16:17:38 RRSAgent has joined #css 16:17:38 logging to http://www.w3.org/2013/02/27-css-irc 16:17:44 Zakim, this will be Style 16:17:44 ok, glazou; I see Style_CSS FP()12:00PM scheduled to start in 43 minutes 16:17:50 RRSAgent, make logs public 16:22:32 yep :-) hi molly 16:22:49 well happy happy m'dear. Hope it's a great year 16:22:51 my parents tried to hit the 29th of feb but missed it 16:22:55 thanks molly :-) 16:24:26 28th or 1st? 16:24:55 25 16:25:11 ah.. my wife's is today 16:25:31 tell her happy b'day from me then :-D 16:25:45 shanestephens has joined #css 16:26:43 merci, et joyeux anniversaire à vous aussi 16:27:19 :) 16:27:40 Glenn: Happy birthday to your lovely lady 16:28:46 thanks molly, her bday present is landing her first job in nursing, starting tomorrow in boulder 16:29:52 cabanier has joined #css 16:33:46 rhauck has joined #css 16:34:44 Hey that's great Glenn! Please send along all congrats :) 16:36:09 cabanier has joined #css 16:48:13 florian has joined #css 16:49:38 Zakim, code? 16:49:39 the conference code is 78953 (tel:+1.617.761.6200 sip:zakim@voip.w3.org), glazou 16:52:37 jdaggett has joined #css 16:54:55 Style_CSS FP()12:00PM has now started 16:55:02 +[IPcaller] 16:55:12 Zakim, [IPcaller] has me 16:55:14 +florian; got it 16:55:43 +??P13 16:55:48 Zakim, ??P13 is me 16:55:48 +glazou; got it 16:56:43 +??P16 16:56:59 zakim, ??p16 is me 16:56:59 +jdaggett; got it 16:57:10 +Molly_Holzschlag 16:57:23 i'm muted 16:58:05 +??P20 16:58:09 Zakim, who is noisy? 16:58:21 glazou, listening for 10 seconds I heard sound from the following: glazou (4%) 16:58:29 hahaha 16:58:37 +plinss 16:58:40 so that was jdaggett who muted his phone 16:58:42 +glenn 16:59:07 dbaron has joined #css 16:59:17 +nvdbleek 16:59:26 zakim, mute me 16:59:26 nvdbleek should now be muted 16:59:50 leif1 has joined #css 17:00:09 smfr has joined #css 17:00:12 +SimonSapin 17:00:35 +Stearns 17:00:38 +smfr 17:00:53 http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-style/2013Feb/0696.html 17:00:54 oyvind has joined #css 17:00:55 glazou has changed the topic to: http://www.w3.org/mid/57ED6425-7C20-4CF6-A930-0233D66A4C65@hp.com 17:00:59 + +47.23.69.aaaa 17:01:06 djackson has joined #css 17:01:07 Zakim, aaaa is me 17:01:07 +leif1; got it 17:01:07 smfr has changed the topic to: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-style/2013Feb/0696.html 17:02:01 +djackson 17:02:15 +krit 17:02:59 jdovey has joined #css 17:03:07 rhauck has joined #css 17:03:21 + +1.905.607.aabb 17:03:26 JohnJansen has joined #Css 17:03:41 +[Apple] 17:03:46 Zakim, Apple is me 17:03:47 +hober; got it 17:04:18 Zakim, krit has me 17:04:18 +rhauck; got it 17:04:29 zakim, aabb is jdovey 17:04:29 +jdovey; got it 17:04:33 who's typing near their mike? 17:04:37 Zakin, who's noisy 17:04:42 Zakim, who's noisy 17:04:42 I don't understand 'who's noisy', smfr 17:04:48 Zakim, who is noisy? 17:05:01 glazou, listening for 11 seconds I heard sound from the following: [IPcaller] (64%) 17:05:18 Zakim, mute IPcaller 17:05:18 [IPcaller] should now be muted 17:05:18 Zakim, mute [IPcaller] 17:05:19 [IPcaller] was already muted, glazou 17:05:34 Zakim, who has IPcaller? 17:05:34 sorry, glazou, I do not recognize a party named 'who' 17:05:41 ah, serenity 17:05:49 are you all gone?-) 17:06:06 SteveZ has joined #css 17:06:08 +[Microsoft] 17:06:11 Zakim, unmute [IPcaller] 17:06:11 [IPcaller] should no longer be muted 17:06:17 +[IPcaller.a] 17:06:20 Zakim, Microsoft has JohnJansen 17:06:20 +JohnJansen; got it 17:06:42 Zakim, [IPcaller.a] is me 17:06:42 +fantasai; got it 17:06:47 +SteveZ 17:07:30 zakim, [IPcaller] is florian 17:07:30 +florian; got it 17:07:59 +Bert 17:08:07 here's your scribe 17:08:10 +dbaron 17:08:25 Bert can you scribe? 17:08:32 ScribeNick: fantasai 17:08:50 +[Microsoft.a] 17:08:50 plinss: Extra topics? 17:08:59 glazou: One related to css3-page / paged media in general 17:09:07 glazou: Would like to add Simon as extra editor for GCPM 17:09:15 jdaggett: Would like to talk about last call push for CSS Variables 17:09:19 not really css3-page if it’s GCPM 17:09:28 plinss: Another thing wrt variables fantasai mentioned, too 17:09:33 agreed but falling in same basket SimonSapin 17:09:42 Zakim, Apple has dino 17:09:42 sorry, hober, I do not recognize a party named 'Apple' 17:09:44 plinss: First topic. Notice we have Dael Jackson on the call. 17:09:46 Zakim, hober has dino 17:09:46 +dino; got it 17:09:54 Rossen has joined #css 17:10:00 plinss: She's agreed to be a dedicated scribe. Waiting for funding to go through. 17:10:18 +[Microsoft.aa] 17:10:22 zakim, microsoft has me 17:10:22 +arronei_; got it 17:10:23 plinss asks if this sounds good to everyone 17:10:36 Zakim, Microsoft has me 17:10:36 +Rossen; got it 17:10:53 Florian: Scribing requires not just fast typing, but also deep understanding of what we're talking about. Going to be a challenge. 17:11:07 RESOLVED: Add Dael to CSSWG 17:11:20 Topic: Font Resource Handling 17:11:26 http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-style/2013Feb/0432.html 17:11:29 dino has joined #css 17:11:36 jdaggett: Not sure we need to discuss... I proposed change to wording to one section 17:11:48 jdaggett: No one really responded 17:11:53 + +1.650.766.aacc 17:11:54 jdaggett: Propose taking this change 17:12:10 Whoops, I'm coming into the room. Gimme a sec. 17:12:12 plinss: Any objections? 17:12:32 RESOLVED: Accept jdaggetts proposal above 17:12:35 Topic: CSS3 Page Issues 17:12:43 SimonSapin: Have few small issues to resolve on 17:12:47 https://lists.w3.org/Archives/Member/w3c-css-wg/2013JanMar/0214.html 17:12:51 https://lists.w3.org/Archives/Member/w3c-css-wg/2013JanMar/0214.html 17:12:53 +Tab_Atkins 17:12:58 bradk has joined #css 17:13:13 First issue: "Named" first page 17:13:13 http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-style/2013Feb/0640.html 17:13:34 SimonSapin: Currently spec says that MQ resolve on default page size, do not consider any size property 17:13:34 dino, don't dream 17:13:42 SimonSapin: Issue that maybe some size properties should be considered 17:13:46 SimonSapin: Would be nice to have 17:13:55 SimonSapin: But think current wording is consistent with MQ 17:14:03 SimonSapin: Propose no change, just remove the issue 17:14:10 SimonSapin: Any objections to that? 17:14:16 Florian: No objection, but comment 17:14:34 florian is too far away from his microphone 17:14:42 florian: Another spec not entirely dissimilar, device adapation 17:14:46 Florian: very hard to hear you 17:14:51 florian: MQ react to device adaptation 17:15:18 florian: When you set a different viewport, MQ can react to the size of this viewport 17:15:22 florian: This is different from @page 17:15:34 florian: The resolution you propose is fine, and consistent with MQ 17:15:41 florian: But I'm wondering if we're happy with this inconsistency 17:15:51 florian: If you set @page size, they don't react; but if you set @viewport, they do 17:16:14 SimonSapin: It's a good point, but what happens with @viewport inside @media with an MQ? 17:16:20 florian: There's an algorithm in the spec 17:16:35 florian: It doesn't have to be particularly elegant, it just has to break the cycle 17:16:46 SimonSapin: Ok, I will look at this and come back next week 17:16:54 florian: I'm uncomfortable with the two different directions 17:17:13 that was SECOND issue http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-style/2013Feb/0097.html 17:17:41 or even THIRD 17:17:59 fantasai: There are very good use cases for having MQ respond to page size or viewport size 17:18:14 so that was http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-style/2013Feb/0096.html 17:18:17 fantasai: paged-media says what it says because we had to resolve the conflict [...] 17:18:25 now http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-style/2013Feb/0097.html 17:18:50 SimonSapin: There is some text in spec to ignore size declarations if qualified by MQ 17:19:17 SimonSapin: My proposal was to remove that part of the spec *if* MQ is based on default size 17:19:25 SimonSapin: Because it's not necessary 17:19:37 in that case 17:19:38 glazou: yes was resolved during a past ftf 17:19:57 SimonSapin: Next issue - named pages 17:19:58 now http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-style/2013Feb/0640.html 17:20:35 SimonSapin: Definition of named pages didn't allow first page to be named 17:20:46 SimonSapin: So changed algorithm to work that way 17:21:06 leif: Without this change, would it mean there would be a blank page at the beginning? 17:21:28 SimonSapin: Only get a page break when value of page property changes 17:21:56 SimonSapin: I think this change is more in spirit of the property. I think this was implemented behavior, never written down. 17:22:20 plinss: So if you had an element saying it should be on page named "foo", and it's the first item, it would force a page break. Now it doesn't 17:22:33 SimonSapin: Basically still has page names work even when there is no content before that element 17:22:39 leif: ok, great 17:23:24 RESOLVED: Accept Simon's fix to page names so they work on first page of document 17:23:25 http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-style/2013Feb/0652.html 17:23:48 SimonSapin: z-index property is optional on page-margin boxes. Don't know why, so propose making it non-optional 17:24:00 SimonSapin: If a UA supports it on elements, it must support it on page-margin boxes 17:24:08 glazou: What would be the effect on page-margin boxes? 17:24:21 SimonSapin: If they happen to overlap, you can choose which are on top with z-index 17:24:38 dbaron: z-index only applies to positioned elements 17:24:46 shanestephens has joined #css 17:24:53 SimonSapin: Wording in spec that says z-index always applies 17:24:58 dbaron: ok 17:24:59 Zakim: Who is on the phone? 17:25:08 TabAtkins_: Already applies automatically to flex items 17:25:17 Rossen: and grid items 17:25:42 glazou: When you flow an element into a margin box (via GCPM), does this affect that? 17:25:56 SimonSapin: Wouldn't affect flow, only stacking 17:25:56 Zakim, Who is on the phone? 17:25:56 On the phone I see florian, glazou, jdaggett, Molly_Holzschlag, ??P20, plinss, glenn, nvdbleek (muted), SimonSapin, Stearns, smfr, leif1, djackson, krit, jdovey, hober, 17:26:00 ... [Microsoft], fantasai, SteveZ, Bert, dbaron, [Microsoft.a], [Microsoft.aa], +1.650.766.aacc, Tab_Atkins 17:26:00 krit has rhauck 17:26:00 florian has florian 17:26:00 [Microsoft] has Rossen 17:26:00 hober has dino 17:26:05 glazou: Would like some time to look at this more closely 17:26:28 florian: In theory what you're saying makes sense [...] 17:26:28 not catching a word 17:26:51 Zakim, aacc is me 17:26:52 +bradk; got it 17:27:00 Simon makes sense, but I wonder if we could dig outt why it was marked optional in the first place 17:28:14 fantasai: The reason it was marked optional was that, at the time, it was not implemented, and we were trying only to clean it up, not to add new features 17:28:24 fantasai: But didn't see a reason to forbid z-index, so made it optional. 17:28:47 plinss: Ok, let's come back next week. If someone wants to write tests and see if anyone implements it 17:29:01 SimonSapin: WeasyPrint doesn't implement it, but think it would be good to have it, and would implement it if it's in the spec 17:29:05 SimonSapin: Next issue 17:29:09 http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-style/2013Feb/0653.html 17:29:46 SimonSapin: The default order of page-margin boxes is not specified, because we didn't have a good answer 17:29:53 SimonSapin: Suggest picking something arbitrary 17:30:03 SimonSapin: e.g. start at top-left and go clockwise 17:30:10 glazou: That would be a problem for rtl pages 17:30:18 SimonSapin: z-index would allow changing the order 17:30:35 SimonSapin: Also, only matters whenoverlap with the boxes, which we try not to do in the layout algorithm 17:30:55 plinss: Do we have other cases where rotation depends on writing mode? 17:31:07 glazou: My concern is rtl pages will forget to fix 17:31:14 SimonSapin: Hopefully they will not overlap at all 17:31:22 Why not define starting at the start-before edge 17:31:51 fantasai: I would like to know what Antenna House does, and if they thought about this problem. Because if they thought about it, they probably have a sensible answer 17:32:20 Then go in the inline direction followed by the block direction 17:32:29 SimonSapin: Could discuss particular order, but what about not leaving it undefined? 17:32:54 Bert: It seems very rare to have overlapping, so probably need to use z-index anyway 17:33:06 Bert: Don't think it's necessary to do anything complicated, just need some answer 17:33:21 I am with Bert on this. 17:33:37 glazou: Ok, I withdraw my objection, I agree with proposal. Just want some testcases. 17:34:03 szilles: One advantage of undef is that ppl will always use z-index b/c doesn't know how it works 17:34:11 plinss: Only if they test in multiple implementations 17:34:22 s/Just want some testcases/relies on previous issue's resolution so give me a few days 17:34:35 szilles: Defining it fixed way, disadvantages some other languages 17:34:48 Ask antena house, if they have an answer, use that, otherwise, define whatever 17:34:52 SimonSapin: Still in favor of definign something. 17:35:27 SimonSapin: One last issue, but will take a lot more time, so suggest deferring to after WD 17:35:30 css3-page even 17:35:34 SimonSapin: wrt viewport units and ICB 17:35:37 glazou: I have one issue 17:36:14 glazou: My issue is simple, related to OM of page rule, as defined in CSS3 Page 17:36:23 glazou: Paged Media L3 introduces new @rules inside @page rule 17:36:38 glazou: OM currently unable to fix that. Would like to see at least a proposal or start of something about this new @page rule 17:36:52 glazou: Noticed ConditionalRules introduces GroupingRule 17:36:58 glazou: Might make sense to inherit from that. 17:37:14 glazou: That would allow editors like mine to deal with declarations and @margin boxes inside @page rule. Otherwise not editable for me. 17:37:22 TabAtkins_: That's maybe not doable as written 17:37:36 TabAtkins_: GroupRule is used for things that contain declarations only 17:37:51 TabAtkins_: Might need a different interface, with slightly different API 17:38:19 SimonSapin: Doesn't insertRule reject inappropriate things anyway? 17:38:28 florian: declaration vs. at-rule 17:38:30 SimonSapin: 2 ways to do this 17:38:41 s/at-rule/rule/ 17:38:49 SimonSapin: Either have separate list of rules, same as at-media, and separately had style attribute, same as currently exist 17:39:11 SimonSapin: But this does not preserve relative order of at-rules and declarations 17:39:30 glazou: Preserving the order is IMO not an issue 17:39:40 zakim, who the heck is noisy? 17:39:40 I don't understand your question, jdaggett. 17:39:54 zakim, who is noisy? 17:39:54 fantasai: I agree. The relative order here has no meaning. 17:40:04 jdaggett, listening for 10 seconds I heard sound from the following: florian (50%), plinss (9%) 17:40:11 fantasai: Just need to preserve relative order of at-rules amongst themselves 17:40:30 SimonSapin: Will this be the case in the future? 17:40:40 TabAtkins: Think so 17:40:44 Zakim, mute IPcaller 17:40:44 sorry, glazou, I do not know which phone connection belongs to IPcaller 17:40:45 TabAtkins: Actually... 17:41:08 TabAtkins: I can see things in the future where relative order of declarations and at-rules might be important, e.g. mixins like SASS. 17:41:22 SimonSapin: If we do want to preserve order, then it's much more complicated. 17:41:31 glazou: It's a very complex discussion, suggest we don't go into that right now. 17:41:47 -> mailing list 17:41:55 SimonSapin: Does this belong in CSSOM or CSS3 Page? 17:42:00 glazou asks Glenn 17:42:12 thinking 17:42:17 i'd say OM 17:42:26 cabanier has joined #css 17:42:42 glazou: New specs like animations have their own OM 17:42:47 i'm open... if it is general that can be used elsewhere, then probably OM 17:42:54 Zakim, unmute [IPcaller] 17:42:54 sorry, florian, I do not know which phone connection belongs to [IPcaller] 17:42:55 glazou: CSSOM deals with everything else 17:43:08 florian: Think CSSOM spec still has plenty of work to do for legacy thing. 17:43:16 florian: For new things, should just define them in that spec 17:43:34 florian: Force both editors and implementers deal with OM as they go 17:43:46 we have effectively moved the CSSFontRule out to the font spec, so could move CSSPageRule out as well... 17:43:52 glazou: Implementers will have to implement something anyway, so 17:44:07 +1 to OM in each module 17:44:07 yes to what peter said 17:44:08 lmclister has joined #css 17:44:11 plinss: Keep CSSOM spec to past behavior 17:44:24 RESOLVED: Add @page OM to css3-page 17:44:58 glazou: GCPM spec is bad shape, really old, some things in contradiction with charter 17:45:07 glazou: Suggest new editor, Simon Sapin, to become 2nd editor on the spec 17:45:19 jdaggett: howcome still an editor? 17:45:21 glazou: Yes 17:45:25 jdaggett: Is he ok with it? 17:45:29 glazou: Not yet, we'll have to ask. 17:45:38 glazou: But problem is changes we requested in the past multiple times were not made. 17:45:49 jdaggett: I'd like to hear how howcome feels about that. 17:45:52 glazou: We will anyway! 17:46:01 isherman has joined #css 17:46:01 plinss: Worth getting feedback from him before adopting formally 17:46:21 florian: Seems to me different kinds of things in GCPM, some that should be there and go to REC there, and things that should go in another spec 17:46:48 florian: From pov of migrating things to different specs, e.g. generate paged media based on overflow, this could be in dbaron's spec 17:47:02 florian: Don't need extra editor to GCPM for that 17:47:09 florian: just edit it elsewhere 17:47:19 glazou: Sounds like action on chairs to get howcome's opinion 17:47:31 SimonSapin: I think we'll need to have that discussion for each part of GCPM 17:47:43 SimonSapin: Leave it there, or shift it elsewhere 17:47:48 Florian: Agree with that. 17:47:50 -leif1 17:47:59 Florian: But GCPM really is a special spec, it's howcome's spec, hard to discuss without him. 17:48:02 Topic: Variables 17:48:07 https://lists.w3.org/Archives/Member/w3c-css-wg/2013JanMar/0213.html 17:48:25 https://lists.w3.org/Archives/Member/w3c-css-wg/2013JanMar/0213.html 17:48:31 http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-style/2013Feb/0632.html 17:48:33 http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-style/2013Feb/0632.html 17:48:49 SimonSapin: Issue is that this prevents usual mechanism of using cascade to find fallback values 17:48:56 SimonSapin: It's pretty fundamental mechanism in CSS 17:49:02 SimonSapin: Think we should preserve that 17:49:09 SimonSapin: One way to solve is to keep around cascaded list 17:49:17 SimonSapin: Keep around last declaration that's valid 17:49:37 SimonSapin: After I raised this issue, Tab said it was rejected b/c implementations didn't want to remember multiple cascaded values 17:50:04 TabAtkins: Implementations want to keep current optimization, where don't need to keep around all those values 17:50:22 florian: Wondering if there's some kind of middle ground 17:50:37 florian: Just remember two, one declaration variables, and one without variables. 17:50:50 florian: Less memorizing. Doesn't give you full cascade 17:51:06 florian: But maybe it's more confusing to have part cascade rather than full 17:51:23 antonp has joined #css 17:51:26 TabAtkins: Seen as weird to ignore declaration with variables that would have worked as a fallback 17:51:43 TabAtkins: I do have some proposals to type-check variables early on, figure out whether invalid ahead of time 17:51:52 TabAtkins: Not addressing in this level 17:51:58 TabAtkins: Addresses a lot of fallback issues 17:52:12 TabAtkins: Not as good as keeping full cascade, but fills in many holes 17:52:34 SimonSapin: Would your proposal mean that validation of some declarations that use variables is done after the cascade, and some are done before? 17:52:58 TabAtkins: Typing proposal makes variable itself to go invalid early. Fallback happens at variable level 17:53:07 rather than killing the property declaration 17:53:19 TabAtkins: would then use fallback [...]? 17:53:28 SimonSapin: Different fallback than what we already have 17:54:02 florian: Keeping around cascade, as an implementer, much preferred Tab's proposal. 17:54:20 TabAtkins: Variables are pretty memory-heavy, this would make it worse 17:54:23 You could keep the cascade list for each var-foo, and use earlier declarations of var-foo when later ones don't work. 17:54:32 SimonSapin: I don't think it means keeping entire cascade around 17:54:58 SimonSapin: Would only keep around up to first declaration that doesn't include variables 17:55:04 SimonSapin: Most cases, this is only one declaration. 17:55:14 SimonSapin: Cases with variables, usually pretty short anyway 17:55:26 SimonSapin: Don't need to preserve anything before a declaration that does not use the var() function. 17:55:39 SimonSapin: If this has been rejected before, I understand, but would like to hear from different impl what they think 17:55:59 TabAtkins: I think this is not functionally different 17:56:08 TabAtkins: Data structs still need to change, etc. 17:56:35 -SimonSapin 17:56:49 glazou: Suppose you have multiple declarations for same properties in a block. Editor changes one to use variables, behavior then changes. 17:56:53 TabAtkins_: No, would match it 17:56:54 I don't think Daniel's worry is warranted. 17:57:03 glazou: If your variable is invalid 17:57:19 TabAtkins: Simon's proposal gives same behavior as if the declaration was invalid 17:57:36 "Conference is restricted at this time" 17:57:47 glazou: I understand the rendering will be exactly the same, but it changes the way the declaration block is used, parsed, dealt with, inside the implementation. And that is not coherent. 17:57:52 florian: I think Tab's changes it more. 17:57:58 jdaggett: Could we talk about WD issue? 17:58:34 jdaggett: As I look over spec, I realized we haven't published WD since April 2012. Would prefer if we publish WD and then publish LC after polishing 17:58:57 jdaggett: Know we resolved LC, but htink it's better to publish WD first and get more eyes on it. Some people don't follow day-to-day-changes in editor's draft 17:59:05 jdaggett: And there are significant things that changed since last WD 17:59:21 TabAtkins: I don't think anything significant has changed, but have no objection to publishing a WD 17:59:26 jdaggett: Works for me 17:59:36 fine by me 17:59:48 RESOLVED: Publish WD of Variables 17:59:49 I agree it will get more eyes 18:00:13 TabAtkins: I'm doing some corrections based on jdaggett's feedback, so will verify with him and then ask for publication 18:00:17 +1 for a WD 18:00:30 or any publication, really 18:01:02 fantasai: suggest marking Simon's issues in the spec, so that people notice and give feedback 18:01:13 -[Microsoft.a] 18:01:18 -smfr 18:01:22 -nvdbleek 18:01:22 krit: Agenda request for fxtf 18:01:28 -bradk 18:01:35 -jdaggett 18:01:35 Meeting closed. 18:01:36 -hober 18:01:37 -Bert 18:01:38 -Molly_Holzschlag 18:01:40 -glazou 18:01:40 -krit 18:01:42 -jdovey 18:01:43 -glenn 18:01:43 -dbaron 18:01:46 -[Microsoft.aa] 18:01:47 -djackson 18:01:48