15:34:40 <RRSAgent> RRSAgent has joined #i18n
15:34:40 <RRSAgent> logging to http://www.w3.org/2013/03/28-i18n-irc
15:34:50 <aphillip> trackbot, prepare teleconference
15:34:52 <trackbot> RRSAgent, make logs world
15:34:54 <trackbot> Zakim, this will be 4186
15:34:55 <Zakim> ok, trackbot; I see I18N_CoreWG()11:00AM scheduled to start 34 minutes ago
15:34:55 <trackbot> Meeting: Internationalization Working Group Teleconference
15:34:56 <trackbot> Date: 28 March 2013
15:35:19 <aphillip> Agenda: https://lists.w3.org/Archives/Member/member-i18n-core/2013Mar/0024.html
15:35:35 <aphillip> Chair: Addison Phillips
15:35:48 <aphillip> rrsagent, draft minutes
15:35:48 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2013/03/28-i18n-minutes.html aphillip
15:36:32 <aphillip> agenda+ I18N-ISSUE-246: computing storage limits in ITS
15:36:49 <aphillip> agenda+ Bidi Change Proposal
15:36:58 <aphillip> agenda+ Charmod-Norm
15:37:06 <aphillip> zakim, agenda?
15:37:06 <Zakim> I see 11 items remaining on the agenda:
15:37:07 <Zakim> 1. WTITMA [from aphillip]
15:37:07 <Zakim> 2. caseless matching in css3 fonts [from aphillip]
15:37:07 <Zakim> 3. css3-text-decoration skipping spaces [from aphillip]
15:37:07 <Zakim> 4. language ranges with multiple subtags [from aphillip]
15:37:07 <Zakim> 5. locale attribute in HTML [from aphillip]
15:37:08 <Zakim> 6. bidi change proposal [from aphillip]
15:37:08 <Zakim> 7. charmod-norm [from aphillip]
15:37:08 <Zakim> 8. ITS issues? [from aphillip]
15:37:08 <Zakim> 9. I18N-ISSUE-246: computing storage limits in ITS [from aphillip]
15:37:08 <Zakim> 10. Bidi Change Proposal [from aphillip]
15:37:08 <Zakim> 11. Charmod-Norm [from aphillip]
15:37:44 <aphillip> agenda- 1
15:37:51 <aphillip> agenda- 1
15:37:56 <aphillip> agenda- 2
15:38:00 <aphillip> agenda- 3
15:38:03 <aphillip> agenda- 4
15:38:07 <aphillip> agenda- 5
15:38:12 <aphillip> agenda- 6
15:38:16 <aphillip> agenda- 7
15:38:20 <aphillip> agenda- 8
15:38:22 <aphillip> agenda?
15:38:35 <aphillip> zakim, this will be I18N
15:38:35 <Zakim> "I18N" matches I18N_CoreWG()11:00AM, and I18N_MLW WG(LT)10:00AM, aphillip
15:38:51 <aphillip> zakim, this will be I18N_CoreWG
15:38:51 <Zakim> ok, aphillip; I see I18N_CoreWG()11:00AM scheduled to start 38 minutes ago
15:49:15 <aphillip> aphillip has joined #i18n
15:50:35 <aphillip> rrsagent, draft minutes
15:50:35 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2013/03/28-i18n-minutes.html aphillip
15:50:50 <aphillip> Regrets: Aharon
15:52:30 <Zakim> I18N_CoreWG()11:00AM has now started
15:52:35 <Zakim> +aphillip
15:52:37 <Zakim> +??P3
15:56:30 <Ning> Ning has joined #i18n
15:56:47 <Yves_> Yves_ has joined #i18n
15:56:58 <Yves_> present+ Yves
15:59:31 <r12a> zakim, dial richard
15:59:32 <Zakim> ok, r12a; the call is being made
15:59:32 <Zakim> +Richard
15:59:57 <aphillip> zakim, who is here?
15:59:57 <Zakim> On the phone I see fsasaki (muted), aphillip, Richard
15:59:58 <Zakim> On IRC I see Yves_, Ning, aphillip, RRSAgent, fsasaki, r12a, Zakim, trackbot
16:02:00 <Norbert> Norbert has joined #i18n
16:02:23 <Zakim> + +1.303.945.aaaa
16:02:35 <r12a> zakim, who's here ?
16:02:35 <Zakim> On the phone I see fsasaki, aphillip, Richard, +1.303.945.aaaa
16:02:36 <Zakim> On IRC I see Norbert, Yves_, Ning, aphillip, RRSAgent, fsasaki, r12a, Zakim, trackbot
16:02:44 <Zakim> +Norbert
16:04:20 <aphillip> Scribe: Addison Phillips
16:04:24 <aphillip> ScribeNick: aphillip
16:04:37 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2013/03/28-i18n-minutes.html aphillip
16:04:43 <aphillip> Topic: Agenda
16:04:45 <aphillip> agenda?
16:05:01 <aphillip> Topic: Action Items
16:05:59 <aphillip> ACTION-170: richard: ported document to HTML5
16:05:59 <trackbot> Notes added to ACTION-170 Coordinate with richard regarding KLReq.
16:06:18 <aphillip> ... improved English, sent comments off, had responses
16:06:25 <Ning_> Ning_ has joined #i18n
16:06:27 <aphillip> ... waiting for all authors to join IG before we process
16:06:33 <aphillip> s/process/proceed/
16:06:52 <aphillip> ... encouraging folks to join quickly so that next week we can publish FPWD for wide review
16:06:59 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2013/03/28-i18n-minutes.html aphillip
16:07:17 <Ning_> Ning_ has left #i18n
16:07:29 <aphillip> close ACTION-194
16:07:29 <trackbot> Closed ACTION-194 Poll for heartburn for keeping call at 1600Z.
16:08:27 <aphillip> ACTION-196: due end of April
16:08:27 <trackbot> Notes added to ACTION-196 Request fequest feedback on ruby use cases with an eye towards publishing updated version in two weeks.
16:09:10 <aphillip> Topic: Info Share
16:09:40 <r12a> http://www.w3.org/International/wiki/Html-bidi-isolation-new
16:09:57 <aphillip> richard: largely rewritten this
16:10:03 <aphillip> ... have comments from Aharon
16:10:09 <aphillip> ... need to integrate those still
16:10:13 <aphillip> ... made lots of progress
16:10:29 <aphillip> addison: others should comment?
16:10:38 <aphillip> richard: yes, but there will be changes
16:11:04 <aphillip> agenda?
16:11:23 <aphillip> zakim, take up agendum 9
16:11:23 <Zakim> agendum 9. "I18N-ISSUE-246: computing storage limits in ITS" taken up [from aphillip]
16:11:38 <aphillip> felix: two issues here
16:11:54 <aphillip> ... 246 and 247
16:11:57 <fsasaki> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-international/2013JanMar/0368.html
16:12:00 <aphillip> ... 247 is line break type
16:12:09 <aphillip> ... addison's email in the thread above
16:12:52 <fsasaki> scribe: fsasaki
16:13:09 <fsasaki> addison: didn't seem to make sense to me to say that there is a default encoding
16:13:09 <r12a> zakim, who's here?
16:13:09 <Zakim> On the phone I see fsasaki (muted), aphillip, Richard, Yves, Norbert
16:13:11 <Zakim> On IRC I see Norbert, Yves_, aphillip, RRSAgent, fsasaki, r12a, Zakim, trackbot
16:13:34 <fsasaki> .. if the encoding attribute is not here, you can say many things about what the count is in - but it is not actually said in the spec
16:13:45 <fsasaki> .. the counting thing doesn't make sense, not very well described
16:13:54 <fsasaki> .. just worked on a unicode FAQ about counting
16:14:00 <fsasaki> .. understand the original goal
16:14:24 <fsasaki> .. but in many use cases you cannot count. e.g. in utf-16 you cannot have odd number byte count
16:14:35 <fsasaki> .. so make the code unit count in the encoding
16:14:52 <fsasaki> .. or in other cases you count graphemes or other items
16:15:03 <fsasaki> .. I have seen various cases like that
16:15:17 <fsasaki> .. graphemes are hard because there is some impresise things
16:15:20 <Najib-ma> Najib-ma has joined #i18n
16:15:31 <fsasaki> .. but code units are reasonable to count
16:15:37 <fsasaki> .. esp. with utf-8
16:16:27 <fsasaki> norbert: you say the xxx is implementation defined
16:16:39 <fsasaki> addison: ITS does not define what the yyy means
16:16:58 <fsasaki> norbert: addison's statement is a correct summary of the state of affairs
16:17:05 <fsasaki> .. question is it is useful in the spec
16:17:18 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2013/03/28-i18n-minutes.html aphillip
16:17:29 <fsasaki> felix: would the re-write be useful?
16:17:40 <fsasaki> yves: originaal intent was just to mesure the storage
16:17:47 <fsasaki> .. e.g. display was not a use case here
16:17:57 <fsasaki> .. agree that reference to byte is probably not right
16:18:23 <fsasaki> .. would be fine to use a kind of unit that would be not byte
16:18:34 <fsasaki> .. beyond that not sure what the problem is in additoin
16:18:48 <fsasaki> addision: norbert was trying to say what we require in specs
16:18:54 <fsasaki> .. would be fine if we did that
16:18:59 <r12a> zakim, who's noisy?
16:19:05 <fsasaki> .. but ITS gave reasons why you don't do that
16:19:09 <Zakim> r12a, listening for 10 seconds I heard sound from the following: fsasaki (14%), aphillip (50%)
16:19:25 <fsasaki> .. if you can't define taht, you should spell out it is implementation defined
16:19:38 <fsasaki> .. you cannot say that utf-8 is the default
16:19:54 <fsasaki> yves: in the spec we say the utf-8 encoding attribute is utf-8
16:20:04 <fsasaki> .. the implementation using that is not the ITS processor
16:20:17 <fsasaki> .. the implementations may or may not support utf-8
16:20:26 <fsasaki> .. I understand we want to encourage utf-8
16:20:42 <fsasaki> .. I thikn stefan wanted to convey a "should" in his not to encourage thtat
16:20:56 <fsasaki> .. but the ITS processor is not processing that
16:21:04 <fsasaki> .. but at the same time we want to have a default value
16:21:11 <fsasaki> .. it is just a piece of information
16:21:24 <fsasaki> addision: if the attribute is ommitted it is utf-8?
16:21:31 <fsasaki> yves: the string, not the encoding
16:22:58 <fsasaki> felix trying to explain why "semantics" is not an intend of ITS here and in many places
16:23:24 <fsasaki> addison: understand, but the ITS processor has values and gives them to a translation system
16:23:44 <fsasaki> .. you want to define the semantics of the values enough so that you have meaning
16:23:56 <fsasaki> .. that is enough for non unicode, multi byte encodings
16:24:11 <fsasaki> .. it is more problemantic if I need to convey other types of limits
16:24:36 <fsasaki> .. if the link between character encoding and xxx is not clear defined it is a problem
16:24:50 <fsasaki> yves: agree that reference to bytes is an issue, code units would be ok
16:25:17 <fsasaki> addison: you can use utf-16 or utf-32 to enforce that
16:25:23 <aphillip> A storageEncoding attribute. It contains the name of the character encoding form used to calculate the number of code units of the selected text (cf. CharMod). The name MUST be one of the names or aliases listed in the IANA Character Sets registry [IANA Character Sets]. If omitted, the character encoding is undefined and the storageSize attribute's interpretation is implementation defined. Interpretation of the storageEncoding attribute is implementation [CUT]
16:25:24 <fsasaki> scribe missed norbert's comment
16:25:36 <fsasaki> (norbert, feel free to add)
16:25:47 <fsasaki> addison: above was my suggesstion
16:26:12 <fsasaki> .. say that the whole thing is implementation defined
16:26:18 <fsasaki> yves: the values are defeind by ITS
16:26:28 <fsasaki> .. we communicate the values to the tool
16:26:33 <fsasaki> .. we need a default value
16:26:50 <fsasaki> addision: the ITS process does jsut pass the information?
16:26:53 <fsasaki> yves: right
16:27:08 <fsasaki> addision: is it better to have an empty value or utf-8?
16:27:15 <fsasaki> yves: having utf-8 is better
16:27:27 <fsasaki> .. same for other ITS items
16:27:50 <aphillip> A storageSize attribute. It contains the maximum number of units the text of the selected node is allowed in storage. Units are generally code units in a given character encoding. Interpretation is implementation defined.
16:27:56 <fsasaki> yves: I can try to rephrase the note that stephan was putting out, taking in account the change for the byte
16:28:46 <fsasaki> felix: sounds good, let's see where we are next week
16:28:51 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2013/03/28-i18n-minutes.html fsasaki
16:29:08 <aphillip> ACTION: yves: coordinate with stephen et al in ITS to phrase the text
16:29:08 <trackbot> Error finding 'yves'. You can review and register nicknames at <http://www.w3.org/International/track/users>.
16:29:36 <fsasaki> topic: http://www.w3.org/International/track/issues/247
16:29:42 <aphillip> felix: the other issue is 247
16:29:44 <aphillip> ... line-break type
16:29:58 <aphillip> ... not resolved yet, but not aware of current state
16:30:22 <fsasaki> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-international/2013JanMar/0301.html
16:30:43 <aphillip> addison: norbert, your take?
16:30:56 <aphillip> norbert: catching up... not used to this type of spec
16:31:16 <aphillip> yves: application checks the length might run into linebreak
16:31:26 <aphillip> ... probably normalized as \n
16:31:39 <aphillip> ... but original application might use, e.g. \r\n
16:31:43 <aphillip> ... so count could be different
16:32:36 <aphillip> norbert: so you could write into spec that it could be \n, \r, \r\n, etc.
16:32:42 <aphillip> ... what about <br>?
16:32:51 <aphillip> yves: there is a list of values in the spec
16:33:11 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2013/03/28-i18n-minutes.html aphillip
16:33:12 <Yves_> http://www.w3.org/TR/2012/WD-its20-20121206/#storagesize
16:33:25 <aphillip> yves: here's the link to that poart of the spec
16:33:51 <fsasaki> "The possible values are: cr for CARRIAGE RETURN (U+000D), lf for LINE FEED (U+000A), crlf for CARRIAGE RETURN (U+000D) followed by LINE FEED (U+000A), or nel for NEXT LINE (U+0085). The default value is lf."
16:33:53 <aphillip> s/poart/part/
16:34:03 <aphillip> yves: can work on writing update of the note
16:35:00 <aphillip> felix: can you (yves) work on updating and coordinating, and if we need to, have another shared call next week?
16:35:04 <aphillip> (general agreement)
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16:35:26 <aphillip> felix: one more minute on ITS issues?
16:35:26 <fsasaki> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-international/2013JanMar/0388.html
16:35:38 <aphillip> felix: above list on winter@
16:35:43 <aphillip> ... this is about directionality
16:35:50 <aphillip> ... tried to implement your proposals
16:35:55 <aphillip> ... let me know what you think
16:36:43 <aphillip> ACTION: addison: remind folks to review ITS item in the winter 388 email for next time (4 April)
16:36:43 <trackbot> Created ACTION-200 - Remind folks to review ITS item in the winter 388 email for next time (4 April) [on Addison Phillips - due 2013-04-04].
16:37:03 <aphillip> felix: related to three comments about direction
16:37:10 <fsasaki> scribe: fsasaki
16:37:14 <aphillip> agenda?
16:37:28 <aphillip> richard: which version of ITS to look at?
16:37:31 <fsasaki> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-international/2013JanMar/0389.html
16:37:36 <aphillip> ... link from yves above doesn't have it
16:37:39 <fsasaki> http://www.w3.org/International/multilingualweb/lt/drafts/its20/its20.html#directionality
16:37:41 <aphillip> ... what's the undated link
16:37:47 <aphillip> felix: see above
16:37:55 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2013/03/28-i18n-minutes.html aphillip
16:38:19 <aphillip> agenda?
16:38:53 <fsasaki> topic: bidi
16:39:03 <fsasaki> addison: no discussion this week,
16:39:11 <fsasaki> topic: charmod-norm
16:39:25 <fsasaki> addison: anything to discuss this week?
16:39:37 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2013/03/28-i18n-minutes.html fsasaki
16:40:25 <aphillip> Topic: AOB?
16:40:34 <fsasaki> richard: comment for felix
16:40:35 <aphillip> richard: one more comment for felix
16:40:43 <fsasaki> .. "quote" in example 48
16:40:52 <fsasaki> .. needs change in example 47 and 45 as well
16:40:55 <fsasaki> felix: thanks, will do
16:41:09 <fsasaki> action: felix to change example 47 and 45 in ITS spec
16:41:10 <trackbot> Created ACTION-201 - Change example 47 and 45 in ITS spec [on Felix Sasaki - due 2013-04-04].
16:41:19 <aphillip> REMINDER: next week at 1500 UTC
16:42:01 <Zakim> -Yves
16:42:02 <Zakim> -aphillip
16:42:04 <Zakim> -Norbert
16:42:05 <Zakim> -fsasaki
16:42:13 <r12a> zakim, drop richard
16:42:13 <Zakim> Richard is being disconnected
16:42:15 <Zakim> I18N_CoreWG()11:00AM has ended
16:42:15 <Zakim> Attendees were aphillip, fsasaki, Richard, +1.303.945.aaaa, Norbert, Yves
16:42:18 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2013/03/28-i18n-minutes.html fsasaki
16:43:50 <Najib-ma> Najib-ma has left #i18n
16:49:43 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2013/03/28-i18n-minutes.html aphillip
16:49:50 <aphillip> zakim, bye
16:49:50 <Zakim> Zakim has left #i18n
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