20:59:36 <RRSAgent> RRSAgent has joined #svg
20:59:36 <RRSAgent> logging to http://www.w3.org/2013/04/04-svg-irc
20:59:38 <trackbot> RRSAgent, make logs public
20:59:38 <Zakim> Zakim has joined #svg
20:59:40 <trackbot> Zakim, this will be GA_SVGWG
20:59:40 <Zakim> ok, trackbot; I see GA_SVGWG(SVG1)5:00PM scheduled to start in 1 minute
20:59:41 <trackbot> Meeting: SVG Working Group Teleconference
20:59:41 <trackbot> Date: 04 April 2013
21:00:39 <Zakim> GA_SVGWG(SVG1)5:00PM has now started
21:00:46 <Zakim> +[IPcaller]
21:00:48 <heycam> Zakim, [ is me
21:00:48 <Zakim> +heycam; got it
21:00:57 <heycam> Agenda: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-svg-wg/2013AprJun/0005.html
21:00:59 <Zakim> +Doug_Schepers
21:00:59 <heycam> Chair: Cameron
21:01:05 <Zakim> +nikos
21:01:30 <Zakim> +[IPcaller]
21:01:39 <birtles> Zakim, [IPcaller] is me
21:01:39 <Zakim> +birtles; got it
21:01:41 <Zakim> +[IPcaller]
21:01:48 <ed> Zakim, [IP is me
21:01:48 <Zakim> +ed; got it
21:01:54 <Zakim> + +33.9.53.77.aaaa
21:01:57 <Zakim> - +33.9.53.77.aaaa
21:02:42 <krit> calling in in a moment
21:03:52 <Tav> yes
21:04:02 <Zakim> + +33.9.53.77.aabb
21:04:03 <Zakim> + +1.415.832.aacc
21:04:19 <krit> zakim, aacc is me
21:04:19 <Zakim> +krit; got it
21:04:25 <Tav> zakim, aabb is me
21:04:25 <Zakim> +Tav; got it
21:05:00 <krit> scribeNick: krit
21:05:12 <krit> topic: tecon time
21:05:30 <Zakim> +Rich_Schwerdtfeger
21:05:48 <krit> heycam: sent a mail with possible options
21:08:06 <krit> Tav: what about switching bi-weekly
21:08:13 <krit> heycam: thought about that
21:08:26 <krit> krit: might be confusing
21:09:01 <krit> heycam: what about 6AM?
21:09:06 <krit> Tav: would work for me
21:09:20 <krit> heycam: it is 9PM PST
21:09:27 <krit> richardschwerdtfeger: well, I am in the middle
21:10:48 <krit> richardschwerdtfeger: would be 12 in the morning
21:14:59 <Zakim> +cabanier
21:15:38 <krit> heycam: should we have 60min instead?
21:15:42 <krit> krit: yes
21:15:48 <krit> heycam: we might cut up conversation
21:16:18 <heycam> s/cut/tighten/
21:16:32 <krit> shepazu: if we have a frequent time to call in, it is managable
21:16:36 <krit> krit: agree
21:17:09 <krit> heycam: I put up a doodle and we figure it out
21:17:17 <krit> topic: image-rendering property
21:17:35 <krit> Tav: we experimented with inscaling and outscaling
21:18:07 <krit> Tav: I looke in CSS and saw that it has a crisp edges proposal
21:18:19 <krit> Tav: wich seemed to be a good idea
21:18:46 <shepazu> q+
21:19:00 <krit> Tav: so if you scale, the pixels are preserved
21:19:12 <krit> Tav: not filtered and get blurry
21:19:39 <heycam> http://dev.w3.org/csswg/css-images/#image-rendering
21:19:47 <krit> Tav: in my email there is a lingk to the draft
21:20:00 <krit> tav reads the proposal
21:20:31 <krit> shepazu: my suggestion SVG should simply do as if the image would be in HTML
21:21:09 <krit> krit: image-rendering was implement in SVG already
21:21:14 <krit> krit: with the same purpose
21:21:29 <krit> Tav: well, you could choose for quality or speed
21:22:27 <krit> krit: I think this should move to CSS WG
21:22:53 <krit> krit: it also does what Tav wants
21:23:04 <krit> Tav: we should say what it means for SVG
21:23:12 <krit> krit: not really
21:23:43 <krit> heycam: ok so we should reference the CSS spec.
21:24:46 <krit> krit: I think CSS should override the SVG defintion and we do not reference CSS IMage as long as it is not in a further step
21:24:49 <ed> typically image-rendering='optimizeSpeed' in svg content means "please use nearest-neighbor", and 'optimizeQuality' means use something better than nearest-neighbor (typically bilinear)
21:25:15 <ed> not sure if content depends on it, but 'auto' is different
21:25:29 <krit> shepazu: we cold just drop it from SVG2 and let CSS keep it up
21:25:56 <krit> shepazu: if someone wants it, he can use SVG1.1 defintion
21:26:26 <krit> Tav: there should be a notification
21:26:49 <krit> krit: can we put this note in the appendix?
21:27:01 <krit> Tav: it would be one step more for people to get the necessary information
21:27:30 <krit> shepazu: what about a compromise where we have a detailed appendix and short notes in the spec referencing the Appendix
21:27:42 <krit> heycam: I thought about that as well about all referenced specs
21:27:51 <krit> Tav: I just want to have a short note
21:28:34 <krit> heycam: fine with me
21:28:44 <krit> ed: what about the degault value
21:28:49 <krit> krit: it is still auto
21:29:37 <krit> ed: sure but I want to be able to optimise speed
21:29:48 <krit> ed: auto means smoothing
21:29:59 <krit> krit: that is the default anyway
21:30:36 <ed> crisp-edges would probably be what I'd expect optimizeSpeed to be resolved as
21:30:47 <ed> or perhaps as 'pixelated'
21:30:54 <krit> krit: I think we should move discussion to www-style and argue there if there are concerns
21:32:02 <krit> shepazu: optimization may have very different effects even between implementations. I think this property does not influence existing content a lot
21:32:11 <krit> shepazu: I think we should let the CSS WG deal with it
21:33:12 <krit> heycam: it is late to bring it up
21:33:31 <krit> heycam: to inform authors about optimized speed
21:33:31 <heycam> s/late to bring/worth bringing/
21:33:55 <krit> krit: I am fine with leaving it now
21:34:24 <krit> heycam: we leave it and add a note that CSS WG is working on it. If CSS WG is quicker, we remove it and add a reference to it
21:34:59 <krit> action: tav to add a note to image-rendering property that CSS WG is dealing with a new version of it
21:34:59 <trackbot> Created ACTION-3480 - Add a note to image-rendering property that CSS WG is dealing with a new version of it [on Tavmjong Bah - due 2013-04-11].
21:35:06 <Tav> https://launchpadlibrarian.net/136181479/scaling_test.svg
21:35:21 <krit> Tav: ther is a nother issue
21:35:43 <krit> Tav: open the image i posted in the mail and change the zoom
21:35:50 <ed> s/ auto means smoothing/ auto means smoothing, which is undesirable in at least all 'optimizeSpeed' content I've made/
21:36:15 <krit> heycam: that is the bilienar filtering that you see
21:36:29 <krit> Tav: I think it is actually the color spacwe
21:36:36 <shepazu> Zakim, who's noisy?
21:36:46 <krit> Tav: one that you see is sRGB, the other is linear
21:36:47 <Zakim> shepazu, listening for 10 seconds I heard sound from the following: heycam (71%), nikos (43%), Tav (24%), krit (5%)
21:36:59 <shepazu> Zakim, mute nikos
21:37:00 <Zakim> nikos should now be muted
21:37:33 <krit> krit: isn't it an implementation issue
21:37:50 <krit> Tav: yes, but all three browsers do that because they use sRGB
21:38:17 <krit> Tav: And I don't think that this is the right thing to do
21:38:43 <krit> Tav: in the future when people use GPU it will be easy for themm to switch color spaces
21:39:38 <ed> the svg one is using a <pattern>, is it different if you use <image xlink:href="data:image/svg+xml..." />?
21:39:56 <krit> cabanier: it depends more on how you scale. I do not think that switching the color space is correct
21:40:14 <krit> shepazu: I don't think that is a SVG issue, but more SVG
21:40:22 <krit> s/more SVG/more CSS/
21:40:46 <krit> cabanier: I do not think that you change color space on scaling
21:41:02 <krit> cabanier: transforms and color space are different thing
21:41:31 <krit> Tav: if I zoom in the color should not change
21:41:46 <krit> krit: I think this is more an issue of antialiasing, not color space
21:42:15 <shepazu> (is this different for SVG vs HTML? if not, why are we talking about it in an SVG telcon, vs discussing it on www-style?)
21:43:39 <krit> Tav: there would definitely be a visible difference on changing color space on scaling and you can not know if you are scaling in a motion or not
21:44:04 <krit> s/Tav: there/krit: there/
21:44:33 <krit> cabanier: why specifying it in SVG if you think that is an issue in the implementation?
21:45:32 <krit> krit: we should move this to the mailing list and disucss it with the CSS WG
21:46:15 <krit> shepazu: I think we should not do our own color stuff, i think it should be in CSS
21:46:50 <krit> Tav: If SVG says it is something that we want to do, then we should drive it
21:47:00 <krit> shepazu: who is doing the color stuff in SVG
21:47:03 <krit> krit: Chris
21:47:15 <krit> cabanier: but Tab took over on CSS4 Color
21:48:03 <krit> action: Tav produce an exmaple, demonstrating how different color space interpolation effects image scaling
21:48:03 <trackbot> Created ACTION-3481 - Produce an exmaple, demonstrating how different color space interpolation effects image scaling [on Tavmjong Bah - due 2013-04-11].
21:48:14 <krit> Tav: I saw the same issue on filters
21:48:27 <krit> krit: makes sense, but depends on the input
21:49:05 <krit> Tav: are browsers interestef in color interpolation?
21:49:12 <krit> cabanier: yes it is in there
21:49:15 <krit> cabanier: CSS4 Color
21:49:21 <heycam> http://dev.w3.org/csswg/css-color/#color-management
21:49:28 <krit> Tav: that would solve some problems that I see with meshes
21:50:39 <Zakim> -ed
21:51:09 <krit> cabanier: this is a property that switches between DeviceRGB and sRGB
21:51:58 <krit> krit: yes, that is what we have in WebKit
21:52:20 <krit> krit: in SVG we have color-interpoaltion that switches between sRGB and linearRGB
21:52:32 <krit> heycam: I think color-interpolation should go to CSS4 Color
21:53:16 <krit> krit: there is just one problem: SVG is sRGB by default. Implemeentd is DeviceRGB
21:53:30 <krit> cabanier: don't think CSS changes
21:53:35 <krit> cabanier: that
21:53:56 <krit> krit: I think it does, because it has auto, which is DeviceRGB
21:54:02 <krit> cabanier: oh
21:55:27 <krit> krit: in reality no one implements sRGB but DeviceRGB (all browsers and tools)
21:57:13 <krit> heycam: I don' think it says anything about using sRGB by default on images
21:57:30 <krit> krit: color-interpolation is not limited to images but effects everything
21:58:25 <krit> heycam: you are aying CSS should call it color-interpolation?
21:58:45 <krit> krit: yes, but we would need to add auto and would need to say that auto means sRGB
21:59:00 <krit> krit: or we say the truth and use DeviceRGB instead
21:59:10 <krit> krit: as every implementation does anyway
22:00:51 <krit> action: krit to ask CSS WG to use color-interpolation instead (as defined in SVG) with the addotion of auto
22:00:51 <trackbot> Created ACTION-3482 - Ask CSS WG to use color-interpolation instead (as defined in SVG) with the addotion of auto [on Dirk Schulze - due 2013-04-11].
22:01:23 <krit> action: krit to figure out if we should use sRGB or DeviceRGB on SVG
22:01:23 <trackbot> Created ACTION-3483 - Figure out if we should use sRGB or DeviceRGB on SVG [on Dirk Schulze - due 2013-04-11].
22:02:00 <krit> topic: meeting with IDTF
22:02:04 <heycam> s/T/P/
22:02:21 <krit> s/IDTF/IDPF/
22:03:00 <krit> shepazu: I would not be able to go there
22:03:07 <leaverou> leaverou has joined #svg
22:03:26 <leaverou> leaverou has left #svg
22:03:27 <krit> shepazu: IDPF is happeing at media campus
22:03:35 <heycam> s/media/Keio Mita/
22:03:43 <krit> shepazu: 25min appart by train
22:04:00 <krit> shepazu: agenda is about internationalization issues
22:04:54 <Zakim> -Tav
22:04:59 <krit> shepazu: are any of you interested in this topic?
22:05:09 <richardschwerdtfeger> s/IDTF/IDPF
22:05:21 <krit> heycam: you said that they may have interest in SVG and want our opinion about that?
22:05:35 <Zakim> +Tav
22:05:44 <richardschwerdtfeger> :-)
22:06:13 <krit> shepazu: I think the focus is on electrical publishing
22:07:49 <krit> richardschwerdtfeger: It is really important in MathML
22:08:00 <krit> richardschwerdtfeger: I'd like to have a open format in documetns
22:08:11 <krit> richardschwerdtfeger: I would like to see them SVG2
22:08:21 <krit> richardschwerdtfeger: which is important in the future
22:08:32 <krit> richardschwerdtfeger: ARIA and other accesibility things
22:09:51 <krit> shepazu: I am not convinced if the timing is right
22:10:04 <krit> shepazu: and especially in the context of this meeting
22:10:19 <krit> shepazu: the focus on internationalizing
22:13:25 <krit> resolve: we meet from monday to wednesday
22:14:07 <krit> shepazu: I will talk with the organizers
22:15:12 <krit> shepazu: another option is to invite them to one of our sessions
22:15:22 <birtles> by the way, I started adding some details for the Tokyo F2F to http://www.w3.org/Graphics/SVG/WG/wiki/F2F/Tokyo_2013, more hotel suggestions etc. to come
22:15:39 <heycam> cool
22:15:49 <Zakim> -birtles
22:16:11 <krit> shepazu: why not invite some to a telcon
22:16:28 <krit> action: shepazu to invite IDPF people to a SVG telcon
22:16:28 <trackbot> Created ACTION-3484 - Invite IDPF people to a SVG telcon [on Doug Schepers - due 2013-04-11].
22:17:23 <krit> topic: CSS4 Color and merging SVG Color
22:17:49 <Zakim> -Doug_Schepers
22:18:13 <krit> krit: tab sugeested to pick up SVG color things to CSS4 color
22:20:05 <krit> krit: ICC color profiles have been in SVG1.1 already. Assuming that there are viewers with support for ICC, it is fine to have it in SVG2 for now. But LAB is new. For browsers it makes sense if it is part of CSS4 Color
22:20:19 <krit> heycam: I am more affraid on relying on future specs in SVG2
22:20:30 <krit> heycam: so new stuff can go to CSS4 Color
22:20:36 <krit> heycam: not sure about old studd
22:20:37 <krit> stuff
22:20:44 <richardschwerdtfeger> dropping
22:20:49 <Zakim> -Rich_Schwerdtfeger
22:21:04 <krit> heycam: they are in SVG2 now, because they were in SVG Color 1.2
22:21:16 <krit> heycam: and we decided to merge them again with SVG2
22:21:37 <krit> heycam: I want to hear ChrisL s opinion first
22:22:15 <krit> heycam: I was on removing everything which is in CSS3 Color
22:22:28 <krit> heycam: In the future it makes sense to have everything in CSS Color
22:22:51 <krit> heycam: Are you concerned they don't get implemented in browsers and will be removed anyway?
22:22:54 <krit> krit: yes
22:23:06 <krit> heycam: we can around that problem in CR
22:23:33 <heycam> we could have a new conformance class for "color managed implementation"
22:24:47 <krit> krit: I think we should collect data about active SVG viewer implementations
22:26:09 <krit> krit: I am saying that colors in general should be managed by CSS Color
22:26:24 <krit> heycam: I agree, but want Chris's input
22:30:29 <Zakim> -cabanier
22:30:32 <Zakim> -nikos
22:30:33 <Zakim> -Tav
22:30:35 <heycam> RRSAgent, make minutes
22:30:35 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2013/04/04-svg-minutes.html heycam
22:31:16 <Zakim> -heycam
22:32:11 <Zakim> -krit
22:32:12 <Zakim> GA_SVGWG(SVG1)5:00PM has ended
22:32:12 <Zakim> Attendees were heycam, Doug_Schepers, nikos, birtles, [IPcaller], ed, +33.9.53.77.aaaa, +33.9.53.77.aabb, +1.415.832.aacc, krit, Tav, Rich_Schwerdtfeger, cabanier
23:05:48 <birtles> birtles has joined #svg