14:56:06 RRSAgent has joined #prov 14:56:06 logging to http://www.w3.org/2013/04/11-prov-irc 14:56:08 RRSAgent, make logs world 14:56:08 Zakim has joined #prov 14:56:10 Zakim, this will be PROV 14:56:10 ok, Luc; I see SW_(PROV)11:00AM scheduled to start in 4 minutes 14:56:10 Zakim, this will be PROV 14:56:11 Meeting: Provenance Working Group Teleconference 14:56:11 Date: 11 April 2013 14:56:12 ok, trackbot; I see SW_(PROV)11:00AM scheduled to start in 4 minutes 14:56:18 Agenda: http://www.w3.org/2011/prov/wiki/Meetings:Telecon2013.04.11 14:56:28 Chair: Luc Moreau 14:56:56 rrsagent, make logs public 14:57:15 Regrets: Ivan Herman, Tom De Nies, Sam Coppens 14:57:26 pgroth has joined #prov 14:57:32 SW_(PROV)11:00AM has now started 14:57:33 rrsagent, make logs public 14:57:39 +[IPcaller] 14:57:40 Topic: Admin 14:57:48 +CraigTrim 14:57:50 Zakim, [IPCaller] is me 14:57:50 +pgroth; got it 14:58:30 smiles has joined #prov 14:59:09 +??P9 14:59:37 jcheney has joined #prov 14:59:37 +??P13 14:59:45 Zakim, ??P9 is stain 14:59:45 +stain; got it 14:59:56 Zakim, ??P9 is also khalid 14:59:57 +jcheney 14:59:57 I don't understand '??P9 is also khalid', stain 15:00:07 ??P13 is smiles 15:00:14 zakim, ??P13 is smiles 15:00:15 +smiles; got it 15:01:35 Zakim, stain is with khalid 15:01:35 sorry, stain, I do not recognize a party named 'khalid' 15:02:06 hi, scribe is required please 15:02:09 Zakim, stain is with Khalid Belhajjame 15:02:09 I don't understand 'stain is with Khalid Belhajjame', stain 15:02:13 +Luc 15:02:20 I can scribe today 15:02:24 thanks simon 15:02:27 scribe: smiles 15:02:33 dgarijo has joined #prov 15:02:43 hook has joined #prov 15:03:01 +??P12 15:03:08 Zakim, ??P112 is me 15:03:08 sorry, dgarijo, I do not recognize a party named '??P112' 15:03:13 Zakim, ??P12 is me 15:03:13 +dgarijo; got it 15:03:23 Proposed: to approve the minutes of last week's teleconference 15:03:33 +1 15:03:34 http://www.w3.org/2011/prov/meeting/2013-04-04 15:03:44 +1 15:03:46 +1 15:03:48 +1 15:03:53 +1 15:04:09 RESOLVED: the minutes of last week's teleconference 15:04:19 topic: PR Voting 15:04:33 + +1.818.731.aaaa 15:04:42 Luc: For the last month, AC reps asked to express support or not on PROV specs 15:04:49 satya has joined #prov 15:04:59 ... concluded on 9th, and all the votes are positive except an abstention 15:05:21 +Satya_Sahoo 15:05:26 ... one voter made a few suggestions, but were not suitable or beyond the scope for the current stage of the process 15:05:34 zednik has joined #prov 15:05:38 q? 15:05:44 ... We will very shortly make the request to transfer to Recommendation 15:05:55 +??P28 15:05:56 topic: all publications 15:06:04 http://www.w3.org/2011/prov/wiki/PublicationRequestApril30 15:06:08 Dong has joined #prov 15:06:30 Luc: Have created a page on the Wiki, for editors to update when ready staged for publication 15:06:42 topic: REC are staged 15:06:53 - +1.818.731.aaaa 15:07:26 q? 15:07:27 khalidBelhajjame has joined #prov 15:07:27 Luc: The four Recommendations are staged, and we ask you to have a final look at one or more of them by the end of this week 15:07:39 + +1.818.731.aabb 15:07:44 q? 15:07:44 will look at prov-constraints 15:07:50 I will check prov-dm 15:07:59 q+ 15:08:05 +[IPcaller] 15:08:06 I will look PROV-N 15:08:17 I will look at PROV-N 15:08:24 ack pgroth 15:08:29 more like a sanity check 15:08:30 spelling errors 15:08:36 Luc: Not asking for review, just typos, layout etc. 15:08:47 q+ 15:08:58 Luc: Anyone for PROV-O? 15:08:58 I can also review 15:09:23 q? 15:09:24 q? 15:09:35 Luc: Questions on the process at this stage? 15:10:01 ack stain 15:10:06 stain: To read properly, some stylesheet problems, so use Firefox 15:10:09 topic: prov-aq 15:10:39 Luc: Any blocking issues? Changes implemented? Can close tracker issues? 15:10:50 graham? 15:11:13 zakim, who is here? 15:11:13 On the phone I see pgroth, CraigTrim, stain, smiles, jcheney, Luc, dgarijo, Satya_Sahoo, ??P28, +1.818.731.aabb, [IPcaller] 15:11:16 On IRC I see khalidBelhajjame, Dong, zednik, satya, hook, dgarijo, jcheney, smiles, pgroth, Zakim, RRSAgent, Luc, TallTed, GK-ALT, stain, trackbot 15:11:31 GK has joined #prov 15:11:34 pgroth: No blocking issues, people generally happy with approach 15:11:58 gk? 15:12:00 I've read through GK's response to my PROV-AQ review, but not sent a proper reply acknowledging that it's OK (as the response was also quite long!). However the PROV-AQ document is now fine from my part. 15:12:02 pgroth: Don't know if all issues closed 15:12:34 pgroth: I will do the staging, so will make sure issues are checked 15:12:43 Sorry I'm late - just getting audio set up… I haven't revisited the issues yet 15:12:55 Luc: Not a problem if not all issues addressed, but should have a record and close them 15:13:18 +??P18 15:13:25 zakim, ??p18 is me 15:13:25 +GK; got it 15:13:27 pgroth: I think we're ready to vote on PROV-AQ now 15:14:04 Zakim, stain is with khalidBelhajjame 15:14:04 sorry, stain, I do not recognize a party named 'khalidBelhajjame' 15:14:51 GK: Have not been back to check tracker issues, but believe all addressed; responded to all reviews received 15:15:16 ... A couple did not lead to a change in the document; if the reviewers are OK, then we can vote 15:15:25 that's a yes 15:15:56 Luc: As a reviewer, there is a point on which we will not agree, but that does not mean it is blocking 15:17:47 q+ 15:18:32 ack pg 15:18:51 TallTed has changed the topic to: Provenance WG -- http://www.w3.org/2011/prov/ -- agenda http://www.w3.org/2011/prov/wiki/Meetings:Telecon2013.04.11 15:18:58 ack pgroth 15:19:04 pgroth: External reviewer commenting on constrained resource, was based on misunderstanding that PROV-AQ was the fundamental document 15:19:10 PROPOSED: to publish prov-aq as a Working Group note. 15:19:17 +1 15:19:18 +1 15:19:22 +1 15:19:25 +1 15:19:26 +1 (University of Manchester) 15:19:29 +1 15:19:31 +1 15:19:32 +1 15:19:34 +1 15:19:34 +1 (I would say that wouldn't I :) ) 15:19:37 +1 15:19:42 +1 15:19:59 RESOLVED: to publish prov-aq as a Working Group note. 15:20:13 q? 15:20:16 Luc: Congratulations to the editors 15:20:28 @Paul - I should hand over to you in the next week. 15:20:51 Luc: Editors, remember the timetable: everything ready by 23 April when request will be made; I will make sanity check on 22nd 15:20:52 @GK cool, I'll stage and can close issues if need be 15:20:55 yes 15:20:56 q? 15:20:58 Ack. Thanks 15:21:08 topic: prov-primer 15:21:20 -??P28 15:21:24 Luc: We voted to publish primer last week 15:22:11 super echo 15:22:46 topic: PROV-LINKS 15:23:07 +??P49 15:23:18 Luc: Addressed all suggestions made by reviewers to PROV-Links, responded to reviewers 15:23:27 ... Are the reviewers happy to proceed to vote? 15:23:28 q? 15:23:30 Zakim, ??P49 is me 15:23:30 +Dong; got it 15:23:35 As a reviewer, I am happy 15:23:45 yes I am happy 15:23:45 FWIW, on PROV-AQ, all issues but 2 are marked "pending review", which means I think they are addressed. n The other two issues are not on the document itself, but require updates to the accompanying ontology document and link relation registrations.HTML 15:23:52 +1 15:24:01 PROPOSED: to publish prov-links as a Working Group note 15:24:05 +1 15:24:06 +1 15:24:08 +1 15:24:11 +1 15:24:12 +1 15:24:13 +1 15:24:22 +! 15:24:24 +1 15:24:26 +1 15:24:27 +1 15:24:38 +1 15:24:48 +1 15:24:58 RESOLVED: to publish prov-links as a Working Group note 15:25:19 -Dong 15:25:20 topic: prov-implementations 15:25:37 Luc: Agreed no further review of this document 15:25:41 +??P28 15:25:59 pgroth: Yes, the document is complete and ready for a vote 15:26:02 Dong: I staged it 15:26:14 PROPOSED: to publish prov-implementations as a Working Group note 15:26:19 +1 15:26:19 Sorry, got disconnected 15:26:20 +1 15:26:21 +1 15:26:21 +1 15:26:23 +1 15:26:23 +1 15:26:23 +1 15:26:24 +1 15:26:28 +! 15:26:30 +1 15:26:35 +1 15:26:56 hook? 15:26:57 RESOLVED: to publish prov-implementations as a Working Group note 15:27:17 Luc: Congratulations to editors, with 66 implementations 15:27:22 q? 15:27:31 Topic: prov-dc 15:28:03 dgarijo: With a new review, we have two blocking issues 15:28:25 q+ 15:28:31 ... will have to look at detail of rationale and discuss offline with Stian 15:28:40 Luc: Need to converge as soon as we can 15:29:15 stian have isVersionOf and references 15:29:33 stain: Main issue was about isVersionOf, said to be equivalent to wasRevisionOf, but in use is more like superproperty of wasRevisionOf 15:30:32 dgarijo: We decided to make equivalent because could not find any contradicting example 15:31:03 q+ 15:31:16 ... If have an example, can change back to as suggested 15:31:49 q+ 15:32:21 ack st 15:32:46 pgroth: Can somebody express the proposal? 15:32:52 the proposal is prov wasRevisionOf is a SUB property of is VersionOf 15:32:53 proposal of Stian is: wasRevisionOf is a subproperty of isVersionOf 15:33:06 which is the way we had it before. 15:33:08 stain: wasRevisionOf is subproperty of isVersionOf 15:33:14 can we use the namespace? 15:33:16 in the proposal 15:33:52 q? 15:33:58 stain: Will look for examples, and decide on whether they exist 15:34:00 ack pg 15:34:16 I did not find tem, unfortunately. 15:34:20 *them 15:34:35 Luc: Stian suggested making references subproperty of influences 15:34:55 dgarijo: replaces rather than references 15:35:24 http://www.w3.org/TR/prov-dm/#concept-influence 15:35:32 Influence ◊ is the capacity of an entity, activity, or agent to have an effect on the character, development, or behavior of another by means of usage, start, end, generation, invalidation, communication, derivation, attribution, association, or delegation. 15:35:49 It is recommended to adopt these more specific relations when writing provenance descriptions. It is anticipated that the Influence relation may be useful to express queries over provenance information. 15:36:05 Luc: Previously discussed another relation subproperty of wasInfluencedBy, but the way we defined influence is based on specific relations and recommend we adopt those specific relations 15:36:09 q+ that dct:references is such a more specific relation 15:36:21 ... Would seem strange to go against our recommendations in PROV-DC 15:36:30 q? 15:36:35 q+ 15:36:43 ack l 15:36:47 ... If replaces is not a derivation, we should say it is not modelled in PROV 15:37:15 stain: My view is that replaces is an influence but may not be a derivation 15:37:19 http://pav-ontology.googlecode.com/svn/trunk/pav.html#http://purl.org/pav/sourceAccessedAt 15:37:39 q? 15:37:48 q+ 15:37:57 ack st 15:38:39 q? 15:38:41 pgroth: Our recommendation says that you use specific relations in provenance descriptions, not in defining new relations, so maybe does not go against 15:39:07 q? 15:39:11 pg 15:39:14 ack pgroth 15:39:14 ... However, it does then suggest people should, when creating mappings, create subproperties of influences 15:39:39 it's none 15:39:55 Luc: Influence definition lists specific relation it could be, so which one is replaces? 15:39:58 q+ 15:40:12 +q 15:40:40 pgroth: It is clear that replaces is not a subproperty of any of those specific relations 15:40:56 ack pgroth 15:41:03 ack pg 15:41:08 -??P28 15:41:09 fair enough then 15:41:11 :-) 15:41:32 we're talking about references 15:41:43 no it's the other way around 15:41:48 we are only talking references 15:42:27 q? 15:42:50 +??P2 15:43:15 (As a general principle, I think specs should choose weaker ontological commitment when there is any dispute or uncertainty) 15:43:32 q+ but this would be really wierd 15:43:41 q+ 15:43:47 Luc: Should not shoehorn things into PROV if there is no consensus 15:43:54 this would be a weakening of wasDerivedBy if any kind of existence and mention means a derivation 15:44:31 ack dg 15:44:58 dgarijo: If we agree with references is subproperty of wasDerivedFrom then there is consensus 15:45:15 pgroth: Would be weird not to have a mapping of references in PROV-DC 15:45:26 stain: I disagree but willing to not block on it 15:45:35 dct:references is a subproperty of wasDerivedFrom. Thus it is already a wasInfluencedBy. 15:45:45 pgroth: I am fine with that 15:45:46 q+ 15:46:20 Luc: Not in a position to vote this week, as other issue still to be resolved 15:46:34 ("A related resource that is referenced, cited, or otherwise pointed to by the described resource." http://dublincore.org/documents/dcmi-terms/#terms-references) 15:46:37 dgarijo: Already implemented changes by Tom and Paul 15:46:48 q- 15:47:00 ... response not yet acknowledged 15:47:01 (This term is intended to be used with non-literal values as defined in the DCMI Abstract Model (http://dublincore.org/documents/abstract-model/). As of December 2007, the DCMI Usage Board is seeking a way to express this intention with a formal range declaration. Ibid.) 15:47:18 q? 15:47:29 q_ 15:47:30 ack pg 15:47:43 topic: prov-dictionary 15:48:04 (non-literal value 15:48:04 A value which is a physical, digital or conceptual entity.) 15:48:19 Luc: Tom suggested to vote next week 15:48:34 ... and leave technical dicsussion on the document to next week too 15:48:40 topic: prov-sem 15:49:02 @GK: Then you agree ordon't agree with isVersionOf being a superproperty of WasRevisionOf? 15:49:23 jcheney: Reviews are in, no blocking issues, people happy with closing tracked issues 15:49:42 ... Most of changes implemented, but with a couple of questions, need errata paragraph from Luc 15:50:18 @Dgarijo: Er, I'm not sure about that. 15:50:24 I am happy with the document 15:50:24 Luc: Ready for a vote? 15:50:27 yes 15:50:30 I am happy with the document too 15:50:39 yes 15:50:48 Luc: I was also happy 15:51:10 PROPOSED: to publish prov-sem as a Working Group note 15:51:16 +1 15:51:17 +1 15:51:17 +1 15:51:19 +1 15:51:19 +1 15:51:22 @dgarijo (I was just digging out DC material about dct references.) 15:51:23 +1 15:51:23 +1 15:51:25 +! 15:51:27 +1 15:51:31 +1 15:51:32 +1 15:51:43 RESOLVED: to publish prov-sem as a Working Group note 15:51:44 +1 15:51:45 (Haven't had time to review, but expect it's fine) 15:52:05 Luc: Congratulations to James 15:52:07 @jcheney - really good job 15:52:37 jcheney: Can check everyone that should be in acknowledgement and contributor lists is there? 15:52:39 topic: prov-xml 15:53:04 @GK: Ok! My main problem is that both DC and PROV don't characterize thw features of a "revision". Since I didn't find examples of use that could contradict one being subclass of another, I just put it as an equivalent class 15:53:18 zednik: Two reviews in, none are blocking but lots of small changes that will be made by Tuesday 15:53:26 I mean, equivalent property. 15:53:34 ... a couple of larger issues may take a little longer, but straightfowards 15:53:49 henry 15:54:16 q? 15:54:26 q+ 15:54:26 jcheney: Henry from Edinburgh said he would look at PROV-XML but has not been able to yet, may not in time for us 15:54:42 q? 15:54:47 Luc: Vote next week after changes 15:55:09 pgroth: Want to discuss inclusion of XSD in the appendix 15:55:14 ack pg 15:55:19 cool 15:55:22 zednik: Will add an issue to the tracker 15:55:33 topic: prov-overview 15:55:46 Luc: Now ready for review 15:56:06 pgroth: Some people looked at it, and made minor changes 15:56:26 q? 15:56:36 Luc: Volunteers to read PROV-Overview? 15:56:50 ok 15:56:53 I can review it 15:57:02 @dgarijo ah, I see. If it's not clear what they mean, I'd personally probably avoid creating the ontological commitment. The concern is that if they turn out to be incompatible, you can end up with unsatisfiable (or not satisfiable in any expected sense of their meaning) expressions. OTOH, with ontological under commitment, then you may have ambiguity but that can be fixed later by adding more constraining statement later. 15:57:19 Luc: James and Daniel will review PROV-Overview 15:57:37 q? 15:57:47 topic: provenance of documents 15:57:48 Luc: Please let us know of blocking issues ahead of call, so that Paul can address before we vote 15:57:58 https://dvcs.w3.org/hg/prov/raw-file/default/provenance/test/prov-family.svg 15:58:11 https://github.com/lucmoreau/ProvToolbox/blob/newschema/prov-n/src/test/resources/prov/prov-family.provn 15:58:32 Luc: Created provenance of prov documents above 15:58:58 ... Would like various editors check for their own documents that dates, authors, etc are correct 15:59:31 @GK: By looking just at the definitions I would say that we should have it as Stian proposed (which is the way we had it originally). But the lack of counter examples made me have it the way it's now. That is why I have to review Stian's examples b_) 15:59:34 Luc: May also want to check attributed correctly for other documents 15:59:38 q? 15:59:53 so you want emails for corrections? 15:59:55 topic: Closing issues in tracker 15:59:59 bad noise 16:00:13 zakim, who is noisy? 16:00:24 pgroth, listening for 10 seconds I heard sound from the following: Luc (31%), stain (5%) 16:00:32 sorry. Old phone! 16:01:05 pgroth: Dereferencing namespace issue: we already do so, but Tim will update 16:01:34 http://www.w3.org/2011/prov/track/products/7 16:01:53 serioously, now my mobile is off! 16:01:54 Luc: Best practice cookbook issues, are they still relevant? 16:02:01 zakim, mute stain 16:02:01 stain should now be muted 16:02:18 where is the best practice cookbook document? I think we removed it 16:02:36 pgroth: Need to ask Tim, as these are all things not to go in ontology but separate explanations 16:02:50 +q 16:02:51 action tlebo to look into issues he raised http://www.w3.org/2011/prov/track/products/7 16:02:51 Created ACTION-171 - Look into issues he raised http://www.w3.org/2011/prov/track/products/7 [on Timothy Lebo - due 2013-04-18]. 16:02:58 pgroth: Should either put in FAQ or close them 16:03:04 @paul re ISSUE-222, did you consider a data: URI? 16:03:12 q? 16:03:15 dgarijo: not maintained :( https://dvcs.w3.org/hg/prov/raw-file/tip/bestpractices/BestPractices.html 16:03:22 https://dvcs.w3.org/hg/prov/raw-file/tip/bestpractices/BestPractices.html 16:03:44 dgarijo: The issues relate to document (above) started but not continued, so do not apply any more 16:03:59 q? 16:04:05 ack dga 16:04:08 bye 16:04:08 -dgarijo 16:04:09 bye all 16:04:09 bye 16:04:10 -jcheney 16:04:11 -q 16:04:11 -Satya_Sahoo 16:04:15 Bye 16:04:17 -stain 16:04:18 - +1.818.731.aabb 16:04:19 -[IPcaller] 16:04:20 -Luc 16:04:23 -pgroth 16:04:24 -GK 16:05:13 -??P2 16:06:05 -CraigTrim 16:06:11 GK has left #prov 16:09:49 -smiles 16:09:49 SW_(PROV)11:00AM has ended 16:09:49 Attendees were CraigTrim, pgroth, stain, jcheney, smiles, Luc, dgarijo, +1.818.731.aaaa, Satya_Sahoo, +1.818.731.aabb, [IPcaller], GK, Dong 18:19:13 Zakim has left #prov