IRC log of er on 2013-02-13

Timestamps are in UTC.

13:33:25 [RRSAgent]
RRSAgent has joined #er
13:33:25 [RRSAgent]
logging to http://www.w3.org/2013/02/13-er-irc
13:33:27 [trackbot]
RRSAgent, make logs public
13:33:27 [Zakim]
Zakim has joined #er
13:33:29 [trackbot]
Zakim, this will be 3794
13:33:29 [Zakim]
ok, trackbot; I see WAI_ERTWG()8:30AM scheduled to start 3 minutes ago
13:33:30 [trackbot]
Meeting: Evaluation and Repair Tools Working Group Teleconference
13:33:30 [trackbot]
Date: 13 February 2013
13:34:34 [shadi]
zakim, this is er
13:34:34 [Zakim]
ok, shadi; that matches WAI_ERTWG()8:30AM
13:34:51 [shadi]
zakim, who is on the phone?
13:34:51 [Zakim]
On the phone I see Yehya.a, Yehya, Shadi
13:35:19 [shadi]
zakim, yehya.a is PhilipA
13:35:19 [Zakim]
+PhilipA; got it
13:35:25 [shadi]
zakim, yehya is carlos
13:35:25 [Zakim]
+carlos; got it
13:38:17 [shadi]
http://www.w3.org/WAI/ER/WD-AERT/ED-requirements20130211.html
13:38:30 [samuelm]
samuelm has joined #er
13:39:00 [shadi]
http://www.w3.org/2013/02/06-er-minutes.html
13:39:31 [kostas]
kostas has joined #er
13:39:43 [Zakim]
+ +30231125aaaa
13:39:57 [shadi]
zakim, aaaa is kostas
13:39:57 [Zakim]
+kostas; got it
13:40:20 [shadi]
regrets: Emmanuelle, Christophe
13:41:18 [Zakim]
+??P13
13:41:21 [shadi]
agenda: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-wai-ert/2013Feb/0008.html
13:41:39 [shadi]
samuel?
13:42:03 [shadi]
zakim, ??p13 is samuelm
13:42:03 [Zakim]
+samuelm; got it
13:42:24 [Zakim]
-samuelm
13:42:52 [shadi]
Topic: Requirements for AERT
13:43:01 [shadi]
http://www.w3.org/WAI/ER/WD-AERT/ED-requirements20130211.html
13:43:01 [Zakim]
+??P13
13:43:10 [samuelm]
zakim, ??p13 is me
13:43:10 [Zakim]
+samuelm; got it
13:45:58 [shadi]
zakim, mute me
13:45:58 [Zakim]
Shadi should now be muted
13:46:22 [shadi]
scribe: shadi
13:46:35 [shadi]
KV: some requirements from the accessible project
13:46:55 [shadi]
...we defined some requirements for evaluation tools
13:47:07 [shadi]
CV: is there documentation?
13:47:11 [shadi]
KV: yes, lts
13:47:22 [shadi]
CV: please provide them
13:47:25 [shadi]
ack me
13:49:08 [shadi]
SAZ: these requirements are for the document to be developed, rather than the end results
13:49:28 [shadi]
KV: we developed requirements that may be useful herer
13:50:39 [shadi]
SAZ: the overall goal of this work is to provide guidance for evaluation tool developers on how they can support WCAG 2
13:51:00 [shadi]
...the question for now is how this guidance will look like
13:51:13 [shadi]
KV: i suppose it will include examples and use cases?
13:51:23 [shadi]
SAZ: that's for us to decide
13:55:09 [shadi]
SAZ: not sure should be "complement" to WCAG-EM
13:55:17 [shadi]
...maybe just support it
13:55:53 [shadi]
...will we define the workflow for tools
13:56:19 [shadi]
CV: nightmare for tool developers when they don't understand where in the workflow their tools fit in
13:57:04 [shadi]
...can explain typical scenarios of workflows to show where tool support comes in
13:57:22 [shadi]
SM: could be useful if we can support different types of workflows
13:57:33 [shadi]
...can not prescribe a single one
13:57:37 [samuelm]
http://www.w3.org/WAI/intro/components.php#relate
13:58:03 [shadi]
...no guidelines for evaluation tools
13:58:25 [shadi]
...not trying to develop guidelines but to fill a gap that ATAG does not provide
13:59:09 [shadi]
...not a set of requirements but a set of features that these tools could have
13:59:22 [shadi]
...framework of potential functionality
13:59:36 [shadi]
...from which developers can select which they want to implement
13:59:57 [shadi]
...not fully fledged guidelines prescribing what tools must do
14:00:02 [shadi]
...but giving guidance on what can be done
14:00:52 [shadi]
SM: are we planning a Recommendation or a Note?
14:00:52 [shadi]
SAZ: Note is the current plan
14:01:10 [shadi]
KV: can you give an example of what a workflow is?
14:01:29 [shadi]
...is it like the steps defined in WCAG-EM?
14:01:57 [shadi]
CV: did not mean to describe the different workflows
14:02:09 [shadi]
...but how evaluation tools fit into these workflows
14:02:33 [shadi]
...there are different audiences of evaluation tools
14:02:40 [shadi]
...with different roles and responsibilities
14:02:55 [shadi]
...the thought was to describe some of these
14:03:30 [shadi]
KV: wondering what we can provide as a technical Note that would benefit tool developers
14:03:57 [shadi]
...we talk about WCAG 2, workflows, and such
14:04:03 [shadi]
...but not clear what exactly we will provide
14:04:27 [shadi]
...probably need to analyze state of the art of what tools provide
14:04:52 [shadi]
...are we going to support WCAG 2? WAI-ARIA?
14:04:53 [shadi]
...still unclear what this document will provide
14:05:03 [shadi]
...also the scenarios are not very clear
14:05:20 [shadi]
...especially the second does not say what we will provide
14:05:55 [shadi]
...are we going to explain how tools implement WCAG 2 techniques?
14:06:05 [shadi]
CV: don't think we are aiming to provide an interpretation of WCAG 2
14:06:33 [shadi]
KV: but you have in the table of contents how to implement WCAG 2 and its techniques
14:07:57 [shadi]
http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-wai-ert/2013Feb/0003.html
14:10:10 [shadi]
SAZ: like the idea of listing tool features
14:10:17 [shadi]
...suggested something similar
14:10:40 [shadi]
...could have introduction describing overall workflow
14:11:57 [shadi]
CV: could be a very long list
14:12:03 [shadi]
SAZ: will need to do a cut off
14:14:26 [shadi]
...could try to be technology-agnostic
14:14:56 [shadi]
...like saying "a tool could automatically detect images without text alternative"
14:15:13 [shadi]
CV: might not be a very practical document
14:15:23 [shadi]
...will be very theortical
14:15:58 [shadi]
...need to talk about the checks if we want to address the developers of evaluation tools
14:16:33 [shadi]
SM: going into the techniques level is too much detail
14:16:56 [shadi]
...on the other hand staying at the SC level may be too high
14:17:14 [shadi]
...suggest staying technology-agnostic
14:17:39 [shadi]
...could describe the functionality without going into the specific implementation details
14:17:57 [shadi]
...also not to relate specifically to HTML vs WAI-ARIA
14:18:15 [shadi]
...to stay away from the implementation details
14:18:27 [shadi]
...provide techniques that are not technology specific
14:19:15 [shadi]
...not a 1:1 correspondence between our guidance and the techniques
14:19:37 [shadi]
...also suggest to group these guidances into profiles for tools
14:19:53 [shadi]
...for example focused tools
14:19:57 [shadi]
...or tools that are specific to WAI-ARIA
14:22:28 [shadi]
SAZ: we are talking about techniques but not in WCAG2 terminolofy
14:22:41 [shadi]
...more about functional description
14:22:52 [shadi]
...features that tools could provide
14:23:16 [shadi]
...also the profiles idea may address the concern about where tools fit into the evaluation process
14:23:30 [shadi]
CV: like the idea of profiles too
14:23:57 [shadi]
...want to focus the audience as soon as possible
14:24:05 [shadi]
...don't want to go back and forth on audience
14:26:32 [shadi]
SM: think primary audience could be software analysts?
14:26:52 [shadi]
...not really management level but also not developer level
14:28:52 [shadi]
Topic: Review of WCAG-EM
14:28:58 [shadi]
http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-wai-ert/2013Feb/0005
14:31:12 [shadi]
SAZ: please review the draft and provide comments
14:31:29 [shadi]
...please indicate issues that must be fixed before publication
14:31:58 [shadi]
...versus comments for future improvement
14:32:07 [shadi]
SAZ: thanks Samuel for your comments
14:32:27 [Zakim]
-kostas
14:32:28 [Zakim]
-PhilipA
14:32:28 [Zakim]
-samuelm
14:32:30 [Zakim]
-Shadi
14:32:33 [PhilipA]
PhilipA has left #er
14:32:39 [Zakim]
-carlos
14:32:41 [Zakim]
WAI_ERTWG()8:30AM has ended
14:32:41 [Zakim]
Attendees were Shadi, PhilipA, carlos, +30231125aaaa, kostas, samuelm
14:33:20 [shadi]
...would like to take your suggestion of adding a note to section 5.c and asking for public feedback on it
14:34:06 [shadi]
...think this would be useful, especially since we want the next draft to be tested in practice
14:34:16 [shadi]
SM: yes, that is OK with me
14:34:23 [shadi]
trackbot, end meeting
14:34:23 [trackbot]
Zakim, list attendees
14:34:23 [Zakim]
sorry, trackbot, I don't know what conference this is
14:34:31 [trackbot]
RRSAgent, please draft minutes
14:34:31 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2013/02/13-er-minutes.html trackbot
14:34:32 [trackbot]
RRSAgent, bye
14:34:32 [RRSAgent]
I see no action items