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14:55:00 <fsasaki> meeting: MLW-LT WG
14:55:02 <fsasaki> chair: felix
14:55:20 <fsasaki> agenda: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-multilingualweb-lt/2013Feb/0241.html
14:56:22 <fsasaki> regrets: christian, clemens, dom
14:56:39 <fsasaki> topic: roll call
14:56:42 <fsasaki> tbd
14:56:47 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2013/02/25-mlw-lt-minutes.html fsasaki
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14:59:38 <joerg> present+ joerg
14:59:49 <fsasaki> present+ felix
15:00:32 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2013/02/25-mlw-lt-minutes.html fsasaki
15:00:52 <fsasaki> present+ kfritsche
15:00:53 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2013/02/25-mlw-lt-minutes.html fsasaki
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15:01:45 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2013/02/25-mlw-lt-minutes.html fsasaki
15:02:00 <Des> present+ Des
15:02:30 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2013/02/25-mlw-lt-minutes.html fsasaki
15:02:30 <Pedro> present+ Pedro
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15:05:56 <fsasaki> scribe: shaunm
15:06:20 <fsasaki> topic: agenda
15:06:20 <fsasaki> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-multilingualweb-lt/2013Feb/0241.html
15:06:43 <fsasaki> topic: High level usage scenario doc publication
15:07:05 <fsasaki> http://www.w3.org/International/multilingualweb/lt/wiki/Use_cases_-_high_level_summary
15:07:24 <fsasaki> - having Christian editing the doc until next Monday - vote for publication 6 March call - publication 8 March
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15:07:41 <fsasaki> next monday = 4 march
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15:08:01 <leroy> present+ leroy
15:08:19 <shaunm> fsasaki: publishing march 8. last date before the workshop
15:08:27 <mdelolmo> present+ mdelolmo
15:08:37 <shaunm> fsasaki: Please go through your use cases
15:08:42 <fsasaki> topic: HTML ITS default behaviour
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15:09:11 <Giuseppe> present + Giuseppe
15:09:22 <Milan> present+ Milan
15:09:38 <Giuseppe> present+ Giuseppe
15:09:44 <shaunm> Yves_: there is discrepancy in behavior between different data categories in HTML
15:10:04 <shaunm> Yves_: when an author marks up a document because of different behavior in different tools
15:10:30 <shaunm> Yves_: we don't specify things like the <b> element should be withinText
15:11:13 <fsasaki> ITS 1.0 global rules are at http://www.w3.org/TR/xml-i18n-bp/#relating-its-plus-xhtml
15:11:14 <shaunm> Yves_: have a set of global rules for HTML that implementors must use
15:11:59 <shaunm> Yves_: if you don't implement global rules, this won't work. instead have default attributes
15:12:08 <fsasaki> default implementation proposal at http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-multilingualweb-lt/2013Feb/0235.html
15:12:10 <shaunm> Yves_: implementation of such defaults is probably difficult
15:12:18 <tadej> present+ tadej
15:12:32 <fsasaki> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-multilingualweb-lt/2013Feb/0243.html
15:13:41 <shaunm> Yves_: implementation is not a problem for okapi
15:14:21 <fsasaki> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-multilingualweb-lt/2013Feb/0205.html
15:15:12 <shaunm> pnietoca: some MT systems hardcode translation of some attributes
15:15:16 <fsasaki> https://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=21085
15:16:32 <shaunm> Yves_: currently html translate affects attribute and its:translate does not
15:17:28 <fsasaki> http://www.w3.org/TR/2012/WD-its20-20121206/#datacategories-defaults-etc
15:17:51 <shaunm> kfritsche: in our implementation, we use defaults
15:18:22 <Marcis> Will there be a list of defaults somewhere specified? We are currently adding Elements Within Text rules within HTML documents...
15:18:58 <pnietoca> q+
15:19:17 <fsasaki> ack pnietoca
15:19:43 <shaunm> pnietoca: we use global rules for translate, for instance.
15:20:03 <shaunm> pnietoca: if some people don't use it, you have to hardcode which attributes to translate
15:20:53 <shaunm> kfritsche: is this the proposal to change the default values in table 8.1?
15:21:14 <shaunm> Yves_: proposal is to have in the html specification information on defaults
15:21:39 <shaunm> fsasaki: or we could provide a global rules file
15:21:50 <shaunm> fsasaki: I was proposing the defaults for people only doing its locally
15:22:23 <shaunm> Yves_: there's a discrepancy between defaults and global rules because of overriding
15:23:15 <shaunm> Yves_: people who don't implement ITS globally just have to make sure the behavior with defaults matches what it would be with default values
15:24:11 <fsasaki> shaun: issue of not knowing what you are overriding with local attributes - that is an issue with any format right?
15:24:13 <fsasaki> yves: yes
15:24:23 <fsasaki> shaun: who are the implementers who don't do global rules?
15:24:36 <fsasaki> http://htmlpreview.github.com/?https://raw.github.com/finnle/ITS-2.0-Testsuite/master/its2.0/testSuiteDashboard.html
15:25:04 <fsasaki> it seems everybody of the implementers currently on the table, do global rules
15:25:20 <fsasaki> karl: new implementers might do local markup only - we should be aware of that
15:26:16 <fsasaki> shaun: there is no implementation difficulty for me either way
15:26:56 <shaunm> fsasaki: propose not to close this issue too fast
15:27:28 <shaunm> fsasaki: other people not on the call might have different opinions
15:28:16 <shaunm> Yves_: implementors could look at their implementations to see how difficult defaults versus global rules is
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15:28:56 <shaunm> fsasaki: give implementors a week, come back to issue next wednesday
15:28:57 <daveL> present+ davelewis
15:29:05 <daveL> apologies for joining late
15:30:12 <fsasaki> topic: https://www.w3.org/International/multilingualweb/lt/track/issues/68
15:31:10 <fsasaki> see draft + example files here http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-multilingualweb-lt/2013Feb/0221.html
15:31:16 <shaunm> tadej: no major contents changes. sent a draft to the mailing list
15:31:39 <shaunm> tadej: we are dropping granularity levels, renaming to text analysis, clarified some
15:33:32 <fsasaki> action: christian to edit issue-68 proposal at http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-multilingualweb-lt/2013Feb/0221.html into the its2 draft
15:33:32 <trackbot> Created ACTION-451 - Edit issue-68 proposal at http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-multilingualweb-lt/2013Feb/0221.html into the its2 draft [on Christian Lieske - due 2013-03-04].
15:33:41 <fsasaki> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-multilingualweb-lt/2013Feb/att-0221/ta-examples-20130222.zip
15:35:27 <shaunm> omstefanov: all the file names in the test suite still refer to disambiguation
15:35:41 <shaunm> tadej: should we rename all the files?
15:36:00 <shaunm> leroy: yes, and move to directories named for the category
15:36:51 <fsasaki> topic: Conformance type
15:37:15 <fsasaki> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-multilingualweb-lt-comments/2013Feb/0048.html
15:37:39 <shaunm> fsasaki: needs input from Phil. Phil not present today
15:37:50 <fsasaki> topic: XLIFF mapping
15:39:02 <shaunm> daveL: xliff round-trip examples for rome help use work through some issues
15:39:58 <shaunm> daveL: we need separate discussions on how best to present that as best practices. don't spend time on that now. maybe in rome
15:40:41 <shaunm> Yves_: while discussing terminology, we realized when you tag something in xliff, we don't have a way to mark it up with ITS in the original document
15:40:49 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2013/02/25-mlw-lt-minutes.html fsasaki
15:41:39 <Marcis> A question: if we add mark-up to XLIFF, should we use the mrk or its:span annotation?
15:42:11 <shaunm> daveL: in XLIFF we can add things after authoring time; don't have local markup for these in ITS
15:43:03 <Yves_> to marcis: <mrk> (you can't have <its:span> in XLIFF)
15:45:39 <shaunm> Yves_: you can add ITS attributes to <mrk>. some are redundant with XLIFF attributes
15:46:08 <fsasaki> http://www.w3.org/International/multilingualweb/lt/wiki/XLIFF_Mapping
15:47:34 <shaunm> daveL: three use cases: mapping from source format to XLIFF, mapping from XLIFF to target format, marking up XLIFF to be consumed in XLIFF in another process
15:47:49 <shaunm> daveL: ideally have the same markup in all those cases, but might not be possible
15:50:41 <fsasaki> topic: Unicode normalization / NIF comments , ITS Ontology
15:51:17 <fsasaki> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-multilingualweb-lt-comments/2013Feb/0050.html
15:52:55 <shaunm> fsasaki: don't require normalization in other technologies. propose to close issue
15:53:37 <fsasaki> https://www.w3.org/International/multilingualweb/lt/track/issues/119
15:53:44 <fsasaki> http://www.w3.org/International/multilingualweb/lt/wiki/ITS-RDF_mapping#Ontology_.28DRAFT.29
15:54:43 <shaunm> daveL: expanded that out of example in NIF
15:55:24 <shaunm> daveL: took a Relax NG schema and went through data categories to see which could be used in RDF and NIF
15:55:30 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2013/02/25-mlw-lt-minutes.html fsasaki
15:55:46 <shaunm> daveL: appreciate feedback
15:56:10 <shaunm> daveL: haven't figured out what we need to do with annotators ref. works out in provenance setting, but maybe not NIF
15:56:37 <shaunm> daveL: problems where we've introduced idea that order has temporal relationship
15:58:33 <fsasaki> topic: AOB / Rome / Luxembourg prep
15:58:48 <fsasaki> http://www.doodle.com/2uizhdqmbmw6qwa9
15:59:18 <shaunm> fsasaki: have a call to prepare for rome meeting. please fill in doodle poll
16:01:19 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2013/02/25-mlw-lt-minutes.html fsasaki
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