15:34:24 <RRSAgent> RRSAgent has joined #i18n
15:34:24 <RRSAgent> logging to http://www.w3.org/2013/02/28-i18n-irc
15:34:28 <Zakim> Zakim has joined #i18n
15:34:37 <aphillip> trackbot, prepare teleconference
15:34:39 <trackbot> RRSAgent, make logs world
15:34:41 <trackbot> Zakim, this will be 4186
15:34:41 <Zakim> ok, trackbot; I see I18N_CoreWG()11:00AM scheduled to start in 26 minutes
15:34:42 <trackbot> Meeting: Internationalization Working Group Teleconference
15:34:42 <trackbot> Date: 28 February 2013
15:35:00 <aphillip> Agenda: https://lists.w3.org/Archives/Member/member-i18n-core/2013Feb/0022.html
15:35:21 <aphillip> agenda+ Publication of "Use Cases & Exploratory Approaches for Ruby Markup"
15:35:27 <aphillip> agenda+ Moving Forward the Bidi Change Proposal
15:35:42 <aphillip> agenda+ Charmod-Norm
15:35:52 <aphillip> Regrets: David
15:36:28 <aphillip> agenda+ review issues (246, encoding, etc.)
15:36:35 <aphillip> rrsagent, draft minutes
15:36:35 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2013/02/28-i18n-minutes.html aphillip
15:37:01 <aphillip> rrsagent, set logs world
15:37:17 <aphillip> Chair: Addison Phillips
15:51:44 <aphillip> zakim, who is here?
15:51:44 <Zakim> I18N_CoreWG()11:00AM has not yet started, aphillip
15:51:45 <Zakim> On IRC I see RRSAgent, aphillip, r12a, TabAtkins_, fantasai, trackbot
15:51:52 <aphillip> zakim, agenda?
15:51:52 <Zakim> I see 4 items remaining on the agenda:
15:51:53 <Zakim> 1. Publication of "Use Cases & Exploratory Approaches for Ruby Markup" [from aphillip]
15:51:53 <Zakim> 2. Moving Forward the Bidi Change Proposal [from aphillip]
15:51:53 <Zakim> 3. Charmod-Norm [from aphillip]
15:51:53 <Zakim> 4. review issues (246, encoding, etc.) [from aphillip]
15:59:30 <Zakim> I18N_CoreWG()11:00AM has now started
15:59:37 <Zakim> + +1.206.266.aaaa
15:59:51 <aphillip> zakim, +1.206.266.aaaa is me
15:59:51 <Zakim> +aphillip; got it
15:59:54 <r12a> zakim, dial richard
15:59:54 <Zakim> ok, r12a; the call is being made
15:59:55 <Zakim> +Richard
15:59:59 <aphillip> zakim, who is here?
15:59:59 <Zakim> On the phone I see aphillip, Richard (muted)
16:00:01 <Zakim> On IRC I see RRSAgent, aphillip, r12a, TabAtkins_, fantasai, trackbot
16:02:00 <Zakim> +Norbert
16:02:05 <aphillip> agenda+ The Question That  Won't Die: What Time is This Meeting At?
16:02:21 <Norbert> Norbert has joined #i18n
16:03:35 <matial> matial has joined #i18n
16:03:51 <r12a> zakim, who's here?
16:03:51 <Zakim> On the phone I see aphillip, Richard, Norbert
16:03:52 <Zakim> On IRC I see matial, Norbert, Zakim, RRSAgent, aphillip, r12a, TabAtkins_, fantasai, trackbot
16:04:54 <Zakim> +??P24
16:05:05 <matial> zakim, ??p24 is me
16:05:05 <Zakim> +matial; got it
16:05:36 <aphillip> zakim, agenda?
16:05:36 <Zakim> I see 5 items remaining on the agenda:
16:05:38 <Zakim> 1. Publication of "Use Cases & Exploratory Approaches for Ruby Markup" [from aphillip]
16:05:38 <Zakim> 2. Moving Forward the Bidi Change Proposal [from aphillip]
16:05:38 <Zakim> 3. Charmod-Norm [from aphillip]
16:05:38 <Zakim> 4. review issues (246, encoding, etc.) [from aphillip]
16:05:38 <Zakim> 5. The Question That  Won't Die: What Time is This Meeting At? [from aphillip]
16:05:40 <aphillip> Topic: Agenda
16:06:11 <John_C_Klensin> John_C_Klensin has joined #i18n
16:06:14 <aphillip> Topic: Action Items
16:06:16 <Najib-ma> Najib-ma has joined #i18N
16:06:46 <r12a> http://www.w3.org/International/track/actions/open
16:07:04 <Zakim> + +1.617.245.aabb
16:08:07 <Zakim> +fantasai
16:08:30 <aphillip> close ACTION-176
16:08:30 <trackbot> Closed ACTION-176 Ping anne about encoding spec.
16:08:53 <aphillip> close action-186
16:08:53 <trackbot> Closed ACTION-186 Add floating times to pipeline.
16:09:43 <aphillip> ACTION-187: contacted most browsers (all but mozilla, but have contact)
16:09:43 <trackbot> Notes added to ACTION-187 Provide darobin with contacts in browser vendors.
16:09:48 <aphillip> Regrets+ felix
16:09:51 <aphillip> zakim, who is here?
16:09:51 <Zakim> On the phone I see aphillip, Richard, Norbert, matial (muted), +1.617.245.aabb, fantasai
16:09:53 <Zakim> On IRC I see Najib-ma, John_C_Klensin, matial, Norbert, Zakim, RRSAgent, aphillip, r12a, TabAtkins_, fantasai, trackbot
16:10:08 <aphillip> zakim +1.617 is John_C_Klensin
16:10:43 <aphillip> close action-187
16:10:43 <trackbot> Closed ACTION-187 Provide darobin with contacts in browser vendors.
16:10:53 <aphillip> close action-188
16:10:53 <trackbot> Closed ACTION-188 Merge ruby documents for publication as a WG Note.
16:11:08 <aphillip> Topic: Info Share
16:11:13 <aphillip> ScribeNick: aphillip
16:11:27 <aphillip> richard: noticed Leif Havard Silli is now editor of polyglot
16:12:21 <Zakim> + +1.408.536.aacc
16:12:42 <r12a> zakim, who's here ?
16:12:42 <Zakim> On the phone I see aphillip, Richard, Norbert, matial (muted), +1.617.245.aabb, fantasai, +1.408.536.aacc
16:12:45 <Zakim> On IRC I see Najib-ma, John_C_Klensin, matial, Norbert, Zakim, RRSAgent, aphillip, r12a, TabAtkins_, fantasai, trackbot
16:13:14 <r12a> zakim, aacc is JohnO
16:13:14 <Zakim> +JohnO; got it
16:13:28 <r12a> zakim, aabb is JohnK
16:13:28 <Zakim> +JohnK; got it
16:13:38 <r12a> zakim, who's here ?
16:13:38 <Zakim> On the phone I see aphillip, Richard, Norbert, matial (muted), JohnK, fantasai, JohnO
16:13:40 <Zakim> On IRC I see Najib-ma, John_C_Klensin, matial, Norbert, Zakim, RRSAgent, aphillip, r12a, TabAtkins_, fantasai, trackbot
16:13:44 <aphillip> zakim, agenda?
16:13:44 <Zakim> I see 5 items remaining on the agenda:
16:13:46 <Zakim> 1. Publication of "Use Cases & Exploratory Approaches for Ruby Markup" [from aphillip]
16:13:46 <Zakim> 2. Moving Forward the Bidi Change Proposal [from aphillip]
16:13:46 <Zakim> 3. Charmod-Norm [from aphillip]
16:13:46 <Zakim> 4. review issues (246, encoding, etc.) [from aphillip]
16:13:46 <Zakim> 5. The Question That  Won't Die: What Time is This Meeting At? [from aphillip]
16:14:16 <aphillip> zakim, take up 1
16:14:16 <Zakim> I don't understand 'take up 1', aphillip
16:14:21 <joconner> joconner has joined #i18n
16:14:33 <aphillip> zakim, take up agendum 1
16:14:33 <Zakim> agendum 1. "Publication of "Use Cases & Exploratory Approaches for Ruby Markup"" taken up [from aphillip]
16:14:44 <jan> jan has joined #i18n
16:14:44 <r12a> http://www.w3.org/International/docs/ruby/
16:15:21 <aphillip> richard: put a lot of Leif's comments in (simplfying headings and such)
16:15:24 <aphillip> ... added a snapshot of other document I produced as appendix
16:15:31 <aphillip> ... other changes made are change marked
16:15:39 <aphillip> rrsagent, draft minutes
16:15:39 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2013/02/28-i18n-minutes.html aphillip
16:15:45 <aphillip> richard: also converted to html5
16:16:23 <Zakim> +[IPcaller]
16:16:54 <aphillip> zakim, [IPcaller] is jan
16:16:54 <Zakim> +jan; got it
16:17:35 <aphillip> chair: review for next week publication as note status
16:18:06 <aphillip> action: richard: announce ruby note will be published as note, last call for next week
16:18:06 <trackbot> Created ACTION-189 - Announce ruby note will be published as note, last call for next week [on Richard Ishida - due 2013-03-07].
16:18:53 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2013/02/28-i18n-minutes.html aphillip
16:19:40 <r12a> http://www.w3.org/International/notes/ruby-extension/
16:20:30 <aphillip> richard: elika may want to look at that... some embedding improvements?
16:21:15 <aphillip> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-i18n-cjk/2013JanMar/0058.html
16:22:41 <aphillip> addison: above thread about bopomofo support
16:24:46 <aphillip> richard: (describing various issues for zhuyin ruby and layout)
16:25:27 <aphillip> fantasai: concern that there are two styles
16:25:44 <aphillip> ... what happens when writing bopomofo just as plain text
16:25:50 <aphillip> ... not as ruby, just as the base text
16:25:59 <aphillip> ... what happens to the tone marks?
16:26:12 <r12a> http://rishida.net/blog/?p=494
16:26:16 <aphillip> richard: wrote the above
16:26:24 <aphillip> fantasai: kenny might know?
16:26:36 <aphillip> richard: talked to kenny. put that info into above?
16:26:45 <aphillip> ... only have horizontal example
16:27:01 <aphillip> ... tone mark following
16:27:17 <aphillip> ... not sure of vertical, might have seen something
16:27:19 <aphillip> ... very rare
16:27:36 <aphillip> ... mostly used with the Chinese characters
16:28:21 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2013/02/28-i18n-minutes.html aphillip
16:28:33 <aphillip> addison: any effect on note?
16:28:37 <aphillip> richard: not really??
16:29:02 <aphillip> fantasai: agree. issue is how to handle writing system in general or is this only when drawing ruby
16:29:13 <aphillip> ... in which case tie it into ruby specs
16:30:00 <aphillip> action: richard: write to contacts and cjk list about bopomofo handling as base and as ruby text
16:30:00 <trackbot> Created ACTION-190 - Write to contacts and cjk list about bopomofo handling as base and as ruby text [on Richard Ishida - due 2013-03-07].
16:30:09 <aphillip> zakim, agenda?
16:30:09 <Zakim> I see 5 items remaining on the agenda:
16:30:10 <Zakim> 1. Publication of "Use Cases & Exploratory Approaches for Ruby Markup" [from aphillip]
16:30:10 <Zakim> 2. Moving Forward the Bidi Change Proposal [from aphillip]
16:30:10 <Zakim> 3. Charmod-Norm [from aphillip]
16:30:10 <Zakim> 4. review issues (246, encoding, etc.) [from aphillip]
16:30:10 <Zakim> 5. The Question That  Won't Die: What Time is This Meeting At? [from aphillip]
16:30:22 <aphillip> zakim, take up agendum 5
16:30:22 <Zakim> agendum 5. "The Question That  Won't Die: What Time is This Meeting At?" taken up [from aphillip]
16:30:33 <aphillip> http://www.doodle.com/nzks8wivyfuk84mw
16:31:49 <aphillip> Regrets+ aharon
16:32:21 <aphillip> zakim, take up agendum 2
16:32:21 <Zakim> agendum 2. "Moving Forward the Bidi Change Proposal" taken up [from aphillip]
16:32:38 <aphillip> richard: had a discussion with aharon and elika and tab last night
16:32:52 <r12a> http://www.w3.org/International/wiki/Html-bidi-isolation
16:33:00 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2013/02/28-i18n-minutes.html aphillip
16:33:26 <aphillip> richard: tab sent me a writeup and more info that I integrated to wiki as "proposal B" for the time being
16:33:48 <aphillip> ... upshot basically is that new values for @dir may have benefits
16:33:54 <aphillip> ... in that 1) may be easier
16:34:07 <aphillip> ... 2) transition period would be small-ish
16:34:19 <aphillip> ... so what is proposed is instead of rli/lri
16:34:31 <aphillip> ... use an 'r' and an 'l' value
16:34:44 <aphillip> .. don't have to think about isolation
16:34:58 <aphillip> ... more familiar
16:35:06 <aphillip> ... and don't have to deprecate the @dir
16:35:10 <aphillip> ... easier to type
16:35:25 <aphillip> ... key thing is the transition period
16:36:21 <aphillip> addison: has some feedback at my IMUG talk.. think better to migrate @dir
16:37:01 <aphillip> johnK: a lot of people will get it wrong the other way and this is simple... less interop problems
16:37:31 <aphillip> richard: if you use @dir and @direction then you get fallback behavior in unaware browsers
16:37:44 <aphillip> ... but transition is short because implementation is straightforward
16:37:53 <aphillip> ... use CSS-hack mentioned previously
16:38:01 <aphillip> ... otherwise use <bdi> for inline
16:38:12 <aphillip> ... and this is described in our bidi article
16:39:03 <aphillip> addison: don't really like 'r' and 'l' as values, non-mnemonic
16:39:18 <aphillip> richard: key issue is transition period
16:40:15 <aphillip> addison: transition period may be somewhat long
16:42:14 <fantasai> discussion of including the appropriate style rules into reset stylesheets / polyfill libraries
16:42:45 <aphillip> richard: put out for discussion again
16:43:02 <aphillip> ... www-international or html or...?
16:43:20 <aphillip> addison: winter at least, html too?
16:44:03 <aphillip> fantasai: unsure of names?
16:44:25 <aphillip> addison: new tokens or new attribute is the question and we're back to tokens?
16:45:21 <aphillip> richard: bidi list, robin also
16:46:34 <aphillip> action: richard: request comments on wiki page about bidi change proposal to robin, bidi list, winter list, and html
16:46:34 <trackbot> Created ACTION-191 - Request comments on wiki page about bidi change proposal to robin, bidi list, winter list, and html [on Richard Ishida - due 2013-03-07].
16:46:41 <aphillip> zakim, agenda?
16:46:41 <Zakim> I see 5 items remaining on the agenda:
16:46:43 <Zakim> 1. Publication of "Use Cases & Exploratory Approaches for Ruby Markup" [from aphillip]
16:46:43 <Zakim> 2. Moving Forward the Bidi Change Proposal [from aphillip]
16:46:43 <Zakim> 3. Charmod-Norm [from aphillip]
16:46:43 <Zakim> 4. review issues (246, encoding, etc.) [from aphillip]
16:46:43 <Zakim> 5. The Question That  Won't Die: What Time is This Meeting At? [from aphillip]
16:47:46 <aphillip> johnk: no strong thoughts on 'r' or 'l', except that single characters are generally a bad idea because too short and error prone
16:49:11 <aphillip> zakim, take up agendum 3
16:49:11 <Zakim> agendum 3. "Charmod-Norm" taken up [from aphillip]
16:49:20 <aphillip> http://www.doodle.com/nzks8wivyfuk84mw
16:49:29 <aphillip> http://www.w3.org/International/wiki/CharmodNormProposal2013
16:50:05 <aphillip> fantasai: (aside) planning to wrap up comments on text-decoration
16:50:24 <aphillip> ... open issue about underlining style skip spaces... do we skip ethopic
16:51:06 <fantasai> ethiopic word space
16:51:09 <fantasai> tibetan tsek
16:51:15 <aphillip> action: addison: solicit from input Unicode on skipping spaces in css3 text-decoration specifically ethiopic word sep, etc.
16:51:15 <trackbot> Created ACTION-192 - Solicit from input Unicode on skipping spaces in css3 text-decoration specifically ethiopic word sep, etc. [on Addison Phillips - due 2013-03-07].
16:51:19 <fantasai> if spaces are skipped when underlining, should we skip those?
16:51:34 <aphillip> richard: underline can be broken by descender?
16:51:41 <aphillip> fantasai: yes, in particular style
16:52:08 <aphillip> richard: in like tibetan, descenders can be generated by combinations
16:52:22 <aphillip> fantasai: there is a skip-ink value to allow for that?
16:53:39 <aphillip> richard: but tibetan or khmer, you have some characters that conditionally poke through baseline
16:54:00 <aphillip> addison: happens on the rendered glyphs, not based on character
16:54:51 <aphillip> action: richard: supply CSS3 with pictures of skip-ink for tibetan or khmer
16:54:51 <trackbot> Created ACTION-193 - Supply CSS3 with pictures of skip-ink for tibetan or khmer [on Richard Ishida - due 2013-03-07].
16:55:12 <aphillip> zakim, take up agendum 3
16:55:12 <Zakim> agendum 3. "Charmod-Norm" taken up [from aphillip]
16:55:15 <aphillip> http://www.w3.org/International/wiki/CharmodNormProposal2013
16:55:39 <aphillip> http://inter-locale.com/w3c/charmod-norm-1.1-draft.html
16:56:13 <r12a> addison: started calling it charmod 1.1 - is that a good idea?
16:56:53 <r12a> ... history of character model as a whole is significantly about early n11n - this may point up the change in concepts
16:57:04 <r12a> johnO: might be good idea
16:57:36 <r12a> johnK: there are references all around, so if numbers are cheap let do it
16:58:18 <r12a> addison: will will change the number then - tbd in what way
16:58:29 <r12a> ... so far i kept most ot he examples and definitions intact
16:59:03 <r12a> ... partly because we have specs that have specified those (full-, etc-n11n)
16:59:15 <r12a> ... took out all the requirements and put in wiki
16:59:30 <r12a> ... sensing that the focus of the doc is string matching now
16:59:38 <r12a> ... split into 3 chunks:
16:59:49 <r12a> ... 1. how to do string matching and normalization
17:00:07 <r12a> ... 2. unicode normalization, for people who used these recommendations before
17:00:20 <r12a> ... 3. non-normalizing specifications, what you need to know
17:00:37 <r12a> ... there are a couple that are obsolete or don't fit neatly, like security issues, etc
17:01:16 <r12a> ... next step is to pull section 4 into the document and position as the main focus
17:01:28 <r12a> ... also bring in materials on case folding as part of that
17:03:10 <r12a> ... terse statements (dos and donts) are in the wiki for review
17:03:27 <r12a> ... key ones at the top, and others nearer the bottom
17:03:50 <r12a> norbert: so you want to move away from unicode n11n?
17:04:02 <Zakim> -jan
17:04:33 <r12a> adddison: you can't require it or depend on it for string matching, but the first req is that NFC makes life easier
17:04:46 <r12a> norbert: first should be not to assume that text is normalized
17:04:56 <r12a> ... but user text probably should be normalised
17:05:14 <r12a> ... such as the find command in a browser
17:05:39 <r12a> ... maybe thats a should rather than a may
17:05:51 <joconner> will have to drop off call, will stay on irc
17:06:03 <r12a> johnK: if you don't require for searches users will be crazy
17:06:24 <Zakim> -JohnO
17:06:28 <r12a> addison: but also it makes them crazy if it looks the same but their css selector doesn't work
17:06:41 <r12a> norbert: that's why i distinguish between user and code
17:08:14 <r12a> r12a: you should modify only in the actual matching process - don't break an author's text
17:08:46 <Najib-ma> Najib-ma has left #i18n
17:08:54 <Najib-ma> Najib-ma has joined #i18N
17:09:17 <matial> have to leave
17:09:47 <aphillip> addison: I'll update charmod norm reqs
17:09:50 <Zakim> -matial
17:09:56 <aphillip> norbert: annotate what C I and S mean in the wiki
17:10:04 <aphillip> Topic: AOB?
17:10:15 <r12a> norbert: add a note about what [C] [S] and [I] mean in the wiki
17:10:42 <aphillip> Topic: UTF-8 requirement
17:13:31 <r12a> zakim, who's here ?
17:13:31 <Zakim> On the phone I see aphillip, Richard, Norbert, JohnK, fantasai
17:13:32 <Zakim> On IRC I see Najib-ma, jan, joconner, John_C_Klensin, Norbert, Zakim, RRSAgent, aphillip, r12a, TabAtkins_, fantasai, trackbot
17:13:52 <jan> I had t odrop off the call to attend another one
17:16:31 <Zakim> -fantasai
17:16:33 <aphillip> norbert: propose Unicode must be supported (other encodings may be supported)
17:16:54 <aphillip> addison: will make topic for next week (lost audience)
17:17:13 <Zakim> -aphillip
17:17:15 <Zakim> -JohnK
17:17:19 <Zakim> -Norbert
17:17:20 <aphillip> rrsagent, make minutes
17:17:20 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2013/02/28-i18n-minutes.html aphillip
17:17:25 <r12a> zakim, drop richard
17:17:25 <Zakim> Richard is being disconnected
17:17:26 <Zakim> I18N_CoreWG()11:00AM has ended
17:17:26 <Zakim> Attendees were aphillip, Richard, Norbert, matial, +1.617.245.aabb, fantasai, +1.408.536.aacc, JohnO, JohnK, jan
17:18:03 <aphillip> Present: Addison, Fantasai, Richard, Norbert, John K, John O, Jan, Mati
17:18:18 <aphillip> zakim, bye
17:18:18 <Zakim> Zakim has left #i18n
17:18:22 <aphillip> rrsagent, make minutes
17:18:22 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2013/02/28-i18n-minutes.html aphillip
17:19:04 <aphillip> rrsagent, make minutes
17:19:04 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2013/02/28-i18n-minutes.html aphillip
18:32:12 <TabAtkins_> /wc
18:32:13 <TabAtkins_> TabAtkins_ has left #i18n