IRC log of i18n on 2013-02-14

Timestamps are in UTC.

15:49:31 [RRSAgent]
RRSAgent has joined #i18n
15:49:31 [RRSAgent]
logging to
15:49:37 [Zakim]
Zakim has joined #i18n
15:49:44 [aphillip]
trackbot, prepare teleconference
15:49:46 [trackbot]
RRSAgent, make logs world
15:49:48 [trackbot]
Zakim, this will be 4186
15:49:48 [Zakim]
ok, trackbot; I see I18N_CoreWG()11:00AM scheduled to start in 11 minutes
15:49:49 [trackbot]
Meeting: Internationalization Working Group Teleconference
15:49:49 [trackbot]
Date: 14 February 2013
15:50:05 [aphillip]
15:50:19 [aphillip]
agenda+ Isolating Direction in HTML5
15:50:30 [aphillip]
agenda+ Ruby Annotation Extension Spec
15:50:50 [aphillip]
agenda+ Moving Forward Bidi Change Proposal
15:51:16 [aphillip]
rrsagent, draft minutes
15:51:16 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate aphillip
15:54:41 [DavidClarke]
DavidClarke has joined #I18n
15:55:14 [DavidClarke]
I'm unlikely to be able to phone in today
15:58:51 [r12a]
addison, i think you need to explain shepherding to aharon - esp that no subject matter expertise is especially required
15:59:20 [r12a]
s/addison, i think you need to explain shepherding to aharon - esp that no subject matter expertise is especially required//
16:00:15 [matial]
matial has joined #i18n
16:00:27 [Zakim]
I18N_CoreWG()11:00AM has now started
16:00:32 [fsasaki]
fsasaki has joined #i18n
16:00:40 [r12a]
zakim, dial richard please
16:00:40 [Zakim]
ok, r12a; the call is being made
16:00:50 [Zakim]
16:00:57 [r12a]
zakim, this will be i18n
16:00:57 [Zakim]
ok, r12a, I see I18N_CoreWG()11:00AM already started
16:01:04 [r12a]
zakim, who's here?
16:01:04 [Zakim]
On the phone I see aphillip
16:01:05 [Zakim]
On IRC I see fsasaki, matial, DavidClarke, Zakim, RRSAgent, aphillip, r12a, trackbot
16:01:12 [r12a]
zakim, dial richard please
16:01:13 [Zakim]
ok, r12a; the call is being made
16:01:13 [Zakim]
16:01:22 [Zakim]
16:01:38 [Zakim]
16:01:39 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate fsasaki
16:01:49 [matial]
zakim, ??p15 is me
16:01:49 [Zakim]
+matial; got it
16:02:18 [fsasaki]
chair: aphillip
16:02:20 [fsasaki]
scribe: fsasaki
16:02:31 [aphillip]
rrsagent, draft minutes
16:02:31 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate aphillip
16:02:34 [aphillip]
Regrets: Norbert
16:02:43 [Zakim]
+ +1.617.245.aaaa
16:03:18 [fsasaki]
present: aphilip, davidClarke(IRC), john, matial, r12a
16:03:37 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate fsasaki
16:03:44 [aphillip]
16:03:57 [fsasaki]
present+ fsasaki
16:03:59 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate fsasaki
16:04:07 [John_C_Klensin]
John_C_Klensin has joined #i18n
16:05:02 [aphillip]
Topic: Agenda
16:05:28 [fsasaki]
topic: action items
16:05:38 [fsasaki]
16:05:38 [trackbot]
ACTION-165 -- Richard Ishida to contact Tab about plans to make the ruby spec extension -- due 2012-12-12 -- OPEN
16:05:38 [trackbot]
16:05:45 [fsasaki]
richard: can be closed
16:05:50 [fsasaki]
close action-165
16:05:50 [trackbot]
Closed ACTION-165 Contact Tab about plans to make the ruby spec extension.
16:06:04 [fsasaki]
richard: robin berjon has produced an HTML extension draft
16:06:07 [fsasaki]
16:06:07 [trackbot]
ACTION-166 -- Richard Ishida to inform wg when bidi documents are ready for review -- due 2012-12-12 -- OPEN
16:06:07 [trackbot]
16:06:09 [Zakim]
+ +1.408.536.aabb
16:06:17 [fsasaki]
close action-166
16:06:17 [trackbot]
Closed ACTION-166 Inform wg when bidi documents are ready for review.
16:06:22 [fsasaki]
richard: ready for review
16:06:29 [fsasaki]
16:06:29 [trackbot]
ACTION-170 -- Addison Phillips to coordinate with richard regarding KLReq -- due 2013-01-16 -- OPEN
16:06:29 [trackbot]
16:06:36 [aharon]
aharon has joined #i18n
16:06:39 [fsasaki]
aphillip: placeholder
16:06:41 [fsasaki]
16:06:41 [trackbot]
ACTION-174 -- Addison Phillips to write article about floating times in HTML -- due 2013-01-30 -- OPEN
16:06:41 [trackbot]
16:06:50 [fsasaki]
aphillip: have started this
16:06:52 [aphillip]
16:07:17 [fsasaki]
aphillip: feel free to comment. Have xxx third of the text in
16:07:21 [fsasaki]
16:07:21 [trackbot]
ACTION-175 -- Richard Ishida to contact Robin Berjon about what he's doing wrt ruby extension work -- due 2013-01-30 -- OPEN
16:07:21 [trackbot]
16:07:25 [fsasaki]
richard: done
16:07:32 [fsasaki]
close action-175
16:07:32 [trackbot]
Closed ACTION-175 Contact Robin Berjon about what he's doing wrt ruby extension work.
16:07:35 [fsasaki]
16:07:35 [trackbot]
ACTION-176 -- Addison Phillips to ping anne about encoding spec -- due 2013-02-07 -- OPEN
16:07:35 [trackbot]
16:07:46 [fsasaki]
aphillip: will keep open
16:07:49 [Zakim]
16:07:54 [fsasaki]
16:07:54 [trackbot]
ACTION-177 -- Addison Phillips to establish scribing rotation -- due 2013-02-07 -- CLOSED
16:07:54 [trackbot]
16:08:01 [fsasaki]
16:08:01 [trackbot]
ACTION-178 -- Norbert Lindenberg to coordinate proposing text for ITS directionality with richard -- due 2013-02-07 -- CLOSED
16:08:01 [trackbot]
16:08:09 [fsasaki]
present+ aaron
16:08:16 [fsasaki]
present+ johnOConner
16:08:22 [fsasaki]
16:08:22 [trackbot]
ACTION-182 -- Richard Ishida to send note with updated text for directionality to MLW-LT -- due 2013-02-14 -- OPEN
16:08:22 [trackbot]
16:08:32 [joconner]
joconner has joined #i18n
16:08:35 [fsasaki]
16:08:35 [trackbot]
ACTION-183 -- Addison Phillips to write draft of new charmod-norm -- due 2013-02-14 -- OPEN
16:08:35 [trackbot]
16:08:43 [fsasaki]
aphillip: not done yet
16:08:45 [fsasaki]
16:08:51 [aphillip]
Topic: Info Share
16:09:02 [fsasaki]
ack me
16:09:52 [fsasaki]
aphillip: john klensin joined as invited expert, welcome!
16:10:19 [fsasaki]
johnC: have worked on i18n issues on IETF and ICANN for some years, IDN and other topics
16:10:44 [fsasaki]
... felt to participate in this work no an ongoing basis rather than complaining later
16:10:52 [fsasaki]
aphillip: great, welcome!
16:10:58 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate fsasaki
16:11:14 [fsasaki]
johnC: recently adobe received funding to work on ITS2
16:11:24 [fsasaki]
.. we are attempting to add tags to jack rabbit
16:11:34 [fsasaki]
aphillip: cool
16:11:36 [fsasaki]
16:11:49 [fsasaki]
very cool, joconner :)
16:12:02 [fsasaki]
richard: what is jack rabbit?
16:12:14 [fsasaki]
joconner: an open source repository
16:12:24 [fsasaki]
.. would like to add the ITS tags into the schema for content
16:12:50 [fsasaki]
richard: this week published program for MLW workshop in rome
16:13:02 [fsasaki]
.. if you want to go register asap. many spaces are taken already
16:13:22 [fsasaki]
.. have a good program
16:13:29 [fsasaki]
.. Mark Davis is doing the keynote
16:13:48 [fsasaki]
.. have the usual format with many different people in the room who haven't met before
16:13:58 [fsasaki]
.. other topic - bidi in HTML work:
16:14:21 [koji]
koji has joined #i18n
16:14:25 [fsasaki]
.. some of the things work, thought it is good to put this out so that people can look at it
16:14:31 [fsasaki]
.. then korean layout requirements doc
16:14:44 [fsasaki]
.. lot of english + format editing
16:14:51 [fsasaki]
present+ kojii
16:14:58 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate fsasaki
16:15:12 [Zakim]
16:15:23 [koji]
zakim, [ipcaller] is me
16:15:23 [Zakim]
+koji; got it
16:15:29 [r12a]
zakim, who's noisy?
16:15:43 [Zakim]
r12a, listening for 11 seconds I heard sound from the following: aphillip (74%), +1.408.536.aabb (4%)
16:15:44 [fsasaki]
aphillip: next will speak at xyz
16:15:53 [aphillip]
16:16:01 [fsasaki]
s/xyz/imug conference/
16:16:03 [r12a]
16:16:22 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate fsasaki
16:16:30 [aphillip]
zakim, agenda?
16:16:30 [Zakim]
I see 3 items remaining on the agenda:
16:16:32 [Zakim]
1. Isolating Direction in HTML5 [from aphillip]
16:16:32 [Zakim]
2. Ruby Annotation Extension Spec [from aphillip]
16:16:32 [Zakim]
3. Moving Forward Bidi Change Proposal [from aphillip]
16:16:39 [aphillip]
zakim, take up 1
16:16:39 [Zakim]
I don't understand 'take up 1', aphillip
16:16:46 [aphillip]
zakim, take up agendum 1
16:16:46 [Zakim]
agendum 1. "Isolating Direction in HTML5" taken up [from aphillip]
16:17:30 [aphillip]
zakim, take up agendum 2
16:17:30 [Zakim]
agendum 2. "Ruby Annotation Extension Spec" taken up [from aphillip]
16:18:03 [fsasaki]
richard: robin berjon working on HTML5 ruby extension spec
16:18:31 [fsasaki]
.. he was unaware of stuff we are doing, need closer communication
16:19:07 [fsasaki]
.. robin sent the draft to public i18n cjk list for review
16:19:20 [fsasaki]
.. we need to look into this in the next couple of weeks of possible
16:19:21 [aphillip]
action: addison: remind group to review berjon's ruby spec extension proposal
16:19:21 [trackbot]
Created ACTION-184 - Remind group to review berjon's ruby spec extension proposal [on Addison Phillips - due 2013-02-21].
16:19:34 [fsasaki]
.. what is proposed: availibility of an rb tag
16:19:48 [fsasaki]
.. fantasia proposes an rb.rb.rt model
16:19:55 [fsasaki]
.. that is with multiple bases
16:20:01 [aphillip]
16:20:03 [fsasaki]
.. I think that this is not necessary
16:20:33 [fsasaki]
richard: fantasai is concered that if you have an inline set in your ruby
16:20:48 [fsasaki]
.. annotations at the end of the base characters should be dropped
16:21:06 [fsasaki]
.. I think that can be done easily done by the browser re-organizing information
16:21:22 [fsasaki]
.. doing that with markup is a very long tail for waging a small dog
16:21:32 [fsasaki]
.. now double sided ruby:
16:21:48 [fsasaki]
.. fantasai is against nesting of ruby elements
16:22:08 [fsasaki]
.. she wants to go closer to what the old spec said
16:22:23 [fsasaki]
.. but the old spec uses an rtc element for the secondary level of annotation
16:23:14 [fsasaki]
.. having done nested stuff I think it's straightforward, I'm not support about the current html5 approach
16:23:44 [fsasaki]
.. fantasai's proposal is easier but has to be described like that
16:24:28 [aphillip]
zakim, agenda?
16:24:28 [Zakim]
I see 3 items remaining on the agenda:
16:24:30 [Zakim]
1. Isolating Direction in HTML5 [from aphillip]
16:24:30 [Zakim]
2. Ruby Annotation Extension Spec [from aphillip]
16:24:30 [Zakim]
3. Moving Forward Bidi Change Proposal [from aphillip]
16:24:53 [RRSAgent]
I'm logging. I don't understand 'take up next agendum', fsasaki. Try /msg RRSAgent help
16:24:53 [aphillip]
zakim, take up agendum 3
16:24:53 [Zakim]
agendum 3. "Moving Forward Bidi Change Proposal" taken up [from aphillip]
16:25:22 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate fsasaki
16:25:45 [fsasaki]
richard: in the past we wanted to get isolated spans used in inline markup
16:25:59 [fsasaki]
.. we had thought that we would write an extension spec for HTML5
16:26:15 [fsasaki]
.. with two attribute in HTML5, corresponding to new unicode control characters
16:26:28 [fsasaki]
.. however, thinking it over, I thought this might not be the best way forward
16:26:47 [fsasaki]
.. the best way might be: to create a new attribute "direction"
16:27:06 [fsasaki]
.. that attribute would have ltr, rtl, auto as values
16:27:16 [fsasaki]
.. and it would produce isolation by default
16:28:42 [fsasaki]
.. you cannot like in CSS put in two things and have the 2nd one taken up
16:28:46 [fsasaki]
.. e.g. two instances of "dir"
16:28:58 [fsasaki]
.. we already have problems confusing rtl and ltr when they type
16:29:11 [fsasaki]
.. adding lri rli has the potential to increase typos
16:29:23 [fsasaki]
.. people have to take "intelligent decisions" what to choose
16:29:36 [fsasaki]
.. most people have no clue about the importance of isolation
16:29:46 [fsasaki]
.. and continue what they have always done
16:29:56 [fsasaki]
.. there is a downside of using new values
16:30:02 [fsasaki]
aaron: another downside:
16:30:13 [aphillip]
16:30:18 [fsasaki]
.. lri and rli more or less explicitly say "this should be isloated"
16:30:29 [fsasaki]
.. that is fine for inline markup, but what about a block element?
16:30:43 [fsasaki]
.. it doesn't makes sense to write <p dir="lri">
16:30:59 [fsasaki]
.. so ltr and rtl would not get completely deprecated really
16:31:11 [fsasaki]
richard: an alternative would be the "direction" attribute
16:31:20 [fsasaki]
.. with the three values ltr, rtl, auto
16:31:36 [aphillip]
<p dir="rtl" direction="ltr"> :-(
16:31:37 [fsasaki]
.. it has the advantage to use it alongside dir
16:31:38 [fsasaki]
16:31:51 [fsasaki]
ack me
16:32:53 [fsasaki]
felix: what guidance would we give people for non-HTML scenarios?
16:33:13 [fsasaki]
richard: good question - will come back to that later?
16:33:48 [fsasaki]
richard: if we deprecate dir we can move into the direction of "direction"
16:33:59 [fsasaki]
aphillip: that would make many pages invalid
16:34:03 [fsasaki]
richard: correct
16:34:23 [fsasaki]
.. additional advantes of direction attribute: people continue to use the same values
16:34:37 [fsasaki]
.. they just need to know "direction" rather than "dir"
16:34:46 [fsasaki]
.. and it doesn't rely on CSS available
16:35:07 [fsasaki]
.. the drawback is that it is a pain to use two attributes at the same time
16:35:36 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate fsasaki
16:35:46 [fsasaki]
richard: one new topic related to this
16:35:57 [fsasaki]
.. we almost never want to do non-isloated text
16:36:31 [fsasaki]
.. in unicode report that describes lri and rli it says you can still use the old values
16:36:37 [Najib-ma]
Najib-ma has joined #i18n
16:36:47 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate aphillip
16:36:49 [fsasaki]
.. if we go away from the old values we will loose the ability to embed
16:37:00 [fsasaki]
.. which may be useful in some circumstances
16:37:14 [fsasaki]
.. we could have a new attribute that produces isolation
16:37:22 [fsasaki]
.. and we could keep dir
16:37:34 [fsasaki]
.. the new attribute could be EDI
16:37:39 [fsasaki]
.. or bd for "base direction"
16:37:43 [aphillip]
16:38:04 [fsasaki]
.. aharon already said you can use direction aspect of block elements
16:38:12 [fsasaki]
.. so we can give clearer guidance
16:39:23 [matial]
I don't see the difference between the direction attr and the bd(i) attribute
16:39:51 [aphillip]
<p dir="rtl" embed>
16:40:01 [fsasaki]
richard: some people have used directionality in a way they shouldn't
16:40:06 [aphillip]
<p dir="ltr" isoloate>
16:40:23 [fsasaki]
.. so generally we always want isolation
16:40:29 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate fsasaki
16:40:41 [fsasaki]
aharon: yes
16:41:18 [fsasaki]
.. it is not theoretical:
16:41:35 [fsasaki]
.. I know people who use dir in a way that does embedding, not isolation
16:42:07 [fsasaki]
.. changing the semantics of dir is not an option, and taking it away is not an option either
16:43:26 [fsasaki]
.. it is incorrect to say that block elements are isloated
16:43:41 [fsasaki]
16:44:58 [fsasaki]
aharon: what to do about dir name and CSS - that is not an issue
16:45:10 [fsasaki]
.. if you have <span direction="ltr">
16:45:15 [fsasaki]
.. meaning it is isolated
16:45:28 [fsasaki]
... directionality is ltr, i.e. <span dir="ltr>
16:45:41 [fsasaki]
.. that is the same, since direcitonality influecnes what you want to do inside the element
16:45:54 [fsasaki]
.. islolation talkes about what is outside the element
16:46:36 [aphillip]
<span dir="rtl" isolate>
16:46:48 [fsasaki]
.. dir is then ignored by new browser if they use direction
16:48:04 [fsasaki]
aphillip: we have an auto?
16:48:14 [fsasaki]
aharon: dir=auto is isolating
16:48:33 [fsasaki]
richard: in implementations currently it isolates but doesn't do the "auto" part
16:48:58 [aphillip]
s/we have an auto/is auto equivalent to FSI/
16:50:09 [fsasaki]
aphillip: what actions follow from this?
16:50:37 [r12a]
16:50:37 [fsasaki]
richard: need to continue discussion, basic proposal is in mail I sent
16:50:49 [fsasaki]
16:51:03 [fsasaki]
richard: need to decide whether we should choose option two
16:51:11 [fsasaki]
.. and need to think about getting things moving
16:51:29 [fsasaki]
.. and then we need to find something to author extension spec ...
16:51:51 [fsasaki]
.. before we do all that I think
16:52:29 [fsasaki]
ack me
16:52:32 [aphillip]
ack fsasaki
16:52:35 [fsasaki]
16:53:27 [fsasaki]
felix: should we look into this proposal?
16:53:51 [fsasaki]
richard: that proposal just said that there are two types of direction
16:54:02 [fsasaki]
.. there is a note about isolation, and I think the proposal is still valid
16:54:28 [fsasaki]
.. the point is then you define the attribute values
16:54:58 [fsasaki]
aphillip: we were pointing to HTML4
16:55:12 [fsasaki]
richard: rlo and lro also don't exist in HTML5, but as concepts they do
16:55:18 [fsasaki]
richard: like to hear opinions
16:55:26 [matial]
zakim, unmute me
16:55:26 [Zakim]
matial should no longer be muted
16:56:08 [fsasaki]
aphillip: need to look into more material before making decisions
16:56:31 [fsasaki]
matial: we cannot change dir behavior because we don't want to break existing pages
16:56:45 [fsasaki]
.. we cannot unify one attribute because often documents are composed from various pieces
16:57:31 [fsasaki]
.. telling to use two different attributes for direction, one for blocks and one for inline, will be hard to educate people
16:58:28 [fsasaki]
matial: xxx is the best thing (scribe missed)
16:58:34 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate fsasaki
16:59:02 [aphillip]
16:59:02 [fsasaki]
matial: "bdir"
16:59:21 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate fsasaki
16:59:50 [aphillip]
richard: enjoin folks to read email and send comments
17:00:00 [aphillip]
scribenick: aphillip
17:00:09 [matial]
zakim, mute me
17:00:09 [Zakim]
matial should now be muted
17:00:21 [joconner]
joconner has left #i18n
17:00:26 [aphillip]
richard: publish blog post?
17:00:34 [aphillip]
... could publish on i18n home page
17:00:49 [Zakim]
17:00:49 [Najib-ma]
17:00:59 [joconner]
joconner has joined #i18n
17:00:59 [aphillip]
ack najib-ma
17:01:05 [Najib-ma]
I favors option 2.
17:01:14 [Najib-ma]
Thinks it is reasonable.
17:01:20 [Najib-ma]
But I fear people think of "direction" attribute as a new name of "dir" attribute.
17:01:22 [Najib-ma]
and then will be surprised by the effect of isolate, if any.
17:01:27 [Najib-ma]
That's all
17:01:40 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate aphillip
17:02:17 [aphillip]
action: richard: publish blog post as wiki, put on front door, and announce to winter list
17:02:17 [trackbot]
Created ACTION-185 - Publish blog post as wiki, put on front door, and announce to winter list [on Richard Ishida - due 2013-02-21].
17:02:32 [aphillip]
richard: one more question for aharon
17:02:44 [aphillip]
... people have used dir embedding wrongly
17:02:54 [aphillip]
... but are there other cases where you want to embed rather than isolate on purpose?
17:03:08 [joconner]
joconner has left #i18n
17:03:09 [aphillip]
aharon: no, because then you get with LRM,etc.
17:03:41 [aphillip]
richard: if you put dir on span in same direction, no action?
17:03:48 [Zakim]
- +1.408.536.aabb
17:03:51 [aphillip]
aharon: other way around
17:04:07 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate aphillip
17:05:53 [aphillip]
john: classic problem with domain names
17:06:25 [aphillip]
Topic: AOB?
17:06:55 [aphillip]
Regrets+ ning
17:07:59 [aphillip]
aharon: in LTR context, span with LTR starting with RTL character
17:08:41 [Zakim]
17:08:42 [matial]
17:08:43 [Zakim]
17:08:45 [Zakim]
17:08:52 [Zakim]
17:08:55 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate aphillip
17:09:08 [Zakim]
17:09:58 [aphillip]
zakim, bye
17:09:58 [Zakim]
leaving. As of this point the attendees were aphillip, Richard, fsasaki, matial, +1.617.245.aaaa, john, +1.408.536.aabb, koji
17:09:58 [Zakim]
Zakim has left #i18n
17:10:01 [aphillip]
rrsagent, bye
17:10:01 [RRSAgent]
I see 2 open action items saved in :
17:10:01 [RRSAgent]
ACTION: addison: remind group to review berjon's ruby spec extension proposal [1]
17:10:01 [RRSAgent]
recorded in
17:10:01 [RRSAgent]
ACTION: richard: publish blog post as wiki, put on front door, and announce to winter list [2]
17:10:01 [RRSAgent]
recorded in