IRC log of css on 2013-02-27

Timestamps are in UTC.

16:17:38 [RRSAgent]
RRSAgent has joined #css
16:17:38 [RRSAgent]
logging to http://www.w3.org/2013/02/27-css-irc
16:17:44 [glazou]
Zakim, this will be Style
16:17:44 [Zakim]
ok, glazou; I see Style_CSS FP()12:00PM scheduled to start in 43 minutes
16:17:50 [glazou]
RRSAgent, make logs public
16:22:32 [glazou]
yep :-) hi molly
16:22:49 [molly]
well happy happy m'dear. Hope it's a great year
16:22:51 [glazou]
my parents tried to hit the 29th of feb but missed it
16:22:55 [glazou]
thanks molly :-)
16:24:26 [glenn]
28th or 1st?
16:24:55 [glazou]
25
16:25:11 [glenn]
ah.. my wife's is today
16:25:31 [glazou]
tell her happy b'day from me then :-D
16:25:45 [shanestephens]
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16:26:43 [glenn]
merci, et joyeux anniversaire à vous aussi
16:27:19 [glazou]
:)
16:27:40 [molly]
Glenn: Happy birthday to your lovely lady
16:28:46 [glenn]
thanks molly, her bday present is landing her first job in nursing, starting tomorrow in boulder
16:29:52 [cabanier]
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16:33:46 [rhauck]
rhauck has joined #css
16:34:44 [molly]
Hey that's great Glenn! Please send along all congrats :)
16:36:09 [cabanier]
cabanier has joined #css
16:48:13 [florian]
florian has joined #css
16:49:38 [glazou]
Zakim, code?
16:49:39 [Zakim]
the conference code is 78953 (tel:+1.617.761.6200 sip:zakim@voip.w3.org), glazou
16:52:37 [jdaggett]
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16:54:55 [Zakim]
Style_CSS FP()12:00PM has now started
16:55:02 [Zakim]
+[IPcaller]
16:55:12 [florian]
Zakim, [IPcaller] has me
16:55:14 [Zakim]
+florian; got it
16:55:43 [Zakim]
+??P13
16:55:48 [glazou]
Zakim, ??P13 is me
16:55:48 [Zakim]
+glazou; got it
16:56:43 [Zakim]
+??P16
16:56:59 [jdaggett]
zakim, ??p16 is me
16:56:59 [Zakim]
+jdaggett; got it
16:57:10 [Zakim]
+Molly_Holzschlag
16:57:23 [jdaggett]
i'm muted
16:58:05 [Zakim]
+??P20
16:58:09 [glazou]
Zakim, who is noisy?
16:58:21 [Zakim]
glazou, listening for 10 seconds I heard sound from the following: glazou (4%)
16:58:29 [molly]
hahaha
16:58:37 [Zakim]
+plinss
16:58:40 [glazou]
so that was jdaggett who muted his phone
16:58:42 [Zakim]
+glenn
16:59:07 [dbaron]
dbaron has joined #css
16:59:17 [Zakim]
+nvdbleek
16:59:26 [nvdbleek]
zakim, mute me
16:59:26 [Zakim]
nvdbleek should now be muted
16:59:50 [leif1]
leif1 has joined #css
17:00:09 [smfr]
smfr has joined #css
17:00:12 [Zakim]
+SimonSapin
17:00:35 [Zakim]
+Stearns
17:00:38 [Zakim]
+smfr
17:00:53 [jdaggett]
http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-style/2013Feb/0696.html
17:00:54 [oyvind]
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17:00:55 [glazou]
glazou has changed the topic to: http://www.w3.org/mid/57ED6425-7C20-4CF6-A930-0233D66A4C65@hp.com
17:00:59 [Zakim]
+ +47.23.69.aaaa
17:01:06 [djackson]
djackson has joined #css
17:01:07 [leif1]
Zakim, aaaa is me
17:01:07 [Zakim]
+leif1; got it
17:01:07 [smfr]
smfr has changed the topic to: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-style/2013Feb/0696.html
17:02:01 [Zakim]
+djackson
17:02:15 [Zakim]
+krit
17:02:59 [jdovey]
jdovey has joined #css
17:03:07 [rhauck]
rhauck has joined #css
17:03:21 [Zakim]
+ +1.905.607.aabb
17:03:26 [JohnJansen]
JohnJansen has joined #Css
17:03:41 [Zakim]
+[Apple]
17:03:46 [hober]
Zakim, Apple is me
17:03:47 [Zakim]
+hober; got it
17:04:18 [rhauck]
Zakim, krit has me
17:04:18 [Zakim]
+rhauck; got it
17:04:29 [plinss]
zakim, aabb is jdovey
17:04:29 [Zakim]
+jdovey; got it
17:04:33 [jdaggett]
who's typing near their mike?
17:04:37 [smfr]
Zakin, who's noisy
17:04:42 [smfr]
Zakim, who's noisy
17:04:42 [Zakim]
I don't understand 'who's noisy', smfr
17:04:48 [glazou]
Zakim, who is noisy?
17:05:01 [Zakim]
glazou, listening for 11 seconds I heard sound from the following: [IPcaller] (64%)
17:05:18 [hober]
Zakim, mute IPcaller
17:05:18 [Zakim]
[IPcaller] should now be muted
17:05:18 [glazou]
Zakim, mute [IPcaller]
17:05:19 [Zakim]
[IPcaller] was already muted, glazou
17:05:34 [glazou]
Zakim, who has IPcaller?
17:05:34 [Zakim]
sorry, glazou, I do not recognize a party named 'who'
17:05:41 [jdaggett]
ah, serenity
17:05:49 [glazou]
are you all gone?-)
17:06:06 [SteveZ]
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17:06:08 [Zakim]
+[Microsoft]
17:06:11 [florian]
Zakim, unmute [IPcaller]
17:06:11 [Zakim]
[IPcaller] should no longer be muted
17:06:17 [Zakim]
+[IPcaller.a]
17:06:20 [JohnJansen]
Zakim, Microsoft has JohnJansen
17:06:20 [Zakim]
+JohnJansen; got it
17:06:42 [fantasai]
Zakim, [IPcaller.a] is me
17:06:42 [Zakim]
+fantasai; got it
17:06:47 [Zakim]
+SteveZ
17:07:30 [plinss]
zakim, [IPcaller] is florian
17:07:30 [Zakim]
+florian; got it
17:07:59 [Zakim]
+Bert
17:08:07 [glazou]
here's your scribe
17:08:10 [Zakim]
+dbaron
17:08:25 [glazou]
Bert can you scribe?
17:08:32 [fantasai]
ScribeNick: fantasai
17:08:50 [Zakim]
+[Microsoft.a]
17:08:50 [fantasai]
plinss: Extra topics?
17:08:59 [fantasai]
glazou: One related to css3-page / paged media in general
17:09:07 [fantasai]
glazou: Would like to add Simon as extra editor for GCPM
17:09:15 [fantasai]
jdaggett: Would like to talk about last call push for CSS Variables
17:09:19 [SimonSapin]
not really css3-page if it’s GCPM
17:09:28 [fantasai]
plinss: Another thing wrt variables fantasai mentioned, too
17:09:33 [glazou]
agreed but falling in same basket SimonSapin
17:09:42 [hober]
Zakim, Apple has dino
17:09:42 [Zakim]
sorry, hober, I do not recognize a party named 'Apple'
17:09:44 [fantasai]
plinss: First topic. Notice we have Dael Jackson on the call.
17:09:46 [hober]
Zakim, hober has dino
17:09:46 [Zakim]
+dino; got it
17:09:54 [Rossen]
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17:10:00 [fantasai]
plinss: She's agreed to be a dedicated scribe. Waiting for funding to go through.
17:10:18 [Zakim]
+[Microsoft.aa]
17:10:22 [arronei_]
zakim, microsoft has me
17:10:22 [Zakim]
+arronei_; got it
17:10:23 [fantasai]
plinss asks if this sounds good to everyone
17:10:36 [Rossen]
Zakim, Microsoft has me
17:10:36 [Zakim]
+Rossen; got it
17:10:53 [fantasai]
Florian: Scribing requires not just fast typing, but also deep understanding of what we're talking about. Going to be a challenge.
17:11:07 [fantasai]
RESOLVED: Add Dael to CSSWG
17:11:20 [fantasai]
Topic: Font Resource Handling
17:11:26 [jdaggett]
http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-style/2013Feb/0432.html
17:11:29 [dino]
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17:11:36 [fantasai]
jdaggett: Not sure we need to discuss... I proposed change to wording to one section
17:11:48 [fantasai]
jdaggett: No one really responded
17:11:53 [Zakim]
+ +1.650.766.aacc
17:11:54 [fantasai]
jdaggett: Propose taking this change
17:12:10 [TabAtkins_]
Whoops, I'm coming into the room. Gimme a sec.
17:12:12 [fantasai]
plinss: Any objections?
17:12:32 [fantasai]
RESOLVED: Accept jdaggetts proposal above
17:12:35 [fantasai]
Topic: CSS3 Page Issues
17:12:43 [fantasai]
SimonSapin: Have few small issues to resolve on
17:12:47 [glazou]
https://lists.w3.org/Archives/Member/w3c-css-wg/2013JanMar/0214.html
17:12:51 [SimonSapin]
https://lists.w3.org/Archives/Member/w3c-css-wg/2013JanMar/0214.html
17:12:53 [Zakim]
+Tab_Atkins
17:12:58 [bradk]
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17:13:13 [fantasai]
First issue: "Named" first page
17:13:13 [fantasai]
http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-style/2013Feb/0640.html
17:13:34 [fantasai]
SimonSapin: Currently spec says that MQ resolve on default page size, do not consider any size property
17:13:34 [glazou]
dino, don't dream
17:13:42 [fantasai]
SimonSapin: Issue that maybe some size properties should be considered
17:13:46 [fantasai]
SimonSapin: Would be nice to have
17:13:55 [fantasai]
SimonSapin: But think current wording is consistent with MQ
17:14:03 [fantasai]
SimonSapin: Propose no change, just remove the issue
17:14:10 [fantasai]
SimonSapin: Any objections to that?
17:14:16 [fantasai]
Florian: No objection, but comment
17:14:34 [glazou]
florian is too far away from his microphone
17:14:42 [fantasai]
florian: Another spec not entirely dissimilar, device adapation
17:14:46 [molly]
Florian: very hard to hear you
17:14:51 [fantasai]
florian: MQ react to device adaptation
17:15:18 [fantasai]
florian: When you set a different viewport, MQ can react to the size of this viewport
17:15:22 [fantasai]
florian: This is different from @page
17:15:34 [fantasai]
florian: The resolution you propose is fine, and consistent with MQ
17:15:41 [fantasai]
florian: But I'm wondering if we're happy with this inconsistency
17:15:51 [fantasai]
florian: If you set @page size, they don't react; but if you set @viewport, they do
17:16:14 [fantasai]
SimonSapin: It's a good point, but what happens with @viewport inside @media with an MQ?
17:16:20 [fantasai]
florian: There's an algorithm in the spec
17:16:35 [fantasai]
florian: It doesn't have to be particularly elegant, it just has to break the cycle
17:16:46 [fantasai]
SimonSapin: Ok, I will look at this and come back next week
17:16:54 [fantasai]
florian: I'm uncomfortable with the two different directions
17:17:13 [glazou]
that was SECOND issue http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-style/2013Feb/0097.html
17:17:41 [glazou]
or even THIRD
17:17:59 [fantasai]
fantasai: There are very good use cases for having MQ respond to page size or viewport size
17:18:14 [glazou]
so that was http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-style/2013Feb/0096.html
17:18:17 [fantasai]
fantasai: paged-media says what it says because we had to resolve the conflict [...]
17:18:25 [glazou]
now http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-style/2013Feb/0097.html
17:18:50 [fantasai]
SimonSapin: There is some text in spec to ignore size declarations if qualified by MQ
17:19:17 [fantasai]
SimonSapin: My proposal was to remove that part of the spec *if* MQ is based on default size
17:19:25 [fantasai]
SimonSapin: Because it's not necessary
17:19:37 [fantasai]
in that case
17:19:38 [glazou]
glazou: yes was resolved during a past ftf
17:19:57 [fantasai]
SimonSapin: Next issue - named pages
17:19:58 [glazou]
now http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-style/2013Feb/0640.html
17:20:35 [fantasai]
SimonSapin: Definition of named pages didn't allow first page to be named
17:20:46 [fantasai]
SimonSapin: So changed algorithm to work that way
17:21:06 [fantasai]
leif: Without this change, would it mean there would be a blank page at the beginning?
17:21:28 [fantasai]
SimonSapin: Only get a page break when value of page property changes
17:21:56 [fantasai]
SimonSapin: I think this change is more in spirit of the property. I think this was implemented behavior, never written down.
17:22:20 [fantasai]
plinss: So if you had an element saying it should be on page named "foo", and it's the first item, it would force a page break. Now it doesn't
17:22:33 [fantasai]
SimonSapin: Basically still has page names work even when there is no content before that element
17:22:39 [fantasai]
leif: ok, great
17:23:24 [fantasai]
RESOLVED: Accept Simon's fix to page names so they work on first page of document
17:23:25 [SimonSapin]
http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-style/2013Feb/0652.html
17:23:48 [fantasai]
SimonSapin: z-index property is optional on page-margin boxes. Don't know why, so propose making it non-optional
17:24:00 [fantasai]
SimonSapin: If a UA supports it on elements, it must support it on page-margin boxes
17:24:08 [fantasai]
glazou: What would be the effect on page-margin boxes?
17:24:21 [fantasai]
SimonSapin: If they happen to overlap, you can choose which are on top with z-index
17:24:38 [fantasai]
dbaron: z-index only applies to positioned elements
17:24:46 [shanestephens]
shanestephens has joined #css
17:24:53 [fantasai]
SimonSapin: Wording in spec that says z-index always applies
17:24:58 [dbaron]
dbaron: ok
17:24:59 [bradk]
Zakim: Who is on the phone?
17:25:08 [fantasai]
TabAtkins_: Already applies automatically to flex items
17:25:17 [fantasai]
Rossen: and grid items
17:25:42 [fantasai]
glazou: When you flow an element into a margin box (via GCPM), does this affect that?
17:25:56 [fantasai]
SimonSapin: Wouldn't affect flow, only stacking
17:25:56 [JohnJansen]
Zakim, Who is on the phone?
17:25:56 [Zakim]
On the phone I see florian, glazou, jdaggett, Molly_Holzschlag, ??P20, plinss, glenn, nvdbleek (muted), SimonSapin, Stearns, smfr, leif1, djackson, krit, jdovey, hober,
17:26:00 [Zakim]
... [Microsoft], fantasai, SteveZ, Bert, dbaron, [Microsoft.a], [Microsoft.aa], +1.650.766.aacc, Tab_Atkins
17:26:00 [Zakim]
krit has rhauck
17:26:00 [Zakim]
florian has florian
17:26:00 [Zakim]
[Microsoft] has Rossen
17:26:00 [Zakim]
hober has dino
17:26:05 [fantasai]
glazou: Would like some time to look at this more closely
17:26:28 [fantasai]
florian: In theory what you're saying makes sense [...]
17:26:28 [glazou]
not catching a word
17:26:51 [bradk]
Zakim, aacc is me
17:26:52 [Zakim]
+bradk; got it
17:27:00 [florian]
Simon makes sense, but I wonder if we could dig outt why it was marked optional in the first place
17:28:14 [fantasai]
fantasai: The reason it was marked optional was that, at the time, it was not implemented, and we were trying only to clean it up, not to add new features
17:28:24 [fantasai]
fantasai: But didn't see a reason to forbid z-index, so made it optional.
17:28:47 [fantasai]
plinss: Ok, let's come back next week. If someone wants to write tests and see if anyone implements it
17:29:01 [fantasai]
SimonSapin: WeasyPrint doesn't implement it, but think it would be good to have it, and would implement it if it's in the spec
17:29:05 [fantasai]
SimonSapin: Next issue
17:29:09 [SimonSapin]
http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-style/2013Feb/0653.html
17:29:46 [fantasai]
SimonSapin: The default order of page-margin boxes is not specified, because we didn't have a good answer
17:29:53 [fantasai]
SimonSapin: Suggest picking something arbitrary
17:30:03 [fantasai]
SimonSapin: e.g. start at top-left and go clockwise
17:30:10 [fantasai]
glazou: That would be a problem for rtl pages
17:30:18 [fantasai]
SimonSapin: z-index would allow changing the order
17:30:35 [fantasai]
SimonSapin: Also, only matters whenoverlap with the boxes, which we try not to do in the layout algorithm
17:30:55 [fantasai]
plinss: Do we have other cases where rotation depends on writing mode?
17:31:07 [fantasai]
glazou: My concern is rtl pages will forget to fix
17:31:14 [fantasai]
SimonSapin: Hopefully they will not overlap at all
17:31:22 [SteveZ]
Why not define starting at the start-before edge
17:31:51 [fantasai]
fantasai: I would like to know what Antenna House does, and if they thought about this problem. Because if they thought about it, they probably have a sensible answer
17:32:20 [SteveZ]
Then go in the inline direction followed by the block direction
17:32:29 [fantasai]
SimonSapin: Could discuss particular order, but what about not leaving it undefined?
17:32:54 [fantasai]
Bert: It seems very rare to have overlapping, so probably need to use z-index anyway
17:33:06 [fantasai]
Bert: Don't think it's necessary to do anything complicated, just need some answer
17:33:21 [florian]
I am with Bert on this.
17:33:37 [fantasai]
glazou: Ok, I withdraw my objection, I agree with proposal. Just want some testcases.
17:34:03 [fantasai]
szilles: One advantage of undef is that ppl will always use z-index b/c doesn't know how it works
17:34:11 [fantasai]
plinss: Only if they test in multiple implementations
17:34:22 [glazou]
s/Just want some testcases/relies on previous issue's resolution so give me a few days
17:34:35 [fantasai]
szilles: Defining it fixed way, disadvantages some other languages
17:34:48 [florian]
Ask antena house, if they have an answer, use that, otherwise, define whatever
17:34:52 [fantasai]
SimonSapin: Still in favor of definign something.
17:35:27 [fantasai]
SimonSapin: One last issue, but will take a lot more time, so suggest deferring to after WD
17:35:30 [glazou]
css3-page even
17:35:34 [fantasai]
SimonSapin: wrt viewport units and ICB
17:35:37 [fantasai]
glazou: I have one issue
17:36:14 [fantasai]
glazou: My issue is simple, related to OM of page rule, as defined in CSS3 Page
17:36:23 [fantasai]
glazou: Paged Media L3 introduces new @rules inside @page rule
17:36:38 [fantasai]
glazou: OM currently unable to fix that. Would like to see at least a proposal or start of something about this new @page rule
17:36:52 [fantasai]
glazou: Noticed ConditionalRules introduces GroupingRule
17:36:58 [fantasai]
glazou: Might make sense to inherit from that.
17:37:14 [fantasai]
glazou: That would allow editors like mine to deal with declarations and @margin boxes inside @page rule. Otherwise not editable for me.
17:37:22 [fantasai]
TabAtkins_: That's maybe not doable as written
17:37:36 [fantasai]
TabAtkins_: GroupRule is used for things that contain declarations only
17:37:51 [fantasai]
TabAtkins_: Might need a different interface, with slightly different API
17:38:19 [fantasai]
SimonSapin: Doesn't insertRule reject inappropriate things anyway?
17:38:28 [fantasai]
florian: declaration vs. at-rule
17:38:30 [fantasai]
SimonSapin: 2 ways to do this
17:38:41 [florian]
s/at-rule/rule/
17:38:49 [fantasai]
SimonSapin: Either have separate list of rules, same as at-media, and separately had style attribute, same as currently exist
17:39:11 [fantasai]
SimonSapin: But this does not preserve relative order of at-rules and declarations
17:39:30 [fantasai]
glazou: Preserving the order is IMO not an issue
17:39:40 [jdaggett]
zakim, who the heck is noisy?
17:39:40 [Zakim]
I don't understand your question, jdaggett.
17:39:54 [jdaggett]
zakim, who is noisy?
17:39:54 [fantasai]
fantasai: I agree. The relative order here has no meaning.
17:40:04 [Zakim]
jdaggett, listening for 10 seconds I heard sound from the following: florian (50%), plinss (9%)
17:40:11 [fantasai]
fantasai: Just need to preserve relative order of at-rules amongst themselves
17:40:30 [fantasai]
SimonSapin: Will this be the case in the future?
17:40:40 [fantasai]
TabAtkins: Think so
17:40:44 [glazou]
Zakim, mute IPcaller
17:40:44 [Zakim]
sorry, glazou, I do not know which phone connection belongs to IPcaller
17:40:45 [fantasai]
TabAtkins: Actually...
17:41:08 [fantasai]
TabAtkins: I can see things in the future where relative order of declarations and at-rules might be important, e.g. mixins like SASS.
17:41:22 [fantasai]
SimonSapin: If we do want to preserve order, then it's much more complicated.
17:41:31 [fantasai]
glazou: It's a very complex discussion, suggest we don't go into that right now.
17:41:47 [fantasai]
-> mailing list
17:41:55 [fantasai]
SimonSapin: Does this belong in CSSOM or CSS3 Page?
17:42:00 [fantasai]
glazou asks Glenn
17:42:12 [glenn]
thinking
17:42:17 [glenn]
i'd say OM
17:42:26 [cabanier]
cabanier has joined #css
17:42:42 [fantasai]
glazou: New specs like animations have their own OM
17:42:47 [glenn]
i'm open... if it is general that can be used elsewhere, then probably OM
17:42:54 [florian]
Zakim, unmute [IPcaller]
17:42:54 [Zakim]
sorry, florian, I do not know which phone connection belongs to [IPcaller]
17:42:55 [fantasai]
glazou: CSSOM deals with everything else
17:43:08 [fantasai]
florian: Think CSSOM spec still has plenty of work to do for legacy thing.
17:43:16 [fantasai]
florian: For new things, should just define them in that spec
17:43:34 [fantasai]
florian: Force both editors and implementers deal with OM as they go
17:43:46 [glenn]
we have effectively moved the CSSFontRule out to the font spec, so could move CSSPageRule out as well...
17:43:52 [fantasai]
glazou: Implementers will have to implement something anyway, so
17:44:07 [stearns]
+1 to OM in each module
17:44:07 [glenn]
yes to what peter said
17:44:08 [lmclister]
lmclister has joined #css
17:44:11 [fantasai]
plinss: Keep CSSOM spec to past behavior
17:44:24 [fantasai]
RESOLVED: Add @page OM to css3-page
17:44:58 [fantasai]
glazou: GCPM spec is bad shape, really old, some things in contradiction with charter
17:45:07 [fantasai]
glazou: Suggest new editor, Simon Sapin, to become 2nd editor on the spec
17:45:19 [fantasai]
jdaggett: howcome still an editor?
17:45:21 [fantasai]
glazou: Yes
17:45:25 [fantasai]
jdaggett: Is he ok with it?
17:45:29 [fantasai]
glazou: Not yet, we'll have to ask.
17:45:38 [fantasai]
glazou: But problem is changes we requested in the past multiple times were not made.
17:45:49 [fantasai]
jdaggett: I'd like to hear how howcome feels about that.
17:45:52 [fantasai]
glazou: We will anyway!
17:46:01 [isherman]
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17:46:01 [fantasai]
plinss: Worth getting feedback from him before adopting formally
17:46:21 [fantasai]
florian: Seems to me different kinds of things in GCPM, some that should be there and go to REC there, and things that should go in another spec
17:46:48 [fantasai]
florian: From pov of migrating things to different specs, e.g. generate paged media based on overflow, this could be in dbaron's spec
17:47:02 [fantasai]
florian: Don't need extra editor to GCPM for that
17:47:09 [fantasai]
florian: just edit it elsewhere
17:47:19 [fantasai]
glazou: Sounds like action on chairs to get howcome's opinion
17:47:31 [fantasai]
SimonSapin: I think we'll need to have that discussion for each part of GCPM
17:47:43 [fantasai]
SimonSapin: Leave it there, or shift it elsewhere
17:47:48 [fantasai]
Florian: Agree with that.
17:47:50 [Zakim]
-leif1
17:47:59 [fantasai]
Florian: But GCPM really is a special spec, it's howcome's spec, hard to discuss without him.
17:48:02 [fantasai]
Topic: Variables
17:48:07 [glazou]
https://lists.w3.org/Archives/Member/w3c-css-wg/2013JanMar/0213.html
17:48:25 [fantasai]
https://lists.w3.org/Archives/Member/w3c-css-wg/2013JanMar/0213.html
17:48:31 [fantasai]
http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-style/2013Feb/0632.html
17:48:33 [plinss]
http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-style/2013Feb/0632.html
17:48:49 [fantasai]
SimonSapin: Issue is that this prevents usual mechanism of using cascade to find fallback values
17:48:56 [fantasai]
SimonSapin: It's pretty fundamental mechanism in CSS
17:49:02 [fantasai]
SimonSapin: Think we should preserve that
17:49:09 [fantasai]
SimonSapin: One way to solve is to keep around cascaded list
17:49:17 [fantasai]
SimonSapin: Keep around last declaration that's valid
17:49:37 [fantasai]
SimonSapin: After I raised this issue, Tab said it was rejected b/c implementations didn't want to remember multiple cascaded values
17:50:04 [fantasai]
TabAtkins: Implementations want to keep current optimization, where don't need to keep around all those values
17:50:22 [fantasai]
florian: Wondering if there's some kind of middle ground
17:50:37 [fantasai]
florian: Just remember two, one declaration variables, and one without variables.
17:50:50 [fantasai]
florian: Less memorizing. Doesn't give you full cascade
17:51:06 [fantasai]
florian: But maybe it's more confusing to have part cascade rather than full
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17:51:26 [fantasai]
TabAtkins: Seen as weird to ignore declaration with variables that would have worked as a fallback
17:51:43 [fantasai]
TabAtkins: I do have some proposals to type-check variables early on, figure out whether invalid ahead of time
17:51:52 [fantasai]
TabAtkins: Not addressing in this level
17:51:58 [fantasai]
TabAtkins: Addresses a lot of fallback issues
17:52:12 [fantasai]
TabAtkins: Not as good as keeping full cascade, but fills in many holes
17:52:34 [fantasai]
SimonSapin: Would your proposal mean that validation of some declarations that use variables is done after the cascade, and some are done before?
17:52:58 [fantasai]
TabAtkins: Typing proposal makes variable itself to go invalid early. Fallback happens at variable level
17:53:07 [fantasai]
rather than killing the property declaration
17:53:19 [fantasai]
TabAtkins: would then use fallback [...]?
17:53:28 [fantasai]
SimonSapin: Different fallback than what we already have
17:54:02 [fantasai]
florian: Keeping around cascade, as an implementer, much preferred Tab's proposal.
17:54:20 [fantasai]
TabAtkins: Variables are pretty memory-heavy, this would make it worse
17:54:23 [bradk]
You could keep the cascade list for each var-foo, and use earlier declarations of var-foo when later ones don't work.
17:54:32 [fantasai]
SimonSapin: I don't think it means keeping entire cascade around
17:54:58 [fantasai]
SimonSapin: Would only keep around up to first declaration that doesn't include variables
17:55:04 [fantasai]
SimonSapin: Most cases, this is only one declaration.
17:55:14 [fantasai]
SimonSapin: Cases with variables, usually pretty short anyway
17:55:26 [fantasai]
SimonSapin: Don't need to preserve anything before a declaration that does not use the var() function.
17:55:39 [fantasai]
SimonSapin: If this has been rejected before, I understand, but would like to hear from different impl what they think
17:55:59 [fantasai]
TabAtkins: I think this is not functionally different
17:56:08 [fantasai]
TabAtkins: Data structs still need to change, etc.
17:56:35 [Zakim]
-SimonSapin
17:56:49 [fantasai]
glazou: Suppose you have multiple declarations for same properties in a block. Editor changes one to use variables, behavior then changes.
17:56:53 [fantasai]
TabAtkins_: No, would match it
17:56:54 [florian]
I don't think Daniel's worry is warranted.
17:57:03 [fantasai]
glazou: If your variable is invalid
17:57:19 [fantasai]
TabAtkins: Simon's proposal gives same behavior as if the declaration was invalid
17:57:36 [SimonSapin]
"Conference is restricted at this time"
17:57:47 [fantasai]
glazou: I understand the rendering will be exactly the same, but it changes the way the declaration block is used, parsed, dealt with, inside the implementation. And that is not coherent.
17:57:52 [fantasai]
florian: I think Tab's changes it more.
17:57:58 [fantasai]
jdaggett: Could we talk about WD issue?
17:58:34 [fantasai]
jdaggett: As I look over spec, I realized we haven't published WD since April 2012. Would prefer if we publish WD and then publish LC after polishing
17:58:57 [fantasai]
jdaggett: Know we resolved LC, but htink it's better to publish WD first and get more eyes on it. Some people don't follow day-to-day-changes in editor's draft
17:59:05 [fantasai]
jdaggett: And there are significant things that changed since last WD
17:59:21 [fantasai]
TabAtkins: I don't think anything significant has changed, but have no objection to publishing a WD
17:59:26 [fantasai]
jdaggett: Works for me
17:59:36 [molly]
fine by me
17:59:48 [fantasai]
RESOLVED: Publish WD of Variables
17:59:49 [molly]
I agree it will get more eyes
18:00:13 [fantasai]
TabAtkins: I'm doing some corrections based on jdaggett's feedback, so will verify with him and then ask for publication
18:00:17 [SimonSapin]
+1 for a WD
18:00:30 [SimonSapin]
or any publication, really
18:01:02 [fantasai]
fantasai: suggest marking Simon's issues in the spec, so that people notice and give feedback
18:01:13 [Zakim]
-[Microsoft.a]
18:01:18 [Zakim]
-smfr
18:01:22 [Zakim]
-nvdbleek
18:01:22 [fantasai]
krit: Agenda request for fxtf
18:01:28 [Zakim]
-bradk
18:01:35 [Zakim]
-jdaggett
18:01:35 [fantasai]
Meeting closed.
18:01:36 [Zakim]
-hober
18:01:37 [Zakim]
-Bert
18:01:38 [Zakim]
-Molly_Holzschlag
18:01:40 [Zakim]
-glazou
18:01:40 [Zakim]
-krit
18:01:42 [Zakim]
-jdovey
18:01:43 [Zakim]
-glenn
18:01:43 [Zakim]
-dbaron
18:01:46 [Zakim]
-[Microsoft.aa]
18:01:47 [Zakim]
-djackson
18:01:48 [Zakim]
-plinss
18:01:49 [Zakim]
-Stearns
18:01:50 [Zakim]
-Tab_Atkins
18:01:56 [Zakim]
-SteveZ
18:01:57 [Zakim]
-florian
18:01:59 [Zakim]
-fantasai
18:01:59 [jdovey]
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18:02:06 [glazou]
time for a tea to ease my sore throat
18:02:22 [Zakim]
-??P20
18:05:18 [TabAtkins_]
fantasai: What's going on with the i18n thing?
18:05:35 [fantasai]
join #i18n
18:05:41 [fantasai]
there's a google hangout thing
18:06:27 [TabAtkins_]
Get a g+ account!
18:06:34 [TabAtkins_]
You already have gmail, it's trivial to upgrade it.
18:07:22 [Zakim]
disconnecting the lone participant, [Microsoft], in Style_CSS FP()12:00PM
18:07:24 [Zakim]
Style_CSS FP()12:00PM has ended
18:07:24 [Zakim]
Attendees were florian, glazou, jdaggett, Molly_Holzschlag, plinss, glenn, nvdbleek, SimonSapin, Stearns, smfr, +47.23.69.aaaa, leif1, djackson, +1.905.607.aabb, rhauck, jdovey,
18:07:24 [Zakim]
... JohnJansen, fantasai, SteveZ, Bert, dbaron, [Microsoft], dino, arronei_, Rossen, +1.650.766.aacc, Tab_Atkins, bradk
18:07:29 [TabAtkins_]
Though I don't have a computer with me at the moment that can do g+ hangout. :/
18:09:58 [rhauck]
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18:12:02 [fantasai]
TabAtkins_: passcode 26631
18:12:40 [fantasai]
TabAtkins_: on Zakim
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20:48:42 [TabAtkins]
fantasai: Sent you my writeup of the i18n stuff
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TabAtkins: replied
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