IRC log of html-media on 2013-04-16

Timestamps are in UTC.

15:00:00 [RRSAgent]
RRSAgent has joined #html-media
15:00:00 [RRSAgent]
logging to
15:00:02 [trackbot]
RRSAgent, make logs public
15:00:02 [Zakim]
Zakim has joined #html-media
15:00:04 [trackbot]
Zakim, this will be 63342
15:00:04 [Zakim]
ok, trackbot; I see HTML_WG()11:00AM scheduled to start now
15:00:05 [trackbot]
Meeting: HTML Media Task Force Teleconference
15:00:05 [trackbot]
Date: 16 April 2013
15:00:19 [johnsim]
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15:00:37 [markw]
markw has joined #html-media
15:01:11 [Bin_Hu]
Bin_Hu has joined #html-media
15:01:44 [glenn]
zakim, this will be html
15:01:44 [Zakim]
ok, glenn, I see HTML_WG()11:00AM already started
15:01:51 [glenn]
zakim, who's on the phone?
15:01:51 [Zakim]
On the phone I see +1.212.512.aaaa, [Microsoft], +1.417.671.aacc
15:01:52 [joesteele]
joesteele has joined #html-media
15:01:58 [glenn]
zakim, aacc is me
15:02:00 [Zakim]
+glenn; got it
15:02:06 [Zakim]
15:02:09 [johnsim]
zakim, who is on the phone?
15:02:09 [Zakim]
On the phone I see +1.212.512.aaaa, [Microsoft], glenn, [IPcaller]
15:02:18 [johnsim]
zakim, [microsoft] is me
15:02:18 [Zakim]
+johnsim; got it
15:02:24 [markw]
Zakim, [IPcaller] is me
15:02:24 [Zakim]
+markw; got it
15:02:37 [Zakim]
+ +1.408.536.aadd
15:02:41 [Zakim]
+ +1.425.214.aaee
15:02:47 [joesteele]
zakim, aadd is me
15:02:47 [Zakim]
+joesteele; got it
15:02:55 [Bin_Hu]
zakim, aaee is me
15:02:56 [ReimundoGarcia]
i am aaaa
15:02:57 [Zakim]
+Bin_Hu; got it
15:03:15 [ReimundoGarcia]
zakim, aaaa is me
15:03:15 [Zakim]
+ReimundoGarcia; got it
15:03:18 [Bin_Hu]
present+ Bin_Hu
15:04:05 [BobLund]
BobLund has joined #html-media
15:04:49 [Zakim]
+ +1.425.202.aaff
15:05:00 [ddorwin]
ddorwin has joined #html-media
15:05:43 [johnsim]
zakim, who is on the phone?
15:05:43 [Zakim]
On the phone I see ReimundoGarcia, johnsim, glenn, markw, joesteele, Bin_Hu, +1.425.202.aaff
15:08:29 [Zakim]
+ +1.303.661.aagg
15:08:43 [BobLund]
zakin, aagg is me
15:09:02 [BobLund]
zakim, +1.303.661.aagg is me
15:09:02 [Zakim]
+BobLund; got it
15:09:55 [Zakim]
15:10:25 [joesteele]
trackbot-ng, start telcon
15:10:27 [trackbot]
RRSAgent, make logs public
15:10:29 [trackbot]
Zakim, this will be 63342
15:10:29 [Zakim]
ok, trackbot; I see HTML_WG()11:00AM scheduled to start 10 minutes ago
15:10:30 [trackbot]
Meeting: HTML Media Task Force Teleconference
15:10:30 [trackbot]
Date: 16 April 2013
15:10:39 [joesteele]
scribe: joesteele
15:10:57 [joesteele]
Zakim, who is on the call
15:10:57 [Zakim]
I don't understand 'who is on the call', joesteele
15:11:05 [joesteele]
Zakim, who is here
15:11:06 [Zakim]
joesteele, you need to end that query with '?'
15:11:09 [joesteele]
Zakim, who is here?
15:11:09 [Zakim]
I notice HTML_WG()11:00AM has restarted
15:11:10 [Zakim]
On the phone I see ReimundoGarcia, johnsim, glenn, markw, joesteele, Bin_Hu, +1.425.202.aaff
15:11:10 [Zakim]
On IRC I see ddorwin, BobLund, joesteele, Bin_Hu, markw, johnsim, Zakim, RRSAgent, ReimundoGarcia, glenn, wseltzer, trackbot
15:11:23 [adrianba]
adrianba has joined #html-media
15:11:37 [adrianba]
zakim, code?
15:11:38 [Zakim]
the conference code is 63342 (tel:+1.617.761.6200, adrianba
15:11:41 [ddorwin]
15:12:03 [Zakim]
15:12:09 [adrianba]
zakim, [Microsoft] is me
15:12:09 [Zakim]
+adrianba; got it
15:12:10 [joesteele]
15:12:13 [Zakim]
15:12:37 [joesteele]
Chair: John Simmons
15:12:52 [joesteele]
Topic: Minutes
15:13:03 [joesteele]
15:13:09 [joesteele]
Topic: ACTION items
15:13:17 [acolwell]
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15:13:33 [adrianba]
15:13:33 [trackbot]
ACTION-10 -- Adrian Bateman to discuss bug 19208 with johnsim -- due 2013-04-08 -- OPEN
15:13:33 [trackbot]
15:14:14 [adrianba]
15:14:25 [Zakim]
15:14:51 [ddorwin]
15:14:58 [joesteele]
ack adrianba
15:15:24 [joesteele]
adrianba: topic we have been discussing is the expected lifetime of the session
15:15:45 [joesteele]
... we compared the levels people had for the session and the events that get fired
15:15:56 [joesteele]
... in the process of writing up how we think it should work
15:16:15 [joesteele]
... and how we should solve which events get fired when the key system already has a key
15:16:37 [joesteele]
... receive a needkey, call createSession, key system has all the info it needs, how should it signal that to the app?
15:16:49 [joesteele]
... trying to writeup that lifecycle
15:17:03 [joesteele]
johnsim: including that app may require that you get a refresh of the key
15:17:18 [joesteele]
... Mark you mentioned that some applications may want that
15:17:41 [joesteele]
... so this is a state transition diagram. Nothing to present as yet but should have something shortly
15:18:09 [joesteele]
ddorwin: new due date?
15:18:23 [joesteele]
adrianba: should have something soon
15:18:29 [adrianba]
ACTION-10 due 15 apr
15:18:29 [trackbot]
Set ACTION-10 Discuss bug 19208 with johnsim due date to 15 apr.
15:18:47 [adrianba]
action-10 due 22 apr
15:18:47 [trackbot]
Set ACTION-10 Discuss bug 19208 with johnsim due date to 22 apr.
15:19:07 [adrianba]
15:19:07 [trackbot]
ACTION-11 -- Mark Watson to write a proposal for the case where the data is not available to the JS -- due 2013-04-02 -- OPEN
15:19:07 [trackbot]
15:19:14 [joesteele]
johnsim: I see a second action for Mark as well
15:19:42 [joesteele]
... move on to next agenda item?
15:19:52 [joesteele]
markw: haven't done it -- not sure what it refers to
15:20:22 [joesteele]
markw: will go back to the thread an try to determine what it means
15:20:25 [joesteele]
15:20:30 [adrianba]
i think the action makes sense in the context of the minutes
15:20:42 [joesteele]
15:21:19 [joesteele]
Topic: Outstanding bugs
15:21:44 [joesteele]
ddorwin: we left error related ones last week, but do we want to discuss the F2F first?
15:21:56 [joesteele]
15:22:31 [joesteele]
johnsim: do we have a mtg room? how many hours? has that been discussed?
15:22:42 [joesteele]
... that will determine what we can accomplish
15:22:46 [acolwell]
15:22:48 [joesteele]
... are all editors attending
15:22:59 [joesteele]
ddorwin: yes
15:23:34 [adrianba]
15:23:43 [joesteele]
johnsim: want to get to FPWD, if we have triaged down to the bugs that must be addressed for FPWD
15:23:48 [joesteele]
... we should handle those ASAP
15:24:19 [joesteele]
adrianba: think we addressed all of those bugs
15:24:47 [joesteele]
... we were gated on the chairs to resolve. don't think we are waiting on those
15:25:19 [joesteele]
johnsim: 19208 is something that we should address - how we clarify session in the spec
15:25:26 [joesteele]
... should be on the agenda
15:25:54 [joesteele]
adrianba: paul was investigating whether we have a breakout space
15:26:11 [joesteele]
... we have asked for 2x 90 minutes slots the afternoon of the first day
15:26:23 [joesteele]
... this would be in the full meeting
15:26:51 [joesteele]
johnsim: is that the right place to get into the nitty gritty?
15:27:02 [joesteele]
adrianba: that is what we did in November
15:27:17 [joesteele]
?1: paul said we are very tight on space
15:27:48 [joesteele]
ddorwin: might want to go after some not spec-specific stuff like origin that we might get some in-the-room expertise on
15:28:39 [joesteele]
ddorwin: there are several like that
15:28:42 [ddorwin]
15:28:48 [ddorwin]
15:28:52 [ddorwin]
15:29:14 [ddorwin]
15:29:42 [joesteele]
johnsim: it seems valuable to go into the mtg with someone owning each bug
15:29:51 [joesteele]
... do you agree David?
15:30:12 [joesteele]
ddorwin: definitely should have owner and know what we want to get out of each session
15:30:51 [joesteele]
johnsim: definitely want to have an idea of the outcome we want. Should we discuss each of them now?
15:31:19 [joesteele]
ddorwin: think we discussed each but don't remember the outcome
15:32:11 [joesteele]
ddorwin: I have been digging through the minutes to update each bug with our discussion -- not enough information yet
15:32:30 [joesteele]
johnsim: so we should update the bugs with the remaining information from the minutes?
15:32:34 [joesteele]
ddorwin: yes
15:33:06 [joesteele]
johnsim: do we have concensus that these are what we should discuss?
15:33:08 [ddorwin]
15:33:11 [joesteele]
15:33:16 [adrianba]
we have one session for EME and one for MSE
15:33:18 [adrianba]
15:34:32 [joesteele]
joesteele: should we be prepared to discuss the not-technical issues brought up?
15:36:13 [joesteele]
markw: yes - some async discussion about giving the UA opportunity to put up permission UI, we might want to cover that in more detail in the group
15:36:38 [ddorwin]
s/markw: yes/adrianba: yes/
15:36:40 [ddorwin]
I believe that discussion came out of
15:36:47 [joesteele]
johnsim: Adrian were the slots requested for MSE and EME?
15:37:08 [adrianba]
F2F ->
15:37:12 [joesteele]
adrianba: yes
15:38:15 [joesteele]
ack joesteele
15:38:42 [adrianba]
Privacy issue ->
15:38:53 [adrianba]
zakim, who is noisy?
15:38:54 [joesteele]
Topic: Outstanding Bugs
15:39:04 [Zakim]
adrianba, listening for 10 seconds I heard sound from the following: Bin_Hu (49%)
15:39:34 [joesteele]
johnsim: what order should we take these in?
15:39:48 [ddorwin]
15:39:52 [joesteele]
ddorwin: revisit the original order
15:40:03 [joesteele]
... specific bug for media key err client
15:40:16 [ddorwin]
s/original order/original list/
15:40:18 [ddorwin]
15:40:19 [adrianba]
zakim, mute Bin_Hu
15:40:19 [Zakim]
Bin_Hu should now be muted
15:40:27 [ddorwin]
Should MEDIA_KEYERR_CLIENT be two separate errors?
15:40:43 [joesteele]
s/media key err client/MEDIA_KEYERR_CLIENT/
15:41:18 [joesteele]
ddorwin: should be some other errors I think, do we want to make this generic? think we need a larger discussion about the errors
15:42:14 [joesteele]
johnsim: have there been implementations that show these are not sufficient
15:42:34 [adrianba]
MEDIA_KEYERR_OUTPUT (numeric value 4)There is no available output device with the required characteristics for the content protection system.
15:42:34 [joesteele]
ddorwin: not sure what different between 4 and 5
15:42:37 [markw]
15:42:39 [joesteele]
15:42:42 [adrianba]
MEDIA_KEYERR_HARDWARECHANGE (numeric value 5)A hardware configuration change caused a content protection error.
15:42:54 [joesteele]
johnsim: should clarify these if not clear
15:43:10 [joesteele]
ack markw
15:43:26 [joesteele]
markw: your description of those two is correct
15:44:00 [joesteele]
markw: MEDIA_KEYERR_HARDWARECHANGE is when outputs have changed
15:44:26 [joesteele]
ddorwin: was a specific bug about how to use this?
15:44:40 [joesteele]
johnsim: an action item that we had not worked on?
15:44:57 [joesteele]
adrianba: bugs we took several months ago and things have changed since we took them
15:45:41 [joesteele]
... we have been trying to avoid errors when we playback content, rather signal to the app that it will not get the protection it was asking for
15:46:07 [joesteele]
... allow it to vary the content as a result. in general that is the approach we want to take, to avoid errors if possible.
15:46:54 [joesteele]
... the other part was for debugging we find that the level of granularity will not be sufficient, so we will need a system code to allow apps to understand what is going on
15:47:10 [joesteele]
... trying to understand what the balance is between generic errors and the system level codes
15:47:18 [ddorwin]
15:47:46 [ddorwin]
ack joe
15:48:45 [adrianba]
15:49:08 [joesteele]
joesteele: my definition of MEDIA_KEYERR_HARDWARECHANGE was very different -- tied to device binding
15:49:20 [joesteele]
johnsim: this is what can lead to a bad interop
15:49:28 [adrianba]
15:49:55 [joesteele]
johnsim: might be worth going over each error and discuss what each actually means and propose text
15:50:14 [joesteele]
... in this case we may be surfacing the need for a new error code
15:50:29 [joesteele]
... e.g. what joe and adrian were suggesting
15:50:32 [ddorwin]
ack me
15:51:06 [joesteele]
ddorwin: for those of us with CDM implementations to go back to our teams and determine what errors are actually needed
15:51:13 [joesteele]
... maybe using this list as a prompt
15:51:48 [joesteele]
... related to this, adrians proposal to not have as many generic errors, it would be nice for apps to display a generic error.
15:51:50 [joesteele]
15:52:16 [joesteele]
ddorwin: for example - you need a new client, or you plugged in a bad output
15:52:30 [joesteele]
... application may not want to have a detailed error msg for each key system
15:52:52 [johnsim]
15:52:56 [joesteele]
... may want a more general error
15:53:11 [joesteele]
ddorwin: adrian were you thinking we would still have a general error signal?
15:53:18 [joesteele]
.. or not have this
15:53:30 [joesteele]
s/\.\. or/... or/
15:53:49 [joesteele]
adrianba: had not reached a proposal yet, might be the same event or a different one
15:54:00 [joesteele]
... just that we may want an event to signal that status
15:54:46 [joesteele]
adrianba: think david summarized the right question - do we need more generic errors? or is that impractical and we should relay on something system specific?
15:54:52 [joesteele]
ack adrianba
15:54:57 [markw]
15:55:57 [joesteele]
ack me
15:56:16 [joesteele]
joesteele: need to focus on errors that mean something to the user
15:56:50 [joesteele]
adrianba: yes - have something that the user can take an action for
15:57:06 [markw]
ack me
15:57:06 [joesteele]
... maybe have one more error that a system specific error has occured
15:57:17 [joesteele]
johnsim: couple minutes left -- what next?
15:57:22 [ddorwin]
s/adrianba: yes - /markw:yes - /
15:57:58 [joesteele]
johnsim: should we adjourn?
15:58:24 [Zakim]
15:58:26 [joesteele]
ddorwin: I will be spending lots of time on bugs, please other editors do the same and folks who care about the bugs so we are ready
15:58:29 [adrianba]
15:58:47 [joesteele]
johnsim: see you all at the F2F -- next Tuesday/Wednesday
15:58:49 [Zakim]
15:58:52 [Zakim]
15:58:55 [Zakim]
15:58:56 [Zakim]
15:58:57 [Zakim]
15:58:59 [joesteele]
rrsagent, draft minutes
15:58:59 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate joesteele
15:59:00 [Zakim]
15:59:04 [adrianba]
thanks for chairing and scribing
15:59:11 [Zakim]
15:59:19 [joesteele]
rrsagent, draft minutes
15:59:19 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate joesteele
15:59:21 [Zakim]
16:01:17 [joesteele]
Present: ReimundoGarcia, johnsim, glenn, markw, joesteele, Bin_Hu
16:01:29 [Zakim]
- +1.425.202.aaff
16:01:30 [Zakim]
HTML_WG()11:00AM has ended
16:01:30 [Zakim]
Attendees were +1.212.512.aaaa, +1.417.671.aabb, +1.417.671.aacc, glenn, johnsim, markw, +1.408.536.aadd, +1.425.214.aaee, joesteele, Bin_Hu, ReimundoGarcia, +1.425.202.aaff,
16:01:30 [Zakim]
... BobLund, adrianba, Aaron_Colwell
16:01:41 [joesteele]
rrsagent, draft minutes
16:01:41 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate joesteele
16:01:56 [ddorwin]
zakim, aaff is me
16:01:56 [Zakim]
sorry, ddorwin, I do not recognize a party named 'aaff'
16:02:03 [joesteele]
Present: ReimundoGarcia, wseltzer
16:02:26 [joesteele]
Present: ddorwin
16:02:42 [joesteele]
rrsagent, draft minutes
16:02:42 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate joesteele
16:04:08 [joesteele]
Present: ddorwin, glenn, johnsim, markw, Bin_Hu, ReimundoGarcia, BobLund, adrianba, Aaron_Colwell, joesteele, wseltzer, acolwell
16:04:24 [joesteele]
rrsagent, draft minutes
16:04:24 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate joesteele
16:06:20 [joesteele]
Regrets: paulc
16:06:28 [joesteele]
rrsagent, draft minutes
16:06:28 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate joesteele
16:07:14 [joesteele]
Zakim, bye
16:07:14 [Zakim]
Zakim has left #html-media
16:07:21 [joesteele]
rrsagent, bye
16:07:21 [RRSAgent]
I see no action items