IRC log of eo on 2013-02-15

Timestamps are in UTC.

13:27:58 [RRSAgent]
RRSAgent has joined #eo
13:27:58 [RRSAgent]
logging to
13:28:00 [trackbot]
RRSAgent, make logs world
13:28:00 [Zakim]
Zakim has joined #eo
13:28:02 [trackbot]
Zakim, this will be 3694
13:28:02 [Zakim]
ok, trackbot; I see WAI_EOWG()8:30AM scheduled to start in 2 minutes
13:28:03 [trackbot]
Meeting: Education and Outreach Working Group Teleconference
13:28:03 [trackbot]
Date: 15 February 2013
13:28:32 [Zakim]
WAI_EOWG()8:30AM has now started
13:28:39 [Zakim]
13:28:40 [shawn]
shawn has changed the topic to:
13:28:57 [Sharron]
Sharron has joined #eo
13:29:07 [Sharron]
trackbot, start meeting
13:29:09 [trackbot]
RRSAgent, make logs world
13:29:11 [trackbot]
Zakim, this will be 3694
13:29:11 [Zakim]
ok, trackbot; I see WAI_EOWG()8:30AM scheduled to start in 1 minute
13:29:12 [trackbot]
Meeting: Education and Outreach Working Group Teleconference
13:29:12 [trackbot]
Date: 15 February 2013
13:29:14 [Sharron]
Chair: Shawn
13:29:20 [Sharron]
Scribe: Sharron
13:30:10 [Bim]
Bim has joined #eo
13:30:30 [Sharron]
Regrets: Wayne, Suzette, Helle (?)
13:31:42 [Bim]
zakim, call Bim-617
13:31:42 [Zakim]
ok, Bim; the call is being made
13:32:16 [LiamM]
Zakim, who is on the call?
13:32:16 [Zakim]
I notice WAI_EOWG()8:30AM has restarted
13:32:17 [Zakim]
On the phone I see Shawn, Sharron, [IPcaller], Bim
13:32:29 [LiamM]
zakim, [IPcaller] is LiamM
13:32:29 [Zakim]
+LiamM; got it
13:33:07 [sylvie]
sylvie has joined #eo
13:34:04 [Zakim]
+ +45.41.73.aaaa
13:35:01 [shawn]
regrets+ Shadi
13:35:19 [Zakim]
13:35:52 [Zakim]
+ +61.4.473.8.aabb
13:36:01 [Andrew]
zakim, aabb is Andrew
13:36:01 [Zakim]
+Andrew; got it
13:36:16 [sylvie]
zakim, mute me
13:36:16 [Zakim]
Sylvie_Duchateau should now be muted
13:36:23 [shawn]
zakim, aaaa is Helle
13:36:23 [Zakim]
+Helle; got it
13:37:15 [shawn]
zakim, who is on the phone?
13:37:15 [Zakim]
On the phone I see Shawn, Sharron, LiamM, Bim, Helle, Sylvie_Duchateau (muted), Andrew
13:37:23 [Bim]
zakim, mute me
13:37:23 [Zakim]
Bim should now be muted
13:37:41 [Sharron]
Topic: Easy Check - Page title images
13:37:53 [shawn]
13:38:04 [shawn]
wikie comments:
13:38:12 [Bim]
ack me
13:38:26 [Bim]
zakim, mute me
13:38:26 [Zakim]
Bim should now be muted
13:39:36 [Andrew]
shawn probably meant:
13:39:57 [hbj]
hbj has joined #eo
13:40:13 [hbj]
zakim, mute me
13:40:13 [Zakim]
sorry, hbj, I do not know which phone connection belongs to you
13:40:44 [Sharron]
Shawn: We have notes on this in a couple of places. Andrew suggests alt text should include browser name.
13:40:48 [shawn]
zakim, Helle is really hbj
13:40:48 [Zakim]
+hbj; got it
13:40:59 [hbj]
zakim, mute me
13:40:59 [Zakim]
hbj should now be muted
13:41:34 [shawn]
example of images for menu selections:
13:41:53 [shawn]
comments on images of menu selections:
13:43:01 [Sharron]
Shawn: Suzette said it would begin to look like a long tutorial. Perhaps just one.
13:43:30 [Sharron]
...Vicki and Andrew think the images are useful and help people understand. All images should have the same width.
13:43:44 [Bim]
ack me
13:43:56 [Bim]
13:44:17 [Sharron]
Sharron: It is an entirely personal perspective. Some people will use it well, others will find it distracting and not helpful.
13:44:35 [Bim]
13:44:49 [Sharron]
Andrew: I agree in general. I find the helpful but know that others don't. Is a toggle possible or add too much complexity?
13:45:37 [Sharron]
Shawn: We have expand/collapse already so adding another layer of show vs hide content seems like a lot. Most images will be collapsed by default.
13:46:32 [Bim]
zakim, mute me
13:46:32 [Zakim]
Bim should now be muted
13:46:37 [hbj]
13:46:38 [Sharron]
Bim: It depends of our target audience. They are non-expert. Many are not even aware that they are in a browser much less how to locate a page title. It could suit the audience we are targeting.
13:47:22 [Bim]
13:47:33 [Andrew]
13:47:38 [LiamM]
13:47:39 [Sharron]
Shawn: The proposal is to add images but only where they will add value for the target audience.
13:47:49 [Sharron]
13:48:07 [Sharron]
Shawn: Thanks to Annabelle for drafting those illustrations
13:48:50 [Sharron]
...haven't talked about it since it came out of the wiki. Let's look at it with the expand/collapse mechanisms on the first three items.
13:49:54 [Bim]
ack me
13:50:08 [Sharron]
...should Tips and Learn More be expanded or collapsed.
13:50:17 [Sharron]
Liam: Collapse it.
13:50:19 [Andrew]
13:50:29 [Zakim]
13:50:35 [shadi]
zakim, mute me
13:50:35 [Zakim]
Shadi should now be muted
13:50:38 [Sharron]
Bim: Yes, it is clear what they will get, it should be collapsed
13:51:06 [Bim]
zakim, mute me
13:51:06 [Zakim]
Bim should now be muted
13:51:10 [Zakim]
+ +1.650.348.aacc
13:51:14 [Sharron]
Shawn: Any other comments about how it looks on a real page?
13:51:19 [Sharron]
All: Yes, good
13:51:29 [Sharron]
zakim, aacc is Jennifer
13:51:29 [Zakim]
+Jennifer; got it
13:51:43 [Sharron]
Topic: Easy Checks - Next Steps section
13:51:46 [shawn]
13:52:03 [Sharron]
Andrew: Reads the paragraph.
13:54:54 [Sharron]
Shawn: The primary audience is non technical people who want a general idea about the accessiiblity of a web page.
13:55:21 [Sharron] it I am having trouble with a site, I might want to find out how accessible a site is for my own use.
13:55:51 [Sharron]
...but also high level review for experienced people, and newbies.
13:56:08 [Sharron]
Jennifer: So do we want to link from "Contacting orgs" to create that relationship.
13:56:40 [Sharron]
...I can't work this week on this. Can someone else take over?
13:57:12 [IanPouncey]
IanPouncey has joined #EO
13:57:42 [Sharron]
...I guess this heightens for me the fact that we are trying to accomplish a lot with this. We are trying to reach a very broad audience.
13:58:29 [Sharron]
Shawn: Thanks for drafting this and we can focus and think more about what we want it to say. If we step up a level let's think aobut the messages we want to convey?
13:58:36 [Andrew]
q+ to mention 2 audiences > 2 parts to section
13:59:18 [Sharron]
...First was to say what do I do with the information I found. Second, even when internal people use it, how to report it is useful as well.
13:59:28 [Sharron]
...what other points do we want to get across?
13:59:48 [Sharron]
Sharron: It conveys the preliminary aspect of the check.
14:00:16 [Zakim]
14:00:26 [IanPouncey]
Zakim, IPcaller is me
14:00:26 [Zakim]
+IanPouncey; got it
14:00:32 [shawn]
ack a
14:00:32 [Zakim]
Andrew, you wanted to mention 2 audiences > 2 parts to section
14:00:34 [Andrew]
ack me
14:01:25 [Sharron]
Jennifer: I am not necessarily committed to roles and responsibility section
14:02:00 [Sharron]
Andrew: If we introduce the next Steps with two separate sections depending on whether you are an external user or internal with related duties.
14:02:18 [Sharron]
Shawn: Good. What else do we want to convey?
14:02:32 [Sharron]
Jennifer: Do we need to link elsewhere?
14:03:11 [hbj]
zakim, unmute me
14:03:11 [Zakim]
hbj should no longer be muted
14:03:18 [Sharron]
...I had nothing specific in mind other than general informaiton like WCAG2 and other overview kinds of docs? How People with Disabilities Use the Web.
14:03:34 [Sharron]
Shawn: In the intro we link to a few.
14:03:50 [Sharron]
Jennifer: "If you missed the links in the intro...."
14:04:04 [Vicki]
Vicki has joined #eo
14:04:09 [Andrew]
14:05:14 [Vicki]
Vicki just on IRC today
14:05:15 [IanPouncey]
IanPouncey has joined #EO
14:05:34 [Vicki]
no... i can't sing to save my life
14:05:52 [hbj]
shadi are you joining eo in san diego?
14:06:44 [hbj]
zakim, mute me
14:06:44 [Zakim]
hbj should now be muted
14:08:23 [Sharron]
Jennifer: Make sure to remove roles and responsibilities from intro.
14:08:42 [Sharron]
Shawn: Thanks so much Jennifer for giving us this draft.
14:08:47 [Andrew]
s/from intro/from Next Steps
14:09:05 [Sharron]
Topic: Check in on sections
14:09:18 [Sharron]
Shawn: Ian, where are we on text size and zoom.
14:09:39 [Sharron]
Ian: I had nothing to add it was more the question of whether it is included or not, do we recommend a browser or not?
14:10:05 [Sharron]
Topic: Zoom and Text Size section
14:10:06 [shawn]
14:10:20 [shadi]
ack me
14:10:39 [Sharron]
Shawn: A couple of things. I also have a question about BAD - do any pages that break with zoom?
14:10:40 [shawn]
Question for Shadi or others: Are there any BAD pages that break with text or page zoom?
14:11:02 [Sharron]
Shadi: I believe the News page was meant to but browsers have improved.
14:12:00 [Zakim]
14:12:47 [shadi]
zakim, mute me
14:12:47 [Zakim]
Shadi should now be muted
14:13:25 [Sharron]
Shawn: Ian can you take a look at how the other sections are drafted?
14:13:29 [shawn]
ian look at <>
14:14:24 [Andrew]
suggest inlcuding instructions for returning to normal (i.e. ctrl-0) and/or decrease zoom (i.e. Ctrl -)
14:15:37 [Sharron]
Shawn: When we talked about it before, we decided to decrease emphasis on 200% and a few other things.
14:15:54 [Andrew]
also suggest including how many Ctrl +s are needed for 200%
14:16:12 [Sharron]
Ian: what was the specific recommendation?
14:16:32 [Bim]
ack me
14:16:40 [Sharron]
Shawn: To talk about zoom but not as much about 200%, since if most pages break, they break early.
14:17:12 [Sharron]
Bim: Isn't the current escalation 6 increases to reach 200%?
14:17:19 [Sharron]
Sharron: I thought it was 5.
14:17:26 [Sharron]
Ian: I can look it up.
14:17:43 [Sharron]
Bim: Especially if we are going to use a specific browser, that is a good way.
14:17:43 [Bim]
zakim, mute me
14:17:43 [Zakim]
Bim should now be muted
14:18:04 [Sharron]
Andrew: Also tell them how to zoom back down so theya re not stuck in zoomed mode.
14:18:16 [Sharron]
Shawn: Yes how to get back to default.
14:18:38 [Andrew]
s/ theya re/ they are/
14:19:01 [Sharron]
...I am looking at What to Do and don't think for this one we need that. Or do we think it is sufficient to check in several different browsers?
14:19:02 [Bim]
ack me
14:19:27 [Sharron]
Ian: I would recommend in a version of IE
14:19:51 [Sharron]
Shawn: Do any of the other browsers have that?
14:20:05 [Sharron]
Ian: Chrome but it is buried many layers deep.
14:21:13 [Sharron]
Shawn: Do we want to recommend a path?
14:21:33 [Sharron] any versions NOT support zoom?
14:21:39 [Sharron]
Ian: IE6
14:21:44 [Bim]
zakim, mute me
14:21:44 [Zakim]
Bim should now be muted
14:22:19 [shadi]
or just "in most browsers"
14:22:24 [Sharron]
Shawn: Can we say "all major browsers except IE6 and earlier"?
14:22:56 [Bim]
ack me
14:23:44 [Sharron] far we have only two references to browsers.
14:23:59 [Sharron]
Andrew: Could say "if youa re using IE..."
14:24:09 [Bim]
zakim, mute me
14:24:09 [Zakim]
Bim should now be muted
14:24:12 [shadi]
14:24:25 [Andrew]
s/youa re/you are/
14:26:29 [Sharron]
Shawn: See if we can do without the note that references a specific requirement?
14:26:37 [Bim]
zakim, mute me
14:26:37 [Zakim]
Bim was already muted, Bim
14:26:45 [Sharron]
Andrew: Should it be referenced further up as one of the things to look for?
14:27:19 [Andrew]
s/Should it be/Should horizontal scrolling be/
14:27:34 [Sharron]
Ian: It depends. It could get a scroll bar at some point. Depends on window size and others. It could impact the pass/fail status.
14:28:02 [Sharron]
Andrew: Some of the others are not clear as well, but just indicate a potential issue.
14:28:17 [Bim]
ack me
14:28:42 [Sharron]
Ian: But how do you know of a potential issue. I have a small screen, horizontal scrolling could be needed without breaking WCAG.
14:28:48 [Andrew]
happy to drop it
14:29:06 [Sharron]
Bim: It is a AAA criteria in any case, aren't we getting too detailed for this?
14:29:15 [Bim]
zakim, mute me
14:29:15 [Zakim]
Bim should now be muted
14:29:31 [Sharron]
Andrew; Yes I don't think we need to mention horizontal scroll. It is problematic.
14:30:01 [Sharron]
Shawn: We want to explain the basics so they know what they are checking but not so much that it becomes like a full tutorial.
14:30:13 [Sharron]
...are you good to take another edit pass?
14:30:28 [Sharron]
Ian: Horizontal scrolling only applies to text?
14:30:49 [Sharron]
Shawn: Would you be able to do the edit pass by Wednesday?
14:30:49 [Andrew]
zakim, who is making noise
14:30:49 [Zakim]
I don't understand 'who is making noise', Andrew
14:31:23 [Andrew]
zakim, who is making noise?
14:31:27 [Sharron]
Ian: to take an edit pass at the text size and zoom section - due by Wednesday 2/20
14:31:34 [Zakim]
Andrew, listening for 11 seconds I heard sound from the following: Shawn (89%), LiamM (54%)
14:31:37 [Sharron]
ACTION: Ian: to take an edit pass at the text size and zoom section - due by Wednesday 2/20
14:31:38 [trackbot]
Created ACTION-273 - take an edit pass at the text size and zoom section [on Ian Pouncey - due 1970-01-01].
14:32:09 [Sharron]
Shawn: Sharron, are you availability to work on your sections by Wednesday?
14:32:10 [shawn]
zakim, who is making noise?
14:32:15 [Sharron]
Sharron: Yes
14:32:22 [Zakim]
shawn, listening for 11 seconds I heard sound from the following: Shawn (68%), Sharron (4%), LiamM (45%)
14:32:33 [Sharron]
Shawn: Andrew, keyboard equivalents?
14:33:05 [Sharron]
Andrew: Yes have made a start and will do more over the weekend.
14:33:21 [Sharron]
Shawn: Can we do informal testing at CSUN with what we have?
14:34:17 [Sharron]
Andrew: If we do not see it is good shape, people will be more likely to comment the less polished it is.
14:34:53 [shawn]
usability testing notes:
14:35:23 [Sharron]
Shawn: We have a section on the questions we want to ask, to look for in the usability testing we might do at CSUN. Please think about and add to those questions about insights we might want to get from people there.
14:35:57 [Sharron]
...we'll talk more about that next week. Anything else on Easy Checks?
14:37:29 [shadi]
14:37:32 [Sharron]
Shawn: And those who won't be at CSUN are encouraged to use it as well in your own testing.
14:37:35 [Vicki]
Start with accessibility:
14:37:42 [Sharron]
Topic: Start with Accessibility
14:38:12 [shawn]
14:38:20 [Sharron]
Shawn: Vicki has done a lot of work on this. If you follow the link from the agenda. and if you want a cleaner version, there is a link in IRC
14:39:12 [Sharron]
...Vicki, we have not looked at this for a while.
14:40:13 [shadi]
14:40:24 [shadi]
ack me
14:40:28 [Sharron]
Vicki: Many comments, made by Suzette and others have made it into a different shape, more high level, will continue to make it less technical. It has changed quite a bit. If you can look and comment by Monday I will have a time to be on the phone with you. It is now more project oriented.
14:41:16 [Sharron]
Shadi: It has really changed and I am very pleased with how it has changed. I wonder about overlap with Implementation Plan for Accessiiblity which it seems more similar to in ths version.
14:41:32 [shadi]
zakim, mute me
14:41:32 [Zakim]
Shadi should now be muted
14:41:33 [shawn]
overlap with other documents:
14:42:39 [Sharron]
Vicki: There is overlap, but the purpose and use seems to me quite distinct.
14:43:13 [shadi]
14:43:26 [Sharron]
Shawn: Can you take a look and see if perhap we do not want two documents. Perhaps this will replace the other to significantly change the Implementation Plan.
14:43:51 [shadi]
ack me
14:44:01 [Sharron]
Sharron: Should everyone look at both and comment on that question?
14:44:48 [Sharron]
Shadi: I know the goals of this document have been a moving target. Should we review the goals of each?
14:44:57 [shadi]
zakim, mute me
14:44:57 [Zakim]
Shadi should now be muted
14:46:11 [shadi]
14:46:28 [shadi]
ack me
14:46:43 [Sharron]
Shawn: yes good point. To counteract the fact that we are doing a lot of publication of evaluation materials, we need to insert thinking about accessiiblity earlier in a process so that it does not become an add on at the very end.
14:46:49 [hbj]
zakim, unmute me
14:46:49 [Zakim]
hbj should no longer be muted
14:47:04 [Sharron]
...that was the goal of the Start with Accessibility document.
14:47:42 [Sharron]
Helle: I was just looking at the implementation plan. It was update a bit in 2011, but otherwise is quite old. Do we want to put this in in place of that one?
14:48:06 [Sharron]
Shawn: That is what we are trying to decide. Shadi, how does it relate to WAI-ACT?
14:48:52 [Sharron]
Shadi: An update for the implementation plan is part of what is expected from WAI-ACT.
14:49:32 [hbj]
14:50:19 [Sharron]
...this was meant to suggest ways to get accessiiblity consideration moved earlier into the development process. Now it looks more like accesisiblity planning and budgeting more than what the initial goal had been. The question is have we moved so far away from our orignal goal which was to have accessiiblity in the beginning of a process.
14:50:41 [Sharron]
Heel: We have a paper somewhere about accessiiblity throughout a process. Is that part of this?
14:50:59 [Sharron]
14:51:29 [Sharron]
...we talked about the development of policy and implementation somewhere.
14:51:51 [Vicki]
14:52:08 [Sharron]
Shadi: Yes, it pops up in many documents but what we don't say is HOW to consider accessiiblity early in a proecess.
14:52:53 [Sharron]
Vicki: I looked at this from the POV that it is important to consider accessibility early and how to get everyone bought into the process. The need to get all stakeholders engaged.
14:53:04 [Sharron]
Shadi: That is where the overlap begins.
14:53:26 [Sharron]
...while it is outdated guidance in the Implementation plan, the goals are strongly overlapping.
14:54:01 [Sharron]
Shawn: I don't have clear concpet either of how these documents relate to each other.
14:54:19 [Sharron]
Helle: Can this one be the start of teh revision of the older one?
14:54:36 [Sharron]
...could we look at them together and see if we can't do some re-use?
14:56:00 [hbj]
zakim, mute me
14:56:00 [Zakim]
hbj should now be muted
14:56:22 [Sharron]
Shawn: I wonder if we are prepared for this discussion about how they relate and what direction to take.
14:56:34 [Sharron]
...perhaps we can think aobut this and talk about it next week.
14:57:11 [Sharron]
...Vicki what is your availability to work on this and consider the relation between this and the other WAI documents.
14:58:23 [Sharron]
Sharron: So what do we do about the goal for this - evaluation early in the process?
14:59:04 [Sharron]
Shawn: We started with that and then made the decision to broaden the goal. The question now is have we lost the specific goal in drawing this bigger picture?
15:00:29 [Sharron]
Shadi: I am looking at the earlier version. At the different stages of development we had some checklists and things to do early. Slowly we have stepped back and ended up with a higher level view rather than particular steps regarding accessibility checking. How did we make that decision?
15:01:13 [Sharron]
Shawn: We decided not to make a checklist. In terms of project management, it is something that Vicki knows a lot about.
15:01:52 [Sharron]
Vicki: I went into a lot of detail about what to do in the early versions. It was becoming too detailed and as a groups decided it would be a more high level document.
15:02:14 [shadi]
zakim, mute me
15:02:14 [Zakim]
Shadi should now be muted
15:03:27 [Sharron]
Shawn: We should keep the priority on the Easy Checks but if some time is available over the week end to review and think about the positioning of this work related to existng WAI documents as well as current work.
15:03:37 [Sharron]
...any addiitonal comments?
15:03:45 [Zakim]
15:03:58 [Andrew]
s/addiitonal /additional /
15:04:09 [Sharron]
Topic: Face to Face
15:04:48 [Sharron]
Shawn: Plan now is to meet for a long, working brunch. On Monday we have the library from noon and on Tuesday we have the room from 9:00 am
15:05:04 [Sharron]
...that seems like a good time for you to join, Vicki.
15:06:00 [Sharron]
...I will have a detailed agenda for reveiw next week.
15:06:20 [Sharron]
...have found a location for brunch but costs seemed high.
15:07:23 [Sharron]
Jennifer: It's California, not likely to look for anything less expensive.
15:09:03 [Andrew]
open: monday thru friday 7:30am-10:30pm
15:09:48 [Andrew]
two eggs over easy with bacon, baguette & herb butter 9. - seems ok
15:10:02 [hbj]
+1 looks good
15:12:04 [hbj]
15:12:14 [Sharron]
Shawn: Will put addresses on the logistics page for the F2F
15:12:49 [Sharron]
Jennifer: Will anybody be driving to the brunch spot?
15:13:32 [Sharron]
...will coordinate off line
15:14:23 [Vicki]
15:14:41 [Sharron]
Shawn: Thanks all, will stay in touch by email.
15:14:53 [Vicki]
15:14:59 [Vicki]
Vicki has left #eo
15:15:02 [Sharron]
trackbot, end meeting
15:15:02 [trackbot]
Zakim, list attendees
15:15:02 [Zakim]
As of this point the attendees have been Shawn, Sharron, Bim, LiamM, +45.41.73.aaaa, Sylvie_Duchateau, +61.4.473.8.aabb, Andrew, hbj, Shadi, +1.650.348.aacc, Jennifer, IanPouncey,
15:15:06 [Zakim]
... [IPcaller]
15:15:06 [Zakim]
15:15:06 [Zakim]
15:15:06 [Zakim]
15:15:06 [Zakim]
15:15:06 [Zakim]
15:15:07 [Zakim]
15:15:07 [Zakim]
15:15:09 [Zakim]
15:15:10 [trackbot]
RRSAgent, please draft minutes
15:15:10 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate trackbot
15:15:11 [trackbot]
RRSAgent, bye
15:15:11 [RRSAgent]
I see 1 open action item saved in :
15:15:11 [RRSAgent]
ACTION: Ian: to take an edit pass at the text size and zoom section - due by Wednesday 2/20 [1]
15:15:11 [RRSAgent]
recorded in
15:15:13 [Zakim]