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15:41:26 <trackbot> RRSAgent, make logs public
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15:41:28 <trackbot> Zakim, this will be IA_XForms
15:41:28 <Zakim> ok, trackbot; I see IA_XForms()11:00AM scheduled to start in 19 minutes
15:41:29 <trackbot> Meeting: Forms Working Group Teleconference
15:41:29 <trackbot> Date: 13 February 2013
15:41:56 <Steven> Agenda: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-forms/2013Feb/0023
15:42:03 <Steven> Steven has changed the topic to: Agenda: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-forms/2013Feb/0023
15:42:11 <Steven> CHair: Steven
15:42:16 <Steven> s/CH/Ch/
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16:01:50 <nvdbleek> zakim, code?
16:01:50 <Zakim> the conference code is 93676 (tel:+1.617.761.6200 sip:zakim@voip.w3.org), nvdbleek
16:02:26 <Zakim> IA_XForms()11:00AM has now started
16:03:02 <Steven> zakim, who is here?
16:03:02 <Zakim> On the phone I see no one
16:03:03 <Zakim> On IRC I see nvdbleek, ebruchez, Zakim, RRSAgent, Steven, trackbot
16:03:22 <Steven> Present+Steven
16:03:40 <Steven> present+Nick
16:05:03 <Steven> Present+Erik
16:11:59 <Steven> Topic: Next week
16:11:59 <Steven> Steven won't be here; we need a chair.
16:12:25 <Steven> Nick: I can do it.
16:13:38 <Steven> Topic: ACTION-1931: Propose text for @accept on upload
16:13:38 <Steven> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-forms/2013Feb/0019.html
16:14:41 <Steven> Nick: I'd rather that new text not be added directly to the live spec, but to separate articles before we add them
16:15:17 <Steven> ... I don't think we had consensus yet, so it shouldn't be in the spec.
16:15:35 <Steven> Erik: I think we can roll back the spec.
16:16:01 <Steven> Nick: And if we accept this, we also need to update the schema
16:16:32 <Steven> Steven: We don't have enough people here to make a decision about this
16:16:56 <Steven> ... we ought to take it out until we have approved it.
16:17:19 <Steven> Erik: We should maybe do it on the mailing list.
16:17:44 <Steven> Nick: I think the new name is better, but the old name has been there right from the beginning.
16:17:59 <Steven> Erik: But it is an inconsistency that we have the same name for two things.
16:18:08 <Steven> ... so there is an improvement.
16:18:28 <Steven> ... do we already have an @accept?
16:18:30 <Steven> Nick: No
16:18:57 <Steven> Erik: I like more consistency, so am inclined to be in favour; and it is not a deep change.
16:19:16 <unl> unl has joined #forms
16:19:22 <Steven> Nick: You are willing to update your implementation?
16:19:30 <Steven> Erik: Sure
16:20:43 <Steven> Present+Uli
16:23:59 <Steven> Erik: What are the implications for the implementers?
16:25:19 <Steven> Nick: We definitely need to test it, and we need two implementations.
16:25:48 <ebruchez> "list of MIME types for file upload"
16:25:54 <Steven> Erik: HTML4 has @accept on forms, but that is different, but it has it on the input element
16:26:07 <Zakim> Zakim-bot will be restarted in 3 minutes to recover caller state; please save your agenda status.  Apologies for the inconvenience
16:26:12 <ebruchez> http://www.w3.org/TR/REC-html40/interact/forms.html#h-17.4
16:26:20 <ebruchez> http://www.whatwg.org/specs/web-apps/current-work/multipage/states-of-the-type-attribute.html#file-upload-state-(type=file)
16:26:40 <ebruchez> image/*
16:26:48 <Steven> http://www.w3.org/TR/REC-html40/interact/forms.html#adef-accept
16:27:52 <ebruchez> http://www.w3schools.com/tags/att_input_accept.asp
16:28:32 <Steven> Erik: Not every browser supports it.
16:28:45 <Steven> ... but presumably in the future there will be more.
16:28:53 <Steven> ... SO this is my vote for doing this.
16:28:58 <Steven> s/SO/So/
16:30:15 <Steven> Uli: Shall I revert the spec?
16:30:31 <Steven> Nick: No, let's leave it in, and see if Alain will support it.
16:30:48 <Steven> Topic: ACTION-1922 - Add exmples of the use of variables to the XForms 2.0
16:30:48 <Steven> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-forms/2013Feb/0017.html
16:30:58 <Steven> s/exm/exam/
16:32:25 <Steven> Steven: Any outstanding questions?
16:32:34 <Steven> Erik: No. Everything is taken care of.
16:33:03 <Steven> Nick: Shouldn't the inline example be on one line?
16:33:13 <Steven> Erik: I did that already.
16:33:44 <Steven> zakim, who is noisy?
16:33:55 <Zakim> Steven, listening for 10 seconds I heard sound from the following: ??P2 (27%), ??P12 (9%)
16:34:05 <Steven> zakim, who is on the phone?
16:34:05 <Zakim> On the phone I see no one
16:34:51 <Steven> Uli: Can you use variables in binding expressions?
16:34:56 <Steven> Erik: Yes. WHy not?
16:35:00 <Steven> s/WH/Wh/
16:35:11 <Steven> Erik: Variables are updated during refresh
16:35:25 <Steven> ... order is guaranteed.
16:35:38 <Steven> ... Do you see a problem?
16:35:49 <Steven> Uli: You could interpret it in two different ways.
16:36:36 <Steven> Erik: A var holds the value of the expression.
16:36:56 <Steven> [echo makes it hard to hear]
16:37:12 <Steven> ... no converesion
16:37:13 <nvdbleek> The value of a variable is any sequence of nodes and/or atomic values, as defined in XPath Data Model [http://www.w3.org/MarkUp/Forms/wiki/XForms_2.0#ref-xpath-data-model].
16:37:23 <Steven> s/converesion/conversion/
16:38:22 <Steven> Erik: There's nothing transformative about the var element
16:38:25 <Steven> Uli: OK
16:39:11 <Steven> Topic: Target attribute on submission and load element
16:39:11 <Steven> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-forms/2013Feb/0009.html
16:40:19 <Steven> Erik: This started with an email by MSM who had a use case for this. target="new", and we hadn't decided to use "new", but follow HTML for what was allowed.
16:40:36 <Steven> ... the HTML spec has a table with the acceptable values
16:40:44 <Steven> ... so we don;t need to reinvent it
16:40:56 <Steven> ... question is whether it should go on the loda action
16:41:16 <Steven> ... load is a small version of a submission. It cannot control @show
16:41:18 <Steven> s/;/'/
16:41:38 <Steven> ... so I am leaning to support it in both places.
16:41:48 <Steven> s/loda/load/
16:42:05 <Steven> ... HTML syntax is horrible, but that is for historical reasons
16:42:15 <Steven> Nick: SHy do we need @show then?
16:42:24 <Steven> s/SH/Wh/
16:42:42 <Steven> Erik: It is duplicate, so we don't need it.
16:43:34 <Steven> Steven: @show comes from xlink, and I guess at XForms 1.0 we were trying to adopt their syntax.
16:44:00 <Steven> Erik: Using HTML syntax makes out syntax more understandable for people coming to XForms for the first time
16:44:34 <Steven> Nick: There are some values in HTML that don't apply to XForms, like _parent and _top
16:45:08 <Steven> Erik: Why do you say _parent doesn't apply?
16:45:37 <Steven> ... it may or may not apply, even in HTML
16:45:59 <Steven> Nick: You are proposing to use the same keywords as HTML?
16:46:50 <Steven> Erik: I would want to do as little work as possible. So XForms should refer to the host language.
16:47:05 <Steven> ... whatever makes sense for the host language
16:47:28 <Steven> ... even show="new" may not make sense for some host langauges
16:47:59 <Steven> Steven: Want to try doing some spec text?
16:48:02 <Steven> Erik: OK
16:48:22 <Steven> ACTION: Erik to suggest text spec for target keywords referring to host language.
16:48:22 <trackbot> Created ACTION-1932 - Suggest text spec for target keywords referring to host language. [on Erik Bruchez - due 2013-02-20].
16:49:38 <Steven> Topic: MIP functions
16:49:38 <Steven> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-forms/2013Jan/0025.html
16:50:06 <Steven> Uli: Erik already responded that he agrees, and it should be an action item for him.
16:50:31 <Steven> Nick: Are they available at the same time during recalculation?
16:50:39 <Steven> Erik: I think valid() is the hard one
16:50:47 <Steven> ... we have to be careful
16:51:01 <Steven> ... but the current spec text is rather conservative
16:51:28 <Steven> ... but the other functions could be used in more places. I will have to see
16:51:47 <Steven> ACTION: Erik to suggest spec text for MIP functions
16:51:48 <trackbot> Created ACTION-1933 - Suggest spec text for MIP functions [on Erik Bruchez - due 2013-02-20].
16:52:05 <Steven> Topic: The function Element
16:52:05 <Steven> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-forms/2013Jan/0028.html
16:53:00 <Steven> Nick: I think it is a useful feature.
16:53:10 <Steven> ... maybe it could be made simpler
16:53:25 <Steven> Erik: XForms is tightly integrated with XPath
16:53:35 <windauer> windauer has joined #forms
16:54:01 <Steven> ... ... a big missing feature is functions. See XQuery and XSLY for instance.
16:54:07 <Steven> s/LY/LT/
16:54:12 <Steven> ... which is painful
16:54:16 <Steven> ... we need funtions
16:54:21 <Steven> s/fun/func/
16:55:20 <Steven> ... there is a real use case
16:55:26 <Steven> Nick: We support the feature as well.
16:55:44 <Steven> ... Abstracting business logic; makes code easier and more understandable
16:56:10 <Steven> Erik: Every programming language has functions.
16:56:31 <Steven> Uli: I see the use case, but aren't we reinventing the wheel?
16:56:57 <Steven> Nick: It is based on how others did it, and making it as similar as possible.
16:57:15 <Steven> Uli: Aren't we losing our declarative approach?
16:57:30 <Steven> Nick: I don't see that.
16:57:58 <Steven> Erik: Functions are in XPath, but not exposed there. It is exposed in XQuery and XSLT.
16:58:20 <Steven> ... we decided to reuse XSLT function element
16:58:32 <Steven> ... we talked with Michael Kaye about it
16:58:53 <Steven> ... he suggested not copying XSLT exactly
16:59:27 <Steven> ... and since we don't implement XSLT in XFOrms, there is much we don;t need.
16:59:36 <Steven> s/XFO/XFo/
16:59:56 <Steven> Erik: So that's how the current syntax emerged. And it is rather simple.
17:00:39 <Steven> Uli: I see that. I'm not convinced it should be in core, because it is a work around XPath deficiencies
17:01:05 <Steven> Nick: Well, functions could be written in javascript as well
17:02:06 <Steven> STeven: THere is a need for an abstraction to encapsulate a bit of code with a name, so that you don't need to repeat it everywhere.
17:02:12 <Steven> s/ST/St/
17:02:17 <Steven> s/TH/Th/
17:02:37 <Steven> Nick: I think it should be in the expressions spec, not the XForms spec
17:02:42 <Steven> s/Nick/Uli/
17:04:00 <Steven> Erik: I have no problem with the function element in core
17:04:25 <Steven> Steven: We have no consensus to remove this feature
17:04:29 <Steven> Uli: I understand.
17:04:31 <Zakim> IA_XForms()11:00AM has ended
17:04:33 <Zakim> Attendees were
17:04:41 <Steven> rrsagent, make minutes
17:04:41 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2013/02/13-forms-minutes.html Steven
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