IRC log of eo on 2013-02-22

Timestamps are in UTC.

13:26:34 [RRSAgent]
RRSAgent has joined #eo
13:26:34 [RRSAgent]
logging to
13:26:36 [trackbot]
RRSAgent, make logs world
13:26:36 [Zakim]
Zakim has joined #eo
13:26:38 [trackbot]
Zakim, this will be 3694
13:26:38 [Zakim]
ok, trackbot; I see WAI_EOWG()8:30AM scheduled to start in 4 minutes
13:26:39 [trackbot]
Meeting: Education and Outreach Working Group Teleconference
13:26:39 [trackbot]
Date: 22 February 2013
13:27:16 [AnnaBelle]
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13:27:56 [Sharron]
Chair: Shawn
13:28:01 [Sharron]
Scribe: Sharron
13:28:29 [Sharron]
Regrets: Emmanuelle, Sylvie, Suzette, Andrew, Vicki, Shadi, Helle, Ian
13:29:02 [Zakim]
WAI_EOWG()8:30AM has now started
13:29:08 [Zakim]
13:29:14 [Zakim]
13:30:35 [Zakim]
+ +1.615.936.aaaa
13:31:48 [Sharron]
zakim, aaaa is Anna Belle
13:31:48 [Zakim]
I don't understand 'aaaa is Anna Belle', Sharron
13:32:25 [Sharron]
zakim, 1.615.936.aaaa is AnnaBelle
13:32:25 [Zakim]
sorry, Sharron, I do not recognize a party named '1.615.936.aaaa'
13:32:43 [Bim]
zakim, call bim-617
13:32:43 [Zakim]
ok, Bim; the call is being made
13:32:44 [Sharron]
zakim, aaaa is AnnaBelle
13:32:44 [Zakim]
13:32:44 [Zakim]
+AnnaBelle; got it
13:33:54 [Bim]
zakim, mute me
13:33:54 [Zakim]
Bim should now be muted
13:34:39 [LiamM]
LiamM has joined #eo
13:35:10 [Zakim]
13:35:42 [Sharron]
Topic: Indie-UI Overview
13:35:48 [shawn]
13:35:59 [Zakim]
13:36:43 [Sharron]
Shawn: Wanted to check in, make sure folks had seen the updated image. We are starting to use it but may update with color. I personally like it in black and white.
13:37:00 [Sharron]
AnnaBelle: I do too but maybe just gotten used to it.
13:37:50 [Bim]
ack me
13:38:02 [Sharron]
Shawn: Thanks to Emmanuelle for noticing that we had omitted keyboard access. Intersting that she had not found the omissin in the text, but noticed from the illustratin.
13:38:17 [Sharron]
Bim: Is the page being checked on lower resolution?
13:38:50 [Zakim]
+ +1.650.348.aabb
13:38:50 [Sharron]
...the page content seems to floatup. Perhaps that is where it is meant to be?
13:39:09 [Bim]
zakim, mute me
13:39:09 [Zakim]
Bim should now be muted
13:39:12 [Sharron]
zakim, aabb is Jennifer
13:39:12 [Zakim]
+Jennifer; got it
13:39:31 [Zakim]
13:39:51 [LiamM]
Zakim, [IPcaller] is LiamM
13:39:51 [Zakim]
+LiamM; got it
13:40:10 [Sharron]
Shawn: If anyone has suggestions please send along. Indie UI has both events and user context. Before publication, would be great to have illustration on that as well.
13:40:43 [Sharron]
...will keep you posted on progress so we can be sure that people understand both are important.
13:41:11 [Sharron]
Topic: FYI on upcoming work
13:41:48 [Sharron]
Shawn: I hope that everyone saw on the WAI-IG list the announcement of publication of the Training Resource Suite.
13:42:49 [Sharron]
...Jennifer pointed out that we had been considering how to include accessiiblity in their course and promotion of that Suite. Won't shift group focus to that but wanted it to be at the back of everyone's mind. And perhaps re-look at using BAD for teaching.
13:42:53 [Sharron]
13:43:26 [Sharron]
...other thing is WCAG-EM which we considered when we were together in Lyon.
13:43:50 [Sharron]
...updated working draft will be announced next week at CSUN. Comments will be due by 33 March.
13:44:46 [Sharron]
...we have talked for years about Application Notes - for example, How to Make Acessible Tables, How to...Forms, etc. Bim is working on Notes. Eo will review them as they will be EO documents.
13:45:00 [Bim]
ack me
13:45:06 [Sharron]
...they are deliverables for our WG so we will be reviewing and approving.
13:45:25 [Sharron]
Bim: Yes, that is my understanding as well. This is all part of EO deliverables.
13:45:40 [Sharron]
Shawn: The Notes are based on EO discussions from the past.
13:46:29 [shawn]
[Draft] Analysis for "Application Notes"
13:47:19 [Bim]
zakim, mute me
13:47:19 [Zakim]
Bim should now be muted
13:47:21 [Sharron]
Bim: I am basing my work on these.
13:47:35 [Sharron]
Shawn: Any questions or comments on upcoming work?
13:47:51 [Sharron]
Topic: WCAG-EM Overview
13:47:54 [shawn]
13:48:41 [Sharron]
Shawn: Reminder it is a conformance evaluation ,methodology that the Task Force is collaborating with WCAG-WG to develop.
13:49:25 [Sharron]
...we had previously drafted an introduction. The plan is to replace the old Conformance Evaluation page with this Overview.
13:50:42 [Sharron]
...WCAG-EM got delayed and so now that we are coming up on an announcement next week, the question is do we publish WCAG-EM without an Overview, or do we put this in place and continue to refine it?
13:51:03 [shawn]
zakim, who is on the phone?
13:51:03 [Zakim]
On the phone I see Shawn, Sharron, Bim (muted), AnnaBelle, Jennifer, LiamM
13:51:26 [Sharron]
...the question is "Is EO comfortable with replacing the current Conformance Evaluation with this Overview?"
13:52:24 [Bim]
ack me
13:53:02 [Bim]
zakim, mute me
13:53:02 [Zakim]
Bim should now be muted
13:54:25 [Bim]
ack me
13:55:51 [Sharron]
Sharron: "general idea" in second paragraph needs to be racheted even further down.
13:56:10 [Sharron]
Bim: As an overview I think it is good, gives the right level of informaiton.
13:56:22 [Sharron]
Jennifer: It works for me
13:56:29 [Bim]
zakim, mute me
13:56:29 [Zakim]
Bim should now be muted
13:56:55 [LiamM]
Good to go, tweak later.
13:56:57 [Sharron]
AnnaBelle: I don't enough about what it is replacing, it seems fine.
13:57:10 [Sharron]
Sharron: Yes, I am comfortabel replacing the old page
13:58:00 [Bim]
ack me
13:58:37 [Sharron]
Shawn: The old Preliminary Review page is still in place. We are not yet ready to replace it with the Easy Checks, but one possibility is to add a prominant note that we are in process of revision and point to the WAI page Draft that is now in the WAI pages (not the wiki)e
13:58:45 [Bim]
zakim, mute me
13:58:45 [Zakim]
Bim should now be muted
13:59:02 [Sharron]
Bim: Yes, to link from new work to something so outdated would be a mistake without the note.
13:59:29 [Sharron]
RESOLUTION: Replace old Conformance Eval page with new WCAG-EM Overview
14:00:00 [Sharron]
RESOLUTION: On old PreLim Evaluation page add prominant note linking to current Draft of Easy Checks.
14:00:19 [Sharron]
Shawn: Let's take this to the next topic
14:00:42 [Sharron]
Topic: Agenda for EO Face to Face meeting
14:01:41 [Sharron]
Shawn: Reminder to think about what kind of work is best for us to do there in person with longer periods of time. Good opportunity for brainstorming. What are your ideas for geenral things to get done at the F2F
14:01:57 [Bim]
ack me
14:02:19 [Bim]
zakim, mute me
14:02:19 [Zakim]
Bim should now be muted
14:05:03 [Sharron]
Shawn: On Tuesday we will announce WCAG-EM updated working draft. Do we work on the Overview or place the draft as is with the understanding that we can wordsmith later on?
14:05:55 [Sharron]
Sharron: Might want to take one final look before publication.
14:06:13 [Sharron]
...or maybe not -?-
14:06:39 [Sharron]
Shawn: We can put it on the agenda for a short period and just make sure it is OK
14:06:48 [Sharron]
Jennifer: I support that.
14:07:13 [Sharron]
Shawn: OK what else should we work on at the F2F? (see agenda for the list)
14:13:01 [shawn]
Sharron: Participating in WAI is really important
14:13:16 [shawn]
also tries into a lot of other work
14:13:28 [shawn]
14:13:47 [shawn]
we also need to get back to outreach to the community
14:14:15 [Sharron]
Sharron: WAI-participation and all that it relates to
14:14:46 [Sharron]
Shawn: Does that seem like a good brunch discussion?
14:14:56 [Sharron]
Jennifer: I was thinking along that line as well.
14:15:30 [Sharron]
AnnaBelle: I get excited about the potential of working on the Web Platform dcs
14:16:21 [Sharron]
Jennifer: I am not sure how to do it, see a lot of momentum building around that and see a real importance to finding a way to incorporate our work into that.
14:16:42 [Sharron] would be really good for us to be part of that momentum
14:17:00 [Sharron]
Shawn: There was tremendous buzz around the release, is it continuing?
14:17:24 [Sharron]
Jennifer: Yes, there are a series of "sprints" all around the world. Creates buzz each time.
14:17:54 [Sharron]
AnnaBelle: I see mentions in the blogosphere and always think I would like to be more involved.
14:18:51 [Sharron]
Jennifer: It could be a quick logistical thing: Go through Action Items and close them or re-assign to others or something. In 15 or 20 minutes all together, we could clear them up, update, or re-assign.
14:19:02 [Sharron]
Sharron: Great idea!
14:19:22 [Sharron]
Jennifer: I saw we could close quite a few and give us the sense of accomplishment
14:19:48 [Sharron]
Shawn: Sjarron, I closed one of your items.
14:20:48 [Sharron]
Jennifer: Remember the doc for User Requirements for media, I don't know where the group (Protocols and Formats) is on that one, but I would be happy to work on it some more.
14:21:11 [Sharron]
Shawn: Latest expectation is to get to it in Q2
14:21:48 [Sharron] is the group that develops all W3C specifications to ensure that they include accessiiblity
14:22:09 [Sharron]
...we might want to link to that in the Easy Checks
14:22:25 [Sharron]
Jennifer: Yes, that occured to me when reviewing the EasyChacks
14:22:40 [shawn]
editor's draft <>
14:22:45 [Sharron]
s/EasyChacks/Easy Checks
14:23:59 [Sharron]
ACTION: Shawn to contact PF to ensure that EO reviews User Requirements for Media again before it gets published
14:23:59 [trackbot]
Created ACTION-274 - Contact PF to ensure that EO reviews User Requirements for Media again before it gets published [on Shawn Henry - due 2013-03-01].
14:24:23 [Sharron]
Jennifer: And let's figure out how I can help with this.
14:25:51 [Sharron]
Jennifer: So as it is now, I don't think we should link to it. But we should not forget to link to it down the road as it is improved.
14:26:03 [Sharron]
Shawn: Agreed. OK, what other possibilities for F2F?
14:26:44 [Sharron]
Sharron: Don't we have decisions to make beyond wordsmithing on the Easy Checks?
14:27:21 [Sharron]
...are you saying that everything currently in the wiki will be on the WAI page next week for the User testing?
14:27:35 [Sharron]
...becasue if not, how will we do the user testing?
14:27:42 [Sharron]
Shawn: Let's look at that next.
14:28:12 [Sharron] the emantime, is there anything else we should do at the F2F?
14:28:20 [shawn]
Eval main page <>
14:28:35 [Sharron]
14:29:35 [Sharron]
Shawn: Good to spend time on WCAG-EM review just to get on the same page about expectations?
14:29:49 [Sharron]
Sharron: Seems reasonable, but not a lot of time needed?
14:30:08 [Sharron]
Shawn: Yes and depending on where we go with Easy Checks we may/may not have much time to spend.
14:30:29 [Sharron]
...I will draft an agenda with the understanding that we can change on the fly as needed.
14:30:36 [Sharron]
Topic: Easy Checks
14:30:47 [shawn]
WAI page with some topics: <>
14:30:58 [shawn]
wiki page with other topics: <>
14:31:44 [Sharron]
Shawn: As of now, the WAI page with Easy Checks includes page tiles, images and headings. In wiki, we still have many others that have not been formalized.
14:34:08 [shawn]
Sharron: Keyboard Access in oretty good shape. In place where could be reasonabley understoof & could get data from usability testing to help refine
14:34:54 [Sharron]
Sharron: I think Forms, Keyboard, Media are in good enough shape to move to to the WAI page with understanding that they open for revision, even extensive revision based on user testing
14:36:14 [Sharron]
Jennifer: I might be able to get a couple of people to test but remember it is crazy at CSUN and people's time is valuable there. So an incomplete page might be better becasue it reduces the time commitment.
14:36:34 [Sharron]
Shawn: Agree we don't want to go back and forth to the wiki. Let's look at those sections.
14:39:16 [Sharron]
Jennifer: If we get too formal, we have to manage it.
14:42:56 [LiamM]
Much prefer usability to user
14:43:16 [LiamM]
Or ux testing
14:43:35 [Sharron]
Shawn: User testing can be understood as testing the user. I prefer the term usability testing. Can we try to use that term instead. And actually as it is so informal, we may even use another term. We can go over on M and T exactly what we are doing and how to talk about it.
14:43:54 [Sharron]
AnnaBelle: Yes want to make clear that we are testign the web site, not the user.
14:43:56 [shawn]
14:44:07 [Sharron]
Shawn: Let's look at media section
14:47:54 [shawn]
q+ to say auto caption?
14:47:57 [LiamM]
I think this is perfectly coherent! Including 'are the captions in sync'
14:48:02 [Bim]
ack me
14:49:00 [Bim]
zakim, mute me
14:49:00 [Zakim]
Bim should now be muted
14:51:02 [Bim]
14:51:07 [LiamM]
Too complicated for this doc.
14:51:26 [Sharron]
All: Discussion of current media content
14:51:43 [shawn]
ack me
14:51:43 [Zakim]
shawn, you wanted to say auto caption?
14:52:08 [Sharron]
Jennifer: Is there a compromise, not write specifcally about that, just say are they in sync and accurate?
14:52:29 [Sharron]
...not go into detail about why they might / might not be.
14:53:54 [Sharron]
Shawn: Possible and the person doing the check would then decide how much time they wish to spend. My question is if I am a prelim reviewer. I see there are captions, but if I don't know to look for the inaccuracies of auto-captioning, how would I review properly. if the first few things are in sync and are accurate.
14:54:12 [Sharron] it common enough of an issue.
14:56:02 [Sharron]
Shawn: if so, we should say something briefly about it.
14:56:09 [LiamM]
You have to switch it on
14:58:24 [Bim]
ack me
14:58:27 [Sharron]
Shawn: so like with audio description, we may want to give enough info to let them know what auto captions are
14:58:35 [Bim]
zakim, mute me
14:58:35 [Zakim]
Bim should now be muted
14:58:39 [Sharron]
...any objections?
14:59:00 [LiamM]
14:59:01 [Sharron]
ACTION: Sharron to add breif explanation of auto-captions to intro in media section
14:59:02 [trackbot]
Created ACTION-275 - Add breif explanation of auto-captions to intro in media section [on Sharron Rush - due 2013-03-01].
15:00:28 [Sharron]
Sharron: Is it sufficient to reference the logos in the media player bar?
15:01:07 [Sharron]
Shawn: No, I would need to know that if the logo is NOT there, it does not have audio description?
15:02:49 [Sharron]
...or if there is another version with AD is that sufficinet?
15:03:05 [Sharron]
Shawn: It needs to be quite clear that the toggle is quite rare.
15:03:27 [Sharron]
...and so we need to call out that there is a more common alternative.
15:05:25 [Sharron]
ACTION: Sharron to edit audio description to reflect that the provision on a separate track is rare.
15:05:25 [trackbot]
Created ACTION-276 - Edit audio description to reflect that the provision on a separate track is rare. [on Sharron Rush - due 2013-03-01].
15:05:29 [Bim]
ack me
15:06:23 [Bim]
zakim, mute me
15:06:23 [Zakim]
Bim should now be muted
15:06:48 [shawn] says: Audio description - required only for relevant visuals not already covered in what's said. (Audio description says what's in the visuals, so it's available to people who are blind.) Most W3C video won't need audio description. For example, you do not need audio description for talking heads only, or for text on slides as long as the slide text is woven
15:06:48 [shawn]
into what you say. You might need audio description of things like charts and diagrams.
15:08:17 [shawn]
text in video
15:16:53 [shawn]
15:17:39 [LiamM]
LiamM has joined #eo
15:17:49 [Zakim]
15:19:00 [LiamM]
Suggest avoid using 'keyboard focus' without explaining it.
15:19:15 [LiamM]
Opera has its own way of kb nav.
15:19:16 [Bim]
ack me
15:19:29 [LiamM]
Q,a,w,s etc.
15:19:54 [LiamM]
Kb nav is spatial as well as sequential.
15:20:14 [LiamM]
(wish my mic was working)
15:21:10 [LiamM]
I can research Opera if you like.
15:21:45 [LiamM]
It is great, yes.
15:21:45 [LiamM]
15:21:58 [Bim]
zakim, mute me
15:21:58 [Zakim]
Bim should now be muted
15:22:16 [LiamM]
Ur what to look for
15:22:27 [LiamM]
15:22:37 [shawn]
"Verify that any visual changes that occur with mouse hover also are triggered with keyboard focus"
15:22:42 [Sharron]
ACTION: Liam will investigate what to say about Opera in relation to keyboard
15:22:42 [trackbot]
Created ACTION-277 - Will investigate what to say about Opera in relation to keyboard [on Liam McGee - due 2013-03-01].
15:23:02 [LiamM]
Show picture of default kb focus.
15:23:43 [LiamM]
Especially menu elements!
15:26:03 [Sharron]
Shawn: How much do we want to look at this at the F2F and Zoom and Color/Constrast
15:27:11 [Sharron]
...shall we talk about these at F2F?
15:27:36 [Sharron]
Sharron: To get in shape to use in usability testing?
15:28:01 [Sharron]
Shawn: What do you think abut that? we could still be editing and working in the wiki?
15:28:13 [Sharron]
Sharron: Yes, I think that is a good goal.
15:28:29 [Sharron]
Shawn: Great, we have a plan. I'll work on agenda and send draft.
15:28:41 [Bim]
ack me
15:28:49 [LiamM]
Sorry :(
15:29:16 [AnnaBelle]
Do I need an action item for Mac testing?
15:29:45 [LiamM]
15:30:41 [Sharron]
ACTION: AnnaBelle to investigate keyboard test parameters for Mac
15:30:41 [trackbot]
Error finding 'AnnaBelle'. You can review and register nicknames at <>.
15:30:58 [Sharron]
ACTION: Anna Belle to investigate keyboard test parameters for Mac
15:30:59 [trackbot]
Created ACTION-278 - Belle to investigate keyboard test parameters for Mac [on Anna Belle Leiserson - due 2013-03-01].
15:31:48 [Sharron]
trackbot, end meeting
15:31:48 [trackbot]
Zakim, list attendees
15:31:48 [Zakim]
As of this point the attendees have been Shawn, Sharron, +1.615.936.aaaa, Bim, AnnaBelle, +1.650.348.aabb, Jennifer, LiamM
15:31:54 [Zakim]
15:31:56 [Zakim]
15:31:56 [trackbot]
RRSAgent, please draft minutes
15:31:56 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate trackbot
15:31:57 [trackbot]
RRSAgent, bye
15:31:57 [RRSAgent]
I see 6 open action items saved in :
15:31:57 [RRSAgent]
ACTION: Shawn to contact PF to ensure that EO reviews User Requirements for Media again before it gets published [1]
15:31:57 [RRSAgent]
recorded in
15:31:57 [RRSAgent]
ACTION: Sharron to add breif explanation of auto-captions to intro in media section [2]
15:31:57 [RRSAgent]
recorded in
15:31:57 [RRSAgent]
ACTION: Sharron to edit audio description to reflect that the provision on a separate track is rare. [3]
15:31:57 [RRSAgent]
recorded in
15:31:57 [RRSAgent]
ACTION: Liam will investigate what to say about Opera in relation to keyboard [4]
15:31:57 [RRSAgent]
recorded in
15:31:57 [RRSAgent]
ACTION: AnnaBelle to investigate keyboard test parameters for Mac [5]
15:31:57 [RRSAgent]
recorded in
15:31:57 [RRSAgent]
ACTION: Anna Belle to investigate keyboard test parameters for Mac [6]
15:31:57 [RRSAgent]
recorded in
15:31:57 [Zakim]
15:31:58 [Zakim]
15:32:00 [Zakim]
15:32:01 [Zakim]
WAI_EOWG()8:30AM has ended
15:32:01 [Zakim]
Attendees were Shawn, Sharron, +1.615.936.aaaa, Bim, AnnaBelle, +1.650.348.aabb, Jennifer, LiamM