IRC log of wai-wcag on 2013-03-07

Timestamps are in UTC.

20:55:05 [RRSAgent]
RRSAgent has joined #wai-wcag
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logging to http://www.w3.org/2013/03/07-wai-wcag-irc
20:55:07 [trackbot]
RRSAgent, make logs public
20:55:07 [Zakim]
Zakim has joined #wai-wcag
20:55:09 [trackbot]
Zakim, this will be WAI_WCAG
20:55:09 [Zakim]
ok, trackbot; I see WAI_WCAG()4:00PM scheduled to start in 5 minutes
20:55:10 [trackbot]
Meeting: Web Content Accessibility Guidelines Working Group Teleconference
20:55:10 [trackbot]
Date: 07 March 2013
20:57:29 [Zakim]
WAI_WCAG()4:00PM has now started
20:57:36 [Zakim]
+??P1
20:57:37 [MichaelC]
zakim, ??P1 is Michael_Cooper
20:57:37 [Zakim]
+Michael_Cooper; got it
20:57:53 [Joshue108]
zakim, code?
20:57:53 [Zakim]
the conference code is 9224 (tel:+1.617.761.6200 sip:zakim@voip.w3.org), Joshue108
20:58:00 [AWK]
AWK has joined #wai-wcag
20:58:03 [Zakim]
+[IPcaller]
20:58:04 [Zakim]
+[Adobe]
20:58:20 [MichaelC]
zakim, IPcaller is Joshue_O_Connor
20:58:20 [Zakim]
+Joshue_O_Connor; got it
20:58:27 [MichaelC]
zakim, Adobe is Andrew_Kirkpatrick
20:58:27 [Zakim]
+Andrew_Kirkpatrick; got it
20:59:43 [Zakim]
+Bruce_Bailey
21:00:24 [Zakim]
+Judy
21:00:29 [Zakim]
+Ben_and_Gregg
21:00:43 [MichaelC]
zakim, Ben is really Gregg_Vanderheiden
21:00:43 [Zakim]
+Gregg_Vanderheiden; got it
21:00:57 [Zakim]
+[Microsoft]
21:01:15 [marcjohlic]
marcjohlic has joined #wai-wcag
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+Marc_Johlic
21:01:32 [MichaelC]
regrets: Kerstin_Probiesch, Alex_Li
21:01:44 [MichaelC]
agenda: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/w3c-wai-gl/2013JanMar/0114.html
21:01:50 [Loretta]
Loretta has joined #WAI-WCAG
21:01:53 [Zakim]
-Bruce_Bailey
21:01:59 [MichaelC]
chair: Loretta_Guarino_Reid
21:02:36 [MichaelC]
zakim, Microsoft is Cherie_Eckholm
21:02:36 [Zakim]
+Cherie_Eckholm; got it
21:02:47 [Zakim]
+Bruce_Bailey
21:03:00 [Loretta]
Augh! The phone in my conference room is dead!
21:03:33 [MichaelC]
scribe: MichaelC
21:04:56 [Zakim]
+Robin_Tuttle
21:05:06 [Loretta]
Trying Google Talk, but getting no answer...
21:05:57 [Zakim]
+James_Nurthen
21:06:08 [robin]
robin has joined #wai-wcag
21:06:46 [Zakim]
+[GVoice]
21:06:58 [MichaelC]
zakim, Gvoice is Loretta_Guarino_Reid
21:06:58 [Zakim]
+Loretta_Guarino_Reid; got it
21:07:01 [jamesn]
jamesn has joined #wai-wcag
21:07:51 [MichaelC]
topic: WCAG organizational announcements
21:08:13 [MichaelC]
lgr: Gregg and Loretta have been co-chairs for a long time, finally time to step down
21:08:30 [MichaelC]
W3C has appointed Joshue O Connor and Andrew Kirkpatrick as new co-chairs
21:08:55 [MichaelC]
there will be a transition period, they official take over 25 April 2013
21:09:09 [MichaelC]
it´s been a great privilege to work in this capacity
21:09:27 [Judy]
Judy has joined #wai-wcag
21:09:34 [MichaelC]
gv: As you know, I´ve had increasing commitment in other fora
21:09:46 [MichaelC]
also good to bring in new blood
21:10:04 [MichaelC]
good to do it at time that we´re not leaving the WG, just handing over the chair baton
21:10:28 [MichaelC]
charter is due to be renewed this year, good to have the new co-chairs in place before we do the work on that
21:10:45 [MichaelC]
again, both Loretta and Gregg will continue as members of the Working Group
21:11:24 [MichaelC]
co-chairs have been equal partners, handing over responsibilities between them as circumstances warrant
21:11:58 [MichaelC]
note that WG chairs are not appointed by the WG or its chairs, but by W3C management
21:12:10 [MichaelC]
though we were consulted and happy with the choices
21:12:59 [MichaelC]
jb: Massive thanks to Gregg and Loretta for the long period of hard work and dedication
21:13:05 [MichaelC]
chair role can be very demanding
21:13:15 [MichaelC]
particularly when getting a Rec published
21:13:31 [MichaelC]
was looking back - Gregg was appointed October 1997, and Loretta June 2006
21:13:36 [MichaelC]
long terms to serve
21:13:58 [MichaelC]
this is a key WG for impact on how the Web works for people with disabilities
21:14:13 [MichaelC]
so thanks so much for all your work
21:14:28 [MichaelC]
Procedurally:
21:14:40 [MichaelC]
chairs are appointed by the Director
21:15:07 [Zakim]
-Cherie_Eckholm
21:15:43 [Zakim]
+[Microsoft]
21:15:46 [MichaelC]
when GV and LGR felt it was time to step back, we looked to find an appropriate time for the switch-over
21:15:50 [adam_solomon]
adam_solomon has joined #wai-wcag
21:15:56 [MichaelC]
zakim, Microsoft is Cherie_Eckholm
21:15:56 [Zakim]
+Cherie_Eckholm; got it
21:16:06 [greggvanderheiden]
greggvanderheiden has joined #wai-wcag
21:16:07 [Zakim]
+[IPcaller]
21:16:16 [MichaelC]
and looked at candidates who could balance each other´s strengths and help share the workload
21:16:36 [adam_solomon]
zakim, [IPcaller] is adam_solomon
21:16:36 [Zakim]
+adam_solomon; got it
21:16:44 [MichaelC]
rrsagent, make minutes
21:16:44 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2013/03/07-wai-wcag-minutes.html MichaelC
21:17:25 [adam_solomon]
ok
21:17:27 [MichaelC]
there are times when one chair has a strong view on something, and will recuse the chair role for that topic, so the other chair can take over
21:17:50 [MichaelC]
Michael Cooper will be continuing as Staff Contact
21:18:10 [MichaelC]
and I´ll continue to be available as well, particularly during the transition
21:18:55 [MichaelC]
the graduated transition will allow the outgoing chairs to help the incoming chairs get going smoothly
21:18:57 [MichaelC]
The charter is due for renewal this year
21:19:02 [MichaelC]
which is part of the normal cycle of W3C work
21:19:15 [MichaelC]
usually they are renewed every three years
21:19:29 [MichaelC]
it´s time to think of what the group should do over the next three years
21:19:57 [MichaelC]
including where we might want new participation
21:20:10 [MichaelC]
Andrew and Josh will be in the position to help us sort that
21:20:34 [MichaelC]
An announcement to the W3C Advisory Committee will go out shortly after this meeting
21:21:43 [MichaelC]
awk: Thanks to Gregg & Loretta for all their years of work so far
21:22:03 [MichaelC]
would have been reluctant to step into this if they weren´t sticking around
21:22:09 [MichaelC]
flattered and terrified to be considered
21:22:19 [MichaelC]
very interested in everyone´s input on group direction
21:22:42 [MichaelC]
joc: Also thanks to everyone involved
21:22:50 [MichaelC]
these are big shoes to fill
21:22:53 [MichaelC]
see my role as service and stewardship
21:22:57 [MichaelC]
hope to help the group progress
21:23:05 [MichaelC]
also delighted and scared to do this
21:24:33 [MichaelC]
lgr: One issue is that the teleconference time, which we´ve had for a long time, doesn´t work well for Josh
21:24:38 [MichaelC]
may look into changing that
21:25:01 [MichaelC]
jb: Note Josh has been active in WCAG task forces
21:25:11 [MichaelC]
we´ve heard for a long time that the call time is difficult for Europe
21:25:18 [MichaelC]
hard to fix since it´s an international effort
21:25:51 [MichaelC]
W3C now has a Host in China, so encouraging groups to consider worldwide time slots more than ever
21:26:23 [MichaelC]
gv: WCAG is heating up in Europe
21:26:32 [Zakim]
-Bruce_Bailey
21:26:52 [MichaelC]
this is one of only a couple windows that more or less work worldwide, but means super-early for some and super-late for others
21:27:05 [MichaelC]
experiments with splitting group to different call times didn´t work
21:27:10 [Zakim]
+Bruce_Bailey
21:27:10 [MichaelC]
will have to figure something out
21:28:44 [Zakim]
-Bruce_Bailey
21:29:41 [Zakim]
+Bruce_Bailey
21:30:01 [MichaelC]
btw it´s not our intent to stick around just for transition then leave - we do expect to continue our involvement over the long term
21:30:01 [MichaelC]
as regular participants
21:30:16 [MichaelC]
Also want to thank Michael for his ongoing work as Staff Contact
21:30:31 [MichaelC]
co-chairs and Staff Contact work together to make sure the group is following the W3C rules
21:30:54 [MichaelC]
and Michael does all the work of getting publications out etc.
21:30:54 [Zakim]
+David_MacDonald
21:31:03 [MichaelC]
rrsagent, make minutes
21:31:03 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2013/03/07-wai-wcag-minutes.html MichaelC
21:33:18 [Joshue108]
+1
21:34:39 [MichaelC]
I´ve been on a lot of Working Groups and this is one of the best
21:35:01 [MichaelC]
lots of problems to solve but we always come together to solve them
21:35:14 [MichaelC]
a lot of people have come before us
21:35:23 [MichaelC]
look at the contributors list in the specs
21:35:44 [Zakim]
-Bruce_Bailey
21:38:03 [Zakim]
+Bruce_Bailey
21:43:40 [MichaelC]
topic: Public Review of Understanding and Techniques
21:43:55 [MichaelC]
lgr: we haven´t updated in more than a year
21:44:27 [MichaelC]
would like to publish during the chair transition, so the new chairs can see that process
21:44:45 [MichaelC]
mc: public editors´ draft or updated Note?
21:45:01 [MichaelC]
lgr: editors´ draft, to collect input prior to Note update
21:45:15 [MichaelC]
don´t know if we can close all open comments, some of which deal with techniques
21:45:20 [MichaelC]
but want to close as many as possible
21:45:37 [MichaelC]
topic: LC-2745 : Adding an Example 4: Validating PDF
21:45:37 [MichaelC]
https://www.w3.org/2002/09/wbs/35422/20130307misc/results#x2745
21:46:47 [MichaelC]
RESOLUTION: accept as amended
21:46:54 [MichaelC]
topic: LC-2724 : Contradiction in techniques - F73 & G182, and G183
21:46:59 [MichaelC]
https://www.w3.org/2002/09/wbs/35422/20130307misc/results#x2724
21:53:31 [Loretta]
http://www.w3.org/WAI/GL/WCAG20-TECHS/F73.html
21:55:54 [Joshue108]
+1 to GV verbiage, something along the lines 'if a link is percievable visually' or similar.
21:56:08 [AWK]
Link underlines or some other non-color visual distinction are required --> Link underlines or some other non-color visual distinction are required when links are presented using color that is different from surrounding text.
21:57:32 [Zakim]
-adam_solomon
21:58:06 [Zakim]
-Judy
21:58:35 [Zakim]
-Joshue_O_Connor
21:59:43 [greggvanderheiden]
The objective of this failure is to avoid situations in which people who cannot perceive color differences cannot identify links (when people with color vision can identify links). Link underlines or some other non-color visual distinction are required (when the links are discernible to those with color vision).
21:59:43 [greggvanderheiden]
While some links may be visually evident from page design and context, such as navigational links, links within text are often visually understood only from their own display attributes. Removing the underline and leaving only the color difference for such links would be a failure because there would be no other visual indication (besides color) that it is a link.
22:01:46 [greggvanderheiden]
NOTE: Red and Pink are the same color (hue) but they have different lightness (which is not color ). So red and pink would pass the requirement for "not distinguished by color (hue) alone" since they differ by lightness (which is not color) - as long as the difference in lightness (contrast) is 3:1 or greater. (e.g. if surrounding text is RED and the link is PINK it would pass. Similarly a light green and a dark red differ BOTH by
22:01:47 [greggvanderheiden]
color AND by lightness so they would pass if the contrast (lightness) difference is 3:1 or greater) before focus or pointing. )
22:02:47 [Loretta]
Similarly a light green and a dark red differ B[CUT]
22:02:56 [Loretta]
color AND by lightness so they would pass
22:03:18 [greggvanderheiden]
NOTE: Red and Pink are the same color (hue) but they have different lightness (which is not color ). So red and pink would pass the requirement for "not distinguished by color (hue) alone" since they differ by lightness (which is not color) - as long as the difference in lightness (contrast) is 3:1 or greater.
22:03:19 [greggvanderheiden]
(e.g. if surrounding text is RED and the link is PINK it would pass. Similarly a light green and a dark red differ BOTH by color AND by lightness so they would pass if the contrast (lightness) difference is 3:1 or greater) before focus or pointing. )
22:04:43 [greggvanderheiden]
Note 2: There is no requirement that links be identifiable by people who cannot perceive color if they are not perceivable for those with color vision. (e.g. if the links are hidden for everyone – as in a game or test).
22:04:53 [greggvanderheiden]
Note 1: If the non-color cue only happens when the mouse hovers over the link or when the link receives focus, it is still a failure.
22:04:53 [greggvanderheiden]
Note 2: If the link is a different color and bold it would not fail because the boldness is not color dependent.
22:05:23 [Loretta]
Check that each link within text that is part of a sentence or paragraph (or other area where they could be mistaken as non-linked text) in the page is underlined or otherwise visually identifiable (i.e., bolded, italicized) as a link without relying on color (hue).
22:05:34 [Loretta]
=>
22:07:13 [Loretta]
Check that eaach link within text (...) that is identifiable replying on color (hue) is also underlined or otherwise visually identifiable (i.e., bolded, italicized) as a link
22:09:17 [AWK]
Check that each link in the page which is identifyably by color (hue) is underlined or otherwise visually identifiable via some other means (i.e., bolded, italicized).
22:10:18 [AWK]
Check that each link in the page which is identifiable by color (hue) is visually identifiable via some other means (i.e., underlined, bolded, italicized).
22:10:36 [Zakim]
+Cooper
22:11:23 [Zakim]
-Michael_Cooper
22:11:50 [AWK]
Check that each link in the page which is identifiable by color (hue) is visually identifiable via some other means (i.e., underlined, bolded, italicized, 3:1 difference in lightness).
22:12:16 [Loretta]
e.g. rather than i.e ?
22:12:49 [greggvanderheiden]
Check that each link in the page that is identifiable by color (hue) is visually identifiable via some other means (e.g., underlined, bolded, italicized, 3:1 difference in lightness).
22:14:02 [AWK]
G145: Ensuring that a contrast ratio of at least 3:1 exists between text (and images of text) and background behind the text
22:14:11 [Loretta]
"sufficient difference" rather than "3:1 difference"?
22:15:27 [AWK]
sorry, meant G183: Using a contrast ratio of 3:1 with surrounding text and providing additional visual cues on focus for links or controls where color alone is used to identify them
22:15:55 [AWK]
http://www.w3.org/TR/WCAG20-TECHS/G183.html
22:16:28 [greggvanderheiden]
1.Check that each link in the page that is identifiable by color (hue) is visually identifiable via some other means (e.g., underlined, bolded, italicized, sufficient difference in lightness, etc). [G182], [G183]
22:18:18 [Loretta]
G182: Ensuring that additional visual cues are available when text color differences are used to convey information G183: Using a contrast ratio of 3:1 with surrounding text and providing additional visual cues on focus for links or controls where color alone is used to identify them
22:18:31 [AWK]
http://www.w3.org/TR/WCAG20-TECHS/G182.html
22:23:14 [MichaelC]
RESOLUTION: accept as amended
22:23:59 [greggvanderheiden]
s/accept/2724 accepted/
22:24:10 [MichaelC]
topic: LC-2729 : AREA element with no href should not have an alt attribute
22:24:14 [MichaelC]
https://www.w3.org/2002/09/wbs/35422/20130307misc/results#x2729
22:24:19 [MichaelC]
RESOLUTION: accept as proposed
22:24:53 [greggvanderheiden]
greggvanderheiden has left #wai-wcag
22:25:01 [MichaelC]
scribeOptions: -final
22:25:01 [Zakim]
-James_Nurthen
22:25:11 [Zakim]
-Andrew_Kirkpatrick
22:25:12 [MichaelC]
scribeOptions: -scribeOnly
22:25:12 [Zakim]
-David_MacDonald
22:25:12 [Zakim]
-Marc_Johlic
22:25:14 [Zakim]
-Gregg_Vanderheiden
22:25:15 [Zakim]
-Cooper
22:25:18 [Zakim]
-Cherie_Eckholm
22:25:20 [Zakim]
-Bruce_Bailey
22:25:20 [Zakim]
-Robin_Tuttle
22:25:24 [Zakim]
-Loretta_Guarino_Reid
22:25:25 [Zakim]
WAI_WCAG()4:00PM has ended
22:25:25 [Zakim]
Attendees were Michael_Cooper, Joshue_O_Connor, Andrew_Kirkpatrick, Bruce_Bailey, Judy, Ben_and_Gregg, Gregg_Vanderheiden, Marc_Johlic, Cherie_Eckholm, Robin_Tuttle, James_Nurthen,
22:25:25 [Zakim]
... Loretta_Guarino_Reid, adam_solomon, David_MacDonald, Cooper
22:25:33 [MichaelC]
rrsagent, make minutes
22:25:33 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2013/03/07-wai-wcag-minutes.html MichaelC
22:48:00 [MichaelC]
zakim, bye
22:48:00 [Zakim]
Zakim has left #wai-wcag
22:48:01 [MichaelC]
rrsagent, bye
22:48:01 [RRSAgent]
I see no action items