IRC log of css on 2013-02-20

Timestamps are in UTC.

16:25:15 [RRSAgent]
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16:25:15 [RRSAgent]
logging to http://www.w3.org/2013/02/20-css-irc
16:25:20 [glazou]
zakim, this will be Style
16:25:20 [Zakim]
ok, glazou; I see Style_CSS FP()12:00PM scheduled to start in 35 minutes
16:25:25 [glazou]
RRSAgent, make logs public
16:27:20 [lmclister]
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16:41:18 [sylvaing_]
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16:54:47 [glazou]
Zakim, code?
16:54:47 [Zakim]
the conference code is 78953 (tel:+1.617.761.6200 sip:zakim@voip.w3.org), glazou
16:55:17 [Zakim]
Style_CSS FP()12:00PM has now started
16:55:23 [Zakim]
+??P31
16:55:28 [glazou]
Zakim, ??P31 is me
16:55:28 [Zakim]
+glazou; got it
16:55:37 [dbaron]
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16:56:10 [Zakim]
+ +1.415.832.aaaa
16:56:19 [Zakim]
+SylvaIng
16:56:22 [krit]
Zakim, aaaa is me
16:56:22 [Zakim]
+krit; got it
16:56:37 [djackson]
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16:57:15 [tantek]
tantek has joined #css
16:57:24 [Zakim]
+??P42
16:57:25 [oyvind]
oyvind has joined #css
16:57:38 [darktears]
Zakim, ??P42 is me
16:57:38 [Zakim]
+darktears; got it
16:57:40 [Zakim]
+ +1.610.324.aabb
16:58:13 [Zakim]
+ +97362aacc
16:59:13 [glazou]
Zakim, aabb is djackson
16:59:13 [Zakim]
+djackson; got it
16:59:39 [Zakim]
+[Apple]
16:59:50 [hober]
Zakim, Apple has me
16:59:50 [Zakim]
+hober; got it
17:00:11 [hober]
that's not dino
17:00:14 [hober]
dino is on my line
17:00:32 [Zakim]
+??P61
17:00:51 [Zakim]
+plinss
17:01:03 [JohnJansen]
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17:01:08 [Zakim]
+fantasai
17:01:18 [bradk]
bradk has joined #css
17:01:27 [nvdbleek]
zakim, code?
17:01:27 [Zakim]
the conference code is 78953 (tel:+1.617.761.6200 sip:zakim@voip.w3.org), nvdbleek
17:01:31 [Zakim]
+dbaron
17:01:35 [SimonSapin1]
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17:01:57 [smfr]
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17:02:00 [glazou]
sylvaing, how many animation issues to discuss ?
17:02:07 [sylvaing]
I have 5
17:02:09 [glazou]
ok
17:02:14 [glazou]
time allocated ?
17:02:26 [sylvaing]
Let's say 20mn?
17:02:30 [Zakim]
+[Microsoft]
17:02:31 [glazou]
perfect sylvaing
17:02:43 [jdaggett]
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17:02:46 [fantasai]
ScribeNick: fantasai
17:02:46 [Zakim]
+ +1.415.615.aadd
17:02:49 [Zakim]
+smfr
17:02:50 [Zakim]
+SimonSapin
17:02:56 [JohnJansen]
Zakim, Microsoft has JohnJansen
17:02:57 [Zakim]
+JohnJansen; got it
17:03:19 [glazou]
Zakim, aadd is rhauck
17:03:19 [Zakim]
+rhauck; got it
17:03:21 [SimonSapin1]
\o/ Zakim got the right nick for me this time
17:03:28 [glazou]
lucky you...
17:03:49 [Zakim]
+nvdbleek
17:04:12 [dino]
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17:04:21 [hober]
Zakim, Apple has dino
17:04:21 [Zakim]
+dino; got it
17:04:22 [glazou]
Zakim, aacc is antonp
17:04:22 [Zakim]
+antonp; got it
17:04:29 [rhauck]
rhauck has joined #css
17:04:41 [Zakim]
+ +1.650.275.aaee
17:04:59 [bradk]
Zakim, aaee is me
17:05:01 [Zakim]
+bradk; got it
17:05:05 [smfr]
Zakim, who's noisy?
17:05:14 [glazou]
dino, ROFL
17:05:16 [Zakim]
smfr, listening for 10 seconds I heard sound from the following: rhauck (16%), bradk (3%), fantasai (11%)
17:05:27 [bradk]
I don't think the noise was me, but I muted my phone anyway
17:05:34 [Zakim]
+SteveZ
17:05:37 [nvdbleek]
zakim, mute me
17:05:37 [Zakim]
nvdbleek should now be muted
17:05:50 [fantasai]
glazou: Extra items?
17:06:08 [fantasai]
krit: Edited Masking spec, would like to ask for review
17:06:14 [Zakim]
+??P80
17:06:24 [jdaggett]
zakim, ++p80 is me
17:06:24 [Zakim]
sorry, jdaggett, I do not recognize a party named '++p80'
17:06:28 [fantasai]
SimonSapin: Proposal for adding percentages to column-width/column-gap
17:06:29 [krit]
s/ask for review/ask for review by email, is that ok?/
17:06:39 [jdaggett]
zakim, ??p80 is me
17:06:39 [Zakim]
+jdaggett; got it
17:06:39 [fantasai]
glazou: You wondered if doable in CR. Let's discuss that after animations
17:06:40 [Zakim]
+Tantek
17:06:41 [fantasai]
glazou: Anything else?
17:06:47 [tantek]
Zakim, mute Tantek
17:06:47 [Zakim]
Tantek should now be muted
17:06:49 [Zakim]
+ +1.832.797.aaff
17:06:56 [fantasai]
glazou: Start with Animations, b/c sylvain on call for last time
17:06:59 [fantasai]
Topic: Animations
17:07:07 [fantasai]
sylvaing: Any objections to adding Rossen as editor to Animations?
17:07:20 [fantasai]
RESOLVED: Add Rossen as editor to Animations
17:07:36 [glazou]
LOL case sensitivity...
17:07:37 [smfr]
smfr has changed the topic to: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-style/2013Feb/0461.html
17:07:39 [fantasai]
sylvaing: Clarification for me, case-sensitivity of user-defined idents was resolved in Tucson. Is that in CSS3 Values yet?
17:07:57 [fantasai]
TabAtkins: Don't think edit has made it in yet, but will do today.
17:08:01 [fantasai]
sylvaing: Ok, will refer to that.
17:08:05 [sylvaing]
http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-style/2011Sep/0392.html
17:08:41 [fantasai]
sylvaing: Current wording ignores multiple values, multiple keyframes, etc.
17:08:42 [SteveZ]
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17:08:52 [fantasai]
sylvaing: Oyvind proposed some text.
17:09:00 [fantasai]
[see email]
17:09:10 [fantasai]
sylvaing: I think good idea to clarify that.
17:09:24 [dino]
+1 to clarifying that text
17:09:24 [fantasai]
dbaron: There was an interop issue with definition of valid @keyframes rule
17:09:37 [fantasai]
dbaron: Previous decision on that, make sure it's clear too
17:09:55 [fantasai]
RESOLVED: Oyvind's clarification accepted for http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-style/2011Sep/0392.html
17:09:59 [sylvaing]
https://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=14805
17:10:14 [fantasai]
sylvaing: Question from dbaron on using timing functions inside keyframe rules
17:10:26 [fantasai]
sylvaing: Understood that if you have timing function on keyframe rule, .. next one
17:10:34 [fantasai]
sylvaing: What if you're going in a different direction, e.g. reverse / alternate?
17:10:39 [dbaron]
http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-style/2011Mar/0744.html
17:10:51 [fantasai]
sylvaing: When you go from N to N+1, you always use timing function defined in frame N.
17:10:58 [fantasai]
dino: Intended, but not written. Sorry. Yes.
17:11:13 [fantasai]
TabAtkins: Timing function on a keyframe defines that particular gap, regardless which way you're going.
17:11:25 [fantasai]
dino: Maybe add to spec that animation literally runs in reverse
17:11:28 [fantasai]
dbaron: Except it doesn't
17:11:31 [fantasai]
dbaron: I don't think it does.
17:11:34 [fantasai]
dino: ?
17:11:50 [fantasai]
dbaron: Do we reduce the math of the timing function, or ue the appropriate timing function?
17:11:53 [fantasai]
s/ue/use/
17:12:12 [fantasai]
dbaron: e.g. if you have ease-in(), then you ease-in() to that point regardless of direciton.
17:12:20 [fantasai]
glazou: Right, so we are not reversing animation per se
17:12:47 [fantasai]
[...]
17:12:54 [fantasai]
sylvaing: What does Gecko do?
17:12:56 [fantasai]
dbaron: Have to check
17:13:18 [fantasai]
dino: we process value from 0 - 1, [...] so timing function does actually play backwards when you go in a reverse order
17:13:34 [fantasai]
dino: If you're 10% through reverse, we calculate as if 90% of going forwards
17:13:52 [fantasai]
glazou: Ok, let's defer resolution of this issue until dino's email
17:14:04 [fantasai]
sylvaing: Yes, and we should check implementations. I think we do what Gecko does
17:14:06 [dbaron]
you mean, you think IE does the same thing that I *think* Gecko does? :-)
17:14:13 [glazou]
LOL
17:14:14 [fantasai]
sylvaing: But don't think it's a major breaking change if we have to swap it.
17:14:33 [fantasai]
smfr: Think we don't what to change WebKit. And intent is that reverse is a mirror image of the forward animation.
17:14:43 [sylvaing]
https://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=15848
17:14:53 [glazou]
http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-style/2009Dec/0280.html
17:15:03 [fantasai]
sylvaing: Prose in spec about defining start of animation
17:15:15 [fantasai]
sylvaing: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-style/2009Dec/0280.html
17:15:16 [sylvaing]
# The start time of an animation is the latter of two moments: the
17:15:16 [sylvaing]
# time at which the style is resolved that specifies the
17:15:16 [sylvaing]
# animation, or the time the document's load event is fired.
17:15:28 [fantasai]
sylvaing: Hard one to test, and not exactly what browsers do, really
17:15:42 [fantasai]
sylvaing: I'm wondering, what is the point of this statement?
17:15:51 [fantasai]
sylvaing: Or is it really, animation applies when the animation-name property is resolved?
17:16:03 [fantasai]
smfr: in WebKit we did start until document load, but that's no longer true.
17:16:11 [fantasai]
dbaron: Don't think it was true at the time I implemented animations in Gecko
17:16:26 [fantasai]
sylvaing: Also, hard to test. Interesting implementation details, not sure how you'd test across browsers.
17:16:36 [fantasai]
sylvaing: Should really say it applies at the time the animation-name property is resolved.
17:16:43 [fantasai]
sylvaing: Of course, we're getting to, we don't define when things are computed.
17:16:48 [fantasai]
sylvaing: But document load is bogus.
17:17:11 [fantasai]
krit: Does that mean that document is loaded (onload), or all required parts loaded (e.g. all style sheets)
17:17:31 [fantasai]
krit: When you have document load, can you be sure style is resolved for all parts of the document?
17:17:42 [fantasai]
TabAtkins: [...]
17:17:53 [fantasai]
sylvaing: Why does it matter?
17:18:05 [fantasai]
krit: For SVG, when the document is read for complete rendering, that's when animations start.
17:18:16 [fantasai]
smfr: We specced that way for CSS originally, then changed our minds
17:18:23 [fantasai]
krit: Might need to align SVG to this then
17:18:41 [fantasai]
sylvaing: Sadly, don't think we have priority on when things are computed.
17:18:49 [dino]
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17:18:55 [fantasai]
sylvaing: Don't want to leave statement in there that doesn't agree with implementations.
17:19:06 [rhauck1]
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17:19:09 [fantasai]
dbaron: I think we need to fix this to match what everyone is doing, b/c we all agree that this is wrong.
17:19:14 [isherman]
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17:19:32 [fantasai]
sylvaing: Think it goes back to resolution earlier, animation applies when animation-name is computed, and have last valid @keyframe in sorted order. That's it
17:20:06 [fantasai]
krit: Suppose you have huge document, like HTML5 spec, animation on one of first elements that get rendered.
17:20:30 [fantasai]
krit: Do animations wait until whole document is loaded?
17:20:44 [fantasai]
dbaron: we all implemented that they start before the whole document is loaded
17:20:48 [fantasai]
krit: Then how do you align animations?
17:20:49 [liam]
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17:20:58 [fantasai]
sylvaing: When this is resolved is up to UA.
17:21:00 [alexmog_away]
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17:21:09 [fantasai]
sylvaing: Whenever value computation occurs.
17:21:22 [fantasai]
krit: Can we add a sentence that says this might be more precise in the future?
17:21:29 [nvdbleek]
zakim, mute me
17:21:29 [Zakim]
nvdbleek was already muted, nvdbleek
17:21:30 [csswg]
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17:21:48 [fantasai]
dbaron: I would prefer to define it more precisely in this spec, even if we don't have definitions for all terms
17:22:06 [fantasai]
fantasai: krit's point wrt aligning animations?
17:22:12 [fantasai]
dbaron: We don't align animations.
17:22:19 [fantasai]
krit: That's the point of Web Animations, to align them.
17:22:21 [leaverou_away]
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17:22:24 [fantasai]
TabAtkins: Might fix later
17:22:36 [fantasai]
dbaron: Don't think it would be acceptable to fix it later, which is why I think we should define it now.
17:22:45 [fantasai]
sylvaing: Later on would be enough content that we would be unable to fix it.
17:22:53 [fantasai]
ACTION: dbaron propose wording for http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-style/2009Dec/0280.html
17:22:53 [trackbot]
Created ACTION-543 - Propose wording for http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-style/2009Dec/0280.html [on David Baron - due 2013-02-27].
17:22:58 [shans_away]
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17:23:00 [sylvaing]
https://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=21018
17:23:16 [fantasai]
sylvaing: Duplicated keyframes
17:23:29 [fantasai]
sylvaing: If you have N for 50%, you drop previous ones, at least that's what spec recommends.
17:23:38 [fantasai]
sylvaing: dbaron suggested at the time maybe we should cascade them.
17:23:47 [fantasai]
sylvaing: Not sure what it means wrt compat, if Gecko does that.
17:23:55 [fantasai]
dbaron: Gecko does cascade them. Has not been a compat problem.
17:24:14 [fantasai]
dbaron: I suspect that if we tried to change it in the other direction, might be a compat problem. But this one not so much. Or at least, we didn't hit any problems.
17:24:23 [arronei]
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17:24:24 [fantasai]
dbaron: I really feel that what the spec says is really just very unlike everything CSS does.
17:24:59 [fantasai]
dbaron: It's the norm in CSS that if you have one declaration, and you have another that has one property, it just overrides that one property, not throw out entire block. Reasonable expectation of authors.
17:25:27 [fantasai]
glazou: The OM for animations only returns one rule for the keyframe, not multiple.
17:25:36 [fantasai]
TabAtkins: The OM for keyframes is completely busted.
17:25:52 [djackson_]
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17:26:00 [fantasai]
glazou: Whatever we decide on this topic, the OM should reflect that too.
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17:26:32 [fantasai]
glazou: If we allow multiple keyframes with same key to cascade, then findRuleForKey should become findRulesForKey and return multiple rules. Otherwise won't be editable.
17:26:36 [fantasai]
sylvaing, TabAtkins: fair point
17:26:59 [fantasai]
sylvaing: I agree with dbaron's point in generall, not very CSS-like to have bunch of selector-like constructs, and last one cancels previous ones instead of having cascade.
17:27:23 [fantasai]
glazou: I agree
17:27:53 [fantasai]
sylvaing: When you ask for 50% rule, you want all rules that are for 50%, you want in order of course. maybe at some point, maybe not in this level, give me computed/resolved rule for 50%?
17:27:59 [fantasai]
glazou: Yes, I agree with that, we need that too.
17:28:20 [fantasai]
glazou: You could retrieve that from the current findRule in the OM, and if you have multiple keyframes, we need API for that.
17:28:25 [fantasai]
sylvaing: Do we need that for this level?
17:29:07 [fantasai]
TabAtkins: If you're looking for the value for width being animated at 50%, and specified in different keyframes, if you can get a list, then it's easy to iterate the list and get that.
17:29:34 [fantasai]
glazou: You said OM is busted. OM has to be consistent with the prose.
17:29:44 [fantasai]
TabAtkins: We can do a minimum fix, and add to it later.
17:29:55 [fantasai]
glazou: Minimum we could do is remove findRule and add findRules.
17:30:20 [fantasai]
fantasai: You could maybe define findRule to return the cascaded result
17:30:26 [fantasai]
dbaron: No, it needs to return something you can edit.
17:30:39 [fantasai]
sylvaing: Still need to figure out OM. Are we resolving on cascading the keyframes?
17:30:45 [fantasai]
sylvaing pokes dino
17:31:10 [fantasai]
smfr: I think that's fine. Don't think any content has multiple keyframe rules, except by mistake.
17:31:21 [fantasai]
sylvaing: OK, so we'll update that. Then have open issue on updating OM to give a list of rules.
17:31:40 [fantasai]
sylvaing: and another issue on adding API for combined ruleset
17:31:53 [fantasai]
ACTION: glazou send proposal for updated findRules API for animations keyframe rules
17:31:53 [trackbot]
Created ACTION-544 - Send proposal for updated findRules API for animations keyframe rules [on Daniel Glazman - due 2013-02-27].
17:31:57 [fantasai]
RESOLVED: keyframe rules cascade
17:32:00 [darktears]
glazou: yes I have
17:32:08 [fantasai]
sylvaing: That's it.
17:32:21 [fantasai]
dino: Alexis has an issue
17:32:34 [fantasai]
darktears: We do have a problem with pseudo-elements ... animations
17:32:48 [fantasai]
darktears: Someone asked on mailing list, how do I know when animation finished on a pseudo-element?
17:32:48 [dbaron]
s/pseudo-elements/the pseudoElement attribute/
17:32:53 [fantasai]
darktears: You don't know today.
17:32:54 [darktears]
http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-style/2013Feb/0062.html
17:33:08 [darktears]
http://dev.w3.org/csswg/css3-transitions/#transition-events
17:33:15 [fantasai]
sylvaing: Same problem for Transitions
17:33:24 [fantasai]
darktears: Mozilla people bring issues wrt compatibility
17:33:28 [sylvaing]
transition and animation events expose the same property
17:33:37 [darktears]
right
17:33:42 [fantasai]
TabAtkins: If you just fire plain animation issues with pseudoElements, you might get unexpectedly more animation events.
17:33:45 [florian]
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17:33:50 [darktears]
WebKit ships it on Transsitions
17:33:53 [fantasai]
dbaron: I think we should try implementing it and see if compatibility problem.
17:33:55 [darktears]
it's implemented
17:34:07 [fantasai]
sylvaing: Yeah, there's not a lot of content out there that uses animations on pseudo-elements. If only because it was not interoperable.
17:34:21 [fantasai]
sylvaing: Event handler code, wouldn't need to filter for pseudo-elements
17:34:30 [Zakim]
+[IPcaller]
17:34:34 [fantasai]
TabAtkins: If it didn't work on WebKit, nobody would have written code for it, right.
17:34:45 [florian]
Zakim, [IPcaller] has me
17:34:45 [Zakim]
+florian; got it
17:35:02 [fantasai]
sylvaing: pseudoElement property on these events is pretty new, so no real-world content with event-handling code that checks for it.
17:35:13 [fantasai]
sylvaing: True that more events fired. Could be some breakage, but hard to image it would be huge.
17:35:32 [fantasai]
darktears: Use cases Boris brought on mailing list were rather exotic
17:35:52 [fantasai]
darktears: Problems and use-cases he saw on real content, but to be very honest, was very broken code.
17:36:10 [fantasai]
darktears: Website would be broken if WebKit shipped unprefixed
17:36:14 [fantasai]
sylvaing: ...
17:36:20 [fantasai]
sylvaing: Later add animation on ::before
17:36:36 [fantasai]
sylvaing: Your animation code is not checking for the pseudoElement on that element.
17:36:45 [fantasai]
sylvaing: Do your animation even processing too early, there is a risk of breakage.
17:36:53 [fantasai]
sylvaing: Not sure what we can do here.
17:36:59 [fantasai]
sylvaing: Strategy of changing event name...
17:37:16 [fantasai]
glazou: If we want the opportunity to change, we can consider that real-life use cases are rare enough, still allows us to change.
17:37:19 [darktears]
I mean in WebKIt we do have it implemented to Transitions and will probably ship soon with Chrome. We'll get feedback soon
17:37:24 [darktears]
so far nothing showed up
17:37:25 [fantasai]
glazou: Not necessarily true in near future. So it's right time to do this.
17:37:47 [fantasai]
glazou: Seems we running in circles.
17:37:57 [fantasai]
glazou: Are we proposing to add pseudoElement? Yes/no?
17:38:02 [fantasai]
sylvaing: It's already in there
17:38:09 [fantasai]
glazou: Do we care to remove it?
17:38:26 [fantasai]
TabAtkins: Since objections seem to come from Mozilla, but dbaron's ok with trying it, think we keep it.
17:38:39 [fantasai]
dbaron: Will come back with info on this, but takes awhile to ship, so in a few months
17:38:44 [darktears]
ok for me
17:39:05 [fantasai]
fantasai: Can mark it at-risk, so won't hold up for CR.
17:39:19 [darktears]
yes
17:39:23 [fantasai]
fantasai: Also it's a "let's try and implement it" change, that's what CR is for.
17:39:42 [fantasai]
RESOLVED: Keep pseudoElement on animation events. Mark at-risk. Revisit in a few months if it's a web-compat problem.
17:39:53 [fantasai]
Topic: Publications
17:39:57 [fantasai]
glazou: First one is Paged Media
17:40:18 [fantasai]
SimonSapin: Since we requested new WD, some ppl have started reviewing it, so I have some old issues I found that I had lost, and some new issues too
17:40:28 [fantasai]
SimonSapin: Some easy to fix, want to fix in next few days. Some I want to defer after new WD.
17:40:41 [fantasai]
glazou: Anything really critical that could block WD?
17:40:45 [fantasai]
SimonSapin: Don't think so
17:40:57 [fantasai]
glazou: What do ppl think of releasing new WD of css3-page?
17:41:11 [sylvaing]
is always in favor of new drafts
17:41:17 [fantasai]
RESOLVED: New WD for CSS3 Paged Media
17:41:43 [fantasai]
SimonSapin: We just added new feature, having multiple pseudo-classes in @page selectors. New in draft, but we have two implementations already.
17:41:47 [fantasai]
e.g. @page :first:left
17:41:55 [fantasai]
glazou: Did you update specificity?
17:41:58 [fantasai]
SimonSapin: ...
17:42:08 [SimonSapin]
SimonSapin: still need to do that, filed an issue
17:42:13 [fantasai]
RESOLVED: Add pseudo-class combinations for @page selectors
17:42:18 [fantasai]
glazou: Next one, Print Profile.
17:42:40 [fantasai]
fantasai: Needs to be published with Paged Media.
17:42:50 [fantasai]
https://www.w3.org/Style/Group/css-print/
17:43:02 [fantasai]
fantasai: Just switched it to WG Note, and updated references
17:43:25 [fantasai]
https://www.w3.org/Style/Group/css-print/#section-syntax
17:43:27 [fantasai]
scroll up from CSS Syntax
17:43:47 [fantasai]
fantasai: Section on handling image-rendering properties, specifically object-fit / object-position.
17:44:17 [dbaron]
https://www.w3.org/Style/Group/css-print/#section-images
17:44:48 [fantasai]
fantasai: Previous CSS Print profile included [... fill in later ...]
17:44:56 [fantasai]
glazou: Please add Changes from Previous Version section
17:45:00 [fantasai]
fantasai: Ok, I can do that.
17:45:05 [dbaron]
I think that (1) if we publish the document, it should have an editor listed (fantasai, I think) who is an active member of the working group and (2) it should probably also have a public editor's draft if it's an active document
17:45:15 [fantasai]
glazou: Any objection to publishing?
17:45:42 [fantasai]
fantasai: I don't think it should be an active document. Think we just publish this update, and then ignore the fact that it exists.
17:46:00 [fantasai]
RESOLVED: Publish css-print with fantasai as editor, updated changes section.
17:46:01 [dbaron]
http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-archive/2013Feb/0040.html
17:46:15 [fantasai]
dbaron: At F2F we had almost all issues resolved, a few left
17:46:28 [JohnJansen]
JohnJansen has joined #CSS
17:46:28 [dbaron]
http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-style/2013Feb/0229.html
17:46:30 [fantasai]
dbaron: First one was proposal for issue 5, which is behavior of insertRule
17:46:39 [fantasai]
dbaron: I looked at what impl do, not quite consistent.
17:46:57 [fantasai]
dbaron: Seem we like WebKit behavior best, so suggest we spec that. I've already implemented it in Gecko.
17:47:14 [fantasai]
dbaron: Question is basically what happens if you pass insertRule an empty string, or multiple rules, or valid rule with other garbage afterward.
17:47:27 [fantasai]
dbaron: Proposal is they all throw SyntaxError exception b/c not a valid single rule.
17:47:36 [fantasai]
SimonSapin: Don't we have same on stylesheet object?
17:47:42 [fantasai]
dbaron: I would expect same rules to apply there.
17:47:45 [fantasai]
dbaron: Spec was equally unclear
17:47:55 [Zakim]
-SimonSapin
17:48:02 [rhauck]
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17:48:16 [fantasai]
ACTION: Glenn to update CSSOM to throw SyntaxError on insertRule with above weirdness as argument
17:48:16 [trackbot]
Created ACTION-545 - Update CSSOM to throw SyntaxError on insertRule with above weirdness as argument [on Glenn Adams - due 2013-02-27].
17:48:40 [fantasai]
dbaron: Others, one was unclear if had addressed; had been.
17:48:41 [SimonSapin]
should css3-syntax define what is valid?
17:48:50 [Zakim]
+SimonSapin
17:48:55 [dbaron]
http://dev.w3.org/csswg/css3-conditional/doc-20121213-LCWD.txt
17:49:02 [fantasai]
dbaron: Others were editorial, plus one resolution that was missing edits.
17:49:10 [fantasai]
glazou: Colorized DoC?
17:49:33 [fantasai]
glazou: Helps for the conf call with staff
17:49:47 [fantasai]
glazou: If you don't have time, don't worry, but if do, that will help
17:49:54 [fantasai]
glazou: Any objection to move to CR?
17:49:57 [fantasai]
Florian: No, let's go!
17:50:02 [fantasai]
RESOLVED: css3-conditional to CR
17:50:23 [fantasai]
dbaron: Would like to link to test suite at time we publish CR.
17:50:29 [fantasai]
dbaron: Have a bunch of tests, but no built test suite
17:50:31 [fantasai]
plinss: I'll take care of that.
17:50:43 [fantasai]
florian: You're referring to tests contributed by Mozilla and by me?
17:50:53 [fantasai]
dbaron: Yes, would prefer something that's more than a query in shepherd to refer to
17:51:31 [fantasai]
ACTION: Bert start process for CR for css3-conditional
17:51:31 [trackbot]
Created ACTION-546 - Start process for CR for css3-conditional [on Bert Bos - due 2013-02-27].
17:51:42 [fantasai]
glazou: Tab, counter styles?
17:51:55 [fantasai]
TabAtkins: Edited all issues based on F2F discussion
17:52:00 [fantasai]
http://dev.w3.org/csswg/css-counter-styles/
17:52:19 [fantasai]
TabAkins: Want LC
17:52:41 [glazou]
fantasai, TabAtkins_, missing Changes from Last Version here too
17:52:49 [dbaron]
fantasai: we just added the new feature (for 0-filling), I think we should publish a WD today or so
17:52:56 [dbaron]
fantasai: and then give people a few weeks to review before LC
17:53:47 [fantasai]
glazou: No objection to WD?
17:53:59 [dbaron]
fantasai: Tab, please update the changes section, and I'll deal with a quick publication request
17:54:13 [fantasai]
RESOLVED: New WD counter-styles, expect LC in 2 weeks or so
17:54:31 [fantasai]
SimonSapin: We had proposal on mailing list to add percentages to column-width or column-gap
17:54:38 [fantasai]
SimonSapin: Do implementers want to do this?
17:54:41 [fantasai]
SimonSapin: Should we do this in CR?
17:55:01 [fantasai]
glazou: Have a use case for this. If you try to show an editing grid in bg of document, using background is very useful
17:55:11 [fantasai]
glazou: Setting columns to percentages will ensure columns map to the grid.
17:55:31 [fantasai]
glazou: If you try Adobe, does this.
17:55:37 [fantasai]
fantasai: Why not use column-count?
17:55:43 [dbaron]
q+
17:56:08 [fantasai]
glazou: I think it's not enough.
17:56:33 [fantasai]
TabAtkins: Seems useful
17:56:51 [fantasai]
dbaron: I think it'll confuse people into thinking it's the preferred way to get certain number of columns
17:57:04 [fantasai]
dbaron: It's not, because there's gaps, and it's not quite that.
17:57:06 [jdaggett]
zakim, who is noisy
17:57:06 [Zakim]
I don't understand 'who is noisy', jdaggett
17:57:11 [fantasai]
dbaron: They will get unexpected results.
17:57:27 [fantasai]
SimonSapin: I think request was first for column-gap, then column-width b/c looked easy, but maybe we don't need that.
17:57:57 [fantasai]
TabAtkins: Given column-gap: <percent> is handled by column-count, ok with me
17:58:06 [dbaron]
dbaron: column-gap is fine with me, as long as we clearly say what it's relative to
17:58:08 [fantasai]
glazou: Ok with me too, as long as we have percent for column-gap..
17:58:13 [fantasai]
glazou: Any objection to adding that to spec?
17:58:29 [fantasai]
Florian: Which level?
17:58:34 [fantasai]
fantasai: Have to go back to LC for other edits anyway
17:58:47 [fantasai]
RESOLVED: Add percentages to column-gap, not to column-width (use column-count for that, it's better)
17:58:50 [jdaggett]
help
17:59:07 [fantasai]
jdaggett: Think one issue we can resolve quickly, font load events in fonts spec
17:59:16 [dbaron]
Topic: Splitting font load events out of fonts spec
17:59:19 [fantasai]
jdaggett: font-load events, important issues about ?
17:59:30 [fantasai]
jdaggett: People leaving various comments ...
17:59:34 [glazou]
darktears, mute please
17:59:42 [fantasai]
jdaggett: Potential for churn on this one portion of the spec, and seems would make sens to push out to separate spec.
17:59:52 [fantasai]
jdaggett: If ppl ok with that, will take out of spec, and put together something else
17:59:59 [fantasai]
jdaggett: Would like resolution on pushing out font load events.
18:00:04 [fantasai]
glazou: I can live with that, no problem
18:00:07 [dbaron]
fine with me
18:00:12 [fantasai]
TabAtkins: I agree
18:00:13 [SteveZ]
OK, with removal, would like quick progress on separate document
18:00:15 [isherman-book]
isherman-book has joined #css
18:00:19 [fantasai]
RESOLVED: Push font load events out to separate spec
18:00:21 [abucur]
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18:00:30 [fantasai]
glazou: One last thing, let's all wave goodbye to Sylvain!
18:00:30 [smfr]
bye sylvaing!
18:00:34 [darktears]
sylvaing: good bye!
18:00:44 [dbaron]
bye sylvaing, and thanks
18:00:45 [fantasai]
glazou: I hope you'll be around for something else, another WG in consortium...
18:00:45 [tantek]
bye sylvaing! hope to see you soon.
18:00:46 [hober]
sylvaing: don't go! :)
18:00:52 [fantasai]
glazou: If it's the case, see you at TPAC
18:00:52 [Zakim]
-antonp
18:00:53 [Zakim]
-rhauck
18:01:00 [bradk]
bye sylvaing
18:01:05 [Zakim]
-nvdbleek
18:01:07 [sylvaing]
bye everyone
18:01:11 [JohnJansen]
boo SteveZ
18:01:19 [tantek]
Is it still shipping?
18:01:30 [Zakim]
-[Apple]
18:01:38 [Zakim]
-smfr
18:01:50 [Zakim]
-jdaggett
18:01:50 [tantek]
If Opera stops shipping it .. then it's not "shipping" any more.
18:02:12 [fantasai]
[side discussion of using Presto as an implementation]
18:02:13 [SimonSapin]
tantek: old versions already shipped stay shipped
18:02:24 [tantek]
SimonSapin - if they're still downloadable, if not, then no.
18:02:31 [dbaron]
dbaron: the question of what the rules allow and what we ought to do are different
18:02:37 [tantek]
E.g. we can't use IE5/Mac as an implementation.
18:02:46 [Zakim]
-djackson
18:02:58 [sylvaing]
tantek, i think if users can't download it it's not shipping. if they stop improving it but you can download it then it still counts though not for much longer since nothing new will happen there
18:03:05 [Zakim]
-[Microsoft]
18:03:10 [Zakim]
-krit
18:03:12 [tantek]
sylvaing - agreed
18:03:13 [Zakim]
-Tantek
18:03:30 [SteveZ]
The point was that other can replicate tests using the "shipped" implementation.
18:03:37 [Zakim]
-darktears
18:03:40 [tantek]
SteveZ - not if it's no longer "shipping"
18:03:43 [Zakim]
-glazou
18:03:44 [tantek]
hence my point about IE5/Mac
18:03:44 [Zakim]
-SylvaIng
18:03:46 [Zakim]
-dbaron
18:03:46 [Zakim]
-fantasai
18:03:47 [Zakim]
-SimonSapin
18:03:51 [SteveZ]
s/other/others/
18:03:53 [Zakim]
-??P61
18:03:54 [Zakim]
-[IPcaller]
18:03:58 [Zakim]
-bradk
18:04:00 [fantasai]
RRSAgent: make logs public
18:04:01 [tantek]
so as long as Opera/Presto is downloadable, yes, but once they pull the downloads, no more.
18:04:01 [Zakim]
-SteveZ
18:04:03 [Zakim]
- +1.832.797.aaff
18:04:03 [fantasai]
pprspointer
18:04:06 [fantasai]
RRSAgent: pointer
18:04:06 [RRSAgent]
See http://www.w3.org/2013/02/20-css-irc#T18-04-06
18:04:28 [glazou]
tantek, Opera made an announcement but if for instance antennahouse stopped or stalled work on their batch processor, you would not know
18:04:28 [Zakim]
-plinss
18:04:29 [tantek]
sylvaing - you'll have to show me how you got that working!
18:04:30 [Zakim]
Style_CSS FP()12:00PM has ended
18:04:30 [Zakim]
Attendees were glazou, +1.415.832.aaaa, SylvaIng, krit, darktears, +1.610.324.aabb, +97362aacc, djackson, hober, plinss, fantasai, dbaron, +1.415.615.aadd, smfr, SimonSapin,
18:04:30 [Zakim]
... JohnJansen, rhauck, nvdbleek, dino, antonp, +1.650.275.aaee, bradk, SteveZ, jdaggett, Tantek, +1.832.797.aaff, florian
18:04:35 [glazou]
and we could still use it in tests
18:04:40 [glazou]
there should be no difference
18:04:47 [glazou]
implementation is available and testable
18:04:51 [glazou]
yes or no:-)
18:05:29 [glazou]
in other news, I started drafting Paged Media Level 4
18:05:30 [TabAtkins_]
And implementation was a serious ship to the public, not just a theoretical branch (so things like performance actually matter, for example)
18:05:47 [glazou]
that's not in our crtiteria
18:06:00 [TabAtkins_]
Yes it is, actually.
18:06:05 [glazou]
usually perf comments are made during spec writing time
18:06:06 [SimonSapin]
glazou: anything you want to show yet?
18:06:07 [TabAtkins_]
As part of the definition of "shipping"
18:06:12 [glazou]
SimonSapin, no, just started
18:06:30 [glazou]
TabAtkins_, what I am said, if there are perf issues, it's not shipped
18:06:37 [glazou]
s/I am said/I said
18:06:49 [glazou]
Opera
18:06:52 [glazou]
on Prsto
18:07:01 [glazou]
Presto even :-)
18:07:07 [TabAtkins_]
glazou: I agree with your characterization. ^_^
18:07:15 [oyvind]
oh ok, I thought it was about some specific feature
18:07:18 [SimonSapin]
oyvind: does it still count as an implementation for advancing specs
18:07:57 [glazou]
ok, guys, time for daddy duty here
18:07:58 [glazou]
bye
18:08:02 [oyvind]
as long as it still conforms to the spec, it shows that the spec is implementable, no?
18:08:49 [SimonSapin]
oyvind: but will it still be available/downloadable a few months from now?
18:09:00 [gsnedders]
tantek, SimonSapin: Given we still have 3.21 downloads available…
18:09:44 [Ms2ger]
gsnedders, do you need to pay for that one?
18:09:48 [gsnedders]
Ms2ger: Yes.
18:10:02 [Ms2ger]
I don't think it counts, then :)
18:10:12 [fantasai]
It does
18:10:13 [tantek]
gsnedders - great, as long as downloads are still available, no problem.
18:10:15 [gsnedders]
My point was rather the whole archive isn't going to vanish.
18:10:26 [fantasai]
Implementations that are sold are still publicly available.
18:10:32 [fantasai]
The criteria don't specify "free" :)
18:10:32 [gsnedders]
http://arc.opera.com/pub/opera/ FWIW
18:10:40 [fantasai]
And that's intentional.
18:10:41 [Ms2ger]
Fascinating
18:10:43 [gsnedders]
fantasai: I think the address it gives to get a code doesn't work :)
18:10:49 [gsnedders]
(i.e., it's the old old office)
18:11:32 [TabAtkins_]
fantasai: Heading to a quick doctor thing, then I'll write up the Changes section.
18:12:14 [fantasai]
TabAtkins: Note, We have to get this in by EST
18:12:49 [fantasai]
TabAtkins: Send me a text when you finish. Try to get it done by lunch?
18:12:54 [fantasai]
s/by/before/
18:13:20 [SimonSapin]
fantasai: feedback welcome on paged media stuff ;)
18:14:46 [tantek]
TabAtkins - I added h-card and h-entry to counter-styles - hope you don't mind.
18:55:20 [saabimeister]
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19:03:38 [darktears]
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19:15:09 [TabAtkins_]
tantek: I don't understand how h-entry works here. We don't have an element to host the content class.
19:15:30 [tantek]
h-entry doesn't require full content, just as RSS doesn't
19:15:41 [TabAtkins_]
But we don't have *any* content.
19:15:42 [tantek]
name, url, summary is sufficient for it to be useful
19:16:01 [TabAtkins_]
Hm, kk. I thought the spec for it actually required at least one.
19:16:42 [tantek]
even hAtom only required 0 or more entry-content
19:16:49 [tantek]
and in microformats2 - all properties are optional
19:16:52 [tantek]
by design
19:16:59 [tantek]
and then we just specify processing rules for how to handle that
19:17:11 [tantek]
makes authoring valid microformats much easier
19:17:13 [TabAtkins_]
In that case, I'm fine with it.
19:18:17 [tantek]
the use case for such "summary" h-entry markup is all those sites that take a link and provide a summary around it on their own site. E.g. G+, FB, Pinterest, Twitter etc. (who all have *different* proprietary ways of doing it now, but hopefully we can eventually get them to parse for standard h-entry as well)
19:18:45 [tantek]
cool. yeah I've updated the css module template accordingly as well.
19:20:32 [tantek]
oops I forgot to do the hg push and now have to merge
19:20:39 [tantek]
what does this mean? "not updating: crosses branches (merge branches or update --check to force update)"
19:22:07 [fantasai]
Did you try hg merge?
19:23:12 [tantek]
this doesn't sound good though: 2 files updated, 0 files merged
19:24:28 [tantek]
I have to recommit?
19:24:31 [tantek]
this is confusing as hell
19:24:53 [Ms2ger]
tantek, hg heads .
19:25:10 [tantek]
so basically, just keep doing hg pull -u, hg commit, hg merge, hg push until it stops giving errors
19:25:14 [tantek]
in some random order
19:26:01 [Ms2ger]
Sounds like you committed before pulling
19:26:16 [Ms2ger]
Anyway, if you're going to troll, figure it out yourself
19:27:09 [tantek]
use a cryptic set of commands that look like english words but don't assume anything from their english meanings, get back a cryptic set of messages (possibly error) also in what appears to be in english but doesn't mean that. assign new translations to all commands and messages.
19:28:00 [Ms2ger]
Sounds like git
19:28:32 [tantek]
Ms2ger - yep, hg and git commands/results are equivalently cryptic to me.
19:34:34 [fantasai]
tantek: Humor Ms2ger and paste output ot hg heads
19:34:37 [fantasai]
s/ot/to/
19:35:59 [fantasai]
TabAtkins: When you get a chance, point us at your commit script?
19:52:52 [TabAtkins_]
fantasai: Added the changes section to the draft.
19:58:00 [Ms2ger]
fantasai, TabAtkins_, btw: [[HTML]] in http://dev.w3.org/csswg/css3-cascade/#preshint is broken
20:14:24 [dbaron]
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20:15:52 [SimonSapin]
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20:26:11 [TabAtkins_]
Ms2ger: I hate our biblio references. :/
20:26:58 [Ms2ger]
I like Anolis's more ;)
20:31:22 [TabAtkins_]
Ms2ger: As my preprocessor expands, I'll have a real crossref system that makes sense.
20:34:01 [stearns]
cross refs that actually link to the particular part of the spec being referenced?
20:34:14 [TabAtkins_]
For gods sake, yes.
20:38:51 [SimonSapin]
TabAtkins_: why start from scratch instead of extending anolis or something?
20:39:00 [Ms2ger]
Anolis already has that
20:39:18 [gsnedders]
A xref system that makes sense?
20:39:20 [SimonSapin]
or maybe just using anolis
20:39:20 [gsnedders]
I'm not sure. ;P
20:39:22 [TabAtkins_]
SimonSapin: Because I already wanted to do somewhat more than Anolis wants (omit paragraphs, strip whitesapce prefixes on <pre>, etc.)
20:39:41 [Ms2ger]
TabAtkins_, hence the "extend" part ;)
20:39:44 [TabAtkins_]
Also: reinventing the wheel is fun?
20:40:12 [Ms2ger]
And what do you mean by omitting paragraphs?
20:40:22 [TabAtkins_]
Markdown paragraphs.
20:40:24 [stearns]
Tab
20:40:27 [Ms2ger]
Inserting <p>s where you've got \n\n?
20:40:36 [stearns]
Tab's pre-pre-pre-processor will add in the normative text
20:40:39 [TabAtkins_]
Ms2ger: Basically, yes, thought it's a touch smarter than that.
20:41:19 [Ms2ger]
Sounds a little annoying to implement on top of the python dom, but maybe I should try
20:41:47 [TabAtkins_]
Ms2ger: I'm implementing as a source-text hack right now. I haven't yet gotten to anything that I need a DOM for, though I will very soon.
20:42:02 [Ms2ger]
Been there :)
20:42:19 [Ms2ger]
I've got a source text hack here that deals with [[FOO]]
20:42:45 [Ms2ger]
Including a nice special case for [[SHORTNAME]]
20:44:21 [Ms2ger]
TabAtkins_, also, I believe you're inconsistent about including "Jr." in the editor lists
20:45:03 [TabAtkins_]
Ms2ger: Correct.
21:02:34 [isherman-book]
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21:07:05 [SimonSapin]
TabAtkins_: do we have terms like "outside/inside layout layout mode"? Examples of the former are inline-level, block-level, table cell, flex item; examples of the latter are block container, inline content, multicol, flexbox, …
21:07:32 [SimonSapin]
also "replaced" for inside
21:07:50 [SimonSapin]
the idea being that they’re fairly orthogonal: see inline-block, replaced table cell, etc.
21:10:22 [SimonSapin]
or fantasai?
21:22:15 [TabAtkins_]
SimonSapin: I haven't come up with names yet, but the distinction is most of the impetus behind http://dev.w3.org/csswg/css-display-3/
21:24:25 [SimonSapin]
I’m arguing with Bert again … point being that multicol is only "inside" but used width is determined by "outside" (which can indirectly be based on min-content and max-content which, *them*, depend on "inside".)
21:24:51 [TabAtkins_]
Multicol is definitely an "inside" concept, and should have been a display-inside value. In a perfect world...
21:26:10 [SimonSapin]
TabAtkins_: `display-inside: block` is the same as "is a block container", right?
21:26:23 [TabAtkins_]
I believe so, yes.
21:27:12 [SimonSapin]
one issue is that multicol applies to block containers … well it applies to things that would otherwise have been block containers. But since they’re multicol they’re not block containers anymore.
21:38:26 [tantek]
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21:43:43 [SimonSapin]
TabAtkins_: maybe the word for "inside" stuff is "formatting context"?
21:43:53 [SimonSapin]
block formatting context, flex formatting context, …
21:45:20 [ojan]
TabAtkins_: in today's dose of css3-sizing questions...http://dev.w3.org/csswg/css3-sizing/#replaced-intrinsic points to the auto size calculation http://dev.w3.org/csswg/css3-images/#sizing-terms, which has no mention of auto size calculation
21:45:30 [ojan]
TabAtkins_: does it mean the Default Sizing Algorithm ?
21:45:54 [TabAtkins_]
Yes.
21:46:06 [TabAtkins_]
SimonSapin: That sounds reasonable.
21:46:07 [ojan]
TabAtkins_: so, do moz/webkit get this case wrong then?
21:46:07 [ojan]
http://plexode.com/eval3/#ht=%3Cstyle%3E%0A.min-width-min-content%20{%0A%20%20%20%20min-width%3A%20-moz-min-content%3B%0A%20%20%20%20min-width%3A%20-ie-min-content%3B%0A%20%20%20%20min-width%3A%20-o-min-content%3B%0A%20%20%20%20min-width%3A%20-webkit-min-content%3B%0A%20%20%20%20min-width%3A%20min-content%3B%0A%20%20%20%20width%3A%2010px%3B%0A%20%20%20%20bor
21:46:07 [ojan]
der%3A%205px%20solid%20salmon%3B%0A}%0A%3C%2Fstyle%3E%0A%0A%3Cimg%20src%3D%22http%3A%2F%2Fgoogle.com%2Fimages%2Flogo.gif%22%20style%3D%22height%3A%20200px%22%3E%0A%3Cimg%20src%3D%22http%3A%2F%2Fgoogle.com%2Fimages%2Flogo.gif%22%20style%3D%22height%3A%20200px%22%20class%3D%22min-width-min-content%22%3E%0A
21:46:11 [ojan]
ack
21:46:17 [ojan]
i'll get a trimmed version of that...
21:46:22 [ojan]
http://plexode.com/u/#AVwidthATe.com2S%3C2R%3E2P%3B2O%22MNI8imJ!LKAM6!!!!ALstylerK4heightG200pxOrJages8logo.gifOrIH%3A88googlTrH6Simg!src4http6G%3A!Q9min-V28%2F26%0AE4%3DOU*-(P)Gr)M9Y(min-content2!%20~http://plexodT/eval3/#ht=SLR6.9-(!%7B)G-moz*-ie*-o*-webkit*(PMVG10pxPMborderG5px!solid!salmonP6%7D6S8LR6NRN!class49-(OR6
21:46:48 [TabAtkins_]
Why do you use plexode. :/
21:46:51 [ojan]
TabAtkins_: should the width of the second image be the same as the first?
21:47:13 [ojan]
TabAtkins_: i like the immediate feedback...makes for much quicker prototyping than jsfiddle
21:47:26 [TabAtkins_]
Use Live DOM Viewer instead. Better urls, for one.
21:47:28 [ojan]
jsfiddle soooo slow
21:47:49 [ojan]
hmmm...i could try it
21:47:58 [ojan]
plexode makes executing JS if you need to easy
21:48:15 [TabAtkins_]
As does DOM Viewer - just add a <script> element. ^_^
21:48:42 [ojan]
anyways...
21:48:48 [TabAtkins_]
I'm looking...
21:50:26 [TabAtkins_]
Ugh, we wrote this bit terribly.
21:50:58 [ojan]
yes
21:51:02 [ojan]
i agree :)
21:52:31 [TabAtkins_]
I think the intention is that you invoke the algorithm without any specified sizes.
21:52:40 [TabAtkins_]
At least, that matches both our and FF's behavior.
21:52:46 [TabAtkins_]
So it's what we should do.
21:53:59 [ojan]
so, the third bullet in the default sizing algorithm?
21:54:26 [TabAtkins_]
Yes.
21:54:37 [TabAtkins_]
Let me rewrite that real quick.
21:54:38 [ojan]
ok...that's super easy to implement at least :)
21:58:44 [ojan]
TabAtkins_: while i'm nagging you about this spec...contain-floats being a width value is super weird
21:58:59 [TabAtkins_]
ojan: Really? I think it's a good place for it.
21:59:03 [ojan]
seems like it should just be a completely separate css property
21:59:18 [ojan]
what if you want the min-width to be 200px and you want the thing to contain floats?
21:59:26 [TabAtkins_]
Look closer at the grammar.
21:59:30 [TabAtkins_]
Note the ||
22:00:33 [ojan]
is this in the same doc? I don't see it
22:01:31 [TabAtkins_]
Oh wait, we messed that one up.
22:01:42 [TabAtkins_]
Darn, it was supposed to be a flag in addition to the length.
22:01:44 [TabAtkins_]
Dammit.
22:02:16 [SimonSapin]
I like dabblet
22:02:44 [TabAtkins_]
dabblet's pretty nice, but I've avoided it for a while since hardware accelerated pages sometimes screw up on Linux Chrome.
22:02:48 [TabAtkins_]
But it's been months.
22:03:12 [glenn]
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22:04:27 [TabAtkins_]
ojan: Fixed Sizing.
22:05:04 [ojan]
TabAtkins_: sgtm
22:05:08 [SimonSapin]
TabAtkins_: you mean Chrome screws up on such pages? :p
22:06:27 [TabAtkins_]
SimonSapin: Yes, it did!
22:12:49 [fantasai]
TabAtkins: fails validation :/
22:13:59 [fantasai]
TabAtkins, tantek: Please make sure your spec validates before you ask for publication
22:14:33 [tantek]
URL?
22:16:42 [fantasai]
tantek: sorry, it's Tab's fault
22:18:49 [tantek]
fantasai - FYI I haven't started putting in those new rel values yet into anything which is going to get imminently published. I plan on speccing those rel values and adding them to the registry first.
22:19:09 [fantasai]
tantek: cool
22:19:43 [TabAtkins_]
fantasai: Heh, I'll check it out.
22:20:56 [SimonSapin]
fantasai: which is the validator that checks for broken links?
22:21:51 [tantek]
?checklink
22:21:54 [fantasai]
http://validator.w3.org/checklink
22:21:58 [tantek]
or some option like that
22:23:09 [TabAtkins_]
tantek: This is all documented on the wiki.
22:23:30 [tantek]
TabAtkins_: after my own heart. :)
22:23:31 [TabAtkins_]
http://wiki.csswg.org/spec/publish
22:23:34 [SimonSapin]
fantasai: should I just remove stuff about the previous last call in css3-page’s Status of this document?
22:23:45 [TabAtkins_]
You can thank fantasai, who wrote it all I think.
22:26:26 [TabAtkins_]
fantasai: There was just the one error in the source (about an unclosed <var>), right? And then just the rel=biblioentry crap in the generated doc?
22:46:40 [isherman-book]
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23:07:29 [SimonSapin]
TabAtkins_, fantasai: is the "applies to" line of properties supposed to talk about elements rather than boxes?
23:07:41 [SimonSapin]
boxes make so much more sense
23:07:52 [TabAtkins_]
It doesn't really mean anything in the first place.
23:07:57 [TabAtkins_]
But I dunno?
23:08:18 [fantasai]
I think it's boxes
23:08:23 [fantasai]
But CSS2.1 uses elements
23:08:36 [fantasai]
because elements ~~ boxes in CSS2.1
23:08:59 [fantasai]
there wasn't a well-understod distinction until Anton started posting comments
23:09:34 [SimonSapin]
It’s about this: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-style/2013Feb/0541.html
23:11:05 [fantasai]
I agree with just putting "Applies to: block containers"
23:12:38 [fantasai]
TabAtkins_: I didn't find a missing </var>...
23:13:12 [fantasai]
TabAtkins_: ... guess that means I missed something
23:17:16 [TabAtkins_]
Heh. Did you fix any of the errors? Because I didn't find anything besides that.
23:17:43 [ojan]
TabAtkins_: the sizing spec may have had an || for contains-floats at some point...but i'm pretty sure it doesn't now
23:17:51 [TabAtkins_]
ojan: Yeah, it doesn't.
23:18:13 [TabAtkins_]
But it's supposed to be "[ <length> | <percentage> ] || contain-floats
23:18:37 [ojan]
TabAtkins_: yeah, that seems fine.
23:18:54 [ojan]
Although, not sure why it needs to limit to min-width/min-height
23:19:36 [TabAtkins_]
ojan: Because it's establishing a minimum, not a preferred.
23:19:53 [TabAtkins_]
You want your element to be at least big enough to contain its floats.
23:20:19 [ojan]
i suppose
23:20:39 [ojan]
still...a separate property makes more sense to me.
23:23:08 [fantasai]
a separate *property*?
23:23:55 [fantasai]
I'm pretty sure you don't want that to cascade separately
23:26:39 [tantek]
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23:29:10 [SimonSapin]
fantasai, dbaron: feel free to chime in on http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-style/2013Feb/0545.html
23:30:30 [dbaron]
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23:30:56 [fantasai]
SimonSapin: Um. +1?
23:31:27 [SimonSapin]
ah sorry
23:32:00 [SimonSapin]
+1 on www-style would be great, and you can change your sender address ;)
23:52:34 [SimonSapin]
fantasai: can we break between flex lines? Should they be added to "class 1"? http://www.w3.org/TR/css3-break/#btw-blocks
23:53:37 [ojan]
fantasai: i'm not sure why you wouldn't want it to cascade separately.
23:54:19 [ojan]
in fact...the more i think about it, the more i think you would...
23:55:28 [ojan]
lets say you design a "thinger" component and you want to make sure it always contains it's floats...but then some other instance of thinger wants to set a min-width/min-height of 100px. you wouldn't want the latter to override whether the thinger contains floats
23:55:54 [ojan]
TabAtkins_: ^^^^
23:59:44 [TabAtkins_]
Hm, that sounds reasonable.