16:16:06 <RRSAgent> RRSAgent has joined #css
16:16:06 <RRSAgent> logging to http://www.w3.org/2013/03/06-css-irc
16:16:12 <glazou> Zakim, this will be Style
16:16:12 <Zakim> ok, glazou; I see Style_CSS FP()12:00PM scheduled to start in 44 minutes
16:16:16 <glazou> RRSAgent, make logs public
16:16:20 <krit> krit has joined #css
16:26:43 <shepazu> shepazu has joined #css
16:32:11 <florian> florian has joined #css
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16:49:31 <Zakim> Style_CSS FP()12:00PM has now started
16:49:38 <Zakim> +[IPcaller]
16:49:52 <florian> Zakim, [IPcaller] has me
16:49:52 <Zakim> +florian; got it
16:52:15 <BradK> BradK has joined #CSS
16:52:15 <glazou> florian, a bit early no?
16:53:12 <florian> am I?
16:53:19 <glazou> :53 now
16:53:35 <dbaron> dbaron has joined #css
16:54:10 <florian> Sure, but nothing special to do until then. You made me worry that I had missed some Daylight saving time thing, and was an hour early.
16:54:16 <Ms2ger> Thou shalt not come early! ;)
16:54:34 <glazou> florian, eh no
16:54:41 <SimonSapin> florian: next week you’d be late
16:54:50 <SimonSapin> (I think)
16:55:58 <SteveZ> SteveZ has joined #css
16:56:49 <Zakim> + +1.415.832.aaaa
16:57:08 <krit> Zakim, aaaa is me
16:57:09 <Zakim> +krit; got it
16:57:10 <Zakim> +??P7
16:57:15 <glazou> Zakim, ??P7 is me
16:57:15 <Zakim> +glazou; got it
16:57:38 <florian> Can you hear me? just got a new mike.
16:58:44 <krit> florian: no
16:58:55 <glazou> florian, no
16:59:02 <krit> florian: just hear glazou
16:59:07 <glazou> caughing, yes
16:59:17 <Zakim> + +1.610.324.aabb
16:59:20 <oyvind> oyvind has joined #css
16:59:21 <Zakim> +Stearns
16:59:25 <glazou> my goodness, my tomato plant now has flowers...
16:59:30 <djackson> djackson has joined #css
16:59:41 <Ms2ger> florian, no
16:59:41 <Ms2ger> Oh, I dunno
16:59:46 <glazou> djackson, hi ; will you take minutes today ?
16:59:49 <Zakim> - +1.610.324.aabb
16:59:51 <Zakim> -[IPcaller]
16:59:56 <Zakim> +Bert
16:59:59 <Zakim> +SimonSapin
17:00:41 <dael> Hi! I'm still holding off on funding, so I'm going to listen one more time if that's okay.
17:00:45 <leif> leif has joined #css
17:00:48 <glazou> ok dael
17:00:50 <Zakim> + +1.650.766.aacc
17:00:57 <Zakim> + +1.610.324.aadd
17:01:03 <Zakim> +??P27
17:01:04 <BradK> Zakim, AAC is me
17:01:05 <Zakim> sorry, BradK, I do not recognize a party named 'AAC'
17:01:10 <florianr> florianr has joined #css
17:01:15 <Zakim> + +1.619.846.aaee
17:01:18 <dael> aadd is me
17:01:23 <zcorpan> zcorpan has joined #css
17:01:23 <glazou> Zakim, aacc is BradK
17:01:24 <Zakim> +BradK; got it
17:01:26 <BradK> Zakim, aacc is me
17:01:26 <Zakim> sorry, BradK, I do not recognize a party named 'aacc'
17:01:27 <Zakim> + +1.415.615.aaff
17:01:32 <Zakim> +plinss
17:01:40 <rhauck1> Zakim, aaff is me
17:01:41 <Zakim> +rhauck1; got it
17:01:43 <nvdbleek2> nvdbleek2 has joined #css
17:01:46 <Zakim> + +93192aagg
17:01:49 <BradK> Thank. Was autocorrectwd first time
17:01:50 <nvdbleek2> zakim, code?
17:01:53 <Zakim> the conference code is 78953 (tel:+1.617.761.6200 sip:zakim@voip.w3.org), nvdbleek2
17:01:55 <florianr> Damm, computer just died on me
17:01:57 <antonp> Zakim, aagg is me
17:01:57 <Zakim> +antonp; got it
17:02:14 <dael> zakin, aadd is me
17:02:16 <Zakim> + +47.23.69.aahh
17:02:17 <florianr> Trying to get back on something else than a phone
17:02:27 <dael> Zakim, aadd is me
17:02:27 <Zakim> +dael; got it
17:02:29 <plh> plh has joined #css
17:02:37 <Zakim> +Plh
17:02:42 <Zakim> +glenn
17:02:55 <glazou> Zakim, who is here?
17:02:55 <Zakim> On the phone I see krit, glazou, Stearns, Bert, SimonSapin, BradK, dael, ??P27, +1.619.846.aaee, rhauck1, plinss, antonp, +47.23.69.aahh, Plh, glenn
17:02:57 <Zakim> On IRC I see plh, nvdbleek2, zcorpan, florianr, leif, dael, oyvind, SteveZ, dbaron, BradK, rhauck1, antonp, shepazu, krit, RRSAgent, Zakim, glazou, darktears, Ms2ger, SimonSapin,
17:02:57 <Zakim> ... alexmog, ojan, slightlyoff, decadance, koji, sawrubh, isherman, ed
17:03:10 <TabAtkins__> TabAtkins__ has joined #css
17:03:19 <smfr> smfr has joined #css
17:03:23 <leif> Zakim, who is here?
17:03:23 <Zakim> On the phone I see krit, glazou, Stearns, Bert, SimonSapin, BradK, dael, ??P27, +1.619.846.aaee, rhauck1, plinss, antonp, +47.23.69.aahh, Plh, glenn
17:03:26 <Zakim> On IRC I see smfr, TabAtkins__, plh, nvdbleek2, zcorpan, florianr, leif, dael, oyvind, SteveZ, dbaron, BradK, rhauck1, antonp, shepazu, krit, RRSAgent, Zakim, glazou, darktears,
17:03:26 <Zakim> ... Ms2ger, SimonSapin, alexmog, ojan, slightlyoff, decadance, koji, sawrubh
17:03:29 <Zakim> +[IPcaller]
17:03:44 <koji> zakim, [ipcaller] is me
17:03:44 <Zakim> +koji; got it
17:03:52 <abucur> abucur has joined #css
17:03:54 <glazou> Zakim, aahh is leif
17:03:54 <Zakim> +leif; got it
17:03:57 <Zakim> +dbaron
17:04:03 <TabAtkins__> I'm having my carpet cleaned right now, so it's too loud to call in.  I'll follow along muted and respond in chat.
17:04:09 <Zakim> +smfr
17:04:12 <glazou> TabAtkins_, ROFL
17:04:22 <glazou> best excuse EVER here :-)
17:04:43 <smfr> smfr has changed the topic to: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-style/2013Mar/0110.html
17:04:49 <BradK> Is that some sort of euphemism?
17:05:03 <TabAtkins__> Yes.  It's a euphemism for getting my carpet cleaned.
17:05:44 <Zakim> + +1.832.797.aaii
17:05:50 <TabAtkins__> zakim, aaii is me
17:05:50 <Zakim> +TabAtkins__; got it
17:06:03 <Bert> Scribe: Bert
17:06:30 <Bert> glazou: Extra agenda: dbaron's comments on text deco.
17:06:36 <Zakim> +??P51
17:06:51 <nvdbleek2> zakim, I am ??P51
17:06:51 <Zakim> +nvdbleek2; got it
17:06:57 <Bert> ... Dbaron wants more time to review, so no dicsussion about CR today.
17:07:14 <nvdbleek2> zakim, mute me
17:07:14 <Zakim> nvdbleek2 should now be muted
17:07:28 <Bert> krit: filter effect
17:07:38 <Bert> glazou: OK, 5 mins
17:07:53 <Bert> SimonSapin: my issues?
17:08:00 <Zakim> +[IPcaller]
17:08:05 <Bert> glazou: Yes, but dirk's first
17:08:15 <Bert> Topic: filter effects
17:08:20 <krit> https://dvcs.w3.org/hg/FXTF/raw-file/default/filters/index.html
17:08:47 <Bert> krit: I did edits to clean up doc.
17:08:53 <Bert> ... added shader section
17:09:00 <Bert> ... would like new WD
17:09:00 <krit> https://dvcs.w3.org/hg/FXTF/raw-file/default/filters/index.html#FilterCSSImageValue
17:09:12 <Bert> dbaron: custom shaders section?
17:09:17 <Bert> krit: Yes, discussed it in SVG
17:09:25 <krit> https://dvcs.w3.org/hg/FXTF/raw-file/default/filters/index.html#custom-filter
17:09:27 <Bert> ... Generic filter fx
17:09:37 <Bert> ... Custom extended.
17:09:51 <Bert> ... @filter with descriptors.
17:09:52 <Zakim> -[IPcaller]
17:09:54 <tantek> tantek has joined #css
17:10:02 <Bert> ... Allows to ref diff extensions
17:10:11 <Bert> ... Cleaner syntax, easier.
17:10:32 <Bert> dbaron: Integration of shaders in CSS is much more experimental than the rest. rather not in this draft.
17:10:53 <Bert> krit: We have resolution to keep it in, from both WGs.
17:11:10 <Bert> smfr: Tend to agree with dbaron
17:11:31 <Bert> ... 'd be nice to publishe ddraft with what shipped already.
17:11:49 <Bert> dbaron: I think there was not musch discussion of it in CSS.
17:11:59 <Bert> glazou: decision can be changed.
17:12:08 <Bert> ... Shoul dmaybe be in next level.
17:12:19 <Bert> krit: We have an impl, so it is implementable.
17:12:24 <Zakim> +[Microsoft]
17:12:26 <Zakim> -??P27
17:12:37 <Bert> dbaron: other implementers say tnot happy with security implications.
17:12:44 <Bert> krit: We discussed it in Hamburg.
17:12:58 <Bert> ... Issues raised so far were all addressed.
17:13:05 <Bert> dbaron: How was the security addressed?
17:13:16 <Zakim> +fantasai
17:13:30 <Bert> krit: In last WD we already said [...]
17:13:44 <Rossen> Rossen has joined #css
17:14:05 <Bert> dbaron: I need my colleagues to review this, can't do it myself now.
17:14:08 <Zakim> +??P64
17:14:09 <Rossen> Zakim, Microsoft has me
17:14:09 <Zakim> +Rossen; got it
17:14:14 <Bert> glazou: So sounds we need more time.
17:14:30 <Bert> ... So everybody should review. And decision is postponed.
17:14:43 <Bert> dbaron: One more meta-point:
17:15:03 <Bert> ... Just because I didn't formnally object, doesn't mean I'm happy with it.
17:15:27 <Bert> ... Not happy that it is fine just because we discussed it.
17:15:48 <Bert> [missed]
17:15:58 <Bert> krit: Discuss on mlist?
17:16:07 <Bert> glazou: Yes.
17:16:11 <cabanier> cabanier has joined #css
17:16:18 <Bert> Topic: Timing function in reversed anim
17:16:20 <glazou> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-style/2013Feb/0524.html
17:16:37 <stearns> kris's point was not that it's fine because we discussed it, he was responding to the assertion that it has not been discussed.
17:16:44 <stearns> s/kris/krit/
17:16:59 <Bert> smfr: Follow-up to clarify to behavior of 'alternate'
17:17:08 <Bert> ... Didn't read the replies.
17:17:27 <Bert> dbaron: I think it wasn't about reverse, but about interrupt in th emiddle.
17:17:49 <Bert> TabAtkins__: No, this particualr is about reverse.
17:17:50 <Zakim> +Tantek
17:17:57 <tantek> Zakim, mute tantek
17:17:57 <Zakim> Tantek should now be muted
17:18:18 <Bert> glazou: So if I understand correctly, irt is not whart we discussed, but reverses the timing function.
17:18:40 <Bert> dbaron: E-mail says animations transitions. But transitions have no reverse.
17:19:10 <Bert> glazou: The message is about anim, seeing the context of the htread.
17:19:30 <Bert> smfr: Looks like implementers shgould lok at that thread.
17:19:46 <Zakim> +[Microsoft.a]
17:19:47 <arronei> zakim, microsoft has me
17:19:47 <Zakim> +arronei; got it
17:19:54 <Bert> glazou: Last time we discussed that reversing the function was probably better for the user.
17:20:08 <Bert> dbaron: For anim, that may well be what we do. Need to check.
17:20:20 <Bert> glazou: Other implementers?
17:20:57 <Bert> Rossen: Not sure, but dont object.
17:21:21 <Bert> glazou: waiting for msg from dbaron.
17:21:23 <leif> leif has joined #css
17:21:27 <Bert> dbaron: I'm OK with the change.
17:21:45 <Bert> glazou: OK, then we can resolve: anim reverses timing function.
17:22:04 <Bert> dbaron: Mention "when..."
17:22:05 <dbaron> proposal: when animation-direction reverses an animation, the timing function goes in reverse
17:22:13 <marakow> marakow has joined #css
17:22:21 <oyvind> I believe impls agree on this, including gecko
17:22:28 <dbaron> oyvind, yeah, I just checked
17:22:36 <smfr> oyvind: and IE?
17:22:37 <Bert> RESOLVED animations reverse timing function  when animation-direction reverses a  animation, the timing function goes in reverse
17:23:01 <krit> https://dvcs.w3.org/hg/FXTF/raw-file/default/matrix/index.html
17:23:01 <glazou> https://dvcs.w3.org/hg/FXTF/raw-file/tip/matrix/index.html
17:23:04 <dbaron> the bouncing ball in http://dbaron.org/log/20110419-animations demonstrates it
17:23:05 <oyvind> smfr: ah, don't know about that, don't have a working windows box atm
17:23:19 <Bert> Topic: Matrix interface
17:23:33 <Bert> krit: In SVG , there is a2D matrix interface
17:23:43 <Bert> ... SVG asked me to write a 3d interface.
17:23:52 <Bert> ... I used proposal from DeanJ
17:24:04 <krit> https://dvcs.w3.org/hg/FXTF/raw-file/default/matrix/index.html#webidl-ref
17:24:45 <Bert> ... Useful to have general matrix if for SVG and also for Canvas.
17:24:51 <Bert> ... Is it OK for CSS to work on that?
17:25:02 <Bert> dbaron: Where is this going to be used?
17:25:13 <lmclister> lmclister has joined #css
17:25:17 <Bert> krit: We don't have API for transforms yet, indeed.
17:25:28 <Bert> ... For now just a future approach. Cannot be used at th emoment.
17:25:31 <dbaron> dbaron: concern about previous api proposals was that the only way they hooked into CSS was into an api we'd deprecated
17:25:42 <Bert> ... Hopefull i n the futre there'll be a way in CSS
17:26:06 <Bert> glazou: I reviewed the doc. Would love to use. If only I had a simple if to generate a m,atrix from a string.
17:26:29 <Bert> smfr: Cannot do that in isolation. Need an element, to resolve units.
17:26:39 <Bert> krit: Always coord system of the element.
17:27:09 <florian> florian has joined #css
17:27:18 <Bert> glazou: My feeling: we start seeing new applications, handling complex matrices, complex graphics. This will be very useful for those apps.
17:27:33 <Bert> smfr: Yes, we see people using the webkit matrix
17:27:50 <Bert> ... Webkit has funky bahevior converting to string.
17:27:55 <Zakim> -SimonSapin
17:28:00 <Bert> ... And convert from string, throwing away units.
17:28:05 <Zakim> +[IPcaller]
17:28:08 <Bert> ... Not quite corretc, but often good enough.
17:28:16 <florian> Zakim, [IPcaller] has me
17:28:16 <Zakim> +florian; got it
17:28:23 <Bert> glazou: Handle this in FXTF?
17:28:28 <Bert> krit: Yes, that's the plan.
17:28:41 <Zakim> +SimonSapin
17:28:48 <Bert> smfr: We shoudl address how matrix interacts with style property.
17:28:55 <Bert> glazou: Only an ED at this time.
17:28:59 <Bert> ... We have time.
17:29:14 <Bert> krit: Again, also for SVG.
17:29:38 <Bert> glazou: Objections?
17:29:42 <leif1> leif1 has joined #css
17:29:52 <SimonSapin> (TabAtkins_: are there Syntax issues to discuss on the call?)
17:30:10 <hober> Zakim, aaee is me
17:30:11 <Zakim> +hober; got it
17:30:13 <Bert> RESOLVED: krit can continue writing on matrix API in FXTF
17:30:23 <Bert> Topic: Syntax issues
17:30:39 <Bert> SimonSapin: A few issues alrwady addressed.
17:30:46 <Bert> ... Some are only editorial.
17:30:59 <Bert> glazou: If we don't need time now, we can talk about page instead?
17:31:07 <Bert> Topic: Paged media issues
17:31:13 <SimonSapin>  I think we have consensus on this one now, just need a resolution:
17:31:13 <SimonSapin>    Making z-index not optional on page-margin boxes
17:31:13 <SimonSapin> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-style/2013Feb/0652.html
17:31:13 <SimonSapin> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-style/2013Mar/0008.html
17:31:35 <Bert> SimonSapin: Last week we discussed it.
17:31:49 <glenn> need to depart
17:31:49 <Bert> glazou: I'm fine with it.
17:32:07 <Zakim> -glenn
17:32:23 <Bert> SimonSapin: proposal is to make z-index not optionl on margin boxes.
17:32:29 <SimonSapin> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-style/2013Feb/0653.html
17:32:34 <Bert> RESOLVED: z-index is *not* optional on margin boxes.
17:32:58 <Bert> SimonSapin: Defautl stacking order of margin boxes currently udnefiend.
17:33:05 <Bert> ... I can jst pick something
17:33:11 <Bert> glazou: I'm fine with that.
17:33:24 <Bert> SimonSapin: I proposd start from top left and go clockwise.
17:33:36 <Bert> tab: Fine with any order.
17:33:42 <Bert> Bert: +1
17:33:45 <florian> I am fine with this
17:33:50 <Bert> Anton: +1
17:33:57 <SimonSapin> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-style/2013Mar/0054.html
17:34:05 <Bert> RESOLVED: default stacking starts with top lect corner and goes clockwise.
17:35:15 <stearns> one stacking context per margin box or one single stacking context for all of them?
17:35:30 <Bert> SimonSapin: stacking context is considered atomic, so not other pieces and go in between.
17:35:37 <glazou> Zakim, who is on the phone?
17:35:37 <Zakim> On the phone I see krit, glazou, Stearns, Bert, BradK, dael, hober, rhauck1, plinss, antonp, leif, Plh, koji, dbaron, smfr, TabAtkins__, nvdbleek2 (muted), [Microsoft], fantasai,
17:35:40 <Zakim> ... ??P64, Tantek (muted), [Microsoft.a], [IPcaller], SimonSapin
17:35:40 <Zakim> [Microsoft] has arronei
17:35:40 <Zakim> [IPcaller] has florian
17:35:58 <Bert> Bert: Are there any cases where you micgh want to insert in betwen?
17:36:11 <Bert> SimonSapin: I don't think so. Also implementation is easier.
17:36:16 <stearns> +1 from me
17:36:29 <Bert> Bert: no objection
17:36:36 <Bert> glazou: same
17:37:01 <Bert> RESOLVED: margin box establishes a stacking context.
17:37:15 <Bert> antonp: margin biox can have bg?
17:37:25 <Bert> ... So bg can obscure another box.
17:37:29 <Bert> SimonSapin: Yes
17:37:40 <Bert> glazou: That's why you have s-index to fix that.
17:37:55 <Bert> antonp: Is bag likely to occur?
17:38:07 <Bert> SimonSapin: Most of the time boxes will not overlap.
17:38:17 <Bert> ... Can't think of a use case for overlap.
17:38:21 <Bert> glazou: Agree
17:38:42 <Bert> SimonSapin: Issue about @page rules and media queries, but not enough time now.
17:38:50 <glazou> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-style/2013Feb/0352.html
17:38:51 <Bert> Topic: Format() in images
17:39:21 <Bert> TabAtkins__: Somebody requested image() to have not only fallback, but also info about type.
17:39:32 <Bert> ... Right now, UA has to download each image.
17:39:47 <Bert> ... Seems it can be solved similar to @font-face.
17:39:51 <antonp> s/bag/overlap  (several lines above)
17:39:54 <Zakim> -rhauck1
17:39:59 <Bert> ... But how exaxtly? MIME type seems not enough.
17:40:15 <Bert> ... E.g., PNG has variants with and without anim, not rteflected in MIME type.
17:40:37 <Bert> ... Thread conculded that MIME type was good start, and then add CSS-defiend keywords
17:40:52 <Bert> ... So keywords for transparency support and animation support.
17:41:14 <Bert> ... I want to add this to level 4.
17:41:26 <Bert> dbaron: A little worried about complexity.
17:41:33 <Bert> ... But OK with adding it for now.
17:41:45 <dbaron> dbaron: Seems like some of these things should be registered as mime-type parameters if they're important.
17:42:12 <Bert> TabAtkins__: Transitioning to new features from MIEM types can be added later.
17:42:18 <Bert> ... Not difficult
17:42:28 <Bert> glazou: Who maintains the list of values?
17:42:35 <tantek> on the csswg wiki!
17:42:51 <Bert> TabAtkins__: Not sure. Who: Could be us. Where: a spec, or somehwre else?
17:42:53 <tantek> only have :) - w3.org/wiki/CSS is probably better
17:42:55 <glazou> tantek, non normative unfortunately
17:43:01 <Bert> ... Something to point to is fine too.
17:43:18 <Bert> ... Whatever othe rpeople think is reasonable.
17:43:19 <tantek> glazou - just need a normative spec that declares it a particular wiki URL to be normative
17:43:27 <tantek> we've already done this in HTML5
17:43:35 <Bert> ... Only fine with trying to turn some of the new values into MIME parameters.
17:43:43 <tantek> which normatively references the microformats wiki page for existing rel values for the normative set of rel values :)
17:43:47 <Bert> glazou: Afraid of confrontation with IETF.
17:43:51 <tantek> LOL
17:44:05 <plh> q+
17:44:15 <tantek> seriously, just put it on the W3C wiki - IETF is too slow.
17:44:20 <glazou> Zakim, ack plh
17:44:20 <Zakim> I see no one on the speaker queue
17:44:25 <tantek> HTMLWG gave up on IETF for rel values for this reason.
17:44:38 <Bert> plh: I happen to be IETF liaison
17:44:45 <Bert> ... Happy to help the CSS WG.
17:45:03 <Bert> ... If previous interactions with IETF were not great, I can try to help with that, too.
17:45:18 <Bert> TabAtkins__: MIME type registration is horrible experience.
17:45:22 <tantek> tabatkins: "everyone I've ever talked to who's tried to register a mimetype with the IETF has had a horrible time"
17:45:35 <Bert> plh: Improvements have been made. On W3C side we also need to do so,mething.
17:46:08 <Bert> glazou: plh, would you take the idea to the IETYF that we start with a registry ourselves?
17:46:16 <glazou> s/IETYF/IETF
17:46:30 <Bert> plh: getting MIEM type is easy, just a bit of admin work. Most of that is my time.
17:46:48 <Bert> ... Takes about two month to get registrerd.
17:47:04 <Bert> glazou: OK, let's revised after we tried that.
17:47:57 <Bert> ACTION tab: with plh, to coordinate on issue of addition new MIME types for image types with IETF.
17:47:57 <trackbot> Created ACTION-548 - With plh, to coordinate on issue of addition new MIME types for image types with IETF. [on Tab Atkins Jr. - due 2013-03-13].
17:48:10 <glazou> https://lists.w3.org/Archives/Member/w3c-css-wg/2013JanMar/0248.html
17:48:26 <Bert> Topic: 'bikeshedding"
17:48:36 <tantek> LOL!
17:48:44 <Bert> fantasai: We'd like to get particpation on naming issues.
17:48:52 <Bert> ... Othe rpeople have better ideas than us.
17:49:00 <tantek> I'd suggest writing a blog post for each time you want input on naming
17:49:03 <Bert> ... But hose peoplke unlikely to join www-style.
17:49:07 <tantek> rather than a mailing list
17:49:14 <Bert> ... Another mailinglist may help.
17:49:22 <tantek> seriously, the creation of this mailing list will be the laughing stock of the W3C
17:49:43 <Bert> glazou: Sme people racted, and were opposed.
17:49:52 <Bert> ... I don't think it is a good signal to users.
17:49:53 <BradK> Naming should be done by those most familiar with the topics discussed: those following the www-style list.
17:50:00 <Bert> ... It is not disconnected from the tech work.
17:50:08 <Bert> TabAtkins__: Idea is that it would be lower traffic.
17:50:14 <tantek> I think such a new mailing list is a bad idea unless the idea is to embarrass the W3C.
17:50:26 <Bert> ... If it turns out as high traffic as www-style, that would be a pb.
17:50:55 <Bert> glazou: I suggest that people change the subject line to include [naming] as soon as the topic turns to naming.
17:51:12 <Bert> ... Im'm afraid a new mlist would be a very highg traffic one.
17:51:23 <Bert> ... I see no concensus at the moment.
17:51:36 <Bert> TabAtkins__: OK
17:51:45 <tantek> fantasai - if Twitter doesn't work for this, write CSSWG blog posts for this.
17:52:00 <Bert> glazou: tantek menbtioned blog. Maybe we can blog about naming policy.
17:52:20 <Bert> TabAtkins__: Idea to be able to subscribe to certain tags on the mailing list.
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17:53:25 <glazou> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-style/2013Mar/0095.html
17:53:38 <Bert> ACTION bert: to ask systeam if subscribing only to certain tags on www-style is possible
17:53:38 <trackbot> Created ACTION-549 - Ask systeam if subscribing only to certain tags on www-style is possible [on Bert Bos - due 2013-03-13].
17:53:49 <Bert> Topic: display: none
17:54:08 <glazou> oooooooold issue :-)
17:54:14 <glazou> neeeeeeeever discussed :-)
17:54:23 <Bert> TabAtkins__: jquery has show & hide methods, but they need to store the previous display value on hide, to be able to restore it.
17:54:38 <Bert> ... But if it starts out hidden, you have nbo previous state.
17:54:51 <Bert> ... The HIDDEN attrib in HTML is anbother issue:
17:55:20 <Bert> ... You can put the CSS rule in UA style or user style
17:55:30 <Bert> ... At important level or not.
17:55:50 <Bert> ... But interferes with transitions.
17:56:05 <Bert> ... My display draft splits display.
17:56:39 <Bert> ... It adds a third property to set to hidden independetly.
17:57:06 <Bert> ... The 'display' shorthand will still override it, so that doens't work.
17:57:23 <Bert> ... So it needs to be an indep property, not part of the display shorthand.
17:57:32 <Bert> ... And what shoul dbe its values?
17:57:36 <florian> the proposal for "render" made sense to me
17:57:48 <SimonSapin> +1 for render
17:58:00 <Bert> ... We're thinking of more values in the future, such as 'content'
17:58:17 <glazou> +1 for render too but that's not the major thing ehre
17:58:19 <glazou> here
17:58:22 <Bert> ... We don't know what to call the property.
17:58:39 <Bert> ... the ideas so far don't appeal to me.
17:58:43 <stearns> I like 'render'
17:59:08 <Bert> antonp: The interestimng thing is to pull it out of 'display'
17:59:34 <Bert> TabAtkins__: 'display: none' still suppresses th box if 'xyx' is 'normal'
18:00:03 <Bert> antonp: I'm interested in if this happens elsewhere, such as for font shorthand. What is the difference?
18:00:30 <Bert> TabAtkins__: Thist is a brand new longhand, so will take a while to get picked up.
18:00:45 <Bert> ... But display: none does a fundamentally differnet thing.
18:01:24 <Bert> ... "Flexness" of a box is indep from whether it is currently displayed.
18:01:41 <Zakim> -krit
18:01:47 <glazou> florian, not main issue, mail him please
18:01:52 <Bert> ... Especially useful with HTML HIDDEN attribute.
18:02:11 <glazou> thanks florian
18:02:25 <Bert> antonp: Backwards compat story. Interesting point.
18:02:26 <fantasai> generate-box
18:02:41 <Bert> SimonSapin: Florian mentions a proposal to call it 'render'
18:02:49 <florian> As for the proposal itself, I am in favor of it
18:02:53 <Bert> glazou: Name is not the main issue now.
18:03:02 <BradK> Opacity:0; pointer-events:none; would have the same effect, wouldn't it?
18:03:39 <Bert> SimonSapin: Paged media and viewport issue was defferred, but please contrinbute on the mlist. I need reactions.
18:03:56 <Bert> fantasai: I much time do people need to review text deco issues?
18:04:04 <Bert> dbaron: Next week is fine.
18:04:16 <Bert> ... The current request was just too late for me.
18:04:16 <florian> Simon, I agree with the general direction of your proposals. Will try to look into the details
18:04:25 <Zakim> -Plh
18:04:29 <Zakim> -Tantek
18:04:30 <Zakim> -Stearns
18:04:31 <Zakim> -[Microsoft.a]
18:04:31 <Zakim> -BradK
18:04:32 <Zakim> -hober
18:04:33 <Zakim> -glazou
18:04:34 <Zakim> -dbaron
18:04:34 <Zakim> -TabAtkins__
18:04:34 <Zakim> -dael
18:04:35 <Zakim> -antonp
18:04:36 <Zakim> -[IPcaller]
18:04:36 <Zakim> -koji
18:04:38 <Zakim> -[Microsoft]
18:04:43 <Zakim> -Bert
18:04:52 <Zakim> -smfr
18:04:55 <Zakim> -leif
18:04:58 <Zakim> -plinss
18:04:59 <Zakim> -SimonSapin
18:05:08 <Zakim> -fantasai
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18:10:54 <Zakim> disconnecting the lone participant, nvdbleek2, in Style_CSS FP()12:00PM
18:10:56 <Zakim> Style_CSS FP()12:00PM has ended
18:10:56 <Zakim> Attendees were florian, +1.415.832.aaaa, krit, glazou, +1.610.324.aabb, Stearns, Bert, SimonSapin, +1.650.766.aacc, +1.610.324.aadd, +1.619.846.aaee, BradK, +1.415.615.aaff,
18:10:57 <Zakim> ... plinss, rhauck1, +93192aagg, antonp, +47.23.69.aahh, dael, Plh, glenn, koji, leif, dbaron, smfr, +1.832.797.aaii, TabAtkins__, nvdbleek2, fantasai, Rossen, Tantek, [Microsoft],
18:10:57 <Zakim> ... arronei, hober
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