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12:44:14 <fsasaki> meeting: MLW-LT QG
12:44:19 <fsasaki> s/QG/WG/
12:44:21 <fsasaki> chair: felix
12:44:38 <fsasaki> scribe: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-multilingualweb-lt/2013Mar/0137.html
12:44:46 <fsasaki> agenda: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-multilingualweb-lt/2013Mar/0137.html
12:44:59 <fsasaki> scribe: tbd
12:45:03 <fsasaki> topic: roll call
12:45:08 <fsasaki> checking attendees ..
12:45:20 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2013/03/20-mlw-lt-minutes.html fsasaki
12:46:38 <fsasaki> regrets: jörg, naoto, dave, dom, arle, pedro
12:46:39 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2013/03/20-mlw-lt-minutes.html fsasaki
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12:59:28 <fsasaki> present+ felix
12:59:31 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2013/03/20-mlw-lt-minutes.html fsasaki
12:59:37 <philr> present+ philr
13:00:57 <kfritsche> present+ Karl
13:01:21 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2013/03/20-mlw-lt-minutes.html fsasaki
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13:03:13 <Marcis> present+ Marcis
13:03:43 <giuseppe> present+ Giuseppe
13:03:58 <Marcis> ok
13:04:05 <fsasaki> scribe: Marcis
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13:04:12 <fsasaki> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-multilingualweb-lt/2013Mar/0137.html
13:04:19 <dF> present+ dF
13:04:38 <Marcis> :)
13:04:55 <fsasaki> topic: Short Rome / Luxembourg celebration
13:05:29 <Marcis> Felix: successful week, thx to everyone
13:05:42 <Marcis> Felix: Looking forward to the rest of project
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13:05:56 <Marcis> Philr: did reviewers give formal feedback?
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13:06:04 <Yves_> present+ Yves
13:06:07 <Marcis> Felix: No
13:06:30 <Jirka> present+ Jirka
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13:07:11 <chriLi> present+ chriLi
13:07:16 <Milan> present+ Milan
13:07:17 <Marcis> Felix: Until april will think what to do with the rest of the project/last workshop
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13:08:01 <pnietoca> present+ pnietoca
13:08:11 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2013/03/20-mlw-lt-minutes.html fsasaki
13:08:48 <leroy> present+ leroy
13:08:59 <Marcis> Felix ... it is difficult to hear you
13:09:22 <Marcis> dF: wants to stick to UTC because of Summer Time
13:09:43 <fsasaki> topic: Standoff and script
13:09:51 <fsasaki> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-multilingualweb-lt/2013Mar/0136.html
13:10:43 <dF> I do not want to stick to UTC, in fact I say its an issue, because the same UTC time means something else for US after last Sunday and will mean something else after Europe changes to summer time within a couple of weeks..
13:10:53 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2013/03/20-mlw-lt-minutes.html fsasaki
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13:11:39 <Clemens> present+ Clemens
13:11:43 <Marcis> Felix: wants to close the issue
13:12:21 <Marcis> philr: Work would be needed to change test samples (if changes would be made)
13:12:30 <Marcis> Felix: Agrees to philr
13:12:53 <Marcis> Pablo: Agrees
13:13:32 <Marcis> Pablo: Cons: have to change implementation
13:14:04 <Marcis> Felix: wants not to change anything
13:14:10 <fsasaki> topic: XLIFF mapping
13:15:05 <Marcis> Felix: General thought: this and other documents like ITS onthologies do not ask for changes in the spec,
13:15:25 <Marcis> Felix: wants to concentrate on finishing the spec.
13:15:44 <fsasaki> http://www.w3.org/2013/03/its-xliff
13:15:48 <Marcis> Felix: summary: it is about a separate namespace for ITS in XLIFF
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13:15:54 <Yves_> XLIFF mapping may affect spec: e.g. do we need a local its:domain and its:resourceRef? (we have to use extensions in XLIFF for those)
13:16:10 <fsasaki> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-multilingualweb-lt/2013Mar/0142.html
13:16:14 <mdelolmo> present+ mdelolmo
13:16:34 <Marcis> Felix: summary: some stability for mapping is needed
13:16:47 <Yves_> can't speak sorry
13:16:48 <Marcis> Felix: sees that Yves has some comments
13:17:45 <Marcis> philr: does not know the tech. to comments
13:17:58 <Yves_> there is no local markup for domain but it look like we need one in XLIFF. Like David says
13:18:09 <Marcis> dF: it might be useful (to have a separate namespace)
13:18:26 <Marcis> dF: maybe local mark-up is needed
13:18:38 <Yves_> this is not link to namespace
13:19:25 <Marcis> Felix: is there need for local mark-up in XLIFF?
13:19:44 <Marcis> We do annotate locally in XLIFF ...
13:19:48 <Marcis> (terms)
13:20:13 <Yves_> XLIFF simply shows that some vocabularies don't have a local way to define a domain
13:20:28 <Marcis> dF: Dave is not here, he worked on RDF mapping. Mapping on XLIFF may be more general
13:20:54 <Marcis> Felix: XLIFF may benefit from ... (?)
13:21:19 <Yves_> I can post an email on this
13:21:19 <Marcis> philr: needs a concrete example
13:21:29 <Yves_> no neeed
13:21:40 <Yves_> sure
13:21:50 <philr> Thanks, Yves
13:21:52 <Yves_> so far domain and resref
13:22:25 <Marcis> Felix: open issues in ITS spec
13:22:52 <Marcis> Felix: not convinced that spec would be broken if changes would be added (with respect to XLIFF)
13:23:09 <Marcis> Felix: Hopes that we can have an agreement on this
13:23:17 <Marcis> Felix: Hopes that we can focus on closing issues
13:23:36 <Marcis> Felix: Wants to follow critical mass discussions
13:24:07 <Marcis> philr: concern: XLIFF is unstable (in respect to ITS)
13:24:17 <Marcis> philr: wants stability
13:24:21 <Marcis> dF: it is minor
13:24:31 <Marcis> dF: there are no roadblocks
13:24:43 <Marcis> dF: there is extensibility (in the new XLIFF spec)
13:25:11 <Marcis> dF: have basic stability
13:25:33 <Marcis> dF: thinks (and discussed with Dave and Felix in Rome) that we can return to this later
13:25:49 <Marcis> philr: asks about a sample XLIFF with ITS markup
13:26:04 <Marcis> dF: there is a superXLIFF file
13:26:15 <Marcis> dF: Yves generated also test files
13:26:26 <Marcis> dF: There is a collection on the Test Suite
13:26:33 <Marcis> dF: on GitHub
13:26:44 <Marcis> dF: there are usable examples
13:27:11 <Marcis> dF: feel free to contact Dave, Yves and dF on XLIFF questions
13:27:22 <Marcis> Felix: thanks dF
13:27:29 <fsasaki> topic: disambiguation + term
13:28:10 <Marcis> dF: on previous topic: we need to move the spec out of last call, it is more critical
13:28:22 <Marcis> philr: ok, if there are examples on GitHub
13:28:34 <Marcis> philr: are there separate calls on XLIFF?
13:28:38 <Marcis> dF: not now
13:29:22 <fsasaki> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-multilingualweb-lt/2013Mar/0129.html
13:29:36 <Marcis> Felix: Disambiguation & term
13:29:44 <fsasaki> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-multilingualweb-lt/2013Feb/0221.html
13:29:49 <Marcis> Felix: Christian asks if everyone is ok with the outcome
13:29:57 <fsasaki> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-multilingualweb-lt/2013Feb/0260.html
13:29:58 <Marcis> Felix: there are examples ^^^
13:30:24 <Marcis> Felix: Change of one paragraph
13:30:27 <fsasaki> "How about re-formulating like this: "
13:30:45 <Marcis> Felix: Christian do you have something to add?
13:30:49 <Marcis> Christian: no
13:31:15 <Marcis> Felix: proposes to close the issue with an action item for Christian to edit the spec
13:31:24 <Marcis> Christian: agrees
13:31:31 <Marcis> how do I do that?
13:31:46 <fsasaki> action: christian to make the edit for issue-68
13:31:51 <trackbot> Created ACTION-461 - Make the edit for issue-68 [on Christian Lieske - due 2013-03-27].
13:32:09 <fsasaki> topic: need for "saying that something is not a locale"
13:32:19 <Marcis> Felix: From Yves
13:32:30 <Marcis> Felix: On Locale Filter
13:32:43 <fsasaki> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-multilingualweb-lt-comments/2013Mar/0001.html
13:32:45 <Marcis> Felix: It is not possible currently to say to exclude a locale
13:32:56 <fsasaki> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-multilingualweb-lt-comments/2013Mar/0002.html
13:33:02 <Marcis> Felix: But it is an important use case
13:33:24 <fsasaki> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-multilingualweb-lt-comments/2013Mar/0003.html
13:33:25 <Marcis> Felix: Different from what we had before
13:34:02 <Marcis> Felix: Difference is not only 2 attributes, but a possibility to exclude locales A B C and include X Y Z
13:34:11 <fsasaki> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-multilingualweb-lt-comments/2013Mar/0004.html
13:34:19 <Marcis> Felix: It may have drawbacks to have such flexibility
13:34:21 <fsasaki> <p its-locale-filter-list="en" its-locale-exclude-list="*-CA">An English message not shown to Canadians</p>
13:34:43 <Marcis> Felix: there may be contradictions
13:34:56 <Marcis> Felix: Include and exclude lists may overlap
13:35:37 <Marcis> Felix: Would people be happy reinstalling the type attribute?
13:35:53 <Yves_> I would be ok for the type attribute.
13:36:10 <Marcis> dF: question: the subject says that the e-mail should be marked with an issue number
13:36:21 <fsasaki> https://www.w3.org/International/multilingualweb/lt/track/issues/121
13:36:25 <Marcis> dF: it is not associated with last call comments?
13:36:31 <Marcis> Felix: it is - 1231
13:36:39 <Marcis> Felix: 121
13:36:45 <fsasaki> s/1213/121/
13:37:11 <Yves_> sure
13:37:25 <Marcis> Felix: Yves - would you mind reinstalling the type attribute?
13:37:26 <fsasaki> action: yves to re-install type attribute for locale filter see issue-121
13:37:26 <trackbot> Created ACTION-462 - Re-install type attribute for locale filter see issue-121 [on Yves Savourel - due 2013-03-27].
13:37:58 <fsasaki> topic: HTML default behaviour
13:38:24 <Marcis> Felix: one of the topics, which suffered from the activities in the last weeks.
13:38:36 <Marcis> Felix: haven't had a discussion on this one
13:39:01 <Marcis> Felix: summary: should this be a default for implementations that do not use global rules
13:39:09 <fsasaki> https://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=21085
13:39:13 <Marcis> Felix: how should it be aligned to the HTML5 spec
13:39:33 <Marcis> Felix: Changes are made to the HTML5 spec
13:39:37 <fsasaki> http://html5.org/tools/web-apps-tracker?from=7744&to=7745
13:39:50 <fsasaki> <p>The following attributes are <dfn>translatable attributes</dfn>:</p>
13:40:13 <fsasaki> +  <p>When an element is in the <dfn>translate-enabled</dfn> state, the element's <span>translatable +  attributes</span> and the values of its <code>Text</code> node children are to be translated when +  the page is localized.</p>
13:40:24 <Marcis> Felix: the change (^^^); you see that there is a list of attributes. One difficult aspect for ITS is that there is an interdependency between elements and attributes
13:41:10 <Marcis> Felix: how to reflect the interdependency from HTML5 to ITS?
13:41:46 <Marcis> Felix: any comments?
13:42:27 <Marcis> Felix: no comments
13:43:00 <Marcis> Felix: thinks this topic is around for a long time. We need to resolve this somehow.
13:43:29 <Marcis> Felix: this is a showstopper for leaving last call
13:43:51 <Marcis> Felix: encourages people to think about this
13:44:25 <Marcis> Karl: behaviour is different between implementations (??)
13:45:10 <Marcis> Felix: everyone who is using browser engines will have this issue
13:45:42 <Marcis> Felix: sounds like for Karl it would be useful to rely on HTML5 spec
13:45:50 <Marcis> Karl: not sure about this
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13:46:47 <Marcis> Felix: could try to convince the ones who changed the spec to remove the interdependency between attributes and elements
13:46:57 <Marcis> Karl: Chrome does not support this
13:47:08 <Marcis> Karl: Not sure whether this will be implemented
13:47:24 <Marcis> Karl: sees why the HTML5 editors added this
13:48:17 <Marcis> Felix: any thoughts on how to resolve the difference in the approaches
13:48:22 <Marcis> Karl: not sure
13:48:53 <Marcis> Karl: Those who use XML and HTML will have an issue
13:49:01 <Marcis> Jirka: what is the problem?
13:49:19 <Marcis> Felix: different semantics of its:translate
13:49:52 <Marcis> Jirka: some attributes are translatable on certain elements?
13:49:55 <Marcis> Felix: no
13:50:17 <Marcis> Felix: if certain elements are translatable, some attributes are translatable as well
13:50:23 <Marcis> Felix: and vice versa
13:50:42 <Marcis> Jirka, yes, but it is possible to create ITS rules that behave similarly
13:51:07 <Marcis> s/Jirka,/Jirka:/
13:51:29 <Marcis> Karl: the question is on the list of defaults that we now have to create
13:51:32 <Marcis> Felix: yes
13:51:58 <Marcis> Felix: asks Karl to bring up the e-mail exchange again
13:52:22 <Marcis> Karl: after the call will do that
13:52:38 <Marcis> Felix: thx
13:52:48 <fsasaki> topic: aob
13:53:04 <Marcis> Felix: next week 1PM UTC
13:53:18 <Marcis> Karl: only Wednesday
13:53:22 <Marcis> Felix: yes
13:53:35 <Marcis> Felix: need also additional calls for editing
13:54:00 <fsasaki> http://www.w3.org/International/multilingualweb/lt/wiki/BledMay2013
13:54:14 <Marcis> Felix: Tadej created a page for Bled F2F
13:54:20 <fsasaki> http://www.w3.org/International/multilingualweb/lt/wiki/BledMay2013#Participants
13:54:51 <Marcis> Felix: asks everyone to register as remote even if they do not plan to come
13:54:59 <Marcis> Karl: but there is no agenda?
13:55:02 <Marcis> Felix: not yet
13:55:31 <Marcis> Felix: Test Suite coverage may fluctuate because of changes in the spec
13:55:49 <Marcis> Felix: anything else for today?
13:56:02 <Marcis> Felix: thx for today
13:56:06 <Marcis> bye
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13:56:16 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2013/03/20-mlw-lt-minutes.html fsasaki