15:57:57 <RRSAgent> RRSAgent has joined #webapps
15:57:57 <RRSAgent> logging to http://www.w3.org/2013/04/26-webapps-irc
15:58:16 <ArtB> Meeting: Web Applications WG F2F Meeting
15:58:31 <ArtB> Agenda: http://www.w3.org/wiki/Webapps/April2013Meeting
15:58:36 <ArtB> Chairs: Art, Charles
15:58:38 <abraud> abraud has joined #webapps
15:58:42 <ArtB> Scribe: Josh_Soref
15:58:50 <ArtB> ScribeNick: timeless
15:59:59 <ArtB> Present: Art_Barstow, Charles_McCathieNevile, Josh_Soref, Robin_Berjon, Yves_Lafon, Ted_Oconnor, Laszlo_Gombos, Tyler_Barton, Adrian_Bateman, Glenn_Adams, Doug_Turner, Bryan_Sullivan
16:00:35 <bryan> bryan has joined #webapps
16:00:48 <Bin_Hu> Bin_Hu has joined #webapps
16:00:57 <Bin_Hu> present+ Bin_Hu
16:00:58 <ArtB> Present+ Bin_Hu
16:01:11 <ArtB> RRSAgent, make minutes
16:01:11 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2013/04/26-webapps-minutes.html ArtB
16:01:30 <ArtB> RRSAgent, make log Public
16:01:34 <ArtB> RRSAgent, make minutes
16:01:34 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2013/04/26-webapps-minutes.html ArtB
16:01:53 <abraud> Present+ Arnaud_Braud
16:02:53 <ArtB> Present+ Yosuke_Funahasi
16:03:08 <ArtB> Present+ Jae_Won_Chung
16:03:09 <aizu> aizu has joined #webapps
16:03:33 <ArtB> Present+ Hiroyuki_Aizu
16:04:14 <adrianba> Present+ adrianba
16:06:06 <ArtB> RRSAgent, make minutes
16:06:06 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2013/04/26-webapps-minutes.html ArtB
16:06:13 <ArtB> zakim, who's here?
16:06:13 <Zakim> sorry, ArtB, I don't know what conference this is
16:06:14 <Zakim> On IRC I see aizu, Bin_Hu, bryan, abraud, RRSAgent, darobin, adrianba, ArtB, tantek, Zakim, jeffh, hallvord_, smaug, tobie, davidb, Ms2ger, shepazu, krijnh, wseltzer, alecf,
16:06:14 <Zakim> ... Dashiva, EricU, jsbell, tlr, dglazkov, karl, logbot, timeless, gavin
16:06:42 <ArtB> zakim, bye
16:06:42 <Zakim> Zakim has left #webapps
16:06:48 <Zakim> Zakim has joined #webapps
16:07:09 <Yves> i
16:07:38 <Yves> trackbot, start telcon
16:07:40 <trackbot> RRSAgent, make logs public
16:07:42 <trackbot> Zakim, this will be DOM3
16:07:42 <Zakim> I do not see a conference matching that name scheduled within the next hour, trackbot
16:07:43 <trackbot> Meeting: Web Applications Working Group Teleconference
16:07:43 <trackbot> Date: 26 April 2013
16:08:03 <RRSAgent> I see no action items
16:08:07 <RRSAgent> RRSAgent has joined #webapps
16:08:07 <RRSAgent> logging to http://www.w3.org/2013/04/26-webapps-irc
16:08:18 <ArtB> zakim, this will be RWC_WAF
16:08:18 <Zakim> ok, ArtB, I see RWC_WAF(WAF2F)12:00PM already started
16:08:45 <Ms2ger> RRSAgent, code
16:08:45 <RRSAgent> I'm logging. I don't understand 'code', Ms2ger.  Try /msg RRSAgent help
16:08:48 <Ms2ger> Zakim, code
16:08:48 <Zakim> I don't understand 'code', Ms2ger
16:09:02 <chaals> chaals has joined #webapps
16:09:13 <ArtB> zakim, what's the code?
16:09:13 <Zakim> the conference code is 92323 (tel:+1.617.761.6200 sip:zakim@voip.w3.org), ArtB
16:09:27 <lyle> lyle has joined #webapps
16:09:31 <Ms2ger> Ta
16:09:37 <lyle> present+ Lyle_Troxell
16:09:52 <Zakim> +??P2
16:09:58 <Ms2ger> Zakim, ??P2 is me
16:09:58 <Zakim> +Ms2ger; got it
16:10:15 <eliot> eliot has joined #webapps
16:10:28 <eliot> present+ eliot_graff
16:10:37 <smaug> Zakim, who is on the call?
16:10:37 <Zakim> On the phone I see [IPcaller], Paypal, Ms2ger
16:10:49 <smaug> Zakim, [IPcaller] is Olli_Pettay
16:10:49 <Zakim> +Olli_Pettay; got it
16:10:59 <smaug> Zakim, nick smaug is Olli_Pettay
16:10:59 <Zakim> ok, smaug, I now associate you with Olli_Pettay
16:11:02 <efullea> efullea has joined #webapps
16:11:03 <Zakim> Not knowing who is chairing or who scribed recently, I propose Olli_Pettay
16:11:15 <lgombos> lgombos has joined #webapps
16:11:16 <darobin> Shenzhen
16:11:24 <yosuke> yosuke has joined #webapps
16:11:30 <lgombos> present+ Laszlo_Gombos
16:11:33 <krisk> krisk has joined #webapps
16:11:33 <ArtB> ACTION: barstow announce the WG will meet during TPAC 2013 in November
16:11:34 <trackbot> Created ACTION-692 - Announce the WG will meet during TPAC 2013 in November [on Arthur Barstow - due 2013-05-03].
16:11:34 <darobin> ScribeNick: darobin
16:11:45 <darobin> chaals: that was painless
16:12:08 <darobin> .... the chartering stuff
16:12:20 <yosuke> Present+ Yosuke_Funahashi
16:12:25 <darobin> ... what do we need to add or remove
16:12:29 <Zakim> +??P10
16:12:33 <bryan> present+ Bryan_Sullivan
16:12:39 <darobin> ... we have a spec called URL, we asked if people would work on it
16:12:44 <garykac> garykac has joined #webapps
16:12:47 <krisk> present+ krisk
16:12:51 <ArtB> -> http://www.w3.org/wiki/Webapps/Charter Inventory of Charter updates that need to be made or might be made
16:13:00 <Yves> Present+ Yves_Lafon
16:13:02 <darobin> ... Anne is not in WebApps, so can't edit
16:13:09 <darobin> ... no one in WebApps is editing it
16:13:12 <Jungkee> Jungkee has joined #webapps
16:13:18 <darobin> ... Anne is working on it outside W3C
16:13:24 <darobin> ... should we keep it in our charter
16:13:43 <Jungkee> Present+ Jungkee_Song
16:13:45 <efullea> present+ Eduardo_Fullea
16:14:03 <hallvord_> Hi Jungkee
16:14:55 <darobin> Robin: if we're just republishing, why not automate it?
16:14:56 <Zakim> -Ms2ger
16:15:10 <darobin> chaals: uh, we actually want a responsible editor
16:15:18 <JonathanJ> JonathanJ has joined #webapps
16:15:23 <bhill2_> bhill2_ has joined #webapps
16:15:27 <JonathanJ> Present+ Jonghong_Jeon
16:15:42 <Ms2ger> I note that chaals said "Anne puts his spec in the public domain, so you can just copy it"
16:15:54 <plh> plh has joined #webapps
16:15:57 <wonsuk> wonsuk has joined #webapps
16:16:02 <darobin> ???: how about we could just resolve the dispute over the licensing instead?
16:16:13 <darobin> chaals: we could, but that's outside the scope of this group
16:16:21 <darobin> ... if the AC get a consensus, then the problem goes away
16:16:24 <Travis> Travis has joined #webapps
16:16:38 <darobin> ... until that happens, we need to figure out what to do with that spec
16:16:50 <darobin> ... if no one is committing to it, seems pointless to have it in the charter
16:17:42 <Zakim> -??P10
16:17:46 <tobie> Zakim, code?
16:17:46 <Zakim> the conference code is 92323 (tel:+1.617.761.6200 sip:zakim@voip.w3.org), tobie
16:18:04 <darobin> robin: just pointing out that this is pretty fundamental
16:18:23 <darobin> bryan: is this really cut and paste?
16:18:26 <darobin> group: yeah
16:18:31 <darobin> bryan: so why not just do it?
16:18:45 <darobin> chaals: because no one volunteers
16:18:55 <Zakim> + +34.91.432.aaaa
16:19:13 <darobin> ???: the problem is the license, so we should transition to an open license
16:19:30 <darobin> ArtB: do we want to start a CfC to drop URL?
16:19:48 <ArtB> s/???/DougT/
16:19:56 <darobin> chaals: alternative proposal...
16:20:10 <darobin> robin: the group could go on strike until there's a new license
16:20:20 <darobin> chaals: I can take over URL if the group appoints me to it
16:20:32 <ArtB> ACTION: charles to be the default Editor of URL spec
16:20:32 <trackbot> Created ACTION-693 - Be the default Editor of URL spec [on Charles McCathie Nevile - due 2013-05-03].
16:20:52 <tobie> zakim, agenda?
16:20:52 <Zakim> I see nothing on the agenda
16:21:05 <darobin> chaals: some work is scoped but not listed explicitly, e.g. Streams
16:21:16 <smaug> tobie: http://www.w3.org/wiki/Webapps/April2013Meeting
16:21:41 <ArtB> -> http://www.w3.org/wiki/Webapps/Charter pending Charter updates
16:21:42 <darobin> chaals: I plan to draft a new charter, and list deliverables more precisely
16:21:55 <adrianba> q+
16:21:58 <darobin> ... expect to see a proposal
16:22:08 <ArtB> ACTION: charles prepare a Draft charter update for the WG to review
16:22:09 <trackbot> Created ACTION-694 - Prepare a Draft charter update for the WG to review [on Charles McCathie Nevile - due 2013-05-03].
16:22:11 <darobin> ... and get the AC to support it
16:22:26 <darobin> ack adrianba
16:22:37 <darobin> adrianba: are we planning to add application manifest?
16:22:48 <darobin> chaals: we are planning to keep it
16:22:53 <JonathanJ> JonathanJ has joined #webapps
16:23:07 <hallvord_> the strike idea was interesting ;-)
16:23:43 <Ms2ger> And the editors that edit the majority of webapps specs have already stopped working through W3C
16:24:03 <darobin> adrianba: I think it's different from a packaging proposal
16:24:18 <darobin> chaals: if you look through that document, it has all of it, and we're taking a subset
16:24:44 <darobin> ArtB: but we can be more explicit
16:24:58 <darobin> chaals: the DOM can go there as "we'll do something"
16:25:15 <hallvord_> web spec proletariat's unacceptable working conditions? #firstworldproblems - sort of
16:25:37 <darobin> chaals: push Push out of the charter
16:25:45 <hallvord_> (to be clear, I think the licencing stuff SHOULD be resolved and expect it to happen eventually)
16:26:00 <darobin> chaals: I believe support has increased
16:26:01 <bryan> q+
16:26:18 <darobin> ... notably Mozilla who weren't interested are now working on it
16:26:26 <darobin> [scribe notes "for a change"]
16:26:47 <darobin> bryan: in the geological time scale of webapps, this was brought here seconds ago
16:27:03 <wonsuk> wonsuk has joined #webapps
16:27:26 <ArtB> Present+ Mike_Smith, Arun_Ranganathan
16:27:33 <wonsuk> Present+ Wonsuk_Lee
16:27:34 <ArtB> RRSAgent, make minutes
16:27:34 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2013/04/26-webapps-minutes.html ArtB
16:27:46 <darobin> bryan: SysApps may be a place to develop it, but I woudl hesitate to move something out just because there's controversy
16:27:54 <darobin> chaals: no
16:28:02 <darobin> ... there has been suggestion to push it out
16:28:06 <darobin> ... there has been a PAG
16:28:18 <darobin> s/... there has been a PAG//
16:28:32 <darobin> ... there has been a PAG
16:28:45 <jsbell_> jsbell_ has joined #webapps
16:28:49 <ArtB> -> http://www.w3.org/2004/01/pp-impl/42538/status#current-disclosures exclusions for Push API
16:29:06 <darobin> chaals: Yandex supports keeping push in
16:29:22 <darobin> ... any other opinion? Bryan wants it in
16:29:31 <darobin> eduardo: yes, we want it in
16:29:43 <Zakim> +[IPcaller]
16:29:45 <abraud> q+
16:29:47 <darobin> Doug: it needs to be in this WG
16:29:52 <bryan> q-
16:29:55 <timeless> s/Doug/dougt/
16:29:55 <darobin> s/???/Doug/g
16:30:13 <sicking> sicking has joined #webapps
16:30:24 <timeless> s/Doug:/dougt:/
16:30:27 <timeless> RRSAgent, draft minutes
16:30:27 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2013/04/26-webapps-minutes.html timeless
16:30:28 <darobin> chaals: I don't see it as value to move the PAG around
16:30:29 <MikeSmith> q?
16:30:33 <abraud> ack abraud
16:30:35 <darobin> arnaud: I also support keeping it in
16:30:45 <MikeSmith> Present+ MikeSmith!
16:30:50 <timeless> s/DougT:/dougt:/
16:30:53 <darobin> chaals: the whole point of a PAG is you don't have to stop the work
16:31:12 <hober> present+ hober
16:31:23 <darobin> dougt: I think we need to get a lawyer to go through this, we can provide prior art
16:31:42 <darobin> chaals: yes, the PAG does that, we continue on the tech work
16:31:54 <darobin> [scribe made it to w3cmemes http://w3cmemes.tumblr.com/image/48935613505]
16:32:11 <darobin> chaals: eduardo, do you want to do push api tech stuff now?
16:32:23 <MikeSmith> q+ to ask about NavigationController and charter
16:32:29 <MikeSmith> q?
16:33:19 <darobin> eduardo: the goal of this spec is to provide an API for apps to register for push notifications
16:33:44 <darobin> ... you can see the API to register, the UA sets up a push notification channel
16:33:47 <ArtB> -> https://dvcs.w3.org/hg/push/raw-file/default/index.html Push API ED
16:34:01 <dougt> dougt has joined #webapps
16:34:02 <Zakim> +??P7
16:34:05 <darobin> ... the server can then deliver push notifications
16:34:15 <Ms2ger> Zakim, ??P7 is me
16:34:15 <Zakim> +Ms2ger; got it
16:34:20 <darobin> ... details of the API
16:34:24 <darobin> ... the push manager interface
16:34:30 <darobin> ... exposed on Navigattor
16:34:35 <darobin> ... a method to register
16:34:57 <darobin> ... registration is now simpler, no params
16:35:04 <darobin> ... returns a DOMRequest
16:35:26 <darobin> ... unregister() from specific endpoint
16:35:54 <darobin> ... list registrations
16:36:21 <darobin> ... Push endpoint is a URL where the app server can send notifications to be delivered to the application
16:36:48 <darobin> ... list of server protocols that can be used to send notifications to the push server
16:37:06 <darobin> ... discover which are supported
16:37:32 <arun> arun has joined #webapps
16:37:39 <darobin> ... message interface, represents a system message
16:37:48 <darobin> ... used to inform the application when a notification is received
16:38:17 <MikeSmith> hah
16:38:20 <darobin> ... this interface has two attributes
16:38:32 <timeless> s/hah//
16:38:34 <MikeSmith> the noise from that speaker is really annoying me
16:38:40 <darobin> ... allows app to map to specific push registration
16:38:43 <timeless> s/the noise from that speaker is really annoying me//
16:39:07 <darobin> ... the version marks the latest version of the content that is available
16:39:19 <MikeSmith> so unless you guys prefer that is gets to the point where I get up and smash that speaker to shit with a baseball bat, you should be happy I'm listening to my music instead
16:39:30 <darobin> ... the application needs to fetch from the corresponding application sever
16:39:33 <timeless> s/so unless you guys prefer that is gets to the point where I get up and smash that speaker to shit with a baseball bat, you should be happy I'm listening to my music instead//
16:39:39 <darobin> ... the PushRegisterMessage interface
16:39:46 <darobin> ... represents additional system message
16:40:02 <darobin> ... signals application that the notificaiton is now invalid and it needs to re-register
16:40:08 <darobin> .... last section
16:40:28 <darobin> ... system messages, describes the names of the system messages and the interfaces to use for them
16:40:38 <darobin> ... steps that must be followed when a notificaiton is received
16:41:15 <darobin> ... clarifications?
16:41:34 <jeffh> jeffh has joined #webapps
16:41:46 <chaals> q+
16:41:53 <chaals> ack mi
16:41:53 <Zakim> MikeSmith, you wanted to ask about NavigationController and charter
16:41:55 <MikeSmith> chaals, the point I wanted to make is that the scope of NavigationController is significantly larger than just appcache, so I don't think we can just assume/declare that NavigationController is in scope. Because I think it's not, as far as the current charter and the move-over-from-HTML clause.
16:42:13 <darobin> eduardo: this is part of FirefoxOS, developed by Mozilla and Telefonica
16:42:19 <darobin> chaals: it seems clear to me
16:42:31 <darobin> dougt: I have two or three things about this
16:42:36 <TylerB> TylerB has joined #webapps
16:42:42 <darobin> ... for our phone, we use system messages and manifests and all
16:43:02 <darobin> ... there's internal debate about how we deliver a message to an application that's not active, the window is gone
16:43:10 <darobin> ... I don't think we have general agreement on that
16:43:19 <darobin> ... system messages or manifest might work
16:43:33 <darobin> ... but I'm not sure that that's the best for the web (some will disagree)
16:43:42 <darobin> ... so we're looking for a solution
16:43:51 <darobin> ... one option is a Function Future, similar to a future
16:44:12 <darobin> ... but the JS engine stores is, and you can ask that to give you back a function later that you can execute
16:44:32 <darobin> ... but the problem is, when a webapp is no longer running, how do you deliver a message to it?
16:44:41 <timeless> s/a future/a DOMFuture/
16:44:49 <darobin> ... this spec is tighttly coupled to system messages, which may or may not be the way to do it
16:44:56 <darobin> s/a DOMFuture/a future/
16:45:34 <darobin> ... we keep things simple, there's no need to sync data
16:45:42 <abarth> abarth has joined #webapps
16:45:42 <darobin> ... we didn't just want to use the notification tray
16:45:57 <darobin> ... we want to build an API that enabled more than that, including sync services
16:46:16 <darobin> ... the app might do a bunch of things before putting up a notification (or not)
16:46:26 <darobin> ... it's very simple and basic so that people can build on top of it
16:46:42 <darobin> ... no data, low level signalling service
16:46:49 <tobie> tobie has joined #webapps
16:46:54 <darobin> ... the protocol based on something called Tolofi (?)
16:46:59 <darobin> ... has a bunch of pros
16:47:04 <darobin> ... if the push server goes away
16:47:24 <darobin> ... you can bring it back up with no data, and the protocol will self repair
16:47:40 <bryan> q+
16:47:48 <efullea> s/Tolofi (?)/Thialfi/
16:47:57 <darobin> ... if you try to do the same, you'll probably come to the same conclusion
16:48:13 <chaals> q-
16:48:16 <lyle> http://research.google.com/pubs/pub37474.html
16:48:23 <darobin> sicking: the whole problem to sending messages to something that may not be running is something we're facing in the Notification API as well
16:48:39 <darobin> ... if the message is clicked and the app has gone away, we don't know what to do
16:48:50 <darobin> ... I think we can solve this without relying on manifest
16:49:06 <darobin> [scribe hints that Intents/Activities are a solution avenue here]
16:49:12 <darobin> bryan: just a few comments
16:49:23 <darobin> ... simplification to deliver only signal, I understand the intent
16:49:34 <darobin> ... that's fine, better than nothing
16:49:42 <tantek> tantek has joined #webapps
16:49:49 <darobin> ... we do have more than ten years of experience in delivering actual payloads to apps
16:50:05 <darobin> ... and we've enabled lots of infrastructure that you enjoy everyday
16:50:15 <darobin> ... so it is safe and we've been doing it for many years
16:50:29 <darobin> ... but I agree that if you signal the app and let it decide, it's secure
16:50:46 <darobin> ... and in fact it is the number one approach we've been using all these years
16:50:51 <darobin> ... so we're good with that
16:51:15 <darobin> ... comments might be resolved?
16:51:31 <darobin> ... push server design considerations (eg robustness, scalability)
16:51:39 <darobin> ... do we need some content in the spec? we could provide something
16:51:41 <chaals> q+
16:51:50 <darobin> ... second thing had to do with security considerations
16:51:57 <darobin> ... probably addressed by removing the payload
16:51:59 <darobin> ack bryan
16:52:05 <darobin> ack chaals
16:52:22 <darobin> chaals: yes, design considerations are useful to put in spec so that people udnersntad what you're doing
16:52:33 <chaals> ack me
16:52:43 <darobin> sicking: first question was about privacy being solved by not having messages
16:52:49 <darobin> ... it certainly helps a lot
16:53:06 <darobin> ... I don't have a lot of experience as for the server considerations
16:53:26 <darobin> ... the concerns we had about scalability with the previous proposal is something we attempted to address
16:53:36 <darobin> ... by allowing the server to drop information and autorepair
16:53:48 <darobin> ... I'm not good enough at server development to say that this aspect is solved
16:53:56 <darobin> ... but we feel a lot more comfortable with this
16:54:09 <darobin> bryan: eliminating the payload certainly solves a lot of scability and sync issues
16:54:09 <chaals> q+ doug
16:54:28 <darobin> ... to issues a request and get something you need, but it's still unclear what the actual process is
16:54:42 <darobin> ... do we want to include example of how it works out on the wire?
16:54:47 <sicking> q+
16:54:48 <chaals> ack do
16:54:49 <darobin> dougt: we actually need to do that
16:54:51 <darobin> ack dougt
16:55:17 <darobin> ... there's this idea that the UA will hand a URL to the app that'll send it to the server
16:55:24 <Marcos> Marcos has joined #webapps
16:55:31 <darobin> ... so the app server now has a URL that it uses to contact the push server
16:55:43 <darobin> ... so when the push happens we need to define the protocal
16:55:58 <darobin> ... we want a default protocol that all can use
16:56:12 <darobin> ... so the app server needs a well known way to talk to the push server
16:56:23 <darobin> ... I want to spec out the wire protocol, and that will be the normative way
16:56:40 <darobin> ... if we don't do that, there will be plenty of different protocols
16:56:49 <efullea> q+
16:56:52 <darobin> ... and we'll need complex code to handle multiple protocols
16:57:08 <darobin> ... so we want a default, and people can use other stuff so long as they support that
16:57:20 <darobin> bryan: many legs to such systems
16:57:46 <darobin> ... leg to leg interop standards, there's app server to push server, but also push server to push client
16:57:59 <darobin> ... do we want only the first leg to lef?
16:58:09 <darobin> dougt: I don't think we need the latter leg
16:59:09 <darobin> Topic: testing
16:59:14 <Zakim> -[IPcaller]
16:59:20 <ArtB> zakim, who's here?
16:59:20 <Zakim> On the phone I see Olli_Pettay, Paypal, +34.91.432.aaaa, Ms2ger
16:59:21 <Zakim> On IRC I see Marcos, tantek, tobie, abarth, TylerB, jeffh, arun, dougt, sicking, jsbell_, wonsuk, JonathanJ, plh, bhill2_, Jungkee, garykac, krisk, yosuke, lgombos, efullea, eliot,
16:59:21 <Zakim> ... lyle, chaals, RRSAgent, Zakim, aizu, Bin_Hu, bryan, abraud, darobin
17:00:33 <virginie_> virginie_ has joined #webapps
17:01:44 <Zakim> - +34.91.432.aaaa
17:02:33 <sicking> q-
17:03:09 <danielfilho|w> danielfilho|w has joined #webapps
17:03:11 <Ms2ger> Zakim, ack efullea
17:03:11 <Zakim> I see no one on the speaker queue
17:03:59 <danielfi_> danielfi_ has joined #webapps
17:04:37 <Ms2ger> q+ to suggest moving all the documentation spread over a dozen W3C wikis into the repo instead
17:05:19 <jgraham> Is there any disagreement that's a good idea?
17:05:59 <Zakim> +LiamM
17:06:37 <tobie> Zakim, code
17:06:38 <Zakim> I don't understand 'code', tobie
17:06:42 <Ms2ger> Zakim, code?
17:06:42 <Zakim> the conference code is 92323 (tel:+1.617.761.6200 sip:zakim@voip.w3.org), Ms2ger
17:06:53 <Zakim> -LiamM
17:07:02 <Ms2ger> jgraham, there's a pointer to some webapps wiki on the agenda
17:07:21 <krisk> http://www.w3.org/wiki/Webapps/April2013Meeting
17:07:29 <Zakim> +LiamM
17:07:46 <ArtB> zakim, who's on the phone?
17:07:46 <Zakim> On the phone I see Olli_Pettay, Paypal, Ms2ger, LiamM
17:08:00 <jgraham> Yes, so there is
17:08:18 <jgraham> We should kill the wikis entirely and put the site in git, like everything else
17:08:54 <timeless> topic: Move to Github
17:09:02 <timeless> scribe: Josh_Soref
17:09:05 <timeless> scribenick: timeless
17:09:22 <timeless> Zakim, who is on the call?
17:09:22 <Zakim> On the phone I see Olli_Pettay, Paypal, Ms2ger, LiamM
17:09:27 <Ms2ger> Zakim, LiamM is tobie
17:09:27 <Zakim> +tobie; got it
17:09:40 <timeless> [ ArtB introduces the room to tobie ]
17:10:07 <timeless> [ Microsoft, Google, Apple, Toshiba, Samsung ]
17:10:32 <timeless> ArtB: tobie is a visiting fellow at W3C, sponsored by Facebook
17:10:47 <timeless> ... a month ago, we started moving our tests from Mercurial to GitHub
17:10:54 <timeless> ... html has done that, and other groups are doing it as well
17:11:12 <timeless> ... i'm interested in getting an update on where we are
17:11:17 <timeless> tobie: hello everyone
17:11:21 <timeless> ... thanks for making time for testing
17:11:23 <timeless> ... 3 things
17:11:27 <timeless> ... to talk about
17:11:37 <timeless> ... one is on the actual move to github of webapps test suite
17:11:48 <timeless> ... i wasn't directly involved, but afaik, everything has moved to github and is doing fine
17:11:53 <timeless> ... maybe Ms2ger has more input
17:11:56 <timeless> ... or darobin
17:12:02 <timeless> ... the other part of interest
17:12:08 <timeless> ... we have this very big testing effort
17:12:16 <timeless> ... we started planning and budgetting
17:12:22 <timeless> ... but we're waiting for funding to start
17:12:38 <timeless> ... that effort consists of building a good infrastructure to do testing at w3c
17:12:47 <timeless> ... and also to handle the backlog of testing
17:12:56 <timeless> ... and also to do a better job of keeping up to date in testing
17:13:08 <timeless> ... making testing, things to help build interoperable implementations
17:13:14 <timeless> ... rather than just moving specs along REC track
17:13:21 <timeless> ... do more testing that currently
17:13:27 <timeless> ... don't know if you have specific questions
17:13:33 <tantek> tantek has joined #webapps
17:13:33 <Ms2ger> Fully support the comment about REC track
17:13:42 <timeless> ... on planned infrastrucutre
17:13:47 <timeless> s/utr/tur/
17:13:53 <timeless> ... good to have questions
17:13:59 <timeless> ArtB: anyone have questions for tobie ?
17:14:03 <timeless> [ Silence ]
17:14:12 <timeless> ArtB: odinho had put together a document describing the overall workflow
17:14:23 <tobie> q+ about doc
17:14:23 <timeless> ... that probably needs to be fleshed out w/ webapps specific information
17:14:47 <timeless> ... Rebecca from TestTheWebForward has put together a document on how contributors can help
17:15:01 <yosuke> yosuke has joined #webapps
17:15:01 <timeless> ... --
17:15:11 <timeless> ... a thing that wasn't clear to me was how we handle reviews
17:15:17 <jgraham> I hope there isn't "WebApps-specific" information; it should be the same for all web-platform WGs
17:15:18 <timeless> ... we're organized a bit differently than the html wg
17:15:24 <timeless> ... we have test facilitators
17:15:33 <timeless> ... krisk is the manager of the html wg test suite
17:15:43 <timeless> ... but we have 10 or 12 volunteers for specific test suites
17:15:49 <timeless> ... a thing we're potentially missing here
17:16:06 <timeless> .... how does a group of people who care about testing get notified when a submission gets made
17:16:12 <timeless> ... if i'm implementing WebSocket
17:16:29 <timeless> ... maybe i want a notification if a pull request on WebSocket gets made
17:16:36 <Marcos> Zakim: passcode?
17:16:37 <timeless> ... or maybe i want a notification for all test suites
17:16:43 <Marcos> Zakim, passcode?
17:16:43 <Zakim> the conference code is 92323 (tel:+1.617.761.6200 sip:zakim@voip.w3.org), Marcos
17:16:52 <timeless> ... can someone explain how this happens/can be managed?
17:16:54 <Ms2ger> You can list yourself as a reviewer for specific dirs in critic, and then you'll get email about PRs for those dirs
17:17:17 <Zakim> +[IPcaller]
17:17:19 <timeless> tobie: jgraham notes the system he's promoting solves this problem
17:17:27 <timeless> ... we don't have that capability with github today
17:17:28 <jgraham> GitHub doesn't have any way to handle this as far as I know
17:17:31 <Ms2ger> He isn't
17:17:37 <timeless> s/He isn't//
17:17:45 <timeless> ArtB: jgraham are you on the call?
17:17:49 <timeless> tobie: he isn't
17:18:13 <timeless> tobie: whether or not we have the right tool for the job
17:18:17 <timeless> ... during transition
17:18:20 <jgraham> We either need to roll our own, or use something pre-existing. We have critic set up and it solves this as well as several other problems. I sent an email to public-webapps the other day
17:18:25 <timeless> ... you might be best listening to everything
17:18:28 <timeless> ... and use personal rules
17:18:38 <timeless> ... maybe jgraham can set rules using Critic
17:18:42 <darobin> q?
17:19:04 <Ms2ger> http://critic.hoppipolla.co.uk/
17:19:06 <timeless> ArtB: we recorded 7 or 8 actions for darobin, who just re-entered the room
17:19:16 <timeless> chaals: Critic is a tool Opera developed for code review
17:19:30 <jgraham> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-webapps/2013AprJun/0364.html
17:19:35 <timeless> ArtB: what's html wg going to do?
17:19:42 <Ms2ger> Does the HTMLWG do reviews?
17:19:54 <timeless> ... i'd rather use something that's well tested
17:20:01 <timeless> darobin: we don't have hard and fast rules
17:20:09 <timeless> ... reviewing are done w/ whatever the reviewer is comfortable
17:20:20 <timeless> ArtB: is the github review process a PITA?
17:20:25 <timeless> darobin: i find it ok
17:20:33 <timeless> ... in general, if the review is simple, they do it in github
17:20:41 <timeless> ... for more advanced reviewing, they use critic
17:20:46 <timeless> ... both are available
17:20:57 <timeless> ... you can use one or the other on a per-pull-request basis
17:21:16 <timeless> ArtB: do we give whomever submits the request?
17:21:25 <timeless> darobin: i'm letting the reviewer pick what they're most comfortable w/
17:21:37 <Ms2ger> Given the general lack of reviewers, I'd support letting the reviewer pick
17:21:44 <timeless> ... if we hit issues w/ the tool affecting the submitter, we can cross that bridge then
17:21:47 <krisk> here is an example of a pull request using github https://github.com/w3c/web-platform-tests/pull/77
17:21:49 <timeless> ... we're seeing more reviews now
17:22:00 <timeless> ... probably still things to iron out
17:22:03 <timeless> ... but it's improving
17:22:09 <timeless> ArtB: i agree, it's better now
17:22:09 <JonathanJ> rrsagent, draft minutes
17:22:09 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2013/04/26-webapps-minutes.html JonathanJ
17:22:14 <hallvord_> I note that Critic is well tested inside Opera :)
17:22:14 <timeless> ... excellent progress
17:22:40 <timeless> ... i'll look at what odinho wrote
17:22:47 <jgraham> I think common sense works. If you know that the contributor is new it is better to pick GitHub unless there is an overwhelming reason not to. For frequent contributers and difficult reviews it just isn't good enough
17:23:21 <chaals> q+
17:23:21 <jgraham> (yeah we have used it for tens of thousands of reviews inside Opera)
17:23:22 <timeless> ... does anyone object to this model?
17:23:28 <timeless> tobie: i like what jgraham is saying on irc
17:23:33 <timeless> ... let the reviewers figure it out
17:24:03 <timeless> chaals: we have critic running inside Yandex, it seems reasonable
17:24:05 <timeless> ack Ms2ger
17:24:05 <Zakim> Ms2ger, you wanted to suggest moving all the documentation spread over a dozen W3C wikis into the repo instead
17:24:10 <Ms2ger> That ^
17:24:27 <timeless> chaals: thanks for volunteering to do that
17:24:29 <Ms2ger> Alright, alright
17:24:39 <timeless> tobie: that's a plan
17:24:43 <timeless> ... there has been
17:24:56 <timeless> ... one person contributed a lot of documentation to the html test efforts
17:25:02 <timeless> ... i'm in the process of ...
17:25:03 <ArtB> ACTION: barstow work with Tobie, Robin, Ms2ger, Odin, etc. to make sure WebApps' testing workflow is well documented and kept on GitHub
17:25:04 <trackbot> Created ACTION-695 - Work with Tobie, Robin, Ms2ger, Odin, etc. to make sure WebApps' testing workflow is well documented and kept on GitHub [on Arthur Barstow - due 2013-05-03].
17:25:04 <timeless> ... XXX
17:25:12 <timeless> ... and there are wikis pointing all over the place
17:25:21 <timeless> ... i'm going to have them redirect to that canonical documentation
17:25:27 <chaals> s/XXX/collecting up the documetation/
17:25:39 <timeless> ArtB: sounds good to me
17:25:42 <Ms2ger> s/documetation/documentation/
17:25:53 <timeless> ... goal is to have as much generic documentation as we can
17:26:02 <timeless> ... and only have one offs if we absolutely need them
17:26:08 <timeless> ... krisk, darobin and I ...
17:26:14 <chaals> s/up the documentation/up the documentation and putting it into one place/
17:26:15 <timeless> ... talked about within webapps's test suite
17:26:22 <timeless> ... i don't think we've done CR branching
17:26:32 <timeless> ... we've had some suites used to exit CR
17:26:36 <krisk> q+
17:26:36 <timeless> ... we should probably branch
17:26:43 <timeless> ... Web Storage, and Selectors API v1
17:26:45 <timeless> darobin: yes
17:26:46 <tobie> q+ about doc
17:26:54 <timeless> ArtB: will the test facilitator do that work?
17:26:58 <timeless> darobin: it's a single commandline
17:27:10 <tobie> http://www.w3.org/wiki/Testing/Resource_Center_TF/Documentation
17:27:12 <Ms2ger> I hope by "branching" we mean "subsetting"
17:27:15 <chaals> q-
17:27:17 <ArtB> ACTION: create CR branch for Web Storage and Selectors API v1 test suites
17:27:17 <trackbot> Error finding 'create'. You can review and register nicknames at <http://www.w3.org/2008/webapps/track/users>.
17:27:20 <timeless> ack tobie
17:27:20 <Zakim> tobie, you wanted to talk about doc
17:27:25 <darobin> [ Ms2ger: yes]
17:27:27 <tobie> http://www.w3.org/wiki/Testing/Resource_Center_TF/Existing_Documentation
17:27:33 <chaals> q- about doc
17:27:41 <timeless> tobie: i dumped two links
17:27:46 <timeless> ... one is documentation of testing efforts
17:27:53 <timeless> ... and one is a list of scattered documents
17:28:03 <timeless> ... if you know of other pages, please add links to the second wiki
17:28:09 <timeless> ack k
17:28:19 <timeless> krisk: i want to discuss about which things end up in CR branch
17:28:27 <timeless> s/which/when/
17:28:39 <timeless> ... we put things into CR branch and expect them to run test
17:28:44 <tantek_> tantek_ has joined #webapps
17:28:45 <timeless> ... in the past, we used approved folder
17:28:51 <timeless> ArtB: also WebSockets
17:29:05 <timeless> ... you think we should create the branch before interop testing begins?
17:29:07 <timeless> krisk: sure
17:29:16 <tobie> q+ on CR branch
17:29:18 <ArtB> ACTION: kris create the CR branch for Web Messaging and Web Sockets test suites
17:29:19 <trackbot> Created ACTION-696 - Create the CR branch for Web Messaging and Web Sockets test suites [on Kris Krueger - due 2013-05-03].
17:29:36 <timeless> ack tobie
17:29:36 <Zakim> tobie, you wanted to comment on CR branch
17:29:52 <timeless> tobie: it'd be good if the plan for this was documented somewhere
17:29:55 <krisk> q+
17:30:01 <timeless> ... i'd like to see it documented, also for my own personal reading
17:30:02 <timeless> ack krisk
17:30:28 <timeless> krisk: the CR branch is an indication that the specification is more mature
17:30:32 <timeless> ... and the tests should be more mature
17:30:39 <timeless> ... that's the spirit of CR v. Master
17:30:46 <timeless> tobie: how do these things go forward?
17:30:51 <timeless> ... do all tests end up in master?
17:30:56 <jgraham> I don't think the tests should be more mature really
17:30:58 <timeless> ... do all tests in CR end up in master?
17:31:06 <timeless> darobin: the plan is "basically simple"
17:31:13 <timeless> ... we created "master" and "CR" initially
17:31:21 <timeless> ... primarily for specs w/ concurrent versions under developed
17:31:27 <timeless> ... initially for HTML5.0 and HTML5.1
17:31:34 <timeless> ... all news tests go into master
17:31:49 <timeless> ... when you want to flag the fact that you're stabilizing a subset of the tests for stable
17:31:53 <timeless> ... you merge that subset to CR
17:32:06 <timeless> ... if a group wants to merge at LC instead of CR, they can do that
17:32:09 <timeless> ... it's the stable branch
17:32:23 <timeless> darobin: we spent 3 weeks bikeshedding the name
17:32:38 <Ms2ger> s/we spent/No no no no no no, we spent/
17:33:17 <timeless> tobie: provided we get funding
17:33:23 <timeless> ... i think we'll try to make a shiny presentation
17:33:28 <timeless> ... and backed by proper tests
17:33:39 <Ms2ger> jgraham, can you elaborate?
17:33:41 <timeless> chaals: asking jgraham about tests being more mature
17:34:16 <timeless> chaals: jgraham, what does " I don't think the tests should be more mature really" mean?
17:34:32 <timeless> ArtB: i think we're about done on this topic
17:34:40 <Ms2ger> Boo
17:34:50 <timeless> topic: Chartering part 2
17:35:00 <jgraham> I mean that as far as possible the tests on CR should just be the same as those on master, but perhaps not covering new features
17:35:02 <Zakim> -tobie
17:35:15 <timeless> s/topic: Chartering part 2//
17:35:17 <timeless> topic: Chartering part 2
17:35:21 <jgraham> Also, I expect the bugs in tests on master to be worked out much faster
17:35:22 <timeless> tobie: have fun with that
17:35:27 <timeless> chaals: MikeSmith pointed out
17:35:34 <timeless> ... AppCache, AppCache v2, fixing that
17:35:40 <jgraham> Once we get people importing and running tests
17:35:46 <timeless> ... there's a Navigation Controller idea floating around
17:35:49 <jgraham> Which isn't really happeneing yet, and is a big problem
17:36:07 <timeless> ... Google hasn't provided their proposal, which they promised 6 months ago
17:36:16 <timeless> ... if they submit it, or someone forks it
17:36:29 <timeless> ... and submits it
17:36:48 <timeless> s/topic: Chartering part 2//
17:37:01 <timeless> MikeSmith: i want to point out the thing in the charter w/ the escape clause
17:37:07 <timeless> ... is to move something from the HTML WG
17:37:12 <timeless> ... but Nav Controller isn't AppCache
17:37:15 <timeless> ... it's a superset
17:37:22 <Zakim> -Ms2ger
17:37:33 <timeless> ... i don't want us to take it on, do the work, and someone by proxy says "this isn't in scope of your charter"
17:37:43 <timeless> ... "... it isn't the same as AppCache"
17:38:12 <timeless> s/out much faster/out much faster. Once we get people importing and running tests. Which isn't really happeneing yet, and is a big problem./
17:38:14 <timeless> s/Which isn't really happeneing yet, and is a big problem//
17:38:18 <timeless> s/Once we get people importing and running tests//
17:38:36 <timeless> chaals: we don't want to take AppCache straight from html
17:39:14 <timeless> ... among the things in Fixing AppCache --- Nav Controller will be a proposed deliverable
17:40:13 <timeless> topic: Progress Events
17:40:28 <timeless> Jungkee: Jungkee from Samsung
17:40:32 <Jungkee> http://www.slideshare.net/jungkees/progress-events-web-apps-f2f-at-san-jose
17:40:36 <timeless> ... i made slides for this
17:40:48 <ArtB> -> http://dev.w3.org/2006/webapi/progress/Progress.html ProgressEvent ED
17:41:18 <timeless> Jungkee: about status of Progress spec
17:41:21 <timeless> ... it's in CR
17:41:29 <timeless> ... for a while, XHR was the only consumer
17:41:33 <timeless> ... but we have 2 other consumers
17:41:38 <timeless> ... <img> in HTML5.1
17:41:45 <timeless> ... and Messaging API in SysApps WG
17:42:04 <timeless> ... we've taken Ms2ger 's submissions from the mercurial repo
17:42:16 <timeless> ... we've made approved test files w/ test assertions
17:42:34 <timeless> ... i made one ED change, from octet to byte
17:42:39 <Zakim> +??P3
17:42:39 <timeless> ... octet was a network term
17:42:45 <Ms2ger> Zakim, ??P3 is me
17:42:45 <Zakim> +Ms2ger; got it
17:42:54 <timeless> ... byte is what's used in XHR
17:43:05 <timeless> ... so this allowed for alignment with that
17:43:17 <timeless> ... Plan: Meet CR exit criteria
17:43:27 <timeless> ... patches in Gecko, WebKit and Blink are in progress
17:43:32 <timeless> ... and recently some have landed
17:43:50 <timeless> ... there are two test files
17:44:02 <timeless> ... Constructor.html and Interface.html
17:44:12 <Ms2ger> s/Interface.html/interfaces.html/
17:44:23 <JonathanJ> http://www.w3.org/wiki/Webapps/Interop/ProgressEvents
17:44:41 <Ms2ger> https://wiki.mozilla.org/RapidRelease/Calendar
17:44:53 <timeless> Jungkee: the bugs should be fixed in Firefox 22
17:45:20 <timeless> ... can we use unstable releases?
17:45:27 <Ms2ger> s/interfaces.html/interface.html/
17:45:35 <timeless> ArtB: for Web Storage, we used Firefox Nightlies
17:46:11 <timeless> Ms2ger: my colleague landed patches to WebKit and Blink for Progress interface items 1 and 6
17:46:23 <timeless> s/Ms2ger/Jungkee
17:46:42 <timeless> ... Ms2ger left a comment that the outstanding bug in Mozilla is depending on bug 776864
17:46:47 <timeless> ... there's no progress on that
17:47:13 <timeless> ... once that's fixed, we can meet CR exit criteria
17:47:15 <timeless> ArtB: thanks
17:47:37 <timeless> smaug: WebIDL events for Progress bindings will land some time next week
17:47:48 <timeless> ... and then all events will have WebIDL bindings
17:47:57 <timeless> ArtB: at one point, WebKit was 100% the same as Blink
17:48:03 <timeless> ... every day, that equality becomes less
17:48:06 <smaug> one
17:48:08 <timeless> ... are they one or two implementations?
17:48:27 <timeless> chaals: seems to me it depends on what the stuff is
17:48:33 <timeless> ... look at it on a task basis
17:48:44 <timeless> ... webkit and blink are the same on a bunch of stuff
17:48:50 <timeless> ... and different on a bunch of stuff
17:48:58 <timeless> ... if they show plans to diverge, then they're different
17:49:12 <timeless> ... two implementations rule isn't some plan from heaven
17:49:17 <timeless> ... and different people who pick up this spe
17:49:20 <timeless> s/spe/spec/
17:49:25 <timeless> ... will understand it in the same way
17:49:29 <timeless> ... for now, this is the same thing
17:49:41 <timeless> ... different js engines, running around on webkit based browsers
17:49:44 <timeless> ... they're independent
17:49:53 <timeless> ... if someone writes the patch, and submits it to webkit and blink
17:50:04 <timeless> ... this isn't two implementations
17:50:14 <timeless> ... it'd be the same as if one person implemented it for webkit and gecko
17:50:27 <timeless> ... what do you say?
17:50:38 <timeless> ... this isn't a filling the boxes
17:50:53 <timeless> ... in this case, we'll probably treat them the same
17:51:11 <smaug> brb
17:51:29 <timeless> Josh_Soref: We have past history
17:51:39 <timeless> ... where browser vendors shipped WebSQL based on a single SQL engine
17:51:45 <timeless> ... and we counted them as a single implementation
17:52:05 <timeless> lgombos: the javascript engines in WebKit and Blink are different
17:52:11 <timeless> ... your statements make sense today
17:52:18 <timeless> .. but they'll become radically different
17:52:29 <krisk> q+
17:52:30 <timeless> Travis: the testcases in IE are ported incorrectly
17:52:33 <timeless> ... i'm getting passes
17:52:49 <timeless> s/ported/reported/
17:52:58 <timeless> Jungkee: which version?
17:53:03 <timeless> Travis: 10
17:53:22 <timeless> ArtB: I used a Lumia WP8 IE
17:53:29 <timeless> Travis: I'm on the desktop browser
17:53:58 <timeless> ArtB: did you run the constructor tests as well?
17:54:03 <timeless> Travis: i think there's a testing error
17:54:12 <timeless> Jungkee: for IE10, i'll go w/ the desktop version
17:54:18 <timeless> ... For Opera, this was Presto
17:54:24 <krisk> q
17:54:29 <ArtB> ACTION: Jungkee update the Progress Events interop data using IE 10 Desktop
17:54:29 <trackbot> Created ACTION-697 - Update the Progress Events interop data using IE 10 Desktop [on Jungkee Song - due 2013-05-03].
17:54:31 <timeless> ... but Opera will probably release a browser based on Blink
17:54:40 <timeless> chaals: that brings us back to the question
17:54:52 <timeless> ... do we accept Opera's implementations giving that they've EOL'd their project
17:55:04 <timeless> ... they implemented it interoperably in a product designed for the market
17:55:18 <timeless> ... conclusion is that someone sitting down can design it interoperably based on the spec
17:55:20 <krisk> krisk has joined #webapps
17:55:25 <timeless> ... this is a quality measure of the spec
17:55:31 <timeless> ... the tests help you find out if it works right
17:55:36 <krisk> q
17:55:54 <timeless> krisk: one of the thing we've noticed
17:56:04 <timeless> ... is people reports stuff for IE, and they're wrong
17:56:08 <timeless> ... and they waste a lot of time
17:56:14 <timeless> ... it'd be good for people to contact us
17:56:23 <timeless> ... the vendor should do the reporting
17:56:27 <timeless> ArtB: good feedback
17:56:35 <timeless> [ Break ]
17:56:35 <Ms2ger> I don't think it makes sense to limit testing to only the vendor
17:57:05 <Ms2ger> It's much easier for one person to just run all the browsers they've got available
18:10:01 <ArtB> RRSAgent, make minutes
18:10:01 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2013/04/26-webapps-minutes.html ArtB
18:12:17 <jeffh> jeffh has joined #webapps
18:20:51 <Jungkee> http://www.slideshare.net/jungkees/xhr-webappsf2fsanjose
18:21:25 <timeless> Topic: XHR Status
18:21:42 <timeless> s/Topic: XHR Status//
18:21:47 <timeless> i/www/Topic: XHR Status/
18:21:57 <timeless> Jungkee: Opera submitted quite a few test cases
18:22:01 <danielfilho|w> danielfilho|w has joined #webapps
18:22:06 <timeless> ... 92
18:22:14 <timeless> ... along w/ 28 from MS and 3 from Ms2ger
18:22:25 <timeless> ... we have thin coverage
18:22:30 <timeless> ... and the tests have moved to github
18:22:39 <timeless> ... there were some missing files in the resource folder
18:22:59 <timeless> ... there were 14 commits from last November in WHATWG
18:23:01 <timeless> q+ chaals
18:23:14 <timeless> chaals: the differences,
18:23:20 <timeless> ... is there diverging?
18:23:28 <timeless> Jungkee: they split URL spec out
18:23:39 <timeless> ... some cleanups, and some stream response types
18:23:51 <timeless> ... there were stream response types in the spec before last TPAC
18:24:02 <timeless> ... when i checked whatwg, stream response was removed a few weeks ago
18:24:22 <timeless> chaals: do you think we'll do something different?
18:24:30 <timeless> Jungkee: we think we need to align the spec as much as possible
18:24:41 <timeless> ... we have 13 unresolved bugs
18:25:00 <timeless> ... we plan to branch a REC track version
18:25:04 <hallvord_> I'm half-way through a review of Opera's tests
18:25:04 <timeless> ... to finalize IP commitment
18:25:09 <timeless> ... it's widely implemented
18:25:14 <timeless> ... w/ defacto implementation
18:25:23 <timeless> ... it'd be really nice if the chairs have comments about this
18:25:27 <timeless> chaals: we think it's really cool
18:25:37 <timeless> ... it's useful to get a v1 spec finished
18:26:04 <timeless> ... XHR level 1 would be useful
18:26:16 <hallvord_> the spec has shifted a bit regarding details, so the tests were in worse shape than I expected
18:26:26 <timeless> ... out of scope: CORS, data: url, HTTP auth, overrideMimeType, and progrss events
18:26:31 <timeless> s/grss/gress/
18:26:44 <hallvord_> (sorry to interject stuff while you're probably having a conversation..)
18:26:55 <timeless> ... there's a controversial discussion on http auth
18:27:04 <timeless> ... there'sa XHR bleeding edge
18:27:09 <timeless> s/sa/s a/
18:27:27 <timeless> ... goal is to get it to REC around TPAC 2014
18:27:36 <timeless> ... working on issues
18:27:41 <timeless> ... expedite interop testing
18:27:50 <timeless> ... testing results
18:27:59 <timeless> ... the test results are different browser to browser
18:28:17 <timeless> ... tentatively titled XHR level 2
18:28:26 <timeless> ... we're open to discussion of the title
18:28:36 <hallvord_> (some of the differing test results are due to test bugs!)
18:28:45 <timeless> ... scope includes incremental features. stream response types
18:28:49 <timeless> ... major issues:
18:29:03 <timeless> ... 13
18:29:25 <Ms2ger> XHR level 1?
18:29:34 <Ms2ger> That means we're full circle, I guess
18:29:35 <chaals> https://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/buglist.cgi?query_format=advanced&bug_status=NEW&component=XHR&list_id=9031 -> open issues
18:29:46 <timeless> s/->//
18:29:50 <timeless> s/https/-> https/
18:30:05 <hallvord_> https://github.com/w3c/web-platform-tests/pull/103 -> known test bugs right now
18:30:09 <timeless> Jungkee: ovverridemimetype, http auth
18:30:13 <timeless> ... loading and DOM
18:30:18 <timeless> ... and exceptions/or not
18:30:51 <timeless> ... for credentials, there are a few ways
18:30:52 <timeless> q?
18:30:58 <timeless> queue=
18:31:20 <timeless> ... providing user/auth
18:31:38 <timeless> ... and including in url
18:31:45 <timeless> ... for stream data type
18:31:50 <timeless> ... - i don't know how it goes
18:32:02 <timeless> ... possibly related to MSE ?
18:32:06 <timeless> ... - from HTML WG
18:32:14 <timeless> ... i don't think the other issues are really critical
18:32:31 <timeless> ... we haven't worked on those issues this quarter
18:32:37 <timeless> ... committed to looking in a few months
18:32:42 <timeless> ... back to level 1 version
18:33:00 <timeless> ... there was a discussion in HTML WG
18:33:13 <timeless> ... of publishing a TR as LC and FPWD
18:33:16 <timeless> ... i think for stable
18:33:24 <timeless> chaals: we already have a FPWD of XHR
18:33:27 <timeless> ... so it's a normal LC
18:33:31 <timeless> ... first already exists
18:33:34 <timeless> ... that makes life simple
18:33:54 <timeless> ... June or July for XHR level 1 LC
18:34:04 <timeless> ... questions?
18:34:23 <adrianba> adrianba has joined #webapps
18:34:36 <timeless> chaals: seems clear and sensible to me
18:34:47 <timeless> ... any other issues we should have covered and haven't yet?
18:34:52 <timeless> ... are we going to go on strike?
18:35:04 <timeless> ... chaals: you're french darobin, it's not strike, it's summer time
18:35:34 <timeless> ... then i believe we're at the end of our agenda
18:36:20 <timeless> chaals: i'd like to thank Josh_Soref for scribing
18:36:22 <timeless> [ Applause ]
18:36:34 <timeless> chaals: i'd like to thank ArtB who was here for all the of the real meaning
18:36:37 <timeless> ... and Yves
18:36:49 <timeless> ... we're very thankful to PayPal and Daniel_Austin
18:36:54 <timeless> ... and we'll see you all at TPAC
18:36:59 <timeless> ... there's Lunch outside
18:37:11 <Zakim> -[IPcaller]
18:37:12 <timeless> RRSAgent, make minutes
18:37:12 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2013/04/26-webapps-minutes.html timeless
18:37:26 <timeless> trackbot, end meeting
18:37:26 <trackbot> Zakim, list attendees
18:37:26 <Zakim> As of this point the attendees have been Paypal, Ms2ger, Olli_Pettay, +34.91.432.aaaa, [IPcaller], tobie
18:37:33 <smaug> thanks all
18:37:34 <trackbot> RRSAgent, please draft minutes
18:37:34 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2013/04/26-webapps-minutes.html trackbot
18:37:35 <trackbot> RRSAgent, bye
18:37:49 <timeless> trackbot, start meeting
18:37:51 <trackbot> RRSAgent, make logs public
18:37:52 <smaug> timeless: pong
18:37:53 <trackbot> Zakim, this will be DOM3
18:37:53 <Zakim> I do not see a conference matching that name scheduled within the next hour, trackbot
18:37:54 <trackbot> Meeting: Web Applications Working Group Teleconference
18:37:54 <trackbot> Date: 26 April 2013
18:37:57 <jsbell> jsbell has left #webapps
18:38:04 <timeless> s/Meeting: Web Applications Working Group Teleconference//
18:38:06 <Ms2ger> More mailing lists?
18:38:08 <timeless> s/Date: 26 April 2013//
18:38:12 <timeless> Topic: Coordination (TC39)
18:38:13 <Ms2ger> That'll solve everything
18:38:18 <timeless> chaals: there was a request from TC39
18:38:24 <timeless> ... on public-script-coord@
18:38:27 <timeless> ... when we update apis
18:38:32 <timeless> ... they asked us to ping that list
18:38:40 <timeless> ... to ask if it was a really sensible API
18:38:46 <timeless> ... following the right kind of cookbooks
18:38:49 <timeless> ... and processes
18:38:56 <timeless> ... the chairs could be made responsible for sending a note to the list
18:39:04 <timeless> ... every time we have a new api to that list
18:39:12 <timeless> ... we also have a `api cookbook`
18:39:23 <timeless> ... on designing apis on things you shouldn't do
18:39:31 <timeless> ... i believe there's a cookbook around or two
18:39:38 <timeless> ... maybe we should look at taking it up
18:39:44 <timeless> darobin: there is a cookbook in github
18:39:46 <timeless> ... and it has content
18:39:49 <timeless> ... but it needs work
18:39:52 <timeless> ... it needs updates
18:39:56 <timeless> ... hober mentioned Futures
18:40:01 <timeless> ... i know Jungkee was working on it
18:40:09 <timeless> ... maybe if there are other contributors who want to help out
18:40:13 <timeless> ... it can be taken forward and published
18:40:22 <timeless> ... it's worth involving the new TAG in the cookbook
18:40:30 <timeless> Yves: it has people from TC39
18:40:44 <timeless> chaals: i sent an email to SysApps in particular
18:40:49 <Jungkee> http://www.w3.org/TR/api-design/
18:40:49 <timeless> ... but yeah, this isn't WebApps and TC39
18:40:58 <darobin> https://github.com/darobin/api-design-cookbook/
18:41:01 <timeless> ... there are other groups around W3
18:41:09 <timeless> ... can you action me to send this to the other groups
18:41:14 <timeless> ... and to those who don't read emails
18:41:16 <darobin> ACTION: Chaals to send a note to chairs indicating the TC39 API review policy
18:41:16 <trackbot> Created ACTION-698 - Send a note to chairs indicating the TC39 API review policy [on Charles McCathie Nevile - due 2013-05-03].
18:41:36 <timeless> chaals: this came from a discussion between TC39 and us, on public-script-coord@
18:41:43 <timeless> ... they said, yes please, that'd be helpful
18:41:54 <timeless> Daniel_Austin: we're technically members, we can help
18:41:59 <timeless> chaals: thank you Daniel_Austin for hosting
18:42:01 <timeless> [ Applause ]
18:42:22 <timeless> Daniel_Austin: i got an email from someone @ PayPal, and i was authorized to do this again next year
18:42:29 <timeless> ... we'll try to avoid Bring your kids to work day
18:42:45 <timeless> ... we had a bet as to which kids would be best behaved
18:42:50 <timeless> chaals: thanks very much
18:42:50 <smaug> thanks
18:43:10 <timeless> s/timeless: pong//
18:43:16 <timeless> trackbot, end meeting
18:43:16 <trackbot> Zakim, list attendees
18:43:16 <Zakim> sorry, trackbot, I don't know what conference this is
18:43:24 <trackbot> RRSAgent, please draft minutes
18:43:24 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2013/04/26-webapps-minutes.html trackbot
18:43:25 <trackbot> RRSAgent, bye
18:43:25 <RRSAgent> I see 8 open action items saved in http://www.w3.org/2013/04/26-webapps-actions.rdf :
18:43:25 <RRSAgent> ACTION: barstow announce the WG will meet during TPAC 2013 in November [1]
18:43:25 <RRSAgent>   recorded in http://www.w3.org/2013/04/26-webapps-irc#T16-11-33-1
18:43:25 <RRSAgent> ACTION: charles to be the default Editor of URL spec [2]
18:43:25 <RRSAgent>   recorded in http://www.w3.org/2013/04/26-webapps-irc#T16-20-32
18:43:25 <RRSAgent> ACTION: charles prepare a Draft charter update for the WG to review [3]
18:43:25 <RRSAgent>   recorded in http://www.w3.org/2013/04/26-webapps-irc#T16-22-08
18:43:25 <RRSAgent> ACTION: barstow work with Tobie, Robin, Ms2ger, Odin, etc. to make sure WebApps' testing workflow is well documented and kept on GitHub [4]
18:43:25 <RRSAgent>   recorded in http://www.w3.org/2013/04/26-webapps-irc#T17-25-03
18:43:25 <RRSAgent> ACTION: create CR branch for Web Storage and Selectors API v1 test suites [5]
18:43:25 <RRSAgent>   recorded in http://www.w3.org/2013/04/26-webapps-irc#T17-27-17
18:43:25 <RRSAgent> ACTION: kris create the CR branch for Web Messaging and Web Sockets test suites [6]
18:43:25 <RRSAgent>   recorded in http://www.w3.org/2013/04/26-webapps-irc#T17-29-18
18:43:25 <RRSAgent> ACTION: Jungkee update the Progress Events interop data using IE 10 Desktop [7]
18:43:25 <RRSAgent>   recorded in http://www.w3.org/2013/04/26-webapps-irc#T17-54-29
18:43:25 <RRSAgent> ACTION: Chaals to send a note to chairs indicating the TC39 API review policy [8]
18:43:25 <RRSAgent>   recorded in http://www.w3.org/2013/04/26-webapps-irc#T18-41-16