IRC log of i18n on 2013-03-21

Timestamps are in UTC.

15:27:26 [RRSAgent]
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15:27:26 [RRSAgent]
logging to
15:27:29 [Zakim]
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15:27:34 [aphillip]
trackbot, prepare teleconference
15:27:36 [trackbot]
RRSAgent, make logs world
15:27:38 [trackbot]
Zakim, this will be 4186
15:27:38 [Zakim]
ok, trackbot; I see I18N_CoreWG()11:00AM scheduled to start 27 minutes ago
15:27:39 [trackbot]
Meeting: Internationalization Working Group Teleconference
15:27:39 [trackbot]
Date: 21 March 2013
15:28:35 [aphillip]
15:28:49 [aphillip]
Chair: Addison Phillips
15:29:14 [aphillip]
agenda+ WTITMA
15:29:32 [aphillip]
agenda+ caseless matching in css3 fonts
15:29:51 [aphillip]
agenda+ css3-text-decoration skipping spaces
15:30:03 [aphillip]
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15:30:10 [aphillip]
15:30:32 [aphillip]
agenda+ language ranges with multiple subtags
15:30:41 [aphillip]
agenda+ locale attribute in HTML
15:30:52 [aphillip]
agenda+ bidi change proposal
15:31:03 [aphillip]
agenda+ charmod-norm
15:31:07 [aphillip]
agenda+ ITS issues?
15:38:39 [aphillip]
15:57:21 [aharon]
aharon has joined #i18n
15:58:11 [matial]
matial has joined #i18n
15:59:18 [Zakim]
I18N_CoreWG()11:00AM has now started
15:59:26 [Zakim]
+ +972.5.424.5aaaa
15:59:52 [Zakim]
15:59:58 [Zakim]
16:00:05 [matial]
zakim, ??p1 is me
16:00:05 [Zakim]
+matial; got it
16:00:16 [aphillip]
zakim, 972.5 is aharon
16:00:16 [Zakim]
sorry, aphillip, I do not recognize a party named '972.5'
16:00:25 [aphillip]
zakim, +972 is aharon
16:00:25 [Zakim]
+aharon; got it
16:00:25 [aharon]
zakim, mute me
16:00:26 [Zakim]
aharon should now be muted
16:00:39 [aphillip]
zakim, who is here?
16:00:39 [Zakim]
On the phone I see aharon (muted), matial (muted), aphillip
16:00:40 [JcK]
JcK has joined #i18n
16:00:41 [Zakim]
On IRC I see matial, aharon, aphillip, Zakim, RRSAgent, r12a, fsasaki, fantasai, trackbot
16:00:43 [aphillip]
rrsagent, draft minutes
16:00:43 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate aphillip
16:00:56 [Norbert]
Norbert has joined #i18n
16:00:57 [aphillip]
rrsagent, set logs world
16:01:27 [aphillip]
zakim, who is here?
16:01:27 [Zakim]
On the phone I see aharon (muted), matial (muted), aphillip
16:01:28 [Zakim]
On IRC I see Norbert, JcK, matial, aharon, aphillip, Zakim, RRSAgent, r12a, fsasaki, fantasai, trackbot
16:02:09 [Zakim]
+ +1.617.245.aabb
16:02:11 [r12a]
zakim, dial richard
16:02:11 [Zakim]
ok, r12a; the call is being made
16:02:13 [Zakim]
16:02:27 [Zakim]
16:02:34 [Zakim]
16:02:35 [r12a]
zakim, who's here ?
16:02:35 [Zakim]
On the phone I see aharon (muted), matial (muted), aphillip, +1.617.245.aabb, Richard, Norbert, ??P16
16:02:37 [Zakim]
On IRC I see Norbert, JcK, matial, aharon, aphillip, Zakim, RRSAgent, r12a, fsasaki, fantasai, trackbot
16:02:38 [aphillip]
zakim, +1.617 is JcK
16:02:38 [Zakim]
+JcK; got it
16:04:07 [matial]
not reslly up to thre vchalllnge
16:04:09 [aharon]
zakim, unmute me
16:04:09 [Zakim]
aharon should no longer be muted
16:04:58 [aphillip]
Scribe: aharon
16:05:07 [aphillip]
ScribeNick: aharon
16:05:15 [aphillip]
aharon: how do I do this?
16:05:20 [aphillip]
... and this is another line
16:05:44 [aphillip]
Topic: Agenda
16:07:10 [aphillip]
Topic: Action Items
16:07:21 [aharon]
aphillip: action items
16:07:44 [aharon]
aphillip: did not get a lot of action items done
16:08:03 [r12a]
16:08:09 [aharon]
aharon: did not make any progress on bidi html5 improvements note
16:08:32 [aharon]
norbet: action 149 in about 3 weeks
16:08:41 [Zakim]
16:08:57 [aharon]
ahphillip: action 150 becoming pressing, but have not had chance
16:08:58 [Norbert]
16:09:25 [aharon]
aphillip: no progress on action 170
16:09:58 [aharon]
richard: document is pretty much ready for review
16:10:12 [aharon]
aphillip: no progress on 174
16:10:27 [aharon]
aphillip: no progress on 183
16:10:47 [aharon]
aphillip: will talk about 194
16:11:03 [aphillip]
close ACTION-195
16:11:04 [trackbot]
Closed ACTION-195 Send Richard notes about IE behaviour wrt direction.
16:11:07 [aharon]
aharon: sent notes on IE for action 195 today
16:11:48 [aharon]
richard: no chance to get to action 196
16:11:57 [aphillip]
Topic: Info Share
16:12:55 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate aphillip
16:12:58 [aharon]
richard: mlw workshop went well
16:13:27 [fsasaki]
kudos to r12a for *his work! not only in the previous workshops but also in rome
16:13:28 [aharon]
richard: breakout to discuss personal names, mark davis was there...
16:13:33 [fsasaki]
16:13:42 [aharon]
how to handle personal names, ontologies
16:16:47 [aphillip]
16:16:50 [aharon]
aphillip: unicode conference call for papers is now
16:17:05 [aphillip]
zakim, take up agendum 1
16:17:05 [Zakim]
agendum 1. "WTITMA" taken up [from aphillip]
16:17:25 [aharon]
aphillip: is this (UTC 1600) a good time?
16:17:37 [aharon]
richard: until when?
16:17:45 [aharon]
aphillip: indefinitely
16:18:53 [aharon]
matial: not good for me after summer time comes in
16:18:53 [aphillip]
mati: -1, prefer same wall time rather than same utc time
16:19:19 [aphillip]
richard: 1500 utc
16:19:26 [aharon]
richard: prefer same wall time
16:19:33 [fsasaki]
16:19:54 [fsasaki]
actually, both fine by me
16:20:18 [aharon]
aphillip: resolved to move to 1500
16:20:50 [aphillip]
action: addison: move meeting to 1500 utc following change to summer time
16:20:50 [trackbot]
Created ACTION-197 - Move meeting to 1500 utc following change to summer time [on Addison Phillips - due 2013-03-28].
16:21:25 [aphillip]
... for first meeting in april
16:21:26 [aharon]
aphillip: move to 1500 not next week but the following week
16:21:35 [aphillip]
16:21:59 [aphillip]
zakim, take up agendum 2
16:21:59 [Zakim]
agendum 2. "caseless matching in css3 fonts" taken up [from aphillip]
16:22:12 [aphillip]
16:24:23 [aharon]
aphillip: c+s may not match
16:25:34 [aphillip]
example: a font with a german name such as heiƟ wouldn't match HEISS because C+S case fold is only "heis"
16:26:12 [aharon]
aphillip: the concern is that you want your case-folded names to match the other token, and both have to be case-folded the same way...
16:26:47 [aharon]
you have to know that you have to allocate a little more storage for the case-folded version...
16:26:49 [fantasai]
fantasai: Is the concern that the casefld will be incorrectly implemented, or that it won't match when correctly implemented?
16:27:08 [aharon]
a little spurios, since other factors can change the length anyway
16:28:17 [aharon]
JcK; worrying about this particular case "borders on the irrational"
16:28:28 [fantasai]
norbert: should require normalization if doing casefold
16:29:01 [fantasai]
?: Trying to do casefold without normalization is all sorts of trouble.
16:29:14 [fantasai]
?: Maybe right rule is to normalize and casefold for comparison, even if the string is not normalized itself
16:29:14 [Norbert]
s/norbert/Norbert quoting Jonathan/
16:29:18 [aharon]
JcK: maybe the right rule is to normalize around case folds
16:29:21 [aphillip]
16:29:23 [fantasai]
?: A little more complicated, but certainly more reliable
16:29:50 [fantasai]
aphillip: Would be remarkable use of normalization simply because not used anywhere else
16:30:35 [fantasai]
JcK: Should either not casefold at all or normalize and casefold
16:31:02 [fantasai]
aphillip: Don't think we want to change recommendation of which casefold to use
16:31:06 [fantasai]
aphillip: Second quesiton is whether to normalize
16:31:41 [aharon]
zakim, mute me
16:31:41 [Zakim]
aharon should now be muted
16:31:42 [fantasai]
aphillip: efficiency more problematic for normalization than casefolding
16:32:04 [fantasai]
aphillip: We've brought it up with Selectors, other things, een told enough times we're not going to get normalization
16:32:51 [aharon]
fantasai: in all other cases, you had to have normalization span the entire platform
16:33:21 [aharon]
fantasai: not sure that this can even been done
16:34:02 [aharon]
fantasai: in this particular case, it's not about interaction of css with some other technology...
16:34:32 [aharon]
you could require normaliza and case fold, and it would have no effect on the rest of platform
16:36:14 [aharon]
aharon: I am doing a terrible job as scribe, can someone else take over?
16:37:23 [fantasai]
s/some other/some other Web/
16:37:47 [aharon]
zakim, unmute me
16:37:47 [Zakim]
aharon should no longer be muted
16:37:49 [fantasai]
s/.../ but about interaction of CSS with font files via intermediary agent of OS font APIs/
16:38:19 [fsasaki]
scribe: fsasaki
16:38:37 [fsasaki]
addison: conclusions?
16:38:50 [fsasaki]
.. need to understand the rules for common font format
16:38:56 [fsasaki]
... there seem to be limitations
16:39:10 [fsasaki]
fantasai: normalization and case folding makes most sense to me
16:39:14 [fsasaki]
.. in this particular case
16:39:36 [fsasaki]
addison: nothing against including normalization
16:39:51 [fsasaki]
.. objections against case folding should go away too
16:40:15 [fsasaki]
jck: thinking of the argument for normalization we had for IDN
16:40:25 [fsasaki]
.. I don't see an efficiency problem
16:40:41 [fsasaki]
addison: so probably both normalization and case folding are the right thing to do
16:40:59 [fsasaki]
.. there should be a special note saying here is the limited case where we are having normalization
16:41:21 [fantasai]
s/.. I/... These strings are very short, I/
16:41:50 [JcK]
In particular, these are comparisons for very short strings, not operations on very large blocks of text. For such short strings, The efficiency loss is trivial and the comparisons will work much more predictably
16:41:52 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate fsasaki
16:42:05 [aphillip]
action: addison: write back to CSS-fonts about casefolding and normalization, allowing both with health warning (see minutes)
16:42:06 [trackbot]
Created ACTION-198 - Write back to CSS-fonts about casefolding and normalization, allowing both with health warning (see minutes) [on Addison Phillips - due 2013-03-28].
16:42:19 [aphillip]
16:42:37 [aphillip]
zakim, take up agendum 3
16:42:37 [Zakim]
agendum 3. "css3-text-decoration skipping spaces" taken up [from aphillip]
16:42:37 [fsasaki]
present: aharon, matial, aphillip, JcK, Richard, Norbert, fsasaki, fantasai
16:42:47 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate fsasaki
16:43:04 [aphillip]
16:43:05 [fsasaki]
addison: this is about space skip, text decoration for underlining
16:43:18 [fsasaki]
.. above link is summary of what I got back from them
16:43:58 [fsasaki]
.. one of discussion topics: some langauges don't use spaces
16:44:11 [fsasaki]
.. so if you want to (scribe missed)
16:44:23 [fsasaki]
fantasai: reading comment esp. from markus
16:44:46 [fsasaki]
.. propose to do something simple
16:44:54 [fsasaki]
.. do something for languages that have spaces
16:45:10 [fsasaki]
.. if the language has no spaces, you don't want to create a gap
16:45:38 [fsasaki]
.. one thing I didn't understand: how do I specifiy other than linking to CLDR query page?
16:45:49 [fsasaki]
addison: defined elsewhere, like the regex one
16:46:13 [fsasaki]
fantasai: does the regex include entire xyz category?
16:46:31 [fantasai]
16:46:34 [fsasaki]
norbert: javascript has its own ws category
16:46:43 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate fsasaki
16:46:47 [aphillip]
action: addison: seek clarification on [:Whitespace:]
16:46:47 [trackbot]
Created ACTION-199 - Seek clarification on [:Whitespace:] [on Addison Phillips - due 2013-03-28].
16:47:12 [aphillip]
16:47:45 [fsasaki]
fantasai: proposal is to skip all characters in unicode category z
16:47:52 [fsasaki]
addison: minus the vertical white space
16:48:09 [fsasaki]
fantasai: the word separater characters are
16:48:10 [fantasai]
space (U+0020), the no-break space (U+00A0), the Ethiopic word space (U+1361), the Aegean word separators (U+10100,U+10101), the Ugaritic word divider (U+1039F), and the Phoenician Word Separator (U+1091F)
16:48:17 [fsasaki]
16:48:18 [fantasai]
plus whatever is regex White_Space
16:48:29 [fsasaki]
fantasai: that is the current proposal
16:48:32 [Zakim]
16:48:36 [fsasaki]
.. we can skip e.g. over blank
16:48:46 [fsasaki]
.. do we also skip over xxx?
16:49:00 [fantasai]
s/xxx/visible spaces like U+1361/
16:49:02 [fsasaki]
richard: skipping over blank might be an issue too
16:49:17 [fsasaki]
addison: there are joining items you might not want to skip either
16:49:21 [fsasaki]
norbert: e.g. within numbers
16:49:35 [aphillip]
16:49:40 [fsasaki]
s/items/items in punctuation/
16:50:00 [aphillip]
16:50:55 [fsasaki]
discussion on underlyning in Ethopian word spaces
16:51:03 [fsasaki]
16:51:10 [Zakim]
16:51:29 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate aphillip
16:51:46 [Norbert]
16:51:57 [r12a]
fantasai, do you know that you just dropped off the call?
16:52:00 [fantasai]
"conference is restricted" :/
16:52:10 [matial]
me too
16:53:57 [fantasai]
So any conclusions on text-decoration-skip?
16:54:06 [fantasai]
The definition I have is the one above
16:54:09 [aphillip]
I will circle back to unicore
16:54:15 [fantasai]
the open question is what to do with the visible word separators
16:54:16 [aphillip]
and we will take up again next week
16:54:18 [fantasai]
16:54:19 [aphillip]
16:54:38 [aphillip]
16:54:56 [aphillip]
zakim, take up agendum 4
16:54:56 [Zakim]
agendum 4. "language ranges with multiple subtags" taken up [from aphillip]
16:55:35 [aphillip]
norbert: looking for end-to-end language negotiation example that uses script codes
16:55:47 [aphillip]
... or other subtags defined by bcp 47
16:55:59 [aphillip]
richard we have some
16:56:19 [r12a]
16:56:25 [r12a]
look at the chinese version
16:56:27 [aphillip]
norbert: please send examples to list
16:56:34 [aphillip]
richard: see above
16:56:43 [aphillip]
Topic: AOB?
16:57:03 [r12a]
16:57:22 [Zakim]
16:57:23 [Zakim]
16:57:23 [Zakim]
16:57:25 [Zakim]
16:57:29 [aphillip]
rrsagent, make minutes
16:57:29 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate aphillip
16:57:32 [Zakim]
16:57:39 [r12a]
zakim, drop richard
16:57:39 [Zakim]
Richard is being disconnected
16:57:40 [Zakim]
I18N_CoreWG()11:00AM has ended
16:57:40 [Zakim]
Attendees were +972.5.424.5aaaa, aphillip, matial, aharon, +1.617.245.aabb, Richard, Norbert, JcK, fsasaki, fantasai
16:57:50 [aharon]
aharon has left #i18n
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