15:58:56 RRSAgent has joined #rdf-wg 15:58:56 logging to http://www.w3.org/2013/02/27-rdf-wg-irc 15:58:57 trackbot, start meeting 15:58:58 RRSAgent, make logs world 15:59:00 Zakim, this will be 73394 15:59:00 ok, trackbot; I see SW_RDFWG()11:00AM scheduled to start in 1 minute 15:59:01 Meeting: RDF Working Group Teleconference 15:59:01 Date: 27 February 2013 15:59:03 zakim, who is here? 15:59:03 I notice SW_RDFWG()11:00AM has restarted 15:59:03 RRSAgent, make logs world 15:59:04 On the phone I see +1.408.530.aaaa, Guus 15:59:04 On IRC I see RRSAgent, Zakim, AndyS, pfps, gkellogg, Guus, TallTed, SteveH, ivan, gavinc_, manu1, manu, yvesr, mischat, trackbot, sandro, ericP 15:59:05 Zakim, this will be 73394 15:59:06 Meeting: RDF Working Group Teleconference 15:59:06 Date: 27 February 2013 15:59:06 ok, trackbot; I see SW_RDFWG()11:00AM scheduled to start in 1 minute 15:59:10 Partial regrets - I can only attend for about 45 mins. 15:59:23 zakim, aaaa is me 15:59:23 sorry, pfps, I do not recognize a party named 'aaaa' 15:59:36 zakim, who is on the phone? 15:59:36 I notice SW_RDFWG()11:00AM has restarted 15:59:38 On the phone I see +1.408.530.aaaa, Guus 15:59:52 zakim, aaaa is me 15:59:52 +pfps; got it 16:00:01 +??P2 16:00:05 zakim, I am ??P2 16:00:05 +gkellogg; got it 16:00:09 +??P3 16:00:19 Zakim, ??p3 is me 16:00:19 +SteveH; got it 16:00:36 +OpenLink_Software 16:00:49 Zakim, OpenLink_Software is temporarily me 16:00:50 +TallTed; got it 16:00:52 Zakim, mute me 16:00:52 TallTed should now be muted 16:00:59 TallTed has changed the topic to: RDF WG -- http://www.w3.org/2011/rdf-wg/ -- current agenda http://www.w3.org/2011/rdf-wg/wiki/Meetings:Telecon2013.02.27 16:01:00 +??P6 16:01:05 Zakim, ??P6 is me 16:01:05 +yvesr; got it 16:01:21 AZ has joined #rdf-wg 16:02:16 zakim, who is here? 16:02:16 On the phone I see pfps, Guus, gkellogg, SteveH, TallTed (muted), yvesr 16:02:18 On IRC I see AZ, RRSAgent, Zakim, AndyS, pfps, gkellogg, Guus, TallTed, SteveH, ivan, gavinc_, manu1, manu, yvesr, mischat, trackbot, sandro, ericP 16:02:21 +GavinC 16:02:43 + +081165aabb 16:03:02 Zakim, aabb is me 16:03:02 +AZ; got it 16:03:24 +[IPcaller] 16:03:31 zakim, IPCaller is me 16:03:31 +AndyS; got it 16:03:47 Arnaud has joined #rdf-wg 16:04:20 zakim, dial ivan-voip 16:04:20 ok, ivan; the call is being made 16:04:21 +Ivan 16:04:27 +Arnaud 16:04:33 zakim, mute me 16:04:33 Ivan should now be muted 16:05:03 zakim, pick a scribe 16:05:03 Not knowing who is chairing or who scribed recently, I propose AZ 16:05:24 markus has joined #rdf-wg 16:05:45 scribe: AZ 16:06:26 Topic: Admin 16:07:13 +??P8 16:07:18 zakim, ??P8 is me 16:07:18 +markus; got it 16:07:20 gavinc_: there should be a page about the CR 16:07:40 PatH has joined #rdf-wg 16:07:42 +Sandro 16:07:55 gavinc_: before Turtle being published we agreed to produce a document about thinigs done in Last Call? 16:09:20 Guus: we can close the comments by internalization group 16:09:35 Guus: Ivan proposed to write a page like the OWL page 16:09:49 Souri has joined #RDF-WG 16:09:55 having a little trouble calling in, working on it. 16:10:07 sandro: in RDF, documents are pretty much self standing 16:10:33 Turtle, TriG, and N-Triples would seem to be more closely related. 16:10:34 +??P14 16:10:41 Guus: let us archive all comments being done since CR 16:10:45 Yeah, my thoughts as well gkellogg 16:10:55 given I have to update all three of those 16:11:01 ivan, unmute me 16:11:07 zakim, P14 is me 16:11:07 sorry, Souri, I do not recognize a party named 'P14' 16:11:14 zakim, ??P14 is me 16:11:15 +Souri; got it 16:11:31 gavinc_: I'll finish a page about the comments 16:11:59 q+ on test suite coverage 16:12:04 gavinc_: we have to publish the test cases 16:12:11 +1 to gkellogg -- and NQuads. 16:12:17 sandro: they should be linked from the document 16:12:31 Conformance Report: https://dvcs.w3.org/hg/rdf/raw-file/default/rdf-turtle/reports/index.html 16:12:34 looks like I am going to have to be restricted to IRC until my phone carrier comes back :-( 16:12:35 ...: and we have to list the implementations 16:13:31 shouldn't we note this error and fix it at REC? 16:14:05 AndyS: their could be a formal publication of the test suite 16:14:25 ... W3C would use the test suite licence 16:15:01 (sorry did not get the end) 16:15:17 google brings me to http://www.w3.org/2011/rdf-wg/wiki/Turtle_Test_Suite 16:15:47 http://www.w3.org/Consortium/Legal/2008/04-testsuite-license.html 16:16:10 AndyS: they are not complaininng of tests suite licence, but they complain about the Apacche Licence attached to it 16:17:24 ... I could change this as a copywriter 16:17:34 I'd say the main issue is the lack of publication of the test suite 16:18:34 sandro: the page about test suite should have link to the suite 16:20:12 sandro: I can update the submission to point to the the suite 16:20:38 http://dvcs.w3.org/hg/rdf/file/default/rdf-turtle/tests-ttl 16:20:56 Guus: in the extension request the link to test suite was the one posted 16:21:12 https://dvcs.w3.org/hg/rdf/raw-file/default/rdf-turtle/reports/index.html 16:21:49 Guus: who would like to take an action to do this 16:22:02 gavinc: I can do this 16:22:44 gavinc: I can also resolve the licence issue 16:23:39 gavinc: we can set up a mercurial directory and put a tag there 16:24:23 AndyS: sandro, could you check the W3C process for the test suite 16:25:05 List of dajobe's current Turtle tests, including test-31 through test-38: https://github.com/dajobe/raptor/tree/master/tests/turtle 16:25:05 action: sandro to learn about the w3c test suite license 16:25:05 Created ACTION-232 - Learn about the w3c test suite license [on Sandro Hawke - due 2013-03-06]. 16:25:15 ACTION Gavin to publish the consolidated test suite 16:25:15 Created ACTION-233 - Publish the consolidated test suite [on Gavin Carothers - due 2013-03-06]. 16:25:38 gavinc: all tests are under W3C license and ??? licence 16:25:43 http://www.w3.org/2004/10/27-testcases 16:25:51 s/???/3-clause BSD/ 16:25:59 ??? == W3C test suite license 16:26:46 +PatH 16:27:15 https://github.com/dajobe/raptor/blob/master/tests/turtle/test-30.ttl 16:28:16 topic:Semantics 16:28:17 btw #turtle exists ;) 16:28:46 gregg - there was renumbering old 30 is new 27 and is there 16:28:47 Guus: there are several emails on the first editor's draft for semantics 16:28:54 ... from pfps and Path 16:28:58 andys: cool, thanks 16:29:27 greeg - blame automated test suite writing. 16:29:35 PatH: I think all the issues can be resolved wihtout spending much telecon time 16:29:39 s/greeg/gregg/ 16:29:54 pfps: we have to resovle the issues on ill-typed literals do not denote anymore 16:30:24 http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rdf-wg/2013Feb/0233.html 16:32:03 PatH: it's a substantial change to semantics and made in reaction to Richard's request 16:32:21 oops, looks like i missed the test suite topic 16:32:28 can anyone confirm/deny that? 16:32:38 ... who believe that a graph that has ill-typed literals should not be consistent 16:33:01 ... the proposal makes all triples with an ill-typed literal false 16:33:35 this change has been discussed extensively in the past, as well 16:33:43 ... I haven't find arguments really against it 16:34:10 PROPOSE: I propose closing Issue 109 as described by Pat back in November in http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rdf-wg/2012Nov/0195.html The proposal is, roughly, to make ill-typed literals not denote anything, which (due to the very picky details of the wording of the rest of the semantics) means that any triple with an ill-typed literal is false (and not ill-typed itself, which you might have thought). 16:34:21 +1 16:34:23 +1 16:34:24 +1 16:34:26 +1 16:34:28 +1 16:34:28 +1 16:34:29 +1 16:34:29 +0.999999 16:34:30 +1 16:34:32 +1 16:34:33 +1 16:34:33 +1 16:34:43 0 16:34:47 RESOLVED: propose closing Issue 109 as described by Pat back in November in http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rdf-wg/2012Nov/0195.html The proposal is, roughly, to make ill-typed literals not denote anything, which (due to the very picky details of the wording of the rest of the semantics) means that any triple with an ill-typed literal is false (and not ill-typed itself, which you might have thought). 16:35:35 pfps: which datatypes are required in RDF implementation 16:35:52 q+ 16:35:59 q- 16:36:00 +1 to RDF XMLLiteral being optional... I swear we resolved that? 16:36:12 +1 I think so, too. 16:36:17 ... are you SURE we don't? 16:36:37 ... in particular XMLLiteral? 16:37:22 http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rdf-wg/2012May/0198.html 16:37:36 issue-13? 16:37:36 ISSUE-13 -- Review RDF XML Literals -- closed 16:37:36 http://www.w3.org/2011/rdf-wg/track/issues/13 16:37:50 ... can someone fix the "list of resolutions" 16:37:53 q- 16:38:07 http://www.w3.org/2011/rdf-wg/track/issues/closed is a good place to start looking for resolutions :) 16:38:33 gavinc: HTML is optional too (ISSUE 33) 16:38:49 http://www.w3.org/2011/rdf-wg/track/issues/63 16:39:02 s/63/33/ 16:39:11 s/33/63/ 16:39:42 ... the last issue is rdf:langString 16:39:59 s/.../pfps/ 16:40:44 PatH: I think the idea was a datatype with empty lexical-to-value mapping 16:41:26 Also, see http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rdf-wg/2012Nov/0071.html 16:41:28 ... the goal is to have a type for all literals but not force rdf:langString to be a proper datatype 16:41:39 pfps: this should be fixed in Concepts 16:41:58 This is related to ISSUE-94 16:42:00 ISSUE-94? 16:42:00 ISSUE-94 -- Definition of literals does not include language-tagged strings properly -- closed 16:42:00 http://www.w3.org/2011/rdf-wg/track/issues/94 16:42:25 pfps: everything else in the semantics can be seen just as bugs 16:42:41 q+ 16:42:45 zakim, who is here? 16:42:45 On the phone I see pfps, Guus, gkellogg, SteveH, TallTed (muted), yvesr, GavinC, AZ, AndyS, Ivan (muted), Arnaud (muted), markus, Sandro, Souri, PatH 16:42:47 On IRC I see Souri, PatH, markus, Arnaud, AZ, RRSAgent, Zakim, AndyS, pfps, gkellogg, Guus, TallTed, SteveH, ivan, gavinc, manu1, manu, yvesr, mischat, trackbot, sandro, ericP 16:43:10 -AndyS 16:43:47 pfps: it just requires minor edits to make it a FPWD 16:44:13 Guus: 16:44:29 -Guus 16:44:46 reviews can be done befpre html edits 16:44:59 review volunteers? at least two needed 16:45:26 can't be me 16:45:31 zakim, unmute me 16:45:31 Ivan should no longer be muted 16:45:45 I suggest Richard, even though he is not on the call - he cares about this 16:46:00 +Guus 16:46:58 Guus: we need reviewers for the document, even before the edits 16:47:03 AZ: I can review it 16:47:18 pfps: I would like Richard to do it 16:47:32 ACTION Guus to ask Richard to review Semantics 16:47:32 Created ACTION-234 - Ask Richard to review Semantics [on Guus Schreiber - due 2013-03-06]. 16:47:44 PatH: there is a section that is missing about the inference rules 16:47:57 the inference rules are informative, not normative 16:48:09 ivan: what's going on with the rules? 16:48:21 ... in which document do they go 16:48:53 PatH: we can put the rules in an informative section in Semantics 16:49:01 I vote for fewer documents 16:49:15 why are the rules needed for concepts? 16:49:31 ACTION AZ to review RDF 1.1 Semantics 16:49:32 Created ACTION-235 - Review RDF 1.1 Semantics [on Antoine Zimmermann - due 2013-03-06]. 16:49:49 Guus: we really need to go to LC for Concepts 16:49:58 ... for this we need a FPWD for Semantics 16:50:30 ivan: our extension request said we would have Concepts in LC by 1st march 16:50:56 PatH: I can do the changes before next telecon 16:51:49 Guus: in the mean time we can talk about Concepts to prepare it for LC 16:52:43 Reviewing period Semantics draft: 6-13 Mar 16:53:33 q+ 16:53:35 PatH: there is a debate about D-entailemnt whether D should be seen as a datatype map 16:53:55 ... I see a solution that requires a small change to RDF Concepts 16:54:00 q- 16:54:08 Guus: let us get this to the agenda of next week 16:54:32 ack pfps 16:54:55 pfps: I believe Pat's solution is not viable 16:55:22 PatH: I know how to fix this, I have to make it more precise 16:55:34 +1 pfps 16:55:44 my problem is with a normative part of RDF Semantics referring to "web conventions" 16:56:10 topic:Concepts 16:56:21 Guus: there is an issue on bnode definition 16:56:50 PatH: Concepts sould define the notion of scope 16:57:01 ... scope of bnodes 16:59:43 16:59:59 ACTION Guus put spec of scope bnodes in Concepts on agenda for 6 Mar 16:59:59 Created ACTION-236 - Put spec of scope bnodes in Concepts on agenda for 6 Mar [on Guus Schreiber - due 2013-03-06]. 17:00:42 I can review Concepts, but I will reiterate my concerns that have not yet been addressed. 17:00:43 Guus: we need reviewers for the LC draft 17:01:14 There has been push back on some of them. 17:01:15 I can review too, to be sure my concerns have been addressed 17:01:23 i can review concepts. 17:02:01 I'll be on vacation 17:02:21 Zakim, unmute me 17:02:21 TallTed should no longer be muted 17:02:51 Zakim, mute me 17:02:51 TallTed should now be muted 17:03:06 Peter and Ted are reviewer candidates 17:03:25 topic:JSON-LD 17:03:59 Guus: we must find reviewers for this one too 17:04:00 http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rdf-wg/2013Feb/0189.html 17:05:15 PatH: I'll volunteer 17:05:20 sandro: I'll volunteer too 17:06:26 PatH: in fact, if it's now, I'll have to withdraw sorry 17:06:57 Guus: let us ask AndyS if he'd like to revieww it 17:07:06 ACTION Guus to ask Andy to review JSPN-LD syntax doc 17:07:06 Created ACTION-237 - Ask Andy to review JSPN-LD syntax doc [on Guus Schreiber - due 2013-03-06]. 17:07:26 s/JSPN-LD/JSON-LD/ 17:08:23 -Ivan 17:08:26 gkellogg: we have work to do on the API 17:08:28 -Arnaud 17:08:29 -Sandro 17:08:29 -PatH 17:08:31 bye 17:08:32 -markus 17:08:32 -TallTed 17:08:33 -gkellogg 17:08:34 -GavinC 17:08:34 -yvesr 17:08:35 bye 17:08:36 -SteveH 17:08:40 -AZ 17:08:41 -pfps 17:08:41 -Guus 17:08:48 -Souri 17:08:50 SW_RDFWG()11:00AM has ended 17:08:50 Attendees were +1.408.530.aaaa, Guus, pfps, gkellogg, SteveH, TallTed, yvesr, GavinC, +081165aabb, AZ, AndyS, Ivan, Arnaud, markus, Sandro, Souri, PatH 17:09:41 Guus has joined #rdf-wg 17:09:50 trackbot, end meeting 17:09:50 Zakim, list attendees 17:09:50 sorry, trackbot, I don't know what conference this is 17:09:58 RRSAgent, please draft minutes 17:09:58 I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2013/02/27-rdf-wg-minutes.html trackbot 17:09:59 RRSAgent, bye 17:09:59 I see 1 open action item saved in http://www.w3.org/2013/02/27-rdf-wg-actions.rdf : 17:09:59 ACTION: sandro to learn about the w3c test suite license [1] 17:09:59 recorded in http://www.w3.org/2013/02/27-rdf-wg-irc#T16-25-05-1