16:25:15 RRSAgent has joined #css 16:25:15 logging to http://www.w3.org/2013/02/20-css-irc 16:25:20 zakim, this will be Style 16:25:20 ok, glazou; I see Style_CSS FP()12:00PM scheduled to start in 35 minutes 16:25:25 RRSAgent, make logs public 16:27:20 lmclister has joined #css 16:29:28 antonp has joined #css 16:34:52 cabanier has joined #css 16:41:18 sylvaing_ has joined #css 16:54:47 Zakim, code? 16:54:47 the conference code is 78953 (tel:+1.617.761.6200 sip:zakim@voip.w3.org), glazou 16:55:17 Style_CSS FP()12:00PM has now started 16:55:23 +??P31 16:55:28 Zakim, ??P31 is me 16:55:28 +glazou; got it 16:55:37 dbaron has joined #css 16:56:10 + +1.415.832.aaaa 16:56:19 +SylvaIng 16:56:22 Zakim, aaaa is me 16:56:22 +krit; got it 16:56:37 djackson has joined #css 16:57:15 tantek has joined #css 16:57:24 +??P42 16:57:25 oyvind has joined #css 16:57:38 Zakim, ??P42 is me 16:57:38 +darktears; got it 16:57:40 + +1.610.324.aabb 16:58:13 + +97362aacc 16:59:13 Zakim, aabb is djackson 16:59:13 +djackson; got it 16:59:39 +[Apple] 16:59:50 Zakim, Apple has me 16:59:50 +hober; got it 17:00:11 that's not dino 17:00:14 dino is on my line 17:00:32 +??P61 17:00:51 +plinss 17:01:03 JohnJansen has joined #CSS 17:01:08 +fantasai 17:01:18 bradk has joined #css 17:01:27 zakim, code? 17:01:27 the conference code is 78953 (tel:+1.617.761.6200 sip:zakim@voip.w3.org), nvdbleek 17:01:31 +dbaron 17:01:35 SimonSapin1 has joined #css 17:01:57 smfr has joined #css 17:02:00 sylvaing, how many animation issues to discuss ? 17:02:07 I have 5 17:02:09 ok 17:02:14 time allocated ? 17:02:26 Let's say 20mn? 17:02:30 +[Microsoft] 17:02:31 perfect sylvaing 17:02:43 jdaggett has joined #css 17:02:46 ScribeNick: fantasai 17:02:46 + +1.415.615.aadd 17:02:49 +smfr 17:02:50 +SimonSapin 17:02:56 Zakim, Microsoft has JohnJansen 17:02:57 +JohnJansen; got it 17:03:19 Zakim, aadd is rhauck 17:03:19 +rhauck; got it 17:03:21 \o/ Zakim got the right nick for me this time 17:03:28 lucky you... 17:03:49 +nvdbleek 17:04:12 dino has joined #css 17:04:21 Zakim, Apple has dino 17:04:21 +dino; got it 17:04:22 Zakim, aacc is antonp 17:04:22 +antonp; got it 17:04:29 rhauck has joined #css 17:04:41 + +1.650.275.aaee 17:04:59 Zakim, aaee is me 17:05:01 +bradk; got it 17:05:05 Zakim, who's noisy? 17:05:14 dino, ROFL 17:05:16 smfr, listening for 10 seconds I heard sound from the following: rhauck (16%), bradk (3%), fantasai (11%) 17:05:27 I don't think the noise was me, but I muted my phone anyway 17:05:34 +SteveZ 17:05:37 zakim, mute me 17:05:37 nvdbleek should now be muted 17:05:50 glazou: Extra items? 17:06:08 krit: Edited Masking spec, would like to ask for review 17:06:14 +??P80 17:06:24 zakim, ++p80 is me 17:06:24 sorry, jdaggett, I do not recognize a party named '++p80' 17:06:28 SimonSapin: Proposal for adding percentages to column-width/column-gap 17:06:29 s/ask for review/ask for review by email, is that ok?/ 17:06:39 zakim, ??p80 is me 17:06:39 +jdaggett; got it 17:06:39 glazou: You wondered if doable in CR. Let's discuss that after animations 17:06:40 +Tantek 17:06:41 glazou: Anything else? 17:06:47 Zakim, mute Tantek 17:06:47 Tantek should now be muted 17:06:49 + +1.832.797.aaff 17:06:56 glazou: Start with Animations, b/c sylvain on call for last time 17:06:59 Topic: Animations 17:07:07 sylvaing: Any objections to adding Rossen as editor to Animations? 17:07:20 RESOLVED: Add Rossen as editor to Animations 17:07:36 LOL case sensitivity... 17:07:37 smfr has changed the topic to: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-style/2013Feb/0461.html 17:07:39 sylvaing: Clarification for me, case-sensitivity of user-defined idents was resolved in Tucson. Is that in CSS3 Values yet? 17:07:57 TabAtkins: Don't think edit has made it in yet, but will do today. 17:08:01 sylvaing: Ok, will refer to that. 17:08:05 http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-style/2011Sep/0392.html 17:08:41 sylvaing: Current wording ignores multiple values, multiple keyframes, etc. 17:08:42 SteveZ has joined #css 17:08:52 sylvaing: Oyvind proposed some text. 17:09:00 [see email] 17:09:10 sylvaing: I think good idea to clarify that. 17:09:24 +1 to clarifying that text 17:09:24 dbaron: There was an interop issue with definition of valid @keyframes rule 17:09:37 dbaron: Previous decision on that, make sure it's clear too 17:09:55 RESOLVED: Oyvind's clarification accepted for http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-style/2011Sep/0392.html 17:09:59 https://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=14805 17:10:14 sylvaing: Question from dbaron on using timing functions inside keyframe rules 17:10:26 sylvaing: Understood that if you have timing function on keyframe rule, .. next one 17:10:34 sylvaing: What if you're going in a different direction, e.g. reverse / alternate? 17:10:39 http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-style/2011Mar/0744.html 17:10:51 sylvaing: When you go from N to N+1, you always use timing function defined in frame N. 17:10:58 dino: Intended, but not written. Sorry. Yes. 17:11:13 TabAtkins: Timing function on a keyframe defines that particular gap, regardless which way you're going. 17:11:25 dino: Maybe add to spec that animation literally runs in reverse 17:11:28 dbaron: Except it doesn't 17:11:31 dbaron: I don't think it does. 17:11:34 dino: ? 17:11:50 dbaron: Do we reduce the math of the timing function, or ue the appropriate timing function? 17:11:53 s/ue/use/ 17:12:12 dbaron: e.g. if you have ease-in(), then you ease-in() to that point regardless of direciton. 17:12:20 glazou: Right, so we are not reversing animation per se 17:12:47 [...] 17:12:54 sylvaing: What does Gecko do? 17:12:56 dbaron: Have to check 17:13:18 dino: we process value from 0 - 1, [...] so timing function does actually play backwards when you go in a reverse order 17:13:34 dino: If you're 10% through reverse, we calculate as if 90% of going forwards 17:13:52 glazou: Ok, let's defer resolution of this issue until dino's email 17:14:04 sylvaing: Yes, and we should check implementations. I think we do what Gecko does 17:14:06 you mean, you think IE does the same thing that I *think* Gecko does? :-) 17:14:13 LOL 17:14:14 sylvaing: But don't think it's a major breaking change if we have to swap it. 17:14:33 smfr: Think we don't what to change WebKit. And intent is that reverse is a mirror image of the forward animation. 17:14:43 https://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=15848 17:14:53 http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-style/2009Dec/0280.html 17:15:03 sylvaing: Prose in spec about defining start of animation 17:15:15 sylvaing: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-style/2009Dec/0280.html 17:15:16 # The start time of an animation is the latter of two moments: the 17:15:16 # time at which the style is resolved that specifies the 17:15:16 # animation, or the time the document's load event is fired. 17:15:28 sylvaing: Hard one to test, and not exactly what browsers do, really 17:15:42 sylvaing: I'm wondering, what is the point of this statement? 17:15:51 sylvaing: Or is it really, animation applies when the animation-name property is resolved? 17:16:03 smfr: in WebKit we did start until document load, but that's no longer true. 17:16:11 dbaron: Don't think it was true at the time I implemented animations in Gecko 17:16:26 sylvaing: Also, hard to test. Interesting implementation details, not sure how you'd test across browsers. 17:16:36 sylvaing: Should really say it applies at the time the animation-name property is resolved. 17:16:43 sylvaing: Of course, we're getting to, we don't define when things are computed. 17:16:48 sylvaing: But document load is bogus. 17:17:11 krit: Does that mean that document is loaded (onload), or all required parts loaded (e.g. all style sheets) 17:17:31 krit: When you have document load, can you be sure style is resolved for all parts of the document? 17:17:42 TabAtkins: [...] 17:17:53 sylvaing: Why does it matter? 17:18:05 krit: For SVG, when the document is read for complete rendering, that's when animations start. 17:18:16 smfr: We specced that way for CSS originally, then changed our minds 17:18:23 krit: Might need to align SVG to this then 17:18:41 sylvaing: Sadly, don't think we have priority on when things are computed. 17:18:49 dino has joined #css 17:18:55 sylvaing: Don't want to leave statement in there that doesn't agree with implementations. 17:19:06 rhauck1 has joined #css 17:19:09 dbaron: I think we need to fix this to match what everyone is doing, b/c we all agree that this is wrong. 17:19:14 isherman has joined #css 17:19:32 sylvaing: Think it goes back to resolution earlier, animation applies when animation-name is computed, and have last valid @keyframe in sorted order. That's it 17:20:06 krit: Suppose you have huge document, like HTML5 spec, animation on one of first elements that get rendered. 17:20:30 krit: Do animations wait until whole document is loaded? 17:20:44 dbaron: we all implemented that they start before the whole document is loaded 17:20:48 krit: Then how do you align animations? 17:20:49 liam has joined #css 17:20:58 sylvaing: When this is resolved is up to UA. 17:21:00 alexmog_away has joined #css 17:21:05 CSSWG_LogBot has joined #css 17:21:09 sylvaing: Whenever value computation occurs. 17:21:22 krit: Can we add a sentence that says this might be more precise in the future? 17:21:29 zakim, mute me 17:21:29 nvdbleek was already muted, nvdbleek 17:21:30 csswg has joined #css 17:21:48 dbaron: I would prefer to define it more precisely in this spec, even if we don't have definitions for all terms 17:22:06 fantasai: krit's point wrt aligning animations? 17:22:12 dbaron: We don't align animations. 17:22:19 krit: That's the point of Web Animations, to align them. 17:22:21 leaverou_away has joined #css 17:22:24 TabAtkins: Might fix later 17:22:36 dbaron: Don't think it would be acceptable to fix it later, which is why I think we should define it now. 17:22:45 sylvaing: Later on would be enough content that we would be unable to fix it. 17:22:53 ACTION: dbaron propose wording for http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-style/2009Dec/0280.html 17:22:53 Created ACTION-543 - Propose wording for http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-style/2009Dec/0280.html [on David Baron - due 2013-02-27]. 17:22:58 shans_away has joined #css 17:23:00 https://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=21018 17:23:16 sylvaing: Duplicated keyframes 17:23:29 sylvaing: If you have N for 50%, you drop previous ones, at least that's what spec recommends. 17:23:38 sylvaing: dbaron suggested at the time maybe we should cascade them. 17:23:47 sylvaing: Not sure what it means wrt compat, if Gecko does that. 17:23:55 dbaron: Gecko does cascade them. Has not been a compat problem. 17:24:14 dbaron: I suspect that if we tried to change it in the other direction, might be a compat problem. But this one not so much. Or at least, we didn't hit any problems. 17:24:23 arronei has joined #css 17:24:24 dbaron: I really feel that what the spec says is really just very unlike everything CSS does. 17:24:59 dbaron: It's the norm in CSS that if you have one declaration, and you have another that has one property, it just overrides that one property, not throw out entire block. Reasonable expectation of authors. 17:25:27 glazou: The OM for animations only returns one rule for the keyframe, not multiple. 17:25:36 TabAtkins: The OM for keyframes is completely busted. 17:25:52 djackson_ has joined #css 17:26:00 glazou: Whatever we decide on this topic, the OM should reflect that too. 17:26:22 logbot has joined #css 17:26:32 glazou: If we allow multiple keyframes with same key to cascade, then findRuleForKey should become findRulesForKey and return multiple rules. Otherwise won't be editable. 17:26:36 sylvaing, TabAtkins: fair point 17:26:59 sylvaing: I agree with dbaron's point in generall, not very CSS-like to have bunch of selector-like constructs, and last one cancels previous ones instead of having cascade. 17:27:23 glazou: I agree 17:27:53 sylvaing: When you ask for 50% rule, you want all rules that are for 50%, you want in order of course. maybe at some point, maybe not in this level, give me computed/resolved rule for 50%? 17:27:59 glazou: Yes, I agree with that, we need that too. 17:28:20 glazou: You could retrieve that from the current findRule in the OM, and if you have multiple keyframes, we need API for that. 17:28:25 sylvaing: Do we need that for this level? 17:29:07 TabAtkins: If you're looking for the value for width being animated at 50%, and specified in different keyframes, if you can get a list, then it's easy to iterate the list and get that. 17:29:34 glazou: You said OM is busted. OM has to be consistent with the prose. 17:29:44 TabAtkins: We can do a minimum fix, and add to it later. 17:29:55 glazou: Minimum we could do is remove findRule and add findRules. 17:30:20 fantasai: You could maybe define findRule to return the cascaded result 17:30:26 dbaron: No, it needs to return something you can edit. 17:30:39 sylvaing: Still need to figure out OM. Are we resolving on cascading the keyframes? 17:30:45 sylvaing pokes dino 17:31:10 smfr: I think that's fine. Don't think any content has multiple keyframe rules, except by mistake. 17:31:21 sylvaing: OK, so we'll update that. Then have open issue on updating OM to give a list of rules. 17:31:40 sylvaing: and another issue on adding API for combined ruleset 17:31:53 ACTION: glazou send proposal for updated findRules API for animations keyframe rules 17:31:53 Created ACTION-544 - Send proposal for updated findRules API for animations keyframe rules [on Daniel Glazman - due 2013-02-27]. 17:31:57 RESOLVED: keyframe rules cascade 17:32:00 glazou: yes I have 17:32:08 sylvaing: That's it. 17:32:21 dino: Alexis has an issue 17:32:34 darktears: We do have a problem with pseudo-elements ... animations 17:32:48 darktears: Someone asked on mailing list, how do I know when animation finished on a pseudo-element? 17:32:48 s/pseudo-elements/the pseudoElement attribute/ 17:32:53 darktears: You don't know today. 17:32:54 http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-style/2013Feb/0062.html 17:33:08 http://dev.w3.org/csswg/css3-transitions/#transition-events 17:33:15 sylvaing: Same problem for Transitions 17:33:24 darktears: Mozilla people bring issues wrt compatibility 17:33:28 transition and animation events expose the same property 17:33:37 right 17:33:42 TabAtkins: If you just fire plain animation issues with pseudoElements, you might get unexpectedly more animation events. 17:33:45 florian has joined #css 17:33:50 WebKit ships it on Transsitions 17:33:53 dbaron: I think we should try implementing it and see if compatibility problem. 17:33:55 it's implemented 17:34:07 sylvaing: Yeah, there's not a lot of content out there that uses animations on pseudo-elements. If only because it was not interoperable. 17:34:21 sylvaing: Event handler code, wouldn't need to filter for pseudo-elements 17:34:30 +[IPcaller] 17:34:34 TabAtkins: If it didn't work on WebKit, nobody would have written code for it, right. 17:34:45 Zakim, [IPcaller] has me 17:34:45 +florian; got it 17:35:02 sylvaing: pseudoElement property on these events is pretty new, so no real-world content with event-handling code that checks for it. 17:35:13 sylvaing: True that more events fired. Could be some breakage, but hard to image it would be huge. 17:35:32 darktears: Use cases Boris brought on mailing list were rather exotic 17:35:52 darktears: Problems and use-cases he saw on real content, but to be very honest, was very broken code. 17:36:10 darktears: Website would be broken if WebKit shipped unprefixed 17:36:14 sylvaing: ... 17:36:20 sylvaing: Later add animation on ::before 17:36:36 sylvaing: Your animation code is not checking for the pseudoElement on that element. 17:36:45 sylvaing: Do your animation even processing too early, there is a risk of breakage. 17:36:53 sylvaing: Not sure what we can do here. 17:36:59 sylvaing: Strategy of changing event name... 17:37:16 glazou: If we want the opportunity to change, we can consider that real-life use cases are rare enough, still allows us to change. 17:37:19 I mean in WebKIt we do have it implemented to Transitions and will probably ship soon with Chrome. We'll get feedback soon 17:37:24 so far nothing showed up 17:37:25 glazou: Not necessarily true in near future. So it's right time to do this. 17:37:47 glazou: Seems we running in circles. 17:37:57 glazou: Are we proposing to add pseudoElement? Yes/no? 17:38:02 sylvaing: It's already in there 17:38:09 glazou: Do we care to remove it? 17:38:26 TabAtkins: Since objections seem to come from Mozilla, but dbaron's ok with trying it, think we keep it. 17:38:39 dbaron: Will come back with info on this, but takes awhile to ship, so in a few months 17:38:44 ok for me 17:39:05 fantasai: Can mark it at-risk, so won't hold up for CR. 17:39:19 yes 17:39:23 fantasai: Also it's a "let's try and implement it" change, that's what CR is for. 17:39:42 RESOLVED: Keep pseudoElement on animation events. Mark at-risk. Revisit in a few months if it's a web-compat problem. 17:39:53 Topic: Publications 17:39:57 glazou: First one is Paged Media 17:40:18 SimonSapin: Since we requested new WD, some ppl have started reviewing it, so I have some old issues I found that I had lost, and some new issues too 17:40:28 SimonSapin: Some easy to fix, want to fix in next few days. Some I want to defer after new WD. 17:40:41 glazou: Anything really critical that could block WD? 17:40:45 SimonSapin: Don't think so 17:40:57 glazou: What do ppl think of releasing new WD of css3-page? 17:41:11 is always in favor of new drafts 17:41:17 RESOLVED: New WD for CSS3 Paged Media 17:41:43 SimonSapin: We just added new feature, having multiple pseudo-classes in @page selectors. New in draft, but we have two implementations already. 17:41:47 e.g. @page :first:left 17:41:55 glazou: Did you update specificity? 17:41:58 SimonSapin: ... 17:42:08 SimonSapin: still need to do that, filed an issue 17:42:13 RESOLVED: Add pseudo-class combinations for @page selectors 17:42:18 glazou: Next one, Print Profile. 17:42:40 fantasai: Needs to be published with Paged Media. 17:42:50 https://www.w3.org/Style/Group/css-print/ 17:43:02 fantasai: Just switched it to WG Note, and updated references 17:43:25 https://www.w3.org/Style/Group/css-print/#section-syntax 17:43:27 scroll up from CSS Syntax 17:43:47 fantasai: Section on handling image-rendering properties, specifically object-fit / object-position. 17:44:17 https://www.w3.org/Style/Group/css-print/#section-images 17:44:48 fantasai: Previous CSS Print profile included [... fill in later ...] 17:44:56 glazou: Please add Changes from Previous Version section 17:45:00 fantasai: Ok, I can do that. 17:45:05 I think that (1) if we publish the document, it should have an editor listed (fantasai, I think) who is an active member of the working group and (2) it should probably also have a public editor's draft if it's an active document 17:45:15 glazou: Any objection to publishing? 17:45:42 fantasai: I don't think it should be an active document. Think we just publish this update, and then ignore the fact that it exists. 17:46:00 RESOLVED: Publish css-print with fantasai as editor, updated changes section. 17:46:01 http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-archive/2013Feb/0040.html 17:46:15 dbaron: At F2F we had almost all issues resolved, a few left 17:46:28 JohnJansen has joined #CSS 17:46:28 http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-style/2013Feb/0229.html 17:46:30 dbaron: First one was proposal for issue 5, which is behavior of insertRule 17:46:39 dbaron: I looked at what impl do, not quite consistent. 17:46:57 dbaron: Seem we like WebKit behavior best, so suggest we spec that. I've already implemented it in Gecko. 17:47:14 dbaron: Question is basically what happens if you pass insertRule an empty string, or multiple rules, or valid rule with other garbage afterward. 17:47:27 dbaron: Proposal is they all throw SyntaxError exception b/c not a valid single rule. 17:47:36 SimonSapin: Don't we have same on stylesheet object? 17:47:42 dbaron: I would expect same rules to apply there. 17:47:45 dbaron: Spec was equally unclear 17:47:55 -SimonSapin 17:48:02 rhauck has joined #css 17:48:16 ACTION: Glenn to update CSSOM to throw SyntaxError on insertRule with above weirdness as argument 17:48:16 Created ACTION-545 - Update CSSOM to throw SyntaxError on insertRule with above weirdness as argument [on Glenn Adams - due 2013-02-27]. 17:48:40 dbaron: Others, one was unclear if had addressed; had been. 17:48:41 should css3-syntax define what is valid? 17:48:50 +SimonSapin 17:48:55 http://dev.w3.org/csswg/css3-conditional/doc-20121213-LCWD.txt 17:49:02 dbaron: Others were editorial, plus one resolution that was missing edits. 17:49:10 glazou: Colorized DoC? 17:49:33 glazou: Helps for the conf call with staff 17:49:47 glazou: If you don't have time, don't worry, but if do, that will help 17:49:54 glazou: Any objection to move to CR? 17:49:57 Florian: No, let's go! 17:50:02 RESOLVED: css3-conditional to CR 17:50:23 dbaron: Would like to link to test suite at time we publish CR. 17:50:29 dbaron: Have a bunch of tests, but no built test suite 17:50:31 plinss: I'll take care of that. 17:50:43 florian: You're referring to tests contributed by Mozilla and by me? 17:50:53 dbaron: Yes, would prefer something that's more than a query in shepherd to refer to 17:51:31 ACTION: Bert start process for CR for css3-conditional 17:51:31 Created ACTION-546 - Start process for CR for css3-conditional [on Bert Bos - due 2013-02-27]. 17:51:42 glazou: Tab, counter styles? 17:51:55 TabAtkins: Edited all issues based on F2F discussion 17:52:00 http://dev.w3.org/csswg/css-counter-styles/ 17:52:19 TabAkins: Want LC 17:52:41 fantasai, TabAtkins_, missing Changes from Last Version here too 17:52:49 fantasai: we just added the new feature (for 0-filling), I think we should publish a WD today or so 17:52:56 fantasai: and then give people a few weeks to review before LC 17:53:47 glazou: No objection to WD? 17:53:59 fantasai: Tab, please update the changes section, and I'll deal with a quick publication request 17:54:13 RESOLVED: New WD counter-styles, expect LC in 2 weeks or so 17:54:31 SimonSapin: We had proposal on mailing list to add percentages to column-width or column-gap 17:54:38 SimonSapin: Do implementers want to do this? 17:54:41 SimonSapin: Should we do this in CR? 17:55:01 glazou: Have a use case for this. If you try to show an editing grid in bg of document, using background is very useful 17:55:11 glazou: Setting columns to percentages will ensure columns map to the grid. 17:55:31 glazou: If you try Adobe, does this. 17:55:37 fantasai: Why not use column-count? 17:55:43 q+ 17:56:08 glazou: I think it's not enough. 17:56:33 TabAtkins: Seems useful 17:56:51 dbaron: I think it'll confuse people into thinking it's the preferred way to get certain number of columns 17:57:04 dbaron: It's not, because there's gaps, and it's not quite that. 17:57:06 zakim, who is noisy 17:57:06 I don't understand 'who is noisy', jdaggett 17:57:11 dbaron: They will get unexpected results. 17:57:27 SimonSapin: I think request was first for column-gap, then column-width b/c looked easy, but maybe we don't need that. 17:57:57 TabAtkins: Given column-gap: is handled by column-count, ok with me 17:58:06 dbaron: column-gap is fine with me, as long as we clearly say what it's relative to 17:58:08 glazou: Ok with me too, as long as we have percent for column-gap.. 17:58:13 glazou: Any objection to adding that to spec? 17:58:29 Florian: Which level? 17:58:34 fantasai: Have to go back to LC for other edits anyway 17:58:47 RESOLVED: Add percentages to column-gap, not to column-width (use column-count for that, it's better) 17:58:50 help 17:59:07 jdaggett: Think one issue we can resolve quickly, font load events in fonts spec 17:59:16 Topic: Splitting font load events out of fonts spec 17:59:19 jdaggett: font-load events, important issues about ? 17:59:30 jdaggett: People leaving various comments ... 17:59:34 darktears, mute please 17:59:42 jdaggett: Potential for churn on this one portion of the spec, and seems would make sens to push out to separate spec. 17:59:52 jdaggett: If ppl ok with that, will take out of spec, and put together something else 17:59:59 jdaggett: Would like resolution on pushing out font load events. 18:00:04 glazou: I can live with that, no problem 18:00:07 fine with me 18:00:12 TabAtkins: I agree 18:00:13 OK, with removal, would like quick progress on separate document 18:00:15 isherman-book has joined #css 18:00:19 RESOLVED: Push font load events out to separate spec 18:00:21 abucur has joined #css 18:00:30 glazou: One last thing, let's all wave goodbye to Sylvain! 18:00:30 bye sylvaing! 18:00:34 sylvaing: good bye! 18:00:44 bye sylvaing, and thanks 18:00:45 glazou: I hope you'll be around for something else, another WG in consortium... 18:00:45 bye sylvaing! hope to see you soon. 18:00:46 sylvaing: don't go! :) 18:00:52 glazou: If it's the case, see you at TPAC 18:00:52 -antonp 18:00:53 -rhauck 18:01:00 bye sylvaing 18:01:05 -nvdbleek 18:01:07 bye everyone 18:01:11 boo SteveZ 18:01:19 Is it still shipping? 18:01:30 -[Apple] 18:01:38 -smfr 18:01:50 -jdaggett 18:01:50 If Opera stops shipping it .. then it's not "shipping" any more. 18:02:12 [side discussion of using Presto as an implementation] 18:02:13 tantek: old versions already shipped stay shipped 18:02:24 SimonSapin - if they're still downloadable, if not, then no. 18:02:31 dbaron: the question of what the rules allow and what we ought to do are different 18:02:37 E.g. we can't use IE5/Mac as an implementation. 18:02:46 -djackson 18:02:58 tantek, i think if users can't download it it's not shipping. if they stop improving it but you can download it then it still counts though not for much longer since nothing new will happen there 18:03:05 -[Microsoft] 18:03:10 -krit 18:03:12 sylvaing - agreed 18:03:13 -Tantek 18:03:30 The point was that other can replicate tests using the "shipped" implementation. 18:03:37 -darktears 18:03:40 SteveZ - not if it's no longer "shipping" 18:03:43 -glazou 18:03:44 hence my point about IE5/Mac 18:03:44 -SylvaIng 18:03:46 -dbaron 18:03:46 -fantasai 18:03:47 -SimonSapin 18:03:51 s/other/others/ 18:03:53 -??P61 18:03:54 -[IPcaller] 18:03:58 -bradk 18:04:00 RRSAgent: make logs public 18:04:01 so as long as Opera/Presto is downloadable, yes, but once they pull the downloads, no more. 18:04:01 -SteveZ 18:04:03 - +1.832.797.aaff 18:04:03 pprspointer 18:04:06 RRSAgent: pointer 18:04:06 See http://www.w3.org/2013/02/20-css-irc#T18-04-06 18:04:28 tantek, Opera made an announcement but if for instance antennahouse stopped or stalled work on their batch processor, you would not know 18:04:28 -plinss 18:04:29 sylvaing - you'll have to show me how you got that working! 18:04:30 Style_CSS FP()12:00PM has ended 18:04:30 Attendees were glazou, +1.415.832.aaaa, SylvaIng, krit, darktears, +1.610.324.aabb, +97362aacc, djackson, hober, plinss, fantasai, dbaron, +1.415.615.aadd, smfr, SimonSapin, 18:04:30 ... JohnJansen, rhauck, nvdbleek, dino, antonp, +1.650.275.aaee, bradk, SteveZ, jdaggett, Tantek, +1.832.797.aaff, florian 18:04:35 and we could still use it in tests 18:04:40 there should be no difference 18:04:47 implementation is available and testable 18:04:51 yes or no:-) 18:05:29 in other news, I started drafting Paged Media Level 4 18:05:30 And implementation was a serious ship to the public, not just a theoretical branch (so things like performance actually matter, for example) 18:05:47 that's not in our crtiteria 18:06:00 Yes it is, actually. 18:06:05 usually perf comments are made during spec writing time 18:06:06 glazou: anything you want to show yet? 18:06:07 As part of the definition of "shipping" 18:06:12 SimonSapin, no, just started 18:06:30 TabAtkins_, what I am said, if there are perf issues, it's not shipped 18:06:37 s/I am said/I said 18:06:49 Opera 18:06:52 on Prsto 18:07:01 Presto even :-) 18:07:07 glazou: I agree with your characterization. ^_^ 18:07:15 oh ok, I thought it was about some specific feature 18:07:18 oyvind: does it still count as an implementation for advancing specs 18:07:57 ok, guys, time for daddy duty here 18:07:58 bye 18:08:02 as long as it still conforms to the spec, it shows that the spec is implementable, no? 18:08:49 oyvind: but will it still be available/downloadable a few months from now? 18:09:00 tantek, SimonSapin: Given we still have 3.21 downloads available… 18:09:44 gsnedders, do you need to pay for that one? 18:09:48 Ms2ger: Yes. 18:10:02 I don't think it counts, then :) 18:10:12 It does 18:10:13 gsnedders - great, as long as downloads are still available, no problem. 18:10:15 My point was rather the whole archive isn't going to vanish. 18:10:26 Implementations that are sold are still publicly available. 18:10:32 The criteria don't specify "free" :) 18:10:32 http://arc.opera.com/pub/opera/ FWIW 18:10:40 And that's intentional. 18:10:41 Fascinating 18:10:43 fantasai: I think the address it gives to get a code doesn't work :) 18:10:49 (i.e., it's the old old office) 18:11:32 fantasai: Heading to a quick doctor thing, then I'll write up the Changes section. 18:12:14 TabAtkins: Note, We have to get this in by EST 18:12:49 TabAtkins: Send me a text when you finish. Try to get it done by lunch? 18:12:54 s/by/before/ 18:13:20 fantasai: feedback welcome on paged media stuff ;) 18:14:46 TabAtkins - I added h-card and h-entry to counter-styles - hope you don't mind. 18:55:20 saabimeister has joined #css 19:03:38 darktears has joined #css 19:15:09 tantek: I don't understand how h-entry works here. We don't have an element to host the content class. 19:15:30 h-entry doesn't require full content, just as RSS doesn't 19:15:41 But we don't have *any* content. 19:15:42 name, url, summary is sufficient for it to be useful 19:16:01 Hm, kk. I thought the spec for it actually required at least one. 19:16:42 even hAtom only required 0 or more entry-content 19:16:49 and in microformats2 - all properties are optional 19:16:52 by design 19:16:59 and then we just specify processing rules for how to handle that 19:17:11 makes authoring valid microformats much easier 19:17:13 In that case, I'm fine with it. 19:18:17 the use case for such "summary" h-entry markup is all those sites that take a link and provide a summary around it on their own site. E.g. G+, FB, Pinterest, Twitter etc. (who all have *different* proprietary ways of doing it now, but hopefully we can eventually get them to parse for standard h-entry as well) 19:18:45 cool. yeah I've updated the css module template accordingly as well. 19:20:32 oops I forgot to do the hg push and now have to merge 19:20:39 what does this mean? "not updating: crosses branches (merge branches or update --check to force update)" 19:22:07 Did you try hg merge? 19:23:12 this doesn't sound good though: 2 files updated, 0 files merged 19:24:28 I have to recommit? 19:24:31 this is confusing as hell 19:24:53 tantek, hg heads . 19:25:10 so basically, just keep doing hg pull -u, hg commit, hg merge, hg push until it stops giving errors 19:25:14 in some random order 19:26:01 Sounds like you committed before pulling 19:26:16 Anyway, if you're going to troll, figure it out yourself 19:27:09 use a cryptic set of commands that look like english words but don't assume anything from their english meanings, get back a cryptic set of messages (possibly error) also in what appears to be in english but doesn't mean that. assign new translations to all commands and messages. 19:28:00 Sounds like git 19:28:32 Ms2ger - yep, hg and git commands/results are equivalently cryptic to me. 19:34:34 tantek: Humor Ms2ger and paste output ot hg heads 19:34:37 s/ot/to/ 19:35:59 TabAtkins: When you get a chance, point us at your commit script? 19:52:52 fantasai: Added the changes section to the draft. 19:58:00 fantasai, TabAtkins_, btw: [[HTML]] in http://dev.w3.org/csswg/css3-cascade/#preshint is broken 20:14:24 dbaron has joined #css 20:15:52 SimonSapin has joined #css 20:26:11 Ms2ger: I hate our biblio references. :/ 20:26:58 I like Anolis's more ;) 20:31:22 Ms2ger: As my preprocessor expands, I'll have a real crossref system that makes sense. 20:34:01 cross refs that actually link to the particular part of the spec being referenced? 20:34:14 For gods sake, yes. 20:38:51 TabAtkins_: why start from scratch instead of extending anolis or something? 20:39:00 Anolis already has that 20:39:18 A xref system that makes sense? 20:39:20 or maybe just using anolis 20:39:20 I'm not sure. ;P 20:39:22 SimonSapin: Because I already wanted to do somewhat more than Anolis wants (omit paragraphs, strip whitesapce prefixes on
, etc.)
20:39:41  TabAtkins_, hence the "extend" part ;)
20:39:44  Also: reinventing the wheel is fun?
20:40:12  And what do you mean by omitting paragraphs?
20:40:22  Markdown paragraphs.
20:40:24  Tab
20:40:27  Inserting 

s where you've got \n\n? 20:40:36 Tab's pre-pre-pre-processor will add in the normative text 20:40:39 Ms2ger: Basically, yes, thought it's a touch smarter than that. 20:41:19 Sounds a little annoying to implement on top of the python dom, but maybe I should try 20:41:47 Ms2ger: I'm implementing as a source-text hack right now. I haven't yet gotten to anything that I need a DOM for, though I will very soon. 20:42:02 Been there :) 20:42:19 I've got a source text hack here that deals with [[FOO]] 20:42:45 Including a nice special case for [[SHORTNAME]] 20:44:21 TabAtkins_, also, I believe you're inconsistent about including "Jr." in the editor lists 20:45:03 Ms2ger: Correct. 21:02:34 isherman-book has joined #css 21:07:05 TabAtkins_: do we have terms like "outside/inside layout layout mode"? Examples of the former are inline-level, block-level, table cell, flex item; examples of the latter are block container, inline content, multicol, flexbox, … 21:07:32 also "replaced" for inside 21:07:50 the idea being that they’re fairly orthogonal: see inline-block, replaced table cell, etc. 21:10:22 or fantasai? 21:22:15 SimonSapin: I haven't come up with names yet, but the distinction is most of the impetus behind http://dev.w3.org/csswg/css-display-3/ 21:24:25 I’m arguing with Bert again … point being that multicol is only "inside" but used width is determined by "outside" (which can indirectly be based on min-content and max-content which, *them*, depend on "inside".) 21:24:51 Multicol is definitely an "inside" concept, and should have been a display-inside value. In a perfect world... 21:26:10 TabAtkins_: `display-inside: block` is the same as "is a block container", right? 21:26:23 I believe so, yes. 21:27:12 one issue is that multicol applies to block containers … well it applies to things that would otherwise have been block containers. But since they’re multicol they’re not block containers anymore. 21:38:26 tantek has joined #css 21:43:43 TabAtkins_: maybe the word for "inside" stuff is "formatting context"? 21:43:53 block formatting context, flex formatting context, … 21:45:20 TabAtkins_: in today's dose of css3-sizing questions...http://dev.w3.org/csswg/css3-sizing/#replaced-intrinsic points to the auto size calculation http://dev.w3.org/csswg/css3-images/#sizing-terms, which has no mention of auto size calculation 21:45:30 TabAtkins_: does it mean the Default Sizing Algorithm ? 21:45:54 Yes. 21:46:06 SimonSapin: That sounds reasonable. 21:46:07 TabAtkins_: so, do moz/webkit get this case wrong then? 21:46:07 http://plexode.com/eval3/#ht=%3Cstyle%3E%0A.min-width-min-content%20{%0A%20%20%20%20min-width%3A%20-moz-min-content%3B%0A%20%20%20%20min-width%3A%20-ie-min-content%3B%0A%20%20%20%20min-width%3A%20-o-min-content%3B%0A%20%20%20%20min-width%3A%20-webkit-min-content%3B%0A%20%20%20%20min-width%3A%20min-content%3B%0A%20%20%20%20width%3A%2010px%3B%0A%20%20%20%20bor 21:46:07 der%3A%205px%20solid%20salmon%3B%0A}%0A%3C%2Fstyle%3E%0A%0A%3Cimg%20src%3D%22http%3A%2F%2Fgoogle.com%2Fimages%2Flogo.gif%22%20style%3D%22height%3A%20200px%22%3E%0A%3Cimg%20src%3D%22http%3A%2F%2Fgoogle.com%2Fimages%2Flogo.gif%22%20style%3D%22height%3A%20200px%22%20class%3D%22min-width-min-content%22%3E%0A 21:46:11 ack 21:46:17 i'll get a trimmed version of that... 21:46:22 http://plexode.com/u/#AVwidthATe.com2S%3C2R%3E2P%3B2O%22MNI8imJ!LKAM6!!!!ALstylerK4heightG200pxOrJages8logo.gifOrIH%3A88googlTrH6Simg!src4http6G%3A!Q9min-V28%2F26%0AE4%3DOU*-(P)Gr)M9Y(min-content2!%20~http://plexodT/eval3/#ht=SLR6.9-(!%7B)G-moz*-ie*-o*-webkit*(PMVG10pxPMborderG5px!solid!salmonP6%7D6S8LR6NRN!class49-(OR6 21:46:48 Why do you use plexode. :/ 21:46:51 TabAtkins_: should the width of the second image be the same as the first? 21:47:13 TabAtkins_: i like the immediate feedback...makes for much quicker prototyping than jsfiddle 21:47:26 Use Live DOM Viewer instead. Better urls, for one. 21:47:28 jsfiddle soooo slow 21:47:49 hmmm...i could try it 21:47:58 plexode makes executing JS if you need to easy 21:48:15 As does DOM Viewer - just add a