14:56:37 <RRSAgent> RRSAgent has joined #tt
14:56:37 <RRSAgent> logging to http://www.w3.org/2013/02/14-tt-irc
14:56:39 <trackbot> RRSAgent, make logs public
14:56:39 <Zakim> Zakim has joined #tt
14:56:41 <trackbot> Zakim, this will be TTML
14:56:41 <Zakim> ok, trackbot; I see SYMM_TTWG()10:00AM scheduled to start in 4 minutes
14:56:42 <trackbot> Meeting: Timed Text Working Group Teleconference
14:56:42 <trackbot> Date: 14 February 2013
14:56:46 <mmartin3> Chair:
14:56:50 <mmartin3> Sean Hayes
14:56:57 <mmartin3> scribenick: mmartin3
14:57:12 <mmartin3> Agenda:
14:57:22 <Zakim> SYMM_TTWG()10:00AM has now started
14:57:29 <Zakim> + +1.408.216.aaaa
14:57:49 <Zakim> + +44.118.900.aabb
14:58:35 <mmartin3> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-tt/2013Feb/0037.html
14:58:42 <mmartin3> Regrets: None
14:59:43 <Zakim> + +1.408.335.aacc
15:00:08 <Zakim> + +1.858.847.aadd
15:00:29 <pal> pal has joined #tt
15:00:39 <mike> mike has joined #tt
15:01:30 <Zakim> +pal
15:01:44 <Zakim> + +1.417.671.aaee
15:01:49 <Zakim> - +1.408.335.aacc
15:01:56 <Zakim> +[Microsoft]
15:02:03 <glenn> zakim, aaee is me
15:02:03 <Zakim> +glenn; got it
15:02:19 <mmartin3> zakim, list attendees
15:02:19 <Zakim> As of this point the attendees have been +1.408.216.aaaa, +44.118.900.aabb, +1.408.335.aacc, +1.858.847.aadd, pal, +1.417.671.aaee, [Microsoft], glenn
15:02:28 <Sean> zakim, aabb is me
15:02:28 <Zakim> +Sean; got it
15:03:31 <glenn> zakim, who's on the phone?
15:03:32 <Zakim> On the phone I see +1.408.216.aaaa, Sean, +1.858.847.aadd, pal, glenn, [Microsoft]
15:03:41 <mmartin3> zakim, Microsoft is mmartin3
15:03:41 <Zakim> +mmartin3; got it
15:03:45 <glenn> zakim, aadd is mike
15:03:45 <Zakim> +mike; got it
15:04:07 <Anthony> Anthony has joined #tt
15:04:46 <mmartin3> zakim, who is on the phone?
15:04:46 <Zakim> On the phone I see +1.408.216.aaaa, Sean, mike, pal, glenn, mmartin3
15:04:51 <glenn> zakim, aaaa is Anthony
15:04:54 <Zakim> +Anthony; got it
15:05:16 <Zakim> + +1.408.515.aaff
15:05:16 <glenn> zakim, who's on the phone?
15:05:17 <Zakim> On the phone I see Anthony, Sean, mike, pal, glenn, mmartin3, +1.408.515.aaff (muted)
15:05:51 <mmartin3> zakim, list attendees
15:05:51 <Zakim> As of this point the attendees have been +1.408.216.aaaa, +44.118.900.aabb, +1.408.335.aacc, +1.858.847.aadd, pal, +1.417.671.aaee, glenn, Sean, mmartin3, mike, Anthony,
15:05:54 <Zakim> ... +1.408.515.aaff
15:06:27 <glenn> zakim, aaff is Davic_Ronca
15:06:27 <Zakim> +Davic_Ronca; got it
15:06:37 <mmartin3> TOPIC: Aspect Ratio
15:06:42 <glenn> zakim, Davic_Ronca is David_Ronca
15:06:42 <Zakim> +David_Ronca; got it
15:06:43 <mmartin3> Netflix presentation:
15:07:01 <mmartin3> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-tt/2013Feb/0036.html
15:07:39 <mmartin3> anthony: Positioning and aspect ratio are becoming a problem because of the content of what we receive from providers.
15:07:41 <plh> plh has joined #tt
15:07:45 <Zakim> +Plh
15:07:51 <mmartin3> ...Slide 1
15:08:09 <mmartin3> s/1/3
15:08:34 <mmartin3> ...Slide 4 authoring intent
15:08:47 <mmartin3> ...Slide 5
15:09:27 <mmartin3> ...Captions can be delivered and displayed on a different aspect ratio.
15:11:49 <mmartin3> ...Slide 7 what is rendered isn't what the author intended
15:12:18 <mmartin3> ...Rendering interpretations
15:13:33 <mmartin3> ...Slide 10 Disregard the 320x240px note
15:13:44 <mmartin3> ...We favor #4.
15:13:49 <mmartin3> ...Slide 10.
15:14:12 <mmartin3> ...Aligns to Proposal #1 in Slide 11.
15:15:27 <mmartin3> sean: Would need to intend that there is centering in the display area as well.
15:15:55 <mmartin3> anthony: Neither proposal clarifies this.
15:16:34 <mmartin3> glenn: We don't have a model on how to express authoring intent for registering the root container extent with a related media object for display or video.
15:16:50 <mmartin3> ...If we choose to handle, we have to look to this general problem.
15:17:47 <mmartin3> ...Singer asked if transforming video resolution, why couldn't you do captions?
15:18:52 <mmartin3> ....Origins match root container extent in examples. This is different than we defined regions. Regions are designed differently.
15:19:18 <mmartin3> ...Percentages to position regions according to a 4x3 area no matter what the video resolution was. What happens in that case?
15:20:23 <mmartin3> anthony: If we knew aspect ratio, we could position regions on 4x3 aspect ratio. Issue is we don't know of the aspect ratio of the video at authoring.
15:20:32 <mijordan> mijordan has joined #tt
15:20:45 <mmartin3> glenn: Could have 4x3 and 16x9.
15:21:13 <mmartin3> david: Captioning tooling have limitations. They typically don't use master video when generate captions.
15:21:19 <mmartin3> c/generate/generating
15:21:28 <mmartin3> s/generate/genereating
15:21:34 <mmartin3> s/generate/generating
15:21:50 <Zakim> +Andrew_Kirkpatrick
15:22:02 <mmartin3> ...Use a proxy and the proxy may not be known and the video for delivery.
15:22:15 <mijordan> Zakim, Andrew_Kirkpatrick is mijordan
15:22:15 <Zakim> +mijordan; got it
15:22:21 <mmartin3> sean: Are they making decisions with what they want to align with video pixels or a general arae.
15:22:26 <mmartin3> s/arae/area
15:22:42 <mmartin3> david: Most of what we see is intended for 4x3.
15:23:01 <mmartin3> ...Interpret intent.
15:23:14 <mmartin3> ...CEA-608 data 4x3
15:23:21 <mmartin3> ...SMPTE
15:23:49 <mmartin3> ...Conformance is widely varied. Give guidance to content houses.
15:24:22 <mmartin3> mike: CEA-608 didn't solve this problem because it was 4x3 only. This is a hole in the end to end processing.
15:25:07 <mmartin3> ...External data with aspect ratio relayed separately.
15:26:08 <mmartin3> ...DECE whatever you have done, stretch to width and height of video. This is a deterministic option. CEA-708 SMPTE new release sets aspect ratio as metadata. Don't know how to generalize style element to handle.
15:26:52 <mmartin3> sean: Pixels is based on XSL which is the wrong measure and need something else for consistency. Issues are related.
15:27:30 <mmartin3> ...No video object in TTML
15:27:44 <mmartin3> ...SDP-US does and maps to Proposal #1.
15:28:24 <mmartin3> ...TTML could be positioned to HTML5; many videos could be present. There are different interpretations given the assets involved.
15:28:41 <mmartin3> ...Add notes. Complete fix isn't found in this proposal.
15:29:17 <mmartin3> anthony: We align to video.
15:29:40 <mmartin3> sean: Unless you understand the application and the pipeline, you can't express in TTML.
15:29:56 <mmartin3> ...Constraints could be applied in your implementation or in a profile.
15:30:29 <mmartin3> david: Our client may not be doing presentation. We may deliver to a game console which renders the captions.
15:30:56 <mmartin3> ...We have to be able to tell a client here is an asset and know how to display.
15:31:34 <mmartin3> ...Working with device partners how to resolve how to render. Prefer a standard guide.
15:32:17 <mmartin3> david: We can specify what is intended. Otherwise, we also need to give client guidance on what to do. Different entities in the pipeline.
15:32:28 <mmartin3> mike: Make it better even if not entirely.
15:32:52 <mmartin3> ...Use metadata.
15:33:04 <mmartin3> ...Skeptical to satisfy for all cases in TTML.
15:33:34 <mmartin3> sean: Solved in SDP-US profile already.
15:33:40 <mmartin3> mike: Clearly unambiguous in DECE.
15:34:25 <mmartin3> ...Use SMPTE metadata that is defined?
15:35:18 <mmartin3> anthony: Working on our own captions. Caption studios are creating content. Small % are CEA-608, -708.
15:35:30 <mmartin3> david: Seeing a lot of CEA-608 and old EBU.
15:35:55 <mmartin3> ...A mess of caption world. Not designed for scale. Government requirements are a stress on ecosystem.
15:36:19 <mmartin3> ...Large effort to author and manage.
15:36:40 <mmartin3> glenn: If SMPTE asked for metadata, satisfy?
15:37:26 <mmartin3> sean: Can use metadata today.
15:37:47 <mmartin3> ...Has no semantic interpretation. There is no guarantee it will be displayed in that wya.
15:37:51 <mmartin3> s/wya/way
15:38:11 <mmartin3> pal: Define metadata and author intent. Figure out how profiles use metadata is separate.
15:38:24 <mmartin3> glenn: Won't define semantics for how a tool uses metadata.
15:39:56 <mmartin3> sean: General solution is to have a mechanism to reference where the existence of the region is. Top Left isn't the same in 4x3 and 16x9.
15:40:44 <mmartin3> ...We don't have tools to accommodate. That would be part of TTML 1.1.
15:41:14 <mmartin3> ...Immediately, if we take Proposal #1, we can't guarantee players do the same thing.
15:41:27 <mmartin3> anthony: Need long term soluton.
15:41:39 <mmartin3> ...Netflix specific metadata tag.
15:42:05 <mmartin3> sean: Use SMPTE metadata tag.
15:42:13 <mmartin3> ...Doesn't have rendering model.
15:42:30 <mmartin3> ...Fold into Issue #179.
15:42:44 <mmartin3> ...Resolve in TTML 1.1.
15:43:47 <mmartin3> Technical report: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-tt/2013Jan/0006.html
15:43:55 <mmartin3> mike: Doesn't include aspect ratio for CEA-708.
15:44:13 <mmartin3> sean: Mike provide relevant data.
15:44:36 <mmartin3> http://www.w3.org/AudioVideo/TT/tracker/issues/179
15:45:33 <mmartin3> Issue Anthony How to specify aspect ratio to understand positioning that may apply for display or video.
15:46:10 <mmartin3> Create Issue Anthony How to specify aspect ratio to understand positioning that may apply for display or video
15:47:02 <mmartin3> pal: SMPTE when will we walk through SMPTE request? How do we handle from a process perspective?
15:47:17 <mmartin3> sean: Put in semantic buckets to handle in TTML 1.1.
15:48:20 <mmartin3> mike: Encourage vendors to look at a profile to implement captions. Look at SDP-US.
15:49:07 <mmartin3> david: Ingest is challenging. We use a constrainted TTML set to deploy.
15:49:16 <mmartin3> mike: Evaluate SDP-US.
15:49:26 <mmartin3> david: Have own profile.
15:49:44 <mmartin3> pal: No complete TTML implementation everywhere.
15:49:53 <mmartin3> ...In practice is to follow a documented subset.
15:50:09 <mmartin3> ...Look at SDP-US and body of generated documents to see gaps.
15:50:22 <mmartin3> ...Extended profile or SDP-US or other.
15:50:39 <mmartin3> sean: Use for your use case.
15:51:16 <mmartin3> david: Work with PLH on ensuring Netflix are fully part of TTWG.
15:51:50 <mmartin3> ...Netflix has own profile for required and optional features. We're not using pubic SDP-US.
15:52:43 <mmartin3> pal: Stated requirements are that the generated documents had to be able to play on clients not under Netflix control. No implementation will do all of TTML. Follow constrained profiles only. By not following one of those, there will be clients that can't play Netflix documents.
15:53:05 <mmartin3> ...Desire to use more standard one if we can get display issue resolved.
15:54:13 <mmartin3> anthony: Our profile is exactly a subset of that profile.
15:54:20 <mmartin3> sean: Where are you in conflict?
15:54:33 <mmartin3> ...Your content should render as well.
15:54:42 <mmartin3> ...Defined rendering.
15:55:17 <mmartin3> zakim, list attendees.
15:55:17 <Zakim> As of this point the attendees have been +1.408.216.aaaa, +44.118.900.aabb, +1.408.335.aacc, +1.858.847.aadd, pal, +1.417.671.aaee, glenn, Sean, mmartin3, mike, Anthony,
15:55:20 <Zakim> ... +1.408.515.aaff, David_Ronca, Plh, mijordan
15:55:24 <Zakim> -glenn
15:55:26 <mmartin3> trackbot, end meeting
15:55:26 <trackbot> Zakim, list attendees
15:55:27 <Zakim> As of this point the attendees have been +1.408.216.aaaa, +44.118.900.aabb, +1.408.335.aacc, +1.858.847.aadd, pal, +1.417.671.aaee, glenn, Sean, mmartin3, mike, Anthony,
15:55:27 <Zakim> ... +1.408.515.aaff, David_Ronca, Plh, mijordan
15:55:27 <Zakim> -mike
15:55:27 <Zakim> -mijordan
15:55:29 <Zakim> -pal
15:55:29 <Zakim> -David_Ronca
15:55:32 <Zakim> -Sean
15:55:32 <Zakim> -Plh
15:55:34 <Zakim> -Anthony
15:55:34 <trackbot> RRSAgent, please draft minutes
15:55:34 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2013/02/14-tt-minutes.html trackbot
15:55:35 <trackbot> RRSAgent, bye
15:55:35 <RRSAgent> I see no action items
16:08:08 <RRSAgent> RRSAgent has joined #tt
16:08:08 <RRSAgent> logging to http://www.w3.org/2013/02/14-tt-irc
16:08:11 <plh> rrsagent, generate minutes
16:08:11 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2013/02/14-tt-minutes.html plh
16:08:36 <plh> Chair: Sean Hayes
16:08:43 <plh> Scribe: Monica Martin
16:08:45 <plh> rrsagent, generate minutes
16:08:45 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2013/02/14-tt-minutes.html plh
16:10:12 <plh> rrsagent, bye
16:10:17 <plh> rrsagent, make logs public-visible
16:10:20 <plh> rrsagent, bye
16:10:20 <RRSAgent> I see no action items