IRC log of i18n on 2013-04-11

Timestamps are in UTC.

15:04:00 [RRSAgent]
RRSAgent has joined #i18n
15:04:00 [RRSAgent]
logging to
15:04:02 [trackbot]
RRSAgent, make logs world
15:04:02 [Zakim]
Zakim has joined #i18n
15:04:04 [trackbot]
Zakim, this will be 4186
15:04:04 [Zakim]
ok, trackbot; I see I18N_CoreWG()11:00AM scheduled to start 4 minutes ago
15:04:05 [trackbot]
Meeting: Internationalization Working Group Teleconference
15:04:05 [trackbot]
Date: 11 April 2013
15:04:16 [r12a-limechat]
zakim, dial richard
15:04:17 [Zakim]
ok, r12a-limechat; the call is being made
15:04:21 [Norbert]
zakim, who is noisy?
15:04:21 [Zakim]
sorry, Norbert, I don't know what conference this is
15:04:34 [r12a-limechat]
ouch, noisy!
15:04:36 [aphillip]
zakim, this is I18N
15:04:36 [Zakim]
ok, aphillip; that matches I18N_CoreWG()11:00AM
15:04:45 [Norbert]
zakim, who is noisy?
15:04:52 [Zakim]
15:04:55 [Zakim]
Norbert, listening for 10 seconds I could not identify any sounds
15:04:59 [r12a-limechat]
15:05:14 [r12a-limechat]
zakim, mute ??P18
15:05:15 [Zakim]
??P18 should now be muted
15:05:24 [r12a-limechat]
who is ??P18 ?
15:05:40 [aphillip]
trackbot, prepare teleconference
15:05:42 [trackbot]
RRSAgent, make logs world
15:05:44 [trackbot]
Zakim, this will be 4186
15:05:45 [Zakim]
ok, trackbot; I see I18N_CoreWG()11:00AM scheduled to start 5 minutes ago
15:05:45 [trackbot]
Meeting: Internationalization Working Group Teleconference
15:05:45 [trackbot]
Date: 11 April 2013
15:06:52 [r12a-limechat]
??P18 you can link to irc on
15:07:08 [r12a-limechat]
zakim, unmute ??P18
15:07:08 [Zakim]
sorry, r12a-limechat, I don't know what conference this is
15:07:24 [r12a-limechat]
zakim, this is i18n
15:07:24 [Zakim]
ok, r12a-limechat; that matches I18N_CoreWG()11:00AM
15:07:35 [r12a-limechat]
zakim, who's here?
15:07:35 [Zakim]
On the phone I see Norbert, ??P18 (muted), Richard, aphillip
15:07:37 [Zakim]
On IRC I see RRSAgent, r12a-too, aphillip, Norbert, r12a-limechat, trackbot
15:07:45 [r12a-limechat]
zakim, unmute ??P18
15:07:45 [Zakim]
??P18 should no longer be muted
15:07:52 [aphillip]
agenda+ bidi
15:08:06 [aphillip]
agenda+ HTML longdesc
15:08:26 [aphillip]
agenda+ review radar
15:08:29 [r12a-limechat]
zakim, drop ??P18
15:08:29 [Zakim]
??P18 is being disconnected
15:08:31 [Zakim]
15:09:12 [r12a-limechat]
zakim, who's here?
15:09:12 [Zakim]
On the phone I see Norbert, Richard, aphillip
15:09:13 [Zakim]
On IRC I see RRSAgent, aphillip, Norbert, r12a-limechat, trackbot
15:09:23 [aphillip]
15:09:29 [aphillip]
Chair: Addison Phillips
15:09:30 [JcK]
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15:09:42 [aphillip]
agenda+ ITS and ruby
15:10:23 [Zakim]
15:10:26 [aphillip]
ScribeNick: aphillip
15:10:45 [aphillip]
Topic: Agenda
15:10:48 [aphillip]
15:11:11 [aphillip]
Topic: Action Items
15:12:00 [r12a-limechat]
15:12:40 [aphillip]
action-170: richard has ported document to respec
15:12:40 [trackbot]
Notes added to ACTION-170 Coordinate with richard regarding KLReq.
15:12:49 [aphillip]
... and is close to html5
15:13:19 [aphillip]
... sent to the Korean guys to fill in the Korean
15:13:30 [aphillip]
... and enlisted three of the six authors
15:14:14 [najib-ma]
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15:14:16 [aphillip]
... a few questions in document
15:14:25 [aphillip]
... need to know if will cover before review
15:14:35 [aphillip]
... also whether to wait on korean version
15:14:45 [aphillip]
... then will come to group looking for wide review
15:15:05 [Najib-ma_]
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15:15:56 [aphillip]
close ACTION-200
15:15:57 [trackbot]
Closed ACTION-200 Remind folks to review ITS item in the winter 388 email for next time (4 April).
15:16:36 [aphillip]
close ACTION-202
15:16:36 [trackbot]
Closed ACTION-202 Say we're satisfied with storageSize in ITS 2.0.
15:16:54 [aphillip]
Topic: Info Share
15:16:57 [fsasaki]
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15:16:59 [aharon]
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15:17:00 [aphillip]
rrsagent, draft minutes
15:17:00 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate aphillip
15:17:14 [r12a]
15:17:21 [Najib-ma_]
Najib-ma_ has left #i18n
15:17:21 [aphillip]
richard: announced conf on ebooks
15:17:26 [aphillip]
... link above
15:17:36 [aphillip]
... idea is to get people from diff. languages and scripts
15:17:38 [Najib-ma_]
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15:17:51 [aphillip]
... raise issues in HTML5 and CSS that underlie ebooks
15:18:05 [aphillip]
.. and prioritize, feed to IG that is proposed
15:18:16 [aphillip]
... about ebooks in w3 technology
15:18:17 [Zakim]
15:18:30 [aphillip]
norbert: plans to crash that party
15:19:35 [r12a]
15:19:49 [aphillip]
richard: created an indic layout task force
15:19:58 [aphillip]
... had a few people join the list
15:20:07 [Najib-ma_]
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15:20:10 [aharon]
zakim, mute me
15:20:10 [Zakim]
aharon should now be muted
15:20:35 [r12a]
15:20:35 [aphillip]
action: richard: link indic TF's home page
15:20:35 [trackbot]
Created ACTION-204 - Link indic TF's home page [on Richard Ishida - due 2013-04-18].
15:20:43 [Najib-ma_]
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15:20:51 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate aphillip
15:21:02 [aphillip]
15:21:24 [aphillip]
zakim, take up agendum 2
15:21:24 [Zakim]
agendum 2. "HTML longdesc" taken up [from aphillip]
15:21:45 [r12a]
15:21:57 [aphillip]
richard: read longdesc
15:22:12 [Najib-ma]
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15:22:22 [aphillip]
richard: came up with two things
15:22:26 [aphillip]
... one is editorial nit
15:23:18 [aphillip]
... the other is that "invalid content" can be made available
15:23:23 [fsasaki_]
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15:23:28 [aphillip]
richard: suggests that shouldn't be let off
15:23:52 [aphillip]
... because it'll become confusing
15:24:17 [aphillip]
... and de facto supported and would need stuf like bidi and language and other markup
15:24:26 [aharon]
I agree about non-url in longdesc
15:24:26 [aphillip]
richard: okay to send?
15:25:02 [aphillip]
norbert: first one non-WG?
15:25:08 [aphillip]
addison: agree
15:25:15 [aphillip]
norbert: second one yes
15:25:19 [aphillip]
addison: agree
15:25:44 [aphillip]
chair: approve
15:26:19 [aphillip]
action: richard: send longdesc comment to HTML-WG
15:26:19 [trackbot]
Created ACTION-205 - Send longdesc comment to HTML-WG [on Richard Ishida - due 2013-04-18].
15:26:25 [aphillip]
15:27:04 [aharon]
zakim, unmute me
15:27:04 [Zakim]
aharon should no longer be muted
15:27:30 [aphillip]
zakim, take up agendum 1
15:27:30 [Zakim]
agendum 1. "bidi" taken up [from aphillip]
15:27:36 [r12a]
15:27:37 [aphillip]
richard: working on wiki this week
15:27:43 [aphillip]
... maybe discuss
15:28:09 [aphillip]
richard: aharon gave me some text to use
15:28:19 [aphillip]
... "do we still need isolate embeddings"
15:28:33 [aphillip]
... aharon suggesting:
15:28:38 [r12a]
Unfortunately, existing bidi pages contain all sorts of bidi cruft that
15:28:39 [r12a]
> only works given the old embed semantics (and may not work in modern
15:28:39 [r12a]
> versions of Internet Explorer). This does not mean that embed semantics
15:28:40 [r12a]
> really are necessary. The desired outcome can still be obtained with
15:28:42 [r12a]
> isolate semantics, usually with simpler, clearer markup. Here are a
15:28:44 [r12a]
> couple of examples.
15:29:13 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate aphillip
15:29:24 [aphillip]
richard: been downplaying problem, thinking not that large
15:29:33 [aphillip]
... but solution A could break a lot of pages?
15:29:40 [aphillip]
... is that not necessarily case?
15:29:46 [aphillip]
... question for aharon
15:29:49 [aphillip]
... also...
15:29:55 [aphillip]
... if change semantics of @dir
15:30:20 [fsasaki]
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15:30:21 [aphillip]
... maybe add @isolate that is default on
15:30:34 [aphillip]
... and use @isolate=no to turn off
15:32:23 [aphillip]
addison: breaks existing pages?
15:32:38 [aphillip]
aharon: mentioning as possibility
15:32:41 [aphillip]
... not a new idea
15:32:45 [aphillip]
... html came up with it
15:32:51 [aphillip]
... but in opposite direction
15:33:05 [aphillip]
... add @isolate=on to turn on
15:33:25 [aphillip]
... need to dispose of idea, must deal with it
15:33:32 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate aphillip
15:33:50 [aphillip]
aharon: not sure about the question?
15:33:58 [aphillip]
... didn't intend to worry you :-)
15:34:08 [aphillip]
... IE semantics changed
15:34:18 [aphillip]
... is pages depend on this, got broke in IE
15:34:34 [aphillip]
... so not so worried about it
15:34:43 [aphillip]
... more concerned about different idea
15:34:52 [aphillip]
... old embed semantics in some applications or cases
15:35:00 [aphillip]
... might be a reason to use them
15:35:06 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate aphillip
15:35:13 [aphillip]
aharon: wanted to explore
15:35:19 [aphillip]
... concluded that it si not true
15:35:23 [aphillip]
15:35:42 [aphillip]
norbert: embedding semantics were wrong all along?
15:35:56 [aphillip]
aharon: no, but pages that depend on them work better with isolate
15:36:58 [aphillip]
aharon: browsers no longer interop anyway
15:37:08 [aphillip]
norbert: not a problem for anybody?
15:37:39 [aphillip]
richard: two exmaples used are not affected on IE
15:37:56 [aphillip]
aharon: examples no longer work on IE
15:38:13 [aphillip]
... if you load local page, it uses IE7 semantics
15:38:21 [aphillip]
... if you load from web
15:38:29 [aphillip]
... uses IE9 semantics
15:38:53 [aphillip]
richard: some things work better because of IE
15:39:06 [aphillip]
... text made is sound like breaking huge number of pages
15:39:14 [aphillip]
... maybe some but not desparately bad
15:39:30 [aphillip]
aharon: this is the para about bidi cruft?
15:39:43 [aphillip]
... try to review that one
15:39:56 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate aphillip
15:40:07 [aphillip]
richard: includes workarounds there
15:40:17 [aphillip]
... <quotes page>
15:40:19 [r12a]
Here are a couple of examples of edge cases where authors have put workarounds in place that try to make embedded text behave like isolated text. This bidi cruft only works given the old embed semantics
15:40:26 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate aphillip
15:40:32 [aphillip]
aharon: will reconsider para
15:40:40 [aphillip]
richard: still on track for solution A being preferred
15:40:44 [aphillip]
... think it is best
15:40:51 [aphillip]
... change semantics of @dir to make isolating
15:40:56 [aphillip]
aharon: agre
15:41:06 [aphillip]
JcK: agree
15:41:07 [Najib-ma]
I'm not hot to change semantic of @dir
15:41:32 [aphillip]
richard: means to reply to Najib's email
15:41:49 [aphillip]
aharon: I sent a reply, need to refresh memory of that
15:42:03 [aphillip]
norbert: last week mostly discussed B
15:42:06 [aphillip]
15:42:24 [aphillip]
norbert: need to refresh
15:44:00 [r12a]
15:44:11 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate aphillip
15:44:48 [aphillip]
aharon: once spec changes, FF, Chrome will rapidly update
15:45:00 [aphillip]
... and IE is already incompatible and mostly isolates
15:45:08 [aphillip]
... so this will improve interop
15:45:11 [aphillip]
... for authors
15:45:36 [aphillip]
... never explained and use of @dir *usage* doesn't really change
15:46:07 [aphillip]
... use of LRM etc.
15:46:09 [aphillip]
15:46:23 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate aphillip
15:46:52 [aphillip]
richard: gimme a day or so to finish up changes
15:46:59 [aphillip]
... aharon to add some text
15:47:05 [aphillip]
... will send to list
15:47:12 [aphillip]
... suggesting a read-over
15:48:32 [aphillip]
action: richard: to announce to the member list for review next week with a goal of publishing for wide revew
15:48:33 [trackbot]
Created ACTION-206 - Announce to the member list for review next week with a goal of publishing for wide revew [on Richard Ishida - due 2013-04-18].
15:48:47 [aphillip]
s/announce/announce bidi wiki/
15:49:12 [aphillip]
15:49:33 [aphillip]
aharon: wanted to update on an issue
15:49:43 [aphillip]
... bug on html5
15:49:47 [aphillip]
... dir=auto
15:49:54 [aphillip]
... and human readable attributes
15:50:00 [AndroUser2]
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15:50:02 [aphillip]
... like @title or @placeholder
15:50:21 [aphillip]
... asked for a simple thing
15:50:26 [aphillip]
... if element with @dir=auto