13:33:25 <RRSAgent> RRSAgent has joined #er
13:33:25 <RRSAgent> logging to http://www.w3.org/2013/02/13-er-irc
13:33:27 <trackbot> RRSAgent, make logs public
13:33:27 <Zakim> Zakim has joined #er
13:33:29 <trackbot> Zakim, this will be 3794
13:33:29 <Zakim> ok, trackbot; I see WAI_ERTWG()8:30AM scheduled to start 3 minutes ago
13:33:30 <trackbot> Meeting: Evaluation and Repair Tools Working Group Teleconference
13:33:30 <trackbot> Date: 13 February 2013
13:34:34 <shadi> zakim, this is er
13:34:34 <Zakim> ok, shadi; that matches WAI_ERTWG()8:30AM
13:34:51 <shadi> zakim, who is on the phone?
13:34:51 <Zakim> On the phone I see Yehya.a, Yehya, Shadi
13:35:19 <shadi> zakim, yehya.a is PhilipA
13:35:19 <Zakim> +PhilipA; got it
13:35:25 <shadi> zakim, yehya is carlos
13:35:25 <Zakim> +carlos; got it
13:38:17 <shadi> http://www.w3.org/WAI/ER/WD-AERT/ED-requirements20130211.html
13:38:30 <samuelm> samuelm has joined #er
13:39:00 <shadi> http://www.w3.org/2013/02/06-er-minutes.html
13:39:31 <kostas> kostas has joined #er
13:39:43 <Zakim> + +30231125aaaa
13:39:57 <shadi> zakim, aaaa is kostas
13:39:57 <Zakim> +kostas; got it
13:40:20 <shadi> regrets: Emmanuelle, Christophe
13:41:18 <Zakim> +??P13
13:41:21 <shadi> agenda: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-wai-ert/2013Feb/0008.html
13:41:39 <shadi> samuel?
13:42:03 <shadi> zakim, ??p13 is samuelm
13:42:03 <Zakim> +samuelm; got it
13:42:24 <Zakim> -samuelm
13:42:52 <shadi> Topic: Requirements for AERT
13:43:01 <shadi> http://www.w3.org/WAI/ER/WD-AERT/ED-requirements20130211.html
13:43:01 <Zakim> +??P13
13:43:10 <samuelm> zakim, ??p13 is me
13:43:10 <Zakim> +samuelm; got it
13:45:58 <shadi> zakim, mute me
13:45:58 <Zakim> Shadi should now be muted
13:46:22 <shadi> scribe: shadi
13:46:35 <shadi> KV: some requirements from the accessible project
13:46:55 <shadi> ...we defined some requirements for evaluation tools
13:47:07 <shadi> CV: is there documentation?
13:47:11 <shadi> KV: yes, lts
13:47:22 <shadi> CV: please provide them
13:47:25 <shadi> ack me
13:49:08 <shadi> SAZ: these requirements are for the document to be developed, rather than the end results
13:49:28 <shadi> KV: we developed requirements that may be useful herer
13:50:39 <shadi> SAZ: the overall goal of this work is to provide guidance for evaluation tool developers on how they can support WCAG 2
13:51:00 <shadi> ...the question for now is how this guidance will look like
13:51:13 <shadi> KV: i suppose it will include examples and use cases?
13:51:23 <shadi> SAZ: that's for us to decide
13:55:09 <shadi> SAZ: not sure should be "complement" to WCAG-EM
13:55:17 <shadi> ...maybe just support it
13:55:53 <shadi> ...will we define the workflow for tools
13:56:19 <shadi> CV: nightmare for tool developers when they don't understand where in the workflow their tools fit in
13:57:04 <shadi> ...can explain typical scenarios of workflows to show where tool support comes in
13:57:22 <shadi> SM: could be useful if we can support different types of workflows
13:57:33 <shadi> ...can not prescribe a single one
13:57:37 <samuelm> http://www.w3.org/WAI/intro/components.php#relate
13:58:03 <shadi> ...no guidelines for evaluation tools
13:58:25 <shadi> ...not trying to develop guidelines but to fill a gap that ATAG does not provide
13:59:09 <shadi> ...not a set of requirements but a set of features that these tools could have
13:59:22 <shadi> ...framework of potential functionality
13:59:36 <shadi> ...from which developers can select which they want to implement
13:59:57 <shadi> ...not fully fledged guidelines prescribing what tools must do
14:00:02 <shadi> ...but giving guidance on what can be done
14:00:52 <shadi> SM: are we planning a Recommendation or a Note?
14:00:52 <shadi> SAZ: Note is the current plan
14:01:10 <shadi> KV: can you give an example of what a workflow is?
14:01:29 <shadi> ...is it like the steps defined in WCAG-EM?
14:01:57 <shadi> CV: did not mean to describe the different workflows
14:02:09 <shadi> ...but how evaluation tools fit into these workflows
14:02:33 <shadi> ...there are different audiences of evaluation tools
14:02:40 <shadi> ...with different roles and responsibilities
14:02:55 <shadi> ...the thought was to describe some of these
14:03:30 <shadi> KV: wondering what we can provide as a technical Note that would benefit tool developers
14:03:57 <shadi> ...we talk about WCAG 2, workflows, and such
14:04:03 <shadi> ...but not clear what exactly we will provide
14:04:27 <shadi> ...probably need to analyze state of the art of what tools provide
14:04:52 <shadi> ...are we going to support WCAG 2? WAI-ARIA?
14:04:53 <shadi> ...still unclear what this document will provide
14:05:03 <shadi> ...also the scenarios are not very clear
14:05:20 <shadi> ...especially the second does not say what we will provide
14:05:55 <shadi> ...are we going to explain how tools implement WCAG 2 techniques?
14:06:05 <shadi> CV: don't think we are aiming to provide an interpretation of WCAG 2
14:06:33 <shadi> KV: but you have in the table of contents how to implement WCAG 2 and its techniques
14:07:57 <shadi> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-wai-ert/2013Feb/0003.html
14:10:10 <shadi> SAZ: like the idea of listing tool features
14:10:17 <shadi> ...suggested something similar
14:10:40 <shadi> ...could have introduction describing overall workflow
14:11:57 <shadi> CV: could be a very long list
14:12:03 <shadi> SAZ: will need to do a cut off
14:14:26 <shadi> ...could try to be technology-agnostic
14:14:56 <shadi> ...like saying "a tool could automatically detect images without text alternative"
14:15:13 <shadi> CV: might not be a very practical document
14:15:23 <shadi> ...will be very theortical
14:15:58 <shadi> ...need to talk about the checks if we want to address the developers of evaluation tools
14:16:33 <shadi> SM: going into the techniques level is too much detail
14:16:56 <shadi> ...on the other hand staying at the SC level may be too high
14:17:14 <shadi> ...suggest staying technology-agnostic
14:17:39 <shadi> ...could describe the functionality without going into the specific implementation details
14:17:57 <shadi> ...also not to relate specifically to HTML vs WAI-ARIA
14:18:15 <shadi> ...to stay away from the implementation details
14:18:27 <shadi> ...provide techniques that are not technology specific
14:19:15 <shadi> ...not a 1:1 correspondence between our guidance and the techniques
14:19:37 <shadi> ...also suggest to group these guidances into profiles for tools
14:19:53 <shadi> ...for example focused tools
14:19:57 <shadi> ...or tools that are specific to WAI-ARIA
14:22:28 <shadi> SAZ: we are talking about techniques but not in WCAG2 terminolofy
14:22:41 <shadi> ...more about functional description
14:22:52 <shadi> ...features that tools could provide
14:23:16 <shadi> ...also the profiles idea may address the concern about where tools fit into the evaluation process
14:23:30 <shadi> CV: like the idea of profiles too
14:23:57 <shadi> ...want to focus the audience as soon as possible
14:24:05 <shadi> ...don't want to go back and forth on audience
14:26:32 <shadi> SM: think primary audience could be software analysts?
14:26:52 <shadi> ...not really management level but also not developer level
14:28:52 <shadi> Topic: Review of WCAG-EM
14:28:58 <shadi> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-wai-ert/2013Feb/0005
14:31:12 <shadi> SAZ: please review the draft and provide comments
14:31:29 <shadi> ...please indicate issues that must be fixed before publication
14:31:58 <shadi> ...versus comments for future improvement
14:32:07 <shadi> SAZ: thanks Samuel for your comments
14:32:27 <Zakim> -kostas
14:32:28 <Zakim> -PhilipA
14:32:28 <Zakim> -samuelm
14:32:30 <Zakim> -Shadi
14:32:33 <PhilipA> PhilipA has left #er
14:32:39 <Zakim> -carlos
14:32:41 <Zakim> WAI_ERTWG()8:30AM has ended
14:32:41 <Zakim> Attendees were Shadi, PhilipA, carlos, +30231125aaaa, kostas, samuelm
14:33:20 <shadi> ...would like to take your suggestion of adding a note to section 5.c and asking for public feedback on it
14:34:06 <shadi> ...think this would be useful, especially since we want the next draft to be tested in practice
14:34:16 <shadi> SM: yes, that is OK with me
14:34:23 <shadi> trackbot, end meeting
14:34:23 <trackbot> Zakim, list attendees
14:34:23 <Zakim> sorry, trackbot, I don't know what conference this is
14:34:31 <trackbot> RRSAgent, please draft minutes
14:34:31 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2013/02/13-er-minutes.html trackbot
14:34:32 <trackbot> RRSAgent, bye
14:34:32 <RRSAgent> I see no action items