15:00:00 RRSAgent has joined #html-media
15:00:00 logging to http://www.w3.org/2013/04/16-html-media-irc
15:00:02 RRSAgent, make logs public
15:00:02 Zakim has joined #html-media
15:00:04 Zakim, this will be 63342
15:00:04 ok, trackbot; I see HTML_WG()11:00AM scheduled to start now
15:00:05 Meeting: HTML Media Task Force Teleconference
15:00:05 Date: 16 April 2013
15:00:19 johnsim has joined #html-media
15:00:37 markw has joined #html-media
15:01:11 Bin_Hu has joined #html-media
15:01:44 zakim, this will be html
15:01:44 ok, glenn, I see HTML_WG()11:00AM already started
15:01:51 zakim, who's on the phone?
15:01:51 On the phone I see +1.212.512.aaaa, [Microsoft], +1.417.671.aacc
15:01:52 joesteele has joined #html-media
15:01:58 zakim, aacc is me
15:02:00 +glenn; got it
15:02:06 +[IPcaller]
15:02:09 zakim, who is on the phone?
15:02:09 On the phone I see +1.212.512.aaaa, [Microsoft], glenn, [IPcaller]
15:02:18 zakim, [microsoft] is me
15:02:18 +johnsim; got it
15:02:24 Zakim, [IPcaller] is me
15:02:24 +markw; got it
15:02:37 + +1.408.536.aadd
15:02:41 + +1.425.214.aaee
15:02:47 zakim, aadd is me
15:02:47 +joesteele; got it
15:02:55 zakim, aaee is me
15:02:56 i am aaaa
15:02:57 +Bin_Hu; got it
15:03:15 zakim, aaaa is me
15:03:15 +ReimundoGarcia; got it
15:03:18 present+ Bin_Hu
15:04:05 BobLund has joined #html-media
15:04:49 + +1.425.202.aaff
15:05:00 ddorwin has joined #html-media
15:05:43 zakim, who is on the phone?
15:05:43 On the phone I see ReimundoGarcia, johnsim, glenn, markw, joesteele, Bin_Hu, +1.425.202.aaff
15:08:29 + +1.303.661.aagg
15:08:43 zakin, aagg is me
15:09:02 zakim, +1.303.661.aagg is me
15:09:02 +BobLund; got it
15:09:55 -BobLund
15:10:25 trackbot-ng, start telcon
15:10:27 RRSAgent, make logs public
15:10:29 Zakim, this will be 63342
15:10:29 ok, trackbot; I see HTML_WG()11:00AM scheduled to start 10 minutes ago
15:10:30 Meeting: HTML Media Task Force Teleconference
15:10:30 Date: 16 April 2013
15:10:39 scribe: joesteele
15:10:57 Zakim, who is on the call
15:10:57 I don't understand 'who is on the call', joesteele
15:11:05 Zakim, who is here
15:11:06 joesteele, you need to end that query with '?'
15:11:09 Zakim, who is here?
15:11:09 I notice HTML_WG()11:00AM has restarted
15:11:10 On the phone I see ReimundoGarcia, johnsim, glenn, markw, joesteele, Bin_Hu, +1.425.202.aaff
15:11:10 On IRC I see ddorwin, BobLund, joesteele, Bin_Hu, markw, johnsim, Zakim, RRSAgent, ReimundoGarcia, glenn, wseltzer, trackbot
15:11:23 adrianba has joined #html-media
15:11:37 zakim, code?
15:11:38 the conference code is 63342 (tel:+1.617.761.6200 sip:zakim@voip.w3.org), adrianba
15:11:41 http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html-media/2013Apr/0042.html
15:12:03 +[Microsoft]
15:12:09 zakim, [Microsoft] is me
15:12:09 +adrianba; got it
15:12:10 Agenda: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html-media/2013Apr/0042.html
15:12:13 +BobLund
15:12:37 Chair: John Simmons
15:12:52 Topic: Minutes
15:13:03 noted
15:13:09 Topic: ACTION items
15:13:17 acolwell has joined #html-media
15:13:33 ACTION-10?
15:13:33 ACTION-10 -- Adrian Bateman to discuss bug 19208 with johnsim -- due 2013-04-08 -- OPEN
15:13:33 http://www.w3.org/html/wg/media/track/actions/10
15:14:14 q+
15:14:25 +Aaron_Colwell
15:14:51 https://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=19208
15:14:58 ack adrianba
15:15:24 adrianba: topic we have been discussing is the expected lifetime of the session
15:15:45 ... we compared the levels people had for the session and the events that get fired
15:15:56 ... in the process of writing up how we think it should work
15:16:15 ... and how we should solve which events get fired when the key system already has a key
15:16:37 ... receive a needkey, call createSession, key system has all the info it needs, how should it signal that to the app?
15:16:49 ... trying to writeup that lifecycle
15:17:03 johnsim: including that app may require that you get a refresh of the key
15:17:18 ... Mark you mentioned that some applications may want that
15:17:41 ... so this is a state transition diagram. Nothing to present as yet but should have something shortly
15:18:09 ddorwin: new due date?
15:18:23 adrianba: should have something soon
15:18:29 ACTION-10 due 15 apr
15:18:29 Set ACTION-10 Discuss bug 19208 with johnsim due date to 15 apr.
15:18:47 action-10 due 22 apr
15:18:47 Set ACTION-10 Discuss bug 19208 with johnsim due date to 22 apr.
15:19:07 ACTION-11?
15:19:07 ACTION-11 -- Mark Watson to write a proposal for the case where the data is not available to the JS -- due 2013-04-02 -- OPEN
15:19:07 http://www.w3.org/html/wg/media/track/actions/11
15:19:14 johnsim: I see a second action for Mark as well
15:19:42 ... move on to next agenda item?
15:19:52 markw: haven't done it -- not sure what it refers to
15:20:22 markw: will go back to the thread an try to determine what it means
15:20:25 q+
15:20:30 i think the action makes sense in the context of the minutes
15:20:42 q-
15:21:19 Topic: Outstanding bugs
15:21:44 ddorwin: we left error related ones last week, but do we want to discuss the F2F first?
15:21:56 +1
15:22:31 johnsim: do we have a mtg room? how many hours? has that been discussed?
15:22:42 ... that will determine what we can accomplish
15:22:46 yes
15:22:48 ... are all editors attending
15:22:59 ddorwin: yes
15:23:34 q+
15:23:43 johnsim: want to get to FPWD, if we have triaged down to the bugs that must be addressed for FPWD
15:23:48 ... we should handle those ASAP
15:24:19 adrianba: think we addressed all of those bugs
15:24:47 ... we were gated on the chairs to resolve. don't think we are waiting on those
15:25:19 johnsim: 19208 is something that we should address - how we clarify session in the spec
15:25:26 ... should be on the agenda
15:25:54 adrianba: paul was investigating whether we have a breakout space
15:26:11 ... we have asked for 2x 90 minutes slots the afternoon of the first day
15:26:23 ... this would be in the full meeting
15:26:51 johnsim: is that the right place to get into the nitty gritty?
15:27:02 adrianba: that is what we did in November
15:27:17 ?1: paul said we are very tight on space
15:27:48 ddorwin: might want to go after some not spec-specific stuff like origin that we might get some in-the-room expertise on
15:28:39 ddorwin: there are several like that
15:28:42 https://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=21155
15:28:48 https://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=21203
15:28:52 https://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=21569
15:29:14 https://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=20798
15:29:42 johnsim: it seems valuable to go into the mtg with someone owning each bug
15:29:51 ... do you agree David?
15:30:12 ddorwin: definitely should have owner and know what we want to get out of each session
15:30:51 johnsim: definitely want to have an idea of the outcome we want. Should we discuss each of them now?
15:31:19 ddorwin: think we discussed each but don't remember the outcome
15:32:11 ddorwin: I have been digging through the minutes to update each bug with our discussion -- not enough information yet
15:32:30 johnsim: so we should update the bugs with the remaining information from the minutes?
15:32:34 ddorwin: yes
15:33:06 johnsim: do we have concensus that these are what we should discuss?
15:33:08 https://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=21586
15:33:11 q+
15:33:16 we have one session for EME and one for MSE
15:33:18 q-
15:34:32 joesteele: should we be prepared to discuss the not-technical issues brought up?
15:36:13 markw: yes - some async discussion about giving the UA opportunity to put up permission UI, we might want to cover that in more detail in the group
15:36:38 s/markw: yes/adrianba: yes/
15:36:40 I believe that discussion came out of https://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=20991
15:36:47 johnsim: Adrian were the slots requested for MSE and EME?
15:37:08 F2F -> http://www.w3.org/wiki/HTML/wg/2013-04-Agenda#Potential_Topics
15:37:12 adrianba: yes
15:38:15 ack joesteele
15:38:42 Privacy issue -> https://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=20965
15:38:53 zakim, who is noisy?
15:38:54 Topic: Outstanding Bugs
15:39:04 adrianba, listening for 10 seconds I heard sound from the following: Bin_Hu (49%)
15:39:34 johnsim: what order should we take these in?
15:39:48 https://dvcs.w3.org/hg/html-media/raw-file/tip/encrypted-media/encrypted-media.html#error-codes
15:39:52 ddorwin: revisit the original order
15:40:03 ... specific bug for media key err client
15:40:16 s/original order/original list/
15:40:18 https://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=16737
15:40:19 zakim, mute Bin_Hu
15:40:19 Bin_Hu should now be muted
15:40:27 Should MEDIA_KEYERR_CLIENT be two separate errors?
15:40:43 s/media key err client/MEDIA_KEYERR_CLIENT/
15:41:18 ddorwin: should be some other errors I think, do we want to make this generic? think we need a larger discussion about the errors
15:42:14 johnsim: have there been implementations that show these are not sufficient
15:42:34 MEDIA_KEYERR_OUTPUT (numeric value 4)There is no available output device with the required characteristics for the content protection system.
15:42:34 ddorwin: not sure what different between 4 and 5
15:42:37 q+
15:42:39 +q
15:42:42 MEDIA_KEYERR_HARDWARECHANGE (numeric value 5)A hardware configuration change caused a content protection error.
15:42:54 johnsim: should clarify these if not clear
15:43:10 ack markw
15:43:26 markw: your description of those two is correct
15:44:00 markw: MEDIA_KEYERR_HARDWARECHANGE is when outputs have changed
15:44:26 ddorwin: was a specific bug about how to use this?
15:44:40 johnsim: an action item that we had not worked on?
15:44:57 adrianba: bugs we took several months ago and things have changed since we took them
15:45:41 ... we have been trying to avoid errors when we playback content, rather signal to the app that it will not get the protection it was asking for
15:46:07 ... allow it to vary the content as a result. in general that is the approach we want to take, to avoid errors if possible.
15:46:54 ... the other part was for debugging we find that the level of granularity will not be sufficient, so we will need a system code to allow apps to understand what is going on
15:47:10 ... trying to understand what the balance is between generic errors and the system level codes
15:47:18 q+
15:47:46 ack joe
15:48:45 q+
15:49:08 joesteele: my definition of MEDIA_KEYERR_HARDWARECHANGE was very different -- tied to device binding
15:49:20 johnsim: this is what can lead to a bad interop
15:49:28 q?
15:49:55 johnsim: might be worth going over each error and discuss what each actually means and propose text
15:50:14 ... in this case we may be surfacing the need for a new error code
15:50:29 ... e.g. what joe and adrian were suggesting
15:50:32 ack me
15:51:06 ddorwin: for those of us with CDM implementations to go back to our teams and determine what errors are actually needed
15:51:13 ... maybe using this list as a prompt
15:51:48 ... related to this, adrians proposal to not have as many generic errors, it would be nice for apps to display a generic error.
15:51:50 +q
15:52:16 ddorwin: for example - you need a new client, or you plugged in a bad output
15:52:30 ... application may not want to have a detailed error msg for each key system
15:52:52 q?
15:52:56 ... may want a more general error
15:53:11 ddorwin: adrian were you thinking we would still have a general error signal?
15:53:18 .. or not have this
15:53:30 s/\.\. or/... or/
15:53:49 adrianba: had not reached a proposal yet, might be the same event or a different one
15:54:00 ... just that we may want an event to signal that status
15:54:46 adrianba: think david summarized the right question - do we need more generic errors? or is that impractical and we should relay on something system specific?
15:54:52 ack adrianba
15:54:57 q+
15:55:57 ack me
15:56:16 joesteele: need to focus on errors that mean something to the user
15:56:50 adrianba: yes - have something that the user can take an action for
15:57:06 ack me
15:57:06 ... maybe have one more error that a system specific error has occured
15:57:17 johnsim: couple minutes left -- what next?
15:57:22 s/adrianba: yes - /markw:yes - /
15:57:58 johnsim: should we adjourn?
15:58:24 -BobLund
15:58:26 ddorwin: I will be spending lots of time on bugs, please other editors do the same and folks who care about the bugs so we are ready
15:58:29 +1
15:58:47 johnsim: see you all at the F2F -- next Tuesday/Wednesday
15:58:49 -glenn
15:58:52 -joesteele
15:58:55 -Bin_Hu
15:58:56 -johnsim
15:58:57 -ReimundoGarcia
15:58:59 rrsagent, draft minutes
15:58:59 I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2013/04/16-html-media-minutes.html joesteele
15:59:00 -markw
15:59:04 thanks for chairing and scribing
15:59:11 -adrianba
15:59:19 rrsagent, draft minutes
15:59:19 I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2013/04/16-html-media-minutes.html joesteele
15:59:21 -Aaron_Colwell
16:01:17 Present: ReimundoGarcia, johnsim, glenn, markw, joesteele, Bin_Hu
16:01:29 - +1.425.202.aaff
16:01:30 HTML_WG()11:00AM has ended
16:01:30 Attendees were +1.212.512.aaaa, +1.417.671.aabb, +1.417.671.aacc, glenn, johnsim, markw, +1.408.536.aadd, +1.425.214.aaee, joesteele, Bin_Hu, ReimundoGarcia, +1.425.202.aaff,
16:01:30 ... BobLund, adrianba, Aaron_Colwell
16:01:41 rrsagent, draft minutes
16:01:41 I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2013/04/16-html-media-minutes.html joesteele
16:01:56 zakim, aaff is me
16:01:56 sorry, ddorwin, I do not recognize a party named 'aaff'
16:02:03 Present: ReimundoGarcia, wseltzer
16:02:26 Present: ddorwin
16:02:42 rrsagent, draft minutes
16:02:42 I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2013/04/16-html-media-minutes.html joesteele
16:04:08 Present: ddorwin, glenn, johnsim, markw, Bin_Hu, ReimundoGarcia, BobLund, adrianba, Aaron_Colwell, joesteele, wseltzer, acolwell
16:04:24 rrsagent, draft minutes
16:04:24 I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2013/04/16-html-media-minutes.html joesteele
16:06:20