IRC log of i18n on 2013-03-07

Timestamps are in UTC.

15:53:31 [RRSAgent]
RRSAgent has joined #i18n
15:53:31 [RRSAgent]
logging to
15:53:35 [Zakim]
Zakim has joined #i18n
15:53:41 [aphillip]
trackbot, prepare teleconference
15:53:43 [trackbot]
RRSAgent, make logs world
15:53:45 [trackbot]
Zakim, this will be 4186
15:53:45 [Zakim]
ok, trackbot; I see I18N_CoreWG()11:00AM scheduled to start in 7 minutes
15:53:46 [trackbot]
Meeting: Internationalization Working Group Teleconference
15:53:46 [trackbot]
Date: 07 March 2013
15:54:38 [aphillip]
15:54:44 [aphillip]
Chair: Addison Phillips
15:54:55 [aphillip]
rrsagent, set logs world
15:54:59 [aphillip]
rrsagent, draft minutes
15:54:59 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate aphillip
15:55:32 [aphillip]
zakim, agenda+ Reviews
15:55:32 [Zakim]
agendum 1 added
15:55:49 [aphillip]
zakim, agenda+ Ruby Use Cases
15:55:49 [Zakim]
agendum 2 added
15:56:07 [aphillip]
zakim, agenda+ What Time is this Meeting At
15:56:07 [Zakim]
agendum 3 added
15:56:21 [aphillip]
zakim, agenda+ CSS3-text-decoration skip spaces
15:56:21 [Zakim]
agendum 4 added
15:56:35 [aphillip]
zakim, agenda+ bidi change proposal
15:56:35 [Zakim]
agendum 5 added
15:56:52 [aphillip]
zakim, agenda+ Charmod-Norm
15:56:52 [Zakim]
agendum 6 added
15:57:42 [aphillip]
zakim, who is here?
15:57:42 [Zakim]
I18N_CoreWG()11:00AM has not yet started, aphillip
15:57:44 [Zakim]
On IRC I see RRSAgent, aphillip, fsasaki, r12a, fantasai, trackbot
15:57:57 [David]
David has joined #i18n
15:58:51 [Zakim]
I18N_CoreWG()11:00AM has now started
15:58:58 [Zakim]
+ +1.408.536.aaaa
15:59:03 [Zakim]
- +1.408.536.aaaa
15:59:03 [Zakim]
I18N_CoreWG()11:00AM has ended
15:59:03 [Zakim]
Attendees were +1.408.536.aaaa
16:00:10 [Zakim]
I18N_CoreWG()11:00AM has now started
16:00:16 [Zakim]
16:00:21 [aphillip]
zakim, who is here?
16:00:21 [Zakim]
On the phone I see aphillip
16:00:23 [Zakim]
On IRC I see David, Zakim, RRSAgent, aphillip, fsasaki, r12a, fantasai, trackbot
16:00:34 [aphillip]
zakim, agenda?
16:00:34 [Zakim]
I see 6 items remaining on the agenda:
16:00:35 [Zakim]
1. Reviews [from aphillip]
16:00:35 [Zakim]
2. Ruby Use Cases [from aphillip]
16:00:35 [Zakim]
3. What Time is this Meeting At [from aphillip]
16:00:35 [Zakim]
4. CSS3-text-decoration skip spaces [from aphillip]
16:00:36 [Zakim]
5. bidi change proposal [from aphillip]
16:00:36 [Zakim]
6. Charmod-Norm [from aphillip]
16:00:38 [r12a]
zakim, dial richard
16:00:39 [Zakim]
ok, r12a; the call is being made
16:00:39 [Zakim]
16:00:45 [JcK]
JcK has joined #i18n
16:00:58 [Zakim]
16:01:16 [aphillip]
zakim, ??P15 is matial
16:01:16 [Zakim]
+matial; got it
16:01:27 [Zakim]
16:01:55 [Zakim]
+ +1.617.245.aaaa
16:02:15 [r12a]
zakim, who's here?
16:02:15 [Zakim]
On the phone I see aphillip, Richard.a, matial, fsasaki (muted), johnC
16:02:16 [Zakim]
On IRC I see JcK, David, Zakim, RRSAgent, aphillip, fsasaki, r12a, fantasai, trackbot
16:02:36 [Zakim]
+ +1.408.536.aabb
16:02:59 [aphillip]
zakim, +1.408 is JohnO
16:02:59 [Zakim]
+JohnO; got it
16:03:22 [David]
It may be a few minutes before I can dial in
16:03:47 [matial]
matial has joined #i18n
16:03:58 [Zakim]
16:04:10 [Norbert]
Norbert has joined #i18n
16:05:01 [aphillip]
Topic: Action Items
16:06:08 [aphillip]
ScribeNick: aphillip
16:06:30 [joconner]
joconner has joined #i18n
16:06:51 [r12a]
16:08:00 [aphillip]
close action-189
16:08:00 [trackbot]
Closed ACTION-189 Announce ruby note will be published as note, last call for next week.
16:08:09 [DavidClarke]
DavidClarke has joined #i18n
16:08:36 [aphillip]
close action-190
16:08:37 [trackbot]
Closed ACTION-190 Write to contacts and cjk list about bopomofo handling as base and as ruby text.
16:09:47 [aharon]
aharon has joined #i18n
16:10:00 [aphillip]
close action-191
16:10:00 [trackbot]
Closed ACTION-191 Request comments on wiki page about bidi change proposal to robin, bidi list, winter list, and html.
16:10:34 [aphillip]
close action-192
16:10:34 [trackbot]
Closed ACTION-192 Solicit from input Unicode on skipping spaces in css3 text-decoration specifically ethiopic word sep, etc..
16:10:40 [Najib-ma]
Najib-ma has joined #i18n
16:10:45 [aphillip]
close action-193
16:10:45 [trackbot]
Closed ACTION-193 Supply CSS3 with pictures of skip-ink for tibetan or khmer.
16:10:53 [Zakim]
+ +44.141.888.aacc
16:10:56 [aphillip]
Topic: Info Share
16:10:59 [Zakim]
+ +972.5.424.5aadd
16:11:00 [aphillip]
zakim, +44 is David
16:11:00 [Zakim]
+David; got it
16:11:13 [aphillip]
zakim, +972 is aharon
16:11:13 [Zakim]
+aharon; got it
16:11:17 [r12a]
zakim, who's here?
16:11:17 [Zakim]
On the phone I see aphillip, Richard.a, matial (muted), fsasaki (muted), JcK, JohnO, Norbert, David, aharon
16:11:19 [Zakim]
On IRC I see Najib-ma, aharon, DavidClarke, joconner, Norbert, matial, JcK, Zakim, RRSAgent, aphillip, fsasaki, r12a, fantasai, trackbot
16:11:27 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate aphillip
16:11:27 [aharon]
zakim, mute me
16:11:27 [Zakim]
aharon should now be muted
16:11:34 [aphillip]
Norbert: ecmascript
16:11:36 [Norbert]
16:11:45 [r12a]
16:11:52 [aphillip]
Norbert: published frist draft of second edition
16:11:56 [aphillip]
... adds time zone ids
16:12:01 [aphillip]
... from tzinfo
16:12:13 [aphillip]
... can specify language for casing
16:12:22 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate aphillip
16:12:46 [Norbert]
16:12:49 [aphillip]
zakim, take up agendum 1
16:12:49 [Zakim]
agendum 1. "Reviews" taken up [from aphillip]
16:13:02 [aphillip]
16:13:43 [aphillip]
[ ]
16:14:05 [aphillip]
norbert volunteers to shepherd :-)
16:15:02 [aphillip]
HTML+RDFa and XInclude 1.1: no comments
16:16:12 [aphillip]
zakim, take up 3
16:16:12 [Zakim]
I don't understand 'take up 3', aphillip
16:16:19 [aphillip]
zakim, take up agendum 3
16:16:19 [Zakim]
agendum 3. "What Time is this Meeting At" taken up [from aphillip]
16:16:28 [aphillip]
16:16:55 [aharon]
zakim, unmute me
16:16:55 [Zakim]
aharon should no longer be muted
16:17:27 [matial]
zakim, unmute me
16:17:27 [Zakim]
matial was not muted, matial
16:22:19 [aphillip]
JcK: stick to 1600Z and check for whom this is a problem?
16:22:32 [aphillip]
action: addison: poll for heartburn for keeping call at 1600Z
16:22:32 [trackbot]
Created ACTION-194 - Poll for heartburn for keeping call at 1600Z [on Addison Phillips - due 2013-03-14].
16:24:47 [aphillip]
16:25:27 [aphillip]
zakim, take up agendum 5
16:25:27 [Zakim]
agendum 5. "bidi change proposal" taken up [from aphillip]
16:26:02 [aphillip]
richard: didn't move wiki forward because of discussion of
16:26:11 [aphillip]
... IE in stds mode is doing isolation
16:26:27 [aphillip]
... so use case of "old hacks" might not be important?
16:26:32 [aphillip]
... so crucial question
16:26:43 [aphillip]
... simplest way to is change semantics of @dir
16:26:50 [aphillip]
... and that woudl be easiest
16:26:54 [aphillip]
...want to discuss that
16:27:09 [DavidClarke]
16:27:12 [aphillip]
aharon: agree with your analysis
16:27:18 [aphillip]
... did more IE testing
16:27:30 [aphillip]
... if non-stds mode, does weird stuff
16:27:36 [aphillip]
... if span with @dir
16:27:43 [aphillip]
... isolates stuff following
16:27:47 [aphillip]
... but not preceeding it
16:27:51 [aphillip]
... so weird
16:27:58 [aphillip]
... can't say IE has isolation
16:28:06 [JcK]
Having had that scheduling discussion, regrets for next week -- IETF meeting conflicts with anything after 1130 UT :-(
16:28:08 [aphillip]
... but can say that currently a lack of interop
16:28:54 [aphillip]
richard: do to decide?
16:29:03 [aphillip]
16:29:06 [aphillip]
richard: three scenarios
16:29:17 [aphillip]
... ask WG?
16:29:39 [aphillip]
Norbert: anyone rely on embedding
16:29:55 [aphillip]
... and how does it work with IE
16:29:59 [aphillip]
... if no one relies on
16:30:02 [aphillip]
... then can change
16:30:12 [aphillip]
richard: aharon had examples of it though
16:30:26 [aphillip]
aharon: actually found examples in pages designed for IE7
16:30:45 [aphillip]
... those pages would have been broken by change in IE
16:31:06 [aphillip]
richard: how many more fixed than broken by change??
16:31:19 [aphillip]
... so maybe some uplift too
16:31:32 [aphillip]
aharon: probably right thing to to
16:31:43 [aphillip]
... but don't believe my opinion will carry day
16:32:36 [aphillip]
richard: two items docuemented
16:32:40 [aphillip]
... new @diration
16:32:42 [Norbert]
zakim, who is noisy?
16:32:45 [aphillip]
.... add two values
16:32:53 [Zakim]
Norbert, listening for 10 seconds I heard sound from the following: matial (4%), Richard.a (85%)
16:32:54 [aphillip]
16:33:02 [aphillip]
... and third would be change semantics
16:33:35 [aphillip]
matial: limit damage with semantics change
16:33:43 [aharon_]
aharon_ has joined #i18n
16:33:45 [aphillip]
... by giving guidance for using RLM etc
16:34:16 [aphillip]
... using same markup, so to get same behavior you'd add enclosing RLM/LRM
16:34:43 [aphillip]
aharon: new version of article gives that as guidance now
16:35:01 [matial]
zakim, mute me
16:35:01 [Zakim]
matial should now be muted
16:35:22 [aphillip]
richard: need to put in front of HTML and CSS
16:35:39 [aphillip]
... need to edit wiki first
16:35:49 [aphillip]
... won't get to for two weeks
16:36:44 [aphillip]
chair: to look at in two weeks
16:36:59 [aphillip]
aharon: one other thing
16:37:03 [aphillip]
... new attribute values
16:37:12 [aphillip]
... dependent on using css hack for transition
16:37:18 [aphillip]
... css-hack doesn't work
16:37:21 [aphillip]
... for IE7 and earlier
16:37:24 [aphillip]
... nothing works there
16:38:03 [aphillip]
... totally ignore (and doesn't show css) any @dir with unrecognized values
16:38:13 [aphillip]
... as if @dir=foo is not even there
16:38:31 [aphillip]
richard: please send me examples for wiki
16:38:34 [aphillip]
... so can be complete
16:38:36 [aphillip]
aharon: okay
16:38:41 [aphillip]
16:38:56 [aphillip]
zakim, take up agendum 2
16:38:56 [Zakim]
agendum 2. "Ruby Use Cases" taken up [from aphillip]
16:39:04 [r12a]
ACTION: Aharon to send Richard notes about IE behaviour wrt direction
16:39:04 [trackbot]
Created ACTION-195 - Send Richard notes about IE behaviour wrt direction [on Aharon Lanin - due 2013-03-14].
16:39:11 [aharon]
zakim, mute me
16:39:12 [Zakim]
aharon should now be muted
16:39:14 [aphillip]
16:39:25 [aphillip]
richard: started making edits
16:39:30 [aphillip]
... more I thought about it...
16:39:41 [aphillip]
... combining new thing with old thing
16:39:53 [aphillip]
... hypothetical cases were pretty historical
16:40:00 [aphillip]
... didn't think I'd have time to fix it
16:40:06 [aphillip]
... but deciced to plunge ahead
16:40:14 [aphillip]
... much better document (and shorter too)
16:40:25 [aphillip]
... so have rewritten a lot (most text touched)
16:40:31 [aphillip]
... so back to needing to review
16:40:37 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate aphillip
16:40:41 [aphillip]
... need wide review
16:41:05 [aphillip]
addison: think this is useful
16:41:20 [aphillip]
Norbert: markup?
16:41:55 [aphillip]
richard: space issue
16:42:09 [aphillip]
... everyone pretty prints their html for examples
16:42:23 [aphillip]
... this causes spurious spaces
16:43:53 [aphillip]
Consider the sequence: がつgatsu月. There are no spaces in the sequence. You don't want to insert one just because the break occurs just before or after "gatsu". However, the opposite case can also exist: "The word 月 appears in this sentence." 月 wants spaces around it here. It is the layout context that matters and this cannot be determined strictly from the characters at the line break location.
16:45:53 [aphillip]
doesn't work for Thai either
16:46:08 [aphillip]
richard: should move away from current html5 (another reason)
16:46:16 [aphillip]
... open/close <rb> tags help
16:46:37 [RRSAgent]
I'm logging. I don't understand 'drafit minutes', aphillip. Try /msg RRSAgent help
16:46:38 [r12a]
16:46:45 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate aphillip
16:47:11 [r12a]
16:47:22 [RRSAgent]
I'm logging. Sorry, nothing found for 'who is here'
16:47:55 [aphillip]
action: richard: request fequest feedback on ruby use cases with an eye towards publishing updated version in two weeks
16:47:55 [trackbot]
Created ACTION-196 - Request fequest feedback on ruby use cases with an eye towards publishing updated version in two weeks [on Richard Ishida - due 2013-03-14].
16:48:12 [aphillip]
s/two weeks from 7 March/
16:48:24 [aphillip]
s/two weeks/two weeks from 7 March/
16:48:35 [aphillip]
16:48:55 [aphillip]
zakim, take up agendum 6
16:48:55 [Zakim]
agendum 6. "Charmod-Norm" taken up [from aphillip]
16:49:09 [aphillip]
16:49:43 [aphillip]
16:54:34 [aphillip]
Norbert: add search cases for user text and user interaction with text
16:54:38 [aphillip]
... rather than identifiers, etc.
16:55:26 [aphillip]
addison: wouldn't affect content authors and wouldn't affect specs
16:55:36 [aphillip]
... but implementatinos of "find" would be
16:56:57 [aphillip]
Topic: AOB?
16:58:12 [aphillip]
addison: will take css skip spaces next week, will send email with the feedback
16:58:31 [Zakim]
16:58:33 [Zakim]
16:58:34 [Zakim]
16:58:34 [matial]
16:58:35 [Zakim]
16:58:37 [Zakim]
16:58:42 [Zakim]
16:58:44 [aphillip]
rrsagent, make minutes
16:58:44 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate aphillip
16:58:45 [joconner]
joconner has left #i18n
16:58:49 [Zakim]
16:58:52 [r12a]
zakim, drop richard
16:58:52 [Zakim]
Richard.a is being disconnected
16:58:54 [Zakim]
16:59:12 [aharon]
zakim, unmute me
16:59:12 [Zakim]
sorry, aharon, I do not know which phone connection belongs to you
16:59:28 [aharon]
aharon has left #i18n
16:59:32 [r12a]
zakim, drop richard
16:59:32 [Zakim]
sorry, r12a, I do not see a party named 'richard'
16:59:36 [aphillip]
present: Addison, Richard, Felix, John O, John K, Mati, Aharon, David
16:59:40 [r12a]
zakim, drop all
16:59:41 [Zakim]
sorry, r12a, I do not see a party named 'all'
16:59:46 [aphillip]
zakim, who is here?
16:59:47 [Zakim]
On the phone I see JohnO
16:59:47 [Zakim]
On IRC I see Najib-ma, Norbert, Zakim, RRSAgent, aphillip, fsasaki, r12a, fantasai, trackbot
16:59:59 [aphillip]
zakim, drop JohnO
16:59:59 [Zakim]
JohnO is being disconnected
17:00:00 [Zakim]
I18N_CoreWG()11:00AM has ended
17:00:00 [Zakim]
Attendees were aphillip, Richard.a, matial, fsasaki, +1.617.245.aaaa, JcK, +1.408.536.aabb, JohnO, Norbert, +44.141.888.aacc, +972.5.424.5aadd, David, aharon
17:13:57 [fsasaki]
fsasaki has left #i18n
17:25:24 [r12a]
rrsagent, draft minutes
17:25:24 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate r12a