14:45:00 RRSAgent has joined #closingthegap 14:45:00 logging to http://www.w3.org/2013/04/30-closingthegap-irc 14:45:08 Zakim, this will be CTGH 14:45:08 ok, dom; I see MWI_(CLOSING)11:00AM scheduled to start in 15 minutes 14:45:13 RRSAgent, make log public 14:45:26 Agenda: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-closingthegap/2013Apr/0038.html 14:45:28 Chair: Dom 14:45:41 Regrets: Charles, Frederick 14:57:14 Zakim, code? 14:57:14 the conference code is 2844 (tel:+1.617.761.6200 sip:zakim@voip.w3.org), dom 14:57:28 MWI_(CLOSING)11:00AM has now started 14:57:35 +??P0 14:57:37 Zakim, ??P0 is me 14:57:37 +dom; got it 14:59:16 jo has joined #closingthegap 15:00:14 +??P9 15:00:25 Zakim, ??P9 is jo 15:00:25 +jo; got it 15:00:27 zakim, p9 is me 15:00:27 sorry, jo, I do not recognize a party named 'p9' 15:01:42 + +1.650.265.aaaa 15:01:59 Zakim, aaaa is Scott_Jenson 15:01:59 +Scott_Jenson; got it 15:02:34 ScottJ has joined #closingthegap 15:04:32 Zakim, who's your daddy? 15:04:32 Ralph is taking good care of me but you all are my family, dom 15:05:40 + +1.908.208.aabb 15:06:13 - +1.908.208.aabb 15:06:41 + +1.908.208.aacc 15:07:10 Zakim, aacc is Dan.Sun 15:07:10 +Dan.Sun; got it 15:07:40 +Christine_Perey 15:09:10 Zakim, who's on the call? 15:09:10 On the phone I see dom, jo, Scott_Jenson, Dan.Sun, Christine_Perey 15:09:16 dan has joined #closingthegap 15:10:16 +[IPcaller] 15:10:32 Zakim, IPcaller is Marcos 15:10:32 +Marcos; got it 15:10:42 Marcos has joined #closingthegap 15:11:39 nope 15:11:56 scribe: Jo 15:12:05 Meeting: Closing the Gap 15:12:14 Topic: intro 15:12:39 dom: everyone clear as to the purpose of the meeting, to develop action plans as mentioned in the email 15:12:57 dom: going round the table. say something, say hello. 15:13:17 dom: have we covered the main topics ? 15:13:43 Jo: Jo Rabin, have been involved in a few W3C things, W3C Mobile Web Best Practices WG, and the W3C CoreMob CG 15:14:00 ... I'm interested in Mobile Web, not particularly interested in native apps even though they may have a place in the universe 15:14:29 ... I believe the main things of interest have been mentioned, despite relative lack of in depth analysis 15:14:40 ... I'm not sure we have aligned mind sets on the key points yet 15:15:20 scott: first W3C meeting here to learn, approach from a design point of view 15:15:49 ... don't want to push for a tech agenda, want to now what an app is, what are the things that make the Web special 15:16:06 ... looking at the problem from a high level point of view 15:16:36 dan: have been involved in the [Coremob] community group, appreciate Dom's work 15:16:50 ... what's the advantage of the Web? There was a discussion, still not too clear 15:17:25 ... we are trying to close the gap, we have a number of issues to work out, I'd like to bring up the advantages as well as working on the gaps 15:18:01 dom: agree on the point re the advantage of the web, are you saying we haven't looked, or haven't looked deeply enough? 15:18:16 dan: would be good to have a document, more than the one email discussion 15:18:27 dom: I'll put my thoughts on the list 15:19:15 christine: came into the discussion becasue I was aware of the Coremob work, work in AR, want to see it as a feature of all presentation vehicles rather than being 'an app' 15:20:11 ... been working in AR stds community for 4 years, regularly come around on Web vs Native, lots of W3C standards that could make AR part of the browser experience but they are not being used that way 15:20:23 dom: encourage you to raise that gap on the list 15:20:40 christine: I wouldn't be the best person to represent all devs 15:20:58 dom: your own point of view would be welcome 15:21:17 Marcos: involved with sysapps WG - there is an obvious overlap between this and that 15:21:31 ... think that the stuff Dom has brought together is great 15:21:47 ... good to have brought the ideas together 15:22:06 ... sysapps is interested to hear what comes out so we can address as soon as possible 15:22:13 dom: what gaps do you see? 15:22:38 marcos: gaps everywhere. working on a lot of technologues to address those gaps 15:22:47 ... Web has of itself lots of advantages 15:23:05 ... should be a sense of urgency about closing and leap-frogging the native app space 15:23:22 ... have a good set of technologies, just need to bring it together 15:23:37 Dom: introducing myself, head of W3C Mobile Web Intiative 15:23:51 ... edit Standards for Mobile Web Apps, summary of where things are 15:24:09 ... also been working Coremob on to be the Web and Mobile IG 15:24:22 ... as to gaps ... I've tried to push all that I had 15:25:23 ... but realise I forgot integrating Content into search in local context, not available to Web apps, some oppos for integration 15:25:42 ... lots of [alphabet soup] :-) 15:26:17 Scott: this is tarting the conversation as to what are the primary goals, Google already working on a model to install Web apps 15:26:27 ... but this does not play to the super power of the Web 15:26:42 ... do we want to be installed, or do we want to experience the app 15:27:04 ... need to distinguish the packaging from the experience 15:27:14 dom: mostly about integration with the environment 15:27:27 ... Web apps should be able to integrate with this 15:28:02 ... question you raise and that we have struggled with is how far do we want to copy the native app experience, and how far do we want to push the no-install purely in browser experience 15:28:30 ... W3C is pursuing both spproaches. there are advantages to both so that is reasonable 15:28:56 ... there is a wealth of opportunities that installation removes (... lack of censorship and so on ...) 15:29:13 ... all of us on the call and list believe that the Web brings specific unique advantages 15:29:29 ... a long term platform that =has the right level of investmanet attnetion etc. 15:29:48 ... need to think about wehre native apps are superior 15:30:04 ... leapfrog as Marcos says is better than closing the gap 15:30:24 ... pur intallable vs pure in-browser is something we could address and include in various proposals 15:30:47 ... [comapre and contrast what we could say about pros and cons] 15:31:16 ... we need to have clear understanding of advantages and drawback of both approaches 15:31:32 ... social contract discussion was pretty rich in that regard 15:31:50 ... but where does that leave us in thinking about investment 15:32:26 ... so goal is to figure where to apply resources 15:32:28 Well put, I just don't want us to aspire to catch up to where apps were 5 years ago. The web can go beyond what native apps can't do.. 15:32:37 q+ 15:32:59 Jo: I feel pretty strongly that there are areas that the Web has been left in the dust 15:33:37 ... there are real areas: mindshare, monetization, ... 15:34:04 ... I feel our energy would be best invested in bringing forward the Web advantages 15:34:12 ... that's where we're most likely to be successful 15:34:19 ... where the Web is unique 15:34:31 ... in particular, in the cross-platform realm 15:34:47 ... as long as the Web is good enough compared to native otherwise 15:35:07 ack me 15:35:56 ScottJ_ has joined #closingthegap 15:36:34 dom: that's a clear position, I think I agree with that characterisation with the possible exception that the Web may not be good enough in any particular area 15:36:37 q+ 15:36:45 jo: I don't disagree with what you say 15:36:59 ]dan: I wagree with Jo, we should look at the unique advantages of the Web 15:37:16 +1 15:37:17 ... to simply say close the gap, the topic is huge, native has its own advantages 15:37:25 ... emaphasie the Web's advantages 15:37:45 s/emaphasie/emphasize/ 15:38:10 dom: was only one of the starting points, we haven't discussed it much and will send my thoughts on this 15:38:31 I'm signing off for toda 15:38:33 ... will people contribute their dieas on how we can captialize on the unique advantages of the Web 15:38:35 bye 15:38:42 -Christine_Perey 15:39:01 ... I'll do my best tos end my thoughts and hope that people will sent theirs too 15:39:16 topic: Run though of list of Topics and Action Plan 15:39:33 dom: I sent a description earlier on list 15:40:00 ... also sent list of actions that W3C could take e.g. create WG, workshops, putting more resources into WG 15:40:05 ... etc etc etc 15:40:28 ... for each topic I'd like to see what action could be taken 15:40:50 ... and to assess whether people think that this is a sensible action plan 15:40:58 ... may be difficult to get hold of people 15:41:10 ... task force will support people taking actions 15:41:24 ... if we don't make proposals then we won't get more resources 15:41:34 ... important to get actual stuff defined and proposed 15:41:49 ... so one by one on the list 15:42:02 topic: Support for Offline Operations 15:42:24 Dom: the existing technologies are "underwhelming", there is work in this space 15:42:41 ... work is very important for a huge number of use cases 15:42:52 ... would make sense to make a plan to accelerate that work 15:43:00 +1 on it being importan 15:43:19 marcos: yes, important, Mozilla has made a proposal 15:43:30 http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-webapps/2013JanMar/0977.html 15:43:39 dom: was linked from my original message 15:44:02 marcos: tricky to get realistic, difficult to get momentum 15:44:15 dom: agree difficult to get browser vendor buy-in 15:44:31 ... one way would be to get feedback from wide variety of developers 15:44:36 ... could help test 15:44:41 ... light fires under people 15:44:54 ... Alex Russel from Google also made a proposal 15:45:07 ... anyone going to make a stab at making an action plan 15:45:26 ... aw, shucks, I'll take this one, but I am not going to do all of them! 15:45:28 ACTION: Dom to create action plan for offline support 15:45:29 https://github.com/slightlyoff/NavigationController 15:45:52 marcos: what's the alternative proposal 15:46:04 dom: navigation controller 15:46:06 marcos: https://github.com/slightlyoff/NavigationController 15:47:41 jo: surely this is a discussion that has happened in depth and one of the participants could take lead? 15:47:58 dom: yes, I'll contact Tobie and Robin 15:48:08 topic: Network Optimizations 15:48:30 dom: to be effective on mobile you need to be reactive to various network conditions 15:48:45 ... especially for download etc. 15:49:00 ... related is that operators are suffeering from badly managed movbile operation 15:49:11 ... couple of proposals on list on how we can address this 15:49:19 ... anyone want to pick this up? 15:49:32 ... Dan is an operator, how about it? 15:49:51 jo: how about Dan Appelquist 15:50:00 Marcos: work is important but very broad 15:50:09 ... does it make sense to break it up 15:50:25 ... responsive images ... relationship with HTTP 2.0 15:50:42 s.P 2.P/2. 15:50:55 dom: you volunteering? 15:51:23 marcos: already doing work on this, what are you looking for? 15:51:30 + +1.512.257.aadd 15:51:53 dom: come up with an action plan ... looking at broad topic and suggestion actions that will make the Web more competitive 15:51:54 virginie has joined #closingthegap 15:52:08 ... see the link with Resposive Images, wouldn't want to limit it 15:52:19 Marcos: I know waht I know about 15:52:49 ... but don't know the whole perspective from an operator so would want to work with someone like Dan Appelquist 15:53:05 dom: want one name, you can then work with anyone you like 15:53:19 Happy to help 15:53:21 ... plus tobie and bryan from AT&T 15:53:34 ... no shortage of people to pick their brains 15:53:38 Marcos: OK 15:53:41 ACTION: Marcos to define action plan for network optimizations 15:53:53 topic: Searching Web Apps 15:54:17 dom: we discussed earlier highlight benefit of Web, this is at the the frontier 15:54:28 ... traditionally Web is the platform for searching 15:54:35 ... huge beneit 15:55:23 ... that said I it works well for content it don't work work too good for local content, content behind walls etc. 15:55:52 ... search is less effective. Devs say that if I want my stuff to be visible I need to be on native app store 15:56:28 ... very little interest in app store model, lack of visibility of Web apps keeps people from using Web app approach 15:56:37 ... anyone going to look deeper into this? 15:56:59 ... that means folks don't think important 15:57:06 ... I'll try to stick this to Chaals 15:57:26 ... otherwise we wont be recommending it 15:57:35 topic: Web Apps User Experience 15:57:53 dom: finding the right balance between integration and the lack of installation 15:58:10 ... what can W3C do to help in that convo 15:58:25 ... we don't have a clear idea at all about what W3C could or should be doing 15:58:27 I'd love to help but I'm such a w3c noob I'm worried that I might not have the right approach 15:58:36 ... action plan to refocus on some specific ideas 15:58:50 ... Scott you are the ideal geezer to do this 15:59:21 +q 15:59:36 ... need to find out if any of the topics we have discussed needs acrtion, not only from W3C, but how can W3C help? 15:59:41 great, sign me up, but be prepared for a few phone calls... ;-) 15:59:42 ack m 15:59:45 q- dan 16:00:03 marcos: at the last Webapps meeting Mozilla proposed a manifest format 16:00:07 http://manifest.sysapps.org/ 16:00:26 ... which basically serves as the installation manifest for Web application 16:00:39 ... topic relates to installed and not installed and where they come together 16:00:49 ... interested in pushing the work in W3C 16:01:09 ... has been in ??? but moving over to Webapps which has more browser vendors 16:01:24 16:01:36 ... want to look at this from a higher level, less tech perspective, look at use cases 16:01:40 thanks, enjoyed this! 16:01:41 bye 16:01:44 ... scott's on the hook! 16:01:52 ACTION: ScottJ to lead work on action plan for web apps UX 16:01:53 -Scott_Jenson 16:03:51 -jo 16:03:59 jo has left #closingthegap 16:04:24 dom: the next one is security 16:05:41 dom: Luckly we have virginie here. This one deals with secure transactions, securing data. We've had a short discussion on the list already. I feel there is no reason why the Web should be behind with regards to security. 16:06:04 dom: I'm looking for expressions of support. And for a volunteer. 16:06:34 virginie: we (Gemalto) are interested in this area. 16:07:08 dom: what I'm looking for is for someone to help document what the gaps are between native and web with regards to crypto and security. 16:07:14 virginie: what's the deadline 16:07:23 virginie: ? 16:07:42 dom: sometime in the next 3 or 4 weeks? 16:08:00 virginie: I'm not sure if I can do it that quickly. But I will do my best :) 16:08:33 ACTION: Virginie to lead work on action plan for Security of Web apps 16:08:35 dom: thanks. I'm not asking for a complete analysis, just for a fairly light analysis of the gap to help guide us. 16:09:48 dom: another one that I wanted to mention, which has received limited attention on the list is AppCache. AppCache has had issues, even though it's been around for 6 years, but it's taken 4 years for people to say that it was not the right solution. 16:10:36 dom: I was interested in looking at what happened and why it took so long to address this problem. Is there something that the W3C could have done better? It would be good to look into what happened. 16:10:42 dom: any feedback on this? 16:13:00 http://prollyfill.org/ 16:13:36 http://www.w3.org/community/nextweb/ 16:16:06 MC: the TAG is also looking at this problem 16:16:23 MC: and http://prollyfill.org/ is also looking at this 16:17:23 functional Web,in-context discovery, consistency and dependency, developer tools 16:17:51 dom: the remaining items that need volunteers are: functional Web,in-context discovery, consistency and dependency, developer tools 16:18:40 -dom 16:18:41 - +1.512.257.aadd 16:18:43 -Marcos 16:18:43 -Dan.Sun 16:18:44 MWI_(CLOSING)11:00AM has ended 16:18:44 Attendees were dom, jo, +1.650.265.aaaa, Scott_Jenson, +1.908.208.aabb, +1.908.208.aacc, Dan.Sun, Christine_Perey, Marcos, +1.512.257.aadd 16:18:49 Zakim, aadd was virginie 16:18:49 I don't understand 'aadd was virginie', dom 16:19:00 Present+ Virginie 16:19:07 RRSAgent, draft minutes 16:19:07 I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2013/04/30-closingthegap-minutes.html dom 16:19:46 i/ Jo: I feel /ScribeNick: dom 16:20:13 i/: dom: that's a/ScribeNick: jo 16:20:37 i/ dom: the next /ScribeNick: Marcos 16:20:47 RRSAgent, draft minutes 16:20:47 I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2013/04/30-closingthegap-minutes.html dom 16:21:22 i/ dom: that's a clear position/ScribeNick: jo 16:21:22 RRSAgent, draft minutes 16:21:22 I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2013/04/30-closingthegap-minutes.html dom 16:22:19 Zakim, bye 16:22:19 Zakim has left #closingthegap 16:22:21 RRSAgent, bye 16:22:21 I see 4 open action items saved in http://www.w3.org/2013/04/30-closingthegap-actions.rdf : 16:22:21 ACTION: Dom to create action plan for offline support [1] 16:22:21 recorded in http://www.w3.org/2013/04/30-closingthegap-irc#T15-45-28 16:22:21 ACTION: Marcos to define action plan for network optimizations [2] 16:22:21 recorded in http://www.w3.org/2013/04/30-closingthegap-irc#T15-53-41 16:22:21 ACTION: ScottJ to lead work on action plan for web apps UX [3] 16:22:21 recorded in http://www.w3.org/2013/04/30-closingthegap-irc#T16-01-52 16:22:21 ACTION: Virginie to lead work on action plan for Security of Web apps [4] 16:22:21 recorded in http://www.w3.org/2013/04/30-closingthegap-irc#T16-08-33