IRC log of svg on 2013-03-21

Timestamps are in UTC.

20:59:27 [RRSAgent]
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logging to
20:59:29 [trackbot]
RRSAgent, make logs public
20:59:29 [Zakim]
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Zakim, this will be GA_SVGWG
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ok, trackbot, I see GA_SVGWG(SVG1)5:00PM already started
20:59:32 [trackbot]
Meeting: SVG Working Group Teleconference
20:59:32 [trackbot]
Date: 21 March 2013
20:59:34 [ChrisL]
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rrsagent, here
20:59:57 [RRSAgent]
21:00:09 [Zakim]
21:00:22 [ed]
Zakim, [IP is me
21:00:22 [Zakim]
+ed; got it
21:01:11 [ed]
21:01:31 [Zakim]
+ +61.2.980.5.aabb
21:01:37 [nikos]
Zakim, +61.2 is me
21:01:37 [Zakim]
+nikos; got it
21:01:46 [Zakim]
21:02:20 [Zakim]
21:02:46 [ChrisL]
yay, a new telcon time that isn't 11pm
21:03:02 [glenn]
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21:04:03 [nikos]
scribenick: nikos
21:04:18 [nikos]
Topic: SVG 2 status
21:04:34 [ChrisL]
status - SVG2 full of broken links
21:04:36 [ed]
21:04:40 [nikos]
ed: There are some problems with broken links
21:05:00 [nikos]
ed: I took a look at filters, it seems we are referencing the ED of the compositing spec
21:05:44 [nikos]
ed: Some of the specs we are referencing are quite old. Will we be publishing new versions of them any time soon?
21:06:04 [nikos]
krit: for Filter Effects I'm waiting on feedback on the security model
21:06:53 [nikos]
... For compositing we have problems with stacking contexts to resolve
21:07:24 [nikos]
ChrisL: I'd like to see new versions for specs that have changed. It's ok to point to the old version if there haven't been any changes
21:07:43 [nikos]
krit: I'd like to wait 2-3 weeks for Filter Effects. I'd like feedback from Robert O'Callaghan
21:08:09 [nikos]
nikos: We should check with Rik for Compositing and Blending
21:08:28 [nikos]
ed: For the masking links, I think we need to go through definitions.xml and remove things that are moved to the new spec
21:08:45 [nikos]
... and setup something like definitions-filters.xml for anything filter related
21:08:54 [nikos]
... we should do likewise for compositing and masks
21:09:21 [nikos]
krit: Do you mean we port these files from the other specs to SVG 2?
21:09:42 [nikos]
ChrisL: The xml just defines the links
21:10:04 [nikos]
ed: We can specify the base URL easily in the definition
21:10:12 [ChrisL]
so one edit updates all the links that are generated
21:10:29 [ed]
s/definition/publish.xml file definition/
21:11:19 [nikos]
krit: I've updated the file in the filter effects repository, How do I bring that across to SVG 2?
21:12:16 [nikos]
ed: we need to make sure the definitions file is correct for the last published working draft, as links will change
21:12:30 [nikos]
... we should point to a particular WD
21:13:38 [nikos]
action: Erik to fix the definition XML file for filter effects in SVG 2. Point to a specific published version.
21:13:38 [trackbot]
Created ACTION-3476 - Fix the definition XML file for filter effects in SVG 2. Point to a specific published version. [on Erik Dahlström - due 2013-03-28].
21:13:55 [nikos]
action: Dirk to fix the definition XML file for masking in SVG 2. Point to a specific published version.
21:13:55 [trackbot]
Created ACTION-3477 - Fix the definition XML file for masking in SVG 2. Point to a specific published version. [on Dirk Schulze - due 2013-03-28].
21:14:15 [nikos]
action: Nikos to fix the definition XML file for compositing and blending in SVG 2. Point to a specific published version.
21:14:15 [trackbot]
Created ACTION-3478 - Fix the definition XML file for compositing and blending in SVG 2. Point to a specific published version. [on Nikos Andronikos - due 2013-03-28].
21:14:30 [glenn]
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21:15:46 [nikos]
ed: So Chris, you'll do the publication when everything is fixed?
21:15:56 [nikos]
ChrisL: yes, I may need to get someone else to build if my system isn't ready
21:16:33 [glenn_]
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21:17:01 [nikos]
Topic: Referencing the HTML spec
21:17:06 [richardschwerdtfeger]
21:17:21 [nikos]
richardschwerdtfeger: We started looking at this list and got up to item 5
21:17:36 [nikos]
... looking at focus navigation in SVG. I'm trying to follow the same navigation sequencing that is in HTML 5
21:17:45 [nikos]
... they refer to how to parse the browsing context
21:18:00 [nikos]
... in terms of the definition of the browsing context. Does anyone have reservations on me referencing the HTML 5 spec ?
21:18:02 [richardschwerdtfeger]
21:18:13 [nikos]
krit: don't you already reference HTML 5?
21:18:18 [nikos]
richardschwerdtfeger: not for browsing context
21:18:33 [richardschwerdtfeger]
21:19:00 [nikos]
richardschwerdtfeger: so for consistency, I just refer to that definition
21:19:18 [nikos]
krit: do we define a window proxy object in SVG?
21:19:23 [nikos]
richardschwerdtfeger: not sure, I don't think so
21:19:32 [nikos]
... we probably will have to
21:19:37 [nikos]
krit: each browsing context requires one
21:20:05 [nikos]
richardschwerdtfeger: do we have a window object in SVG?
21:20:06 [nikos]
krit: yes
21:20:17 [nikos]
richardschwerdtfeger: might not be an issue then
21:20:27 [nikos]
... that makes sense
21:20:42 [nikos]
krit: is window defined in HTML?
21:20:45 [nikos]
richardschwerdtfeger: yes
21:20:51 [richardschwerdtfeger]
21:20:51 [nikos]
krit: SVG has a window object too?
21:20:55 [nikos]
ed: yes
21:21:08 [nikos]
richardschwerdtfeger: I don't know that we have all the same methods
21:21:17 [nikos]
krit: we don't have scrolling
21:21:42 [ed]
21:21:42 [nikos]
krit: I think it's fine
21:21:59 [nikos]
ed: I'm not sure that SVG 1.1 has a window definition but SVG 1.2 does
21:22:25 [nikos]
ChrisL: SVG 1.2 tiny was the first W3C to define a window object, but it's probably quite old and HTML5's is more up to date
21:22:39 [nikos]
richardschwerdtfeger: moving on to 6 then
21:22:56 [nikos]
... we need focus and hasFocus from HTMLElement
21:23:06 [nikos]
... should we request HTML move them up to the Element object?
21:23:12 [nikos]
... what do you guys prefer we do here?
21:23:21 [nikos]
krit: might be easier to just put it on SVGElement as well
21:23:50 [nikos]
richardschwerdtfeger: Number 7
21:24:02 [nikos]
... tabIndex is a global attribute in HTML so can apply to any element e.g. the title element
21:24:35 [ChrisL]
title {display: block; position: fixed }
21:25:20 [nikos]
ChrisL: it's easy in HTML to say that things in head don't get rendered
21:25:31 [nikos]
... but we have a bunch of stuff that doesn't render by itself e.g. gradients
21:26:10 [nikos]
richardschwerdtfeger: my recommendation is that we apply it to all elements but we stipulate that an element is focusable if the UAs default behaviour is to allow it focusable or it has tabindex
21:26:43 [nikos]
... should we list the elements that don't apply?
21:26:58 [nikos]
krit: what about references via use?
21:27:07 [nikos]
ed: could be tricky, do you get one per use or one per definition?
21:27:17 [nikos]
ChrisL: it's assuming one element produces one rendering and that's not the case here
21:27:25 [nikos]
... we've covered the case with zero renderings, but not multiple
21:27:31 [nikos]
... it's the instances that can be focused
21:27:46 [nikos]
richardschwerdtfeger: so we need to modify the definition?
21:27:49 [nikos]
ChrisL: I think so
21:28:18 [nikos]
... I would need to think about it and take a look at what you have already. Can we do it via email?
21:28:28 [nikos]
... it probably needs to be made to apply to HTML as well
21:28:40 [nikos]
richardschwerdtfeger: so the general definition is ok, but we need to deal with multiple instances
21:28:44 [nikos]
richardschwerdtfeger: Number 8
21:29:21 [nikos]
... part of what is needed for sequential flow navigation is to deal with browsing contexts
21:29:49 [nikos]
richardschwerdtfeger: it doesn't sound like people disagree that we would refer to the definitions?
21:30:05 [nikos]
s/people disagree/people don't disagree
21:30:21 [nikos]
... I'm trying not to redefine things if possible
21:30:22 [krit]
zakim, who is on the phone?
21:30:22 [Zakim]
On the phone I see +1.425.373.aaaa, Krit, ed, nikos, Rich_Schwerdtfeger, ChrisL
21:30:52 [nikos]
ed: Haven't heard any disagreement so I think it's fine
21:31:03 [nikos]
richardschwerdtfeger: we have some inconsistencies in naming like blur and focus out
21:31:25 [nikos]
... This is number 9
21:31:39 [nikos]
... do people have thoughts on mapping between the two?
21:31:47 [nikos]
... browsers handle it but I'd like to hear your thoughts
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21:32:03 [nikos]
ChrisL: When it was first proposed it was called blur and then it changed and then changed back
21:32:14 [nikos]
... I vaguely remember firing multiple events, but that's hacky
21:33:21 [nikos]
... how do the HTML browsers handle it? are they consistent?
21:33:21 [nikos]
richardschwerdtfeger: multiple events I think
21:33:21 [nikos]
ed: yes that's correct
21:33:21 [nikos]
... since SVG 1.1 didn't have blur and focus I don't think the browsers have them in an SVG context
21:33:21 [nikos]
krit: my experience is that inline SVG does
21:33:35 [nikos]
richardschwerdtfeger: for backward compatibility we will need focusout
21:33:49 [nikos]
... do we say you only register one handler?
21:33:54 [nikos]
... or do we say blur and focusout are equivalent?
21:34:00 [nikos]
... or do we tell browsers to generate both events?
21:34:23 [nikos]
ed: the question is how backward compatibility it would need to be as I don't think browsers implement this in SVG
21:34:28 [nikos]
... there may not be much content using it
21:34:50 [nikos]
richardschwerdtfeger: the only SVG element that it might apply to currently is anchor?
21:34:59 [nikos]
ed: animation and editable text in Tiny 1.2 as well
21:35:19 [nikos]
s/only SVG element /only SVG 1.1 element
21:35:46 [nikos]
richardschwerdtfeger: so it sounds like we will have a backward compatibility issue if we don't have both events
21:35:58 [nikos]
ed: I don't think it would be a big deal but it might make sense to investigate
21:36:04 [nikos]
... there is probably some content, but not much
21:37:06 [nikos]
richardschwerdtfeger: we will use the HTML names vs the exiting SVG names. So will use blur rather than focusout in the SVG 2 spec
21:37:14 [nikos]
ed: might be safer to deprecate
21:37:37 [nikos]
richardschwerdtfeger: ok we will deprecate the old names and adopt the HTML 5 naming conventions
21:37:42 [nikos]
... Number 10
21:38:20 [nikos]
... do we change the document or do we do something specific in SVG?
21:38:46 [nikos]
... do we want our own version of document or have the HTML 5 document object change?
21:39:06 [krit1]
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21:39:09 [nikos]
ed: there are only a few things we have on the SVG document that are in conflict with the HTML 5 document
21:39:14 [nikos]
... I think the HTML 5 spec documents them
21:39:35 [nikos]
... I think for the most part, they are more or less the same. SVG document is a subset
21:39:44 [nikos]
... the only thing the SVG document adds is the root element
21:39:59 [nikos]
richardschwerdtfeger: the HTML one has a lot of stuff we wouldn't implement
21:40:06 [nikos]
ed: do you want to import from the HTML element?
21:40:15 [ed]
21:40:51 [nikos]
richardschwerdtfeger: we need active element, we asked Anna if he would put it in DOM 4 (we reference DOM 4). He said no, he'd rather we adopt the HTML 5 document interface
21:41:01 [richardschwerdtfeger]
21:41:19 [nikos]
... last time we discussed it, there was some reluctance to do that
21:41:45 [nikos]
... this carries over into the next agenda item
21:42:27 [nikos]
ed: Dirk you thing it should be on the document interface?
21:42:32 [nikos]
krit1: it feels more natural
21:42:43 [nikos]
... we inherit from HTML document in webkit
21:43:04 [nikos]
ed: I don't have a strong opinion where it goes as long as it's there
21:43:22 [nikos]
richardschwerdtfeger: if we have the two together we'd use the HTML document, if you have standalone SVG what do you do?
21:43:27 [nikos]
... not support some functions? or have a subset?
21:43:39 [nikos]
... Anna's argument was that script developers want access to the entire set of APIs
21:43:51 [nikos]
... but in a standalone environment I'm not sure what to do with that
21:44:05 [nikos]
... Dirk you wanted to preserve the XML document object?
21:44:11 [nikos]
krit1: yes
21:44:44 [nikos]
... I have a strong opinion on that, I'm not sure Mozilla would let SVG document inherit from HTML document
21:45:08 [nikos]
... they want it on the DOM as well
21:45:43 [nikos]
richardschwerdtfeger: I will ask Boris
21:45:56 [nikos]
... we can discuss next week if needed
21:46:00 [Zakim]
21:46:17 [nikos]
Topic: SVG font-face-src required in the schema but optional in the spec
21:46:20 [ed]
21:46:33 [nikos]
ed: I was wondering what we want to do with this
21:46:39 [nikos]
... Chris replied and said the DTD is incorrect
21:46:41 [nikos]
... I would agree
21:46:46 [Zakim]
21:47:06 [nikos]
ChrisL: I'll take an action to do the errata
21:47:10 [nikos]
... and tell IPDF
21:47:40 [nikos]
action: Chris to write errata for ‘font-face-src’
21:47:40 [trackbot]
Created ACTION-3479 - Write errata for ‘font-face-src’ [on Chris Lilley - due 2013-03-28].
21:47:47 [richardschwerdtfeger]
have to drop
21:47:55 [Zakim]
21:48:22 [nikos]
Topic: Matrix specification editorship
21:48:35 [nikos]
krit1: Could Rik become co-editor of this?
21:48:57 [krit1]
s/Rik/Rik and I/
21:49:21 [nikos]
ed: no objections? That's fine then
21:54:10 [Zakim]
21:54:11 [Zakim]
21:54:12 [Zakim]
- +1.425.373.aaaa
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21:54:13 [Zakim]
21:54:15 [Zakim]
GA_SVGWG(SVG1)5:00PM has ended
21:54:15 [Zakim]
Attendees were +1.425.373.aaaa, Krit, [IPcaller], ed, +61.2.980.5.aabb, nikos, Rich_Schwerdtfeger, ChrisL
21:54:35 [nikos]
RRSAgent, make minutes
21:54:35 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate nikos
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