16:09:55 <RRSAgent> RRSAgent has joined #webapps
16:09:55 <RRSAgent> logging to http://www.w3.org/2013/04/25-webapps-irc
16:11:30 <tantek> tantek has joined #webapps
16:12:06 <Zakim> RWC_WAF(WAF2F)12:00PM has now started
16:12:12 <Zakim> +[IPcaller]
16:12:29 <smaug> Zakim, [IPcaller] is Olli_Pettay
16:12:30 <Zakim> +Olli_Pettay; got it
16:12:36 <dglazkov> dglazkov has joined #webapps
16:12:38 <smaug> Zakim, nick smaug is Olli_Pettay
16:12:39 <Zakim> ok, smaug, I now associate you with Olli_Pettay
16:13:04 <ArtB> Meeting: Web Applications WG f2f Meeting
16:13:21 <ArtB> Date: 25 April 2013
16:13:44 <ArtB> Agenda: http://www.w3.org/wiki/Webapps/April2013Meeting
16:14:07 <a12u> a12u has joined #webapps
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16:14:33 <chaals> chaals has joined #webapps
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16:14:51 <Ms2ger> ArtB, anything interesting today?
16:15:36 <chaals> Ms2ger: no, we're just going to do some work.
16:16:21 <Ms2ger> Zakim, code?
16:16:21 <Zakim> the conference code is 92323 (tel:+1.617.761.6200 sip:zakim@voip.w3.org), Ms2ger
16:16:30 <Zakim> +??P0
16:16:36 <Ms2ger> Zakim, P0 is me
16:16:36 <Zakim> sorry, Ms2ger, I do not recognize a party named 'P0'
16:16:44 <Ms2ger> Zakim, ??P0 is me
16:16:44 <Zakim> +Ms2ger; got it
16:17:08 <Ms2ger> Not that I hear anything
16:17:36 <Ms2ger> That's something
16:17:38 <smaug> did you hear now something  :)
16:17:45 <Ms2ger> Was that you?
16:18:01 <smaug> yup
16:18:02 <israelh> israelh has joined #webapps
16:18:15 <Ms2ger> Seems to be a bit of noise on the line :)
16:20:55 <Ms2ger> So we're the only attendees?
16:21:00 <lgombos> lgombos has joined #webapps
16:21:37 <ArtB> zakim, who is here?
16:21:37 <Zakim> On the phone I see Olli_Pettay, Ms2ger
16:21:38 <Zakim> On IRC I see lgombos, israelh, abraud, chaals, aizu, dglazkov, tantek, RRSAgent, Zakim, adrianba, fjh, glenn_, ArtB, smaug, davidb, karl, Ms2ger, marcosc, danielfilho|w, logbot,
16:21:38 <Zakim> ... timeless, Dashiva, gavin, heath, slightlyoff, scheib, Hixie, jgraham
16:21:50 <smaug> --Ms2ger
16:21:54 <plh> plh has joined #webapps
16:21:57 <abraud> present+ Arnaud_Braud
16:22:02 <plh> zakim, passcode?
16:22:02 <Zakim> the conference code is 92323 (tel:+1.617.761.6200 sip:zakim@voip.w3.org), plh
16:22:17 <Ms2ger> Ms2ger has changed the topic to: WebApps WG F2F: http://www.w3.org/wiki/Webapps/April2013Meeting; channel log = http://krijnhoetmer.nl/irc-logs/ ; Shadowy characters and Importers welcome
16:22:41 <Zakim> +Paypal
16:22:43 <Ms2ger> RRSAgent, make minutes
16:22:43 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2013/04/25-webapps-minutes.html Ms2ger
16:22:54 <ArtB> Chair: Art, Charles
16:23:11 <Ms2ger> RRSAgent, make logs public
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16:23:48 <ArtB> Scribe: Josh_Soref
16:23:56 <jeff> jeff has joined #webapps
16:24:06 <ArtB> Present: Art_Barstow, Charles_McCathieNevile, Josh_Soref
16:24:20 <darobin> darobin has joined #webapps
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16:24:39 <krisk> zakim, krisk present
16:24:39 <Zakim> I don't understand 'krisk present', krisk
16:24:47 <eliot> eliot has joined #webapps
16:24:48 <Ms2ger> ScribeNick: timeless
16:25:02 <ArtB> Present+ Yves_Lafon
16:25:02 <Bin_Hu> Bin_Hu has joined #webapps
16:25:06 <lyle> lyle has joined #webapps
16:25:20 <Bin_Hu> present+ Bin_Hu
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16:25:31 <ArtB> Present+ Tyler_Barton, Israel_Hilerio
16:25:46 <eliot> present+ eliot
16:25:51 <timeless> scribe: Josh_Soref
16:25:51 <timeless> scribenick: timeless
16:25:51 <timeless> topic: Introductions
16:25:51 <timeless> [ Chaals takes the mic around the room and has everyone introduce themselves ]
16:26:05 <adrianba> Present+ adrianba
16:26:08 <ArtB> Present+ Glenn_Adams
16:26:12 <wonsuk> Present+ Wonsuk_Lee
16:26:25 <ArtB> Present+ Laszlo_Gombos
16:27:10 <aizu> Present+ aizu
16:27:17 <ArtB> Present+ Olli_Pettay
16:27:22 <ArtB> Present+ Ms2ger
16:27:39 <timeless> RRSAgent, draft minutes
16:27:39 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2013/04/25-webapps-minutes.html timeless
16:27:40 <yosuke> yosuke has joined #webapps
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16:28:00 <timeless> s/ArtB, anything interesting today?/
16:28:06 <smaug> yes
16:28:12 <JonathanJ> Present+ Jonghong_Jeon
16:28:15 <timeless> s/Ms2ger: no, we're just going to do some work.//
16:28:19 <timeless> Topic: Agenda
16:28:25 <timeless> ArtB: we preallocated some time slots
16:28:32 <MikeSmith> Present+ MikeSmith
16:28:36 <timeless> ... and we listed some topics, that chaals and i wanted to discuss
16:28:44 <timeless> ... we have probably half of the meeting unallocated
16:28:52 <timeless> ... we can try to move potential topics into timeslots
16:28:57 <timeless> ... or if people have suggestions, we can add them
16:29:02 <yosuke> Present+ YosukeFunahashi
16:29:06 <timeless> ... chaals on the whiteboard is trying to complete the schedule as much as we can
16:29:22 <timeless> ... usually in these meetings, we try to go through the spec status dashboard (PubStatus)
16:29:28 <timeless> ... to make sure everyone is on the same page wrt the status
16:29:37 <timeless> ... a really useful document for non-WG members
16:29:43 <timeless> ... wrt each spec
16:29:48 <Jungkee> Jungkee has joined #webapps
16:29:52 <timeless> ... it's pretty important to keep those up to date
16:30:00 <timeless> s/Not that I hear anything//
16:30:07 <timeless> s/--Ms2ger//
16:30:12 <timeless> s/So we're the only attendees?//
16:30:18 <timeless> ... anyone have any topics?
16:30:26 <timeless> ... i know Jungkee asked to allocate time for XHR and Progress Events
16:30:29 <timeless> ... he suggested an hour for that
16:30:38 <timeless> ... should we grab the 4:30pm-5:30 slot?
16:30:43 <timeless> Jungkee: less than 1 hour
16:30:47 <timeless> ... but more than 30mins
16:30:51 <timeless> ... probably start from
16:30:59 <timeless> s/Was that you?//
16:31:04 <timeless> s/yup//
16:31:13 <timeless> Jungkee: 4pm-4:40?
16:31:21 <timeless> chaals: let's call that 5pm and if you're good, we get to go home early
16:31:28 <timeless> RRSAgent, draft minutes
16:31:28 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2013/04/25-webapps-minutes.html timeless
16:31:41 <timeless> ArtB: sounds good to me, i'll leave an extra slot at 5:30
16:31:48 <timeless> ... anyone else have preferences?
16:31:54 <timeless> ... I have a slot for CR Interop status
16:32:04 <timeless> ... the only 4 specs that remain are specs where Hixie is the lead editor
16:32:16 <timeless> ... i'd like to spend some time to give an update on where i think we are on those specs
16:32:24 <timeless> ... SSE, Web Messaging, Sockets, Workers
16:32:31 <timeless> ... - anyone think it will require more than a few minutes?
16:32:52 <timeless> s/Seems to be a bit of noise on the line :)//
16:32:57 <timeless> ... above DOM3 was IME
16:33:03 <timeless> chaals: we had a request from PF WG
16:33:08 <timeless> ... put into a time slot at 3:30pm
16:33:13 <timeless> ... they can shift that if we need to
16:33:31 <timeless> s/PF WG/PF WG to talk about IME/
16:33:40 <timeless> ... we have a 2:30pm session w/ WebAppSec on CSP
16:33:47 <timeless> ... is 30mins enough to do CSP?
16:33:51 <timeless> ArtB: i think so
16:33:53 <timeless> chaals: alright
16:33:56 <adrianba> s/3:30pm/3pm/
16:34:01 <timeless> s/That's something//
16:34:12 <JaeChung> JaeChung has joined #webapps
16:34:13 <Jungkee> Present+ Jungkee_Song
16:34:17 <timeless> ArtB: next on the list was AppCache
16:34:20 <timeless> ... sicking registered
16:34:25 <timeless> chaals: he's w/ arun, they're late
16:34:30 <timeless> ArtB: should we slot them in?
16:34:37 <timeless> chaals: i'd avoid slotting them in, as they're not here
16:34:46 <timeless> ... we could put them in the afternoon
16:34:50 <timeless> RRSAgent, draft minutes
16:34:50 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2013/04/25-webapps-minutes.html timeless
16:34:57 <JaeChung> Present+ Jae Chung
16:35:18 <timeless> s/did you hear now something :)//
16:35:21 <timeless> ArtB: AppManifest?
16:35:31 <timeless> ... i know SysApps is doing a bunch of work
16:35:35 <timeless> ... how about after XHR?
16:35:43 <timeless> chaals: we might do it with AppCache
16:35:50 <timeless> ArtB: ok
16:35:54 <timeless> ... how many SysApps members here?
16:35:57 <timeless> ... quite a few?
16:36:01 <timeless> chaals: 6 or 7
16:36:07 <timeless> ArtB: DOM 3 Events?
16:36:20 <timeless> ... i know Travis and Gary are excited to spend time on that
16:36:26 <timeless> chaals: in the morning?
16:36:33 <timeless> Travis: that's fine
16:36:36 <timeless> ArtB: where?
16:36:39 <timeless> chaals: running up to lunch
16:36:52 <timeless> ArtB: after IndexedDB?
16:37:01 <timeless> chaals: if sicking isn't here, we're stuck on IndexedDB
16:37:06 <timeless> ArtB: dom4, status and plans?
16:37:11 <timeless> ... when we do Dashboard?
16:37:14 <timeless> chaals: yeah
16:37:19 <timeless> ArtB: File API?
16:37:25 <timeless> ... hard to do w/ arun
16:37:28 <timeless> chaals: we could do that last
16:37:38 <timeless> bryan: do File related APIs as a block?
16:37:43 <timeless> ArtB: makes sense
16:37:45 <JonathanJ> JonathanJ has joined #webapps
16:37:47 <timeless> RRSAgent, draft minutes
16:37:47 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2013/04/25-webapps-minutes.html timeless
16:37:58 <timeless> ArtB: full screen?
16:38:02 <timeless> chaals: dashboard
16:38:04 <timeless> ArtB: UI Events?
16:38:13 <tlr> tlr has joined #webapps
16:38:14 <timeless> ArtB: Travis update during dashboard?
16:38:18 <timeless> ArtB: dashboard
16:38:36 <timeless> present+ Travis_Leithead
16:38:45 <timeless> ArtB: URL
16:38:49 <timeless> chaals: dashboard
16:39:01 <jeffh> jeffh has joined #webapps
16:39:05 <hober> present+ hober
16:39:35 <timeless> israelh: on fullscreen
16:39:42 <bryan> present+ Bryan_Sullivan
16:39:46 <timeless> chaals: dashboard lets you have some time
16:39:51 <timeless> ... if we need more, we schedule time
16:39:58 <timeless> chaals: admin, chartering, misc
16:40:02 <timeless> ... when do you want to do that?
16:40:06 <timeless> ArtB: tomorrow morning?
16:40:10 <timeless> chaals: people won't be there in the morning
16:40:16 <timeless> ArtB: after the break in the morning?
16:40:17 <timeless> chaals: sure
16:40:50 <timeless> ArtB: WebIDL?
16:40:55 <timeless> plh: i have a few things to say
16:40:59 <timeless> ArtB: tomorrow after testing?
16:41:00 <smaug> heycam|away should participate WebIDL discussion
16:41:03 <timeless> plh: perfect
16:41:19 <timeless> present+ Philippe_Le_Hegaret
16:41:31 <timeless> chaals: heycam would be better w/ afternoon
16:41:41 <timeless> ... bounce something somewhere
16:41:48 <timeless> ... AppCache to early tomorrow moring
16:42:02 <timeless> Daniel_Austin: couple of stragglers
16:42:14 <timeless> eric: Eric from Google
16:42:21 <timeless> sicking: Jonas Sicking
16:42:26 <timeless> present+ Jonas_Sicking
16:42:36 <timeless> present+ Eric_Uhrhane
16:42:45 <timeless> israelh: can we do AppCache
16:42:52 <timeless> chaals: ok, we'll do AppCache first thing this morning
16:43:05 <timeless> ... AppCache and Manifests and IndexedDB and DOM3 events
16:43:09 <timeless> ... plenty of entertainment
16:43:19 <timeless> ArtB: not sure we need an hour for IndexedDB
16:43:33 <timeless> ArtB: any other hot topics?
16:43:41 <timeless> ... we have Testing for Tomorrow morning
16:43:59 <timeless> ... 10am-11 tomorrow morning
16:44:09 <timeless> bryan: we'll talk about AppCache w/ Manifest
16:44:16 <timeless> ... what about WebIntents / WebActivities?
16:44:22 <timeless> ArtB: we can hit it during the dashboard
16:44:34 <timeless> bryan: it'd be good to hear more than a moment's talk about it...
16:44:40 <timeless> ArtB: anyone have more to say about WebIntents?
16:44:47 <timeless> ... let's take are of it during the dashboard
16:44:56 <timeless> RRSAgent, draft minutes
16:44:56 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2013/04/25-webapps-minutes.html timeless
16:45:16 <timeless> s/did you hear now something :)//
16:45:32 <timeless> i|w3|topic: Dashboard / PubStatus|
16:45:34 <acolwell> acolwell has joined #webapps
16:45:36 <timeless> ArtB: CORS is first
16:45:47 <timeless> ... we have WebAppSec coming over to talk about CSP
16:45:54 <timeless> ... they can give us a quick update on CORS CR
16:46:00 <timeless> ... anyone have concerns on CORS?
16:46:07 <timeless> ... next: Clipboard APIs and events
16:46:17 <timeless> ... halford published a new update on that
16:46:21 <timeless> ... quite a bit of discussion
16:46:27 <timeless> ... i suspect an LC is a few months away at least
16:46:33 <timeless> ... anyone else on clipboard?
16:46:45 <timeless> ... we'll skip dimitri's web components, he has an hour this afternoon
16:46:52 <tantek> tantek has joined #webapps
16:46:52 <timeless> ... dom4, lachlan hunt is the editor of record
16:46:57 <timeless> ... he's an invited expert
16:47:04 <timeless> ... he left opera this last winter
16:47:10 <timeless> ... dom4 that anne is doing has involved
16:47:18 <timeless> ... it includes a rough specification of futures
16:47:23 <timeless> ... i don't think lachlan has moved it into his spec
16:47:25 <timeless> Travis: no
16:47:32 <timeless> ArtB: we could rathole on this
16:47:40 <timeless> ... anyone willing to step up and help lachlan
16:47:50 <timeless> RRSAgent, draft minutes
16:47:50 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2013/04/25-webapps-minutes.html timeless
16:48:02 <timeless> chaals: lachlan may be busy
16:48:10 <timeless> ... anyone wants to put their hand up and help...
16:48:16 <timeless> ... rathole on futures, i think we should take
16:48:23 <timeless> ... coordination w/ TC39
16:48:26 <timeless> ... WebIDL stuff
16:48:59 <timeless> s|s///||
16:49:30 <timeless> ArtB: anything that depends on dom4/futures is going to run into a problem
16:49:40 <timeless> glenn_: HTML5
16:49:44 <timeless> chaals: not our spec
16:49:49 <timeless> ArtB: certainly not the only spec
16:49:55 <timeless> chaals: probably the highest priority
16:50:04 <timeless> ... know someone who wants to be famous, and hairless
16:50:10 <timeless> ... we'd appreciate names, addresses, ...
16:50:29 <timeless> s/did you hear now something/XX/
16:50:40 <timeless> glenn_: why not send an email to the list soliciting editors?
16:50:44 <timeless> chaals: we will
16:50:51 <ArtB> ACTION: barstow work with Chaals on a call for editor help for DOM4
16:50:51 <trackbot> Created ACTION-675 - Work with Chaals on a call for editor help for DOM4 [on Arthur Barstow - due 2013-05-02].
16:50:54 <timeless> ... but please raise your hand to get the mic, so the people on the phone can hear
16:51:01 <timeless> ArtB: DOM Parsing and Serialization
16:51:07 <timeless> Travis: extremely stable spec
16:51:14 <timeless> ... one open bug to update Status of document
16:51:19 <timeless> ... to say it's a mirror of Ms2ger 's document
16:51:25 <timeless> ... i don't believe we have any tests yet
16:51:30 <timeless> ... i believe next step is
16:51:33 <timeless> ... make update, fix bug
16:51:37 <timeless> ... propose LC
16:51:40 <timeless> ... and start working on test suite
16:51:49 <timeless> chaals: test facilitator?
16:51:55 <timeless> Travis: TBD
16:52:02 <timeless> Ms2ger: I have some tests
16:52:12 <timeless> ArtB: can you take an action to work on that bug?
16:52:15 <timeless> Travis: yes
16:52:20 <timeless> chaals: estimate of LC schedule?
16:52:25 <ArtB> ACTION: travis resolve last bug for DOM P&S and notify Art so a CfC for LC can be started
16:52:26 <trackbot> Created ACTION-676 - Resolve last bug for DOM P&S and notify Art so a CfC for LC can be started [on Travis Leithead - due 2013-05-02].
16:52:39 <timeless> Travis: a week or two to issue CfC
16:52:43 <timeless> chaals: you've got a week
16:52:51 <timeless> chaals: File API is running behind schedule
16:52:55 <timeless> ArtB: we allocated that
16:52:59 <timeless> chaals: this afternoon
16:53:06 <timeless> ArtB: Fullscreen?
16:53:15 <timeless> israelh: a couple things we found
16:53:21 <timeless> ... there's a reference to the FullScreen Event
16:53:24 <timeless> ... that's talked about in the Spec
16:53:28 <timeless> ... but isn't part of the IDL
16:53:37 <timeless> ... everyone does implement on onevent handler
16:53:42 <timeless> ... but it isn't in the document
16:53:51 <timeless> ... the only thing is
16:54:02 <timeless> ... do we need a dependency between Screen Orientation and Fullscreen?
16:54:10 <timeless> ... putting part of spec w/ what others have done
16:54:20 <timeless> ... and other is should there be a relationship w/ screen orientation
16:54:22 <Travis> Travis has joined #webapps
16:54:32 <timeless> ArtB: we had a few people join us
16:54:46 <timeless> alec_flett: indexeddb
16:54:53 <timeless> joshua_bell: joshua bell, google
16:55:08 <chaals> rrsagent, draft minutes
16:55:08 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2013/04/25-webapps-minutes.html chaals
16:55:24 <timeless> ArtB: there's an active thread on israelh 's question
16:55:31 <timeless> ... screen orientation is israelh 's
16:55:36 <timeless> ... fullscreen is tantek and anne
16:55:46 <timeless> ArtB: chaals said asking the chairs is not the right thing
16:55:50 <timeless> ... ask the room
16:55:54 <timeless> israelh: it was a question for the room
16:56:15 <timeless> ... is there an objection to adding the idl definitions to the spec
16:56:19 <timeless> ... Mozilla and Chrome do it
16:56:21 <timeless> chaals: seems logical
16:56:30 <timeless> israelh: do we need the editor here?
16:56:58 <timeless> ArtB: it's tricky since anne and tantek aren't members
16:57:13 <timeless> ... tantek is a member of CSS, and it's a joint deliverable w/ them
16:57:34 <timeless> ArtB: Gamepad
16:57:40 <timeless> ... i haven't gotten updates from scott/ted on it
16:57:45 <timeless> ... any data on implementation status
16:57:53 <timeless> smaug: ted landed a patch to gecko
16:58:00 <timeless> ... and has been fixing bugs in the spec
16:58:02 <timeless> ... it's changing
16:58:12 <timeless> chaals: implementation status beyond gecko?
16:58:21 <timeless> smaug: gecko has some support in nightlies
16:58:23 <timeless> ... and chrome has some
16:58:31 <timeless> ... but i don't know if it's the same, as the spec is changing
16:58:36 <timeless> chaals: testing?
16:58:43 <timeless> ... do you know more than we do?
16:58:47 <timeless> smaug: no
16:59:20 <timeless> ArtB: next is Web Components, IndexedDB
16:59:23 <fjh> fjh has left #webapps
16:59:25 <timeless> ... Java Bindings
16:59:31 <timeless> Travis: who has the action for that?
16:59:35 <timeless> ... heycam?
16:59:36 <timeless> chaals: yes
16:59:41 <timeless> ArtB: should we push to NOTE?
16:59:44 <timeless> Travis: i'd like to
16:59:52 <timeless> ... i don't think anyone would object
17:00:06 <ArtB> ACTION: barstow start a CfC to move Java bindinings for WebIDL to WG Note
17:00:06 <trackbot> Created ACTION-677 - Start a CfC to move Java bindinings for WebIDL to WG Note [on Arthur Barstow - due 2013-05-02].
17:00:14 <timeless> ArtB: pointer lock
17:00:19 <timeless> RRSAgent, draft minutes
17:00:19 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2013/04/25-webapps-minutes.html timeless
17:00:35 <timeless> smaug: non fullscreen pointer lock is supported in nightlies
17:00:43 <timeless> ... and i think in Alpha
17:00:48 <timeless> ... and i think in Chrome
17:00:49 <sicking> sicking has joined #webapps
17:00:51 <timeless> s/Alpha/Aurora/
17:00:56 <timeless> ... i think they're pretty close
17:01:06 <timeless> ArtB: action on chaals / i to chase vincent on getting to LC
17:01:15 <timeless> ... does the spec look pretty good, or are there major issues?
17:01:19 <timeless> smaug: i think there are issues
17:01:24 <timeless> ... on how permissions are handled
17:01:31 <timeless> ... i think there are bugs open
17:01:39 <timeless> chaals: yeah, action on us to chase vincent
17:01:47 <timeless> ... progress we have scheduled
17:01:50 <timeless> ... and push
17:02:00 <timeless> chaals: Quota Management, whose fault is that?
17:02:00 <ArtB> ACTION: barstow ask Vincent about next step for PointerLock (e.g. what needs to be done to go LC)
17:02:01 <trackbot> Created ACTION-678 - Ask Vincent about next step for PointerLock (e.g. what needs to be done to go LC) [on Arthur Barstow - due 2013-05-02].
17:02:33 <timeless> eric: as far as i know, Kinuko isn't going to be here
17:02:41 <timeless> ... no status
17:02:44 <timeless> chaals: action us to chase that
17:02:49 <timeless> ... Selectors API
17:02:53 <timeless> ... it's a REC, we're done
17:02:57 <timeless> ... *woohoo*
17:03:03 <ArtB> ACTION: barstow ask Kinuko about status and plans for Quota Mangement API
17:03:03 <trackbot> Created ACTION-679 - Ask Kinuko about status and plans for Quota Mangement API [on Arthur Barstow - due 2013-05-02].
17:03:22 <timeless> ... Selectors API Level 2?
17:03:29 <timeless> Travis: i'd love to hear an implementation report
17:03:37 <timeless> ... i know IE has pieces of it - matchesSelector()
17:03:44 <timeless> [ Silence ]
17:03:46 <timeless> Travis: ok
17:03:56 <timeless> ArtB: we can take an action to ask lachy
17:04:01 <richt> richt has joined #webapps
17:04:04 <ArtB> ACTION: barstow ask Lachlan if he has some impl data re Selectors API v2
17:04:04 <trackbot> Created ACTION-680 - Ask Lachlan if he has some impl data re Selectors API v2 [on Arthur Barstow - due 2013-05-02].
17:04:07 <timeless> s/scribenick: timeless//
17:04:10 <timeless> s/scribe: Josh_Soref//
17:04:22 <timeless> s/yes/yeS/
17:04:24 <timeless> s/yes//
17:04:27 <timeless> s/yeS/yes/
17:04:35 <timeless> MikeSmith: Web Components has arrived
17:04:41 <timeless> present+ dglazkov
17:04:44 <timeless> present+ tantek
17:04:52 <timeless> tantek: and a couple of github observers
17:05:01 <timeless> mat_tod: mat tod
17:05:13 <timeless> corry_johnson: corry johson [Github]
17:05:18 <timeless> s/tod/tod [Github]
17:05:20 <timeless> ArtB: SSE
17:05:27 <timeless> ... entered CR last december
17:05:28 <jsbell> jsbell has joined #webapps
17:05:38 <timeless> ... tina has run inerop
17:05:42 <timeless> ... once bugs are fixed
17:05:49 <timeless> ... that spec should be able to do interop testing for CR
17:05:55 <timeless> s/inerop/interop/
17:06:08 <timeless> ... tina has a column for IE
17:06:13 <timeless> ... it appears, that it's not implemented?
17:06:17 <timeless> ... should we remove that column?
17:06:30 <timeless> adrianba: we don't have anything to say about any plans
17:06:34 <timeless> ... you should remove the column
17:06:38 <timeless> ArtB: ok, i'll tell tina
17:06:42 <timeless> ... anything else on SSE?
17:06:52 <timeless> ... Shadow DOM, dglazkov will take mic later
17:06:58 <timeless> ... Screen Orientation, we spoke earlier
17:07:02 <timeless> ... - mounir isn't here
17:07:27 <timeless> chaals: i was especting tobie to point out
17:07:35 <timeless> ... there's functionality that's important to tablet/game developers
17:07:43 <ArtB> ACTION: barstow ask Tina to remove the IE column from the SSE implementation report
17:07:43 <timeless> ... about specifying/holding that isn't in spec
17:07:43 <trackbot> Created ACTION-681 - Ask Tina to remove the IE column from the SSE implementation report [on Arthur Barstow - due 2013-05-02].
17:07:51 <timeless> israelh: one question, related to fullscreen
17:07:56 <timeless> ... what are expectations around browser?
17:08:04 <timeless> ... should browser be in full screen at that point?
17:08:10 <timeless> ... or should it be something that
17:08:22 <timeless> ... maybe it's... when you go fullscreen
17:08:32 <timeless> chaals: my understanding is that the browser isn't expected to fullscreen itself
17:08:39 <timeless> ... the thing you fullscreen goes fullscreen
17:08:50 <timeless> ... it's unclear what happens if you fullscreen something in a fullscreened thing
17:08:56 <timeless> israelh: part of it is
17:09:00 <timeless> ... there's a jarring experience
17:09:06 <timeless> ... when the browser is taking a portion of the screen
17:09:11 <timeless> ... and you navigate to a web page
17:09:17 <timeless> ... and it forces the screen orientation to switch
17:09:23 <timeless> ... in a tablet, everything is flipped arond
17:09:26 <timeless> s/arond/around/
17:09:33 <timeless> ... is there a ratio when this would kick in
17:09:41 <timeless> ... it's very different than just happened to navigate to the page
17:09:52 <timeless> ... frame around it happens to be mostly fullscreen
17:09:53 <tantek_> tantek_ has joined #webapps
17:09:59 <timeless> ... and a page that requests to go full screen
17:10:07 <timeless> ... like input
17:10:16 <timeless> chaals: don't see any reason why you'd put that into
17:10:19 <timeless> ... that you'd count a ratio
17:10:30 <timeless> ... authors can create nice experiences or crazy jarry
17:10:40 <timeless> ... useful to do what they want to do
17:10:49 <timeless> ... you'll get horrendous experiences
17:10:54 <timeless> ... that seems to be a minimal
17:11:00 <timeless> ... thing we don't want to specify
17:11:08 <timeless> ... and b lets people do what they want
17:11:13 <timeless> israelh: more of a potential interop
17:11:17 <timeless> ... would be great to say
17:11:23 <timeless> ... we agree it doesn't really matter
17:11:30 <timeless> ... doesn't matter on size of screen
17:11:36 <timeless> ... maybe there's a suggestion, as a note
17:11:43 <timeless> ... for certain sizes
17:11:49 <timeless> tantek_: key thing is
17:11:58 <timeless> ... to capture there might be an issue between interaction of these two apis
17:12:04 <timeless> ... i'd invite people to submit user scenario
17:12:11 <timeless> ... where user goes through some number of steps
17:12:19 <timeless> ... altering orientation / entering fullscreen
17:12:22 <timeless> ... and gets confused
17:12:32 <timeless> ... if that happens, we can document that
17:12:35 <garykac> garykac has joined #webapps
17:12:38 <timeless> ... as informative advice for apps to avoid
17:12:54 <timeless> ... sound reasonable?
17:12:56 <timeless> israelh: yes
17:13:09 <timeless> chaals: not expected to be finished this week
17:13:17 <timeless> ... anyone have update on testing/implementation status?
17:13:20 <timeless> chaals: Streams API
17:13:35 <timeless> ... mounir?
17:13:41 <timeless> MikeSmith: what happened to other guy?
17:13:50 <timeless> ArtB: Feras is Streams
17:14:07 <timeless> adrianba: i understand there's a discussion of Streams on the list
17:14:12 <timeless> ... i need to have a look at that
17:14:18 <timeless> ... we're using the Stream API in MSE
17:14:29 <timeless> ... i understand there was some discussion of it in WebCrypto earlier this week
17:14:30 <timeless> israelh: yes
17:14:35 <timeless> adrianba: we've implemented this
17:14:43 <timeless> ... it's possible there could be more discussion in the File discussion
17:14:52 <timeless> ArtB: any other implementations of Streams API?
17:14:57 <timeless> MikeSmith: google's working on one
17:15:09 <timeless> ... or, i have some reason to believe they may be working on one
17:15:18 <timeless> ... perhaps someone who works for Google could comment?
17:15:27 <timeless> darobin: i think fake_alex_russel
17:15:45 <timeless> s/russel/russell/
17:15:50 <timeless> chaals: URL will be in Admin
17:15:58 <timeless> ... Manifest format, we have w/ AppCache
17:16:00 <hober> s/fake_alex_russell/@FakeAlexRussell/
17:16:08 <timeless> ... Web Components - give dglazkov
17:16:18 <timeless> ... WebIDL - we have scheduled
17:16:21 <timeless> ... Web Intents?
17:16:43 <timeless> bryan: just wondering if those involved would be present
17:16:47 <timeless> ... to have an update
17:16:56 <timeless> ... on status / convergence of Intents/Activities
17:17:02 <timeless> ArtB: DAP was what was driving this
17:17:09 <timeless> ... my understanding is it isn't active
17:17:20 <mounir> sicking might have updates for you guys
17:17:23 <timeless> chaals: does Firefox OS have any skin in this game
17:17:26 <shepazu> shepazu has joined #webapps
17:17:31 <timeless> sicking: we had meetings w/ Google on Intents/Activities
17:17:35 <timeless> ... and sent a report to the list
17:17:40 <timeless> ... nothing has happened since
17:17:55 <timeless> ... we need to experiment with implementations to figure out what experiences are good
17:18:00 <timeless> ... and then figure out apis to do that
17:18:05 <timeless> ... we can't do apis until we figure out experiences
17:18:17 <timeless> bryan: we have at least Beta/Aurora of activities?
17:18:30 <timeless> sicking: we have soon to be shipping implementations of Activities in a very narrow scenario
17:18:35 <timeless> ... only on mobile-small screen
17:18:40 <timeless> ... only for Apps
17:18:45 <timeless> ... to be Activity Handlers
17:18:49 <timeless> ... it doesn't work on desktop
17:18:57 <timeless> ... it doesn't allow pages to be handlers
17:19:07 <timeless> ... we need to solve those issues
17:19:11 <timeless> chaals: why doesn't?
17:19:18 <timeless> sicking: UX issues are different
17:19:25 <timeless> ... on mobile you only have one app running at a time
17:19:32 <timeless> ... on desktop you have multiple displayed apps
17:19:36 <timeless> chaals: you turned it off?
17:19:45 <timeless> sicking: we could do the existing behavior, but it would be bad
17:19:53 <timeless> bryan: to move that forward?
17:19:59 <timeless> ... it's a joint TF of DAP/WebApps
17:20:09 <timeless> ... it'd be great to get other eyes around those user interface issues
17:20:18 <timeless> ... could we have those issues on a wiki?
17:20:26 <timeless> ... something to understand what that UX is and provide input
17:20:32 <timeless> ... i understood it as an area
17:20:41 <timeless> ... that would involve Protocol / Content Handler capabilities?
17:20:45 <timeless> sicking: too many unknowns
17:21:03 <timeless> ArtB: my assumption is that if it's important to someone, they'll put resources to drive it forward
17:21:06 <timeless> chaals: except DOM4
17:21:10 <timeless> ArtB: Web Messaging
17:21:18 <timeless> ... i think we have agreement on a set of tests
17:21:34 <timeless> ... Alex said he'd run interop testing on IE + Opera
17:21:40 <timeless> krisk: Kris K, Microsoft
17:21:53 <timeless> ... from our private testing, we know two browsers pass each test across the board
17:22:01 <timeless> ... should discuss how we should submit them
17:22:06 <timeless> ... we should be able to move to REC
17:22:14 <timeless> ... if browser vendors could click the links
17:22:22 <timeless> ArtB: you're talking about all submitted tests?
17:22:26 <timeless> krisk: all in Mercurial Approved
17:22:38 <timeless> ... there's the move from Mercurial to Github
17:22:43 <timeless> chaals: ready to declare victory
17:22:51 <timeless> ArtB: would be nice to get a WebKit status
17:22:57 <timeless> ... anyone want to run the tests?
17:23:01 <timeless> chaals: I've got a webkit browser
17:23:14 <timeless> ArtB: anyone i could get from Mozilla to run through the tests?
17:23:17 <timeless> sicking: probably
17:23:21 <timeless> ... i don't know
17:23:25 <timeless> ArtB: i'll talk to smaug
17:23:27 <timeless> ... that's great
17:23:34 <timeless> ... so we could move to PR real soon
17:23:36 <timeless> krisk: correct
17:23:39 <timeless> ArtB: Web Sockets
17:23:41 <timeless> ... similar
17:23:49 <timeless> ... we have agreed on a set of  tests from Opera+Microsoft
17:23:51 <timeless> ... krisk ?
17:24:00 <timeless> krisk: Ms2ger also submitted tests
17:24:06 <timeless> ... we have a lot of tests now, >500 total
17:24:14 <timeless> ... bad news, we have 4 tests that only pass in one browser
17:24:15 <timeless> ... bummer
17:24:26 <timeless> ... handful of tests that i believe are just broken
17:24:30 <timeless> ... either fix or remove
17:24:35 <timeless> ... that's where it's at
17:24:50 <timeless> krisk: we should wait until tomorrow
17:24:57 <timeless> ArtB: Web Storage?
17:24:58 <timeless> ... PR
17:25:04 <timeless> ... blocking REC is normative reference issues
17:25:07 <timeless> ArtB: Workers
17:25:13 <timeless> ... i would have said we had an approved test suite
17:25:18 <timeless> ... and then simon said wait wait
17:25:21 <timeless> ... he's adding tests
17:25:25 <timeless> ... he feels test suite isn't 100%
17:25:39 <timeless> ... i assume he'll add those tests in several weeks
17:25:42 <timeless> ... testing in May/June?
17:25:49 <jeffh> jeffh has joined #webapps
17:26:02 <timeless> krisk: simon last fall agreed to take on test suite
17:26:07 <timeless> ... and he added shared workers tests
17:26:12 <timeless> ... i think there's more work to do
17:26:28 <timeless> ArtB: shared workers wasn't broadly implemented last fall?
17:26:35 <timeless> Travis: i think there are at least two implementations
17:26:44 <timeless> ArtB: i have an action to push simon to complete his contributions
17:26:48 <timeless> chaals: XHR is scheduled
17:27:00 <timeless> [ Break ]
17:27:42 <timeless> garykac: UI events aren't on PubStatus
17:27:52 <timeless> ArtB: Pointer Events has a dependency on UI Events
17:28:00 <timeless> ... i meant to ask about getting a FPWD
17:28:08 <timeless> ... are we ready to publish that?
17:28:12 <timeless> garykac: we should talk about that today
17:28:13 <dgrogan_cloud> dgrogan_cloud has joined #webapps
17:28:17 <timeless> Travis: i'll add it to pubstatus
17:28:32 <timeless> garykac: for a number of months, it's in a good state
17:28:39 <timeless> ... i'm concerned about keyboard events
17:28:45 <timeless> ... there's an event that specifies locale
17:28:50 <timeless> s//[ Break ]/
17:28:54 <timeless> ArtB:  is there a bugzilla component?
17:28:57 <timeless> ... i'll check that
17:29:03 <timeless> ... should we start a CfC?
17:29:06 <timeless> garykac: sounds good
17:29:26 <ArtB> ACTION: barstow start a CfC for FPWD of UI Events (and make sure it has a Bugzilla component)
17:29:27 <trackbot> Created ACTION-682 - Start a CfC for FPWD of UI Events (and make sure it has a Bugzilla component) [on Arthur Barstow - due 2013-05-02].
17:29:36 <timeless> chaals: anything else we've forgotten?
17:29:43 <timeless> ArtB: next up is AppCache/App Manifest
17:29:45 <timeless> [ Break ]
17:29:57 <timeless> RRSAgent, draft minutes
17:29:57 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2013/04/25-webapps-minutes.html timeless
17:30:04 <jeff> Present+ Jeff
17:30:09 <Travis> Present+ Travis
17:30:16 <plh> Presen+ plh
17:30:17 <lyle> present+ Lyle
17:30:27 <jeff> present+ plh
17:30:27 <adrianba> present+ krisk
17:30:30 <dgrogan_cloud> present+ David_Grogan
17:30:32 <timeless> present+ Daniel_Austin
17:31:00 <dgrogan_cloud> present+ Alec_Flett
17:31:01 <timeless> s/corry_johnson: corry johson/Corey_Johnson: Corey_Johnson/
17:31:11 <ArtB> Present+ Corey_Johnson(GitHub), Matt_Todd(GitHub)
17:31:28 <timeless> s/mat_tod: mat tod/Matt_Todd: Matt Todd/
17:31:37 <jsbell> present+ Joshua_Bell
17:31:39 <timeless> s/Corey_Johnson: Corey_Johnson/Corey_Johnson: Corey Johnson/
17:31:43 <lyle> Present+ Lyle_Troxell(4D)
17:43:44 <JaeChung> JaeChung has joined #webapps
17:45:28 <EricU> EricU has joined #webapps
17:46:38 <virginie_> virginie_ has joined #webapps
17:47:53 <krisk> krisk has joined #webapps
17:48:44 <lyle> lyle has joined #webapps
17:50:15 <timeless> topic: App Manifest
17:50:21 <timeless> sicking: as you may or may not know
17:50:27 <timeless> ... there's a SysApps WG in W3C
17:50:30 <lyle> lyle has joined #webapps
17:50:32 <timeless> ... totally different from WebApps
17:50:44 <timeless> ... one of the things we're working on is creating an App Platform similar to Widgets
17:50:46 <timeless> ... same UCs
17:50:51 <timeless> ... but different set of solutions
17:51:09 <timeless> ... something we'd like is get input from this WG
17:51:15 <timeless> ... we'd like to make something based on the web
17:51:21 <timeless> ... not just use the same JS APIs
17:51:24 <timeless> ... and Markup language
17:51:31 <timeless> ... but also have the same Design principles
17:51:40 <ArtB> ACTION: barstow work with Alex and Chaals re interop data for Web Messaging
17:51:40 <trackbot> Created ACTION-683 - Work with Alex and Chaals re interop data for Web Messaging [on Arthur Barstow - due 2013-05-02].
17:51:41 <timeless> ... the companies in SysApps are from a different background
17:51:47 <timeless> ... we'd like to
17:51:50 <timeless> ... um, eh
17:51:57 <timeless> ... we have a Manifest specification
17:52:00 <JonathanJ> http://manifest.sysapps.org/
17:52:01 <timeless> ... and a Runtime specification
17:52:12 <JonathanJ> http://runtime.sysapps.org/
17:52:25 <timeless> ... the latest EDs of the specs
17:52:34 <timeless> ... the specs are living in Github and we use Github to track issues
17:52:38 <timeless> ... we're proposing
17:52:43 <timeless> ... to create a joint deliverable w/ this WG
17:52:49 <timeless> ... at the very least for the Manifest specification
17:53:02 <timeless> ... we think there are a lot of uses for Manifest specification
17:53:06 <timeless> ... outside of the SysApps
17:53:12 <timeless> ... it solves the same UCs
17:53:18 <timeless> ... similar to what apple's meta tags
17:53:25 <timeless> ... if the User bookmarks this to the homescreen
17:53:34 <timeless> ... the name of the icon, the icon
17:53:39 <timeless> ... it's similar to AppCache
17:53:46 <timeless> ... things to startup
17:54:00 <timeless> ... this Manifest ties together existing pieces
17:54:09 <timeless> ... there's app specific things (permissions)
17:54:29 <timeless> ... we could remove that, and move them into other specifications
17:54:38 <timeless> ... we'd like to standardize this so we could have `bookmark to homepage`
17:54:43 <timeless> ... and so you could build other experiences
17:54:53 <timeless> ... Chrome has Miniature tabs
17:54:58 <timeless> ... FirefoxOS has app tabs
17:55:08 <timeless> ... when the user says `make this into an app tab`, you could grab info from the manifest
17:55:14 <timeless> ... use icons and appcache info from the manifest
17:55:21 <timeless> ... there's a lot that isn't app specific
17:55:35 <timeless> ... want to create richer experience for web sites
17:55:41 <hober> q?
17:55:44 <timeless> ... without having to make an app
17:55:44 <hober> q+
17:55:48 <tantek_> Aside: Firefox's mini tabs are called "Pinned Tabs": http://support.mozilla.org/en-US/kb/pinned-tabs-keep-favorite-websites-open
17:55:49 <timeless> ... we believe this is already chartered
17:55:53 <chaals> q+
17:55:55 <timeless> ... based on work already done by widgets
17:56:04 <timeless> ... this is the feature set we're trying to solve
17:56:11 <timeless> ... this integrates nicely w/ AppCache
17:56:14 <timeless> q?
17:56:16 <timeless> ack hober
17:56:23 <timeless> hober: i wanted to quickly +1 the UCs
17:56:26 <timeless> ... for a standard manifest format
17:56:35 <timeless> ... extending beyond the non web sandbox of sysapps
17:56:41 <tantek_> "Pinned Tabs allow you to always keep your favorite web apps like Facebook, Gmail and Twitter open and just a click away." - from cited URL.
17:56:43 <timeless> ... and not all browsers are participating there
17:56:46 <timeless> ack chaals
17:56:55 <timeless> chaals: i believe this is chartered, because i wrote this into the charter
17:56:59 <timeless> ... back when we said yeah
17:57:01 <timeless> ... and i said no
17:57:05 <timeless> s/i/you/
17:57:07 <timeless> ... so welcome back
17:57:12 <timeless> sicking: we always wanted to do this
17:58:23 <timeless> ArtB: chaals is right that
17:58:33 <timeless> ... the manifest draft on the screen is within scope
17:58:41 <timeless> ... but it is not identified as a joint deliverable with sysapps
17:58:46 <timeless> ... it makes sense to collaborate
17:58:50 <JonathanJ> http://www.w3.org/wiki/System_Applications_WG:_Manifest
17:58:55 <timeless> ... maybe Eve / plh could give feedback
17:59:11 <plh> s/Eve/Yves/
17:59:11 <timeless> ... can we discuss on public-webapps w/o explicitly updating the charter?
17:59:13 <davidb> davidb has joined #webapps
17:59:16 <timeless> ... we know in the past
17:59:30 <timeless> ... adding new deliverables to WebApps has raised issues for members because of the IP commitment
17:59:34 <timeless> ... in this case, i think it's ok
17:59:39 <timeless> ... because it looks like what we have
17:59:44 <timeless> ... if we go down this path, we'd need a CfC
17:59:51 <timeless> ... so far, i've heard hober say it's reasonable
17:59:56 <timeless> ... we haven't heard anyone else
17:59:59 <timeless> ... anyone else
18:00:08 <timeless> chaals: Yandex would like to make it a joint deliverable
18:00:18 <timeless> bryan: we'd support it being a joint deliverable
18:00:27 <timeless> ... the needs of web apps and installable are overlapped
18:00:35 <timeless> ArtB: seeing no other feedback
18:00:39 <timeless> ... maybe, we'll craft a CfC
18:00:44 <timeless> ... use current draft as our guide
18:00:49 <timeless> ... sicking asked about permissions
18:00:54 <lyle> lyle: we'd support it being a joint deliverable (4D)
18:00:58 <chaals> ACTION: chaals to make a CfC for joint work with sysapps on webapp manifests
18:00:58 <trackbot> Created ACTION-684 - Make a CfC for joint work with sysapps on webapp manifests [on Charles McCathie Nevile - due 2013-05-02].
18:01:00 <timeless> ... we could use the CfC to gauge whether that's too far
18:01:07 <timeless> plh: why joint deliverable?
18:01:11 <timeless> ... maybe darobin or MikeSmith could
18:01:15 <JF> JF has joined #webapps
18:01:21 <timeless> ArtB: this isn't AppCache
18:01:33 <timeless> q?
18:01:46 <sicking> q+
18:01:49 <JF> JF has left #webapps
18:01:52 <timeless> MikeSmith: as someone who has to deal w/ administrative hassle of joint deliverables
18:01:56 <timeless> ... please don't make me do it
18:02:00 <timeless> ... i don't see it getting us more IP
18:02:07 <timeless> chaals: other alternative is to move the spec into this group
18:02:12 <timeless> ... it's on our list of deliverables
18:02:13 <arun> arun has joined #webapps
18:02:19 <timeless> sicking: i'm fine w/ moving it from SysApps to this group
18:02:34 <timeless> ... in SysApps, we'd have to define extensions, but we'd have to do that anyway
18:02:44 <timeless> ... it's a question we haven't raised in the SysApps WG, but we'd have to raise it
18:02:46 <chaals> ack si
18:02:50 <timeless> ... it's an option
18:03:08 <timeless> ArtB: so that's a CfC to make WebApps sole owner?
18:03:09 <JaeChung> JaeChung has joined #webapps
18:03:11 <timeless> chaals: we don't need a CfC
18:03:20 <timeless> ... imagine a chair of SysApps was around
18:03:25 <timeless> ... how do you feel about the idea?
18:03:31 <timeless> wonsuk: i think that in case of SysApps WG
18:03:42 <timeless> ... we already made a decision to propose a TF w/ WebApps
18:03:49 <Jin_Peng> Jin_Peng has joined #webapps
18:03:51 <timeless> ... in aspect of SysApps WG there are no objection
18:03:57 <timeless> ... not sure how can we make a TF
18:04:03 <timeless> ... do we need to make a different mailing list?
18:04:05 <timeless> ... and wiki page
18:04:08 <timeless> chaals: this is the thing
18:04:16 <timeless> ... if we make a joint TF, there's a lot of admin to do
18:04:25 <timeless> ... the suggestion is to JUST do Manifest in WebApps
18:04:32 <timeless> ... and SysApps says we've given it away
18:04:46 <timeless> ... but do you think that would be something the SysApps group might be happy with?
18:04:49 <JaeChung> JaeChung has joined #webapps
18:04:49 <timeless> wonsuk: i think so
18:04:59 <timeless> ArtB: anyone have any issues with that?
18:05:00 <timeless> [ None ]
18:05:09 <timeless> ArtB: working assumption is WebApps will work on this
18:05:14 <timeless> ... is marcosc in WebApps?
18:05:21 <timeless> Yves: yes
18:05:36 <timeless> sicking: a more controversial proposal
18:05:43 <timeless> ... the same thing, but for runtime spec
18:05:46 <timeless> ... for same reasons
18:05:51 <timeless> ... we have the runtime spec
18:05:58 <timeless> ... which defines concept of apps, small api for interacting
18:06:06 <timeless> ... i don't think we'd want to move that to WebApps
18:06:09 <hober> q+
18:06:13 <timeless> ... i think it would be interesting to do as a joint Deliverable
18:06:19 <timeless> ... i can imagine people don't like that
18:06:23 <timeless> chaals: you'd have to talk to MikeSmith
18:06:26 <timeless> q?
18:06:30 <timeless> ack hober
18:06:33 <timeless> hober: i'd rather not do that
18:06:59 <timeless> ArtB: i'd expect there'd be other objections from Members
18:07:09 <timeless> sicking: it seems to me that it falls under the same widget charter
18:07:11 <timeless> ... but
18:07:15 <timeless> ... i understand
18:07:22 <timeless> ... this is why i brought it up separately and after
18:07:27 <timeless> ... but i'd still like more webby input
18:07:35 <timeless> chaals: so you're recruiting people to do sysapps
18:07:37 <timeless> ... work
18:07:42 <timeless> ... and then dropping the actual work
18:07:48 <timeless> sicking: you say that, as if it's a bad thing
18:07:50 <timeless> [ laughter ]
18:07:54 <abraud> present+ Arnaud_Braud
18:08:00 <timeless> chaals: i think the current charter would permit it
18:08:06 <timeless> ... if you just do it, you might surface objections
18:08:12 <timeless> ... the current charter doesn't say we'll do joint work
18:08:29 <timeless> ... if we try to do that, you'll provide a nice opportunity to give their opinion on the distribution of resources
18:08:33 <timeless> sicking: i'll drop the subject
18:08:37 <timeless> Topic: AppCache
18:08:49 <timeless> sicking: i sent a proposal to webapps@
18:09:00 <timeless> ... about a very different AppCache than what we currently have
18:09:05 <timeless> ... based on discussion over years
18:09:12 <ArtB> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-webapps/2013JanMar/0977.html -> Jonas' AppCache proposal
18:09:23 <timeless> ... i received input, not a lot, but more than i could keep up w/
18:09:27 <timeless> ... two questions
18:09:29 <timeless> s/->//
18:09:33 <timeless> s/http/-> http/
18:09:40 <timeless> ... 1. is this group still interested in this?
18:09:48 <timeless> ... 2. which implementations would be interested in doing this?
18:09:55 <timeless> ... which implementations want to do an updated appcache
18:10:02 <timeless> ... which would be interested
18:10:19 <timeless> ... there's also separate work in github on a NavigationController, which is a different way of solving the problem
18:10:27 <timeless> ... my intent was to have both, with an interaction between the two
18:10:32 <timeless> ... the second question is
18:10:40 <timeless> ... should we have a declarative format at all
18:10:46 <timeless> ... or only a Script based (NavigationControlleR)
18:10:55 <timeless> ... there's work to fix the performance
18:10:57 <timeless> s/R/r/
18:10:57 <chaals> q+
18:11:04 <lyle> present+ Lyle_Troxell
18:11:06 <timeless> ... there's some concept of a manifest
18:11:10 <timeless> ... it's a big question
18:11:22 <timeless> ... A. who's interested in working on something like the New AppCache?
18:11:35 <timeless> ... B. if we do new AppCache, entirely Script based, or something declarative?
18:11:37 <timeless> ack chaals
18:11:40 <timeless> chaals: we want to do something
18:11:47 <JonathanJ> rrsagent, draft minutes
18:11:47 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2013/04/25-webapps-minutes.html JonathanJ
18:11:51 <timeless> ... the stuff we're pushing to implement is likely to be script based
18:11:58 <timeless> ... but it seems like it'd be nice to have a declarative backing
18:12:05 <timeless> ... a lot of UCs aren't amazingly complicated
18:12:13 <timeless> ... making a declarative approach available makes it easier
18:12:28 <timeless> israelh: i think a declarative approach should continue to be supported
18:12:37 <timeless> ... if only for backwards compat w/ simple sites
18:12:42 <timeless> ... a scripting approach is needed
18:12:50 <timeless> ... the ability to allow those interact
18:12:55 <timeless> ... it's just about how to define them
18:13:13 <timeless> sicking: MS's input on this is sort of needed
18:13:23 <timeless> ... the way the script based thing is heading, it doesn't have a declarative part at all
18:13:35 <timeless> ... if it's something that's important to you guys, i'd urge you to voice that opinion
18:13:43 <timeless> ... i believe declarative is important
18:14:00 <timeless> ... i have a concern that declarative solves so few UCs that it isn't useful
18:14:16 <timeless> israelh: there are things in the issues outlined
18:14:27 <timeless> ... that we have resolved w/ proprietary tags
18:14:34 <timeless> ... that were requested by internal properties
18:14:38 <timeless> ... like caching master entry
18:14:50 <timeless> ... you create a relationship, but don't cache master entry
18:14:55 <adrianba> q+
18:14:56 <JaeChung> JaeChung has joined #webapps
18:15:00 <timeless> ... we already have a large property that actually uses this
18:15:06 <timeless> ... IndexedDB and AppCache to work offline
18:15:11 <timeless> ... it goes back to what scenarios
18:15:16 <timeless> ... there are scenarios in which this does work
18:15:23 <timeless> ... maybe they aren't as interesting anymore
18:15:28 <timeless> ... but they're existing apps
18:15:34 <timeless> ... i keep hearing about wild UCs
18:15:45 <timeless> ... we need to be specific about what UCs aren't solved by this
18:15:49 <timeless> ... that are solved by something else
18:15:55 <chaals> ack as
18:15:57 <timeless> adrianba: we've talked for  a while about the issues
18:16:00 <chaals> ack adr
18:16:08 <timeless> ... can we evolve our way to a solution
18:16:12 <timeless> ... or do we do something new?
18:16:16 <timeless> ... i think doing something new is
18:16:25 <timeless> ... the approach that sicking is suggesting
18:16:31 <timeless> ... and something we should embrace
18:16:35 <timeless> ... the one question i had was
18:16:47 <timeless> ... whether we should look at something entirely separate from what's there currently
18:16:57 <timeless> ... it wasn't clear whether the proposal would ignore the manifest attribute
18:17:09 <timeless> ... that was the old approach, and we're doing something separate
18:17:19 <timeless> ... i was thinking we'd have similar entrypoints
18:17:24 <timeless> ... but the format and rules would be different
18:17:31 <timeless> ... discuss pros/cons of that
18:17:44 <timeless> sicking: my vision w/ this proposal
18:17:59 <timeless> ... was to enable supporting back compat
18:18:06 <timeless> ... enable web sites to support the old format
18:18:14 <timeless> ... and take advantage of browsers supporting the new format
18:18:25 <timeless> ... invent a new attribute that links to the new manifest
18:18:33 <timeless> ... apps could list both attributes
18:18:38 <timeless> ... or only new or only old
18:18:46 <timeless> sicking: it is definitely a
18:18:58 <timeless> ... replacement, but enabling websites/implementations to have a transition
18:19:03 <adrianba> q+
18:19:10 <timeless> ... and to keep supporting the old stuff for as long as useful
18:19:22 <timeless> chaals: it's said that AppCache perfectly supports its UCs
18:19:26 <timeless> ... "and that's the problem"
18:19:29 <israelh> q+
18:19:33 <timeless> ... it's important to lay out the UCs that we're trying to deal w/
18:19:37 <timeless> ... we set out UCs
18:19:42 <timeless> ... some of this isn't pure offline stuff
18:19:48 <timeless> ... it's optimization of the network
18:19:55 <timeless> ... most of the network in Russia is crappy
18:20:03 <timeless> ... that's important to work with
18:20:08 <timeless> ... here are UCs we'd like to enable
18:20:17 <timeless> ... we've all got ideas in our head
18:20:19 <timeless> q+ sicking
18:20:39 <timeless> sicking: paul backus, of zynga started a thread
18:20:44 <timeless> ... i got feedback from others
18:20:49 <timeless> ... it'd be useful to list UCs
18:20:54 <timeless> ... and how this proposal solves the UCs
18:20:59 <timeless> ... and include sample manifests
18:21:06 <timeless> ... i'm planning on writing that up
18:21:09 <timeless> ... which hopefully will help
18:21:19 <timeless> ... i still think we have the large question of
18:21:24 <timeless> ... should we do this declarative solution
18:21:30 <timeless> ... script base solves everything
18:21:35 <timeless> ... it may have perf issues
18:21:39 <timeless> ... but they're probably solvable
18:21:44 <timeless> ... we should spend time looking at UCs
18:21:48 <timeless> ... and see how it matches them
18:21:49 <timeless> ack adrianba
18:21:56 <timeless> adrianba: 3 points
18:22:06 <timeless> ... 1. we talked about this a bunch
18:22:17 <timeless> ... we've all experienced problems w/ the original appcache proposal
18:22:19 <timeless> ... we want to fix it
18:22:22 <timeless> ... this is a great starting point
18:22:27 <timeless> ... we should write it more formally
18:22:31 <timeless> ... we'd be happy to help w/ that
18:22:41 <timeless> ... part of that should be gathering together those UCs
18:22:52 <timeless> ... it's a great suggestion to take UCs and show examples of how to satisfy
18:22:58 <timeless> ... gathering into a document would be great
18:23:12 <timeless> ... 2. probably some charter work to do to make it possible
18:23:17 <timeless> ... we started that work at TPAC
18:23:20 <timeless> ... given this is
18:23:26 <timeless> ... different enough from the current AppCache
18:23:40 <timeless> ... and we aren't talking about modifying AppCache
18:23:47 <timeless> ... i'm less concerned about talking w/ HTML WG
18:24:03 <timeless> ... 3. we made some substantial engineering investments in supporting the original appcache
18:24:13 <timeless> ... manage caches, keep those files, know when to purge them
18:24:19 <timeless> ... we don't want to do that again
18:24:25 <timeless> ... we'd like to see how much we can make work w/ this
18:24:32 <timeless> ... that might impose constraints
18:24:34 <timeless> ack israelh
18:24:36 <timeless> israelh: in the past
18:24:44 <timeless> ... when we tried to make progress w/ the existing manifest
18:24:50 <timeless> ... there was controversy about UCs
18:24:54 <timeless> ... it was offline only
18:24:57 <timeless> ... being open
18:25:07 <timeless> ... about transactional boundaries
18:25:11 <timeless> ... are issues we'll have to figure out
18:25:17 <timeless> ... to make it map to the engine we have now
18:25:34 <timeless> chaals: there's a nice seat next to arun
18:25:42 <timeless> sicking: i have this naive hope
18:25:53 <timeless> ... it sounds one of the things the existing AppCache did
18:25:57 <timeless> ... the transactional approach
18:26:02 <timeless> ... to go from one to another
18:26:08 <timeless> ... it's hard to say at this stage
18:26:14 <timeless> ... at mozilla, we don't have that problem
18:26:19 <timeless> ... our existing impl is so crappy
18:26:25 <timeless> ... that we have to rewrite it anyway
18:26:26 <timeless> [ laughter ]
18:26:28 <dgrogan_cloud> q?
18:26:32 <timeless> sicking: the way it goes away, we're happy
18:26:36 <timeless> ... it's not entirely by accident
18:26:46 <timeless> ... the intent is that we can use the same manifest i was talking about before
18:26:55 <timeless> ... they use the same linking mechanism
18:27:03 <timeless> ... icon:, name:, cache:
18:27:11 <JaeChung> JaeChung has joined #webapps
18:27:13 <timeless> ... that would work much better than the current Manifest specification
18:27:18 <timeless> ... that links to separate items
18:27:35 <timeless> chaals: i put a note to myself to talk about this for Chartering discussion
18:27:42 <timeless> ... when you say help
18:27:48 <timeless> ... you were going to offer an editor
18:27:59 <timeless> adrianba: ...
18:28:15 <timeless> ArtB: i heard a need for UCs
18:28:26 <timeless> ... sicking, does that response address UCs?
18:28:29 <timeless> ... do we need volunteers?
18:28:32 <timeless> sicking: there's work to be done
18:28:36 <timeless> ... i'll send the UCs we had in mind
18:28:41 <timeless> ... there's more work
18:28:53 <timeless> ... this is the main case where the existing AppCache fell down
18:29:19 <timeless> ... i think this is the way to prove/disprove that the declarative proposal will work
18:29:25 <timeless> ArtB: we could ask paul to contribute
18:29:31 <timeless> ... anyone else willing to contribute UCs?
18:29:32 <timeless> adrianba: yes
18:29:41 <timeless> ArtB: chaals, i saw you raise your hand
18:30:03 <timeless> sicking: i can't be the editor
18:30:25 <timeless> ArtB: nice to know we have interest in doing things
18:30:38 <timeless> ... we can ask for leads, or helpers
18:30:45 <timeless> chaals: we could perhaps get a helper
18:30:48 <timeless> ... not sure about a lead
18:30:52 <timeless> ... the people i'm thinking of
18:30:52 <marcosc> zakim, passcode?
18:30:52 <Zakim> the conference code is 92323 (tel:+1.617.761.6200 sip:zakim@voip.w3.org), marcosc
18:31:02 <timeless> adrianba: i don't think we're in a position to make a commitment
18:31:05 <timeless> ... want to help
18:31:10 <timeless> ... w/ formal writing down of UCs
18:31:16 <timeless> .... to make sure we capture those
18:31:21 <timeless> ... we have some of that written down
18:31:24 <chaals> q+ marcos to volunteer?
18:31:28 <timeless> ... transcribing it isn't much extra work
18:31:37 <Zakim> +[IPcaller]
18:31:43 <timeless> ... getting things from MS about what worked/failed
18:31:46 <timeless> ... capturing that
18:31:51 <chaals> zakim, [ipcaller is myVictim
18:31:51 <Zakim> +myVictim; got it
18:31:54 <timeless> ... we think this is going in the right direction
18:32:01 <marcosc> zakim, IPcaller is me
18:32:01 <Zakim> sorry, marcosc, I do not recognize a party named 'IPcaller'
18:32:03 <chaals> zakim, myVictim is Marcos
18:32:03 <Zakim> +Marcos; got it
18:32:03 <timeless> ArtB: makes sense
18:32:17 <timeless> marcosc: hello
18:32:34 <timeless> ArtB: we have an action that marcosc will be editing appcache?
18:32:36 <timeless> marcosc: no
18:32:46 <timeless> [ break ]
18:39:06 <timeless> Topic: Indexed DB
18:39:45 <timeless> jsbell: on the agenda was going over open bugs
18:39:47 <timeless> ... and LC tracking
18:39:53 <timeless> ... let's do LC tracking first
18:39:54 <ArtB> http://dvcs.w3.org/hg/IndexedDB/raw-file/tip/Overview.html -> Indexed DB ED
18:39:56 <timeless> s/->//
18:39:57 <jsbell> https://dvcs.w3.org/hg/IndexedDB/raw-file/tip/IndexedDB%20Disposition%20of%20Comments.html
18:40:05 <timeless> s/http:/-> http://
18:40:12 <timeless> s/https/-> https/
18:40:17 <garykac> garykac has joined #webapps
18:40:24 <timeless> s/html/html Disposition of Comments/
18:40:25 <lyle> lyle has joined #webapps
18:40:28 <timeless> jsbell: lots of green
18:40:34 <timeless> ... most aren't normative changes
18:40:40 <timeless> ... but we should probably do another LC
18:40:47 <timeless> chaals: TBD here?
18:40:50 <jeff> jeff has joined #webapps
18:41:02 <timeless> eliot: i should probably change TBD to something more appropriate
18:41:10 <timeless> ... that was placeholder text from a table shepazu used
18:41:16 <timeless> ... there's no response from those people
18:41:27 <timeless> ... i could change TBD to NA/blank
18:41:31 <timeless> chaals: limit of time for response
18:41:35 <ArtB> ACTION: eliot update IDB LC comment tracking document to replace "TBD" with something more descriptive
18:41:35 <timeless> ... don't wait forever
18:41:35 <trackbot> Created ACTION-685 - Update IDB LC comment tracking document to replace "TBD" with something more descriptive [on Eliot Graff - due 2013-05-02].
18:41:39 <MikeSmith> RRSAgent, make minutes
18:41:39 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2013/04/25-webapps-minutes.html MikeSmith
18:41:42 <timeless> jsbell: seeing a few nods for going to another LC
18:41:45 <timeless> chaals: seems reasonable
18:42:11 <timeless> israelh: one of the questions we have
18:42:15 <timeless> ... it seems a lot of the comments we made
18:42:23 <timeless> ... have been integrated into implementations
18:42:24 <timeless> q+ chaals
18:42:29 <timeless> ... i haven't heard of new implementations
18:42:38 <timeless> ... i haven't heard of things that will invalidate
18:42:44 <timeless> ... are things discussed in email
18:42:49 <timeless> ... that we haven't brought back to the spec
18:42:54 <timeless> ... i'm wondering about the Process
18:43:02 <timeless> ... does moving forward/going back to LC?
18:43:06 <timeless> ack sic
18:43:16 <timeless> sicking: i'm fine w/ not going back to LC
18:43:22 <marcosc> Zakim: ack me
18:43:27 <timeless> ... not terribly knowledgeable about formalism
18:43:39 <timeless> ack chaals
18:43:43 <timeless> chaals: going back to LC
18:43:50 <timeless> ... it's more of a hygiene thing
18:43:54 <timeless> ... put it up for 3 weeks
18:43:59 <timeless> ... only the changes are fairly open
18:44:10 <timeless> ... it gives you hygiene for Patent Policy
18:44:24 <timeless> ... and it takes 3 weeks for ArtB / myself to organize the next step anyway
18:44:40 <timeless> lyle: is there any interest in indexedDB including webSql
18:44:48 <timeless> ... a jdbc remote database call
18:44:52 <timeless> [ laughter ]
18:44:58 <timeless> israelh: that's why i want this to move forward
18:45:03 <timeless> ... we've gone through a lot of things in the WG
18:45:09 <timeless> ... we've identified things we've chosen not to do in V1
18:45:14 <timeless> ... likely to stir up again in LC
18:45:19 <timeless> ... things we'll have the same answers to
18:45:23 <timeless> ... implementations are really close
18:45:28 <timeless> ... let's keep moving forward
18:45:40 <timeless> ... my inclination is to move forward
18:45:43 <timeless> ... and then get to v2
18:45:48 <timeless> ... for new things
18:46:01 <chaals> q+
18:46:06 <chaals> ack ma
18:46:06 <Zakim> marcos, you wanted to volunteer?
18:46:07 <timeless> i/gives you/chaals: you probably won't have comments anyway/
18:46:10 <timeless> ack chaals
18:46:18 <timeless> chaals: i agree we don't want to open the thing up widely
18:46:23 <timeless> ... the LC is "this is version1"
18:46:33 <timeless> ... we're showing you the spec we're pushing to REC
18:46:41 <timeless> ... if people say "you forgot to boil the ocean"
18:46:46 <timeless> ... the response will be "out of scope"
18:46:52 <timeless> ... we'll make that very clear if we go to LC
18:47:01 <timeless> ... we say "you're not getting websql" or anything else into
18:47:04 <timeless> q?
18:47:52 <timeless> ArtB: i have a feeling trying to convince director that there haven't been changes to invalidate review
18:47:56 <timeless> ... +1 a new LC
18:48:10 <timeless> ... concerted effort to get those comments addressed quickly
18:48:17 <timeless> ... don't let it drag on for months
18:48:26 <timeless> ... as a chair, you learn not to allow them to drag on
18:48:33 <timeless> israelh: scope it, that'd be awesome
18:48:46 <timeless> ... don't allow for repetition of previously presented comments
18:48:52 <timeless> chaals: absolutely
18:48:54 <timeless> ... resolution
18:48:59 <timeless> ... we'll put up 3 week LC
18:48:59 <sicking> sicking has joined #webapps
18:49:04 <ArtB> https://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/buglist.cgi?product=WebAppsWG&component=Indexed%20Database%20API&resolution=---&list_id=8909 -> IDB Open Bugs
18:49:04 <timeless> ... this is a review of the changes
18:49:10 <timeless> ... we don't take on new work
18:49:12 <timeless> s/->//
18:49:16 <timeless> s/https/-> https/
18:49:22 <timeless> ... we'll do more in v2
18:49:26 <timeless> ... what's your testing story?
18:49:35 <timeless> sicking: i don't think we have two implementations that implement everything
18:49:38 <timeless> ... IE is lacking Arrays
18:49:41 <marcosc> +q
18:49:42 <timeless> ... Chrome is lacking Blob
18:49:45 <timeless> ... Firefox impl is perfect
18:49:51 <timeless> chaals: that's what they said about AppCache
18:50:01 <timeless> jsbell: no sync api impls
18:50:08 <timeless> marcosc: i was going to ask about sync api
18:50:08 <smaug> drop the sync API ?
18:50:12 <timeless> ... will that be dropped in LC?
18:50:20 <timeless> sicking: there's no way it'll survive
18:50:25 <timeless> ... it's listed as AT-RISK
18:50:31 <timeless> ... maybe we could drop before LC
18:50:37 <timeless> ... we have a mostly working impl
18:50:40 <timeless> jsbell: +1 to droppiing
18:50:43 <timeless> s/ii/i/
18:50:47 <smaug> +1 dropping
18:50:50 <timeless> israelh: +1 for dropping
18:50:55 <timeless> ArtB: what's the plan for the bugs?
18:50:56 <tantek> tantek has joined #webapps
18:51:05 <timeless> eliot: those 3 bugs were submitted after the official LC period
18:51:14 <timeless> ... not sure how that applies
18:51:17 <timeless> ... one is in DoC
18:51:20 <timeless> ... the other two came later
18:51:29 <timeless> ArtB: if we publish a new LC, we should consider these
18:51:34 <timeless> eliot: i'll add to DoC
18:51:40 <timeless> jsbell: 21801
18:51:48 <timeless> ... i filed as i was making a bug fix to our impl
18:51:52 <timeless> ... i think it's non-controversial
18:51:56 <timeless> ... looking for eyeballs
18:51:56 <Ms2ger> https://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=21801
18:52:02 <timeless> ... 21555
18:52:08 <Ms2ger> https://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=21555
18:52:10 <timeless> ... this came out of discussion on ML/other bug
18:52:16 <timeless> ... to match new features of WebIDL
18:52:21 <timeless> ... try to avoid webIDL `any`
18:52:26 <timeless> ... using webIDL `unions`
18:52:38 <timeless> ... this looks like webIDL doesn't support attribute returning js array
18:52:53 <timeless> ... comments from heycam suggesting webIDL spec additions to address
18:53:00 <timeless> sicking: i don't think we need to depend on webIDL
18:53:05 <timeless> ... we can use prose
18:53:13 <timeless> jsbell: yes, we can do that, seeing nodding
18:53:20 <timeless> jsbell: 17681
18:53:23 <timeless> ... was in DoC
18:53:28 <timeless> ... it's been resolved, reopened, resolved, reopened
18:53:39 <timeless> ... when spec was written, it listed a list of exceptions for arrays w/ tabular format
18:53:44 <timeless> ... the spec wasn't written in new format
18:53:49 <timeless> ... of step-wise
18:53:52 <timeless> ... i've removed the tables
18:54:02 <timeless> ... but the spec doesn't specify order
18:54:09 <timeless> ... and the opera tests showed different behaviors
18:54:21 <timeless> ... sicking and i talked about picking an ordering or picking some implementation
18:54:25 <timeless> ... israelh has an objection
18:54:32 <timeless> israelh: from our perspective
18:54:38 <timeless> ... we don't see this as adding value to the web developer
18:54:47 <timeless> ... the pattern  we see is that they'll catch the exception
18:55:02 <timeless> ... they're not going to look at the details of the exception
18:55:04 <Ms2ger> Should we replace all exceptions by plain Errors?
18:55:05 <sicking> q+
18:55:07 <timeless> ... either move forward or not care
18:55:17 <timeless> ... don't see reason to expend resources
18:55:21 <timeless> ... even if the spec had it
18:55:24 <timeless> ack marcosc
18:55:26 <chaals> ack ma
18:55:34 <timeless> ack sicking
18:55:42 <timeless> sicking: i think israelh addressed my question
18:55:49 <timeless> ... specwise it's easy to give a global order
18:56:01 <timeless> ... if it supports A, B, C, you check for A, B, then C
18:56:06 <timeless> ... i don't think it matters
18:56:13 <timeless> ... i still would like to see a defined order
18:56:20 <timeless> israelh: i think it'd be silly
18:56:29 <timeless> ... to not be spec compliant just because of error order
18:56:34 <adrianba> q+
18:56:37 <timeless> sicking: you aren't compliant because of arrays
18:56:45 <timeless> israelh: yes, but that's useful because it addresses a UC
18:56:48 <timeless> ... but exception order?
18:56:54 <timeless> ... what UCs does it help
18:57:00 <timeless> adrianba: different between not implementing a feature
18:57:04 <timeless> ... and here
18:57:10 <timeless> ... we're saying "multiple things are wrong here"
18:57:17 <Ms2ger> I wonder how much time it would take to implement a consistent order, and how much time has already been wasted on objections
18:57:20 <timeless> ... in the end, the operation isn't going to complete
18:57:27 <timeless> ... i don't think it matters to web developers
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18:57:36 <timeless> ... knowing there are multiple things wrong
18:57:43 <timeless> ... you're told about one, and stop
18:57:47 <timeless> chaals: if we accept your position
18:58:01 <timeless> ... actual order in which you burst into flames, break down, and explode
18:58:18 <timeless> ... we'll get a comment from a web dev explaining why we're ruining his business, his life, and his relationship
18:58:23 <timeless> ... how many of those will we get?
18:58:30 <timeless> sicking: not a hill i will die on
18:58:43 <timeless> sicking: people will do crazy stuff
18:58:50 <timeless> ... things may work in one impl and not another
18:58:56 <timeless> ... fine w/ punting and leaving undefined here
18:58:59 <Ms2ger> Might as well do it now
18:59:04 <timeless> adrianba: maybe we'll get impl experience
18:59:11 <timeless> ... about whether or not this is a problem
18:59:16 <timeless> ... in CR
18:59:29 <timeless> lyle: if we don't get a recommendation of the order, then implementers will never get in sync
18:59:33 <timeless> ... can we get a recommendation list
18:59:44 <timeless> ... and say we'd like people to align to this
18:59:51 <timeless> chaals:  i don't see that as a solution
18:59:56 <timeless> ... you set up an expectation for developers
19:00:06 <timeless> ... then they'll see it was  a sales pitch
19:00:27 <timeless> ... we just tell them don't trigger multiple failures
19:00:35 <timeless> israelh: exceptions are things that you're not going to deal w/ in most cases
19:00:44 <timeless> ... DataErrorException or CloningProblem
19:00:49 <timeless> ... things i'll overcome: errors
19:00:53 <timeless> ... failed to commit to database
19:00:57 <timeless> ... that i need to retry
19:01:04 <timeless> ... the error model is robust enough
19:01:06 <timeless> lyle: i disagre
19:01:12 <timeless> ... if you deal w/ errors in a different order
19:01:17 <jsbell> q+
19:01:22 <timeless> ... how you handle an error is very important to an application
19:01:39 <adrianba> q-
19:01:47 <timeless> lyle: we can chat over lunch
19:01:53 <timeless> israelh: the errors are so different
19:02:43 <arun> Objections were cited about moving the API to Futures
19:03:35 <jsbell> as out of scope for V1 Last Call
19:05:17 <smaug> ArtB: how long lunch you'll have?
19:05:48 <smaug> s/samug/smaug/
19:05:52 <smaug> k
19:06:39 <Zakim> -Ms2ger
19:06:39 <ArtB> ArtB: I will block on starting a CfC for LC of IDL until I get a Go message from Joshua, Israel and Jonas
19:06:43 <Ms2ger> Enjoy lunch
19:06:51 <Ms2ger> s/IDL/IDB/
19:06:54 <ArtB> RRSAgent, make minutes
19:06:54 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2013/04/25-webapps-minutes.html ArtB
19:08:56 <marcosc> zakim, who is here?
19:08:56 <Zakim> On the phone I see Olli_Pettay, Paypal, Marcos
19:08:57 <Zakim> On IRC I see JaeChung, tantek, sicking, garykac, Jin_Peng, arun, davidb, EricU, dgrogan_cloud, jeffh, shepazu, tantek_, jsbell, Travis, acolwell, tlr, JonathanJ, Jungkee, yosuke,
19:08:57 <Zakim> ... TylerB, Bin_Hu, eliot, bryan, darobin, wonsuk, plh, lgombos
19:10:18 <Zakim> -Marcos
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20:10:16 <timeless> present+ Arun_Ranganathan
20:11:26 <lyle> lyle has joined #webapps
20:11:30 <lyle> q?
20:11:39 <jsbell> q-
20:11:47 <Zakim> -Olli_Pettay
20:11:48 <timeless> present+ Gary_Kacmarcik
20:11:54 <timeless> Topic: DOM3 Events - Status Update
20:12:04 <ArtB> https://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/buglist.cgi?product=WebAppsWG&component=DOM3%20Events&resolution=--- -> DOM 3 Events Bugs
20:12:07 <krisk> krisk has joined #webapps
20:12:11 <timeless> Travis: please don't raise any concerns or questions
20:12:16 <timeless> s/->//
20:12:18 <ArtB> http://www.w3.org/2008/webapps/track/products/2 -> Open Issues
20:12:21 <timeless> s/https/-> https/
20:12:28 <timeless> s/->//
20:12:32 <timeless> s/http/-> http/
20:12:37 <Zakim> +[IPcaller]
20:12:39 <timeless> Travis: we did a LC
20:12:43 <ArtB> http://www.w3.org/2008/webapps/wiki/DOM3Events#Last_Call_Comments -> LC Comment Tracking for D3E
20:12:51 <smaug> Zakim, [IPcaller] is Olli_Pettay
20:12:51 <Zakim> +Olli_Pettay; got it
20:12:51 <timeless> ... and we now have implementers working on the last bits
20:13:03 <timeless> ... the new action is the Keyboard events
20:13:08 <timeless> ... mozilla has given us a bunch of bugs
20:13:10 <smaug> Zakim, nick smaug is Olli_Pettay
20:13:10 <Zakim> ok, smaug, I now associate you with Olli_Pettay
20:13:15 <timeless> ... related to specific issues in the spec
20:13:16 <JaeChung> JaeChung has joined #webapps
20:13:22 <timeless> ... hey, you need a key value for a given thing
20:13:28 <timeless> ... we have 25 of these bugs
20:13:29 <ArtB> ( 26 open D3E bugs open ATM)
20:13:35 <timeless> ... garykac and i have reviewed them all
20:13:44 <timeless> ... a lot of them are editorial fixups
20:13:49 <timeless> ... fixing explanatory stuff in the spec
20:14:09 <timeless> ... then we have to work on tests
20:14:15 <timeless> ... we ported tests to github
20:14:21 <timeless> ... we have 20 or so tests
20:14:32 <timeless> ... that look at event model/propagation - supported by 100% of browsers
20:14:38 <timeless> ... what's missing is tests on key combinations
20:14:43 <timeless> ... where we're getting bugs
20:14:58 <timeless> ... our effort in the next several months is work on places where we need to beef up tests in these cases
20:15:03 <timeless> ... from mozilla and hopefully google
20:15:12 <timeless> ... for future requests, we've spun up the UI Events document
20:15:19 <timeless> ... which is taking open requests for new features
20:15:31 <timeless> present+ Jin_Peng
20:15:36 <timeless> Travis: that's the status
20:15:46 <timeless> ... we'll need multiple months to get the spec prose updated
20:15:51 <timeless> ... reissue, a 3rd LC
20:16:00 <timeless> ... we'll try to keep the LC period short (3-4 weeks)
20:16:07 <timeless> ... and work on getting tests identified and approved
20:16:15 <timeless> ... by next TPAC we could propose CR
20:16:17 <smaug> only 3rd last call and the spec is 10+ years old :)
20:16:21 <timeless> ... which i've said for years and years
20:16:30 <timeless> chaals: you can copy that from last year's TPAC
20:16:34 <timeless> ArtB: we can blame shepazu
20:16:43 <timeless> garykac: we talked/worked during lunch
20:16:51 <timeless> ... concerned that the editorial comment come down to
20:16:57 <timeless> ... "this spec is unclear" in a bunch of points
20:17:05 <timeless> ... a lot of that will require adding additional information
20:17:15 <timeless> ... we'd like to have the minutiae encoded in the tests
20:17:27 <timeless> ... and we can't get this spec signed off on w/o this being encoded in the tests
20:17:36 <timeless> ... there's talk that this is blocking IME
20:17:42 <timeless> ... the messy part is DOM keyboard stuff
20:17:52 <timeless> ... a lot of DOM keyboard could be extracted out
20:18:00 <timeless> ... keyboard events will take at least until the end of the year
20:18:22 <timeless> smaug: I will talk to masayuki if he can help with key event tests while implementing that stuff to Gecko
20:18:44 <timeless> chaals: we're beginning to suspect that keyboard events are tricky, after 10 years on it
20:18:55 <timeless> ... i don't have a great position on this (splitting it out)
20:18:58 <timeless> ... dom2 did this
20:19:13 <timeless> garykac: was it a separate doc, or did they put it as dom3 keyboard?
20:19:21 <timeless> chaals: they did it as `something they'll do later`
20:19:24 <timeless> ... now it's `later`
20:19:28 <timeless> ... what are we better off doing
20:19:36 <timeless> ... if we can get the rest of the spec out, w/o key events
20:19:44 <timeless> ... we're not forcing people to do specs
20:19:50 <timeless> ... we do them when it's painful
20:19:58 <timeless> ... keyboard events are clearly painful around the web
20:20:09 <timeless> ... what do people think?
20:20:25 <timeless> Travis: if they've been blocked on D3E for years, a few months isn't a big deal
20:20:37 <timeless> ... keyboard events are in much better place now, than when DOM2 was wrapping up
20:20:43 <timeless> ... whichever path
20:20:50 <timeless> ... is about accelerating the spec
20:20:50 <marcosc> zakim, passcode?
20:20:50 <Zakim> the conference code is 92323 (tel:+1.617.761.6200 sip:zakim@voip.w3.org), marcosc
20:20:53 <timeless> ... we want to get it all done
20:21:07 <Zakim> +[IPcaller]
20:21:10 <timeless> ... i don't think keyboard is blocking any more than the rest
20:21:28 <timeless> glenn_: from my perspective, there's no point in publishing D3E w/o keyboard
20:21:36 <timeless> ... it's the thing missing from DOM events for a long time
20:21:44 <timeless> ... i'd have to object
20:21:54 <timeless> chaals: other takers?
20:22:05 <timeless> ... i lean to not splitting it out
20:22:09 <timeless> ... keep pain in front of us
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20:22:17 <timeless> garykac: i got the impression that people are afraid of the spec
20:22:24 <timeless> ... i got the impression minor changes aren't going in
20:22:32 <timeless> ... i'm fine w/ them staying in as long as we're making progress
20:22:42 <timeless> ... concerned that there's concern it's collapsing under its own weight
20:22:49 <timeless> ... but i think it's getting close
20:22:55 <timeless> ... just dotting i's, crossing t's
20:23:04 <timeless> ... right now, if you implemented, it wouldn't be cross browser
20:23:15 <timeless> ArtB: are you two editing the spec right now?
20:23:19 <timeless> Travis: right now, it's just me
20:23:25 <timeless> ... but i don't see why i couldn't add garykac
20:23:37 <timeless> ArtB: i see 26 bugs
20:23:52 <timeless> Travis: a lot are `just add this keyboard code`
20:24:03 <timeless> garykac: i'm volunteering to edit
20:24:11 <timeless> ... to add keyboard codes, and fix English
20:24:20 <timeless> weinig: Sam Weinig, Apple
20:24:33 <timeless> present+ Sam_Weinig
20:24:44 <timeless> chaals: hearing "we'll be done by some TPAC"
20:24:51 <timeless> garykac: we need to get our testing situation in order
20:24:57 <timeless> ... w/o that, we don't have confidence in order
20:25:34 <timeless> chaals: so, "Testcases are accepted, welcome, and wanted"
20:25:48 <timeless> ArtB: we have Alex Kuang from Microsoft as test facilitator
20:26:01 <timeless> krisk: there's room for more tests
20:26:33 <timeless> garykac: i'd imagine signing up for tests
20:26:43 <timeless> ArtB: does 75% sound fine for coverage?
20:26:44 <krisk> q+
20:26:48 <timeless> garykac: for keyboard, closer to 5%
20:26:57 <timeless> ... other parts probably have test coverage
20:27:14 <timeless> krisk: we set up test facilitators so that editors wouldn't do everything
20:27:24 <krisk> q-
20:27:26 <timeless> Travis: garykac, do you want to replace alex?
20:27:30 <timeless> garykac: that's fine
20:27:44 <timeless> krisk: i love your passion
20:27:56 <israelh> israelh has joined #webapps
20:28:06 <timeless> Topic: Web Components
20:28:13 <timeless> dglazkov: wanted to give a quick update
20:28:15 <timeless> ... since the last
20:28:20 <timeless> ... delta or absolute?
20:28:25 <JaeChung> JaeChung has joined #webapps
20:28:25 <timeless> ... Absolute first
20:28:32 <timeless> ... we wrote an explaner a long time ago
20:28:38 <timeless> ... turned it into a Doc for this WG a while ago
20:28:47 <timeless> ... this turned into 4 specs
20:28:57 <timeless> ... Shadow DOM, XX2, XX3, XX4
20:29:06 <timeless> ... there's a risk of a fifth spec
20:29:17 <ArtB> http://dvcs.w3.org/hg/webcomponents/raw-file/tip/explainer/index.html -> Web Components Explainer/Intro
20:29:24 <timeless> s/->//
20:29:28 <timeless> s/http/-> http/
20:29:53 <timeless> dglazkov: the goal was never to have HTML Templates as its own spec
20:29:56 <timeless> ... it's an extension spec
20:30:02 <timeless> chaals: that would be in Plan 2014
20:30:13 <timeless> darobin: we could just fold it directly into html
20:30:22 <timeless> dglazkov: i'm really happy about that
20:30:28 <timeless> ... it never seemed like a separate feature
20:30:51 <timeless> ... there were several issues about Parsing
20:30:59 <timeless> ... they have been ironed out since our last conversation
20:31:05 <timeless> MikeSmith: what was the resolution on XML parsing?
20:31:12 <timeless> dglazkov: there's graceful fallback mode
20:31:19 <timeless> MikeSmith:  the feature works in xml
20:31:19 <ArtB> -> http://dvcs.w3.org/hg/webcomponents/raw-file/tip/spec/templates/index.html HTML Templates
20:31:20 <timeless> ... cool
20:31:34 <ArtB> -> http://dvcs.w3.org/hg/webcomponents/raw-file/tip/spec/shadow/index.html Shadow DOM
20:31:41 <timeless> dglazkov: next is Shadow DOM
20:31:49 <timeless> ... mozilla has a lot of questions
20:31:51 <timeless> ... that's great
20:31:57 <timeless> ... next is to work w/ CSS WG
20:32:04 <timeless> ... on integration, w/ Selectors
20:32:11 <timeless> ... there's value for other specs too
20:32:16 <timeless> ... scope relative selectors
20:32:30 <timeless> ... - which were vastly underspecified
20:32:33 <MikeSmith> q+ to ask about the <decorator> spec
20:32:36 <timeless> ... recently we had existential questions
20:33:04 <timeless> ... Element, Shadow DOM, Declarative
20:33:12 <timeless> ... I plan to resume work on Shadow DOM - RSN
20:33:17 <timeless> ... Shadow DOM has a nice test suite
20:33:48 <dglazkov> http://www.w3c-test.org/webapps/ShadowDOM/tests/submissions/Google/
20:33:54 <JaeChung> JaeChung has joined #webapps
20:33:57 <timeless> ... as tests were written, we discovered bugs and fixed it
20:34:05 <timeless> ... as the spec is updated, we plan to update the tests too
20:34:14 <timeless> ... we're failing several tests right now
20:34:20 <timeless> sicking: a big concern we have
20:34:35 <timeless> ... is using selectors for insertion points is too damn slow
20:34:39 <timeless> ... does webkit deal w/ it right now?
20:34:46 <timeless> ... and you handle all possible dynamic modifications?
20:34:55 <timeless> dglazkov: yes, and the test suite tests for that
20:35:05 <timeless> ... the problem of combinatorial expansion is prohibitive
20:35:09 <timeless> ... but it tests every selector
20:35:34 <ArtB> -> https://dvcs.w3.org/hg/webcomponents/raw-file/default/spec/custom/index.html Custom Elements
20:35:43 <timeless> ... Custom Elements let you define your own platform objects
20:35:58 <timeless> ... the problem w/ this, is that it operates in a space shared by several other specs, WebIDL, DOM, HTML
20:36:11 <timeless> ... that space is irregular, it involved fixing bugs in all of those specs
20:36:17 <timeless> ... huge thanks to Mozilla, and especially bz
20:36:20 <shepazutu> shepazutu has joined #webapps
20:36:25 <timeless> ... in guiding me, and helping me to understand how to do this
20:36:25 <ArtB> ACTION: barstow update Pubstatus of D3E to reflect Gary's participation in Editing and Testing
20:36:26 <trackbot> Created ACTION-686 - Update Pubstatus of D3E to reflect Gary's participation in Editing and Testing [on Arthur Barstow - due 2013-05-02].
20:36:35 <timeless> ... it's fairly well settled at least for imperative
20:36:47 <timeless> ... Declarative syntax of custom elements is still up in the air
20:36:56 <timeless> ... i don't expect it to be this way for much longer
20:36:58 <timeless> ... we have an idea
20:37:05 <timeless> ... and now that imperative is fairly solid
20:37:22 <timeless> s/HTML, _and_ TC39/
20:37:33 <timeless> s|s/HTML, _and_ TC39/||
20:37:38 <timeless> s/HTML/HTML, _and_ TC39/
20:37:55 <timeless> dglazkov: we've ironed out this for ECMAScript 6
20:38:01 <timeless> chaals: you have this ironed out?
20:38:07 <timeless> dglazkov: yes, you can feed it a Class
20:38:15 <timeless> ... next step, is to issue a draft
20:38:19 <timeless> ArtB: i'll start a CfC
20:38:30 <timeless> dglazkov: tross is not here
20:38:36 <ArtB> ACTION: barstow start a CfC to publish FPWD of Custom Elements
20:38:36 <trackbot> Created ACTION-687 - Start a CfC to publish FPWD of Custom Elements [on Arthur Barstow - due 2013-05-02].
20:38:37 <timeless> ... he contributed to the discussion
20:38:39 <timeless> ... on synchronicity
20:38:54 <ArtB> -> https://dvcs.w3.org/hg/webcomponents/raw-file/tip/spec/imports/index.html HTML Imports
20:38:55 <timeless> ... HTML Imports, another huge patch on html
20:39:13 <timeless> ... which is how custom elements declarative syntax will integrate
20:39:17 <timeless> ... i have an early draft
20:39:25 <timeless> ... it's probably ready to do FPWD
20:39:35 <timeless> ... its lifespan is intertwined w/ Custom Elements
20:39:51 <timeless> ArtB: any objections to FPWD of HTML Imports?
20:39:55 <timeless> MikeSmith: decorator?
20:39:58 <ArtB> ACTION: barstow start CfC for FPWD of HTML Imports
20:39:58 <trackbot> Created ACTION-688 - Start CfC for FPWD of HTML Imports [on Arthur Barstow - due 2013-05-02].
20:40:06 <timeless> dglazkov: yes
20:40:08 <timeless> MikeSmith: there's no spec?
20:40:12 <timeless> dglazkov: yes
20:40:17 <timeless> ... we're walking around a large structure
20:40:27 <timeless> ... i figured we'd start walking, and see what we can see from there
20:40:41 <timeless> ... if you look at the explainer, they're the most hand-wavy part
20:40:52 <timeless> ... web developers were saying wouldn't it be nice
20:41:00 <timeless> ... it's really cool, but very dangerous
20:41:06 <timeless> ... you're running script on selector
20:41:11 <timeless> ... everyone who's done this before
20:41:16 <timeless> ... MS and Mozilla/hixie
20:41:20 <timeless> ... have said it's very dangerous
20:41:26 <timeless> ... if people want it, we might consider it
20:41:29 <timeless> ... i have no plans at this point
20:41:43 <timeless> ArtB: the explainer is a nice document
20:41:49 <timeless> ... do you see a need to update it?
20:41:53 <timeless> dglazkov: it has been updated
20:41:59 <timeless> ... we need to publish another version
20:42:10 <timeless> ... it used to be forward looking
20:42:13 <ArtB> ACTION: barstow start CfC to publish new WD of the Web Components Explainer
20:42:13 <trackbot> Created ACTION-689 - Start CfC to publish new WD of the Web Components Explainer [on Arthur Barstow - due 2013-05-02].
20:42:19 <timeless> ... the process is working
20:42:29 <timeless> hober: thanks for the status update
20:42:37 <timeless> ... wonder if you want to take time to look at open issues
20:42:41 <timeless> ... and maybe get ideas
20:42:59 <timeless> chaals: we have time
20:43:10 <timeless> dglazkov: i'm bug-happy
20:43:14 <timeless> ... i file bugs on my specs
20:43:18 <timeless> ... 186 bugs
20:43:25 <timeless> ... best way to look at it is a tree
20:43:27 <ArtB> -> https://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/buglist.cgi?product=WebAppsWG&component=Component%20Model&resolution=---&list_id=8922 Web Components Bugs
20:43:48 <dglazkov> https://bugs.webkit.org/showdependencytree.cgi?id=52962&hide_resolved=1
20:44:21 <dglazkov> http://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/showdependencytree.cgi?id=14972&hide_resolved=1
20:44:41 <timeless> s|https://bugs.webkit.org/showdependencytree.cgi?id=52962&hide_resolved=1||
20:44:48 <timeless> s/http/-> http/
20:45:11 <timeless> s/=1/=1 Dependency tree for dglazkov 's work/
20:45:21 <timeless> chaals: given 15 minutes
20:45:25 <timeless> ... where would you like input?
20:45:35 <timeless> dglazkov: shadow dom -- document fragment
20:45:40 <timeless> ... callbacks in custom elements
20:45:51 <timeless> ... double checking that we've got it right
20:46:02 <timeless> ... there's another session w/ WebAppSec on isolation/security
20:46:11 <timeless> chaals: anyone have this swapped into their brains?
20:46:12 <timeless> [ Silence ]
20:46:59 <timeless> dglazkov: Custom Elements
20:47:09 <timeless> chaals: take 5 minutes to do a walk through
20:47:16 <timeless> chaals: i'm happy to take a long break
20:47:36 <ArtB> -> https://dvcs.w3.org/hg/webcomponents/raw-file/default/spec/custom/index.html Custom Elements
20:47:48 <timeless> [ dglazkov walks through Custom Elements ]
20:48:03 <timeless> dglazkov: it lets an author provide a native like object
20:48:08 <timeless> ... DOM objects are magical
20:48:12 <timeless> ... they seem to have Constructors
20:48:15 <timeless> ... but you can't subclass
20:48:21 <timeless> ... you can't new things
20:48:29 <timeless> ... it gives you something that seems like a DOM object
20:48:39 <timeless> ... this spec doesn't refer to es6
20:48:50 <timeless> ... the idea is that the construct() internal method is overwritten
20:49:00 <timeless> ... in Registering Custom Elements
20:49:08 <timeless> ... an element definition is registered w/ the document
20:49:14 <timeless> ... and you get back a constructor
20:49:20 <timeless> ... generated for you by the browser
20:49:28 <timeless> ... it hooks the magic into the thing
20:49:34 <timeless> ... you don't have to worry about how it works
20:49:50 <timeless> ... when this object is instantiated by browser (parsing, construct node, adopt node)
20:49:54 <timeless> ... JS isn't run
20:50:01 <timeless> ... as a consolation prize for developers
20:50:09 <timeless> ... we have a ready-callback
20:50:19 <timeless> ... roughly at mutation time
20:50:29 <timeless> ... if i need to initiate things
20:50:33 <timeless> ... i do it during this callback
20:50:43 <timeless> ... we'll add, an insertion-callback and a removal-callback
20:50:55 <timeless> ... to be notified when a document is in/out of the document
20:51:06 <timeless> ... you don't want a Clock to be running when it's outside of the document
20:51:11 <timeless> ... lots of cool things
20:51:16 <timeless> ... making sure we don't break invariants
20:51:20 <timeless> ... of HTML/SVG
20:51:34 <timeless> ... we do this thing where you can instantiate anything that inherits from Element
20:51:51 <timeless> ... but in reality, only things that inherit from HTMLElement/SVGElement
20:51:59 <timeless> ... we actually swizzle- prototypes
20:52:04 <timeless> ... there's a quantum of time
20:52:11 <timeless> ... you define your own element, put it in a tree
20:52:26 <timeless> ... later on, it becomes
20:52:34 <JonathanJ> JonathanJ has joined #webapps
20:52:35 <timeless> ... we ensure that the prototype chain
20:52:40 <timeless> ... the top of the chain doesn't change
20:52:52 <timeless> ... so it never has to modify past the ...
20:53:08 <timeless> ... ElementRegistrationOptions looks suspiciously like a function
20:53:16 <timeless> ... this would be a Class once ES6 arrives
20:53:30 <timeless> ... right now you can pass any object
20:53:54 <timeless> ArtB: you said something about Implementation Status?
20:53:57 <timeless> dglazkov: it's early
20:54:06 <timeless> ... Mozilla has some code, Blink has some code, WebKit has some code
20:54:08 <timeless> ... none is runnable
20:54:33 <timeless> weinig: i'm still curious, years later
20:54:46 <timeless> ... why is it necessary to inherit from existing browser specified objects
20:54:52 <timeless> ... what benefit do you get over composition
20:54:57 <timeless> ... i know we've been over this before
20:55:06 <timeless> ... but i don't think it's been sufficiently explained
20:55:11 <timeless> dglazkov: the basic goal
20:55:22 <timeless> ... Custom Elements explains how DOM Elements are born
20:55:30 <timeless> ... you could build <video>, <audio> elements
20:55:31 <alecf> alecf has joined #webapps
20:55:37 <timeless> ... it doesn't build another layer of the platform
20:55:42 <timeless> ... it tries to explain how it works
20:55:50 <timeless> ... we tried not to add another layer
20:55:55 <timeless> ... just explain a layer
20:56:14 <timeless> weinig: is there a benefit to subclassing <p> ?
20:56:26 <timeless> ... usually subclassing, is for when you want to
20:56:34 <timeless> ... if you override something that's custom
20:56:41 <timeless> ... -- sometimes you can't inherit
20:56:59 <timeless> dglazkov: the key is to inherit from Element
20:57:03 <timeless> ... and we allow that
20:57:09 <timeless> weinig: i think you want to limit yourself
20:57:13 <timeless> dglazkov: why?
20:57:19 <timeless> weinig: the future is big
20:57:25 <timeless> ... take the limited thing, iterate on that
20:57:33 <timeless> ... we don't have to do everything at once
20:57:43 <timeless> dglazkov: i think the spec is fine
20:57:51 <timeless> ... i think we could limit it to HTMLElement
20:57:57 <timeless> weinig: looking for UCs
20:57:57 <JaeChung> JaeChung has joined #webapps
20:58:02 <timeless> ... i know mozilla is doing this
20:58:19 <timeless> ... are there cases where inheriting from <video> makes sense?
20:58:45 <timeless> ... We wanted to solve this
20:58:52 <timeless> ... to make some things not a blocker
20:58:57 <timeless> ... we didn't want to leave us stuck
20:59:13 <timeless> weinig: we could limit to only inheriting to objects speced as inheritable
20:59:21 <timeless> ... start from that direction
20:59:26 <timeless> ... so you could go forward
20:59:35 <timeless> ... and say, now Hixie has added inheritable to X object
20:59:40 <timeless> dglazkov: this is interesting
20:59:45 <timeless> ... this is similar to events
20:59:51 <timeless> ... whether an event stops at shadow dom
20:59:57 <timeless> ... that's an interesting idea
21:00:06 <timeless> weinig: it would reduce the complexity of the spec
21:00:11 <timeless> ... these specs are very dense
21:00:16 <timeless> ... when we started this
21:00:23 <timeless> ... the idea was that XBL2 was very complex
21:00:26 <timeless> ... and we didn't want that
21:00:36 <timeless> dglazkov: Shadow DOM is the guts of XBL2
21:00:41 <timeless> ... i just made sure it was bullet proof
21:00:49 <timeless> ... by the time you tried to address all the bits in XBL2
21:00:54 <timeless> ... it would be larger
21:01:04 <timeless> ... i just made the guts of XBL2 real
21:01:18 <timeless> ... when you make something real -- solidify
21:01:25 <timeless> ... make it more concrete
21:01:33 <timeless> ... Custom Elements is a really small spec
21:01:42 <timeless> ... it's the complexity of explaining the life cycle
21:01:52 <timeless> ... it doesn't matter if it's <hr>, <div>, <button>
21:01:56 <timeless> ... they have the same lifecycle
21:02:01 <timeless> q?
21:02:12 <timeless> ack MikeSmith
21:02:13 <Zakim> MikeSmith, you wanted to ask about the <decorator> spec
21:02:29 <timeless> chaals: he already asked about that
21:02:41 <timeless> ArtB: anything chaals and i can do to help?
21:02:48 <timeless> dglazkov: i'm very happy w/ what you guys have done
21:02:56 <adrianba> adrianba has joined #webapps
21:02:56 <timeless> ArtB: so you don't want us to get involved?
21:03:04 <timeless> ... is everything happening on public-webapps?
21:03:14 <timeless> dglazkov: G+ is writeonly (updateS)
21:03:16 <timeless> s/S/s/
21:03:29 <timeless> ... public-webapps, and some threads on public-style
21:03:31 <hober> q+ to talk about simplifying the shadow dom spec
21:03:45 <timeless> ArtB: thanks
21:03:47 <timeless> chaals: thanks
21:03:49 <timeless> [ Applause ]
21:04:01 <hober> q-
21:04:01 <timeless> q- hober
21:04:57 <timeless> [ Break until 2:30pm ]
21:05:35 <timeless> present+ Robin_Berjon
21:15:00 <ArtB> RRSAgent, make minutes
21:15:00 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2013/04/25-webapps-minutes.html ArtB
21:17:49 <Zakim> -[IPcaller]
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21:38:06 <timeless> Topic: CSP
21:38:16 <bhill2> bhill2 has joined #webapps
21:38:23 <timeless> present+ Daniel_Veditz
21:38:37 <bhill2> I hope the topic is Web Components Security Model, rather than CSP
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21:38:47 <arun> +1
21:38:50 <drogersuk> drogersuk has joined #webapps
21:38:53 <timeless> present+ Brad_Hill
21:39:01 <wseltzer> present+ Wendy_Seltzer
21:39:06 <timeless> dglazkov: welcome security people
21:39:08 <timeless> [ Applause ]
21:39:13 <lyle> lyle has joined #webapps
21:39:15 <timeless> dglazkov: i have a few goodies for you
21:39:18 <timeless> ... and some are baddie
21:39:21 <timeless> s/ie/ies/
21:39:24 <drogersuk> present+ David_Rogers
21:39:30 <timeless> ... i'm the guy trying to drive Web Components
21:39:30 <ArtB> -> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-webapps/2013AprJun/0089.html Daniel Buchner re CSP and Web Components
21:39:32 <abarth> abarth has joined #webapps
21:39:35 <timeless> ... i have some questions
21:39:36 <tanvi> tanvi has joined #webapps
21:39:40 <timeless> ... tactical, and philosophical
21:39:48 <timeless> ... we have this "CSP" thing
21:39:54 <timeless> ... we invented a new syntax for Custom Elements
21:40:02 <timeless> ... the ability to build your own custom DOM elements
21:40:13 <timeless> ... let's go to the explainer
21:40:36 <timeless> ... go to custom elements
21:40:43 <timeless> ... it has a new element
21:40:46 <timeless> ... i call it "<element>"
21:41:01 <timeless> ... one of the things we have there is the ability to have an initialization script in a custom element
21:41:09 <timeless> ... it runs once, when the element is registered
21:41:21 <timeless> ... this lets me add methods to the prototype for this thing built for me
21:41:25 <timeless> ... this is subject to change
21:41:33 <timeless> ... someone pointed out "dude, this is bad"
21:41:37 <timeless> ... i said "i dunno"
21:41:43 <timeless> ... they said "look CSP"
21:41:51 <timeless> ... it's not technically <script>
21:42:00 <timeless> ... and TC39 people convinced me it's a normal script
21:42:02 <ArtB> -> https://dvcs.w3.org/hg/webcomponents/raw-file/tip/explainer/index.html#custom-element-section Custom Element using script example
21:42:19 <timeless> ... does this need to have <script src> to be CSP-ok ?
21:42:26 <timeless> ... the idea is to put styles, script, markup in one place
21:42:35 <timeless> ... you might load it in one place
21:42:41 <timeless> ... separating it out seems bad
21:42:48 <timeless> ... they want their Taco
21:42:56 <timeless> ... folded into one place
21:43:22 <timeless> present+ Adam_Barth
21:43:30 <timeless> barth: when this script executes
21:43:34 <timeless> ... it executes in what context?
21:43:44 <timeless> dglazkov: we experimented during our youth
21:43:49 <timeless> ... i think it will execute in normal context
21:44:03 <timeless> dveditz: is that chunk embedded in the main file?
21:44:08 <timeless> ... loaded in a separate file?
21:44:15 <timeless> dglazkov: could have it both ways
21:44:24 <timeless> dveditz: we're talking about a "script-nonce"
21:44:30 <timeless> ... concern is if your element can do that
21:44:41 <timeless> ... then something that could inject into that page
21:44:47 <timeless> ... script-nonce could be a solution
21:44:50 <timeless> ... maybe not
21:44:57 <timeless> ... if they're loaded externally, are they loaded how?
21:45:01 <timeless> dglazkov: HTML Imports
21:45:09 <timeless> ... they're loaded into a non-executable process
21:45:16 <timeless> dveditz: loaded through a new tag?
21:45:21 <timeless> dglazkov: <link rel>
21:45:26 <timeless> dveditz: so we could invent special rules
21:45:34 <timeless> dglazkov: so we could have that supply a nonce
21:45:47 <timeless> s/dglazkov:/.../
21:46:01 <timeless> ... by default we'll consider that bad, and come up w/ a fix
21:46:08 <timeless> dglazkov: relating to what barth said
21:46:19 <timeless> ... what if this did execute in a separate script context?
21:46:25 <timeless> ... what if you could have dom elements born somewhere else
21:46:31 <timeless> ... to provide some isolation
21:46:37 <timeless> ... i have no idea how this would work
21:46:47 <timeless> ... if you import this using an external other document
21:46:51 <timeless> ... you get their own document
21:47:03 <timeless> ... but they somehow appear as DOM in the main tree
21:47:11 <timeless> ... and of course, there are issues w/ read / style information
21:47:16 <timeless> ... but it's an interesting problem
21:47:25 <timeless> ... there's lots of code to provide `like` and `plus`
21:47:30 <timeless> ... most of that code has bugs
21:47:38 <timeless> bhill2: i agree w/ that concern
21:47:47 <timeless> ... that's one of the reasons i wanted to bring our group over
21:47:58 <timeless> ... those other buttons are implemented w/ <script src>
21:48:09 <timeless> ... the most popular of those widgets provide a single point of failure
21:48:16 <timeless> ... Facebook like/google analytic
21:48:34 <timeless> ... a bug in Facebook Connect nuked a quarter of the Internet for a couple hours
21:48:38 <timeless> ... not sure how to do that either
21:48:44 <timeless> dglazkov: an abstraction is Shadow DOM
21:48:50 <timeless> ... i think that may help
21:48:59 <timeless> ... we may be able to do something really interesting
21:49:04 <jeffh> jeffh has joined #webapps
21:49:06 <timeless> ... i'm excited about solving this problem
21:49:20 <timeless> ... i had discussions w/ Caja
21:49:25 <timeless> chaals: spanish for Bank
21:49:41 <timeless> dglazkov: sounds like a lot of people interested in solving this
21:49:44 <timeless> ... i don't see a path
21:49:53 <timeless> ... i spoke w/ barth and he said give up now
21:49:55 <timeless> barth: yes
21:50:04 <timeless> dglazkov: we have abstractions, it'd be a shame if we didn't use them
21:50:15 <timeless> ... i'd really appreciate if i could meet with you guys later
21:50:19 <timeless> ... have a brainstorm
21:50:21 <JaeChung> JaeChung has joined #webapps
21:50:24 <timeless> ... we don't have much time here-now
21:50:37 <timeless> bhill2: we'd welcome you and others to chat w/ us tomorrow
21:50:39 <timeless> ... we have time
21:50:53 <timeless> dglazkov: i can give you a brief intro, perhaps an hour of your time (tomrrow)
21:51:09 <timeless> ArtB: our meeting ends tomorrow at noon
21:51:18 <timeless> bhill2: we're working on tests in the afternoon
21:51:33 <timeless> Topic: CORS
21:51:38 <timeless> ArtB: interested in a quick status
21:51:52 <timeless> bhill2: we have a reasonably complete test suite for CORS
21:52:03 <timeless> ... odin has issued a call on it
21:52:16 <timeless> ... we're running into issues w/ servers swallowing headers
21:52:25 <timeless> ... we're working on a new status 308
21:52:35 <timeless> ... there's a new RFC, it's being implemented in Firefox
21:52:44 <timeless> ... it may be AT-RISK, not enough implementers
21:52:48 <timeless> ... we're at CR
21:52:56 <timeless> ... time on agenda to go into more detail
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21:53:05 <timeless> ArtB: anything else?
21:53:11 <timeless> ... at 3pm, we have another group
21:53:20 <timeless> wonsuk: we will have a discussion about CSP?
21:53:42 <timeless> s/Topic: CSP/Topic: Web Components Security Model/
21:53:45 <timeless> Topic: CSP
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21:53:52 <timeless> bhill2: we have very few tests
21:54:03 <timeless> ... we have an invited expert who has written some tests, but not in the standard format
21:54:07 <JonathanJ> JonathanJ has joined #webapps
21:54:18 <timeless> ... we don't have a test suite that maps to individual points in the spec
21:54:30 <timeless> ArtB: are you meeting at TPAC?
21:54:45 <timeless> bhill2: that question is next on our agenda after this joint meeting
21:55:43 <timeless> ArtB: thanks for coming
21:55:44 <wseltzer> [WebAppSec leaves]
21:55:46 <ArtB> ArtB: thanks Brad, Adam, Daniel, All
21:56:02 <timeless> s/wseltzer/scribe/
21:56:43 <JonathanJ> rrsagent, draft minutes
21:56:43 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2013/04/25-webapps-minutes.html JonathanJ
21:59:02 <lyle> lyle has joined #webapps
21:59:07 <lyle> q?
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22:14:47 <smaug> does anyone have links to the tpac minutes about IME
22:16:01 <timeless> Topic: XXXX
22:16:13 <timeless> [ Introductions ]
22:17:32 <timeless> s/XXXX/IME with PF/
22:18:43 <lyle> q?
22:18:47 <krisk> present+ krisk
22:18:51 <bryan> present+ Bryan_Sullivan
22:18:56 <eliot> present+ eliot_graff
22:19:00 <lgombos> present+ Laszlo_Gombos
22:19:13 <jcraig> jcraig has joined #webapps
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22:19:26 <timeless> MikeSmith: the Google Chrome team in Japan
22:19:29 <timeless> ... identified UCs
22:19:34 <timeless> ... if you're using Bing/Google Suggest
22:19:45 <timeless> ... where, as you type, the web app is taking your key events to give you some suggestions
22:19:53 <timeless> ... which might be things stored associated w/ your accont
22:19:57 <timeless> s/cont/count/
22:20:00 <adrianba> https://dvcs.w3.org/hg/ime-api/raw-file/default/use-cases/Overview.html#suggest
22:20:03 <timeless> ... terms you've searched before
22:20:20 <timeless> ... which is cool if you are typing w/ a language where you don't have an OS/Platform using an IME
22:20:26 <cyns> cyns has joined #webapps
22:20:28 <timeless> ... what happens often in Desktop and Mobile
22:20:38 <timeless> ... the OS IME will pop up a candidate window of completions
22:20:39 <MarkS_> present+ Mark_Sadecki
22:20:42 <timeless> ... if you've never typed in Japanese
22:20:51 <timeless> ... what you first type into, in a buffer
22:21:02 <timeless> ... sometimes in Roman, some use Hiragana
22:21:17 <timeless> ... then there's a second step to turn things into XXZ
22:21:33 <timeless> ... the problem is that the candidates appear right on top of the page suggestions
22:21:44 <timeless> ... so to see the page suggestions, you need to scroll the page
22:21:45 <dmazzoni> dmazzoni has joined #webapps
22:21:54 <timeless> ... we said "wouldn't it be cool"
22:22:00 <timeless> ... if you could while constructing games
22:22:08 <timeless> ... if you could make your own IME in your app
22:22:15 <timeless> ... and you could tell the OS IME to go away completely
22:22:26 <timeless> ... that second UC ended up to be one that a lot of people don't think is super important
22:22:40 <timeless> ... at the last F2F, mjs said there was no UC for an IME in JS
22:22:48 <timeless> ... but we do have a positioning UC
22:22:55 <timeless> ... i can't speak to Google's priorities
22:23:00 <timeless> ... or schedule
22:23:06 <timeless> Zakim, who is on the phone?
22:23:06 <Zakim> On the phone I see Paypal, Olli_Pettay
22:23:14 <timeless> ... the primary UC is positioning
22:23:39 <timeless> chaals: apart from Chrome, what's the implementation status?
22:23:44 <timeless> MikeSmith:  no one has implemented this
22:23:55 <timeless> ... kochi started this by sending a message for Blink
22:24:01 <timeless> ... saying he intends to implement
22:24:04 <Travis> q+
22:24:07 <timeless> ... and i understand he has a looks-good-to-me
22:24:09 <jcraig> q+ Janina
22:24:16 <jcraig> q+
22:24:18 <timeless> chaals: Yandex, our primary market is Russian
22:24:24 <timeless> ... our users normally use a Russian keyboard
22:24:26 <timeless> ... we have UCs
22:24:35 <timeless> ... we have various IMEs that we build in JS in our various products
22:24:36 <ArtB> q?
22:24:39 <timeless> ... so you can type in on a keyboard
22:24:46 <timeless> ... and we'll give Russian and English suggestions
22:24:51 <timeless> ... so you don't have to switch keyboards
22:24:57 <timeless> ... you can type a string of consontants
22:24:59 <timeless> ... and hit return
22:25:03 <timeless> ... and it will come out
22:25:16 <timeless> ... спасибо
22:25:34 <timeless> ... хорошо
22:25:41 <MikeSmith> q+ to say that we are looking for feature parity with Flash and other runtimes that do have access to interact with OS/platform IMEs
22:25:42 <timeless> Travis: microsoft had a chance to review the document
22:25:44 <Travis> Microsoft proposal: https://dvcs.w3.org/hg/ime-api/raw-file/tip/proposals/IMEProposal.html
22:25:45 <timeless> ... quite a while ago
22:25:50 <timeless> ... and submitted feedback to the list
22:25:51 <MikeSmith> ack Travis
22:25:54 <timeless> ... a quick overview
22:25:57 <timeless> ... it took the ED
22:26:03 <timeless> ... proposed changes
22:26:09 <timeless> ... to have the suggestions window in the right place
22:26:17 <timeless> ... and functionality to retrieve suggestion candidates
22:26:22 <timeless> ... and some optimization suggestions
22:26:28 <timeless> ... and some feedback around ...
22:26:32 <timeless> ack janina
22:26:35 <timeless> Janina: thanks
22:26:42 <timeless> ... to give you a high level overview
22:26:52 <timeless> ... those who are also in HTML
22:27:01 <timeless> ... a number of folks in PF are interested in Rich Text Editing
22:27:06 <timeless> ... Russian, Korean, Chinese, etc.
22:27:09 <timeless> ... we think the UCs
22:27:19 <timeless> ... should take in more UCs than the ones you've laid out
22:27:29 <timeless> ... and i'll ask jcraig from apple to lay out some others
22:27:36 <timeless> ... not everyone in PF thinks they want to work on it
22:27:43 <timeless> ... but there's a significant amount of interest to move forward
22:27:54 <timeless> thank you for the time.
22:28:00 <timeless> s/thank/... thank/
22:28:13 <timeless> MikeSmith: part of this is getting feature parity with other runtimes
22:28:20 <timeless> ... Flash gives you the ability to interact w/ the platform
22:28:22 <timeless> ... IMEs
22:28:26 <timeless> jcraig: James Craig, Apple
22:28:31 <timeless> ... it's good you guys are working on this
22:28:42 <timeless> ... especially setEclusionRectange
22:28:48 <timeless> ... i think MS pointed out
22:28:53 <timeless> ... custom text editing is problematic
22:29:02 <timeless> ... for a lot of reasons beyond Pin-Yin and Romanji
22:29:14 <timeless> ... when you do things in a custom Canvas style text editor
22:29:17 <timeless> ... and you do it in WebGL
22:29:23 <timeless> ... it'll prevent certain things from working
22:29:28 <timeless> ... it'll prevent screen readers from working
22:29:33 <timeless> ... prevent dragon dictate
22:29:46 <timeless> ... -- which has "change this `word` to this `word`"
22:29:52 <timeless> ... if this is something specific to Canvas
22:29:56 <timeless> ... very specific to CJK input methods
22:30:10 <timeless> ... we think this should work along the lines in SetCarat for Canvas
22:30:20 <timeless> ... if it's intended for more than that
22:30:22 <Travis> q+
22:30:24 <timeless> ... then this isn't nearly enough
22:30:27 <timeless> .. we need range link
22:30:30 <MikeSmith> q?
22:30:30 <timeless> s/../.../
22:30:33 <timeless> ... set value for range
22:30:35 <MikeSmith> q-
22:30:40 <timeless> ... figure out where the caret should be
22:30:40 <MikeSmith> ack jcraig
22:30:43 <timeless> ... popup view
22:30:51 <timeless> ... get info about shape, position for suggestions
22:30:58 <timeless> ... if we're considering doing custom rich text editing
22:31:00 <timeless> ... more to be considered
22:31:04 <timeless> ... no way to do it in htlm
22:31:08 <timeless> s/htlm/html/
22:31:13 <timeless> ... there are ways to do it in every platform
22:31:19 <timeless> ... Google Docs has a completely custom view
22:31:27 <timeless> ... there's no way to do what they're doing in content editable
22:31:33 <timeless> ... they have no choice but to do custom views
22:31:40 <MikeSmith> is that Dominic Manzonni?
22:31:45 <timeless> ... we have no choice but to make it accessible to people w/ a variety of needs
22:31:52 <timeless> ... CJK, screen readers, magnification
22:32:05 <timeless> Travis: to point out
22:32:13 <timeless> ... i shouldn't be speaking on behalf of the editors
22:32:18 <jcraig> q+ Dominic
22:32:19 <timeless> ... it doesn't appear the direction they're taking
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22:32:25 <timeless> ... is to support custom rich text editing experiences
22:32:30 <timeless> ... seems like they're scoping that out
22:32:39 <jcraig> q+
22:32:45 <timeless> ... more like supporting what system apis can do w/ regular text entry/text input
22:32:50 <timeless> ... MS has a strong view
22:32:59 <timeless> ... that you shouldn't use Canvas for rich text editing
22:33:07 <timeless> ... we understand it's being done that way, but it's a shame
22:33:16 <timeless> ... we'd rather spend effort to work on contentEditable
22:33:22 <timeless> ack Travis
22:33:25 <timeless> ack do
22:33:41 <timeless> Dominic: not clear if it makes sense to compare ContentEditable w/ Canvas
22:33:44 <timeless> ... i looked at ACE
22:33:47 <timeless> ... Web Mirror
22:33:51 <timeless> ... a bunch of terminal emulators
22:33:55 <timeless> ... a bunch of text editors
22:34:02 <timeless> ... not a single one has focus in the native HTML input control
22:34:03 <lisa> lisa has joined #webapps
22:34:38 <timeless> ... everything uses an offscreen contentEditable
22:34:40 <sicking> sicking has joined #webapps
22:34:44 <sicking> +q
22:34:45 <timeless> ... sometimes an offscreen text area
22:34:57 <timeless> ... to capture typed text, and text pasted from the clipboard
22:35:06 <MikeSmith> fyi for the record, from the associated use-case document: https://dvcs.w3.org/hg/ime-api/raw-file/default/use-cases/Overview.html#editor
22:35:07 <timeless> ... an offscreen contentEditable is the only way to capture rich text
22:35:14 <timeless> ... the method to render is Canvas, SVG, etc.
22:35:20 <timeless> ... some support multiple
22:35:27 <timeless> ... these are widely prevelant
22:35:39 <timeless> ... it's important to support IMEs, accessibility for custom text editor components
22:35:42 <timeless> q?
22:35:45 <timeless> ack jcraig
22:35:47 <MikeSmith> https://dvcs.w3.org/hg/ime-api/raw-file/default/use-cases/Overview.html#custom-ime
22:35:52 <timeless> jcraig: good to know they're phasing out canvas
22:35:58 <timeless> ... that's what i saw in the FPWD
22:36:08 <timeless> ... for a combo box where you need an exclusion rectangle
22:36:12 <timeless> ... we have ARIA rectangles
22:36:18 <timeless> ... if you're using standard markup controls
22:36:20 <timeless> ... with ARIA
22:36:25 <timeless> ... our main concern is
22:36:37 <timeless> ... if we're going for the simple case, it can be covered w/ existing technologies
22:36:45 <timeless> ... if we're going for Custom Text editors, we need much more
22:36:46 <timeless> ack sicking
22:36:56 <timeless> sicking: one of the problems we're trying to tackle as we're going to mobile
22:37:01 <timeless> ... is how we do keyboards in mobile
22:37:08 <timeless> ... they're dramatically different from desktop
22:37:13 <timeless> ... and there's lots of research
22:37:22 <timeless> ... and we want to enable people to build custom keyboards
22:37:30 <timeless> ... the only realistic solution i see is contentEditable
22:37:36 <timeless> ... i don't blame people for not using contentEditable
22:37:39 <timeless> ... it's completely unusable
22:37:47 <timeless> ... even google can't build a decent editor using it
22:37:56 <timeless> ... i'd encourage people that want to enable editing on the web
22:38:05 <timeless> ... help work on contentEditable
22:38:14 <timeless> ... we'd need lots more for Canvas to work
22:38:25 <timeless> ... each browser has a dramatically different implementation for contentEditable
22:38:33 <timeless> ... you have to write 4 different contentEditable implementations
22:38:39 <cyns> +1
22:38:43 <timeless> ... if we specified it, we'd do much more for editing on the web
22:38:45 <MikeSmith> q+ to ask about what CodeMirror, Cloud9, ACE are using
22:38:46 <timeless> ... than Canvas/SVG editing
22:38:49 <timeless> ack MikeSmith
22:38:49 <Zakim> MikeSmith, you wanted to ask about what CodeMirror, Cloud9, ACE are using
22:39:01 <timeless> MikeSmith: i'm ignorant about how it's used in actual editors
22:39:04 <tanvi> tanvi has joined #webapps
22:39:08 <timeless> ... i know Cloud9 started out as BeSpin
22:39:15 <timeless> ... which was Canvas, but now they're doing them the right way
22:39:24 <timeless> ... we can excise Canvas from the  UC document, it's gone, i checked
22:39:29 <timeless> ... there's a Canvas example in the spec
22:39:32 <timeless> ... we can remove that
22:39:38 <timeless> ... i don't think it's necessary anymore
22:39:47 <timeless> ... it was needed 2 years ago
22:39:56 <timeless> ... but are CodeMirror/Cloud9 legitimate?
22:39:57 <ArtB> ACTION: smith ask the IME Editors to remove Canvas examples (e.g. images)
22:39:57 <trackbot> Created ACTION-690 - Ask the IME Editors to remove Canvas examples (e.g. images) [on Michael[tm] Smith - due 2013-05-02].
22:40:01 <timeless> Dominic: CodeMirror and ACE
22:40:05 <timeless> ... they do not use Canvas
22:40:14 <jcraig> q+ to say that the business logic for each web app is different, even the expected editing behavior per app would not be achievable with contenteditable
22:40:20 <timeless> ... what you see visually is not the content of the focused contentEditable
22:40:29 <timeless> ... there's a separate visible contentEditalbe
22:40:34 <timeless> s/lbe/ble/
22:40:38 <timeless> ... if you wrote js
22:40:40 <sicking> q-
22:40:47 <timeless> ... what the user sees is not what's being edited
22:40:52 <timeless> MikeSmith: so they're not accessible?
22:40:57 <timeless> Dominic: they're not
22:41:00 <timeless> MikeSmith: we can't do that
22:41:05 <timeless> ... i wish kochi was here
22:41:10 <timeless> ... i can take that feedback back
22:41:15 <timeless> chaals: so... strikes me
22:41:22 <timeless> ... you have a contentEditable where stuff is going on
22:41:28 <timeless> ... if you can look at that point
22:41:35 <timeless> ... you can do the work that the editor is doing
22:41:40 <timeless> ... when it takes the real interaction
22:41:49 <timeless> ... it strikes me that it would be feasible to make it work
22:41:52 <timeless> ... it might not be pleasant
22:42:04 <timeless> jcraig: prior to my work on A11Y
22:42:07 <timeless> ... i worked on XXXX
22:42:19 <timeless> ... these are usually used for capturing selection, paste, dictation
22:42:30 <timeless> ... there's never any time when the entire document content is in the region
22:42:37 <timeless> ... it's usually an empty region
22:42:47 <timeless> ... the changes aren't reconcilable with the business logic
22:42:54 <timeless> ... being able to translate back in a consistent way
22:43:02 <timeless> chaals: you'd need to replicate the business logic
22:43:06 <timeless> ... double procssing
22:43:06 <timeless> q?
22:43:09 <timeless> ack jcraig
22:43:09 <Zakim> jcraig, you wanted to say that the business logic for each web app is different, even the expected editing behavior per app would not be achievable with contenteditable
22:43:13 <MikeSmith> ACTION: Michael[tm] Smith to take back PFWG feedback to the IME API editor (Kochi) and propose we excise the mentions of DOM-based editor use-case in the use-case document, and the specific mentions of <canvas> in the actual spec
22:43:13 <trackbot> Created ACTION-691 - Smith to take back PFWG feedback to the IME API editor (Kochi) and propose we excise the mentions of DOM-based editor use-case in the use-case document, and the specific mentions of <canvas> in the actual spec [on Michael[tm] Smith - due 2013-05-02].
22:43:31 <timeless> jcraig: keyboard behavior may act differently in a ToC
22:43:34 <timeless> ... if you're on a link
22:43:41 <timeless> ... the business logic is only known by the web app
22:43:48 <timeless> ... it isn't known by contentEditable
22:43:55 <timeless> Dominic: i'm very much in favor of improving contentEditable
22:43:56 <timeless> ... but
22:44:01 <timeless> ... and we need to do that
22:44:06 <cyns> q+
22:44:08 <timeless> ... i've been playing around with it on the side
22:44:14 <JaeChung> JaeChung has joined #webapps
22:44:17 <timeless> ... you can get a fair amount of accessibility at a fair level
22:44:20 <timeless> ... but to me, they seem
22:44:22 <timeless> ... to mention one
22:44:27 <timeless> ... to scare everyone
22:44:32 <timeless> ... you can take a hidden contentEditable
22:44:40 <timeless> ... it's invisible, but you can position it whereever
22:44:46 <jcraig> s/XXXX/a contenteditable wiki server/
22:44:47 <timeless> ... you can get the screen magnifier to follow it everywhere
22:44:53 <timeless> ... we're exploring that
22:44:59 <timeless> ... it's hard to get a short term solution
22:45:06 <timeless> ... for screen readers, to only care about one line of text
22:45:11 <timeless> ... it's possible to keep that line up to date
22:45:17 <timeless> ... but it's really difficult hacks
22:45:27 <timeless> ... we really need these apis
22:45:34 <timeless> ... we may need hundreds of apis
22:45:36 <timeless> ... ---
22:45:41 <timeless> ... any text like editor
22:45:51 <chaals> q+
22:45:52 <timeless> ... for IMEs, a11y, browser extensions
22:45:55 <timeless> ... think about what you could need
22:45:57 <timeless> q?
22:45:57 <MikeSmith> q+ to talk about use cases
22:46:00 <timeless> ack chaals
22:46:03 <timeless> ack cy
22:46:06 <timeless> q+ chaals
22:46:14 <timeless> cyns: curious if a better editor would solve your needs
22:46:15 <chaals> q+
22:46:21 <lyle> q?
22:46:25 <timeless> ack MikeSmith
22:46:25 <Zakim> MikeSmith, you wanted to talk about use cases
22:46:35 <timeless> MikeSmith: i'd like to make a concrete proposal
22:46:39 <timeless> ... we have a UC document
22:46:44 <timeless> ... this document is fairly minimal
22:46:50 <timeless> ... from what i'm hearing
22:46:52 <MikeSmith> https://dvcs.w3.org/hg/ime-api/raw-file/default/use-cases/Overview.html
22:46:53 <jcraig> q+ to mention table editing in contenteditable, and
22:46:55 <timeless> ... we need to remove a couple of UCs
22:46:59 <timeless> ... they aren't going to survive
22:47:02 <timeless> ... they won't get implemented
22:47:08 <timeless> ... the editors who've been working on this
22:47:13 <timeless> ... this is their first experience working in w3c
22:47:23 <timeless> ... their first experience w/ objections and getting implementations
22:47:34 <jcraig> q-
22:47:35 <timeless> ... i need to help them understand it's unlikely to go forward on this
22:48:08 <timeless> MikeSmith: there are 5 UCs
22:48:23 <cyns> my comment was "would a better editor plus and extensibility model for that editor meet your needs?"
22:48:24 <timeless> ... 1 - DOM based editor
22:48:25 <timeless> ... 5 - Web based app providing an IME
22:48:33 <timeless> ... 2 - Suggest
22:48:44 <timeless> ... 3 - to turn off IME (gaming that doesn't require text input)
22:48:54 <timeless> ... 4 - informational, like Flash -- talking to IME
22:49:00 <timeless> MikeSmith: i think we need to remove 1 and 5
22:49:08 <timeless> .... and have spec focus on the middle 3
22:49:15 <timeless> ... can Travis speak to the doc?
22:49:19 <timeless> Travis: there might be
22:49:26 <timeless> ... what you suggests sounds reasonable
22:49:30 <timeless> ... maybe we can add some
22:49:38 <timeless> MikeSmith: and then see what survived in the spec
22:49:50 <timeless> ... we were focused on 5
22:49:52 <Travis> q+
22:49:54 <timeless> ack chaals
22:50:04 <timeless> chaals: we'd have a problem w/ removing 1 and 5
22:50:21 <timeless> ... comment was
22:50:33 <timeless> ... w/ IME spec, the goal is where the text gets dropped into whatever is taking text
22:50:35 <jcraig> q+ to address use case 5
22:50:41 <timeless> ... once you've started entering text, what do you do w/ it then?
22:50:48 <timeless> ... afaict, the IME has no influence there
22:50:57 <timeless> ... not a problem solved/broken, that's after the IME is done
22:51:10 <timeless> ... i understand that concern, it's important for editing APIs/contentEditable
22:51:16 <timeless> ... i don't think it crosses over w/ the IME API itself
22:51:17 <timeless> q?
22:51:27 <timeless> ack Travis
22:51:34 <timeless> Travis: what we've heard from A11y
22:51:40 <timeless> ... this is really good feedback
22:51:45 <timeless> ... it may have landed on the wrong group
22:51:52 <timeless> ... MS is interested in working on contentEditable
22:52:01 <timeless> ... we've sent a couple of messages to the list to generate ideas
22:52:10 <timeless> ... cases that are broken, trying to work up a solution
22:52:12 <timeless> ack jcraig
22:52:12 <Zakim> jcraig, you wanted to address use case 5
22:52:21 <timeless> jcraig: re Travis
22:52:29 <timeless> ... Dominic and rich and ...
22:52:36 <timeless> ... contentEditable provides the equivalent of Wordpad
22:52:53 <timeless> ... not necessarily in a consistent form
22:52:57 <timeless> ... if it catches up
22:53:01 <timeless> ... there will always be a chase
22:53:15 <timeless> ... there will always be a legitimate UC for an engineer to decide contentEditable isn't good enough
22:53:30 <timeless> ... separate from IME, WebApps should consider direct access for text editing
22:53:36 <timeless> ... re overriding system IME
22:53:41 <timeless> ... and letting web app draw out completely
22:53:50 <timeless> ... i'd encourage you to allow it to
22:54:03 <ArtB> -> https://dvcs.w3.org/hg/ime-api/raw-file/default/use-cases/Overview.html#custom-ime UC #5 [custom-ime] Enable a Web application to provide its own IME
22:54:05 <timeless> ... allow the screen reader to access the ime
22:54:11 <timeless> ... indicate particular character
22:54:22 <timeless> ... chaals, i heard you say once a candidate is inserted
22:54:41 <timeless> ... but during an insertion, characters may be inserted/removed as you continue typing
22:54:48 <timeless> ... maybe not in DOM, but in native input
22:54:59 <timeless> chaals: if you take over system ime, you'd probably want to support talking to system ime
22:55:02 <timeless> ... and that's important
22:55:05 <timeless> ... and we should be aware of
22:55:16 <timeless> ... people are going to give them this IME, and they're going to make stuff that's broken and crap
22:55:19 <timeless> ... that's what freedom is for
22:55:43 <timeless> ... i'd encourage you guys to comment on the IME stuff
22:55:48 <timeless> ... file comments, keep talking to us
22:55:55 <timeless> ... about things you see potential concerns
22:56:00 <timeless> ... we aren't very good at A11y
22:56:06 <timeless> ... we put on a good dinner
22:56:11 <timeless> jcraig: thanks for having us here
22:56:25 <timeless> chaals: the editing case, isn't just the IME
22:56:32 <timeless> ... it's a much more constrained set of issues
22:56:35 <timeless> jcraig: the IME is a subset
22:56:41 <timeless> ... of the larger issue
22:56:53 <timeless> Travis: in a lot of editors, we get a temporary text area, where you're doing text input
22:56:57 <timeless> ... and finessing things
22:57:04 <timeless> ... and then that text gets reintegrated
22:57:13 <timeless> ... and that squirreled away text editing system isn't accessible
22:57:29 <timeless> jcraig: not to screen readers, and only to Zoom and IME / dictation, w/ severe hacks
22:57:37 <timeless> chaals: if your custom IME were talking to your system IME
22:57:40 <MikeSmith> q?
22:57:44 <timeless> ... screen readers would be picking it up from the IME?
22:57:51 <timeless> chaals: you'd have to implement this well
22:57:53 <timeless> ... not automatic
22:57:58 <timeless> jcraig: another example
22:58:03 <timeless> ... customized UI, visual UI
22:58:09 <timeless> ... vision impairments
22:58:20 <timeless> ... turn it off completely, that's something the UA should override
22:58:26 <timeless> ... no you can't render you own ime
22:58:37 <timeless> Dominic: i don't want to take the view that we shouldn't be doing this because it's incomplete
22:58:41 <timeless> ... one potential step forward
22:58:52 <timeless> ... if we wanted to get as much through for the IME UC
22:58:57 <jcraig> s/should override/should be able to override/
22:59:40 <timeless> ... take setCurrentRectangle
22:59:46 <jcraig> s/vision impairments/vision impairments or cognitive impairments/
22:59:49 <timeless> ... it's minimally defined to provide the minimal needed for an IME
22:59:56 <timeless> ... let's define this in a more comprehensive way
23:00:00 <timeless> ... to provide info about the caret
23:00:04 <timeless> ... that an a11y agent would need
23:00:08 <timeless> ... we know a11y apis need this
23:00:12 <timeless> ... rather than a rectangle
23:00:22 <timeless> ... we need more when it's a selection
23:00:29 <timeless> ... could we extend the api a bit
23:00:34 <timeless> chaals: we've run out of time
23:00:38 <timeless> ... thank you very much
23:00:46 <timeless> ... we encourage you to keep on providing comments
23:00:58 <timeless> ... i heard a requirement that the user must be able to turn off the app provided IME
23:01:02 <timeless> ... an a11y requirement
23:01:09 <timeless> jcraig: i'd have to look, but that seems likely
23:01:17 <timeless> chaals: we should anticipate
23:01:32 <timeless> giving people freedom to do crazy stuff
23:01:36 <timeless> s/giving/... giving/
23:01:40 <timeless> ... they're likely to create problems
23:01:46 <timeless> ... "if you do this, the world will break"
23:01:51 <timeless> ... "so please don't"
23:01:57 <timeless> ... "here's the things it'd be helpful to avoid"
23:03:56 <ArtB> RRSAgent, make minutes
23:03:56 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2013/04/25-webapps-minutes.html ArtB
23:07:33 <Zakim> +Aaron_Colwell
23:12:05 <timeless> topic: File API
23:12:13 <timeless> arun: Arun, your friendly File API editor
23:12:21 <timeless> ... perhaps some things we should talk about in this meeting
23:12:25 <ArtB> -> http://dev.w3.org/2006/webapi/FileAPI/ File API ED
23:12:26 <timeless> ... what it would take to get File API to LC
23:12:35 <timeless> ... there's also a Mozilla proposal for a File System API
23:12:38 <timeless> ... it went out this morning
23:12:41 <ArtB> -> https://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/buglist.cgi?product=WebAppsWG&component=File%20API&resolution=--- File API Bugs
23:12:43 <timeless> ... you can blame sicking for that
23:12:51 <timeless> ... there are 3 problems w/ the File API
23:13:08 <timeless> ... 1. thinking of the File API w/ new tech, like Futures
23:13:13 <timeless> ... that shouldn't be gating to LC
23:13:19 <timeless> ... we could do that in another draft
23:13:28 <timeless> ... perhaps the File object itself works in the futures API model
23:13:37 <timeless> ... that may be a candidate for another draft
23:13:45 <timeless> ... there are already things shipping with this
23:13:56 <timeless> ... 2. read chaining
23:13:58 <timeless> ... adrianba isn't here
23:14:05 <timeless> ... if you spawn multiple reads off a load event
23:14:13 <timeless> ... the firing of a loadend event can confuse the read
23:14:17 <timeless> ... i'm willing to look at that
23:14:23 <timeless> ... i think it's fairly simple to get it right
23:14:35 <timeless> ... - how to suppress loadend
23:14:38 <JaeChung> JaeChung has joined #webapps
23:14:41 <timeless> ... 3. blob urls are used across the platform
23:14:44 <timeless> ... for everything
23:14:53 <timeless> ... blob url lifetime issues aren't nailed down
23:15:05 <timeless> ... ms impl has slightly different syntax to automatically revoke blob urls
23:15:10 <timeless> ... to simplify developer's code
23:15:21 <timeless> ... so developers don't have to call revoke()
23:15:28 <timeless> ... the current proposal doesn't thrill anyone
23:15:36 <timeless> ... -- those are the three gating factors
23:15:38 <timeless> ... before LC
23:15:46 <timeless> ... questions?
23:15:52 <timeless> [ silence ]
23:15:59 <timeless> sicking: we sent well ahead of time this morning
23:16:02 <timeless> ... an email to the ML
23:16:04 <timeless> [ laughter ]
23:16:11 <timeless> sicking: which may surprise all of ou
23:16:14 <timeless> s/ou/you/
23:16:24 <timeless> ... that we've reconsidered our staunch disapproval of file system apis
23:16:30 <timeless> ... mozilla has always said no
23:16:36 <timeless> ... arguing Indexed DB solves existing UCs
23:16:42 <timeless> ... but others can be solved other ways
23:16:44 <timeless> ... two things
23:16:48 <MarkS> MarkS has joined #webapps
23:16:50 <ArtB> -> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-webapps/2013AprJun/0382.html Mozilla's 25-Apr-2013 File API proposal
23:16:52 <timeless> ... 1. no one has solved these things that indexed db can't solve
23:17:00 <timeless> ... -- two things
23:17:07 <ArtB> s/File API/File system API/
23:17:14 <timeless> ... -- file system url has lots of nice properties
23:17:25 <timeless> ... -- you know which url you can access directly from the file system
23:17:33 <timeless> ... -- file system api supports in place editing
23:17:39 <timeless> ... -- predictable and persistent
23:17:53 <timeless> ... we have support for indexed DB
23:17:58 <timeless> ... but it hasn't gotten traction
23:18:02 <timeless> ... i wrote a blog about file system
23:18:13 <timeless> ... saying what it supports, what you think it does, but actually doesn't
23:18:18 <timeless> ... we got 3 pieces of feedback
23:18:25 <timeless> ... file systems as a concept is nice and understandable thing
23:18:34 <timeless> ... nice for web to have such an api
23:18:38 <timeless> ... easier to use than indexed db
23:18:46 <timeless> ... second: file system urls are nice
23:18:52 <timeless> ... third: we don't really like the current file system
23:18:59 <timeless> ... so we took another file system we already had
23:19:06 <timeless> ... we had discussions w/ people months ago
23:19:13 <timeless> ... which led to a counter proposal from apple
23:19:21 <timeless> ... and some people from mozilla and apple met up
23:19:25 <timeless> ... which led to this proposal
23:19:33 <timeless> ... no one has committed to implementing this proposal
23:19:37 <timeless> ... it's a few hours old
23:19:45 <timeless> ... we're interested in implementing it, if others are interested
23:19:53 <timeless> ... alternatively, we could try to solve these UCs using indexed db
23:19:56 <timeless> ... so far no one has
23:20:02 <timeless> ... interested in hearing what other people are thinking
23:20:05 <timeless> ... in particular apple
23:20:11 <timeless> chaals: welcome to the 21st century
23:20:26 <timeless> Travis: is this virtualized or real?
23:20:39 <timeless> sicking: exactly the feature set that google is exposing to web pages
23:20:43 <timeless> ... it's a sandbox
23:20:56 <timeless> ... we wouldn't recommend any implementations implement on top of a file system
23:21:06 <timeless> ... we're intending to implement on top of a database
23:21:10 <timeless> ... possibly indexed db
23:21:19 <timeless> ... not intended to be mapped onto the underlying file system
23:21:31 <timeless> Zakim, who's on the phone?
23:21:31 <Zakim> On the phone I see Paypal, Olli_Pettay, Aaron_Colwell
23:21:51 <chaals> q+
23:21:58 <timeless> Travis: what's the security boundary of the sandbox?
23:22:03 <timeless> ... who can access it?
23:22:10 <timeless> ... can you get file handles and share them through postMessage?
23:22:20 <timeless> sicking: the intent is it's the same as indexed DB
23:22:28 <timeless> ... each origin has its own set of databases
23:22:36 <timeless> ... each origin has its own file system
23:22:41 <timeless> ... you can get file objects from the file system
23:22:46 <timeless> ... you could postMessage them
23:22:50 <timeless> ... file handle represents an open file
23:22:57 <timeless> ... we haven't proposed that you could pass those
23:23:00 <timeless> ... in theory, it might be possible
23:23:04 <timeless> ... something we could look at
23:23:10 <timeless> ... but not a pillar of this proposal
23:23:11 <timeless> q?
23:23:12 <timeless> ack chaals
23:23:22 <timeless> chaals: you don't allow sharing a real file between an app and another app
23:23:27 <timeless> ... or not?
23:23:34 <timeless> sicking: that's what i'm saying
23:23:38 <timeless> chaals: i take back what i'm saying
23:23:42 <timeless> darobin: in sicking 's defense
23:23:48 <timeless> ... if there's a standardized way of storing content
23:23:57 <timeless> ... it means another app could talk to the UA
23:24:09 <timeless> ... so you could have a system wide way of an app discovering others files
23:24:18 <timeless> chaals: if you had an OS not entirely based on your browser
23:24:26 <timeless> ... most of your apps couldn't share the files w/ the file system api
23:24:34 <timeless> ... that seems like you're losing a lot of the value of a file system
23:24:38 <timeless> ... this is just indexed db?
23:24:41 <timeless> sicking: this is just indexed db
23:24:52 <timeless> ... many ways to envision the sharing between the file system api and the user
23:25:03 <bryan> q+
23:25:11 <timeless> ... in firefox os, we're doing something which lets the web page get access to the user's pictures folder
23:25:19 <timeless> ... and then it's mapped to the backend filesystem
23:25:24 <timeless> ... we have a way of addressing security
23:25:30 <timeless> ... not necessarily a good way
23:25:40 <timeless> ... we have a crappy solution involving signing and unwebby things
23:25:40 <chaals> q+
23:25:44 <timeless> ... it's what google tried to do
23:25:55 <timeless> ... where you guys were trying to back the sandbox file system and had issues
23:26:04 <timeless> EricU: our sandbox file system, the files are backed by real files
23:26:10 <timeless> ... the directories are backed by a database
23:26:14 <timeless> ... the filenames are obfuscated
23:26:25 <timeless> ... flie extensions don't bleed to the file system
23:26:34 <timeless> ... the file system api allows you to get access to photos
23:26:36 <arun> q+
23:26:43 <timeless> ... it's a great way to write web apps to access those things
23:26:51 <timeless> ... but it isn't something you want to expose to the drive by web
23:27:03 <timeless> ... you don't want a web page to write an executable to the photos directory
23:27:07 <timeless> ... we don't have a security solution
23:27:19 <timeless> ... we only allow for apps and extensions, presumably installed w/ informed consent
23:27:20 <timeless> ack bryan
23:27:23 <timeless> bryan: two suggestions
23:27:36 <timeless> ... have you considered, certainly domain-specific, origin-specific
23:27:44 <timeless> ... have you considered making a non-private portion
23:27:48 <timeless> ... for low risk data?
23:27:54 <timeless> ... and let the app decide what it wants to put there
23:28:06 <sicking> q+
23:28:14 <chaals> q+ robin
23:28:15 <timeless> q+ bryan
23:28:23 <timeless> sicking: we're looking at data sharing between apps
23:28:28 <timeless> ... and presumably something between web pages
23:28:34 <timeless> ... i don't think that's limited to file systems
23:28:38 <timeless> ... data sharing between apps
23:28:48 <timeless> ... is an interesting question, but orthogonal
23:28:50 <timeless> ack bryan
23:28:58 <timeless> bryan: the sharing of a file handle between applications
23:29:03 <timeless> ... i want to give this only application
23:29:05 <timeless> sicking: same answer
23:29:11 <timeless> ack chaals
23:29:13 <sicking> q-
23:29:29 <timeless> chaals: take your point about exposing random access files to drive by web
23:29:32 <timeless> ... want to be careful
23:29:35 <timeless> ... but w/ those provisos
23:29:37 <bryan> it would be good to provide an option to create an open/shareable file space, or sharing of file handle with a specific app
23:29:40 <timeless> ... a file system that doesn't let you use files
23:29:46 <timeless> ... of which there are a few deployed around the world
23:29:50 <timeless> ... is kind of missing something
23:29:58 <timeless> sicking: looking forward to your counterproposal
23:30:04 <timeless> chaals: opera sent it 6 years ago
23:30:14 <timeless> sicking: it didn't get traction for a reason
23:30:19 <timeless> chaals: it's like google's proposal
23:30:26 <timeless> ... for some value of trust, you can get at the file system
23:30:34 <timeless> arun: it's different
23:30:37 <timeless> chaals: it's 3 years older
23:30:42 <timeless> q?
23:30:51 <timeless> darobin: designing a file system isn't rocket sciense
23:31:02 <timeless> s/sciense/science/
23:31:07 <timeless> ... it's security/sharing that's the problem
23:31:18 <timeless> ... sharing between apps
23:31:22 <timeless> ... sharing between web sites
23:31:29 <timeless> ... it's the super cookie from hell
23:31:37 <timeless> ... nothing prevents this api from accessing a real file system
23:31:42 <timeless> ... but the default should be virtual
23:31:54 <timeless> ... accessing the real/more should be outside for later
23:32:04 <timeless> chaals: you can build this on top of a real file system
23:32:11 <timeless> darobin: when we played with ideas like this in dap
23:32:15 <timeless> ... the basic api was virtualized
23:32:21 <timeless> ... and another api exposed the real file system
23:32:26 <timeless> ... which would allow whatever
23:32:29 <timeless> ack arun
23:32:36 <timeless> arun: can i go back and talk about file api
23:32:40 <timeless> ... adrianba returned
23:33:22 <timeless> [off the record ]
23:34:51 <darobin> q?
23:35:23 <timeless> arun: the hard work is to find a technical solution for blob-uri lifetime management
23:35:32 <timeless> ... it might take ages
23:35:35 <timeless> ArtB: ages is?
23:35:38 <timeless> arun: not very long
23:35:41 <timeless> sicking: in geological times
23:35:59 <timeless> adrianba: there's a minor issue w/ events that get fired for rechaining
23:36:17 <timeless> ... the lifetime of blogs and revoking them is something we've talked about for a pretty long time
23:36:21 <timeless> ... lots of nuance to it
23:36:32 <timeless> ... part of the issue to resolve is what degree of interop do we need?
23:36:35 <timeless> ... how similar do we have to be
23:36:39 <timeless> ... if we have to be identical
23:36:44 <timeless> ... we probably can't solve it
23:36:51 <timeless> ... people's networks stacks work differently
23:36:58 <timeless> ... did you talk about same origin?
23:37:00 <timeless> arun: no
23:37:13 <timeless> adrianba: one of the properties of a blob uri created through createObjectURL()
23:37:25 <timeless> ... is that you can only dereference it in the same-origin
23:37:30 <timeless> ... there's been a request to relax it
23:37:39 <timeless> ... relying on the fact that the string itself shouldn't be guessable
23:37:48 <timeless> ... it would have to be passed, it wouldn't be predictable
23:37:58 <timeless> ... i'm open to exploring this possibility
23:38:10 <timeless> ... but in discussions we've had today
23:38:18 <timeless> ... we've always parked the discussion wrt origin
23:38:31 <timeless> ... we've always had this property that they had an origin constraint
23:38:42 <timeless> ... relaxing it isn't something i'd want to do lightly
23:38:50 <timeless> ... and i think we've made implementation optimizations
23:38:56 <timeless> ... removing it from the spec is easy
23:39:03 <timeless> ... changing our implementation is much more work
23:39:12 <timeless> ... my fear is we make interop much worse for a period of time
23:39:15 <timeless> ... it might be an IE thing
23:39:24 <timeless> ... but we've been working on it for a while, but that's been in the spec for a long time
23:39:27 <timeless> ... changing it before LC
23:39:32 <timeless> ... hopefully the final LC
23:39:42 <timeless> arun: right now, there's no change made to the origin policy
23:39:53 <timeless> ... i think most UCs can be addressed w/o relaxing that
23:40:03 <timeless> ... so unless someone has a strong reason, i see no reason to change that
23:40:13 <timeless> ... and if that helps get to interop, that's fine
23:40:26 <timeless> sicking: i'm a little split
23:40:28 <timeless> ... on one hand
23:40:38 <timeless> .... i have been convinced it's a silly restriction
23:40:39 <timeless> ... but
23:40:48 <timeless> ... this is essentially adding a new feature
23:40:55 <timeless> ... anytime you add a new feature, it decreases interop
23:41:01 <timeless> ... it's a feature that's harder to test for
23:41:08 <timeless> ... it seems like a feature we can live w/o for v1
23:41:13 <timeless> ... it's a scary thing to add for v2
23:41:17 <timeless> ... since it's relaxing for security
23:41:22 <timeless> ... but it's probably fine
23:41:38 <timeless> ... but if some site announces to the world any blob they generate
23:41:41 <timeless> ... and we relax
23:41:45 <timeless> ... but it's probably fine
23:41:48 <timeless> ... to do for a second version
23:42:14 <timeless> ... on File System
23:42:15 <ArtB> RRSAgent, make minutes
23:42:15 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2013/04/25-webapps-minutes.html ArtB
23:42:18 <timeless> ... mozilla's interested in implementing
23:42:42 <timeless> EricU: i certainly agree with mozilla's arguments on the file system
23:42:48 <chaals> zakim, this meeting spans midnight
23:42:48 <Zakim> I don't understand 'this meeting spans midnight', chaals
23:42:49 <timeless> ... they're familiar since i said them three years ago
23:42:55 <timeless> ... but we've already got one
23:42:59 <timeless> ... it was designed by committee
23:43:02 <timeless> ... we've already got it
23:43:06 <timeless> ... we've already shipped it
23:43:09 <timeless> ... people are using it
23:43:13 <timeless> ... especially in our apps
23:43:13 <RRSAgent> I'm logging. I don't understand 'this call spans midnight', Yves.  Try /msg RRSAgent help
23:43:16 <timeless> ... but also in web pages
23:43:25 <timeless> ... it doesn't use futures
23:43:35 <timeless> ... were i to design it today, it would probably look closer to sicking 's
23:43:40 <timeless> ... locking is very nice
23:43:45 <timeless> ... we don't have locking or flush
23:43:54 <timeless> ... but we didn't want to add more w/o interest in implementing
23:44:03 <timeless> ... we think it's good for the web to have a standard api
23:44:13 <timeless> ... and we want something implemented in all browsers
23:44:17 <chaals> rrsagent, this meeting spans midnight
23:44:18 <timeless> ... but we already implemented one
23:44:26 <timeless> ... if mozilla and others implement
23:44:33 <timeless> ... i'd expect we'll implement
23:44:37 <timeless> ... but we'd be last
23:44:40 <timeless> chaals: no, we're behind you
23:44:50 <timeless> hober: similar thing
23:44:56 <JaeChung> JaeChung has joined #webapps
23:44:57 <timeless> ... you posted to the mailing list a couple of hours ago
23:45:04 <timeless> ... i'll commit to expressing an opinion soon
23:45:11 <timeless> chaals: meetings with futures implemented
23:45:18 <timeless> hober: yes, i'm returning a DOMFuture
23:45:24 <timeless> chaals: arun thinks we're at a wrap
23:45:41 <timeless> ArtB: anyone think we should move everything to futureS?
23:45:44 <timeless> s/S/s/
23:45:48 <timeless> ... i'm not hearing support
23:45:57 <timeless> arun: i'm willing to do a separate draft for Futures
23:46:00 <timeless> ... to not cramp this
23:46:09 <timeless> ArtB: how much more hashing out do you need?
23:46:17 <timeless> arun: rechaining is pretty straightforward
23:46:28 <timeless> ... tricky, but not as hard as bloburi
23:46:36 <timeless> ... bloburi, i'll have to talk more
23:46:41 <timeless> adrianba: we'll have to talk more
23:46:45 <timeless> ArtB: how long?
23:46:51 <timeless> arun: i have a proposal, i'd like to see if it's ok
23:46:57 <timeless> ... if i get buy in, it won't take long
23:47:03 <timeless> ... but that hasn't historically happened
23:47:07 <timeless> ArtB: have you put it to the list?
23:47:11 <timeless> arun: not yet
23:47:39 <timeless> chaals: we've run out of coffee
23:47:59 <chaals> heycam, can you call in for 10 min?
23:48:05 <heycam> yes
23:48:12 <timeless> ... i'd suggest we get heycam in for a update w/ WebIDL
23:48:18 <chaals> zakim, code
23:48:18 <Zakim> I don't understand 'code', chaals
23:48:29 <heycam> Zakim, code?
23:48:29 <Zakim> the conference code is 92323 (tel:+1.617.761.6200 sip:zakim@voip.w3.org), heycam
23:48:47 <timeless> ArtB: wonsuk, can we do XHR and Progress to tomorrow?
23:48:50 <timeless> wonsuk: ok
23:48:57 <timeless> chaals: Progress has been pushed off until tomorrow
23:49:04 <timeless> ... we'll implement it with futures
23:49:31 <Zakim> +[IPcaller]
23:49:34 <heycam> Zakim, [ is me
23:49:34 <Zakim> +heycam; got it
23:49:49 <timeless> Topic: WebIDL
23:49:55 <timeless> chaals: heycam, welcome to webapps
23:49:59 <timeless> RRSAgent, draft minutes
23:49:59 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2013/04/25-webapps-minutes.html timeless
23:50:24 <timeless> heycam: i haven't done much on WebIDL in the last couple of months
23:50:42 <timeless> ... i've got a thousand unread emails in the folder
23:50:50 <timeless> present+ Cameron_McCormack_(heycam)
23:50:58 <timeless> ... i don't think there's much to get v1
23:51:03 <timeless> ... with its issues closed
23:51:05 <Travis> q+
23:51:08 <timeless> ... i split the spec into v1 and v2
23:51:10 <timeless> q- robin
23:51:17 <timeless> q=
23:51:21 <timeless> q=Travis
23:51:27 <timeless> queue=Travis
23:51:35 <timeless> ... v2 was for new features
23:51:47 <timeless> ... i recon it'd only take a few weeks to get v1 ready for republication again
23:51:56 <timeless> ... once i've closed off all the issues
23:52:10 <timeless> chaals: any likelihood of having a couple of weeks to do solid work
23:52:15 <timeless> ... in the next six months
23:52:28 <timeless> heycam: i kind of plan to get back to solving some of these issues starting in a few weeks
23:52:36 <timeless> ... kinda scary after a few months of inaction
23:52:41 <timeless> ... starting say mid-May
23:52:54 <timeless> ... saying this puts more pressure on me
23:52:57 <timeless> chaals: so, in 2 weeks
23:53:00 <timeless> ... you start work
23:53:09 <timeless> ... and end of May, i visit you
23:53:26 <timeless> heycam: i'd like to look at the ML to see what needs to be done
23:53:38 <timeless> ... on the ML, there's been a lot of discussion of broader issues of IDL languages
23:53:43 <timeless> ... those things don't need to be solved immediately
23:53:45 <timeless> ... for v1
23:53:52 <timeless> ... those are conversations i've been ignoring recently
23:54:01 <timeless> ... i think they shouldn't hold up progress on WebIDL
23:54:07 <timeless> ... but in the future, we may look at them
23:54:26 <timeless> chaals: but you're reasonably optimistic that before the end of June that we could have this kicking along and getting to REC
23:54:55 <timeless> ... i'm imagining a LC in late May (early July)
23:55:03 <timeless> s/(early July)//
23:55:11 <timeless> ... and that draft is likely to be pretty solid, and don
23:55:23 <timeless> ... from there, we aren't expecting piles of changes
23:55:30 <timeless> heycam: the spec, what's on TR
23:55:52 <timeless> ... implementations have been improved since it was published
23:56:00 <timeless> ... and have sent feedback
23:56:14 <timeless> ... whether there are other implementations around to help it go past CR
23:56:20 <timeless> ... i imagine a LC and then CR
23:56:30 <timeless> ... i'm wondering if there are enough implementations to progress the spec
23:56:34 <timeless> ... and also test suites
23:56:49 <timeless> chaals: a key question is
23:56:54 <timeless> ... what's an implementation of WebIDL?
23:56:59 <timeless> ... lots of ways you can use it
23:57:07 <timeless> ... you can put it in browsers
23:57:20 <timeless> ... but other kinds of implementations are potential more interesting than having it in a browser
23:57:30 <timeless> heycam: we talked about how to come up w/ a test suite
23:57:43 <timeless> ... a tentative plan was to select features from specifications that are relatively stable
23:57:50 <timeless> ... which covers the features of WebIDL
23:57:58 <timeless> ... and write tests for the WebIDL parts of those
23:58:08 <timeless> ... Node.type and test if it's a number in js
23:58:14 <timeless> ... i'm not sure if any work was done on that
23:58:19 <timeless> ... not sure if tests were written
23:58:27 <timeless> ... i know Travis had his hand up
23:58:29 <chaals> q+ travis
23:58:52 <chaals> ack tra
23:58:52 <timeless> heycam: our goal for getting to PR
23:59:04 <timeless> ... is to demonstrate two interoperable implementations
23:59:11 <timeless> chaals: to convince the director that this works interoperably
23:59:27 <timeless> Travis: to convince the director, we convince him that there are two implementations that meet this
23:59:31 <timeless> ... we need a test suite
23:59:34 <plh> q+
23:59:36 <timeless> ... i as test XX
23:59:41 <timeless> ... compose a test suite
23:59:44 <timeless> ... to demonstrate
23:59:51 <timeless> ... pieces from various specs
23:59:57 <timeless> ... snippets from various specs
00:00:01 <timeless> ... two aspects
00:00:05 <timeless> ... does a UA support webIDL
00:00:12 <chaals> q+ glenn
00:00:12 <timeless> ... and do blocks in specs conform
00:00:21 <timeless> ... the test suite has code to test webidl blocks
00:00:24 <timeless> ... there's a webidl harness
00:00:39 <timeless> ... and there's tests to confirm that valid input produces good output
00:00:49 <timeless> ... and to confirm that invalid input produces bad output
00:00:54 <timeless> ... we don't have tests against browsers
00:01:02 <timeless> ... i unfortunately have made as much progress as you
00:01:06 <timeless> ack plh
00:01:18 <timeless> plh: i thought idlharness.js could prove that all the things in the spec are well implemented in UAs
00:01:20 <timeless> heycam: yes
00:01:24 <timeless> plh: the problem w/ that so far
00:01:30 <timeless> ... is that idlharness isn't complete
00:01:36 <timeless> ... darobin wrote an updated parser for WebIDL
00:01:46 <timeless> ... not sure how much changes by heycam affect that
00:01:57 <timeless> ... but we don't have something that takes the output of the parser to generate tests
00:02:08 <timeless> ... as part of the testing effort mentioned in HTML F2F
00:02:17 <timeless> ... we want to develop infrastructure
00:02:24 <timeless> ... we have an item to finish idlharness
00:02:28 <timeless> ... deadline was before end of year
00:02:48 <timeless> heycam: what sort of things does it test currently?
00:02:58 <timeless> plh: idlharness will take some webidl
00:03:03 <timeless> ... and generate testharness.js
00:03:06 <timeless> ... based on it
00:03:11 <timeless> ... in navigation timing test suite
00:03:16 <timeless> ... you'll see idlharness
00:03:23 <timeless> ... it takes the webidl from navigation timing
00:03:28 <timeless> ... and generates js based on that
00:03:30 <smaug> http://mxr.mozilla.org/mozilla-central/source/dom/imptests/webapps/DOMCore/tests/approved/test_interfaces.html?force=1 seems to use idlharness.js
00:03:50 <timeless> ... to make sure the assumptions we can make based on the webidl
00:04:03 <timeless> heycam: it can't rely on functionality of particular methods
00:04:04 <timeless> plh: i don't know
00:04:22 <timeless> heycam: what coverage do we get from that idl harness?
00:04:30 <timeless> ... that means we don't have to write explicit tests
00:04:37 <timeless> ... it could generate tests for some things
00:04:41 <timeless> ... but for some functionality
00:04:50 <timeless> ... you'd need to do by hand, based on what the methods/properties do
00:05:00 <timeless> ... to see if they convert arguments correctly
00:05:06 <timeless> darobin: we can't cover everything
00:05:12 <timeless> ... it tests a lot of interesting things
00:05:15 <timeless> ... it catches bugs
00:05:20 <timeless> ... there isn't a single implementation that passes
00:05:24 <timeless> ... it uses the updated parser
00:05:26 <chaals> q?
00:05:29 <timeless> ... i gets up to date web idl
00:05:36 <timeless> ... a few things we haven't implemented support for yet
00:05:40 <arun> Zakim, who is on the phone?
00:05:40 <Zakim> On the phone I see Paypal, Olli_Pettay, Aaron_Colwell, heycam
00:05:44 <timeless> ... some things you can't know w/o reaching inside the implementation
00:05:52 <timeless> ... you can test everything that's surfaced
00:06:04 <timeless> heycam: would you want to use the output of this as the basis of the browser test suite?
00:06:05 <timeless> darobin: yes
00:06:09 <timeless> ack glenn_
00:06:14 <timeless> glenn_: in editing of CSS OM
00:06:19 <timeless> ... i created a preprocessor that
00:06:25 <timeless> ... allows taking webidl definitions of apis
00:06:30 <timeless> ... putting them in separate idl files
00:06:37 <timeless> ... i use darobin 's earlier webidl parser
00:06:44 <timeless> ... which validates them according to that syntax
00:06:52 <timeless> ... and inserts them into an html file
00:07:05 <timeless> ... that creates the analis version of the document
00:07:21 <timeless> ... and for tests of CSS OM, we've written tests that test what's required by the webidl
00:07:24 <timeless> ... two things
00:07:35 <timeless> ... 1. verify validity of webidl used in the spec
00:07:46 <timeless> ... 2. verify implementation of things using it
00:07:48 <timeless> heycam: yes
00:08:35 <timeless> s/analis/Anolis/
00:08:40 <Zakim> -Aaron_Colwell
00:08:44 <timeless> chaals: can't we use the validator as an implementation?
00:08:46 <timeless> plh: that's possible
00:08:57 <timeless> chaals: we need to show that this stuff actually works
00:09:02 <timeless> ... and is widely implemented
00:09:15 <timeless> ... if the group looks at this stuff and says it's implemented all over this place, and it works
00:09:23 <timeless> ... then for some definition, it's considered interoperability.
00:09:32 <timeless> ... open question if we let that go as v1
00:09:35 <darobin> [idlharness.js is here: https://github.com/w3c/testharness.js]
00:09:35 <timeless> ... to get it out the door
00:09:40 <timeless> ... and fix bugs we find later
00:10:00 <timeless> s|[idlharness.js is here: https://github.com/w3c/testharness.js]|-> https://github.com/w3c/testharness.js idlharness.js|
00:10:10 <timeless> ArtB: in terms of validators, don't we have two?
00:10:13 <timeless> ... darobin 's and dom's?
00:10:36 <timeless> sicking: we have our own webidl parser
00:10:44 <timeless> Travis: IE has one too
00:10:46 <timeless> krisk: i concur
00:11:10 <timeless> ArtB: can you look at the exit criteria and see if we've met it with these imeplementations
00:11:11 <yosuke_> yosuke_ has joined #webapps
00:11:13 <timeless> plh: two parts
00:11:15 <timeless> ... one is syntax
00:11:18 <timeless> ... one is bindings
00:11:26 <timeless> ... IE+Mozilla can convince "yes we have"
00:11:47 <timeless> ... but you may not convince the Director that you have the ES bindings write
00:11:51 <timeless> s/write/right/
00:12:03 <timeless> Travis: idl harness takes webidl syntax as input
00:12:08 <timeless> ... and the output is testcases
00:12:19 <Zakim> -Olli_Pettay
00:12:19 <timeless> ... does it convert null into "null"
00:12:29 <plh> http://w3c-test.org/webperf/tests/approved/UserTiming/idlharness.html
00:12:32 <darobin> [heycam: here's an example http://w3c-test.org/web-platform-tests/master/XMLHttpRequest/tests/submissions/Ms2ger/interfaces.html]
00:12:57 <Zakim> +[IPcaller]
00:13:20 <smaug> Zakim, [IPcaller] is Olli_Pettay
00:13:20 <Zakim> +Olli_Pettay; got it
00:13:53 <timeless> plh: it generates tests based on webidl
00:13:56 <timeless> ... is it a function
00:14:10 <timeless> sicking: you can't possibly write tests that call when you call X and it expects a string
00:14:25 <timeless> ... that it behaves the same way with "foo", {valueOf:function(){return "foo"}
00:14:32 <timeless> ... those can't be tested automatically
00:14:41 <timeless> plh: you can at least check the signature
00:15:16 <timeless> ArtB: look at Web Storage
00:15:28 <timeless> ... what does Storage.clear() do for a test
00:15:39 <JaeChung> JaeChung has joined #webapps
00:15:41 <timeless> sicking: do you ensure that clear("xxxx") behaves the same as clear() ?
00:16:06 <timeless> ... or removeItem("42") behaves the same as removeItem(41+1)
00:16:32 <timeless> plh: we may have to test some manually
00:16:42 <timeless> ... the goal is to prove this construction is properly implemented
00:16:53 <timeless> sicking: if we can for each webidl construct
00:17:00 <timeless> ... two implementation
00:17:08 <timeless> ... that all properties are present
00:17:18 <timeless> ... but we'd have to hand write coercion testing
00:17:34 <timeless> Travis: i think there will be a small change in the testing plan
00:17:38 <timeless> ... the harness can test some pieces
00:19:33 <timeless> heycam: getAttribute make it easy to write some tests
00:19:41 <timeless> ... but you can't automatically generate
00:19:48 <timeless> ... but the right plan is
00:19:59 <timeless> ... identify testable w/ JS bindings
00:20:09 <timeless> ... identify which things idlharness can cover
00:20:12 <timeless> .. and then write the less
00:20:20 <timeless> chaals: and Travis, you'll get it by TPAC?
00:20:28 <timeless> Travis: i'll coordinate w/ darobin and plh
00:20:41 <timeless> ... we'll work on what additional functionality needs to be put into the harness
00:20:46 <timeless> chaals: and then work and ship it
00:20:58 <timeless> Topic: Charter Discussion
00:21:26 <timeless> s/Topic: Charter Discussion//
00:21:30 <timeless> chaals: thanks heycam
00:21:36 <Zakim> -heycam
00:21:48 <timeless> RRSAgent, make minutes
00:21:48 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2013/04/25-webapps-minutes.html timeless
00:22:17 <timeless> [ Adjourned until tomorrow ]
00:22:18 <ArtB> RRSAgent, make minutes
00:22:18 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2013/04/25-webapps-minutes.html ArtB
00:23:10 <ArtB> zakim, who's here?
00:23:10 <Zakim> On the phone I see Paypal, Olli_Pettay
00:23:11 <Zakim> On IRC I see JaeChung, yosuke_, sicking, shepazu, lyle, JonathanJ, krijnh, jeffh, abarth, wseltzer, adrianba, alecf, krisk, plh, garykac, Dashiva, arun, EricU, jsbell, Travis,
00:23:11 <Zakim> ... acolwell, tlr, Jungkee, yosuke, Bin_Hu, eliot, bryan, darobin, wonsuk
00:23:25 <Zakim> -Paypal
00:23:32 <smaug> it is only 3:23am
00:23:44 <Zakim> -Olli_Pettay
00:23:45 <Zakim> RWC_WAF(WAF2F)12:00PM has ended
00:23:45 <Zakim> Attendees were Olli_Pettay, Ms2ger, Paypal, Marcos, Aaron_Colwell, heycam
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15:14:24 <hallvord_> isn't there a meeting going on? Seems very quiet here..
15:15:41 <jgraham> hallvord_: I think you are in the wrong timezone?
15:16:51 <hallvord_> hm... too early, for once?
15:16:56 <jgraham> (I think it is like 8am there?)
15:19:36 <hallvord_> you are so right. I'll have time for cooking without distractions, then
15:35:13 <tantek> yes, wait about half an hour :)
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15:36:15 <Ms2ger> Will sicking be on time today?
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15:37:03 <tantek> Ms2ger - I for one and am already running late. ETA 09:45-0700
15:37:19 <Ms2ger> Zakim, list
15:37:19 <Zakim> I see WAI_(WCAG2ICT)10:00AM, Team_(comm)15:32Z active
15:37:20 <Zakim> also scheduled at this time are XML_SchemaWG()11:00AM, SW_HCLS(TERM)11:00AM, SW_RDFWG(CHAIRS)11:00AM
15:40:10 <Ms2ger> RRSAgent, pointer
15:40:10 <RRSAgent> See http://www.w3.org/2013/04/25-webapps-irc#T15-40-10
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15:56:17 <ArtB> RRSAgent, bye
15:56:17 <RRSAgent> I see 17 open action items saved in http://www.w3.org/2013/04/25-webapps-actions.rdf :
15:56:17 <RRSAgent> ACTION: barstow work with Chaals on a call for editor help for DOM4 [1]
15:56:17 <RRSAgent>   recorded in http://www.w3.org/2013/04/25-webapps-irc#T16-50-51
15:56:17 <RRSAgent> ACTION: travis resolve last bug for DOM P&S and notify Art so a CfC for LC can be started [2]
15:56:17 <RRSAgent>   recorded in http://www.w3.org/2013/04/25-webapps-irc#T16-52-25
15:56:17 <RRSAgent> ACTION: barstow start a CfC to move Java bindinings for WebIDL to WG Note [3]
15:56:17 <RRSAgent>   recorded in http://www.w3.org/2013/04/25-webapps-irc#T17-00-06
15:56:17 <RRSAgent> ACTION: barstow ask Vincent about next step for PointerLock (e.g. what needs to be done to go LC) [4]
15:56:17 <RRSAgent>   recorded in http://www.w3.org/2013/04/25-webapps-irc#T17-02-00-1
15:56:17 <RRSAgent> ACTION: barstow ask Kinuko about status and plans for Quota Mangement API [5]
15:56:17 <RRSAgent>   recorded in http://www.w3.org/2013/04/25-webapps-irc#T17-03-03
15:56:17 <RRSAgent> ACTION: barstow ask Lachlan if he has some impl data re Selectors API v2 [6]
15:56:17 <RRSAgent>   recorded in http://www.w3.org/2013/04/25-webapps-irc#T17-04-04
15:56:17 <RRSAgent> ACTION: barstow ask Tina to remove the IE column from the SSE implementation report [7]
15:56:17 <RRSAgent>   recorded in http://www.w3.org/2013/04/25-webapps-irc#T17-07-43
15:56:17 <RRSAgent> ACTION: barstow start a CfC for FPWD of UI Events (and make sure it has a Bugzilla component) [8]
15:56:17 <RRSAgent>   recorded in http://www.w3.org/2013/04/25-webapps-irc#T17-29-26
15:56:17 <RRSAgent> ACTION: barstow work with Alex and Chaals re interop data for Web Messaging [9]
15:56:17 <RRSAgent>   recorded in http://www.w3.org/2013/04/25-webapps-irc#T17-51-40
15:56:17 <RRSAgent> ACTION: chaals to make a CfC for joint work with sysapps on webapp manifests [10]
15:56:17 <RRSAgent>   recorded in http://www.w3.org/2013/04/25-webapps-irc#T18-00-58
15:56:17 <RRSAgent> ACTION: eliot update IDB LC comment tracking document to replace "TBD" with something more descriptive [11]
15:56:17 <RRSAgent>   recorded in http://www.w3.org/2013/04/25-webapps-irc#T18-41-35
15:56:17 <RRSAgent> ACTION: barstow update Pubstatus of D3E to reflect Gary's participation in Editing and Testing [12]
15:56:17 <RRSAgent>   recorded in http://www.w3.org/2013/04/25-webapps-irc#T20-36-25-1
15:56:17 <RRSAgent> ACTION: barstow start a CfC to publish FPWD of Custom Elements [13]
15:56:17 <RRSAgent>   recorded in http://www.w3.org/2013/04/25-webapps-irc#T20-38-36
15:56:17 <RRSAgent> ACTION: barstow start CfC for FPWD of HTML Imports [14]
15:56:17 <RRSAgent>   recorded in http://www.w3.org/2013/04/25-webapps-irc#T20-39-58
15:56:17 <RRSAgent> ACTION: barstow start CfC to publish new WD of the Web Components Explainer [15]
15:56:17 <RRSAgent>   recorded in http://www.w3.org/2013/04/25-webapps-irc#T20-42-13
15:56:17 <RRSAgent> ACTION: smith ask the IME Editors to remove Canvas examples (e.g. images) [16]
15:56:17 <RRSAgent>   recorded in http://www.w3.org/2013/04/25-webapps-irc#T22-39-57
15:56:17 <RRSAgent> ACTION: Michael[tm] Smith to take back PFWG feedback to the IME API editor (Kochi) and propose we excise the mentions of DOM-based editor use-case in the use-case document, and the specific mentions of <canvas> in the actual spec [17]
15:56:17 <RRSAgent>   recorded in http://www.w3.org/2013/04/25-webapps-irc#T22-43-13
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