IRC log of i18n on 2013-04-18

Timestamps are in UTC.

14:39:51 [RRSAgent]
RRSAgent has joined #i18n
14:39:51 [RRSAgent]
logging to http://www.w3.org/2013/04/18-i18n-irc
14:39:57 [addison]
zakim, this will be I18N
14:39:57 [Zakim]
"I18N" matches I18N_CoreWG()11:00AM, and I18N_MLW WG(LT)10:00AM, addison
14:40:07 [addison]
zakim, this will be I18N_CoreWG
14:40:07 [Zakim]
ok, addison; I see I18N_CoreWG()11:00AM scheduled to start in 20 minutes
14:40:20 [addison]
trackbot, prepare teleconference
14:40:23 [trackbot]
RRSAgent, make logs world
14:40:25 [trackbot]
Zakim, this will be 4186
14:40:25 [Zakim]
ok, trackbot; I see I18N_CoreWG()11:00AM scheduled to start in 20 minutes
14:40:26 [trackbot]
Meeting: Internationalization Working Group Teleconference
14:40:26 [trackbot]
Date: 18 April 2013
14:40:44 [addison]
agneda+ RADAR Review
14:40:59 [addison]
agenda+ CSS-Font case sensitivity (guest John Daggett)
14:41:09 [addison]
agenda+ TPAC
14:41:22 [addison]
agenda+ Routing feedback to winter list
14:41:33 [addison]
Agenda: https://lists.w3.org/Archives/Member/member-i18n-core/2013Apr/0029.html
14:41:39 [addison]
Chair: Addison Phillips
14:41:52 [addison]
agenda+ ITS guidance about normalization
14:42:03 [addison]
agenda+ Korean Layout Requirements move to wide review
14:42:13 [addison]
agenda+ Bidi Topics
14:42:28 [addison]
agenda+ HTML5 Topics
14:42:31 [addison]
agenda?
14:42:44 [addison]
rrsagent, draft minutes
14:42:44 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2013/04/18-i18n-minutes.html addison
14:43:02 [addison]
rrsagent, draft minutes
14:43:02 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2013/04/18-i18n-minutes.html addison
14:50:01 [David]
David has joined #i18n
14:52:51 [jdaggett]
jdaggett has joined #i18n
14:54:05 [r12a]
hello john
14:55:17 [Zakim]
I18N_CoreWG()11:00AM has now started
14:55:25 [Zakim]
+??P4
14:55:29 [jdaggett]
greetings!
14:55:29 [r12a]
zakim, who's here?
14:55:29 [Zakim]
On the phone I see ??P4
14:55:30 [Zakim]
On IRC I see jdaggett, David, RRSAgent, Zakim, addison, r12a, trackbot
14:55:45 [r12a]
jdaggett are you joining our call today?
14:55:46 [jdaggett]
zakim, ??p4 is me
14:55:46 [Zakim]
+jdaggett; got it
14:55:59 [r12a]
zakim, dial richard please
14:55:59 [Zakim]
ok, r12a; the call is being made
14:56:00 [Zakim]
+Richard
14:56:15 [Zakim]
+ +44.141.888.aaaa
14:56:35 [addison]
zakim, who is here?
14:56:35 [Zakim]
On the phone I see jdaggett, Richard, +44.141.888.aaaa
14:56:36 [Zakim]
On IRC I see jdaggett, David, RRSAgent, Zakim, addison, r12a, trackbot
14:56:42 [David]
zakim +44 is me
14:57:08 [David]
zakim, +44 is me
14:57:08 [Zakim]
+David; got it
14:57:15 [Zakim]
+aphillip
14:57:26 [addison]
zakim, who is here?
14:57:26 [Zakim]
On the phone I see jdaggett, Richard, David, aphillip
14:57:27 [Zakim]
On IRC I see jdaggett, David, RRSAgent, Zakim, addison, r12a, trackbot
14:57:35 [addison]
agenda?
14:59:26 [matial]
matial has joined #i18n
15:00:34 [Zakim]
+??P17
15:00:45 [addison]
zakim, ??P17 is matial
15:00:45 [Zakim]
+matial; got it
15:02:29 [JcK]
JcK has joined #i18n
15:03:28 [aharon]
aharon has joined #i18n
15:03:37 [Zakim]
+ +1.617.245.aabb
15:03:40 [Norbert]
Norbert has joined #i18n
15:04:07 [addison]
zakim, +1.617 is JcK
15:04:08 [Zakim]
+JcK; got it
15:04:16 [addison]
zakim, who is here?
15:04:16 [Zakim]
On the phone I see jdaggett, Richard, David, aphillip, matial (muted), JcK
15:04:19 [Zakim]
On IRC I see Norbert, aharon, JcK, matial, jdaggett, David, RRSAgent, Zakim, addison, r12a, trackbot
15:04:31 [addison]
Topic: Agenda
15:04:35 [addison]
agenda?
15:04:44 [Zakim]
+Norbert
15:05:23 [addison]
Scribe: David
15:05:27 [addison]
ScribeNick: David
15:05:34 [addison]
Topic: Action Items
15:05:49 [r12a]
zakim, who's here?
15:05:49 [Zakim]
On the phone I see jdaggett, Richard, David, aphillip, matial (muted), JcK, Norbert
15:05:51 [Zakim]
On IRC I see Norbert, aharon, JcK, matial, jdaggett, David, RRSAgent, Zakim, addison, r12a, trackbot
15:06:16 [r12a]
http://www.w3.org/International/track/actions/open
15:06:33 [addison]
close ACTION-170
15:06:33 [trackbot]
Closed ACTION-170 Coordinate with richard regarding KLReq.
15:06:34 [David]
Action 150 publication soon
15:06:34 [trackbot]
Error finding '150'. You can review and register nicknames at <http://www.w3.org/International/track/users>.
15:07:02 [Zakim]
+ +972.5.424.5aacc
15:07:10 [addison]
close ACTION-198
15:07:10 [trackbot]
Closed ACTION-198 Write back to CSS-fonts about casefolding and normalization, allowing both with health warning (see minutes).
15:07:26 [addison]
close ACTION-199
15:07:27 [trackbot]
Closed ACTION-199 Seek clarification on [:Whitespace:].
15:07:57 [addison]
close ACTION-205
15:07:57 [trackbot]
Closed ACTION-205 Send longdesc comment to HTML-WG.
15:08:37 [addison]
close ACTION-206
15:08:37 [trackbot]
Closed ACTION-206 Announce to the member list for review next week with a goal of publishing for wide revew.
15:08:54 [addison]
close ACTION-207
15:08:54 [trackbot]
Closed ACTION-207 Comment on default direction in UA bug for WG saying "bad idea".
15:09:19 [addison]
http://www.w3.org/International/wiki/Project_radar
15:09:40 [addison]
Topic: Info Share
15:09:45 [David]
Addison: no content yet, but some due
15:10:00 [David]
InfoShare
15:10:56 [David]
r12a: New "before" and "after" replacements may be "start" and "end" for CSS
15:11:59 [David]
r12a: May work, but ruby positioning inline or bopomofo "end" may be problematic and need watching
15:12:09 [addison]
agenda?
15:12:31 [addison]
zakim, take up agendum 1
15:12:31 [Zakim]
agendum 1. "CSS-Font case sensitivity (guest John Daggett)" taken up [from addison]
15:12:40 [David]
r12a: Tokyo workshop looking for papers
15:12:54 [addison]
https://lists.w3.org/Archives/Member/member-i18n-core/2013Apr/0030.html
15:13:13 [David]
addison: J Daggett guest here to discuss.
15:14:27 [David]
addison: proposal was that font name matching should be normalise C+F insensitve case - some implementers are unhappy, but normalisation unlikely to be real problem.
15:16:15 [David]
JDaggett: Case insensitivity in unicode is awkward. in CSS only existing insensitivity is ASCII identifiers
15:16:52 [David]
JDaggett: Font names are not localised as families, normally.
15:17:59 [David]
JDaggett: CJK font name matching is troublesome, as it takes into account Locale
15:18:28 [David]
JDagget: e.g. Japanese font designer gets correct name but other users don't
15:19:09 [David]
JDaggett: Downloadable fonts are named completely up to the author in @fontface
15:20:17 [David]
Addison: Agrees with where CSS is now, but was secretly case insensitive
15:21:20 [jdaggett]
http://dev.w3.org/csswg/css-fonts/#font-family-casing
15:21:54 [David]
Addison: Agree that if using Unicode case insensitivity should use the same algorithm, C+F without normalisation but watch out for combining marks, with caveats
15:22:25 [David]
Addison: caseless unicode matching is not complex.
15:23:38 [David]
JDaggett: Issue asking I18n WG, would like to settle on one method of case insensitive matching if performed.
15:24:41 [David]
Addison: Generally perform better as C+F but buffer allocation on case fold needs care, but it does anyway for UTF-8.
15:25:20 [David]
JDaggett: 99% of the time the ASCII would fold OK, and CJK wouldn't fold anyway.
15:26:23 [David]
Addison: No normalisation sensitive names will occur.
15:27:02 [David]
r12a: Actual font names can be case folded without normalisation
15:27:17 [David]
JDagget: as in version 5.1 of spec
15:27:19 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2013/04/18-i18n-minutes.html addison
15:27:59 [David]
JDagget: This matching should be used in general case, not just for font names.
15:28:16 [David]
r12a: Do user defined names become case insensitive?
15:28:31 [David]
JDaggett: Not for font familly names.
15:29:33 [David]
Addison: If CSS adds other case insensitive matching, it should follow the same pattern (C+F without normalisation)
15:30:10 [David]
r12a: As long they promise never to do it, I'm happy if they do it!
15:30:30 [addison]
john: two proposals
15:30:36 [addison]
1. C+F is preferred to C+S
15:30:42 [addison]
2. okay with no normalization
15:30:51 [addison]
s/proposals/resolutions I'd like to see/
15:31:14 [David]
+1
15:31:25 [addison]
addison: agree with both
15:32:32 [David]
addison: One could compose a normative sensitive font name, but it would be bad for other reasons too.
15:33:31 [David]
John: Font designers are avoiding unicode names at present.
15:34:04 [David]
Addison: If this changes, font selection may be very difficult in other contexts
15:34:35 [addison]
richard: okay
15:34:39 [addison]
david: okay
15:34:44 [addison]
JcK: seems rational
15:35:30 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2013/04/18-i18n-minutes.html addison
15:35:42 [addison]
... expressing happiness
15:35:56 [David]
JcK: matching options are expanding, but this seems rational
15:35:57 [addison]
s/expressing/not expressing/
15:36:33 [addison]
ACTION: addison: write back to CSS about font case sensitivity matching and remove normalization (cf two resolutions in minutes)
15:36:33 [trackbot]
Created ACTION-209 - Write back to CSS about font case sensitivity matching and remove normalization (cf two resolutions in minutes) [on Addison Phillips - due 2013-04-25].
15:36:37 [addison]
agenda?
15:36:59 [Zakim]
-jdaggett
15:37:06 [addison]
zakim, take up agendum 2
15:37:06 [Zakim]
agendum 2. "TPAC" taken up [from addison]
15:37:20 [addison]
richard: see the WBS request?
15:37:27 [addison]
addison: will search it
15:37:48 [David]
Richard: TPAC will be in China. Dates have been brought closer
15:38:10 [addison]
Nov 11 - 15
15:38:26 [addison]
action: addison: ensure TPAC WBS form is filed for i18n
15:38:26 [trackbot]
Created ACTION-210 - Ensure TPAC WBS form is filed for i18n [on Addison Phillips - due 2013-04-25].
15:38:32 [addison]
agenda?
15:38:42 [addison]
zakim, take up agendum 3
15:38:42 [Zakim]
agendum 3. "Routing feedback to winter list" taken up [from addison]
15:39:09 [addison]
https://lists.w3.org/Archives/Member/member-i18n-core/2013Apr/0025.html
15:39:24 [David]
r12a: GEO feedback list receives comment form infomration, but few people see them. Fewere respond to them.
15:39:52 [David]
r12a: We do get some spam, but could forward mails to the winter list.
15:41:03 [David]
r12a: Would need to reword, notice to say, "comments will be public" and lose anonymity, which is better.
15:41:24 [addison]
action: richard: make wording changes and implement decision to send future feedback to winter list
15:41:24 [trackbot]
Created ACTION-211 - Make wording changes and implement decision to send future feedback to winter list [on Richard Ishida - due 2013-04-25].
15:41:31 [addison]
agenda?
15:42:05 [addison]
zakim, take up agendum 5
15:42:05 [Zakim]
agendum 5. "Korean Layout Requirements move to wide review" taken up [from addison]
15:42:26 [addison]
richard: awaiting korean translation, norbert sent some comments
15:42:38 [addison]
... want group to say "put this out as FPWD"
15:43:06 [addison]
addison: support
15:43:13 [addison]
norbert: good to get more feedback
15:43:38 [David]
No opposition
15:43:55 [r12a]
ok to publish
15:44:03 [addison]
ok to publish
15:44:05 [David]
OK to go ahead
15:44:18 [Norbert]
ok
15:44:24 [aharon]
yup.
15:44:31 [aharon]
no opposition.
15:44:54 [JcK]
No objection... i.e., support
15:45:15 [addison]
chair: WG resolution: approved Korean Layout Requirements to publish as FPWD
15:45:40 [addison]
action: richard: prepare KLReq for FPWD and usher through publication process
15:45:40 [trackbot]
Created ACTION-212 - Prepare KLReq for FPWD and usher through publication process [on Richard Ishida - due 2013-04-25].
15:45:47 [addison]
agenda?
15:45:59 [addison]
zakim, take up agendum 6
15:45:59 [Zakim]
agendum 6. "Bidi Topics" taken up [from addison]
15:46:23 [David]
addison: there are a number of bidi topics
15:46:39 [addison]
Guidance about bidi authoring materials: https://lists.w3.org/Archives/Member/member-i18n-core/2013Apr/0018.html
15:46:57 [David]
r12a: Looking for bidi recomendations to be published, after lots of work
15:47:02 [addison]
http://www.w3.org/International/tutorials/new-bidi-xhtml/qa-html-dir
15:47:09 [addison]
http://www.w3.org/International/tutorials/new-bidi-xhtml/Overview-inline
15:47:18 [addison]
http://www.w3.org/International/tutorials/new-bidi-xhtml/qa-visual-vs-logical
15:47:25 [addison]
http://www.w3.org/International/tutorials/new-bidi-xhtml/Overview
15:47:33 [David]
r12a: would like them ot go live, rather than wide review
15:47:59 [David]
Mati: Go live!
15:48:08 [matial]
ok
15:48:13 [r12a]
s/Mati/Aharon/
15:48:15 [matial]
ok
15:48:33 [David]
OK
15:48:38 [addison]
action: richard: publish four bidi tutorials
15:48:38 [trackbot]
Created ACTION-213 - Publish four bidi tutorials [on Richard Ishida - due 2013-04-25].
15:48:53 [r12a]
http://www.w3.org/International/wiki/Html-bidi-isolation
15:48:54 [addison]
Next Steps in @dir isolation: https://lists.w3.org/Archives/Member/member-i18n-core/2013Apr/0019.html
15:49:09 [David]
r12a: Write up for inheriting isolation in HTML5
15:49:19 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2013/04/18-i18n-minutes.html addison
15:49:36 [r12a]
http://www.w3.org/International/wiki/Html-bidi-isolation
15:50:38 [David]
r12a: Proposals for how to get isolation into HTML 5, Comments received from Aharon and ??. If these are addressed can it go to wide review?
15:50:51 [r12a]
aharon: yes
15:50:51 [addison]
s/??/John/
15:51:14 [matial]
yes
15:51:43 [JcK]
yes, definitely
15:51:55 [David]
yes, go with proposal A
15:52:15 [addison]
action: richard: publish html-bidi-isolation proposal for wide review
15:52:16 [trackbot]
Created ACTION-214 - Publish html-bidi-isolation proposal for wide review [on Richard Ishida - due 2013-04-25].
15:52:27 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2013/04/18-i18n-minutes.html addison
15:52:34 [addison]
agenda
15:52:37 [addison]
agenda?
15:53:16 [David]
Addison: Any HTML5 actions for this meeting?
15:53:32 [JcK]
On bidi, there are a few others I'd like to circulate the drafts to (the IETF IDNA bidi team). Would that be ok at this stage?
15:53:33 [addison]
action: addison: double-check that all .prep items are gone to html5
15:53:33 [trackbot]
Created ACTION-215 - Double-check that all .prep items are gone to html5 [on Addison Phillips - due 2013-04-25].
15:54:44 [David]
Addison: We want wide review now, so comments can be addressed.
15:54:52 [addison]
Topic: AOB?
15:55:44 [Zakim]
-aphillip
15:55:45 [Zakim]
- +972.5.424.5aacc
15:55:46 [Zakim]
-David
15:55:46 [Zakim]
-JcK
15:55:47 [Zakim]
-Norbert
15:55:55 [Zakim]
-matial
15:55:59 [addison]
rrsagent, draft minutes
15:55:59 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2013/04/18-i18n-minutes.html addison
15:56:00 [r12a]
zakim, drop richard
15:56:00 [Zakim]
Richard is being disconnected
15:56:02 [Zakim]
I18N_CoreWG()11:00AM has ended
15:56:02 [Zakim]
Attendees were jdaggett, Richard, +44.141.888.aaaa, David, aphillip, matial, +1.617.245.aabb, JcK, Norbert, +972.5.424.5aacc
15:56:10 [aharon]
aharon has left #i18n
15:56:21 [addison]
rrsagent, draft minutes
15:56:21 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2013/04/18-i18n-minutes.html addison
15:57:05 [addison]
Present: Addison, Richard, Norbert, Mati, Aharon, David, JohnK, John Daggett (guest)
15:57:11 [addison]
Regrets: Felix
15:57:17 [addison]
rrsagent, draft minutes
15:57:17 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2013/04/18-i18n-minutes.html addison
15:57:38 [addison]
rrsagent, make minutes
15:57:38 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2013/04/18-i18n-minutes.html addison
15:58:11 [addison]
zakim, who is here?
15:58:11 [Zakim]
apparently I18N_CoreWG()11:00AM has ended, addison
15:58:12 [Zakim]
On IRC I see jdaggett, RRSAgent, Zakim, addison, r12a, trackbot
15:58:17 [addison]
zakim, bye
15:58:18 [Zakim]
Zakim has left #i18n
15:58:27 [addison]
rrsagent, draft minutes
15:58:27 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2013/04/18-i18n-minutes.html addison
15:58:41 [addison]
rrsagent, bye
15:58:41 [RRSAgent]
I see 7 open action items saved in http://www.w3.org/2013/04/18-i18n-actions.rdf :
15:58:41 [RRSAgent]
ACTION: addison: write back to CSS about font case sensitivity matching and remove normalization (cf two resolutions in minutes) [1]
15:58:41 [RRSAgent]
recorded in http://www.w3.org/2013/04/18-i18n-irc#T15-36-33
15:58:41 [RRSAgent]
ACTION: addison: ensure TPAC WBS form is filed for i18n [2]
15:58:41 [RRSAgent]
recorded in http://www.w3.org/2013/04/18-i18n-irc#T15-38-26
15:58:41 [RRSAgent]
ACTION: richard: make wording changes and implement decision to send future feedback to winter list [3]
15:58:41 [RRSAgent]
recorded in http://www.w3.org/2013/04/18-i18n-irc#T15-41-24
15:58:41 [RRSAgent]
ACTION: richard: prepare KLReq for FPWD and usher through publication process [4]
15:58:41 [RRSAgent]
recorded in http://www.w3.org/2013/04/18-i18n-irc#T15-45-40
15:58:41 [RRSAgent]
ACTION: richard: publish four bidi tutorials [5]
15:58:41 [RRSAgent]
recorded in http://www.w3.org/2013/04/18-i18n-irc#T15-48-38
15:58:41 [RRSAgent]
ACTION: richard: publish html-bidi-isolation proposal for wide review [6]
15:58:41 [RRSAgent]
recorded in http://www.w3.org/2013/04/18-i18n-irc#T15-52-15
15:58:41 [RRSAgent]
ACTION: addison: double-check that all .prep items are gone to html5 [7]
15:58:41 [RRSAgent]
recorded in http://www.w3.org/2013/04/18-i18n-irc#T15-53-33