IRC log of gld on 2013-04-11

Timestamps are in UTC.

08:05:46 [RRSAgent]
RRSAgent has joined #gld
08:05:46 [RRSAgent]
logging to http://www.w3.org/2013/04/11-gld-irc
08:06:19 [PhilA3]
zakim, dial GLDMeetingRoom
08:06:19 [Zakim]
sorry, PhilA3, I don't know what conference this is
08:06:25 [PhilA3]
zakim, this is gld
08:06:25 [Zakim]
ok, PhilA3; that matches T&S_(GLD)3:00AM
08:06:33 [PhilA3]
zakim, dial GLDMeetingRoom
08:06:33 [Zakim]
ok, PhilA3; the call is being made
08:06:34 [Zakim]
+GLDMeetingRoom
08:06:57 [BartvanLeeuwen]
BartvanLeeuwen has joined #gld
08:07:04 [PhilA3]
we are connected to zakim
08:07:23 [bhyland]
zakim, who is on the call?
08:07:23 [Zakim]
On the phone I see ??P0, +34.63.926.aaaa, GLDMeetingRoom
08:07:43 [MakxDekkers]
zakim, aaaa is me
08:07:43 [Zakim]
+MakxDekkers; got it
08:07:53 [HadleyBeeman]
Agenda: http://www.w3.org/2011/gld/wiki/F2F3
08:08:09 [MakxDekkers]
I am in Barcelona, late start 10 am
08:08:14 [martinA]
zakim, ??p0 is me
08:08:14 [Zakim]
+martinA; got it
08:08:48 [Zakim]
+[IPcaller]
08:09:45 [cygri]
cygri has joined #gld
08:09:58 [MakxDekkers]
can we get visual maybe through skype?
08:11:56 [MakxDekkers]
my apologies for falling ill, would have loved to be there
08:12:22 [PhilA3]
zakim, GLDMeetingRoom has bhyland, BartvanLeeuwen, cygri, Christophe, PhilA3
08:12:23 [Zakim]
+bhyland, BartvanLeeuwen, cygri, Christophe, PhilA3; got it
08:12:44 [HadleyBeeman]
zakim, GLDMeetingRoom has me
08:12:44 [Zakim]
+HadleyBeeman; got it
08:12:51 [PhilA]
chair: Bernadette
08:13:06 [PhilA]
meeting: GLD Face to Face meeting Day 1
08:13:32 [PhilA]
PhilA has changed the topic to: GLD Face to Face meeting day 1, Croke Park Dublin
08:14:05 [PhilA]
topic: Quick review of European data Forum
08:14:14 [PhilA]
rrsagent, make logs public
08:14:39 [PhilA]
bhyland: Invites those who were at the EDF to give a quick review
08:15:19 [PhilA]
Christophe: Lots of people saying that big data is just data. Goof talk from Siemens.
08:15:25 [PhilA]
... I did a demo on the 2nd day
08:15:36 [PhilA]
... had lots of visits from Dutch people
08:15:58 [PhilA]
BartvanLeeuwen: It was interesting. less tech than I usually go to, more polcy than I'm used to
08:16:16 [PhilA]
... lots of stuff about big data but there was a lot about semantics of data
08:16:32 [PhilA]
... lots of talks about linked data and big data in the same project
08:16:48 [PhilA]
... blown away by talk from Daimler - who knew they were using linked data
08:17:58 [PhilA]
bhyland: So good to hear the Daimler CEO coming out and using the term linked data. Very polished promotional piece may or may not be accurate reflection
08:18:08 [PhilA]
zakim, GLDMeetingRoom has Boris
08:18:08 [Zakim]
+Boris; got it
08:18:37 [PhilA]
Boris: +1 to Bart. People were asking about best practices for LD
08:19:03 [PhilA]
bhyland: Have you put your company in the directory, Boris?
08:19:20 [PhilA]
Boris: Not yet, I thought it was gov only. Will fix
08:19:40 [MakxDekkers]
zakim, mute me
08:19:40 [Zakim]
MakxDekkers should now be muted
08:19:52 [PhilA]
cygri: I only saw the second half of the second day. Great venue
08:20:01 [PhilA]
s/Very polished promotional piece may or may not be accurate reflection//
08:20:05 [boris]
boris has joined #gld
08:20:35 [PhilA]
cygri: I've only known Croke Park as a sports venue. Weird irish sports get played here. Didn't know about the conference centre
08:20:51 [PhilA]
bhyland: Europe's 4th largest stadium 82K people
08:21:28 [PhilA]
cygri: Hurling is the biggie here - a cross between hockey and murder
08:22:24 [PhilA]
zakim, who is here?
08:22:24 [Zakim]
On the phone I see martinA, MakxDekkers (muted), GLDMeetingRoom, DaveReynolds
08:22:26 [Zakim]
GLDMeetingRoom has Boris
08:22:26 [Zakim]
On IRC I see boris, cygri, BartvanLeeuwen, RRSAgent, HadleyBeeman, Zakim, PhilA, martinA, MakxDekkers, bhyland, DaveReynolds, sandro, trackbot
08:23:29 [PhilA]
HadleyBeeman: I only saw some of the presentations. Some of seemed the messages we've been saying and hearing for a while. Shows importance of our work and related work
08:23:30 [cygri]
(here's an excellent recent hurling game played in croke park: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vai3Gzd-ilw )
08:24:29 [PhilA]
HadleyBeeman: Lots of projects were EU funded - lots of projects seemed to be straight translations from one language to another. Lots of machine translation
08:26:10 [bhyland]
PhilA: Multilingual issues are more prevalent in EU discussions than the greater LD community has dedicated time & effort to. This doesn't make sense given the depth of multi-lingual expertise that W3C WG's possesses.
08:26:26 [bhyland]
… We determined we could make DCAT available in at least 6 languages by 12noon today.
08:27:05 [bhyland]
Hadley: John Sheridan said Legislative.gov.uk is about to be launched in Welsh shortly.
08:27:32 [bhyland]
s/legislative.gov.uk/legislation.gov.uk
08:27:49 [PhilA]
BartvanLeeuwen: Maybe we've failed to highlight the multilingual nature of LD
08:28:11 [MakxDekkers]
quality not briklliant here
08:28:18 [PhilA]
s/Legislative.gov.uk/legislation.gov.uk/
08:28:38 [fadmaa]
fadmaa has joined #gld
08:28:40 [PhilA]
zakim, GLDMeetingRoom has Deirdre
08:28:40 [Zakim]
+Deirdre; got it
08:28:44 [MakxDekkers]
sound quality I mean
08:29:12 [MakxDekkers]
can hear about 50% of what is said
08:29:18 [PhilA]
Deirdre: The feedback I was getting about the networking etc. was positive. Lots of use cases and the like shown
08:29:26 [HadleyBeeman]
zakim, GLDMeetingRoom has fadmaa
08:29:26 [Zakim]
+fadmaa; got it
08:29:57 [PhilA]
bhyland: What was the most challenging part
08:30:22 [PhilA]
Deirdre: the EC was behind it so funding wasn't the biggest problem. Other sponsors brought validation to the event
08:30:39 [PhilA]
... we targeted different communities wrt. invited speakers
08:31:01 [PhilA]
... only the second year but the reputation is growing. Athens in 2014
08:31:45 [PhilA]
bhyland: It was excellent. I went to a NIST conference a while back - it was free, in Maryland. Bumped into LDP WG, lots of standards bodies
08:32:01 [PhilA]
... very academic. Lots of PhDs, more like the Siemens, StatOil talks from EDF
08:32:54 [PhilA]
bhyland: Maybe more tracks are useful at these things but it's also good to get everyone together. Conferences don't always do that
08:33:49 [PhilA]
bhyland: Interesting that privacy and security issues are so important here. Not talked about nearly as much in the US
08:34:12 [PhilA]
HadleyBeeman: The Data Protection Directive is an issue - not an American concept
08:34:50 [PhilA]
bhyland: We have nothing like Directives, or FP7 funding
08:35:18 [PhilA]
... lots of cases where one project didn't know about what another was doing - when they actually are doing the same thing
08:35:43 [PhilA]
bhyland: Makes me think better about the Community Directory as a poss tool to help that.
08:36:39 [PhilA]
Deirdre: On the issue of it being less tech than expected that's useful feedback for next year
08:37:34 [PhilA]
bhyland: Odd to hear about European Linked Data (isn't it global?)
08:37:50 [PhilA]
Room explains EU funding to Bernadette
08:43:09 [HadleyBeeman]
We're now reviewing the semantics of clotted vs whipped cream.
08:43:57 [cygri]
q+
08:44:05 [HadleyBeeman]
And what soda bread is/tastes like. Interesting ramifications of localisation there.
08:44:53 [PhilA]
Deirdre: Interesting point about non European funding, how to get EU funded and others linking/working together
08:47:35 [cygri]
q?
08:48:47 [PhilA]
ack cygri
08:48:49 [PhilA]
cygri: Just pointing to the agenda...
08:48:59 [PhilA]
bhyland: We're agenda bashing...
08:49:12 [PhilA]
... and collecting observations from the conference
08:49:54 [PhilA]
zakim, GLDMeetingRoom has Ghislain
08:49:54 [Zakim]
+Ghislain; got it
08:50:08 [MakxDekkers]
can't really hear what he is saying
08:50:23 [MakxDekkers]
maybe just me?
08:50:44 [PhilA]
Ghislain: I thought it was excellent. I didn't get a huge output for myself but I wasn't expecting much. Really enjoyed it
08:50:58 [MakxDekkers]
OK will try to follow on IRC
08:51:04 [MakxDekkers]
what was that
08:51:10 [DaveReynolds]
Only if it's easy, audio is the main thing
08:51:18 [PhilA]
Discussion of setting up a Google Hangout for streaming
08:51:41 [PhilA]
Please put your Google e-mail address so we can invite you in
08:52:00 [MakxDekkers]
makx.dekkers@gmail.com
08:52:11 [PhilA]
topic: Agenda bashing
08:52:26 [PhilA]
Boris: I have to leave before lunch
08:52:31 [PhilA]
Christophe: I leave shortly after lunch
08:53:06 [PhilA]
Others here for the duration
08:53:56 [MakxDekkers]
try to have luch when you ahve
08:54:03 [MakxDekkers]
yes
08:54:26 [martinA]
your 1600
08:55:00 [cygri]
q+
08:55:37 [PhilA]
s/makx.dekkers@gmail.com//
08:55:41 [PhilA]
ack cygri
08:55:56 [PhilA]
cygri: Topic to discuss - what's going to happen with the WG?
08:56:25 [PhilA]
cygri: We've been told that we are not getting a charter extension as things stand. So we're rushing to get things done in time
08:56:43 [gatemezi]
gatemezi has joined #gld
08:56:50 [PhilA]
cygri: If going to a 2nd Last Call means that's the last thing we have time for then that affects tech decisions and that's not the right way round
08:57:01 [DaveReynolds]
+1 to cygri request, key issue to understand
08:57:32 [bhyland]
+1 because it impacts much of how we proceed today and for next month
08:57:34 [BartvanLeeuwen]
+1
08:57:39 [HadleyBeeman]
PhilA: for the group to get an extension (here), we have to get everything to CR.
08:57:42 [DeirdreLee]
DeirdreLee has joined #gld
08:58:01 [MakxDekkers]
in hangout now, can see you!
08:58:05 [HadleyBeeman]
… Then, come end may, we can be reasonably confident that we can have an extension.
08:58:15 [HadleyBeeman]
s/come end may/come the end of May
08:58:29 [HadleyBeeman]
…The extra effort that has gone on recently has made a big difference.
08:58:47 [DaveReynolds]
q+
08:59:09 [HadleyBeeman]
… What comes after that is a topic for debate (on agenda for tomorrow). What do you want to do next? We in the W3C have been discussing the possibilities.
08:59:43 [HadleyBeeman]
… Conversations were primarily on "is RDF finished"? If so, what impact does that have on our Semantic Web Activity?
08:59:56 [DaveReynolds]
q-
09:00:23 [bhyland]
… W3C Mgmt having serious discussions regarding maturity of RDF specifications, as well as broader Open Data on the Web
09:00:25 [HadleyBeeman]
… What I've been putting in is that we need to talk about open data, and linked data within it. We also need to talk about data validation (which is why we have the Open Data on the Web workshop)
09:00:54 [HadleyBeeman]
… That workshop will be important in setting the agenda for what happens to this working group's work.
09:01:44 [HadleyBeeman]
… And what working groups will come out of this. A number of people (including DaveReynolds) have been talking about closing the world for RDF. A workshop is being planned in the autumn to explore that.
09:02:05 [bhyland]
s/setting the agenda for what happens to this/ setting the agenda for what comes after this
09:02:17 [HadleyBeeman]
… We need to broaden the scope to talk about open data. Break down the religious wars between JSON and XML, etc.
09:02:32 [DaveReynolds]
q+
09:04:01 [HadleyBeeman]
… This group is making very good progress to getting towards finishing its charter. Over the summer, things should be in CR. Most of what we're talking about is already implemented. We shouldn't have too much complicated discussions. Therefore, it's realistic to think that three months after the end of May, we could have the rec-track docs as full recommendations. At the end of that period, the new working group will be in play.
09:04:26 [cygri]
q+
09:04:34 [HadleyBeeman]
… This planning has to go through the W3C planning process, consultations with us, and the membership as well.
09:05:17 [HadleyBeeman]
bhyland: summer is misleading; we're talking about may 31 onwards.
09:05:51 [HadleyBeeman]
phila: Our charter extension will probably be for June, July and August, and will say something along the lines of "this is to get the rec-track documents to the end of the process."
09:05:51 [bhyland]
s/Over the summer, things should be in CR/By end of GLD charter, deliverables should be in CR
09:07:05 [DaveReynolds]
ack me
09:08:06 [HadleyBeeman]
PhilA: Perhaps I should say, the key is "are the documents at the stage, by the end of May, that we could reaonsably see them getting to Rec within three months"
09:08:37 [PhilA]
DaveReynolds: So if, say, DCAT isn't quite at CR by 31 May, does that mean we don't get an extension?
09:09:17 [PhilA]
PhilA: No, it's not that hard and fast. The test is, are documents sufficiently stable that they could realistically be moved to Rec by the end of a 3 month extension
09:09:55 [PhilA]
cygri: So we have to decide whether we want to actively avoid a second last call. How much of an influence should process be?
09:10:20 [PhilA]
cygri: I'm not as optimistic as PhilA to get everything to CR by the end of May if we go through a second LC
09:10:40 [PhilA]
... some of the comment were quite substantive and might take several weeks to get through
09:11:25 [PhilA]
... I don't want to jeopardise other specs because DCAT isn't quite finished on time.
09:12:53 [PhilA]
bhyland: W3C is reasonable. It won't shut things down that are active and making progress
09:13:16 [MakxDekkers]
point of order: how does this discussion relate to the agenda? Not trying to be pedantic but trying to organise my time today and tomorrow.
09:13:51 [MakxDekkers]
OK
09:14:07 [PhilA]
bhyland: The reason Richard asked is because it frames the discussion he's going to be leading soon
09:14:38 [PhilA]
bhyland: We have similar issues around the BP doc. Timing affects some decisions on what is left in vs what we can get done
09:15:11 [PhilA]
HadleyBeeman: I'd also add on DCAT that my priority is on a higher quality piece of work than rushing
09:15:31 [PhilA]
cygri: And we'd all rather produce a quality piece of work than something rushed out to a schedule
09:15:51 [PhilA]
HadleyBeeman: There are limits to that of course but in general, plus or minus a little then we're OK
09:16:14 [PhilA]
cygri: We got a number of comments that we need to go through for DCAT and the speed is an important factor
09:16:18 [bhyland]
Topic: Agenda bashing for today & tomorrow
09:16:40 [PhilA]
bhyland: Anything we need to change
09:17:09 [PhilA]
HadleyBeeman: I'm sure that a conversation on licensing etc. would be interesting but I'm not sure it's a priority for us
09:17:17 [bhyland]
http://www.w3.org/2011/gld/wiki/F2F3#Thursday.2C_2013-04-11
09:17:17 [PhilA]
bhyland: I took that out a while ago...
09:17:36 [PhilA]
HadleyBeeman: Presses F5
09:18:08 [PhilA]
bhyland: In theory we're going to do the BP doc in 10 mins time
09:18:24 [PhilA]
... we have an hour for Cube. Enough Richard?
09:18:50 [PhilA]
cygri: Yes, we only have one real issue to discuss
09:18:55 [PhilA]
DaveReynolds: Agree, an hour should be enough
09:19:31 [PhilA]
fadmaa: Yes, an hour or so is enough
09:19:53 [PhilA]
PhilA: Hides head in shame when suchkect of URI presistence comments somes up 'cos I keep promising and not delivering
09:20:08 [PhilA]
bhyland: May cut to half an hour as we need John E
09:20:29 [PhilA]
HadleyBeeman: Something I want to accomplish in the next 2 days is to re-do our timetable planning
09:20:44 [PhilA]
... a bash at the timetable page would be god before we finish
09:21:18 [PhilA]
bhyland: Editor should take the responsibility to update their timetables
09:21:34 [gatemezi]
s/god/good
09:21:36 [HadleyBeeman]
(Example for reminder: http://www.w3.org/2011/gld/wiki/DCAT_Timetable )
09:22:52 [PhilA]
rrsagent, draft minutes
09:22:52 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2013/04/11-gld-minutes.html PhilA
09:22:58 [PhilA]
Coffee break
09:29:25 [bhyland]
until 10.30 Dublin time
09:33:57 [HadleyBeeman]
"Caeser didn't have the option of following some British guys on Twitter, which would have changed the invasion completely."
09:34:14 [HadleyBeeman]
s/Caeser/Caesar
09:34:55 [PhilA]
scribe: fadmaa
09:35:15 [bhyland]
Topic: Best Practices
09:35:21 [bhyland]
ses http://www.w3.org/2011/gld/wiki/BP_Timetable
09:35:25 [bhyland]
s/ses/see
09:35:36 [bhyland]
https://dvcs.w3.org/hg/gld/raw-file/default/bp/index.html#source-data
09:36:41 [fadmaa]
bhyland: The BP document has a summary, list of checklists, diagrams. It then has a section on URI construction
09:37:11 [fadmaa]
... the fact that these recommendation can be done or not makes it different from other W3C recommendation
09:37:30 [fadmaa]
... I am suggesting removing the "checklist" section
09:37:46 [fadmaa]
... making the BP more normative
09:37:56 [fadmaa]
... and move the checklist to a separate note
09:39:05 [fadmaa]
bhyland: this also enhances our opportunity to have the BP done as a recommendation within the time frame
09:39:26 [fadmaa]
PhilA: this raises the question again of whether the BP should be a recommendation
09:39:47 [fadmaa]
... a recommendation also requires some implementation (independtly two implementations)
09:39:55 [fadmaa]
... which is hard
09:40:31 [fadmaa]
... checklist is really helpful and having them in a separate document make them hard to find
09:41:08 [martinA]
Checklist for WCAG is very useful and it's a Recommendation
09:42:07 [fadmaa]
... it has been done to have a community group note that feels exactly like a W3C recommendation if it is done well
09:43:37 [fadmaa]
HadleyBeeman: Are notes easier to be carried on by subsequent groups?
09:44:13 [PhilA]
Community group producing things that look like, but are not, standards http://www.w3.org/community/odrl/
09:44:32 [Zakim]
+Sandro
09:44:36 [fadmaa]
BartvanLeeuwen: best practice is hard to be put in a solid way as they need to be updated
09:45:00 [fadmaa]
cygri: agree. With note the process of updating it is more flexible
09:45:30 [fadmaa]
PhilA: it is better to try to finish the BP within the charter of this group
09:45:31 [DeirdreLee]
Google hangout available for visuals. If you want to join, post your email here
09:46:21 [fadmaa]
bhyland: taking URI process as an example, it is hard to point to implementations
09:46:45 [fadmaa]
HadleyBeeman: is Linked government data different than linked data in general?
09:46:59 [fadmaa]
... can't we consider an enterprise implementation
09:47:27 [fadmaa]
... as an existing implementation for the best practices for linked government data
09:47:52 [HadleyBeeman]
or possibly have the scope of Best Practices to cover all linked data?
09:48:01 [HadleyBeeman]
(tbd by the group)
09:48:14 [HadleyBeeman]
s/tbd/to be determined
09:49:07 [fadmaa]
??: would it be appropriate to refer to existing implementations from within a note?
09:49:20 [HadleyBeeman]
s/??/christophe
09:49:36 [fadmaa]
PhilA: I don't think this is good especially that implementations are not guaranteed to continue to exist
09:50:15 [fadmaa]
boris: it will be hard to point to implementations of BP
09:50:32 [fadmaa]
bhyland: if we take into account enterprise implementations that won't be hard
09:51:14 [fadmaa]
boris: it is hard to prove that the implementation was good and the practices were helpful
09:51:26 [fadmaa]
PhilA: if the customer(implementer) is happy, we can trust this
09:51:58 [fadmaa]
HadleyBeeman: looks like we have three options: one recommendation, a recommendation and a note or a note?
09:52:22 [fadmaa]
bhyland: one recommendation is not an option given the time frame
09:53:04 [fadmaa]
bhyland:this leaves two options: a recommendation and a checklist separate as a note
09:53:09 [fadmaa]
... or one note
09:53:46 [gatemezi]
http://www.w3.org/TR/mobile-bp/
09:53:47 [PhilA]
www.w3.org/TR/mobile-bp/
09:54:06 [fadmaa]
bhyland: an example of a good way to put best practices: http://www.w3.org/TR/mobile-bp/
09:55:27 [fadmaa]
BartvanLeeuwen: BP will not contain a MUST and SHOULD kind of recommendations
09:55:46 [fadmaa]
... but the like of "we think it is good to do this and this"
09:56:41 [fadmaa]
PhilA: in the mobile bp document referred to, we required feedback from two different implementers
09:59:02 [fadmaa]
PhilA: it might be good to suggest including a "persistent URI" section for the likely new W3C WG dealing with open data in general
09:59:31 [Screen]
Screen has joined #gld
09:59:31 [fadmaa]
... this means we can make the URI construction part of the BP as a note
09:59:36 [sandro]
Step 1 for talking the JSON folks: Don't use the terms "URI" or "IRI". Stick with "URL". :-)
09:59:50 [HadleyBeeman]
wise words, sandro
10:00:21 [fadmaa]
bhyland: URI policy and implementation is something that I think this WG can and should do
10:00:28 [DaveReynolds]
q+
10:00:43 [fadmaa]
... we have the required technical capabilities
10:00:44 [cygri]
q-
10:00:54 [PhilA]
ack DaveReynolds
10:01:34 [fadmaa]
DaveReynolds: I support the suggestion for going for a note containing the URI construction section
10:01:51 [fadmaa]
... I don't think having two separate docs is a good idea
10:02:18 [HadleyBeeman]
HTTP range 14 compliance can of worms
10:02:28 [fadmaa]
... and achieving consensus for a rec is risky, we might have the http range discussion opened again
10:02:54 [HadleyBeeman]
:)
10:03:00 [fadmaa]
bhyland: I don't mind putting the BP in a note
10:03:18 [fadmaa]
... but I don't like the idea of defering this for a next WG
10:03:51 [DaveReynolds]
Don't think that PhilA's suggestion was to defer, but to build on.
10:04:15 [DaveReynolds]
Agenda says this discussion has 26mins left
10:04:25 [fadmaa]
PROPOSAL: put a BP as a note
10:06:18 [fadmaa]
sandro: is the argument that because URI construction is controversial we shouldn't try to get consensus on it?
10:07:26 [PhilA]
PhilA has joined #gld
10:07:34 [fadmaa]
DaveReynolds: I didn't mean that having a document on URI construction is a bad idea
10:08:03 [fadmaa]
... but having this within the best practice as a rec is risky
10:08:07 [fadmaa]
bhyland: +1
10:08:44 [sandro]
DaveReynolds:We're spending months on a revision of the UK policy and we're not nearly done, so this WG isn't ready to produce a REC on URI Construction.
10:09:10 [fadmaa]
bhyland: I think it is better to have the BP as a comprehensive document and as a WG note
10:09:39 [fadmaa]
boris: giving the time restrictions, I also think that putting this as a note is a good idea
10:10:12 [DaveReynolds]
+1
10:10:15 [HadleyBeeman]
+1 to putting BP as a note
10:10:15 [cygri]
PROPOSAL: The WG aims to publish Best Practices as a W3C Note
10:10:32 [MakxDekkers]
+1
10:10:33 [BartvanLeeuwen]
+1
10:10:41 [DaveReynolds]
+1
10:10:42 [HadleyBeeman]
+1
10:10:42 [fadmaa]
+1
10:10:42 [gatemezi]
+1
10:10:45 [martinA]
+1
10:10:52 [cygri]
+1
10:11:08 [sandro]
+1 given that I'm hearing the editor says we can't possibly make it to CR by the end of May, or even the URI Construction part of it.
10:11:32 [DaveReynolds]
To be clear. Very happy to have URI construction and policy as part of BP note. Having a REC track document that just focusses on that issue will be a challenge in terms of community consensus and timescale. UK experience is that despite several years use of previous UK recommendations, they need substantial update and that achieving consensus on that update is time consuming.
10:11:46 [boris]
+1
10:11:49 [bhyland]
bhyland has joined #gld
10:11:53 [sandro]
DaveReynolds, my question is whether or not we should ATTEMPT to meet that challenge.
10:12:09 [sandro]
DaveReynolds, ... and I'm hearing "No."
10:12:34 [DaveReynolds]
sandro: no, I'm saying "yes" but not in the next 3 weeks just from GLD perspective
10:12:44 [sandro]
What if we had 6 months?
10:13:29 [HadleyBeeman]
Looking further at URI persistence in the context of open data (especially with regard to JSON and XML) would be useful. Perhaps subsequent working group? At that point, it's out of the realm of Linked Data and RDF… but still worth doing.
10:14:03 [fadmaa]
sandro: If we get a 6 month extension, should we try to work on the URI construction recommendations?
10:14:04 [cygri]
q+
10:15:22 [fadmaa]
bhyland: we have enough technical recommendations and guidance to put in a section on URI construction in a best practice note
10:15:35 [fadmaa]
... it can serve as input for further work
10:15:56 [sandro]
bhyland: It would be confusing to take URI Construction out of Best Practices, into another document.
10:16:00 [cgueret]
cgueret has joined #gld
10:16:22 [cgueret]
+1
10:16:57 [fadmaa]
... there are examples of notes which are widely used and even referred to as standards sometimes especially for people not aware of the W3C processes
10:17:16 [fadmaa]
sandro: if we have the URI construction doc separate, people will pay more attention
10:17:30 [fadmaa]
... and this will halep getting this thoroughly discussed
10:17:44 [gatemezi]
s/christophe/cgueret
10:17:48 [fadmaa]
s/halep/help/
10:17:50 [bhyland]
Sandro - We want BP well documented and this is important.
10:17:54 [DaveReynolds]
q+
10:18:32 [sandro]
sandro: This is a major decision for the WG, so it needs to be well-documented and well-justified.
10:18:43 [BartvanLeeuwen]
q+
10:18:45 [fadmaa]
sandro: we need to clearly record the reason for our decision re. working or not URI construction
10:19:22 [bhyland]
cygri: What we say on URI Policy for Persistence has wide reaching impact… for example LDP and RDF WGs
10:19:28 [sandro]
cygri: What we say on URI construction can have a pretty big impact and affect lots of other WGs. Making those recommendations might also be in-scope for other WGs, like LDP. The RDF WG has views and opinions on these issues.
10:19:30 [fadmaa]
cygri: this has broad implications. one might argue that this falls also in the scope of other WG e.g. the RDF WG, the LD platform
10:19:51 [sandro]
(It came about because of the UK guidance document.)
10:20:16 [fadmaa]
bhyland: the reason this was part of the GLD charter, is because its charter was written before the LDP one
10:20:28 [boris]
boris has joined #gld
10:20:30 [PhilA]
that's the one DaveReynolds tells us that months of work is going into updating. It's referred to by many people.
10:21:06 [fadmaa]
cgueret: it is important to clarify whether there is something specific with government URIs in particular
10:21:38 [fadmaa]
cygri: some topics in the charter are hard to be addressed exclusively in the government scope
10:21:58 [PhilA]
cygri: Makes the point that URI construction is not gov-specific (or any other domain). LDP is equally interested, for example
10:21:59 [BartvanLeeuwen]
q?
10:22:04 [fadmaa]
... many of the issues are general and the technologies can be applied outside government linked data
10:22:49 [fadmaa]
bhyland: it is fine to impact other people and WGs and we can get input from them
10:23:24 [fadmaa]
cygri: my concern is that we might not have the right composition in the WG to address some broad topics
10:24:09 [fadmaa]
... that might go beyond the scope.
10:24:33 [sandro]
q+ to say the Charter was about URI Construction *for governments* specifically.
10:25:01 [fadmaa]
cygri: there is a danger of not having all related people looking into our output and providing feedback
10:25:04 [sandro]
" The group will specify how to create good URIs for use in government linked data. "
10:25:31 [cygri]
ack me
10:26:42 [fadmaa]
sandro: the charter states that government linked data specifically
10:27:00 [fadmaa]
sandro: in the part referring to the URI construction
10:27:06 [bhyland]
To quote the charter: URI Construction. The group will specify how to create good URIs for use in government linked data.
10:27:41 [fadmaa]
cygri: if I look at our draft I don't see it specific to the government data
10:27:54 [fadmaa]
bhyland: yes it is general
10:28:56 [bhyland]
q?
10:29:12 [sandro]
bhyland, I think I halted the vote by asking this question -- about 6 months, etc.
10:29:15 [PhilA]
PhilA: There's a session on URIs at the London workshop btw http://www.w3.org/2013/04/odw/agenda#uris. Some gov, but not all
10:29:24 [PhilA]
q+
10:29:52 [HadleyBeeman]
It sounds to me like we can all agree that URI persistence section of our BP draft isn't finished. I suggest we have other conversations about the nuances of the content.
10:30:11 [sandro]
DaveReynolds: If URI Construction were split out, we'd have to be much more careful and clear about the scope. Meanwhile, the UK stuff is Best Practice suggestions, *not* formal conformance spec stuff.
10:30:15 [BartvanLeeuwen]
ack me
10:30:22 [PhilA]
q-
10:30:30 [sandro]
I'm comfortable deferring to DaveReynolds expertise on that.
10:30:43 [sandro]
q-
10:31:30 [bhyland]
@Dave - so what you just said further suggests the URI Policy guidance should be in a WG Note, not a Rec track doc because it is not "pass / fail"
10:31:44 [bhyland]
@Dave, do I understand you correctly?
10:32:00 [cygri]
cygri: Potentially, all LD is in scope for LDP
10:32:40 [cygri]
BartvanLeeuwen: Dutch government has a linked data working group
10:32:42 [sandro]
BartvanLeeuwen: It'd be helpful to the Dutch group on this to have URI construction be a separate WG Note
10:32:47 [fadmaa]
fadmaa has joined #gld
10:33:10 [cygri]
… having a separate document for URI construction would help highlighting it so that national groups don't reinvent thing
10:33:10 [sandro]
bhyland: I would not want to see URI Construction taken out of Best Practices.
10:33:14 [cygri]
s/thing/things/
10:33:15 [DaveReynolds]
bhyland: yes, if it gets into lower details as the UK stuff does then that should be framed as a range of possible approaches rather than a one true way
10:33:35 [sandro]
HadleyBeeman: I think URI Construction needs a lot more time and attention than we've got.
10:34:00 [DaveReynolds]
PhilA: Don't know, in principle maybe, would need to discuss with the sponsors (defra)
10:34:13 [cygri]
q?
10:34:17 [sandro]
HadleyBeeman: Part of what needs to happen going forward with URIs is to (1) make it more government specific and (2) get more reviews from the WGs that might care about this
10:34:27 [bhyland]
@Dave, then I agree with you & in discussion this AM discussion, believe even more so that it should be a WG Note.
10:34:28 [sandro]
bhyland: yes and yes
10:35:53 [bhyland]
Proposed: Publish Best Practices as as Working Group Note, inclusive of URI Construction guidance and URI Policy for Persistence, and various checklists for vocabs, etc.
10:37:17 [DaveReynolds]
+1
10:37:36 [sandro]
+1
10:37:44 [HadleyBeeman]
RESOLVED: The WG aims to publish Best Practices as a W3C Note.
10:37:52 [MakxDekkers]
+1
10:38:00 [cgueret]
+1
10:38:36 [sandro]
(We understand this is different from the Charter -- in that the charter says this will be a Recommendation.)
10:39:20 [HadleyBeeman]
Charter: 2.2 Best Practices for Publishing Linked Data www.w3.org/2011/gld/charter
10:39:42 [fadmaa]
bhyland: reviewing the BP document as stated in the charter:
10:39:58 [fadmaa]
... Procurement we decided before not to include it in the BP doc
10:40:01 [DaveReynolds]
Main my -1 on procurement checklist
10:40:07 [DaveReynolds]
s/Main/Maintain/
10:40:39 [fadmaa]
bhyland: procurement as a checklist
10:40:47 [DaveReynolds]
Well at least -0
10:41:19 [fadmaa]
cygri: it is hard to vote on whether it should be a checklist or no
10:41:42 [fadmaa]
... the group can vote based on teh content. I think there is no need for the WG to micro-manage this
10:42:38 [fadmaa]
HadleyBeeman: do we need formal process to drop parts of the charter?
10:42:55 [fadmaa]
sandro: we have discussions on emails but not a formal decision
10:42:58 [bhyland]
Discussed that the Best Practices WG Note contain checklist information for procurement, vocab selection, and thoroughly URI Construction and URI Policy for Persistence. This WG Note does not expect to cover in detail Versioning, Stability, Legacy Data. Finally, the LD Cookbook will live as a wiki.
10:43:16 [fadmaa]
... at some point we need some text explaining why we are not working on some parts of the charter
10:43:51 [HadleyBeeman]
The charter commits us to delivering BP recommendations that we have discussed not having.
10:44:35 [fadmaa]
PhilA: we need to record that the WG has decided not to include some parts of the charter
10:45:37 [HadleyBeeman]
We planned for sections on Procurement, Versioning, Stability and Legacy Data. WG members who were authorities on those topics have left, and we have further discussed that they are not relevant/feasible to produce to a high level.
10:46:25 [HadleyBeeman]
bhyland: they are relevant, but we are only going to produce high-level summaries of them.
10:46:39 [sandro]
PROPOSED: Best Practices will only very briefly discuss "4. Versioning", "5.Stability", and "6. Legacy Data. ". Also, "7. Cookbook" will be in a wiki. We don't have the time/expertise to do more.
10:46:45 [bhyland]
+1
10:46:50 [HadleyBeeman]
+1
10:47:06 [DaveReynolds]
0 (sounds like procurement checklist remains)
10:47:36 [sandro]
PROPOSED: Best Practices will only very briefly discuss "1. Procurement", "4. Versioning", "5.Stability", and "6. Legacy Data. ". Also, "7. Cookbook" will be in a wiki. We don't have the time/expertise to do more.
10:48:07 [gatemezi]
q?
10:48:30 [sandro]
PROPOSED: Best Practices will (at most) only very briefly discuss "1. Procurement", "4. Versioning", "5.Stability", and "6. Legacy Data. ". Also, "7. Cookbook" will be in a wiki. We don't have the time/expertise to do more.
10:48:46 [DaveReynolds]
+1
10:48:47 [sandro]
+1
10:49:08 [fadmaa]
+1
10:49:32 [sandro]
(for DaveReynolds, the addition of "at most" clarifies that we might drop the Procurement section entirely.)
10:49:38 [fadmaa]
bhyland: the current section on procurement is not specific to government
10:49:45 [cygri]
0 (I don't see the point of this vote.)
10:49:48 [gatemezi]
+1
10:49:51 [HadleyBeeman]
+1
10:49:53 [boris]
+1
10:49:54 [MakxDekkers]
+1
10:49:54 [BartvanLeeuwen]
+1
10:49:57 [cgueret]
+1
10:49:58 [fadmaa]
... if we can't make it better I'd suggest not having it
10:49:59 [fadmaa]
+1
10:50:18 [sandro]
RESOLVED: Best Practices will (at most) only very briefly discuss "1. Procurement", "4. Versioning", "5.Stability", and "6. Legacy Data. ". Also, "7. Cookbook" will be in a wiki. We don't have the time/expertise to do more.
10:50:41 [sandro]
We can change our mind in light of new information -- eg some Awesome new text.
10:50:43 [cgueret2]
cgueret2 has joined #gld
10:51:18 [sandro]
bhyland: This is largely guidance to the editors
10:51:38 [bhyland]
Thanks all, very helpful to editors.
10:51:57 [sandro]
HadleyBeeman: And this documents for the world that/why we're not doing these things in our charter.
10:52:46 [MakxDekkers]
please try to keep break times the same. I am planning around that
10:53:21 [HadleyBeeman]
noted, makxdekkers
10:54:22 [fadmaa]
TOPIC: Data Cube vocabulary LC feedback review
10:54:27 [DaveReynolds]
http://www.w3.org/2011/gld/wiki/Data_Cube_LC_comments
10:54:32 [cygri]
http://www.w3.org/2011/gld/wiki/Data_Cube_LC_comments
10:55:01 [fadmaa]
cygri: we have all the comments we received in teh Wiki page
10:55:10 [gatemezi]
Topic: Data Cube
10:55:38 [fadmaa]
... many of them were expressing their used of the vocabulary and their satisfaction
10:55:54 [fadmaa]
... there are some editorial issues that the editors can take care of
10:56:21 [fadmaa]
... one thing that needs some discussion, is the question re. the SDMX part relation to the Spec itself
10:56:42 [fadmaa]
... and whether it is part of the Rec
10:57:24 [fadmaa]
cygri: the main issue was regarding the heirarchical there was some push back
10:57:55 [fadmaa]
s/heirarchical/heirarchical code list/
10:58:57 [cygri]
ISSUE-59?
10:58:57 [trackbot]
ISSUE-59 -- Last Call comment. Frank Cotton on qb:HierarchicalCodeList -- raised
10:58:57 [trackbot]
http://www.w3.org/2011/gld/track/issues/59
11:00:18 [fadmaa]
cygri: the issue is mainly with hierarchical list which is common in statistical data e.g. geographic areas
11:00:43 [fadmaa]
... it is a frequent requirement to have this hierarchy represented in their data
11:01:07 [fadmaa]
... we use SKOS currently which can express hierarchy with broader/narrower
11:01:38 [fadmaa]
... the issue with this, is the existing domain specific hierarchies that are not represented using SKOS
11:02:00 [fadmaa]
... can we enable organisations to use the hierarchies they already have?
11:02:45 [fadmaa]
... one possible solution is to require these lists to be represented into SKOS
11:03:17 [fadmaa]
... but this will prohibit people from reusing their already defined data and URIs
11:03:59 [fadmaa]
... the hierarchicalcodelist property allows pointing to non-SKOS lists
11:05:28 [PhilA]
scribe: DeirdreLee
11:06:24 [DeirdreLee]
cgueret2: shouldn't force use of skos for hierarchies, because skos is not enough
11:06:39 [DeirdreLee]
PhilA: how common is the problem that skos is not enough
11:07:00 [DeirdreLee]
cygri: 2 issues, first is forcing people to use skos and the second that skos is not rich enough
11:07:48 [DeirdreLee]
... if skos is not rich enough for your need, you can just extend it
11:09:00 [DeirdreLee]
... datacube does not specify that skos has to be used for hierarchy, however is you use skos discovering the hierarchical information is clear
11:09:32 [DeirdreLee]
... so datacube only 'forces' you to use skos if you are looking for this predictability
11:09:50 [DeirdreLee]
... more difficult to discover properties if skos is not used
11:10:05 [DeirdreLee]
PhilA: do we need a WG to extend SKOS?
11:10:24 [DeirdreLee]
cygri: there is a group that is looking into this
11:11:23 [Zakim]
-MakxDekkers
11:11:44 [HadleyBeeman]
XKOS at the DDI: https://github.com/linked-statistics/xkos/blob/master/xkos.ttl
11:12:35 [Zakim]
+MakxDekkers
11:12:39 [DeirdreLee]
PhilA: What is the benefit of using Datacube if they don't use skos?
11:12:43 [bhyland]
zakim, who is on the call?
11:12:43 [Zakim]
On the phone I see martinA, GLDMeetingRoom, DaveReynolds, Sandro, MakxDekkers
11:12:45 [Zakim]
GLDMeetingRoom has Ghislain
11:12:57 [MakxDekkers]
zakim, mute me
11:12:57 [Zakim]
MakxDekkers should now be muted
11:13:11 [DeirdreLee]
cygri: yes
11:13:56 [PhilA]
zakim, GLDMeetingRoom has Ghislain, DeirdreLee, bhyland, cgueret2, BartvanLeeuwen, boris, fadmaa, gatemezi, cygri, HadleyBeeman, PhilA
11:13:56 [Zakim]
Ghislain was already listed in GLDMeetingRoom, PhilA
11:13:57 [HadleyBeeman]
zakim, GLDMeetingRoom has bhyland, gatemezi, phila, cygri, hadleybeeman, fadmaa, boris, bartvanleeuwen, cgueret2, deirdrelee
11:13:58 [Zakim]
+DeirdreLee, bhyland, cgueret2, BartvanLeeuwen, boris, fadmaa, gatemezi, cygri, HadleyBeeman, PhilA; got it
11:13:58 [Zakim]
bhyland was already listed in GLDMeetingRoom, HadleyBeeman
11:13:58 [Zakim]
gatemezi was already listed in GLDMeetingRoom, HadleyBeeman
11:13:58 [Zakim]
PhilA was already listed in GLDMeetingRoom, HadleyBeeman
11:13:58 [Zakim]
cygri was already listed in GLDMeetingRoom, HadleyBeeman
11:13:58 [Zakim]
HadleyBeeman was already listed in GLDMeetingRoom, HadleyBeeman
11:14:00 [Zakim]
fadmaa was already listed in GLDMeetingRoom, HadleyBeeman
11:14:00 [Zakim]
boris was already listed in GLDMeetingRoom, HadleyBeeman
11:14:00 [Zakim]
BartvanLeeuwen was already listed in GLDMeetingRoom, HadleyBeeman
11:14:00 [Zakim]
cgueret2 was already listed in GLDMeetingRoom, HadleyBeeman
11:14:00 [Zakim]
DeirdreLee was already listed in GLDMeetingRoom, HadleyBeeman
11:15:12 [DeirdreLee]
... different kinds of hierachies should be represented using different model so that the hieranchical subtleties can be captured
11:16:00 [PhilA]
PhilA: I am convinced by cygri. Thank you
11:16:48 [DeirdreLee]
cygri: proposed response to Frank 'we understand the concern, but we would like to provide a more flexible approach'
11:17:53 [cygri]
1. we would like to provide a simple way of using qb, although we understand that this simplification is not always appropriate
11:18:24 [cygri]
2. it's important to allow re-use of existing identifiers that orgs already have; forcing creation of parallel skos hierarchies not good.
11:18:55 [DaveReynolds]
http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-gld-wg/2013Apr/0017.html
11:19:12 [DeirdreLee]
DaveReynolds: agrees with cygri
11:19:32 [bhyland]
+1 to cygri's summary, always provide a simple way to use QB
11:20:02 [Zakim]
-MakxDekkers
11:20:16 [DeirdreLee]
... cygri's point misses that there is information that skos cannot capture
11:20:33 [cygri]
3. even in SKOS there can be multiple hierarchies (e.g. containment and admin reporting)
11:21:49 [DeirdreLee]
DaveReynolds: there are genuine reasons for hierarchical representations other than skos
11:21:52 [cygri]
rephrasing… 3. there are genuine reasons for using other relationships than SKOS broader/narrower, for example when there are multiple hierarchies
11:22:44 [DeirdreLee]
cygri: hierarchical codelist feature allows us to address this
11:23:35 [DeirdreLee]
DaveReynolds: Frank is right that it opens the door to confused representations, but it also opens the door to good representations
11:23:50 [DaveReynolds]
s/Frank/Franck/
11:24:34 [DeirdreLee]
PROPOSAL: We keep the qb:HierarchicalCodeList and DaveReynolds explaining the reasoning for this
11:24:41 [cygri]
+1
11:24:53 [fadmaa]
+1
11:24:56 [gatemezi]
+1
11:24:59 [BartvanLeeuwen]
+1
11:25:03 [DaveReynolds]
+1 (I will improve email based on this discussion)
11:25:05 [boris]
+1
11:25:16 [cgueret2]
+1
11:25:19 [martinA]
+1
11:25:24 [MakxDekkers]
got disconnected, now passcode 4531# is invalid
11:25:33 [cygri]
zakim, code?
11:25:33 [Zakim]
the conference code is 4531 (tel:+1.617.761.6200 sip:zakim@voip.w3.org), cygri
11:25:47 [PhilA]
zakim, code?
11:25:47 [Zakim]
the conference code is 4531 (tel:+1.617.761.6200 sip:zakim@voip.w3.org), PhilA
11:25:57 [PhilA]
hmm...
11:25:57 [bhyland]
Sorry Makx!
11:26:01 [Zakim]
+MakxDekkers
11:26:10 [MakxDekkers]
OK back in
11:26:49 [MakxDekkers]
zakim, mute me
11:26:49 [Zakim]
MakxDekkers should now be muted
11:26:54 [cygri]
q?
11:27:00 [MakxDekkers]
yes
11:27:24 [HadleyBeeman]
Cygri, is this still up to date then? http://www.w3.org/2011/gld/wiki/Data_Cube_Timetable
11:27:31 [MakxDekkers]
yes fine now
11:28:40 [DeirdreLee]
PhilA: in the table of LC comments, there is evidence of use. How extensive is this evidence? Is it enough to get out of CR?
11:29:21 [DeirdreLee]
cygri: there are 2 kinds of implenations we want to consider, one is datasets, the second is consuming applications
11:30:21 [HadleyBeeman]
RESOLVED: We keep the qb:HierarchicalCodeList and DaveReynolds explaining the reasoning for this
11:30:22 [DeirdreLee]
... there are plenty of datasets that use qb, whose well-formedness can easily be tested based on spec
11:32:20 [DeirdreLee]
PhilA: it's not up to datacube to prove that it can be consumed
11:33:08 [DeirdreLee]
cygri: agree, but, for integration purposes, it is useful to show that there are consuming applications
11:33:30 [DeirdreLee]
PhilA: how long would it take to create a document reporting this?
11:33:45 [sandro]
q?
11:34:16 [DeirdreLee]
DaveReynolds: What is missing is exactly what terms have been used
11:34:54 [DeirdreLee]
... but this is based on the CR criteria of all the vocabularies
11:34:56 [sandro]
+1 we need a broader discussion of CR criteria. (I'm not very comfortable with ignoring consumers.)
11:35:15 [DeirdreLee]
PhilA: answer from cygri on if we can skip CR is 'no'
11:36:03 [sandro]
(CR is both a validation of the market and of the technology)
11:36:15 [DeirdreLee]
cygri: if we wanted to, we could create a small implementation report, reaching out to community using qb
11:36:29 [DeirdreLee]
... but this engagement would take more than 2 or 3 weeks
11:37:11 [DeirdreLee]
bhyland: we will add an item to the agenda 'CR exit criteria'
11:38:25 [MakxDekkers]
have to leave -- lunch is being served. back at 13:30 your time
11:38:33 [Zakim]
-MakxDekkers
11:38:33 [HadleyBeeman]
cheers, makxdekkers
11:38:58 [DeirdreLee]
cgueret:: is there plans in qb to include openannotation for tagging?
11:39:48 [DeirdreLee]
cygri: this issue comes up often with lots of different vocabularies, for example prov, how to we treat their relations with other vocabularies
11:40:08 [DeirdreLee]
... better to address this issue generally for a link to any other vocabulary
11:40:31 [DeirdreLee]
s/to/do
11:41:13 [DaveReynolds]
q+
11:41:24 [DeirdreLee]
... these are orthogonal issues, so should not be closely tied within the vocab spec
11:42:03 [PhilA]
ack DaveReynolds
11:42:21 [DeirdreLee]
DaveReynolds: might it be worthwhile to document this in the bp guide?
11:43:06 [cygri]
DaveReynolds++ great phrasing
11:43:12 [DeirdreLee]
... interlinking vocabularies should be loosely coupled so they may be mix and matched
11:43:19 [DeirdreLee]
bhyland: like lego :)
11:44:20 [DeirdreLee]
cygri: discussion on datacube done
11:44:49 [HadleyBeeman]
And to lunch. We're back here for 13:45 (1 hour from now)
11:44:54 [cygri]
DaveReynolds: vocabularies as modular building blocks… don't artificially tightly couple them
11:45:00 [DeirdreLee]
HadleyBeeman: will reconvene at 13:45 Irish time
11:45:03 [martinA]
ok, bye
11:45:12 [Zakim]
-martinA
11:45:13 [Zakim]
-Sandro
11:45:22 [Zakim]
-DaveReynolds
12:08:58 [Zakim]
+Mike_Pendleton
12:11:09 [Mike_Pendleton]
Mike_Pendleton has joined #GLD
12:12:04 [Zakim]
-Mike_Pendleton
12:12:39 [Zakim]
+Mike_Pendleton
12:13:16 [Zakim]
-Mike_Pendleton
12:21:13 [sandro]
Hey Mike. They're at lunch until :45
12:33:55 [Mike_Pendleton]
Thanks Sandro
12:45:26 [martinA]
martinA has joined #gld
12:45:54 [Zakim]
+Sandro
12:46:43 [BartvanLeeuwen]
BartvanLeeuwen has joined #gld
12:46:48 [Zakim]
+Mike_Pendleton
12:47:49 [MakxDekkers]
let us know when you resume
12:48:07 [Screen]
Screen has joined #gld
12:48:41 [Zakim]
+[IPcaller]
12:49:08 [Zakim]
+??P32
12:49:26 [martinA]
zakim, ??P32 is me
12:49:26 [Zakim]
+martinA; got it
12:51:16 [HadleyBeeman]
HadleyBeeman has joined #gld
12:52:50 [Zakim]
+MakxDekkers
12:52:59 [PhilA]
PhilA has joined #gld
12:53:26 [MakxDekkers]
can we get hangout visual back?
12:54:31 [MakxDekkers]
thanks, hangout is back
12:54:32 [PhilA]
Derirde will sort the Google Hangout thing shortly MakxDekkers
12:54:41 [MakxDekkers]
I can see you
12:58:04 [bhyland]
bhyland has joined #gld
12:58:21 [TallTed]
TallTed has joined #gld
12:59:08 [MakxDekkers]
zkaim, mute me
12:59:13 [MakxDekkers]
zakim, mute me
12:59:13 [Zakim]
MakxDekkers should now be muted
12:59:32 [bhyland]
zakim, who is on the call?
12:59:32 [Zakim]
On the phone I see GLDMeetingRoom, Sandro, Mike_Pendleton, DaveReynolds, martinA, MakxDekkers (muted)
12:59:34 [Zakim]
GLDMeetingRoom has DeirdreLee, bhyland, cgueret2, BartvanLeeuwen, boris, fadmaa, gatemezi, cygri, HadleyBeeman, PhilA
12:59:38 [DeirdreLee]
DeirdreLee has joined #gld
12:59:40 [MakxDekkers]
hearing lots of noise
12:59:43 [HadleyBeeman]
Welcome back from lunch
12:59:46 [Zakim]
-Mike_Pendleton
12:59:54 [MakxDekkers]
feedback ;)
12:59:54 [fadmaa]
fadmaa has joined #gld
13:00:04 [DeirdreLee]
hey, if you want to join visually via google hangout, post email address
13:00:08 [bhyland]
Agenda: http://www.w3.org/2011/gld/wiki/F2F3#DRAFT_Agenda
13:00:14 [Zakim]
+Mike_Pendleton
13:00:36 [martinA]
Please, DeirdreLee martin.alvarez@fundacionctic.org
13:01:06 [MakxDekkers]
OK now
13:01:50 [fadmaa]
presentation for DCAT LC comments:
13:01:51 [fadmaa]
http://www.w3.org/2011/gld/wiki/images/7/7b/Dcat-lc-comments.pptx
13:04:53 [screen1]
screen1 has joined #gld
13:05:45 [HadleyBeeman]
http://www.w3.org/2011/gld/wiki/images/7/7b/Dcat-lc-comments.pptx
13:06:58 [bhyland]
zakim, who is on the call?
13:06:58 [Zakim]
On the phone I see GLDMeetingRoom, Sandro, DaveReynolds, martinA, MakxDekkers (muted), Mike_Pendleton
13:07:00 [Zakim]
GLDMeetingRoom has DeirdreLee, bhyland, cgueret2, BartvanLeeuwen, boris, fadmaa, gatemezi, cygri, HadleyBeeman, PhilA
13:07:17 [MakxDekkers]
Not very well
13:07:27 [bhyland]
We just moved the mic next to Fadi
13:07:27 [martinA]
Better
13:07:31 [MakxDekkers]
better
13:07:31 [martinA]
good, thanks
13:07:38 [cgueret]
cgueret has joined #gld
13:08:36 [bhyland]
Topic: DCAT Last Call Comments
13:08:52 [bhyland]
Facilitator: Fadi
13:08:55 [bhyland]
Scribe: Bernadette
13:09:13 [MakxDekkers]
can faadi speak a little slower please
13:09:15 [bhyland]
Slides for Fadi's pres: http://www.w3.org/2011/gld/wiki/images/7/7b/Dcat-lc-comments.pptx
13:10:13 [bhyland]
Fadi plans to highlight the issues raised followed by more detailed discussion.
13:10:16 [TallTed]
TallTed has joined #gld
13:10:18 [MakxDekkers]
please refer to slide number
13:10:31 [cygri]
slide "Changes to existing terms"
13:11:00 [bhyland]
Slide: 9
13:11:05 [gatemezi]
slide 9: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-gld-comments/2013Apr/0009.html
13:11:15 [MakxDekkers]
what about slide 8?
13:11:35 [DaveReynolds]
Very hard to follow. Was anything decided on sdates
13:11:43 [DaveReynolds]
s/sdates/dates?/
13:11:46 [PhilA]
no, not that I know of DaveReynolds
13:12:14 [bhyland]
Slides 2-7 were all editorial mods that Fadi will handle.
13:12:57 [MakxDekkers]
I strongly agree with Phil that using "01" is a bad idea
13:13:06 [bhyland]
Slide 8: Noted but need to discuss.
13:14:52 [bhyland]
Richard: As a procedural note, editors must be clear on action plan for 1) editorial changes (ed's just do it); 2) requires WG input - will be tough to do in R/T in F2F, suggest raising formal issues in Tracker
13:16:17 [bhyland]
… Note: Substantial vs. non-substantial changes must be noted. In the case of *substantial* comments it implies we'll go to another LC so everyone has a chance of looking at the entire thing. No one should be surprised when it comes out as a Rec track deliverable.
13:16:53 [bhyland]
… Modifications that cause changes to conformance are considered substantial.
13:17:38 [bhyland]
… editorial changes are fixing: typos, improving clarification, and similar level changes — that is all non-substantive
13:18:04 [bhyland]
Slide 9: Changes to existing terms, needs more discussion.
13:18:30 [bhyland]
Slide 10: Also change to existing terms, submitted by Makx
13:19:24 [bhyland]
Agreed, not substantive.
13:19:50 [bhyland]
Slide: 11: Change to existing terms from Bill Roberts
13:19:57 [MakxDekkers]
There is a proposed vocabulary but it was never finalised
13:20:35 [bhyland]
Slide 12: Changes to existing terms from JeniT
13:20:51 [bhyland]
Needs further discussion
13:21:03 [MakxDekkers]
http://www.ukoln.ac.uk/metadata/dcmi/collection-DCCDAccrualPeriodicity/
13:21:04 [bhyland]
Slide 13: Changes to existing terms
13:21:14 [MakxDekkers]
going too fast for me
13:21:35 [cygri]
http://www.w3.org/2011/gld/wiki/DCAT_LC_comments
13:22:14 [MakxDekkers]
what was the conclusion on slide 13?
13:22:43 [bhyland]
Needs further discussion (just arrived this AM)
13:22:48 [MakxDekkers]
OK
13:22:56 [bhyland]
Slide 14: Adding new terms from JeniT
13:23:08 [bhyland]
Needs further discussion
13:23:31 [MakxDekkers]
DCAT call would be good idea
13:23:47 [bhyland]
Action: Fadi to organize a call with people who are able to help resolve open DCAT issues.
13:23:47 [trackbot]
Created ACTION-112 - Organize a call with people who are able to help resolve open DCAT issues. [on Fadi Maali - due 2013-04-18].
13:23:58 [bhyland]
Slide 15: Adding new terms
13:24:34 [bhyland]
Possible plan to follow what ADMS does but requires further discussion.
13:24:48 [bhyland]
Slide 16: Adding new terms from ChristopherG
13:25:31 [bhyland]
Possible plan to follow what ADMS or OpenOrg does but requires further discussion.
13:25:34 [MakxDekkers]
Correct
13:26:30 [bhyland]
Slide 17: Adding new terms from Bill R
13:27:03 [bhyland]
There doesn't seem to be a vocab to describe granularity, so if DCAT offers it, we may have to come up with a new term.
13:27:22 [MakxDekkers]
Not sure what "channelling someone" means?
13:27:57 [MakxDekkers]
OK!
13:28:33 [bhyland]
Slide 18: Adding new terms from Ed S.
13:29:09 [MakxDekkers]
why not add a relationship to DCAT proper?
13:29:44 [MakxDekkers]
lot of people seem to be asking for it
13:30:47 [bhyland]
Fadi: Due to concerns of conformance, Fadi is concerned about adding "related" to dct because if will break things.
13:31:03 [MakxDekkers]
can we further discuss this?
13:31:08 [bhyland]
Yes!
13:31:21 [MakxDekkers]
OK
13:31:26 [bhyland]
Slide: 19
13:31:35 [bhyland]
Scope of DCAT from Stuart H
13:31:46 [bhyland]
Wants to broaden scope ...
13:32:45 [bhyland]
Fadi: While many people ask for this, he is concerned about complexity as well as, others specs address this albeit not in RDF.
13:32:56 [bhyland]
Requires further discussion
13:33:55 [bhyland]
Slide 20: Scope of DCAT from AndreaP
13:34:53 [bhyland]
From INSPIRE Directive team (see http://inspire.jrc.ec.europa.eu/)
13:35:06 [MakxDekkers]
One issue is that peopel think that dataset = http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Data_set, so basically tabular data
13:37:14 [MakxDekkers]
not defining is not always good
13:37:24 [bhyland]
Fadi: Mailing list comments have included wider and broader definitions of dataset.
13:37:55 [bhyland]
s/included/inferred
13:38:27 [MakxDekkers]
waht about a dataset on paper?
13:38:47 [bhyland]
Action: bhyland to add a dataset definition to the glossary (and cygri to help define it!!)
13:38:47 [trackbot]
Created ACTION-113 - Add a dataset definition to the glossary (and cygri to help define it!!) [on Bernadette Hyland - due 2013-04-18].
13:39:28 [bhyland]
Discussion ensued about what the definition of a "dataset" is.
13:40:09 [MakxDekkers]
isn't an API an access point to a dataset?
13:40:25 [PhilA]
A favourite resolution of Dom in such situations is to 'remain silent'
13:40:47 [MakxDekkers]
not defining creates confusion
13:41:00 [bhyland]
Cygri: Believes we should avoid defining a "dataset", avoiding controversial edge cases about what a dataset is.
13:41:24 [bhyland]
… the scope of DCAT is datasets (but we leave the definition of *what* a dataset is to the reader).
13:41:51 [gatemezi]
@bhyland: And what will be that *definition* of dataset in a Glossary?
13:42:06 [MakxDekkers]
if a dataset can be anything, just say that
13:42:47 [bhyland]
cgueret: People can use it how they wish ...
13:43:23 [MakxDekkers]
if a dataset can be anything, an API is a dataset
13:44:01 [MakxDekkers]
never use circular definitions!
13:45:00 [DaveReynolds]
Seems to me essence of DCAT is data resources that can be transmitted over a comms network. So code list, model etc is a dataset in that sense a person is not. Means that dcat:Dataset = information resource
13:45:17 [MakxDekkers]
correction: an API is a distribution (access point) of a dataset
13:45:27 [DaveReynolds]
So a dcat Dataset is anything for which http-range-14 doesn't bite :)
13:46:57 [cygri]
Makx++
13:47:00 [bhyland]
Fadi proposes dataset = "A collection of data, published or curated by a single source, and available for access or download in one or more formats."
13:47:13 [MakxDekkers]
isn't an API not just an accessURL?
13:47:58 [bhyland]
See above ;-)
13:48:15 [MakxDekkers]
or API-URL as subproperty of accessURL
13:48:39 [sandro]
"source" or "organization" ?
13:48:52 [sandro]
"foaf:Agent" ?
13:49:27 [bhyland]
Revision v1.0 - dataset = "A collection of data, published or curated by a single agent, and available for access or download in one or more formats."
13:49:38 [MakxDekkers]
sandro, I made that comment
13:49:56 [MakxDekkers]
agree with foaf:Agent
13:50:50 [bhyland]
PhilA: Key stakeholders in greater Open Data on the Web world care about APIs and Access points … there are many ways to access data and we mustn't limit its use.
13:51:27 [gatemezi]
according to the spec; dcat:Dataset dct:publisher foaf:Agent
13:53:27 [bhyland]
cygri: Again, very concerned about having a precise definition because he doesn't want to exclude constituents who might otherwise use DCAT ...
13:53:32 [MakxDekkers]
cygri makes things worse
13:53:47 [MakxDekkers]
just say "a dataset can be anything"!
13:54:33 [bhyland]
cygri - preferes to talk more about the purpose of DCAT rather than what a "dataset" is.
13:55:24 [bhyland]
q?
13:56:59 [bhyland]
Fadi: Further clarification about properties for a distribution are necessary and will help reduce questions / confusion.
13:57:35 [bhyland]
PhilA: Most people (at least PhilA) look at the diagram to reflect the spec.
13:57:46 [DaveReynolds]
Discussion seems to be about APIs but  Andrea Perego comment is not (just) about APIs, it's about whether dct Dataset includes code lists, video, software etc
13:57:50 [gatemezi]
In the library word: a dataset is "collection of structured metadata — descriptions of things, such as books in a library. The equivalent of a dataset in the library world is a collection of library records." ..see http://www.w3.org/2005/Incubator/lld/XGR-lld-vocabdataset-20111025/
13:58:04 [gatemezi]
s/word/world
13:58:06 [DaveReynolds]
Answer to that is "yes", isn't it?
13:58:30 [HadleyBeeman]
To which, DaveReynolds?
13:58:38 [DaveReynolds]
My comment
13:58:49 [DaveReynolds]
Discussion seems to be about APIs but  Andrea Perego comment is not (just) about APIs, it's about whether dct Dataset includes code lists, video, software etc
13:59:00 [DaveReynolds]
s/My/Andrea/
13:59:16 [MakxDekkers]
what about the text of a law? is that a dataset?
13:59:23 [bhyland]
cygri: I have yet to see a proposed use for DCAT that won't work. Meaning, yes, you can use it for what you're planning but we hadn't previously anticipated your use case, but it would work.
13:59:31 [HadleyBeeman]
makxdekkers I think it is on legislation.gov.uk
14:00:01 [MakxDekkers]
OK fine, that's what I am going to need
14:00:39 [Zakim]
-MakxDekkers
14:00:54 [bhyland]
cygri: DCAT can be used for a broad range of assets and DCAT is about creating a catalog of them.
14:00:56 [DaveReynolds]
Andrea essentially asks if DCAT applies to "catalogues of any type of information resources". Jokes on http-range-14 aside, that seems right to me.
14:01:08 [Zakim]
+MakxDekkers
14:01:51 [MakxDekkers]
Agree with Phil, of course!
14:02:14 [bhyland]
PhilA: DCAT uses AccessURL to point to an API.
14:02:38 [MakxDekkers]
Or define API-URL as a subproperty of accessURL
14:03:46 [cygri]
"…by a single person, organisation or other kind of agent…"
14:04:06 [MakxDekkers]
Thinking back to the discussion that led to downloadURL
14:04:17 [cgueret]
Or define an API datatype
14:05:44 [HadleyBeeman]
MaksDekkers: I asked JeniT (wrt her legislation.gov.uk work) re text of law as a dataset. Her response: "I'd more usually think of *all* the legislation making up the dataset, but for sure you could have subsets which could be as small as a single version of a single item of legislation"
14:05:52 [HadleyBeeman]
Does that help?
14:06:50 [Zakim]
-GLDMeetingRoom
14:06:58 [gatemezi]
s/MaksDekkers/MakxDekkers
14:07:00 [bhyland]
PhilA: If there someday is a Open Data on the Web WG, would having WSDL for the open data community.
14:07:09 [PhilA]
zakim, call GLDMeetingRoom
14:07:09 [Zakim]
ok, PhilA; the call is being made
14:07:11 [Zakim]
+GLDMeetingRoom
14:07:11 [MakxDekkers]
Hadley, The initial answer was clearer: the text of a low is a dataset
14:07:14 [bhyland]
sorry remote callers, Zakim rudely excused himself ...
14:07:19 [bhyland]
we're dialing back in now
14:07:31 [PhilA]
zakim, who is here?
14:07:31 [Zakim]
On the phone I see GLDMeetingRoom, Sandro, DaveReynolds, martinA, Mike_Pendleton, MakxDekkers
14:07:32 [MakxDekkers]
s/low/law/
14:07:34 [Zakim]
GLDMeetingRoom has DeirdreLee, bhyland, cgueret2, BartvanLeeuwen, boris, fadmaa, gatemezi, cygri, HadleyBeeman, PhilA
14:07:34 [Zakim]
On IRC I see TallTed, cgueret, screen1, DeirdreLee, bhyland, PhilA, HadleyBeeman, Screen, BartvanLeeuwen, martinA, Mike_Pendleton, gatemezi, cygri, RRSAgent, Zakim, MakxDekkers,
14:07:36 [bhyland]
zakim, who is on the call?
14:07:37 [Zakim]
... DaveReynolds, sandro, trackbot
14:07:37 [Zakim]
On the phone I see GLDMeetingRoom, Sandro, DaveReynolds, martinA, Mike_Pendleton, MakxDekkers
14:07:37 [Zakim]
GLDMeetingRoom has DeirdreLee, bhyland, cgueret2, BartvanLeeuwen, boris, fadmaa, gatemezi, cygri, HadleyBeeman, PhilA
14:07:41 [sandro]
we're here, yes
14:07:44 [HadleyBeeman]
MakxDekkers: It was my definition, as opposed to representing theirs. (Which, it turns out, is a bit more nuanced)
14:07:49 [MakxDekkers]
i'm still here
14:08:32 [bhyland]
s/WSDL for the open data community./WSDL for the open data community be helpful?
14:09:06 [PhilA]
zakim, who's making noise?
14:09:16 [MakxDekkers]
zakim, mute me
14:09:16 [Zakim]
MakxDekkers should now be muted
14:09:17 [Zakim]
PhilA, listening for 10 seconds I heard sound from the following: MakxDekkers (70%), GLDMeetingRoom (74%)
14:11:48 [PhilA]
PROPOSAL - That the text be clarified to say that dcat:Distribution is very general. We provide properties defined to describe a particular Distribution type, downloads, and that it is hoped that future work will define extensions for other types of Distribution
14:11:54 [bhyland]
cygri: Would like to see further editorial content to explain downloadable files in particular.
14:12:19 [bhyland]
Fadi: Concerned that this change will break implementations.
14:15:06 [bhyland]
Slide 21 & 22: Summary of Open Issues
14:15:14 [james]
james has joined #gld
14:15:39 [cygri]
http://www.w3.org/2011/gld/wiki/DCAT_LC_comments
14:17:35 [bhyland]
Summary: There are 23 issues on the wiki page and cygri proposes we get guidance from WG on what editors can safely edit vs. are possible substantive ...
14:17:46 [bhyland]
s/possible/possibly
14:18:12 [Zakim]
-Mike_Pendleton
14:18:47 [DaveReynolds]
Didn't we cover that while going through the slides?
14:18:56 [DaveReynolds]
Most went down as "needs discussion".
14:19:12 [DaveReynolds]
Probably those probably need to be opened as issues for tracking.
14:19:45 [Zakim]
+Mike_Pendleton
14:19:46 [PhilA]
zakim, time speakers at 30 seconds
14:19:46 [Zakim]
60 seconds is the minimum, PhilA
14:19:56 [PhilA]
zakim, time speakers at 60 seconds
14:19:57 [Zakim]
ok, PhilA
14:19:59 [PhilA]
ack cygri
14:20:35 [PhilA]
fadi: First point needs no discussion
14:20:42 [PhilA]
.. next 3 do
14:20:48 [PhilA]
zakim, stop timing speakers
14:20:48 [Zakim]
ok, PhilA
14:22:14 [PhilA]
List of issues is being updated live. Basic resolutions being recorded as to which ones need further discussion and which are editorial http://www.w3.org/2011/gld/wiki/DCAT_LC_comments
14:22:36 [MakxDekkers]
agree with cygri, keep it as it is
14:25:13 [MakxDekkers]
can't follwo
14:25:21 [cygri]
http://www.w3.org/2011/gld/wiki/DCAT_LC_comments
14:25:27 [MakxDekkers]
zakim, unmute me
14:25:27 [Zakim]
MakxDekkers should no longer be muted
14:25:27 [cygri]
comment #17
14:25:57 [MakxDekkers]
#17 OK
14:26:20 [MakxDekkers]
#18 OK
14:26:24 [PhilA]
for HadleyBeeman - you need http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-gld-wg/2013Apr/0009.html as evidence that 18 is resolved
14:26:31 [PhilA]
s/18/17/
14:26:39 [MakxDekkers]
#19 OK
14:27:26 [MakxDekkers]
#20 OK
14:27:37 [MakxDekkers]
#21 OK
14:27:45 [MakxDekkers]
#22 OK
14:29:27 [PhilA]
rrsagent, draft minutes
14:29:27 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2013/04/11-gld-minutes.html PhilA
14:29:27 [martinA]
I'm sorry, I have to leave.
14:29:36 [MakxDekkers]
zakim, mute me
14:29:36 [Zakim]
MakxDekkers should now be muted
14:29:46 [HadleyBeeman]
10 minutes break
14:29:57 [Zakim]
-martinA
14:29:59 [Zakim]
-MakxDekkers
14:30:05 [MakxDekkers]
be back in 10 mins
14:30:08 [martinA]
See you tomorrow. Enjoy tonight's dinner
14:32:23 [fadmaa]
fadmaa has joined #gld
14:39:52 [bhyland]
Agenda+ BP Timetable recap
14:41:56 [MakxDekkers]
passcode 4531# again invalid
14:42:09 [HadleyBeeman]
Sorry, makxdekkers
14:42:26 [PhilA]
zakim, code?
14:42:26 [Zakim]
the conference code is 4531 (tel:+1.617.761.6200 sip:zakim@voip.w3.org), PhilA
14:42:59 [Zakim]
+Sandro.a
14:43:03 [Zakim]
-Sandro.a
14:43:12 [HadleyBeeman]
makxdekkers, we're trying to find a way to get you in :)
14:43:29 [sandro]
MakxDekkers, I bet it's just slightly-distorted DTMF. Try longer tones, or trying repeatedly.
14:45:09 [bhyland]
http://www.w3.org/2011/gld/wiki/BP_Timetable#Detailed_timetable_and_checklist
14:45:49 [Zakim]
+MakxDekkers
14:46:03 [PhilA]
Topic: Community Directory
14:46:08 [PhilA]
scribe: PhilA
14:46:51 [PhilA]
bhyland: Discussed timeline
14:47:09 [PhilA]
HadleyBeeman: Updating the timeline itself
14:48:05 [PhilA]
bhyland: It should be in good shape by the end of this meeting
14:48:23 [MakxDekkers]
zakim, mute me
14:48:23 [Zakim]
MakxDekkers should now be muted
14:48:35 [PhilA]
HadleyBeeman: Suggest we stick to 29th as date of WG approval
14:49:31 [PhilA]
sandro: We'll publish a FPWD earliest we can after 29 April and get comments
14:49:55 [PhilA]
... then update the doc and publish that revised version as a Note
14:50:25 [Zakim]
+ +91.80.67.84.aabb
14:50:35 [PhilA]
bhyland: Target date would be for 3 weeks for comments -> publication of Note on 21 May
14:50:41 [Biplav]
Biplav has joined #gld
14:50:55 [PhilA]
zakim, aabb is Biplav
14:50:55 [Zakim]
+Biplav; got it
14:51:09 [sandro]
1. FPWG 2. WGNOTE
14:51:11 [bhyland]
See http://www.w3.org/2011/gld/wiki/BP_Timetable#Overview
14:51:29 [PhilA]
s/FPWG/FPWD/
14:52:19 [PhilA]
sandro: The date to record really is the one for the meeting when the WG will make the resolution
14:52:56 [sandro]
Hi PhilA
14:53:18 [Biplav]
q+
14:53:57 [HadleyBeeman]
scribe: hadleybeeman
14:54:26 [HadleyBeeman]
Topic: Community Directory
14:54:30 [james]
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14:55:18 [DeirdreLee_]
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14:55:34 [PhilA2]
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14:55:40 [HadleyBeeman]
bhyland: Previous version of the Community Directory had a login; UX, admin and user headaches resulted. Over time 75 orgs registered. Beyond having a triple store and storing the data in RDF, it wasn't a linked data application. So we took on board the feedback and spent time re-doing it.
14:55:53 [HadleyBeeman]
… Now it's what we have on dir.w3.org
14:56:03 [PhilA2]
scribe: PhilA2
14:56:04 [gatemezi]
ComDir: http://dir.w3.org/directory/pages/about.docbook?view
14:56:30 [PhilA2]
bhyland: Talks through the input form for the Directory (or rather the RDF generator, Foaf-o-matic style)
14:56:38 [sandro]
bug report -- click on one of the contacts on http://dir.w3.org/directory/queries/org-view.rq?view&org=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.w3.org%2F2013%2F04%2Fgldcomdir.ttl%23org and you get five pop-up windows. Or I do, at least. (on firefox.)
14:57:30 [PhilA2]
bhyland: You get your dir.ttl file, publish that on a server somewhere and then tell the directory where to find it
14:57:43 [PhilA2]
PhilA2: I don't get those popups (Opera)
14:58:14 [PhilA2]
It's trivial, getting RDF on to people's sites etc.
14:58:15 [PhilA2]
q+
14:58:19 [BartvanLeeuwen]
q+
14:58:36 [DaveReynolds]
works on Chrome but do get 5 popups on firefox
14:58:39 [DeirdreLee_]
q+
14:58:42 [PhilA2]
bhyland: Putting the data there could be picked up by search etc.
14:59:01 [PhilA2]
ack Biplav
14:59:25 [PhilA2]
Biplav: First of all thank you for putting the Directory online. I see IBM is there
14:59:38 [PhilA2]
... I wonder how a richer description could be created
15:00:03 [PhilA2]
... IBM's Web site has 130 country and language combinations. You see different things depending where you are
15:00:14 [PhilA2]
... the Web site is managed by multiple groups
15:00:41 [PhilA2]
... the basic entry - I'd like to update it with the homepages of the different regions
15:01:21 [PhilA2]
... the main homepage of ibm.com redirects you. Is there a way to extract out the dependencies from data, if provided, based on its location etc.
15:01:47 [PhilA2]
bhyland: I love the idea and I'd be happy for 3 Round Stones to compete against others to implement that for you
15:02:15 [PhilA2]
bhyland: But it goes well beyond what the directory is currently designed to do
15:02:34 [gatemezi]
@biplav: why don't you suggest to describe IBM.com using org with all the sub-units?
15:02:55 [sandro]
+1 vocab-org
15:03:02 [PhilA2]
Biplav: Part of managing the Web site is part of each unit's responsibility
15:03:27 [fadmaa]
q?
15:03:29 [PhilA2]
... I was wondering whether we could use ORG etc. and so on to do this, distributed data management etc,
15:03:33 [PhilA2]
q-
15:03:38 [fadmaa]
q+
15:04:03 [PhilA2]
bhyland: So you'd like to see 130 different entries for IBM? That's going to skew the data set
15:04:58 [sandro]
Shouldn't we have 10,000 listings, once things are going well?
15:05:17 [sandro]
I mean, there are over 1,000,000 governments in the world.... :-)
15:05:26 [HadleyBeeman]
+1 to Sandro
15:05:33 [PhilA2]
Biplav: There is no central catalogue for IBM, all the parts are locally managed
15:05:39 [sandro]
q?
15:05:43 [screen]
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15:06:58 [PhilA2]
Furtehr discussion of Biplav's point about the way IBM's Web estate is managed
15:07:14 [bhyland]
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15:07:38 [PhilA2]
... we want to offer the relevant product catalogue - there is no central data source
15:07:52 [PhilA2]
bhyland: It's well beyond the scope of the community directory
15:08:26 [PhilA2]
... we're just trying to provide a basic directory that can hook up different people working on the same thing
15:09:43 [PhilA2]
HadleyBeeman: You're pointing out that the directory only ever gives one result irrespective of the user's location. It would be great to be able to accommodate that power if we can.
15:09:58 [PhilA2]
PhilA2: wonders where GeoSPARQL is the way to go here?
15:10:37 [PhilA2]
bhyland: We need nice looking, easy to use, easy to understand stuff suitably branded that happens to be based on LD
15:11:59 [HadleyBeeman]
q?
15:12:23 [PhilA2]
I just got the popup bug sandro
15:12:26 [HadleyBeeman]
ack bart
15:12:40 [PhilA2]
BartvanLeeuwen: Does it only support turtle?
15:12:51 [PhilA2]
bhyland: I found out today that, for now, yes.
15:13:04 [PhilA2]
BartvanLeeuwen: I was thinking about RDFa coming from Drupal for example
15:13:44 [PhilA2]
BartvanLeeuwen: A Drupal plug in that you could say "here's our company contact page" and then the directory could go off and get it from the RDFa
15:13:54 [PhilA2]
q+
15:14:27 [PhilA2]
BartvanLeeuwen: I notice that the update works (I've updated my entry)
15:15:02 [PhilA2]
BartvanLeeuwen: I wouldn't have the instructions for getting into the directory on the homepage. You want the directory itself
15:15:12 [PhilA2]
BartvanLeeuwen: And would adding more triples make it choke?
15:15:18 [PhilA2]
bhyland: Good question
15:15:44 [PhilA2]
BartvanLeeuwen: How about pointing to Open Corporates?
15:16:17 [PhilA2]
q+
15:16:51 [BartvanLeeuwen]
ack me
15:17:14 [sandro]
and does opencorps provide a URI for each corp, so we can link?
15:17:17 [HadleyBeeman]
ack phil
15:17:49 [HadleyBeeman]
Yes, sandro. Ex http://opencorporates.com/companies/ae_az/301890
15:17:54 [PhilA2]
bhyland: I like all these ideas
15:18:29 [sandro]
cool, so what's the property to use to link to those..... hm.
15:18:44 [PhilA2]
q+
15:18:50 [PhilA2]
ack de
15:19:03 [PhilA2]
DeirdreLee_: I thought it was easy to use, cool
15:19:16 [PhilA2]
DeirdreLee_: So it's not just gov linked data - good
15:20:17 [PhilA2]
DeirdreLee_: Can we provide a URL for an RDF catalogue for our products/projects?
15:21:10 [PhilA2]
DeirdreLee_: You want details of projects etc. We publish that already so it would be good just to point you to it
15:21:20 [BartvanLeeuwen]
q+
15:23:17 [PhilA2]
Deirdre and Bernadette continue to discuss various aspects
15:24:28 [BartvanLeeuwen]
q-
15:25:39 [PhilA2]
bhyland: The generator is just a foaf-o-matic. The directory will re-crawl the data every 6 hours so you can update it locally
15:26:27 [PhilA2]
BartvanLeeuwen: It would be good it it crawled so it would crawl multiple files/sources
15:28:43 [PhilA2]
bhyland: You want to be able to put ttl files across the site?
15:29:29 [sandro]
or owl:import for something stronger than rdfs:seeAlso
15:29:34 [PhilA2]
BartvanLeeuwen: No, if my file references to other files then will it/can it harvest them too?
15:30:26 [HadleyBeeman]
q+
15:30:27 [gatemezi]
@Sandro: owl:import is still in use out there ? :)
15:31:24 [PhilA2]
HadleyBeeman: Querying company type list. Seems a little limited so far
15:33:03 [Zakim]
-Biplav
15:33:29 [PhilA2]
ack fadmaa
15:33:34 [HadleyBeeman]
q-
15:33:48 [PhilA2]
fadmaa: I like that I can get the entry specific RDF. Can I get all of it in one go?
15:34:11 [fadmaa]
ack me
15:34:16 [PhilA2]
ack me
15:34:44 [Zakim]
-MakxDekkers
15:36:11 [Zakim]
+MakxDekkers
15:37:38 [PhilA2]
zakim, mute MakxDekkers
15:37:38 [Zakim]
MakxDekkers should now be muted
15:38:28 [sandro]
+1 folks should publish all the data they want, and let the directory filter!
15:38:32 [sandro]
q?
15:38:36 [HadleyBeeman]
q+ to start the conversation about what's next for the Community Directory
15:39:07 [sandro]
If the data is too big, use SPARQL.
15:40:44 [PhilA2]
ack HadleyBeeman
15:40:44 [Zakim]
HadleyBeeman, you wanted to start the conversation about what's next for the Community Directory
15:41:59 [PhilA2]
I did this recently - similar http://philarcher.org/diary/2013/euromap/
15:43:40 [PhilA2]
agreement that the problem is projection, not the implementation
15:43:42 [sandro]
looking again at http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Map_projection#Equal-area
15:43:55 [PhilA2]
could make the colours less stark by reducing contrast
15:44:18 [PhilA2]
HadleyBeeman: You could use OSM with pins rather than colouring the whole country
15:44:45 [sandro]
size of the pin
15:44:46 [sandro]
yes
15:44:50 [Mike_Pendleton]
yes
15:44:54 [sandro]
size of the a circle.
15:44:59 [bhyland]
Here is the map I'm projecting: http://usepa.3roundstones.net/rdf/2012/usepa/nuclear-demo/nuclear-map.xhtml?view
15:45:08 [Mike_Pendleton]
+1
15:47:19 [PhilA2]
HadleyBeeman: What actually is the map for?
15:47:23 [DaveReynolds]
Decision to make is whether you want to use this for navigation or to summarize where things are hot.
15:47:35 [PhilA2]
bhyland: To show potential decision makers what's available. Location often matters
15:47:42 [DaveReynolds]
For navigation use pins. For density of activity use a heat map.
15:49:07 [gatemezi]
It seems like http://dir.w3.org/directory/schema# is 404...
15:49:18 [PhilA2]
HadleyBeeman: Government departments like working with people who have experience of their area
15:52:20 [PhilA2]
BartvanLeeuwen: You could include social media presence (as org:Organization equivalent class foaf:Organization)
15:53:00 [gatemezi]
q+
15:53:35 [Zakim]
-MakxDekkers
15:54:23 [gatemezi]
http://leafletjs.com/examples/quick-start.html
15:54:33 [PhilA2]
gatemezi: You can include locations as well as addresses
15:54:37 [HadleyBeeman]
http://xmlns.com/foaf/spec/#sec-glance for the Social Web
15:54:40 [PhilA2]
q- gatemezi
15:55:04 [PhilA2]
gatemezi: You can show the location on a map on the page
15:55:21 [PhilA2]
gatemezi: Also the dir schema itslef is a 404
15:57:48 [MakxDekkers]
all, just ran out of credit and got disconnected. planning to start fresh tomorrow at 10 your time. have a nice dinner
15:58:00 [HadleyBeeman]
Bye, Makxdekkers!
15:58:01 [PhilA2]
thanks MakxDekkers - bye
15:59:30 [PhilA2]
HadleyBeeman: It's 5 o'clock
15:59:30 [fadmaa]
I also suggest reconsidering the 3D pie charts... they've got awful reputation :)
16:03:10 [PhilA]
topic: The future of the Community Directory
16:03:11 [HadleyBeeman]
http://www.w3.org/2011/gld/wiki/Community_Directory_Timetable
16:03:50 [PhilA]
HadleyBeeman: We have the idea that the directory needs a new supporting group
16:04:09 [PhilA]
bhyland: We're on the way to setting up a Community Group to support it
16:05:30 [PhilA]
PhilA: Questions the long term sustainability of a CG dedicated to this
16:06:26 [PhilA]
sandro: Is it only LD, is it only government? Is it anything vaguely touching on W3C?
16:06:36 [PhilA]
sandro: If we can slide it that way then it's plenty sexy
16:06:49 [PhilA]
sandro: It's a directory of people associated with W3C technology
16:07:12 [PhilA]
q+
16:07:42 [sandro]
sandro: How about: Building a Decentralized Directory of People/Organizations/Projects Related to W3C Technologies (Starting With Government Linked Data)
16:08:37 [PhilA]
q-
16:08:44 [bhyland]
+1 sandro
16:10:28 [sandro]
+1 at some point flag W3C Members as such.
16:10:41 [PhilA]
BartvanLeeuwen: Should the directoty highlight members?
16:10:43 [PhilA]
+1
16:10:46 [BartvanLeeuwen]
+1
16:10:50 [HadleyBeeman]
+1
16:10:51 [PhilA]
agreement on that
16:10:55 [sandro]
https://www.w3.org/Member/ACList and the RDF is somewhere....
16:10:58 [DaveReynolds]
0
16:12:18 [PhilA]
http://www.w3.org/Consortium/sup
16:14:20 [PhilA]
bhyland: Aim was to highlight the ecosystem of LD
16:14:35 [PhilA]
... want 100s of projects etc.
16:15:10 [PhilA]
HadleyBeeman: Are we putting the product ahead of the use case?
16:15:20 [PhilA]
BartvanLeeuwen: It's in the charter, there is a demand for it
16:17:00 [PhilA]
bhyland: It's about answering people in gov questioning whether this LD thing is actually supported.
16:17:03 [HadleyBeeman]
for the government linked data space, yes. But expanding beyond that (to the entire W3C community, however we define that, or everyone who feels connected to the W3C) is very different situation. Merits some signficant scoping and requirements assessment.
16:17:30 [HadleyBeeman]
(that was building on "Are we putting the product ahead of the use case?")
16:17:56 [PhilA]
DeirdreLee_: It's useful for people finding out what other parts of the same organisation are doing, never mind what others are up to
16:20:07 [PhilA]
HadleyBeeman: So what are we going to do with the community directory ahead of the charter end
16:20:41 [PhilA]
bhyland: we can set up a CG but if there's a home it could be in that already exists then we can do that
16:21:41 [PhilA]
PhilA: The putative Open Data WG could be a home for it, or yes, a CG
16:22:20 [PhilA]
sandro: I think it would be a poor fit for ODWG. It's a specific thing and needs its own group. Not all open data people will want to support the dir
16:23:01 [PhilA]
bhyland: We're not going to wait. We're going to set up a CG with 5+ members
16:23:07 [bhyland]
Propose: Set up a community group with 5 members and plan to move the ongoing support & maintenance to the CG.
16:23:30 [HadleyBeeman]
+1
16:23:32 [bhyland]
+1
16:23:33 [PhilA]
+1
16:23:33 [BartvanLeeuwen]
+
16:23:42 [BartvanLeeuwen]
+1
16:23:48 [PhilA]
RESOLVED Set up a community group with 5 members and plan to move the ongoing support & maintenance to the CG.
16:23:49 [fadmaa]
+1
16:24:19 [DeirdreLee_]
+1
16:24:22 [bhyland]
Action: Bernadette to get the W3 Dir-o-matic Community Group
16:24:24 [trackbot]
Created ACTION-114 - Get the W3 Dir-o-matic Community Group [on Bernadette Hyland - due 2013-04-18].
16:24:48 [PhilA]
sandro: Suggest calling it the dir.w3.org CG
16:25:07 [bhyland]
s/Dir-o-matic/dir.w3.org
16:25:38 [sandro]
bhyland, that s/// command wont actually change the action, just how the action appears in these minutes. Messy.
16:26:08 [PhilA]
topic: Tomorrow's agenda
16:26:35 [bhyland]
We are closing Day #1 with many things done, not the least of which is a working definition of a "dataset", see https://dvcs.w3.org/hg/gld/raw-file/default/glossary/index.html#dataset
16:26:36 [DaveReynolds]
Don't think ORG will take an hour.
16:27:11 [PhilA]
HadleyBeeman: Good news that ORG won't take an hour. How long will it take?
16:27:24 [HadleyBeeman]
^davereynolds?
16:28:07 [DaveReynolds]
Hmm. Mic problem. Was trying to say it is probably 30min but might be surprised by what discussion is sparked.
16:28:20 [DaveReynolds]
Fine
16:29:53 [PhilA]
bhyland: We should have a tracker review and cleanup
16:30:05 [PhilA]
rrsagent, generate minutes
16:30:05 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2013/04/11-gld-minutes.html PhilA
16:30:49 [sandro]
?
16:31:03 [sandro]
so fix the typos?
16:32:29 [Zakim]
-Mike_Pendleton
16:32:34 [sandro]
PhilA, so are you editing the minutes at all? because if so our data is all out of sync.
16:33:02 [fadmaa_]
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16:33:39 [PhilA]
meeting adjourned
16:33:51 [DaveReynolds]
bye all, have a good evening
16:34:03 [Zakim]
-DaveReynolds
16:34:12 [Zakim]
-Sandro
16:34:14 [bhyland]
Bye all, I'll drink a pint of Guiness for you!
16:35:06 [DaveReynolds]
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16:35:36 [bhyland]
Dinner at 19.00 at http://www.elephantandcastle.ie/
16:54:06 [sandro]
testing
17:02:06 [bhyland]
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17:05:01 [Zakim]
disconnecting the lone participant, GLDMeetingRoom, in T&S_(GLD)3:00AM
17:05:02 [Zakim]
T&S_(GLD)3:00AM has ended
17:05:02 [Zakim]
Attendees were +34.63.926.aaaa, MakxDekkers, martinA, DaveReynolds, bhyland, BartvanLeeuwen, cygri, Christophe, PhilA3, HadleyBeeman, Boris, Deirdre, fadmaa, Ghislain, Sandro,
17:05:02 [Zakim]
... DeirdreLee, cgueret2, gatemezi, PhilA, Mike_Pendleton, GLDMeetingRoom, +91.80.67.84.aabb, Biplav
17:25:14 [BartvanLeeuwen]
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