
16:22:58 [johnsimpson]
16:23:21 [susanisrael]
i am happy to bring as much into this round as possible, but often in w3c if you don't get more than 90% in a round, you have another round....
16:23:37 [npdoty]
Zakim, who is making noise?
16:23:46 [robsherman]
robsherman has joined #dnt
16:23:47 [Zakim]
npdoty, listening for 10 seconds I heard sound from the following: PaulGlist (25%)
16:23:54 [Zakim]
+ +1.650.391.aass
16:24:03 [susanisrael]
what is BATNA for browsers ...cld build dnt signal but if no compliance won't work.....and would face ongoing arms race and related uncertainty....
16:24:10 [robsherman]
zakim, aass is robsherman
16:24:10 [Zakim]
+robsherman; got it
16:24:15 [susanisrael]
if agmt, certainty, if not, none...
16:24:39 [susanisrael]
advertiser perspective: advertisers made promise and they want to keep it....and meet business goals.....
16:24:52 [fielding]
q+ to ask if we are going to limit the effect of DNT:1 to advertising
16:25:02 [susanisrael]
what about advertisers and draft framework.....DF addresses the "Default issue".....
16:25:19 [susanisrael]
there ahve been discussions re: what neutral setting look like.....
16:25:46 [susanisrael]
for advertisers, compliance would be required for DAA members, enforced by BBB....with permitted users where needed....
16:26:05 [susanisrael]
would build on existing promises and improve market research etc:
16:26:45 [susanisrael]
BATNA for them: take heat for breaking promise, might have to explore alternatives, and this remains a strategic risk for industry, as well as cost of tech arms race, digital fingerprinting, etc.....
16:27:02 [susanisrael]
so agmt here might be better than not coming to something here.
16:27:22 [Mike_Zaneis_]
Roy, can't speak for the W3C, but the DAA Multisite Principles are not limited to advertising today.
16:27:40 [susanisrael]
regulator perspective: in the US, subject to details, this would introduce Do Not collect....consistent with WH discusison 2012 and important consumer upgrades introduced....
16:27:56 [susanisrael]
for EU there are legal protections, and nothing can lower those
16:28:04 [johnsimpson]
Mike and Ed: Looks to me lie according to IIIA of DAA principles that "Collection and use" is covered; not simply "collection."
16:28:24 [npdoty]
Zakim, who is on the phone?
16:28:24 [Zakim]
On the phone I see thomas, PaulGlist, npdoty, rvaneijk, prestia, Peder_Magee, BerinSzoka, susanisrael, efelten, Lmastria_DAA, Amy_Colando, hober (muted), robsherman?, jchester2
16:28:24 [susanisrael]
everyone knew that it would be hard to bring non-EU participants into EU framework, but this is an option....
16:28:27 [Zakim]
... (muted), johnsimpson, Yianni (muted), eberkower, [Microsoft], Mike_Zaneis, ??P0, peterswire?, hwest, Bin_Hu (muted), Brooks, Keith_Scarborough, +1.917.934.aakk, Chris_Pedigo,
16:28:27 [Zakim]
... +1.650.241.aall, Fielding, tara?, Chapell, Aleecia, adrianba (muted), [CDT], phildpearce, Dan_Auerbach, rachel_n_thomas, WileyS, [FTC], Jonathan_Mayer, +1.202.331.aaoo,
16:28:27 [Zakim]
... David_MacMillan, billscan?, [Mozilla], RichardWeaver, +1.415.999.aarr, hefferjr, bryan, robsherman
16:28:32 [Zakim]
[Mozilla] has sidstamm
16:28:55 [susanisrael]
this DF meets key goals for all stakeholders, better than no agreement for all of them, and for alternative options that I have been able to find....
16:29:25 [sidstamm]
Mike_Zaneis_: neat. have you seen examples of non-advertising-industry-affiliated entities subject to or sign-on for the DAA principles?
16:29:26 [susanisrael]
many pieces to work out...needs details, creativity, future work, critiques of problems not found, but good basis fof f2f....
16:29:37 [susanisrael]
i will address 2 criticisms of chair.......
16:30:23 [susanisrael]
1. Is peter swire desperate to make a deal? If it doesn't work out i will have a life. I have been hired to try to get a deal but if it does not work it doesn't work....
16:31:08 [susanisrael]
2) am i getting paid? yes, as for other working groups i am paid for travel, as if for an NSF grant, and for part time prof svcs .......
16:31:33 [susanisrael]
fundraising letter has gone to all w3c members.....opportunity open to all.....
16:31:47 [jchester2]
Can you name the 8 companies please and the total amount spent on your salary?
16:31:58 [susanisrael]
also about half of diverse largest members of working group have agreed to fund on a fair share basis
16:32:29 [susanisrael]
this is a framework, not being imposed on you....if we work on it together at f2f we have a chance to get something good done......
16:32:32 [Mike_Zaneis]
Mike_Zaneis has joined #dnt
16:32:32 [npdoty]
If you're calling from +1.650.241.aall, +1.917.934.aakk, +1.202.331.aaoo, +1.415.999.aarr -- we need to identify your numbers, or drop you from the call.
16:32:34 [npdoty]
16:32:34 [peterswire]
16:32:39 [npdoty]
ack fielding
16:32:39 [Zakim]
fielding, you wanted to ask if we are going to limit the effect of DNT:1 to advertising
16:32:39 [susanisrael]
we start at noon in sunnyvale ..
16:33:07 [tara]
tara has joined #dnt
16:33:21 [susanisrael]
royfielding: i understand effort to make progress in broad framework, but we are 3 months after starting and we don't have camera ready text to go into doc.....i am frustrated....
16:33:41 [justin]
16:33:48 [susanisrael]
i have spent time on text and compliance going in circles.....i am also frustrated with focus on ad industry....
16:34:32 [susanisrael]
i don't care aside from employer interest.... i am interested in not breaking http with useless packets, fraud, zombie machines continuing and i don't see how agmt with daa will help....
16:34:33 [jmayer]
16:35:24 [susanisrael]
concerns i always have are fine details: how define data collection? why do we think dnt affects targeting vs all data collection [? ] ....meaning of do not collect.....
16:35:30 [Mike_Zaneis]
Sid, sorry fell off irc. What types of companies are you thinking of? We've had companies like credit bureaus sign up. Most everyone is either a marketer, publisher, data provider, or network/platform that is part of the ad industry.
16:35:57 [susanisrael]
peterswire: DF uses term in first sentence of tracking the extent it points to DAA code there is tracking definition there, can someone supply?
16:36:16 [npdoty]
from the editors' draft: "Tracking" is understood by this standard as the collection and retention of data across multiple parties' domains or services in a form such that it can be attributed to a specific user, user agent, or device.
16:36:32 [sidstamm]
Mike_Zaneis, I was just curious who you've seen agree to the principles (since you mentioned they're not limited to just advertising industry)
16:36:34 [justin]
The DAA definition of tracking is similar to what's in the compliance standard.
16:36:37 [susanisrael]
lou: collection of data across unaffiliated sites over time, is the short version.....we already have this working across 100s or 1000s of co's....
16:36:51 [susanisrael]
peterswire: Nick has posted def into IRC....
16:37:11 [Aleecia]
Aleecia has joined #dnt
16:37:18 [johnsimpson]
16:37:21 [npdoty]
(as justin points out, it seems roughly similar to DAA text.)
16:37:23 [susanisrael]
how similar is this definition to DAA definition? (this is from editor's draft)...but we don't have to do this now....
16:37:32 [fielding]
my desire is to have time to discuss the definition at the F2F
16:37:42 [Aleecia]
16:37:42 [susanisrael]
so to roy there is language in daa code and i am open to having some discussion about this....
16:37:57 [Aleecia]
16:37:59 [justin]
Multi-Site Data is data collected from a particular computer or device regarding Web viewing over time and across non-Affiliate Web sites
16:38:01 [fielding]
… so that the group as a whole agrees on one definition moving forward.
16:38:09 [susanisrael]
mikezaneis: i think these 2 defs are close substantively, but the daa one is not as technical, though it is very broad....
16:38:26 [npdoty]
ack justin
16:38:27 [susanisrael]
justin: agree with mike zaneis that daa def is broad and similar....
16:38:58 [Mike_Zaneis]
Sid, we have over 3,000 companies signed up, so participation is extremely broad.
16:39:00 [susanisrael] do we deal with these little issues we have been working on such as multiple first parties, all of tpe or do these issues fit with new framework....
16:39:11 [vinay]
vinay has joined #dnt
16:39:20 [Aleecia]
Roy, you told me to put comments on the mailing list (re: defn tracking.) I did. It was /dev/null'ed by all group members. What would you have me do instead?
16:39:48 [susanisrael]
peterswire: i have some thoughts, have not gone throught hese things with people working on daa....there is learning process here, have asked yanni and others to do delta (or side by side) of daa code/compliance spe....
16:40:33 [susanisrael]
will have comparisons, and there will places with similar topics, direction, but sometimes exact wording = similar but not identical....sometimes daa code seems stronger.....
16:40:43 [fielding]
Aleecia, not sure what thread that was, but you could have declared consensus at that point and written it into the draft.
16:40:58 [susanisrael]
a very useful thing on particular issues is to look at those comparisons....
16:41:21 [Zakim]
+ +1.202.587.aatt
16:41:25 [Aleecia]
If I were an evil weasel :-)
16:41:28 [susanisrael]
if there is enough progress so that it seems DF makes sense, there will be work streams coming out of that.....
16:41:40 [Aleecia]
But I'm not
16:42:08 [susanisrael]
we may ask DAA to do some work on this....and w3c spec may also exist in some form for NON-DAA participants, for whom compliance spec may be precisely the applicable language.....
16:42:19 [jpolonet4]
jpolonet4 has joined #DNT
16:42:23 [johnsimpson]
16:42:26 [susanisrael]
how to interweave 2 regimes is a common lawyer task, and there are different ways to do it.....
16:42:38 [fielding]
it isn't evil for a WG to make progress by inserting/editing text until there is a common agreement
16:42:48 [npdoty]
Reminder: if you're calling from +1.650.241.aall, +1.917.934.aakk, +1.202.331.aaoo, +1.415.999.aarr, +1.202.587.aatt -- we need to identify your numbers, or drop you from the call.
16:42:48 [susanisrael]
this is a piece of homework to identify where these 2 things fit, and where they don't people will work on it....
16:42:57 [peterswire]
16:43:02 [susanisrael]
list of issues is similar, but language is not the same....
16:43:03 [npdoty]
Zakim, drop aall
16:43:03 [Zakim]
+1.650.241.aall is being disconnected
16:43:05 [Zakim]
- +1.650.241.aall
16:43:08 [npdoty]
Zakim, drop aakk
16:43:08 [Zakim]
+1.917.934.aakk is being disconnected
16:43:10 [Zakim]
- +1.917.934.aakk
16:43:13 [npdoty]
Zakim, drop aaoo
16:43:13 [Zakim]
+1.202.331.aaoo is being disconnected
16:43:14 [Aleecia]
I'm not an editor nor a cochair -- if I still have write access it's a bug
16:43:14 [Zakim]
- +1.202.331.aaoo
16:43:17 [npdoty]
Zakim, drop aarr
16:43:17 [Zakim]
+1.415.999.aarr is being disconnected
16:43:17 [susanisrael]
jonathan mayer: thanks to peter for laying out ...
16:43:18 [Zakim]
- +1.415.999.aarr
16:43:21 [npdoty]
Zakim, drop aatt
16:43:21 [Zakim]
+1.202.587.aatt is being disconnected
16:43:22 [Zakim]
- +1.202.587.aatt
16:43:32 [Zakim]
+ +1.650.241.aauu
16:43:33 [susanisrael]
16:43:44 [tara]
tara has joined #dnt
16:43:47 [npdoty]
scribenick: npdoty
16:43:49 [Chapell]
yes - i'll
16:43:51 [Chapell]
16:43:54 [Zakim]
+ +1.202.587.aavv
16:43:54 [npdoty]
scribenick: Chapell
16:43:59 [dwainberg]
dwainberg has joined #dnt
16:44:02 [tlr]
who just rejoined?
16:44:02 [Zakim]
16:44:08 [justin]
susanisrael, is 202.587.xxxx you?
16:44:11 [Zakim]
16:44:27 [Zakim]
+ +1.415.999.aaww
16:44:29 [Chapell]
jmayer: with regard to framework, some may see it as a path forward, others may see it as similar to previous proposals - not clear if this offers a path forward...
16:44:42 [justin]
justin has joined #dnt
16:44:54 [Chapell]
.... we should work through triggering steps that would constitute 'failure' by the group
16:45:33 [Chapell]
.... we may be going in circles --- at some point, we need to recognize that it may be time to move on
16:45:39 [justin]
16:45:43 [justin]
ack jmayer
16:45:48 [Zakim]
+ +1.917.934.aaxx
16:45:52 [tlr]
susan, is that you?
16:46:04 [npdoty]
Zakim, aaxx is susanisrael
16:46:04 [Zakim]
+susanisrael; got it
16:46:30 [susanisrael]
*chappell ok scribing now or should i?
16:46:31 [Chapell]
peterswire: trying to give his best sense of the universe, others assess facts differently... we have a last call through july with no additional f2f. if we do it in sunnyvale, that's great
16:46:57 [Chapell]
.... however, we may realize that consensus and progress is not happening... one option is to have the compliance spec published
16:47:31 [Chapell]
.... 1. successs, 2. mid-ground (compliance spec publishing) 3. failure --- three potential options
16:47:32 [jmayer]
Would it be OK if I responded here, Aleecia?
16:47:42 [amyc]
amyc has joined #dnt
16:47:49 [Aleecia]
Sure, I can wait
16:47:53 [jmayer]
16:47:55 [Aleecia]
16:47:56 [Zakim]
+ +1.202.331.aayy
16:48:08 [jpolonet4]
Zakim 202 587 is jules
16:48:18 [npdoty]
Zakim, aavv is jpolonet4
16:48:18 [Zakim]
+jpolonet4; got it
16:48:22 [Chapell]
... failure should be last option --- do we want to build a contingency plan for failure... not clear
16:48:24 [peterswire]
16:48:44 [justin]
zakim, who is on the phone?
16:48:44 [Zakim]
On the phone I see thomas, PaulGlist, npdoty, rvaneijk, prestia, Peder_Magee, BerinSzoka, susanisrael, efelten, Lmastria_DAA, hober (muted), robsherman?, jchester2 (muted),
16:48:48 [Zakim]
... johnsimpson, Yianni (muted), eberkower, [Microsoft], Mike_Zaneis, ??P0, peterswire?, hwest, Bin_Hu (muted), Brooks, Keith_Scarborough, Chris_Pedigo, Fielding, tara?, Chapell,
16:48:48 [Zakim]
... Aleecia, adrianba (muted), [CDT], phildpearce, Dan_Auerbach, rachel_n_thomas, WileyS, [FTC], Jonathan_Mayer, David_MacMillan, billscan?, [Mozilla], RichardWeaver, hefferjr,
16:48:49 [Zakim]
... bryan, robsherman, +1.650.241.aauu, jpolonet4, [Microsoft.a], +1.415.999.aaww, susanisrael.a, +1.202.331.aayy
16:48:49 [Zakim]
[Mozilla] has sidstamm
16:49:08 [rvaneijk]
here is the link to the posting Peter referred to:
16:49:08 [Chapell]
Jmayer: clarifying --- we should have a check in after the meeting to see if we should move forward.... but also...
16:49:20 [Zakim]
16:49:55 [Chapell]
..... iterating on work streams is the path of least reistence... hard part is determining when iterating on those streams isn't productive. Can we say that if XXX doesn't happen by YYYYY date, that's it?
16:50:05 [Chapell]
.... otherwise, its too easy to keep on keeping in
16:50:07 [Zakim]
+ +1.650.787.aazz - is perhaps billscan?
16:50:19 [tlr]
zakim, billscan is really billscan
16:50:19 [Zakim]
+billscan; got it
16:50:59 [Chapell]
PeterSwire: Welcome's Jmayers input, but doesn't have an opinion on this right now. He believes that "just more of the same" won't be an effective answer for people on the wg
16:51:10 [npdoty]
If you're calling from +1.650.241.aauu
16:51:11 [npdoty]
16:51:12 [npdoty]
16:51:18 [Chapell]
.... we need to finish this by next week
16:51:20 [npdoty]
we still need to identify your numbers.
16:51:46 [peterswire]
16:51:48 [Chapell]
Aleecia: To respond to Roy -- echo's Roy's comments. The proposal is a step forward
16:51:51 [npdoty]
ack Aleecia
16:52:06 [Zakim]
16:52:08 [Chapell]
... we've done the multi-proposal idea before... gone from 5 to 2
16:52:19 [jmayer]
Glad to hear Peter will have a presumption against the utility of further meetings unless there is significant progress at the face-to-face next week.
16:52:35 [Chapell]
.... but have been stuck since... the recent proposals allows us to refine one of the two proposals we've beeen discussing.
16:52:43 [Chris_IAB]
Aleecia, to clarify, this is NOT the "DAA proposal"
16:52:51 [Zakim]
+ +1.703.360.bbaa
16:53:02 [ChrisPedigoOPA]
bbaa is ChrisPedigoOPA
16:53:08 [Chapell]
.... Aleecia recommends working on the new proposal and updating the draft... if there are updates coming from the privacy side, now would be a good time.
16:53:12 [Chris_IAB]
Aleecia, its a framework that Peter Swire put together, in consultations with many parties
16:53:16 [npdoty]
Zakim, bbaa is ChrisPedigoOPA
16:53:16 [Zakim]
+ChrisPedigoOPA; got it
16:53:17 [rvaneijk]
16:53:29 [Mike_Zaneis]
We have ~90 days left until Last Call, after 20 months of working in this group why would we pull the plug before the end of July?
16:53:39 [Chapell]
.... she wants to start with concepts and moving to standards language --- but needs to happen quickly or this doesn't move forward.
16:53:56 [Chapell]
.... recognizes some work and advancement
16:53:57 [Mike_Zaneis]
Seems worth the last push for 3 months to try to get to a productive product.
16:54:03 [johnsimpson]
16:54:06 [npdoty]
ack rvaneijk
16:54:30 [Chapell]
RobvE: when will there be a DAA proposal? is one forthcoming?
16:55:17 [Chapell]
Zaneis: we haven't been asked to put together a proposal, but we're happy to discuss the latest framework. DAA looks forward to participating next week and this framework has alot from both side.
16:55:20 [Aleecia]
Does DAA not support the proposal?
16:55:30 [npdoty]
Zakim, who is making noise?
16:55:33 [Aleecia]
Because lets not joke -- this was a proposal
16:55:41 [Zakim]
npdoty, listening for 10 seconds I could not identify any sounds
16:55:54 [Marc]
Marc has joined #dnt
16:55:55 [Chapell]
LouMastria: DAA contributed to the proposal but did not draft. It changes how the DAA operates... they are willing to do that, but there is no plan to any proposing at this time.
16:55:59 [vinay_]
vinay_ has joined #dnt
16:56:18 [justin]
This is getting a bit meta.
16:56:32 [Chapell]
Zaneis: people may see the recent proposal as "DAA" because Stu went through it -- it is not a DAA proposal.
16:57:11 [Chapell]
PeterSwire: Always a question re: when to be at a high level and when to be at a more granular level. Its not real until its at normative language level
16:57:19 [Chris_IAB]
Aleecia, DAA supports working through the framework that peterswire has laid out.
16:57:50 [Aleecia]
You guys are hilarious
16:58:01 [Aleecia]
Does, or does not, the DAA support the proposal?
16:58:02 [Chapell]
.... we've tried to work on normative language --- had concrete proposal. My own view --- with all the interdependencies --- until folks see the whole thing, its difficult to evaluate individual parts.
16:58:17 [Aleecia]
If no one supports it, it's DOA.
16:58:29 [Chapell]
..... relucatance to say something is closed as a result
16:58:31 [Aleecia]
We should not discuss a proposal with zero supporters
16:58:50 [Chapell]
... given this, is there a strategy that could lead to something that the wg ciould support
16:58:59 [Chris_IAB]
Aleecia, I'm failing to see the humor? But in any case, we support working through the framework laid out by peterswire.
16:59:10 [jmayer]
16:59:36 [Chapell]
... Given interdependencies, this gives us a change in a short period of time to have a conversation that says we really have something.
16:59:49 [Aleecia]
It's not a framework. And Peter tells us he wrote very little of it: it's not Peter's
17:00:09 [peterswire]
17:00:14 [Aleecia]
This is no more a framework than the five prior proposals were
17:00:38 [Aleecia]
And if it has no backers, we're done
17:00:43 [Chapell]
Jmayer: concerned that whatever the sourcing is, that this seems to substantively an iterations of one of the two previous proposals....
17:01:00 [justin]
I have to run. I don't care what we call this or from where precisely it came.
17:01:03 [Chapell]
.... why seize upon one of the proposals rather than the other proposal (as someone who worked on the other proposal)....
17:01:09 [Zakim]
17:01:10 [npdoty]
I thought it was clear that DAA representatives supported the Draft Framework (and the changes it implied), but wanted to distinguish that it was not their proposal alone. (just trying to help us not talk past one another)
17:01:11 [Aleecia]
And they said slapstick is dead :-)
17:01:25 [peterswire]
17:01:26 [Chapell]
.... the two proposals were not in alignment. This feels like picking winners and losers at a high level.
17:01:29 [npdoty]
ack jmayer
17:01:30 [vinay]
vinay has joined #dnt
17:01:41 [Aleecia]
Which is why I refered to it as "DAA and friends, including Peter"
17:01:48 [tlr]
zakim, mute aleecia
17:01:48 [Zakim]
Aleecia should now be muted
17:01:50 [Chris_IAB]
Aleecia, Peter laid it out himself on today's call, as a "framework". Semantics aside, I personally support a good DNT solution from W3C
17:01:52 [npdoty]
Zakim, who is making noise?
17:01:53 [Chapell]
PeterSwire: agenda for next week
17:02:02 [Zakim]
npdoty, listening for 10 seconds I heard sound from the following: hwest (39%)
17:02:03 [Aleecia]
I was muted, but thanks Thomas
17:02:19 [hwest]
Eek, sorry guys
17:02:54 [Chapell]
PeterSwire: the words that are here have emerged in this proposal that came from multiple sources... this framework represents a diverse set of opinions with input from many
17:03:03 [npdoty]
Reminder: if you're calling from -- +1.650.241.aauu +1.415.999.aaww +1.202.331.aayy -- we need to identify your numbers, or drop you from the call.
17:03:08 [npdoty]
Zakim, drop aauu
17:03:08 [Zakim]
+1.650.241.aauu is being disconnected
17:03:09 [Zakim]
- +1.650.241.aauu
17:03:11 [npdoty]
Zakim, drop aaww
17:03:11 [Zakim]
+1.415.999.aaww is being disconnected
17:03:12 [Zakim]
- +1.415.999.aaww
17:03:14 [npdoty]
Zakim, drop aayy
17:03:14 [Zakim]
+1.202.331.aayy is being disconnected
17:03:15 [Zakim]
- +1.202.331.aayy
17:03:18 [jchester2]
Whatever was presented in the doc yesterday, in my opinon, did not represent any agreement/consensus from the NGO community
17:03:31 [jmayer]
Peter, claiming this reflects advocate input is an unacceptable dodge. DAA is supportive of the direction. Advocates are not. This is taking sides.
17:03:34 [Chapell]
..... next week agenda: begin monday at noon with intro session.... mid afternoon, the mkt research folks are brining over a tech expert and we will have a discussion on mkt research exception
17:03:52 [jchester2]
17:03:59 [jchester2]
zakim, unmute me
17:03:59 [Zakim]
jchester2 should no longer be muted
17:04:05 [Chapell]
..... some discussion on product improvement is likely on monday
17:04:07 [Zakim]
+ +1.202.331.bbbb
17:04:17 [Peter-4As]
202-331 is Peter Kosmala
17:04:26 [npdoty]
Zakim, bbbb is Peter-4As
17:04:26 [Zakim]
+Peter-4As; got it
17:04:40 [Chapell]
..... tuesday morning: TPE will be the focus. TPE related aspects to the draft framework. Matthias not available, but David Singer will help
17:05:02 [Chapell]
... no detailed agenda for Tues afternoon and Wed.... agenda will come from specific proposals re: convergence
17:05:06 [Aleecia]
Sounds to me like the first order in discussing this is to find out if there's more support for the new proposal than the old proposal on the ad side.
17:05:30 [Chapell]
.... for example, we need brainstorming on how to address the UID issue. This is the most challenging single issue for us to work out
17:06:02 [Chapell]
.... If we address UID, we have a shot... if not, it will be uphill battle to say this least.
17:06:08 [Aleecia]
If not, if it's not seen as improvement over what's there, we're done. That would surprise me -- I think there's a lot of work here. But that's the first question
17:06:15 [peterswire]
17:06:19 [Aleecia]
If no one supports, we're done
17:06:22 [npdoty]
ack jchester2
17:06:26 [npdoty]
ack jchester
17:06:36 [BerinSzoka]
BerinSzoka has joined #DNT
17:06:54 [Chapell]
JChester: document doesn't reflect agreement from the NGO's that he knows... But appreciates the effort....
17:06:59 [BerinSzoka]
Gary Shteyngart would be proud: "Together We'll Surprise the World!"
17:07:12 [Aleecia]
If privacy doesn't support, no surprise, that's fine: there's a competing proposal on the table
17:07:13 [Chapell]
... can we bring in outside experts?
17:07:14 [johnsimpson]
17:07:50 [Chapell]
.... we want to know all the facts... hard to agree until we know. We need more outside experts
17:07:54 [jchester2]
zakim, mute me
17:07:54 [Zakim]
jchester2 should now be muted
17:08:35 [Chris_IAB]
expert right here on the working group :)
17:08:44 [Chris_IAB]
Chris Mejia raises hand...
17:08:52 [Chapell]
PeterSwire: open to get additional experts... if some of them can help with permitted uses or UID's that would be great. We welcome an informed discussion.
17:09:01 [dan_auerbach]
17:09:08 [tlr]
zakizakim, zakim, q?
17:09:21 [tlr]
argh, network funkiness
17:09:32 [Chapell]
... open to additional input, discussion.
17:09:32 [npdoty]
If you haven't heard back from me yet about registration issues, you should do so today.
17:09:34 [Zakim]
17:09:35 [Zakim]
17:09:35 [Zakim]
17:09:36 [Zakim]
17:09:36 [Zakim]
17:09:36 [Zakim]
17:09:37 [Zakim]
17:09:37 [Zakim]
17:09:37 [Zakim]
17:09:37 [Zakim]
17:09:38 [Zakim]
17:09:38 [Zakim]
17:09:39 [Zakim]
17:09:39 [Zakim]
17:09:39 [Zakim]
17:09:39 [Zakim]
17:09:40 [Zakim]
17:09:40 [Zakim]
17:09:42 [npdoty]
Zakim, please list attendees
17:09:42 [Zakim]
17:09:42 [Zakim]
17:09:42 [Zakim]
17:09:42 [Zakim]
17:09:42 [Zakim]
17:09:42 [Zakim]
17:09:43 [Zakim]
As of this point the attendees have been thomas, +1.202.973.aaaa, npdoty, PaulGlist, rvaneijk, +1.202.331.aabb, prestia, Peder_Magee, +1.202.478.aacc, BerinSzoka, +1.215.286.aadd,
17:09:43 [Zakim]
... +1.609.258.aaee, +1.212.768.aaff, Amy_Colando, +1.619.846.aagg, +1.202.257.aahh, hober, jchester2, johnsimpson, Yianni, robsherman?, eberkower, [Microsoft], +1.202.344.aaii,
17:09:43 [Zakim]
... +1.404.385.aajj, hwest, Bin_Hu, Lmastria_DAA, Brooks, Keith_Scarborough, +1.917.934.aakk, Chris_Pedigo, [GVoice], +1.650.241.aall, Fielding, susanisrael, Chapell,
17:09:43 [Zakim]
... +1.650.283.aamm, Aleecia, adrianba, phildpearce, [CDT], Dan_Auerbach, +1.202.478.aann, WileyS, [FTC], Jonathan_Mayer, Mike_Zaneis, rachel_n_thomas, tara?, +1.202.331.aaoo,
17:09:46 [Zakim]
... +1.202.370.aapp, David_MacMillan, +1.650.787.aaqq, [Facebook]?, sidstamm, RichardWeaver, +1.415.999.aarr, hefferjr, bryan, +1.650.391.aass, robsherman, +1.202.587.aatt,
17:09:46 [Zakim]
... +1.650.241.aauu, +1.202.587.aavv, +1.415.999.aaww, +1.917.934.aaxx, +1.202.331.aayy, jpolonet4, +1.650.787.aazz, billscan, +1.703.360.bbaa, ChrisPedigoOPA, +1.202.331.bbbb,
17:09:46 [Zakim]
... Peter-4As
17:09:46 [Zakim]
17:09:46 [Zakim]
17:09:47 [Zakim]
17:09:47 [Zakim]
17:09:47 [Zakim]
17:09:47 [Zakim]
17:09:50 [Zakim]
17:09:50 [Zakim]
17:09:50 [Zakim]
17:09:51 [Zakim]
+ +1.916.323.bbcc
17:09:51 [Zakim]
17:09:52 [Zakim]
17:09:52 [Zakim]
17:09:53 [Zakim]
17:09:53 [Zakim]
17:09:54 [Zakim]
17:09:55 [Zakim]
17:09:57 [Zakim]
17:09:57 [Zakim]
17:09:59 [Zakim]
17:10:03 [Zakim]
17:10:10 [Zakim]
17:10:21 [npdoty]
rrsagent, draft the minutes
17:10:21 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate npdoty
17:10:22 [Zakim]
17:10:57 [npdoty]
chair: peterswire
17:11:04 [npdoty]
rrsagent, draft the minutes
17:11:04 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate npdoty
17:11:22 [Zakim]
17:11:54 [JM]
JM has joined #dnt
17:11:58 [npdoty]
npdoty has joined #dnt
17:12:28 [Zakim]
- +1.916.323.bbcc
17:12:29 [Zakim]
T&S_Track(dnt)12:00PM has ended
17:12:29 [Zakim]
Attendees were thomas, +1.202.973.aaaa, npdoty, PaulGlist, rvaneijk, +1.202.331.aabb, prestia, Peder_Magee, +1.202.478.aacc, BerinSzoka, +1.215.286.aadd, +1.609.258.aaee,
17:12:29 [Zakim]
... +1.212.768.aaff, Amy_Colando, +1.619.846.aagg, +1.202.257.aahh, hober, jchester2, johnsimpson, Yianni, robsherman?, eberkower, [Microsoft], +1.202.344.aaii, +1.404.385.aajj,
17:12:31 [Zakim]
... hwest, Bin_Hu, Lmastria_DAA, Brooks, Keith_Scarborough, +1.917.934.aakk, Chris_Pedigo, [GVoice], +1.650.241.aall, Fielding, susanisrael, Chapell, +1.650.283.aamm, Aleecia,
17:12:31 [Zakim]
... adrianba, phildpearce, [CDT], Dan_Auerbach, +1.202.478.aann, WileyS, [FTC], Jonathan_Mayer, Mike_Zaneis, rachel_n_thomas, tara?, +1.202.331.aaoo, +1.202.370.aapp,
17:12:36 [Zakim]
... David_MacMillan, +1.650.787.aaqq, [Facebook]?, sidstamm, RichardWeaver, +1.415.999.aarr, hefferjr, bryan, +1.650.391.aass, robsherman, +1.202.587.aatt, +1.650.241.aauu,
17:12:36 [Zakim]
... +1.202.587.aavv, +1.415.999.aaww, +1.917.934.aaxx, +1.202.331.aayy, jpolonet4, +1.650.787.aazz, billscan, +1.703.360.bbaa, ChrisPedigoOPA, +1.202.331.bbbb, Peter-4As,
17:12:36 [Zakim]
... +1.916.323.bbcc
17:12:57 [Zakim]
T&S_Track(dnt)12:00PM has now started
17:13:02 [Zakim]
T&S_Track(dnt)12:00PM has ended
17:13:03 [Zakim]
Attendees were
17:13:30 [johnsimpson]
johnsimpson has left #dnt
17:25:47 [vinay]
vinay has joined #dnt
19:00:32 [schunter]
schunter has joined #dnt
19:25:39 [tlr]
rrsagent, pointer?
19:25:39 [RRSAgent]