IRC log of css on 2013-04-10

Timestamps are in UTC.

15:31:51 [RRSAgent]
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15:31:51 [RRSAgent]
logging to
15:31:55 [glazou]
Zakim, this will be Style
15:31:56 [Zakim]
ok, glazou; I see Style_CSS FP()12:00PM scheduled to start in 29 minutes
15:31:59 [glazou]
RRSAgent, make logs public
15:45:01 [SimonSapin]
radial-gradient() is cra
15:45:03 [SimonSapin]
15:45:08 [SimonSapin]
(but coming to WeasyPrint)
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15:53:21 [glazou]
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15:55:30 [Zakim]
Style_CSS FP()12:00PM has now started
15:55:37 [Zakim]
15:55:41 [glazou]
Zakim, ??P26 is me
15:55:42 [Zakim]
+glazou; got it
15:55:49 [glazou]
Regrets: leaverou
15:56:11 [Zakim]
15:56:21 [Zakim]
15:56:21 [glazou]
Regrets: +florian, danielweck, SimonPieters
15:57:41 [Zakim]
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15:59:31 [Zakim]
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16:00:07 [nvdbleek]
zakim, code?
16:00:07 [Zakim]
the conference code is 78953 (tel:+1.617.761.6200, nvdbleek
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16:01:34 [nvdbleek]
zakim, mute me
16:01:34 [Zakim]
nvdbleek should now be muted
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16:01:57 [Zakim]
16:02:17 [Rossen]
zakim, microsoft has me
16:02:18 [Zakim]
+Rossen; got it
16:02:39 [Zakim]
16:02:43 [Zakim]
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16:03:00 [Zakim]
16:03:03 [Zakim]
16:03:11 [smfr]
smfr has changed the topic to:
16:03:29 [TabAtkins_]
Good idea, smfr.
16:03:38 [Zakim]
+ +47.23.69.aaaa
16:03:39 [JohnJansen_]
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16:03:45 [leif1]
Zakim, aaaa is me
16:03:45 [Zakim]
+leif1; got it
16:03:49 [glazou]
yeah, I'll do that for future conf calls, thanks smfr
16:03:50 [Zakim]
16:03:50 [JohnJansen_]
Zakim, Microsoft has JohnJansen
16:03:51 [Zakim]
+JohnJansen; got it
16:04:11 [smfr]
zakim, who's typing noisily?
16:04:11 [Zakim]
I don't understand your question, smfr.
16:04:12 [SteveZ]
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16:04:14 [SimonSapin]
somone is typing next to their mike
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16:04:29 [JohnJansen_]
Zakim, Microsoft has JohnJansen
16:04:29 [Zakim]
JohnJansen was already listed in [Microsoft], JohnJansen_
16:04:50 [TabAtkins_]
ScribeNick: TabAtkins_
16:04:58 [TabAtkins_]
glazou: Three extra agenda items.
16:05:10 [Zakim]
16:05:12 [Zakim]
16:05:15 [TabAtkins_]
glazou: First from Tab about Varaibles, next from Variables about text-decor, another from Simon Sapin about scinot.
16:05:20 [hober]
Zakim, Apple is me
16:05:20 [Zakim]
+hober; got it
16:05:33 [TabAtkins_]
Topic: Line-breaking proposal
16:05:34 [glazou]
16:05:43 [Zakim]
16:05:53 [TabAtkins_]
liam: I'll just go over general purpose.
16:05:54 [koji]
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16:05:55 [Zakim]
16:05:56 [arronei]
zakim, microsoft has me
16:05:57 [Zakim]
+arronei; got it
16:06:08 [TabAtkins_]
liam: When you add things like hyphenation, etc. you quickly want to use a lb algorithm that considers more than one line at a time.
16:06:10 [Zakim]
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16:06:26 [TabAtkins_]
liam: It's mor eimportant in print than on the screen, because print has "show-through", where you can see a shadow of what's on the other side of the sheet.
16:06:56 [TabAtkins_]
liam: This proposal is to let an author/script say "this piece of text is going to be interactively edited"...
16:07:00 [Zakim]
16:07:00 [Zakim]
16:07:08 [TabAtkins_]
liam: I imagine a print processor would set this to "batch" - not edited.
16:07:10 [koji]
zakim, [ipcaller] is me
16:07:10 [Zakim]
+koji; got it
16:07:21 [MaRakow]
zakim, microsoft has me
16:07:21 [Zakim]
+MaRakow; got it
16:07:36 [TabAtkins_]
liam: You care about editted or not because if you insert a word in the middle of a paragraph, and you use a multi-line linebreaking algo, your text will reflow and your inseration point might move up or down a line.
16:08:00 [TabAtkins_]
liam: Some programs handle this by only reflowing when you finish editing, but it's ugly in the meantime. It's a problem with a long history.
16:08:04 [israelh]
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16:08:09 [TabAtkins_]
liam: Two parts of this proposal:
16:08:17 [TabAtkins_]
liam: 1) Say your intent, interactive or batch.
16:08:26 [TabAtkins_]
liam: 2) Second, experimentally,s ay waht algorithm to use.
16:09:17 [TabAtkins_]
TabAtkins_: Is the "interactive" mode about just editting, or about reflowing as well?
16:09:23 [TabAtkins_]
liam: It only matters if the user is in there.
16:09:40 [TabAtkins_]
liam: If the text reflows and you care about a particular line of text, that's the same problem you've already got.
16:10:33 [TabAtkins_]
TabAtkins_: Okay, next concern - I thought the problem with the TeX algorithm was it being too complex/slow. Has that changed?
16:11:00 [TabAtkins_]
liam: It's slow, yes, but normal text is also really mediocre. It has really bad cases that you need markup to fix, because it's meant to be manually checked.
16:11:23 [TabAtkins_]
liam: Commercial products almost all use an n-line algorithm, that's only slightly slower than the current linear linebreaking (still O(n))0.
16:11:37 [TabAtkins_]
liam: With that, you can get quality of linebreaking close to the best commercial.
16:11:48 [TabAtkins_]
SimonSapin: Is this related to Adobe's "text balancing" proposal?
16:12:08 [TabAtkins_]
stearns: Don't think so. You can implement text-balacing in a more complex linebreaking algo, but it's not necessary.
16:12:19 [TabAtkins_]
glazou: Do you think this is for both print and screen media.
16:12:36 [TabAtkins_]
liam: Both.
16:13:08 [TabAtkins_]
TabAtkins_: Yeah, I know plenty of people who would want good text on the screen.
16:13:18 [TabAtkins_]
glazou: I think the next step is an ED.
16:13:37 [TabAtkins_]
liam: I wasn't sure whether the best step was Text 4 or a new draft.
16:13:52 [TabAtkins_]
fantasai: I think it should go in Text 4.
16:14:07 [TabAtkins_]
fantasai: Text 4 needs to be synced up with Text 3 (the text is old, becasue we branched a while ago).
16:14:14 [TabAtkins_]
fantasai: Once it's synced up, we can add things to it.
16:14:28 [TabAtkins_]
liam: When you get to this bit, I'll happily help.
16:14:49 [TabAtkins_]
ACTION fantasai to add Liam's line-breaking proposal to Text 4.
16:14:49 [trackbot]
Created ACTION-553 - Add Liam's line-breaking proposal to Text 4. [on Elika Etemad - due 2013-04-17].
16:14:59 [TabAtkins_]
ACTION liam to help fantasai add his line-breaking proposal to Text 4.
16:14:59 [trackbot]
Created ACTION-554 - Help fantasai add his line-breaking proposal to Text 4. [on Liam Quin - due 2013-04-17].
16:15:11 [glazou]
16:15:27 [krit]
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16:15:32 [TabAtkins_]
Topic: image-rendering: smooth.
16:15:38 [TabAtkins_]
smfr: Don't think there's anything to say here.
16:15:53 [TabAtkins_]
TabAtkins_: Yes, I'm fine with the editting. Was just on vacation last week, so haven't done it yet.
16:15:56 [TabAtkins_]
Topic: Variables LC
16:16:22 [glazou]
TabAtkins_ { speech-rate: slower; }, please
16:16:43 [fantasai]
Rename all the things!
16:16:52 [TabAtkins_]
TabAtkins_: I asked for LC a few weeks ago, but jdaggett wanted a new WD first to pull out feedback. I've done so, and it was useful. Can I go to LC again now?
16:17:15 [TabAtkins_]
SimonSapin: I have some questions about how the Syntax works with Syntax 3, but I can handle that on the list. It's technical, but I don't think it'll change anything.
16:17:20 [TabAtkins_]
glazou: objections?
16:17:40 [TabAtkins_]
Bert: I don't object, but I don't think we need it...
16:18:14 [TabAtkins_]
RESOLVED: Variables move to LC.
16:18:54 [Zakim]
16:19:06 [TabAtkins_]
Bert: We need to decide as a group what other WGs to talk to.
16:19:14 [krit]
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16:19:19 [TabAtkins_]
TabAtkins_: WebApps.
16:19:22 [TabAtkins_]
glazou: SVG.
16:19:23 [TabAtkins_]
glazou: HTML?
16:19:35 [TabAtkins_]
TabAtkins_: Sure, though most of their connection will be through webapps work.
16:20:15 [TabAtkins_]
RESOLVED: Inform WebApps, SVG, and HTML about Variables LC.
16:20:19 [glazou]
16:20:20 [TabAtkins_]
Topic: Selectors 4 issues
16:21:06 [TabAtkins_]
glazou: Speaking of Selectors, I think some sections of the document (time-based pseudos, for example), need a review from the WG.
16:21:34 [TabAtkins_]
fantasai: I brought that up on www-style/at a f2f, but nobody had comments.
16:21:44 [TabAtkins_]
glazou: Right. Everyone, if you have spare cycles, read Selectors 4 and give comments.
16:21:52 [TabAtkins_]
fantasai: First issue is about adopting MQ-style invalidation.
16:22:01 [TabAtkins_]
fantasai: Currently, any invalid selectors invalidates the entire list.
16:22:11 [TabAtkins_]
fantasai: Alternative is to just drop the selector that's invalid (split by commas).
16:22:27 [TabAtkins_]
fantasai: But this seems to be quite web-incompatible, because people depend on this behavior.
16:22:41 [TabAtkins_]
sylvaing: How do people depend on this?
16:23:07 [TabAtkins_]
glazou: Right now there are style rules which are fully invalid because of one selector, and they never noticed the wasted rule. If you change, it'll start applying and change the page.
16:23:11 [tantek]
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16:23:47 [Zakim]
16:23:48 [TabAtkins_]
TabAtkins_: And there is some history of people using prefixed selectors in the selector list as a browser hack, and this would change the behavior they're depending on.
16:23:59 [TabAtkins_]
RESOLVED: Do not adopt MQ-style invalidation for Selectors.
16:24:12 [TabAtkins_]
fantasai: Next issue is whether id selectors should accept all hash tokens, or just hash tokens with an ident value.
16:24:19 [krit]
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16:24:22 [TabAtkins_]
fantasai: For example, #1 is a valid hash token, but not a valid id selector.
16:24:44 [TabAtkins_]
fantasai: HTML now, I believe, allows ids that start with a number.
16:24:47 [glazou]
Regrets: dbaron
16:25:05 [tantek]
it does
16:25:55 [TabAtkins_]
glazou: Do you think this has compat impact?
16:26:01 [TabAtkins_]
TabAtkins_: I suspect this is used much less.
16:26:42 [krit]
zakim, me is with rhauck
16:26:42 [Zakim]
+krit; got it
16:26:44 [TabAtkins_]
arronei: Isn't this the same case as the last one? Groups could be invalid currently that would become valid.
16:26:46 [Zakim]
16:26:53 [tantek]
Zakim, mute Tantek
16:26:53 [Zakim]
Tantek should now be muted
16:27:40 [TabAtkins_]
glazou: If HTML now allows non-ident selectors, then this is a needed hange.
16:27:49 [TabAtkins_]
SimonSapin: Any way to assess the impact of this change?
16:27:56 [TabAtkins_]
[discussion about using Google resources for this]
16:28:07 [TabAtkins_]
hober: It's hard to say without data.
16:28:25 [tantek]
Zakim, unmute Tantek
16:28:25 [Zakim]
Tantek should no longer be muted
16:28:27 [TabAtkins_]
Rossen: We'd have to run a query and see how many hits we have. Without data, we're uncomfortable committing.
16:28:44 [TabAtkins_]
tantek: I don't have any hard data, but I can give you anecdotally...
16:29:06 [TabAtkins_]
tantek: One fo the things that happens in mediawiki pages is that whatever you use as a heading/subheading gets turned into an id.
16:29:15 [TabAtkins_]
tantek: So if you have a heading start with a number, that's the id.
16:29:32 [TabAtkins_]
tantek: One major complaint I hear is headings that are just numbers.
16:29:41 [TabAtkins_]
tantek: Whether they're getting styled or not, I have no idea.
16:30:50 [TabAtkins_]
TabAtkins_: I can confirm that browsers are pretty consistenet about allowing full hash tokens in Quirks mode, but only restricted ident hashes in Standards mode.
16:31:09 [TabAtkins_]
glazou: Two members of the WG are asking for data here.
16:31:20 [TabAtkins_]
ACTION tab to look for data on non-ident hash usage.
16:31:20 [trackbot]
Created ACTION-555 - Look for data on non-ident hash usage. [on Tab Atkins Jr. - due 2013-04-17].
16:31:21 [glazou]
16:32:00 [TabAtkins_]
fantasai: child-index pseudos (:nth-child(), etc.) don't work on unparented elements, such as :root. This makes sense there, because there's not much sense in having them apply to root, but there's alow the issue of documetn fragments.
16:32:15 [TabAtkins_]
fantasai: (the top-level elements in a document fragment wont' match :nth-child())
16:32:36 [TabAtkins_]
fantasai: The only argument I've heard against it is that the word "child" is in the name, so it should only apply to children.
16:32:48 [TabAtkins_]
glazou: We deal only with elements in CSS.
16:33:31 [fantasai]
[tab explains things wrt DocumentFragment case becoming more common, shadow dom, etc]
16:34:00 [BradK]
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16:34:16 [TabAtkins_]
fantasai: Ideally in the beginning we would have called it :nth-sibling...
16:34:19 [fantasai]
fantasai: We wouldn't be having this argument if it were called :nth-sibling
16:34:34 [fantasai]
glazou: Then let's add a new pseudo-class
16:34:40 [SimonSapin]
not 1 new pseudo-classes, 11 of them
16:34:49 [tantek]
FYI: regarding ID selectors that start with numbers, we do test for the non-support - in the CSS 2.1 test suite:
16:34:54 [TabAtkins_]
glazou: I would prefer a new pseudoclass.
16:34:56 [fantasai]
TabAtkins: It's silly and confusing to add new pseudo-class that means exactly the same thing except when selecting root or DocumentFragment elements
16:35:06 [tantek]
that's why we have interop among browsers for non-support of ID selectors that start with a number.
16:35:59 [tantek]
Zakim, mute tantek
16:35:59 [Zakim]
Tantek should now be muted
16:36:27 [TabAtkins_]
glazou: I don't think it should apply to root.
16:36:49 [TabAtkins_]
TabAtkins_: I'm fine with that, if it applies to docfrags and shadow dom and the like.
16:37:58 [TabAtkins_]
glazou: I could live with an addition to the shadow DOM spec that says shadow roots act like a parent.
16:38:12 [TabAtkins_]
TabAtkins_: Then we'd have to add the same thing to DOM for docfrags.
16:38:44 [TabAtkins_]
The pseudo-classes defined in this section select elements based on their index in their parent's list of children (or, if they have no parent, by their index in the list of them and their siblings).
16:39:16 [SimonSapin]
can DocumentFragment contain multiple "root" elements?
16:39:30 [oyvind]
16:39:36 [TabAtkins_]
no. ^_^
16:39:51 [TabAtkins_]
Bert: What does :root match in document fragments?
16:39:56 [SimonSapin]
… ?
16:40:03 [TabAtkins_]
TabAtkins_: Nothing, I believe. There's no root element in a docfrag.
16:40:18 [oyvind]
well, a documentfragment can have multiple child nodes
16:40:39 [oyvind]
I figured that was what SimonSapin meant :)
16:40:47 [SimonSapin]
oyvind: yes
16:40:55 [TabAtkins_]
16:40:59 [SimonSapin]
in that case it makes sense for :nth-child() to apply
16:41:06 [TabAtkins_]
Bert: I'm trying to find the similarities between document and docfrag.
16:42:14 [TabAtkins_]
Bert: If we do this for :nth-child, maybe we shoudl do it for :root too.
16:42:51 [TabAtkins_]
TabAtkins_: Nah, no need. :nth-child() is being redefined into just based on siblings. :root is still about document roots, which docfrags don't have.
16:43:00 [TabAtkins_]
glazou: I'm okay with this change, though I don't like it.
16:43:47 [TabAtkins_]
RESOLVED: :nth-child()/etc don't require a parent - they're based on siblings.
16:44:14 [TabAtkins_]
antonp: Can we have a note saying that the name doesn't make much sense anymore?
16:44:16 [TabAtkins_]
fantasai: Yes.
16:44:19 [Zakim]
16:44:29 [Zakim]
16:44:44 [TabAtkins_]
Bert: It seems that your addition makes :first-child apply to the root element, which wasn't the case before.
16:45:55 [TabAtkins_]
Bert: So should there be text saying that it only applies to docfrags, not roots?
16:45:56 [tantek]
Zakim, who was making noise?
16:45:56 [Zakim]
I don't understand your question, tantek.
16:46:07 [glazou]
thanks for attending liam
16:46:10 [Zakim]
16:46:11 [liam]
thank you!
16:46:21 [TabAtkins_]
TabAtkins_: I don't think that's necessary. Incidence of :first-child selectors that accidentally hit the root should be so low as to be effectively zero.
16:46:46 [Zakim]
16:47:05 [TabAtkins_]
fantasai: We'll come back with final phrasing so everyone can comment.
16:47:32 [TabAtkins_]
Bert: I'm not comfortable with changing things for existing documents. Probably rare for HTML, but there are many other kinds of documents.
16:47:48 [Zakim]
16:48:12 [TabAtkins_]
Bert: Ther'es a use-case for fragments, but not for normal documents.
16:48:56 [glazou]
16:48:59 [TabAtkins_]
TabAtkins_: I'm fine with discussing on the list whether :root and :nth-child/etc should be mutuallye xclusive.
16:49:02 [TabAtkins_]
Bert: That's fine.
16:49:15 [TabAtkins_]
fantasai: Next issue is about the specificity of :matches() and :not().
16:49:25 [TabAtkins_]
fantasai: Currently the specificity of :matches is the spec. of the most specific selector inside it.
16:49:55 [TabAtkins_]
fantasai: proposal was to make it the most specifci selector that actually matched, so that it truly becomes syntactic sugar for the combinatorial-explosion of multiple selectors.
16:50:05 [TabAtkins_]
fantasai: I think there's no reason not to take this, except that it's slightly annoying to implement.
16:50:18 [TabAtkins_]
SimonSapin: I brought up that it's not possible to do this when converting selectors to XPath.
16:50:50 [glazou]
16:50:54 [TabAtkins_]
TabAtkins_: Yeah, while XPaqth and Selectors are very similar techs, they both ahve edge-cases that can't be converted. It's fine, I think.
16:51:15 [TabAtkins_]
RESOLVED: Changed specificy of :matches()/:not() to the specificity of the actual matched selector.
16:51:21 [SimonSapin]
SimonSapin: but we should still do it because even in Selectors 3 some corner cases can (probably) not be expressed in XPath
16:51:28 [TabAtkins_]
fantasai: Next topic, :empty is pretty useless for most people.
16:51:49 [TabAtkins_]
fantasai: It only selects elements with no nodes, which means that whitespace makes it not match, even though that gets collapsed away in HTML.
16:52:17 [TabAtkins_]
fantasai: We can redefine :empty to also match if the element is only filled with whitespace, or we can make a new pseudoclass for it.
16:52:20 [TabAtkins_]
glazou: I recommend the latter.
16:52:26 [TabAtkins_]
fantasai: Is there a use-case for the former?
16:52:47 [tantek]
we have a test for :empty that checks to make sure it is NOT applied to an element with only white-space:
16:52:49 [TabAtkins_]
Bert: Something with a space isn't empty.
16:53:01 [tantek]
therefore we have interop on it in current form
16:53:06 [TabAtkins_]
glazou: I used :empty as it is for something in Gecko.
16:53:27 [tantek]
so changing it would break all browsers
16:53:33 [TabAtkins_]
fantasai: So what would we name it?
16:53:37 [TabAtkins_]
Bert: :blank?
16:53:40 [tantek]
16:53:45 [glazou]
tantek, yes
16:53:47 [fantasai]
tantek, it's potentially empty
16:53:58 [tantek]
space is pretty empty ;)
16:54:07 [TabAtkins_]
fantasai: I thought we might use that for empty inputs...
16:54:13 [SimonSapin]
16:54:20 [TabAtkins_]
SimonSapin: Would this select elements with other empty children?
16:54:35 [TabAtkins_]
fantasai: No, only elements that contain nothing or insignificant whitespace.
16:54:40 [tantek]
16:54:45 [TabAtkins_]
glazou: What about :almost-empty?
16:54:47 [plinss]
16:54:56 [leif1]
16:54:59 [Rossen]
16:55:03 [TabAtkins_]
16:55:06 [BradK]
16:55:30 [tantek]
16:55:35 [TabAtkins_]
glazou: We agree on the selector, but still need to come up with a good name.
16:55:39 [jdovey]
16:56:14 [Rossen]
16:56:15 [tantek]
16:56:17 [fantasai]
szilles: :void
16:56:20 [TabAtkins_]
RESOLUTION: Define a new selector that matches empty or insignificatn whitespace.
16:56:24 [BradK]
16:56:28 [fantasai]
TabAtkins: Confusing because void refers to what :empty currently means
16:56:39 [glazou]
16:56:56 [TabAtkins_]
fantasai: :matches() was always intended to be able to accept complex selectors (with combinators).
16:57:12 [TabAtkins_]
fantasai: Right now the Selectors 4 draft has explicitly excluded them, due to performance concerns.
16:57:23 [TabAtkins_]
fantasai: But this confuses everybody, because they want complex selectors, and ask for new features.
16:57:48 [TabAtkins_]
fantasai: Also, the performance concerns don't appyl to batch processors or Selectors API - only to CSS Selectors.
16:58:18 [TabAtkins_]
fantasai: So the idea is to define "fast" and "complete" profiles. "fast" is only compound selectors in :matches()/:not(), "complete" is everything.
16:58:26 [TabAtkins_]
fantasai: We want to mark this as at-risk.
16:58:38 [TabAtkins_]
fantasai: The alternative is to just include complex selectors and mark the whole thing as at-risk.
16:58:48 [TabAtkins_]
fantasai: We just want to find out what implementations actually want to do.
16:59:08 [TabAtkins_]
glazou: I have a problem. It implies that after CR we may have shipped impls of either profile, so inconsistency for the web.
17:00:07 [TabAtkins_]
glazou: I understand you have the two profiles for Selectors API.
17:00:10 [Zakim]
17:00:53 [TabAtkins_]
glazou: I'd prefer that the fast profile be explicitly limited to CSS Selectors, and complete be for everything. Then we can decide to open up the profiles later.
17:01:20 [TabAtkins_]
SimonSapin: I'm concerned that the same impl could match different profiles based on the use (print vs live, etc.)
17:01:24 [TabAtkins_]
fantasai: I'm fine with this.
17:01:33 [TabAtkins_]
fantasai: I just want to reduce confusion in the spec.
17:01:56 [TabAtkins_]
plinss: If we later allow browser to implement the complete profile, there will still be a transitional state, so I'm not sure what we buy here.
17:02:47 [TabAtkins_]
fantasai: If everyone's ready for it, there will be a short transition period, as opposed to the current undefined transition.
17:03:16 [TabAtkins_]
glazou: What if we just mark the complete profile as being informative, with it being defined normatively in the future?
17:03:27 [TabAtkins_]
TabAtkins_: I'm opposed to that, because I want Selectors API to pick it up.
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17:03:41 [TabAtkins_]
glazou: I'm okay with that.
17:03:41 [Zakim]
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RESOLVED: Accept the two profiles of Selectors, with "fast" for CSS Selectors and "complete" for Selectors API.
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Style_CSS FP()12:00PM has ended
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Attendees were glazou, sgalineau, plinss, Stearns, rhauck, glenn, antonp, SimonSapin, Plh, Tab_Atkins, djackson, nvdbleek, Rossen, smfr, [Microsoft], SteveZ, Liam, +47.23.69.aaaa,
17:04:28 [Zakim]
... leif1, BradK, JohnJansen, jdovey, hober, fantasai, arronei, Bert, koji, MaRakow, krit, Tantek
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