IRC log of css on 2013-03-06

Timestamps are in UTC.

16:16:06 [RRSAgent]
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16:16:06 [RRSAgent]
logging to
16:16:12 [glazou]
Zakim, this will be Style
16:16:12 [Zakim]
ok, glazou; I see Style_CSS FP()12:00PM scheduled to start in 44 minutes
16:16:16 [glazou]
RRSAgent, make logs public
16:16:20 [krit]
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16:26:43 [shepazu]
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16:32:11 [florian]
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16:40:04 [rhauck]
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16:41:40 [antonp]
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16:43:10 [rhauck1]
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16:49:31 [Zakim]
Style_CSS FP()12:00PM has now started
16:49:38 [Zakim]
16:49:52 [florian]
Zakim, [IPcaller] has me
16:49:52 [Zakim]
+florian; got it
16:52:15 [BradK]
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16:52:15 [glazou]
florian, a bit early no?
16:53:12 [florian]
am I?
16:53:19 [glazou]
:53 now
16:53:35 [dbaron]
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16:54:10 [florian]
Sure, but nothing special to do until then. You made me worry that I had missed some Daylight saving time thing, and was an hour early.
16:54:16 [Ms2ger]
Thou shalt not come early! ;)
16:54:34 [glazou]
florian, eh no
16:54:41 [SimonSapin]
florian: next week you’d be late
16:54:50 [SimonSapin]
(I think)
16:55:58 [SteveZ]
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16:56:49 [Zakim]
+ +1.415.832.aaaa
16:57:08 [krit]
Zakim, aaaa is me
16:57:09 [Zakim]
+krit; got it
16:57:10 [Zakim]
16:57:15 [glazou]
Zakim, ??P7 is me
16:57:15 [Zakim]
+glazou; got it
16:57:38 [florian]
Can you hear me? just got a new mike.
16:58:44 [krit]
florian: no
16:58:55 [glazou]
florian, no
16:59:02 [krit]
florian: just hear glazou
16:59:07 [glazou]
caughing, yes
16:59:17 [Zakim]
+ +1.610.324.aabb
16:59:20 [oyvind]
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16:59:21 [Zakim]
16:59:25 [glazou]
my goodness, my tomato plant now has flowers...
16:59:30 [djackson]
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16:59:41 [Ms2ger]
florian, no
16:59:41 [Ms2ger]
Oh, I dunno
16:59:46 [glazou]
djackson, hi ; will you take minutes today ?
16:59:49 [Zakim]
- +1.610.324.aabb
16:59:51 [Zakim]
16:59:56 [Zakim]
16:59:59 [Zakim]
17:00:41 [dael]
Hi! I'm still holding off on funding, so I'm going to listen one more time if that's okay.
17:00:45 [leif]
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17:00:48 [glazou]
ok dael
17:00:50 [Zakim]
+ +1.650.766.aacc
17:00:57 [Zakim]
+ +1.610.324.aadd
17:01:03 [Zakim]
17:01:04 [BradK]
Zakim, AAC is me
17:01:05 [Zakim]
sorry, BradK, I do not recognize a party named 'AAC'
17:01:10 [florianr]
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17:01:15 [Zakim]
+ +1.619.846.aaee
17:01:18 [dael]
aadd is me
17:01:23 [zcorpan]
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17:01:23 [glazou]
Zakim, aacc is BradK
17:01:24 [Zakim]
+BradK; got it
17:01:26 [BradK]
Zakim, aacc is me
17:01:26 [Zakim]
sorry, BradK, I do not recognize a party named 'aacc'
17:01:27 [Zakim]
+ +1.415.615.aaff
17:01:32 [Zakim]
17:01:40 [rhauck1]
Zakim, aaff is me
17:01:41 [Zakim]
+rhauck1; got it
17:01:43 [nvdbleek2]
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17:01:46 [Zakim]
+ +93192aagg
17:01:49 [BradK]
Thank. Was autocorrectwd first time
17:01:50 [nvdbleek2]
zakim, code?
17:01:53 [Zakim]
the conference code is 78953 (tel:+1.617.761.6200, nvdbleek2
17:01:55 [florianr]
Damm, computer just died on me
17:01:57 [antonp]
Zakim, aagg is me
17:01:57 [Zakim]
+antonp; got it
17:02:14 [dael]
zakin, aadd is me
17:02:16 [Zakim]
+ +47.23.69.aahh
17:02:17 [florianr]
Trying to get back on something else than a phone
17:02:27 [dael]
Zakim, aadd is me
17:02:27 [Zakim]
+dael; got it
17:02:29 [plh]
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17:02:37 [Zakim]
17:02:42 [Zakim]
17:02:55 [glazou]
Zakim, who is here?
17:02:55 [Zakim]
On the phone I see krit, glazou, Stearns, Bert, SimonSapin, BradK, dael, ??P27, +1.619.846.aaee, rhauck1, plinss, antonp, +47.23.69.aahh, Plh, glenn
17:02:57 [Zakim]
On IRC I see plh, nvdbleek2, zcorpan, florianr, leif, dael, oyvind, SteveZ, dbaron, BradK, rhauck1, antonp, shepazu, krit, RRSAgent, Zakim, glazou, darktears, Ms2ger, SimonSapin,
17:02:57 [Zakim]
... alexmog, ojan, slightlyoff, decadance, koji, sawrubh, isherman, ed
17:03:10 [TabAtkins__]
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17:03:19 [smfr]
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17:03:23 [leif]
Zakim, who is here?
17:03:23 [Zakim]
On the phone I see krit, glazou, Stearns, Bert, SimonSapin, BradK, dael, ??P27, +1.619.846.aaee, rhauck1, plinss, antonp, +47.23.69.aahh, Plh, glenn
17:03:26 [Zakim]
On IRC I see smfr, TabAtkins__, plh, nvdbleek2, zcorpan, florianr, leif, dael, oyvind, SteveZ, dbaron, BradK, rhauck1, antonp, shepazu, krit, RRSAgent, Zakim, glazou, darktears,
17:03:26 [Zakim]
... Ms2ger, SimonSapin, alexmog, ojan, slightlyoff, decadance, koji, sawrubh
17:03:29 [Zakim]
17:03:44 [koji]
zakim, [ipcaller] is me
17:03:44 [Zakim]
+koji; got it
17:03:52 [abucur]
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17:03:54 [glazou]
Zakim, aahh is leif
17:03:54 [Zakim]
+leif; got it
17:03:57 [Zakim]
17:04:03 [TabAtkins__]
I'm having my carpet cleaned right now, so it's too loud to call in. I'll follow along muted and respond in chat.
17:04:09 [Zakim]
17:04:12 [glazou]
TabAtkins_, ROFL
17:04:22 [glazou]
best excuse EVER here :-)
17:04:43 [smfr]
smfr has changed the topic to:
17:04:49 [BradK]
Is that some sort of euphemism?
17:05:03 [TabAtkins__]
Yes. It's a euphemism for getting my carpet cleaned.
17:05:44 [Zakim]
+ +1.832.797.aaii
17:05:50 [TabAtkins__]
zakim, aaii is me
17:05:50 [Zakim]
+TabAtkins__; got it
17:06:03 [Bert]
Scribe: Bert
17:06:30 [Bert]
glazou: Extra agenda: dbaron's comments on text deco.
17:06:36 [Zakim]
17:06:51 [nvdbleek2]
zakim, I am ??P51
17:06:51 [Zakim]
+nvdbleek2; got it
17:06:57 [Bert]
... Dbaron wants more time to review, so no dicsussion about CR today.
17:07:14 [nvdbleek2]
zakim, mute me
17:07:14 [Zakim]
nvdbleek2 should now be muted
17:07:28 [Bert]
krit: filter effect
17:07:38 [Bert]
glazou: OK, 5 mins
17:07:53 [Bert]
SimonSapin: my issues?
17:08:00 [Zakim]
17:08:05 [Bert]
glazou: Yes, but dirk's first
17:08:15 [Bert]
Topic: filter effects
17:08:20 [krit]
17:08:47 [Bert]
krit: I did edits to clean up doc.
17:08:53 [Bert]
... added shader section
17:09:00 [Bert]
... would like new WD
17:09:00 [krit]
17:09:12 [Bert]
dbaron: custom shaders section?
17:09:17 [Bert]
krit: Yes, discussed it in SVG
17:09:25 [krit]
17:09:27 [Bert]
... Generic filter fx
17:09:37 [Bert]
... Custom extended.
17:09:51 [Bert]
... @filter with descriptors.
17:09:52 [Zakim]
17:09:54 [tantek]
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17:10:02 [Bert]
... Allows to ref diff extensions
17:10:11 [Bert]
... Cleaner syntax, easier.
17:10:32 [Bert]
dbaron: Integration of shaders in CSS is much more experimental than the rest. rather not in this draft.
17:10:53 [Bert]
krit: We have resolution to keep it in, from both WGs.
17:11:10 [Bert]
smfr: Tend to agree with dbaron
17:11:31 [Bert]
... 'd be nice to publishe ddraft with what shipped already.
17:11:49 [Bert]
dbaron: I think there was not musch discussion of it in CSS.
17:11:59 [Bert]
glazou: decision can be changed.
17:12:08 [Bert]
... Shoul dmaybe be in next level.
17:12:19 [Bert]
krit: We have an impl, so it is implementable.
17:12:24 [Zakim]
17:12:26 [Zakim]
17:12:37 [Bert]
dbaron: other implementers say tnot happy with security implications.
17:12:44 [Bert]
krit: We discussed it in Hamburg.
17:12:58 [Bert]
... Issues raised so far were all addressed.
17:13:05 [Bert]
dbaron: How was the security addressed?
17:13:16 [Zakim]
17:13:30 [Bert]
krit: In last WD we already said [...]
17:13:44 [Rossen]
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17:14:05 [Bert]
dbaron: I need my colleagues to review this, can't do it myself now.
17:14:08 [Zakim]
17:14:09 [Rossen]
Zakim, Microsoft has me
17:14:09 [Zakim]
+Rossen; got it
17:14:14 [Bert]
glazou: So sounds we need more time.
17:14:30 [Bert]
... So everybody should review. And decision is postponed.
17:14:43 [Bert]
dbaron: One more meta-point:
17:15:03 [Bert]
... Just because I didn't formnally object, doesn't mean I'm happy with it.
17:15:27 [Bert]
... Not happy that it is fine just because we discussed it.
17:15:48 [Bert]
17:15:58 [Bert]
krit: Discuss on mlist?
17:16:07 [Bert]
glazou: Yes.
17:16:11 [cabanier]
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17:16:18 [Bert]
Topic: Timing function in reversed anim
17:16:20 [glazou]
17:16:37 [stearns]
kris's point was not that it's fine because we discussed it, he was responding to the assertion that it has not been discussed.
17:16:44 [stearns]
17:16:59 [Bert]
smfr: Follow-up to clarify to behavior of 'alternate'
17:17:08 [Bert]
... Didn't read the replies.
17:17:27 [Bert]
dbaron: I think it wasn't about reverse, but about interrupt in th emiddle.
17:17:49 [Bert]
TabAtkins__: No, this particualr is about reverse.
17:17:50 [Zakim]
17:17:57 [tantek]
Zakim, mute tantek
17:17:57 [Zakim]
Tantek should now be muted
17:18:18 [Bert]
glazou: So if I understand correctly, irt is not whart we discussed, but reverses the timing function.
17:18:40 [Bert]
dbaron: E-mail says animations transitions. But transitions have no reverse.
17:19:10 [Bert]
glazou: The message is about anim, seeing the context of the htread.
17:19:30 [Bert]
smfr: Looks like implementers shgould lok at that thread.
17:19:46 [Zakim]
17:19:47 [arronei]
zakim, microsoft has me
17:19:47 [Zakim]
+arronei; got it
17:19:54 [Bert]
glazou: Last time we discussed that reversing the function was probably better for the user.
17:20:08 [Bert]
dbaron: For anim, that may well be what we do. Need to check.
17:20:20 [Bert]
glazou: Other implementers?
17:20:57 [Bert]
Rossen: Not sure, but dont object.
17:21:21 [Bert]
glazou: waiting for msg from dbaron.
17:21:23 [leif]
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17:21:27 [Bert]
dbaron: I'm OK with the change.
17:21:45 [Bert]
glazou: OK, then we can resolve: anim reverses timing function.
17:22:04 [Bert]
dbaron: Mention "when..."
17:22:05 [dbaron]
proposal: when animation-direction reverses an animation, the timing function goes in reverse
17:22:13 [marakow]
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17:22:21 [oyvind]
I believe impls agree on this, including gecko
17:22:28 [dbaron]
oyvind, yeah, I just checked
17:22:36 [smfr]
oyvind: and IE?
17:22:37 [Bert]
RESOLVED animations reverse timing function when animation-direction reverses a animation, the timing function goes in reverse
17:23:01 [krit]
17:23:01 [glazou]
17:23:04 [dbaron]
the bouncing ball in demonstrates it
17:23:05 [oyvind]
smfr: ah, don't know about that, don't have a working windows box atm
17:23:19 [Bert]
Topic: Matrix interface
17:23:33 [Bert]
krit: In SVG , there is a2D matrix interface
17:23:43 [Bert]
... SVG asked me to write a 3d interface.
17:23:52 [Bert]
... I used proposal from DeanJ
17:24:04 [krit]
17:24:45 [Bert]
... Useful to have general matrix if for SVG and also for Canvas.
17:24:51 [Bert]
... Is it OK for CSS to work on that?
17:25:02 [Bert]
dbaron: Where is this going to be used?
17:25:13 [lmclister]
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17:25:17 [Bert]
krit: We don't have API for transforms yet, indeed.
17:25:28 [Bert]
... For now just a future approach. Cannot be used at th emoment.
17:25:31 [dbaron]
dbaron: concern about previous api proposals was that the only way they hooked into CSS was into an api we'd deprecated
17:25:42 [Bert]
... Hopefull i n the futre there'll be a way in CSS
17:26:06 [Bert]
glazou: I reviewed the doc. Would love to use. If only I had a simple if to generate a m,atrix from a string.
17:26:29 [Bert]
smfr: Cannot do that in isolation. Need an element, to resolve units.
17:26:39 [Bert]
krit: Always coord system of the element.
17:27:09 [florian]
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17:27:18 [Bert]
glazou: My feeling: we start seeing new applications, handling complex matrices, complex graphics. This will be very useful for those apps.
17:27:33 [Bert]
smfr: Yes, we see people using the webkit matrix
17:27:50 [Bert]
... Webkit has funky bahevior converting to string.
17:27:55 [Zakim]
17:28:00 [Bert]
... And convert from string, throwing away units.
17:28:05 [Zakim]
17:28:08 [Bert]
... Not quite corretc, but often good enough.
17:28:16 [florian]
Zakim, [IPcaller] has me
17:28:16 [Zakim]
+florian; got it
17:28:23 [Bert]
glazou: Handle this in FXTF?
17:28:28 [Bert]
krit: Yes, that's the plan.
17:28:41 [Zakim]
17:28:48 [Bert]
smfr: We shoudl address how matrix interacts with style property.
17:28:55 [Bert]
glazou: Only an ED at this time.
17:28:59 [Bert]
... We have time.
17:29:14 [Bert]
krit: Again, also for SVG.
17:29:38 [Bert]
glazou: Objections?
17:29:42 [leif1]
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17:29:52 [SimonSapin]
(TabAtkins_: are there Syntax issues to discuss on the call?)
17:30:10 [hober]
Zakim, aaee is me
17:30:11 [Zakim]
+hober; got it
17:30:13 [Bert]
RESOLVED: krit can continue writing on matrix API in FXTF
17:30:23 [Bert]
Topic: Syntax issues
17:30:39 [Bert]
SimonSapin: A few issues alrwady addressed.
17:30:46 [Bert]
... Some are only editorial.
17:30:59 [Bert]
glazou: If we don't need time now, we can talk about page instead?
17:31:07 [Bert]
Topic: Paged media issues
17:31:13 [SimonSapin]
I think we have consensus on this one now, just need a resolution:
17:31:13 [SimonSapin]
Making z-index not optional on page-margin boxes
17:31:13 [SimonSapin]
17:31:13 [SimonSapin]
17:31:35 [Bert]
SimonSapin: Last week we discussed it.
17:31:49 [glenn]
need to depart
17:31:49 [Bert]
glazou: I'm fine with it.
17:32:07 [Zakim]
17:32:23 [Bert]
SimonSapin: proposal is to make z-index not optionl on margin boxes.
17:32:29 [SimonSapin]
17:32:34 [Bert]
RESOLVED: z-index is *not* optional on margin boxes.
17:32:58 [Bert]
SimonSapin: Defautl stacking order of margin boxes currently udnefiend.
17:33:05 [Bert]
... I can jst pick something
17:33:11 [Bert]
glazou: I'm fine with that.
17:33:24 [Bert]
SimonSapin: I proposd start from top left and go clockwise.
17:33:36 [Bert]
tab: Fine with any order.
17:33:42 [Bert]
Bert: +1
17:33:45 [florian]
I am fine with this
17:33:50 [Bert]
Anton: +1
17:33:57 [SimonSapin]
17:34:05 [Bert]
RESOLVED: default stacking starts with top lect corner and goes clockwise.
17:35:15 [stearns]
one stacking context per margin box or one single stacking context for all of them?
17:35:30 [Bert]
SimonSapin: stacking context is considered atomic, so not other pieces and go in between.
17:35:37 [glazou]
Zakim, who is on the phone?
17:35:37 [Zakim]
On the phone I see krit, glazou, Stearns, Bert, BradK, dael, hober, rhauck1, plinss, antonp, leif, Plh, koji, dbaron, smfr, TabAtkins__, nvdbleek2 (muted), [Microsoft], fantasai,
17:35:40 [Zakim]
... ??P64, Tantek (muted), [Microsoft.a], [IPcaller], SimonSapin
17:35:40 [Zakim]
[Microsoft] has arronei
17:35:40 [Zakim]
[IPcaller] has florian
17:35:58 [Bert]
Bert: Are there any cases where you micgh want to insert in betwen?
17:36:11 [Bert]
SimonSapin: I don't think so. Also implementation is easier.
17:36:16 [stearns]
+1 from me
17:36:29 [Bert]
Bert: no objection
17:36:36 [Bert]
glazou: same
17:37:01 [Bert]
RESOLVED: margin box establishes a stacking context.
17:37:15 [Bert]
antonp: margin biox can have bg?
17:37:25 [Bert]
... So bg can obscure another box.
17:37:29 [Bert]
SimonSapin: Yes
17:37:40 [Bert]
glazou: That's why you have s-index to fix that.
17:37:55 [Bert]
antonp: Is bag likely to occur?
17:38:07 [Bert]
SimonSapin: Most of the time boxes will not overlap.
17:38:17 [Bert]
... Can't think of a use case for overlap.
17:38:21 [Bert]
glazou: Agree
17:38:42 [Bert]
SimonSapin: Issue about @page rules and media queries, but not enough time now.
17:38:50 [glazou]
17:38:51 [Bert]
Topic: Format() in images
17:39:21 [Bert]
TabAtkins__: Somebody requested image() to have not only fallback, but also info about type.
17:39:32 [Bert]
... Right now, UA has to download each image.
17:39:47 [Bert]
... Seems it can be solved similar to @font-face.
17:39:51 [antonp]
s/bag/overlap (several lines above)
17:39:54 [Zakim]
17:39:59 [Bert]
... But how exaxtly? MIME type seems not enough.
17:40:15 [Bert]
... E.g., PNG has variants with and without anim, not rteflected in MIME type.
17:40:37 [Bert]
... Thread conculded that MIME type was good start, and then add CSS-defiend keywords
17:40:52 [Bert]
... So keywords for transparency support and animation support.
17:41:14 [Bert]
... I want to add this to level 4.
17:41:26 [Bert]
dbaron: A little worried about complexity.
17:41:33 [Bert]
... But OK with adding it for now.
17:41:45 [dbaron]
dbaron: Seems like some of these things should be registered as mime-type parameters if they're important.
17:42:12 [Bert]
TabAtkins__: Transitioning to new features from MIEM types can be added later.
17:42:18 [Bert]
... Not difficult
17:42:28 [Bert]
glazou: Who maintains the list of values?
17:42:35 [tantek]
on the csswg wiki!
17:42:51 [Bert]
TabAtkins__: Not sure. Who: Could be us. Where: a spec, or somehwre else?
17:42:53 [tantek]
only have :) - is probably better
17:42:55 [glazou]
tantek, non normative unfortunately
17:43:01 [Bert]
... Something to point to is fine too.
17:43:18 [Bert]
... Whatever othe rpeople think is reasonable.
17:43:19 [tantek]
glazou - just need a normative spec that declares it a particular wiki URL to be normative
17:43:27 [tantek]
we've already done this in HTML5
17:43:35 [Bert]
... Only fine with trying to turn some of the new values into MIME parameters.
17:43:43 [tantek]
which normatively references the microformats wiki page for existing rel values for the normative set of rel values :)
17:43:47 [Bert]
glazou: Afraid of confrontation with IETF.
17:43:51 [tantek]
17:44:05 [plh]
17:44:15 [tantek]
seriously, just put it on the W3C wiki - IETF is too slow.
17:44:20 [glazou]
Zakim, ack plh
17:44:20 [Zakim]
I see no one on the speaker queue
17:44:25 [tantek]
HTMLWG gave up on IETF for rel values for this reason.
17:44:38 [Bert]
plh: I happen to be IETF liaison
17:44:45 [Bert]
... Happy to help the CSS WG.
17:45:03 [Bert]
... If previous interactions with IETF were not great, I can try to help with that, too.
17:45:18 [Bert]
TabAtkins__: MIME type registration is horrible experience.
17:45:22 [tantek]
tabatkins: "everyone I've ever talked to who's tried to register a mimetype with the IETF has had a horrible time"
17:45:35 [Bert]
plh: Improvements have been made. On W3C side we also need to do so,mething.
17:46:08 [Bert]
glazou: plh, would you take the idea to the IETYF that we start with a registry ourselves?
17:46:16 [glazou]
17:46:30 [Bert]
plh: getting MIEM type is easy, just a bit of admin work. Most of that is my time.
17:46:48 [Bert]
... Takes about two month to get registrerd.
17:47:04 [Bert]
glazou: OK, let's revised after we tried that.
17:47:57 [Bert]
ACTION tab: with plh, to coordinate on issue of addition new MIME types for image types with IETF.
17:47:57 [trackbot]
Created ACTION-548 - With plh, to coordinate on issue of addition new MIME types for image types with IETF. [on Tab Atkins Jr. - due 2013-03-13].
17:48:10 [glazou]
17:48:26 [Bert]
Topic: 'bikeshedding"
17:48:36 [tantek]
17:48:44 [Bert]
fantasai: We'd like to get particpation on naming issues.
17:48:52 [Bert]
... Othe rpeople have better ideas than us.
17:49:00 [tantek]
I'd suggest writing a blog post for each time you want input on naming
17:49:03 [Bert]
... But hose peoplke unlikely to join www-style.
17:49:07 [tantek]
rather than a mailing list
17:49:14 [Bert]
... Another mailinglist may help.
17:49:22 [tantek]
seriously, the creation of this mailing list will be the laughing stock of the W3C
17:49:43 [Bert]
glazou: Sme people racted, and were opposed.
17:49:52 [Bert]
... I don't think it is a good signal to users.
17:49:53 [BradK]
Naming should be done by those most familiar with the topics discussed: those following the www-style list.
17:50:00 [Bert]
... It is not disconnected from the tech work.
17:50:08 [Bert]
TabAtkins__: Idea is that it would be lower traffic.
17:50:14 [tantek]
I think such a new mailing list is a bad idea unless the idea is to embarrass the W3C.
17:50:26 [Bert]
... If it turns out as high traffic as www-style, that would be a pb.
17:50:55 [Bert]
glazou: I suggest that people change the subject line to include [naming] as soon as the topic turns to naming.
17:51:12 [Bert]
... Im'm afraid a new mlist would be a very highg traffic one.
17:51:23 [Bert]
... I see no concensus at the moment.
17:51:36 [Bert]
TabAtkins__: OK
17:51:45 [tantek]
fantasai - if Twitter doesn't work for this, write CSSWG blog posts for this.
17:52:00 [Bert]
glazou: tantek menbtioned blog. Maybe we can blog about naming policy.
17:52:20 [Bert]
TabAtkins__: Idea to be able to subscribe to certain tags on the mailing list.
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17:53:38 [Bert]
ACTION bert: to ask systeam if subscribing only to certain tags on www-style is possible
17:53:38 [trackbot]
Created ACTION-549 - Ask systeam if subscribing only to certain tags on www-style is possible [on Bert Bos - due 2013-03-13].
17:53:49 [Bert]
Topic: display: none
17:54:08 [glazou]
oooooooold issue :-)
17:54:14 [glazou]
neeeeeeeever discussed :-)
17:54:23 [Bert]
TabAtkins__: jquery has show & hide methods, but they need to store the previous display value on hide, to be able to restore it.
17:54:38 [Bert]
... But if it starts out hidden, you have nbo previous state.
17:54:51 [Bert]
... The HIDDEN attrib in HTML is anbother issue:
17:55:20 [Bert]
... You can put the CSS rule in UA style or user style
17:55:30 [Bert]
... At important level or not.
17:55:50 [Bert]
... But interferes with transitions.
17:56:05 [Bert]
... My display draft splits display.
17:56:39 [Bert]
... It adds a third property to set to hidden independetly.
17:57:06 [Bert]
... The 'display' shorthand will still override it, so that doens't work.
17:57:23 [Bert]
... So it needs to be an indep property, not part of the display shorthand.
17:57:32 [Bert]
... And what shoul dbe its values?
17:57:36 [florian]
the proposal for "render" made sense to me
17:57:48 [SimonSapin]
+1 for render
17:58:00 [Bert]
... We're thinking of more values in the future, such as 'content'
17:58:17 [glazou]
+1 for render too but that's not the major thing ehre
17:58:19 [glazou]
17:58:22 [Bert]
... We don't know what to call the property.
17:58:39 [Bert]
... the ideas so far don't appeal to me.
17:58:43 [stearns]
I like 'render'
17:59:08 [Bert]
antonp: The interestimng thing is to pull it out of 'display'
17:59:34 [Bert]
TabAtkins__: 'display: none' still suppresses th box if 'xyx' is 'normal'
18:00:03 [Bert]
antonp: I'm interested in if this happens elsewhere, such as for font shorthand. What is the difference?
18:00:30 [Bert]
TabAtkins__: Thist is a brand new longhand, so will take a while to get picked up.
18:00:45 [Bert]
... But display: none does a fundamentally differnet thing.
18:01:24 [Bert]
... "Flexness" of a box is indep from whether it is currently displayed.
18:01:41 [Zakim]
18:01:47 [glazou]
florian, not main issue, mail him please
18:01:52 [Bert]
... Especially useful with HTML HIDDEN attribute.
18:02:11 [glazou]
thanks florian
18:02:25 [Bert]
antonp: Backwards compat story. Interesting point.
18:02:26 [fantasai]
18:02:41 [Bert]
SimonSapin: Florian mentions a proposal to call it 'render'
18:02:49 [florian]
As for the proposal itself, I am in favor of it
18:02:53 [Bert]
glazou: Name is not the main issue now.
18:03:02 [BradK]
Opacity:0; pointer-events:none; would have the same effect, wouldn't it?
18:03:39 [Bert]
SimonSapin: Paged media and viewport issue was defferred, but please contrinbute on the mlist. I need reactions.
18:03:56 [Bert]
fantasai: I much time do people need to review text deco issues?
18:04:04 [Bert]
dbaron: Next week is fine.
18:04:16 [Bert]
... The current request was just too late for me.
18:04:16 [florian]
Simon, I agree with the general direction of your proposals. Will try to look into the details
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disconnecting the lone participant, nvdbleek2, in Style_CSS FP()12:00PM
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Style_CSS FP()12:00PM has ended
18:10:56 [Zakim]
Attendees were florian, +1.415.832.aaaa, krit, glazou, +1.610.324.aabb, Stearns, Bert, SimonSapin, +1.650.766.aacc, +1.610.324.aadd, +1.619.846.aaee, BradK, +1.415.615.aaff,
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... plinss, rhauck1, +93192aagg, antonp, +47.23.69.aahh, dael, Plh, glenn, koji, leif, dbaron, smfr, +1.832.797.aaii, TabAtkins__, nvdbleek2, fantasai, Rossen, Tantek, [Microsoft],
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... arronei, hober
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