15:26:05 <RRSAgent> RRSAgent has joined #css
15:26:05 <RRSAgent> logging to http://www.w3.org/2013/04/24-css-irc
15:26:09 <glazou> Zakim, this will be Style
15:26:12 <Zakim> ok, glazou; I see Style_CSS FP()12:00PM scheduled to start in 34 minutes
15:26:14 <glazou> RRSAgent, make logs public
15:27:31 <abucur> abucur has joined #css
15:28:49 <SimonSapin> Layout bug. Guess what? It’s because of margin collapsing.
15:42:52 <glazou> TabAtkins_, not sure we'll have time for your extra item ; agenda's pretty full already
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15:53:36 <glazou> ok dbaron
15:53:43 <SimonSapin> dbaron, which client did you end up using?
15:54:42 <Zakim> Style_CSS FP()12:00PM has now started
15:54:48 <Zakim> +??P4
15:54:53 <glazou> Zakim, ??P4 is me
15:54:53 <Zakim> +glazou; got it
15:55:36 <Zakim> +[IPcaller]
15:56:19 <florian> Zakim, [IPcaller] has me
15:56:19 <Zakim> +florian; got it
15:57:26 <Zakim> +plinss
15:58:06 <dael> dael has joined #css
15:58:37 <Zakim> +Krit
15:58:57 <Zakim> +dael
15:59:41 <Zakim> +Stearns
15:59:47 <lmclister> lmclister has joined #css
16:00:02 <Zakim> +SylvaIng
16:00:14 <Zakim> +fantasai
16:00:24 <oyvind> oyvind has joined #css
16:00:31 <Zakim> +[Microsoft]
16:00:49 <MaRakow> MaRakow has joined #CSS
16:01:20 <Zakim> + +93192aaaa
16:01:32 <antonp> Zakim, aaaa is me
16:01:32 <Zakim> +antonp; got it
16:01:33 <MaRakow> zakim, microsoft has me
16:01:34 <Zakim> +MaRakow; got it
16:01:35 <koji> koji has joined #css
16:01:48 <dbaron> SimonSapin, linphonec
16:02:05 <Zakim> +??P40
16:02:05 <smfr> smfr has joined #css
16:02:12 <dbaron> Zakim, ??P40 is dbaron
16:02:12 <Zakim> +dbaron; got it
16:02:15 <dbaron> Zakim, mute dbaron
16:02:15 <Zakim> dbaron should now be muted
16:02:18 <Zakim> +smfr
16:02:24 <Zakim> +[IPcaller.a]
16:02:53 <cabanier> zakim, IPcaller.a is me
16:02:56 <smfr> smfr has changed the topic to: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-style/2013Apr/0556.html
16:02:57 <Zakim> +cabanier; got it
16:03:10 <Zakim> +SimonSapin
16:03:21 <Zakim> +[Microsoft.a]
16:03:38 <arronei> zakim, microsoft has me
16:03:38 <Zakim> +arronei; got it
16:03:53 <dael_> dael_ has joined #css
16:04:37 <Zakim> +Bert
16:05:41 <dbaron> ScribeNick: dbaron
16:06:11 <dbaron> glazou: I included a few extra agenda items already; saw one more from Tab about display:none-ness, but Agenda quite full already.
16:06:19 <dbaron> glazou: Two first things...
16:06:21 <dbaron> Topic: Tokyo
16:06:30 <dbaron> glazou: Need to start collecting agenda for Tokyo, please add items to wiki.
16:06:47 <dbaron> glazou: I think we still need some admin details (e.g., hotels) from jdaggett.  Or maybe I missed them.
16:07:16 <dbaron> glazou: I'll ping jdaggett to get these details.
16:07:21 <dbaron> Topic: Publications
16:07:31 <dbaron> glazou: We have request from fantasai to publish selectors4.
16:07:31 <glazou> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-style/2013Apr/0418.html
16:07:54 <dbaron> fantasai: Tab and I upgraded (?) a whole bunch of things in selectors4.
16:08:04 <dbaron> fantasai: Simon Sapin sent some comments that we still need to address.
16:08:21 <dbaron> SimonSapin: I sent a bunch of feedback, but nothing blocking WD.
16:08:39 <dbaron> arron: We had a discussion about author requirements.  That note needs to go in module template and all specifications, saying author requirements are non-normative.
16:08:46 <dbaron> fantasai: I think they should be normative.
16:08:59 <dbaron> arron: then we need to test them
16:09:06 <dbaron> Zakim, unmute dbaron
16:09:07 <Zakim> dbaron should no longer be muted
16:09:18 <plh> plh has joined #css
16:09:21 <dbaron> arron: In CSS 2.1 we had a note saying author requirements are not normative.
16:09:31 <dbaron> sylvain: ...
16:09:40 <dbaron> arron: In css3 module template we have removed that text
16:09:56 <dbaron> arron: Which means we assume author requirements are now normative and testable.
16:10:21 <Zakim> +[IPcaller.a]
16:10:30 <dbaron> dbaron: I don't think we've ever done it this way.
16:10:38 <dbaron> arron: We have to test all normative requirements.
16:10:42 <koji> zakim, [ipcaller.a] is me
16:10:42 <Zakim> +koji; got it
16:10:48 <glazou> ah hello koji
16:10:49 <JohnJansen> JohnJansen has joined #css
16:10:58 <dbaron> Florian: I think it's fine for author requirements to be normative.
16:11:04 <koji> hi Daniel
16:11:35 <fantasai> dbaron: We have to test all the implementation conforming requirements.
16:11:42 <fantasai> dbaron: We don't have to demonstrate that we have two conforming authors.
16:11:46 <dbaron> dbaron: We have to demonstrate that we have two conforming implementations; don't need to demonstrate 2 conforming authors.
16:11:53 <Zakim> +[Microsoft.aa]
16:12:01 <dbaron> arron: How do you prove implementable by authors?
16:12:05 <dbaron> dbaron: Not part of the process.
16:12:12 <JohnJansen> Zakim, Microsoft has JohnJansen
16:12:12 <Zakim> +JohnJansen; got it
16:12:21 <dbaron> dbaron: I'm strongly opposed to this text in 2.1 and didn't know it was there.
16:12:23 <dbaron> arron: in 3.1
16:12:28 <dbaron> section
16:12:32 <dbaron> Florian: This undermines validators.
16:12:57 <dbaron> arron: authors free to do what they want with documents...
16:13:14 <dbaron> ...
16:13:22 <dbaron> dbaron: If no author requirements are normative then we have no definition of a conforming document
16:13:42 <Zakim> -[IPcaller]
16:13:50 <dbaron> arron: ... demonstrate?
16:14:00 <dbaron> dbaron: I think we want 2 conforming implementations, ... though somebody should read process.
16:14:08 <florian> I just dropped. I'll be right back
16:14:10 <dbaron> peter: We have to meet the exit criteria we put in our own specs.
16:14:15 <dbaron> peter: We only talk about implementations.
16:14:20 <Zakim> +[IPcaller]
16:14:27 <dbaron> arron: I don't want to push specs out that don't have this.
16:14:39 <dbaron> arron: We need to define this more clearly, maybe in testing area.
16:15:09 <oyvind> CSS 2.1 section 3.1 just says something about "recommendations", and that text applies to both authors and UAs
16:15:11 <dbaron> dbaron: I wasn't sure why combinators inside :not() and :matches() was moved into full profile
16:15:16 <fantasai> foo :matches(bar baz)
16:15:31 <fantasai> <foo><bar><baz/></bar></foo>
16:15:39 <fantasai> <bar><foo><baz/></foo></bar>
16:15:56 <dbaron> fantasai: This allows branching selector path.
16:16:08 <dbaron> fantasai: I'm fine to include it if that's what people want.
16:16:28 <dbaron> dbaron: Already have to do that for mixes of child and descendant combinators
16:16:40 <dbaron> body > div p
16:17:18 <dbaron> dbaron: It's slow but I don't think it has totally different implementation characteristics.
16:17:35 <dbaron> dbaron: Maybe put an issue in the spec saying we're not sure and people will comment
16:17:37 <dbaron> fantasai: sounds ok
16:17:58 <dbaron> RESOLVED: publish WD of selectors4
16:18:10 <dbaron> Topic: Grid Template Layout
16:18:18 <dbaron> glazou: Bert asked to publish WD of grid template layout
16:18:26 <dbaron> Bert: last WD more than a year old
16:18:38 <dbaron> Bert: I've integrated discussion of regions, more integrated with content, page templates, and regions
16:18:43 <dbaron> Bert: I think it's quite nice now.
16:18:57 <dbaron> Bert: Not yet LC, too many details that can go either way; in some cases doesn't matter.
16:19:07 <dbaron> Bert: But I think it's time for a new WD.  Lots of things to do with page layout at the moment.
16:19:12 <dbaron> Bert: Would be nice to have something new in that area.
16:19:38 <dbaron> glazou: I have a problem with this document.  Because it's a challenging spec for the grid layout that is implemented by browser vendors, and I don't see browsers expressing interest in this one.
16:19:53 <dbaron> glazou: I'd like to hear from browser vendors on this call:  are you interested in this spec, the different syntax it proposes for grid?
16:20:00 <dbaron> glazou: because apparently nobody's implementing it
16:20:11 <BradK> BradK has joined #CSS
16:20:15 <dbaron> Bert: But the existence of prototypes outside of browsers in indication people want it.
16:20:24 <dbaron> glazou: One from César, quite old.
16:20:31 <dbaron> Bert: César made two, and there are two others.
16:20:37 <dbaron> glazou: Polyfill or native implementation?
16:20:41 <dbaron> Bert: 3 JS, one native
16:20:59 <dbaron> glazou: I'd like at least one week to review the document.
16:21:06 <Zakim> +BradK
16:21:07 <BradK> Sorry I'm late
16:21:14 <dbaron> glazou: It seems to me another content sink for stuff that should probably go elsewhere.  What do other people think?
16:21:39 <dbaron> dbaron: I haven't had a chance to follow it.
16:21:42 <dbaron> ?: same here
16:21:51 <florian> s/?/florian/
16:22:17 <dbaron> fantasai: Haven't looked at most recent WD, but found that while I don't think Bert's module would go to LC as such, has been able to pull together ideas from different specs and define how they integrate.  Reasonably useful thing.
16:22:25 <dbaron> glazou: Seems we need some time to review the document.
16:22:30 <dbaron> glazou: Bert, is 1 week for review ok?
16:22:32 <BradK> Are we talking about marquee?
16:22:46 <stearns> BradK: http://dev.w3.org/csswg/css-template/
16:22:47 <dbaron> Bert: 1 or 2 weeks is fine.  As I said, a year old.
16:22:55 <dbaron> glazou: ok, will revisit in 1 or 2 weeks
16:23:01 <dbaron> ACTION all: review grid template layout
16:23:01 <trackbot> Error finding 'all'. You can review and register nicknames at <http://www.w3.org/Style/CSS/Tracker/users>.
16:23:20 <dbaron> Topic: color-correction into color-interpolation
16:23:25 <dbaron> dbaron: Didn't we do this last week?
16:23:25 <stearns> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-style/2013Apr/0096.html
16:23:36 <dbaron> dirk: I didn't put on agenda; discussion continuing on mailing list.
16:23:41 <dbaron> Topic: column-fill and column-overflow
16:23:42 <glazou> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-style/2013Mar/0042.html
16:24:29 <dbaron> dbaron: Don't think it needs telecon time now.
16:24:31 <glazou> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-style/2013Apr/0181.html
16:24:33 <dbaron> Topic: flow-into
16:24:36 <stearns> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-style/2013Apr/0471.html
16:24:55 <dbaron> Stearns: Has been on agenda for a few weeks, I just went ahead and did it.  Second message describes change to region spec.
16:25:07 <dbaron> Stearns: Don't know if we need time on the call unless people want to comment.
16:25:17 <dbaron> Bert: Initial reaction: dangerous, sounds like XSLT territory redoing the tree.
16:25:23 <dbaron> Bert: Want to see examples of what it's useful for.
16:25:32 <dbaron> Bert: And want to try doing those things different ways without destroying the tree.
16:25:42 <dbaron> glazou: Needed at least for selectors not being able to target text nodes.
16:25:51 <dbaron> glazou: So using combinator with a star not enough
16:26:04 <dbaron> Bert: Have example in css3 layout spec
16:26:08 <hober> belated regrets; at the html wg f2f
16:26:13 <glazou> thanks hober
16:26:19 <dbaron> Bert: Have example ...
16:26:28 <dbaron> Bert: worried it's not quite what we want
16:26:45 <glazou> hober, other CSS WG members with you there ?
16:26:45 <dbaron> Bert: ... part of the content, not all of the content ....
16:26:53 <dbaron> Stearns: Bert, would definitely like to see use case
16:27:06 <dbaron> Stearns: Initially came about because Rossen was asking for it, maybe Rossen can post use cases
16:27:23 <dbaron> Stearns: In general, going back into history of regions, this is something that was discussed very early on
16:27:31 <dbaron> Stearns: alexmog had action to figure out way of doing this correctly
16:27:36 <hober> glazou: tantek isn't here yet, but i assume he will be
16:27:40 <glazou> ok hober
16:27:44 <dbaron> Stearns: earlier had decided to push to level 4, decided to pull back to current level
16:27:52 <dbaron> Bert: what happens to inheritance if element removed
16:28:03 <dbaron> Stearns: as with all named flow mechanisms not modifying dom tree
16:28:22 <dbaron> Stearns: All we're doing is taking the boxes in element's content area and moving them to named dflow and displaying in region chainn
16:28:54 <dbaron> Bert: maybe we should not discuss here, might take too much time.  But all kinds of difficult cases.  Though maybe I don't understand what you want... not sure if there's really a problem.
16:29:02 <dbaron> Stearns: would like to see difficult cases on list
16:29:05 <dbaron> glazou: so, move to mailing list
16:29:09 <glazou> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-style/2013Apr/0331.html
16:29:10 <dbaron> Topic: justification for symbols
16:29:17 <dbaron> Topic: Recommended justification for symbols
16:29:26 <dbaron> Koji: you say I should make a recommendation?
16:29:42 <dbaron> fantasai: If nobody else has an opinion I think Koji and I can handle it offline
16:29:48 <dbaron> Topic: Text decoration issues
16:29:48 <Zakim> -cabanier
16:30:00 <glazou> http://dev.w3.org/csswg/css-text-decor-3/issues-lc-2013#issue-6
16:30:28 <dbaron> fantasai: first is from dbaron, about droping text-underline-position: alphabetic
16:30:51 <glazou> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-style/2013Mar/0529.html
16:31:20 <dbaron> fantasai: your issue is that alphabetic is requesting to use font data except when it's incorrect
16:31:35 <fantasai> dbaron: My big problem with this is that I don't know how it would really be implemented
16:31:50 <dbaron> fantasai: I'd like to hear from jdaggett.
16:32:05 <dbaron> glazou: fantasai, can you take action to ping jdaggett
16:32:09 <dbaron> fantasai: did ping, haven't heard back
16:32:11 <fantasai> fantasai^: He knows a lot about font metrics and what's an appropriate way to use them
16:32:25 <dbaron> glazou: maybe handle off call?
16:32:35 <dbaron> fantasai: does anyone else have feedback on issue?
16:32:42 <glazou> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-style/2013Mar/0526.html
16:32:42 <dbaron> glazou: ok, issue 8
16:32:58 <dbaron> fantasai: dbaron pointed out z-order is opposite of what's in 2.1
16:33:08 <dbaron> fantasai: changed underlines/overlines to draw over text
16:33:14 <dbaron> fantasai: I think this is an intentional change
16:33:21 <fantasai> s/intentional/unintentional/
16:33:25 <dbaron> fantasai: Anybody have any idea why it might have been intentional?
16:33:42 <dbaron> fantasai: OK, I'll chnge that back to match 2.1
16:33:49 <dbaron> RESOLVED: text decoration z-ordering back to match 2.1
16:33:55 <dbaron> glazou: anything more to talk about?
16:34:02 <glazou> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-style/2013Apr/0546.html
16:34:03 <dbaron> fantasai: need to just sit down and clarify stuff
16:34:09 <dbaron> Topic: fixed positioning on content empty pages
16:34:29 <dbaron> SimonSapin: So there's 1 sentence in CSS21 that says fixed pos is repeated on every page in paged media.
16:34:42 <dbaron> SimonSapin: Do we want to repeat in empty pages that are generated by page-break: left/right?
16:34:52 <dbaron> SimonSapin: And do such pages match the :blank selector?
16:35:11 <dbaron> fantasai: Only pages that should match :blank are ones that are generated by forced breaks
16:35:20 <dbaron> fantasai: IF you have a very tall empty block and it prints across 2 pages...
16:35:28 <dbaron> fantasai: Don't think it makes sense for that to match blank.
16:35:33 <dbaron> fantasai: might have a background
16:35:49 <dbaron> SimonSapin: so we should tweak dfn of :blank or content-empty?
16:35:50 <BradK> sgalineau: Text shadow above the underline might look weird.
16:36:13 <dbaron> fantasai: What would be more useful?
16:36:25 <dbaron> fantasai: I think only forced break pages matching :blank would be more useful.
16:36:31 <sgalineau> bradk: yeah. I can't recall the reasoning but I thought we discussed the paint order of these when we debated text-shadow. could be wrong...
16:36:49 <dbaron> oaue;
16:36:51 <dbaron> hold
16:37:04 <dbaron> please repeat
16:37:06 <dbaron> (I'm muted)
16:37:28 <dbaron> SimonSapin: 2 options.  (1) repeat fixed position boxes on every page including pages generated by forced breaks
16:37:53 <dbaron> SimonSapin: (2) not display ???? boxes on pages that are supposed to be blank
16:37:55 <glazou> hold on left the call
16:38:04 <fantasai> s/????/fixed/
16:38:09 <glazou> ARGL my sip down
16:38:13 <dbaron> SimonSapin: And in any case tweak the definition of :blank and content-empty so it's what we want.
16:38:14 <glazou> plinss, can you take over please ?
16:38:21 <dbaron> fantasai: I have no opinion on this.
16:38:30 <dbaron> fantasai: Maybe ask murakami-san
16:38:41 <dbaron> I think break: right/left is kinda like forced break,s btw.
16:38:57 <dbaron> Bert: I don't know what :blank should match, but I do think fixed elements should repeat on all pages.
16:39:08 <dbaron> Bert: Should be page number there but no fixed content. (???)
16:39:11 <glazou> plinss, SIP and phone all down, sorry, cannot rejoin right now
16:39:14 <dbaron> Bert, is that what you said?
16:39:35 <dbaron> s/Should/I don't see why there should/
16:39:47 <dbaron> SimonSapin: That's what I prefer too.
16:39:59 <dbaron> SimonSapin: In that case we need to make sure :blank still applies on such pages.
16:40:06 <dbaron> SimonSapin: I can take an action to edit that in the spec.
16:40:26 <Zakim> + +33.9.50.89.aabb
16:40:29 <dbaron> ACTION Sapin: Clarify definition of :blank selector in relation to fixed positioning
16:40:29 <trackbot> Created ACTION-557 - Clarify definition of :blank selector in relation to fixed positioning [on Simon Sapin - due 2013-05-01].
16:40:42 <dbaron> Zakim, aabb is glazou
16:40:42 <Zakim> +glazou; got it
16:40:57 <fantasai> zakim, who is here?
16:40:57 <Zakim> On the phone I see glazou, plinss, Krit, dael, Stearns, SylvaIng, fantasai, [Microsoft], antonp, dbaron (muted), smfr, SimonSapin, [Microsoft.a], Bert, koji, [Microsoft.aa],
16:41:02 <Zakim> ... [IPcaller], BradK, glazou.a
16:41:02 <Zakim> [Microsoft] has JohnJansen
16:41:02 <Zakim> On IRC I see BradK, JohnJansen, plh, dael, smfr, koji, MaRakow, oyvind, lmclister, florian, antonp, abucur, RRSAgent, Zakim, glazou, SteveZ, sgalineau, rhauck1, shepazu, dbaron,
16:41:02 <Zakim> ... krit, danielfilho|w, logbot, teoli, SimonSapin, alexmog, liam, ojan
16:41:20 <dbaron> glazou: Not sure if there's something to decide about unicode caseless matching.
16:41:26 <glazou> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-style/2013Apr/0553.html
16:41:28 <dbaron> glazou: Message from Addison Phillips about unicode caseless matching.
16:41:34 <dbaron> glazou: Want to make sure all members have seen it.
16:41:52 <dbaron> glazou: we finally got an answer to our questions
16:42:04 <Ms2ger> Ms2ger has joined #css
16:42:06 <dbaron> glazou: jdaggett not on call, not sure discuss now, but will probably have to discuss to make sure we're in sync
16:42:13 <dbaron> glazou: But if someone has a comment...
16:42:32 <dbaron> Bert: If it's indeed safe to ignore normalization.  Question of seeing what different OSes do.  Sounds dangerous to me.
16:42:41 <SimonSapin> RESOLVED: Repeat position:fixed on all pages, including blank pages genarated by forced page breaks. Tweak the definition of :blank to match.
16:42:48 <israelh> israelh has joined #css
16:42:50 <dbaron> Topic: Alignment
16:42:52 <glazou> https://lists.w3.org/Archives/Member/w3c-css-wg/2013AprJun/0069.html
16:43:15 <dbaron> fantasai: We ran out of other topics?  Is Tab on the call?
16:43:39 <fantasai> http://dev.w3.org/csswg/css-align-3/
16:43:46 <dbaron> fantasai: So we changed a bunch of things in this spec.
16:43:49 <fantasai> http://dev.w3.org/csswg/css-align-3/#alignment-values
16:43:54 <dbaron> fantasai: Pulled out values and defined them in a common seciton.
16:44:01 <dbaron> fantasai: Two new values, self-start and self-end
16:44:19 <dbaron> fantasai: Came across the issue of whether start and end are determined w.r.t. container or the box's own writing mode
16:44:47 <dbaron> fantasai: overflow handling in CSS 2.1 handled by looking at cb direction, so decided cb direction should be default interpretation of start and end
16:44:58 <dbaron> fantasai: But sometimes want to align by box's own writing mode, so added self-start and self-end.
16:45:24 <dbaron> fantasai: An example would be grid, column of stuff with most l-to-r, some r-to-l, want to align all to start-edge (all left).
16:45:36 <dbaron> fantasai: Some specific cases might want based on writing mode, self-start and self-end address that.
16:45:41 <dbaron> fantasai: Second, we defined baseline alignment.
16:45:56 <dbaron> fantasai: Ton of text added to do this.  We think it's right, but probably will be a while before it's all right.
16:46:15 <dbaron> fantasai: In old draft there was a 'true' keyword that was optional.
16:46:28 <dbaron> fantasai: In new draft we have 'true' and 'face' (?) keywords.
16:46:44 <dbaron> fantasai: And if neither is used, default depends on layout mode.
16:46:45 <dbaron> s/face/safe/
16:47:05 <dbaron> fantasai: Document-centric layout modes, defaults to 'true'.  For design-centric modes, defaults to 'true'.
16:47:18 <dbaron> fantasai: Next, can combine content distribution keyword e.g. space-around with position keyword e.g. start/end
16:47:27 <dbaron> fantasai: Says what to do if you only have 1 thing.
16:47:52 <dbaron> fantasai: Added another content distribution keyword: space-evenly (like border-image) added to space-between and space-around (in flexbox).
16:48:03 <dbaron> fantasai: That came up in discussion we had about flexbox.
16:48:22 <dbaron> fantasai: We'd only added 2 for flexbox, but third might be useful for grid.
16:48:31 <dbaron> fantasai: E.g., if stuff on sides is not grid.
16:48:53 <dbaron> fantasai: Worked a bit on defining details of how things align.
16:49:03 <fantasai> http://dev.w3.org/csswg/css-align-3/#content-distribution
16:49:04 <dbaron> fantasai: Details of how justify-content... <link
16:49:21 <dbaron> fantasai: section talks about block containers, (reads)
16:49:43 <dbaron> fantasai: exlpains how vertical-align continues to work on table cells by default
16:49:48 <dbaron> fantasai: we also talked about self alignment
16:49:55 <dbaron> fantasai, tricky bit was abspos and replaced elements
16:49:57 <fantasai> http://dev.w3.org/csswg/css-align-3/#justify-self-property
16:50:17 <dbaron> fantasai: we have stretch keyword... block stretches by default if non-replaced
16:50:27 <dbaron> fantasai: but if replaced or has width, replaced by start
16:50:35 <dbaron> fantasai: so stretch and start are equivalent on block level boxes
16:50:59 <dbaron> fantasai: for abs pos we envision algimnent ... take containing block, offsets reduce cb, and within box normally behavior is stretch if you have auto w/h
16:51:11 <dbaron> fantasai: but if you take some other keywords but want to make it easy to center abs pos as well
16:51:18 <dbaron> This doesn't sound 2.1-compatible to me.
16:51:37 <dbaron> fantasai: If alignment property is not auto or stretch then you shrink-wrap and align with it instead of trying to fill whole box.
16:51:40 <dbaron> fantasai: ???? don't do that.
16:51:47 <dbaron> fantasai: So replace stretch keyword is equivalent to start.
16:51:56 <dbaron> fantasai: Trying to figure out if way to allow replaced elements to stretch.
16:52:13 <dbaron> fantasai: We added to justify property the ability to
16:52:27 <fantasai> http://dev.w3.org/csswg/css-align-3/#justify-items
16:52:29 <dbaron> fantasai: ... justify-items property
16:52:38 <dbaron> fantasai: we wanted to handle center elements and the html align property somehow
16:52:56 <dbaron> fantasai: and came up with using justify-items property and adding a special keyword, and if that keyword is present
16:53:13 <dbaron> fantasai: auto value of justify-items checks parent and if parent includes legacy keyword copies value to self
16:53:25 <dbaron> fantasai: Was best we could come up with in terms of behavior that would handle that.
16:53:28 <dbaron> What about my old proposal?
16:53:45 <dbaron> fantasai: If anybody has better idea about how to handle html stuff, open to better ideas?
16:53:57 <dbaron> fantasai: And do we want it to be called legacy?  legacy of 1990, legacy of parent?
16:54:04 <dbaron> fantasai: only allowed combination with left/right/center
16:54:20 <dbaron> fantasai: potentially useful to authors to use this thing, in which case do we want to allow combination with other kewyords?
16:54:28 <dbaron> fantasai: That's the overview of what we've done.
16:54:36 <dbaron> fantasai: It's going to need another few rounds of review edit
16:55:00 <dbaron> fantasai: Want to publish WD at some point but not high priority if people want time to look at things, week, 2 months, whatever?
16:55:08 <dbaron> I want some time to look at things
16:55:16 <dbaron> Is there a written summary of what you just described somewhere?
16:55:39 <fantasai> I can create one today
16:55:40 <dbaron> fantasai: No written summary, but could create one today.
16:56:13 <dbaron> Bert: Had three remarks.
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16:56:22 <dbaron> Bert: So far we've used center for horiz and middle for vertical
16:56:28 <dbaron> Bert: This only uses center, maybe should use middle
16:56:43 <dbaron> fantasai: Actually we don't have that distinction, if you look at bg position uses center for both
16:56:52 <dbaron> fantasai: and vertical-align: middle dosen't do centering... does weird text-middle thing
16:56:55 <dbaron> does for tables!
16:57:11 <dbaron> fantasai: to avoid that behavior and be consistent with bg-pos wanted center
16:57:19 <dbaron> Bert: for tables middle really is center
16:57:32 <dbaron> Bert: I don't like introducing extra property for true centering.  We broke margin:auto
16:57:43 <dbaron> Bert: Don't like introducing property that changes meaning of another.
16:57:51 <dbaron> Bert: want margin: fill that means what margin auto used to mean
16:57:57 <dbaron> Bert: I know we did box-sizing in the indirect way
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16:58:29 <fantasai> dbaron: This seems a lot less indirect to me in that it is doing block centering, that kicks in when there are no auto margins
16:58:37 <fantasai> dbaron: Authors don't like working with margin: auto
16:58:54 <fantasai> dbaron: We have a model where you can do both. You can use margin: auto;. but if it's not there, alignment properties can be used
16:59:16 <fantasai> dbaron: Isn't the true value on the same property as these alignment properties?
16:59:20 <dbaron> fantasai: yes
16:59:21 <fantasai> fantasai: yes, it's an optional keyword
16:59:30 <dbaron> Bert: oh, a shorthand?
16:59:39 <dbaron> fantasai: not shorthand, just property that takes potentially two values
16:59:41 <fantasai> fantasai: Not a shorthand, but takes multiple keywords
16:59:53 <dbaron> Bert: third remark:  have a stretch/distribute value to justify blocks inside container
17:00:03 <dbaron> Bert: space, I think
17:00:21 <dbaron> Bert: But I'm missing... use case wanted all blocks to be just one after the other except the last block that should go all the way to the other end
17:00:32 <dbaron> Bert: cannot do that with spacing between
17:00:38 <dbaron> Bert: I wanted something like an auto margin
17:00:54 <dbaron> fantasai: I think case would have to be handled with margins... is in flexbox with auto margins
17:01:04 <dbaron> Bert: I was hoping to see that outside floxbox
17:01:08 <Zakim> -[Microsoft]
17:01:23 <dbaron> Bert: I want it outside flexbox; flexbox has no collapsing margins.  Author name at bottom.
17:01:33 <dbaron> fantasai: I think reasonable request, has to be handled in spec defining margins on block
17:01:53 <dbaron> fantasai: We'd have to add a new kewyord, but I think that's out of scope for what we're doing here.
17:02:11 <dbaron> fantasai: When to publish WD?  When to discuss?
17:02:21 <dbaron> I'd like some time to review
17:02:38 <dbaron> Bert: I'm fine with publishing now.
17:02:39 <Zakim> -SimonSapin
17:02:49 <dbaron> dbaron: I'd like at least a week to review
17:02:54 <dbaron> glazou: so revisit next week
17:03:02 <Zakim> -Stearns
17:03:03 <dbaron> glazou: meeting closed
17:03:04 <Zakim> -[Microsoft.a]
17:03:05 <Zakim> -[Microsoft.aa]
17:03:06 <Zakim> -smfr
17:03:06 <Zakim> -BradK
17:03:07 <Zakim> -SylvaIng
17:03:07 <Zakim> -antonp
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17:03:08 <Zakim> -Krit
17:03:08 <Zakim> -glazou.a
17:03:09 <Zakim> -dael
17:03:09 <Zakim> -plinss
17:03:11 <Zakim> -dbaron
17:03:11 <Zakim> -Bert
17:03:12 <Zakim> -koji
17:03:12 <Zakim> -fantasai
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17:03:16 <Zakim> -[IPcaller]
17:08:17 <Zakim> disconnecting the lone participant, glazou, in Style_CSS FP()12:00PM
17:08:18 <Zakim> Style_CSS FP()12:00PM has ended
17:08:18 <Zakim> Attendees were glazou, florian, plinss, Krit, dael, Stearns, SylvaIng, fantasai, +93192aaaa, antonp, MaRakow, dbaron, smfr, [IPcaller], cabanier, SimonSapin, [Microsoft], arronei,
17:08:19 <Zakim> ... Bert, koji, JohnJansen, BradK, +33.9.50.89.aabb
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17:56:20 <fantasai> stearns: Not explicitly, no. You can do that only by picking a flex basis that fits twice per line
17:56:59 <stearns> fantasai: would that be a flex basis of 50% (or near that?)
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18:08:59 <fantasai> stearns: yeah, that should work
18:09:29 <fantasai> stearns: if you want more sophisticated sizing (like, content-based flex basis), then it's not so easy to get 2 per line
18:09:56 <fantasai> stearns: but width/height 50% or just flex: 1 50%; should work I think...
18:11:25 <stearns> fantasai: in as much as multiline flexbox is really a composition engine in disguise, there may be some composition-style features that would be useful to eventually add
18:11:39 <stearns> fantasai: like a <br> to start a new flex line
18:12:20 <stearns> fantasai: or "this group of flex items comprise a flex paragraph"
18:13:10 <stearns> fantasai: but much much farther in the future than something to consider right now
18:18:48 <fantasai> stearns: We were thinking to do that with break-before or somesuch
18:18:59 <fantasai> if you need paragraphs, make multiple flexboxen?
18:19:46 <stearns> multiple flexboxen is my current workaround, and it serves my ulterior purpose
18:20:15 <stearns> which is demonstrating the need for region boxes in different parents
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19:26:23 <fantasai> stearns: I'm not really sure what you wanted to do. ^_^
19:26:33 <fantasai> dbaron: What was your old alignment proposal for <center> ?
19:27:50 <dbaron> fantasai, http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-style/2007Nov/0071.html
19:28:43 <fantasai> I think I'm a little averse to adding more alignment properties...
19:36:40 <dbaron> yeah, probably true
19:37:09 <fantasai> I think they're somewhat unnecessary
19:37:20 <fantasai> But they were in Flexbox, and was too late to remove...
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20:26:14 <stearns> seems like a browser feature - Chrome does that (or at least asks if you'd like to translate)
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