IRC log of ebooks on 2013-02-11

Timestamps are in UTC.

18:35:29 [RRSAgent]
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18:35:29 [RRSAgent]
logging to
18:35:39 [glazou]
who's scribing
18:35:42 [karl]
RRSAgent, make logs public
18:35:57 [glazou]
ScribeNick: glazou
18:36:14 [glazou]
thierry: (introducing workshop committee)
18:36:28 [glazou]
… thanks to Marcus and Angela for all hard work and organization
18:36:30 [JJ]
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18:36:40 [glazou]
… we have also 19 experts in program committee
18:36:49 [glazou]
… thanks for their hard work reviewing all papers
18:36:53 [karl]
Meeting: W3C ebook Workshop in NYC
18:36:57 [glazou]
… finally thanks W3C colleagues
18:37:20 [glazou]
… for experience, advice ; Karen for all logistics aspects and Maria at the registration/admin
18:37:27 [glazou]
… a few words about submissions
18:37:38 [glazou]
… we got 43 submission papers that covered many topics
18:37:45 [glazou]
… presentation, metadata, DRM, etc
18:37:48 [glazou]
… we reviewed all
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18:37:54 [glazou]
… and we built agenda from there
18:38:04 [glazou]
… unable to accomodate everyone because too many papers submitted
18:38:23 [glazou]
… great interest in all the papers but need to have a subset to fit the 1.5 day schedule
18:38:34 [plh-ebook]
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18:38:36 [glazou]
… we have 90 attendees representing all sectors of ebook industry
18:38:55 [glazou]
… readers, publishers, SW, distributors, libraries, search engines, A11Y, etc.
18:38:56 [JJ]
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18:39:10 [glazou]
… participation is also a success because all ey players are here
18:39:19 [glazou]
… (shows companies attending on screen)
18:39:25 [Jaejeung]
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18:39:34 [glazou]
… particpation is also international, 13 countries, 4 continents
18:39:49 [glazou]
… will allow to address int'l issues related to ebooks
18:39:53 [glazou]
… About highlights
18:40:10 [glazou]
… the event is divided in 5 sessions, 1 session per topic domain
18:40:19 [glazou]
… (lists all sessions, see agenda)
18:40:23 [TomDN]
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18:40:30 [glazou]
… Also a couple of keynotes
18:40:32 [gluejar]
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18:40:50 [glazou]
… we want this wkshp interactive so please participate
18:41:00 [glazou]
… we have then scheduled a lot of slots for discussions and feedback
18:41:08 [glazou]
… and also a wrap-up session
18:41:08 [gluejar]
using #w3cebook on twitter
18:41:24 [glazou]
… "lead the ebook publishing to its full potential"'
18:41:31 [glazou]
… share info and expertise
18:41:46 [glazou]
… unlikely we'll solve all tech issues but at least we can discuss them
18:41:53 [glazou]
… create new work items specific to ebooks
18:42:17 [glazou]
… where and when to adress the tasks we will discuss: standard bodies or new WGs or or or
18:42:39 [TAC_NISO]
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18:42:41 [glazou]
… Karen gave you wifi thingies, use IRC, the slides will be available on W3C site
18:42:53 [glazou]
… there will be bkfst tomorrow, break today is 4-4:30
18:43:00 [glazou]
… lunch not provided tomorrow by W3C
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18:43:17 [glazou]
… all invited tomorrow evening to O'Reilly reception
18:43:35 [glazou]
… thanks to all sponsors of the event: Pearson, Adobe, Google, Microsoft and O'Reilly
18:43:56 [glazou]
… (my slides linked from agenda), thank you
18:44:06 [karl]
Topic: Keynote - Extending W3C current work, collaboration with IDPF
18:44:08 [glazou]
Karen: introducing Jeff Jaffe, W3C CEO
18:44:24 [glazou]
… we have conti'd to grow under Jeff's leadership
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s/Topic: Keynote - Extending W3C current work, collaboration with IDPF /Thierry's slides
18:44:54 [glazou]
jeff: Thanks Karen and Thierry
18:45:03 [glazou]
… let me be the 2nd to thank everyone
18:45:16 [glazou]
… in particular the host, collaborators and and and
18:45:25 [glazou]
… was asked to do 3 things
18:45:37 [glazou]
… since we're diverse community, first I'll provide an intro about w3c
18:45:45 [glazou]
… second, brief update on recent activities
18:46:03 [glazou]
… for you W3C members, that's not news
18:46:08 [glazou]
… but others need it
18:46:26 [glazou]
… third, some thoughts about why w3c thinks it is important for us
18:46:33 [glazou]
… w3c founded by TBL inventor of web
18:46:38 [glazou]
… still director of w3c
18:46:48 [glazou]
… simple and powerful mission, lead the web to full potential
18:46:55 [glazou]
… good job done but more to do
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18:47:01 [glazou]
… member-based organization
18:47:12 [glazou]
… companies, research, academic, other standards bodies
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18:47:26 [glazou]
… financial model comes from the largest companies called full members
18:47:33 [glazou]
… all the big names you know
18:47:41 [glazou]
… discussing with the whole ecosystem of the wbe
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18:48:06 [glazou]
… professional staff to support tbl and the dialog with the industry, 70 on staff in 4 locations, latest host in China
18:48:31 [glazou]
… our major goal is to define tech standards
18:48:35 [ArtB]
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18:48:46 [glazou]
… tbl did not want companies to innovate alone and create wall gardens
18:48:51 [glazou]
… we then all work together
18:48:58 [glazou]
… contribute innovations and keep it open
18:49:05 [glazou]
… standards available to everybody
18:49:29 [glazou]
… 4 tech domains in W3C: interaction, Ubiweb, a11y, tech and society
18:49:32 [glazou]
… 45 WGs
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18:49:48 [glazou]
… html 450 people in the WG, some other WG are much smaller
18:49:55 [glazou]
… liaison with ?? other orgs
18:50:09 [tmichel]
With 80 orgs
18:50:11 [glazou]
… royalty-free patent policy is our marjor cornerstone
18:50:37 [glazou]
… we ask members to make royalty)free commitments
18:50:51 [glazou]
… it's more an int'l forum
18:51:02 [tzviya]
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18:51:08 [glazou]
… we have relationship with de jure standards bodies too
18:51:21 [glazou]
… lately, we've been working on a collection of standards: open web platform
18:51:24 [glazou]
… many different techs
18:51:26 [glazou]
… html5
18:51:42 [glazou]
… but also css, webapps for apis, fonts, device APIs, etc.
18:51:59 [glazou]
… large contrast with what we had 15 years ago
18:52:03 [glazou]
… rich interactivity
18:52:05 [glazou]
… multimedia
18:52:08 [glazou]
… graphics
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18:52:17 [glazou]
… verye exciting capabilities
18:52:29 [glazou]
… interesting number of different devices
18:52:38 [glazou]
… was difficult to browse the web from a phone
18:52:54 [glazou]
… at CES everyone had a HTML5 set-top box
18:53:03 [glazou]
… the web is now ubiquitous
18:53:19 [glazou]
… making it work everywhere is a feature of the open web platform
18:53:31 [glazou]
… core supporting role for the trends of the industry and society
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18:53:55 [glazou]
… survey dopne over a year ago, how many developers using html5
18:54:00 [glazou]
18:54:04 [glazou]
… now 150% :-)
18:54:24 [glazou]
… how many browsers will html5 in 2016: 2.1 billion
18:54:37 [glazou]
… gartner surveyed tech
18:54:49 [glazou]
… number 2 was mobile apps
18:54:50 [azaroth42]
How do they know 2.1B? Ran out their 32 bits ;)
18:55:09 [glazou]
… only the beginning
18:55:21 [glazou]
… as we move to next step, impact on businesses is amazing
18:55:31 [glazou]
… we talk to many people in indsutries
18:55:37 [glazou]
… next-gen technology
18:55:49 [glazou]
… business impact : opportunity for dialogs and business change
18:55:55 [glazou]
… should not surprise us
18:56:04 [eric]
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18:56:12 [tzviya]
opporunity for businesses to change
18:56:13 [glazou]
… looking back, the basic idea of the web transformed sharing of info and al
18:56:39 [glazou]
jeff: what about publishing and the web?
18:56:42 [glazou]
… not strangers
18:56:49 [glazou]
… we publish web sites
18:56:58 [glazou]
… the web is a really nice tool
18:57:05 [glazou]
… introduced a new form of publishing
18:57:13 [glazou]
… able to reach more people in some more open ways
18:57:33 [glazou]
… when publishers needed add'l tools orgs created enhancements of what we're doing
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18:57:43 [glazou]
… the web has democratized publishing
18:57:50 [mgylling]
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18:57:51 [glazou]
… every person is now a publiusher
18:58:13 [Jeff_Bell]
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18:58:17 [glazou]
… we reached conclusion we need a more complete robust dialog with publishing community
18:58:29 [glazou]
… if we have a better dialog, we can make thinbgs happen better
18:58:38 [fjh]
18:58:51 [glazou]
… let's be at the front-line of publishing and web technology
18:59:05 [glazou]
… I'll talk about it at TOC on wednesday
18:59:15 [glazou]
… I'm going to listen and learn today and tomorrow
18:59:23 [glazou]
… and will be your spokesperson at TOC
18:59:39 [glazou]
… will just mention a few high-level thoughts
18:59:42 [glazou]
… 4 categories for better dialog
18:59:48 [glazou]
… first, styling on the web
18:59:57 [glazou]
… nothing compared to classical publishing
19:00:01 [glazou]
… we need to learn from that
19:00:27 [glazou]
… second, more publishing will leverage the web
19:00:32 [glazou]
thrid, distribution
19:00:43 [glazou]
s/thrid/... third
19:00:51 [glazou]
… fourth, the web is consumed differently
19:00:52 [ArtB]
RRSAgent, make minutes
19:00:52 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate ArtB
19:01:01 [glazou]
… that will change everything
19:01:22 [glazou]
jeff: that's all I had to say
19:01:33 [glazou]
… at the end of day, we discuss transforming businesses
19:01:42 [glazou]
… remember this is just the 1st meeting of that kind
19:01:46 [glazou]
… lots more conversation
19:01:49 [glazou]
… thank you
19:02:20 [glazou]
karen: introducing Bill McCoy, CEO IDPF
19:02:22 [karl]
Topic: Keynote - Extending W3C current work, collaboration with IDPF
19:02:22 [abole]
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19:02:42 [glazou]
bill: thank you Karen and Jeff
19:02:57 [glazou]
… thank you all very much
19:03:06 [glazou]
… a priviledge to be here and make this happen
19:03:15 [glazou]
… w3c process for wkshops is pretty selective
19:03:24 [glazou]
… so thanks all of you
19:03:43 [glazou]
… many of us here may realize a hashtag is a subchannel of IRC
19:04:07 [glazou]
… #w3cebook is the hastag
19:04:13 [glazou]
19:04:26 [glazou]
bill: warm-up presentation
19:04:34 [glazou]
… I'll be little controversial
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19:05:02 [glazou]
bill: a word about IDPF
19:05:11 [glazou]
… 2/3rds of you are IDPF members
19:05:14 [glazou]
… 350 members
19:05:19 [glazou]
… all parts of the value chain
19:05:28 [glazou]
… (lists)
19:05:47 [glazou]
… mission is to foster an open ecosystem for digital publishing
19:05:51 [glazou]
… develop epub format
19:05:55 [glazou]
… dozen years
19:06:03 [glazou]
… one piece only of the big picture
19:06:08 [glazou]
… epub widely adopted for ebooks
19:06:24 [glazou]
… many ebook retailers distribute epub to consumers
19:06:35 [glazou]
… interchange format too
19:06:46 [glazou]
… conversion from epub to local format
19:06:51 [glazou]
… also database format
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19:06:59 [glazou]
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19:07:10 [glazou]
jeff: needs to extend html to the future
19:07:26 [glazou]
… 2 years ago, kickoff meeting of epub3 in NYC
19:07:50 [glazou]
… (digression about Marriott Marquis lobby)
19:07:54 [glazou]
… charter for epub3
19:08:00 [glazou]
… two distinct paths
19:08:09 [glazou]
… xml schema
19:08:15 [glazou]
… or build on the web
19:08:23 [glazou]
… at that time html5 support was minority
19:08:23 [mgylling]
s/Marriott Marquis/Random House
19:08:44 [glazou]
… adopting all of html5 would mean browser was required
19:08:50 [glazou]
… consensus reached eventually
19:09:06 [glazou]
… even Norman Walsch agreed
19:09:15 [glazou]
… 3 years later, still dealing with consequences
19:09:19 [karl]
19:09:21 [glazou]
… was a brain transplant
19:09:28 [glazou]
… still parts difficult to deal with
19:09:39 [glazou]
… the publishing industry does not exist ina vacuum
19:09:46 [glazou]
… one click away from the web
19:09:56 [glazou]
… we cannot reinvent the wheel
19:10:00 [gluejar]
@glazou, will the IRC channel logs be openly available?
19:10:04 [glazou]
… building on the web was a no-brainer
19:10:21 [glazou]
… if you look at the last 20+ years, 3 ways to deliver digital contents
19:10:47 [glazou]
… download files or apps ?
19:10:53 [glazou]
… not a topic for the next two days
19:10:59 [glazou]
… all valid ways to distribute contents
19:11:05 [glazou]
… depends on what consumer need
19:11:13 [glazou]
… sometimes one, sometimes the other
19:11:20 [glazou]
… we reinventing what we call books and magazines
19:11:34 [glazou]
… no need to argue about files#apps#...
19:11:34 [plh-ebook]
19:11:38 [glazou]
thanks plh-ebook
19:11:50 [glazou]
bill: browser interface is what users see
19:11:55 [glazou]
… we're at the very beginning
19:12:17 [glazou]
… consumers are spending more time in apps and less in files
19:12:24 [glazou]
… controversial perhaps
19:12:32 [glazou]
… but not aguing against the open web platform
19:12:45 [glazou]
… web technologies are becoming common place
19:12:52 [glazou]
… so we're on the verge of success
19:13:04 [glazou]
… reusing tools and components across all modes of creation and distirbution
19:13:09 [glazou]
… a universal platform
19:13:13 [glazou]
… the web platform
19:13:16 [glazou]
… not done yet
19:13:29 [glazou]
… we're also near failure
19:13:57 [glazou]
… not surprising
19:14:07 [glazou]
… the big risk is fragmentation
19:14:17 [glazou]
… look at webapps, many systems
19:14:26 [glazou]
… fragmentation already there in webapps
19:14:42 [glazou]
… in publishing we have our own suspects
19:14:46 [glazou]
… all html5-based
19:14:51 [glazou]
… but non interoperable
19:15:03 [glazou]
… many will support epub3 but no every feature
19:15:09 [glazou]
… so browser wars still alive and well
19:15:18 [glazou]
… of course, all propose proprietary extensions
19:15:35 [glazou]
… (digression about Adobe stealing from Xerox :-) )
19:15:46 [glazou]
… extract all the value from open standards
19:15:53 [glazou]
… taking advantage of it
19:16:06 [glazou]
… bootstrap your own proprietary platform
19:16:23 [glazou]
… shame on us as an open community if we let that happen
19:16:35 [glazou]
… even worse is monopoly control by a single vendor
19:16:42 [glazou]
… let's face it, we're almost here
19:16:58 [glazou]
… what can we do about fragmentation?
19:17:09 [glazou]
… 100 specs are used by us !
19:17:20 [glazou]
… we don't even have an exact count of them
19:17:40 [glazou]
… the open web platform is perceived as unrelated blocks of legos (shown on screen)
19:17:48 [glazou]
… we need a better architecture
19:17:56 [glazou]
… no enough vision
19:18:08 [glazou]
… what specs comprise the platform? too many WGs ?
19:18:14 [glazou]
… some WGs seems competitors
19:18:23 [glazou]
… html5 did sucessfully kill Flash
19:18:34 [glazou]
… but the open platform is not able to catch up yet
19:18:50 [glazou]
… the browser market share is today better than it used to be because no monopoly
19:18:57 [glazou]
… interoperable standards are here
19:19:04 [glazou]
… lots of issues to work out still
19:19:14 [glazou]
… 2 things we need to do, really:
19:19:21 [glazou]
… first, collaborate much better
19:19:39 [glazou]
… we're the bazaar not the cathedral
19:19:54 [glazou]
… we cannot remain in isolation
19:20:14 [glazou]
… browser vendors must NOT be the only ones dealing with the open web platform
19:20:28 [glazou]
… minimizing religious disagreements about secondary details
19:20:48 [glazou]
… (digression about Monty Python)
19:21:25 [glazou]
… not pointing fingers at W3C, same thing about IPDF
19:21:40 [glazou]
bill: we have responsability and we're not there yet
19:22:00 [glazou]
… second, eliminit assumption that browsers are only to display web contents
19:22:11 [glazou]
… the OWP has to make documents and apps first-class
19:22:20 [glazou]
… everything can be served from the cloud
19:22:32 [glazou]
… we don't really know what the future experience will be
19:22:43 [glazou]
… we can also take a position here
19:23:03 [glazou]
… we simply have to do it to create momentum
19:23:10 [glazou]
… let's raise the bar of the OWP
19:23:17 [glazou]
… the browser wars have shown
19:23:27 [glazou]
… I'd like to see excellence
19:23:43 [miketaylr]
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19:23:48 [glazou]
… question if the OWP should bother with requirements from commercial platforms
19:23:52 [Mike5]
RRSAgent, make minutes
19:23:52 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate Mike5
19:24:11 [glazou]
… does it matter if OWP is adopted by publishing and digital platforms?
19:24:33 [glazou]
… still doubt if W3C membership has embraced the notion of publishing industry+web
19:24:44 [glazou]
… going to be a win-win and we need to realize it
19:24:58 [glazou]
… full adoption is going to be large across various industries
19:25:03 [davidwood]
Can play a role? Documentation of both the vision and how the components should fit together seems a possible direction to discourage fragmentation.
19:25:09 [glazou]
… high-design content needed
19:25:26 [glazou]
bill: interactivity and rich media
19:25:38 [glazou]
… w3c does not speak of semantic web any more
19:25:46 [davidwood]
19:25:46 [glazou]
… learning material for education?
19:25:48 [davidwood]
19:26:05 [glazou]
… semantic structure
19:26:09 [glazou]
… files, apps, websites
19:26:15 [glazou]
… multiple channels, interop
19:26:25 [glazou]
… int'l, global languages
19:26:38 [glazou]
… writing modes in CSS
19:26:55 [glazou]
… publishers need to represent content on various shapes and sizes of screens
19:27:03 [glazou]
… a11y is a critical focus
19:27:16 [glazou]
… print disabled people must have access
19:27:22 [glazou]
… we need user-friendly tools
19:27:35 [glazou]
… democratizing the web cannot only for coders
19:27:41 [glazou]
… (applause)
19:28:00 [glazou]
… benefits of the focusing on OWP are both ways
19:28:15 [glazou]
… it's not about publishing to raise the web, but vice-versa too
19:28:22 [glazou]
… I'm optimistic we can succeed
19:28:31 [karl]
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19:28:32 [glazou]
… universal OWP for publishing and web sites
19:28:34 [davidwood]
Structured semantics are legitimately important (IMO) for publishers because the alternatives include fragmented individual solutions, unstructured semantics like tags and disconnected semantics like microformats.
19:28:40 [glazou]
… future of the web is up to all of you
19:28:45 [glazou]
… let's make next two days count
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19:29:34 [karl]
19:29:55 [karl]
Topic: 14:30-16:00 Session 1: Presentation (CSS, Fonts, etc.)
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19:32:10 [tmichel]
What we really need to minute is the discussions sessions.
19:32:26 [tzviya]
where are the minutes?
19:32:34 [tmichel]
For the talk we will publish the slides
19:32:46 [karen]
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19:32:56 [tmichel]
But everyone is welcome to scribe during the presentation of course ;-)
19:32:58 [karen]
HL: multicolor is CSS module
19:33:06 [karen]
...resizing this, you can reset width
19:33:14 [karen]
...number of columns changes dynamically
19:33:23 [karen]
...basically say my ideal wideth is 14m
19:33:26 [karen] line of code
19:33:31 [karen]
...we have this nasty scroll bar
19:33:39 [karen] read full article, you have to scroll up and down
19:33:42 [karen]
...not idea
19:33:46 [karen] we added overflow page
19:33:56 [karen]
...if I were on a tablet, I would use my finger
19:34:03 [karen]
...this is one idea
19:34:09 [karen]
...the Romans changed the world of publishing
19:34:15 [karen]
...putting things on scrolls
19:34:27 [karen]
...another magic things that happens when I combine floats
19:34:30 [karen]
...with multicolumns
19:34:37 [karen]
...why image is on the right
19:34:43 [karen]
...also span two paragraphs
19:34:51 [karen]
...moving from 4-3 columns, something gives
19:34:54 [ivan]
rrsagent, draft minutes
19:34:54 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate ivan
19:34:56 [karen]
...image moves to next page
19:35:02 [karen]
...don't have to write in detail, it happens normally
19:35:12 [karen]
...We want more pictures and flow things to bottom, top, corners
19:35:19 [karen]
...make elements span across all columns
19:35:25 [karen] see where I am aiming with this layout
19:35:29 [karen]
...I replace those cats
19:35:36 [karen]
...replaced them with sheep
19:35:47 [karen]
...We don't know what The Guardian designer would have done
19:35:54 [karen]
...this is all being done dynamically in front of you
19:35:58 [karen]
...See the byline, second colunn
19:36:02 [karen]
...It was hard to do
19:36:08 [karen]
...pushed things aside a bit
19:36:12 [karen]
...That's newspaper example
19:36:18 [karen]
...this can also be done for magazines
19:36:26 [karen]
...we can combine this with what we have in CSS
19:36:35 [karen]
...the rotation, text shadows...still page layout
19:36:39 [karen]
...and only ten lines of code
19:36:47 [karen]
...Another interesting example is dictionaries
19:36:53 [karen]
...many have text and images intertwined
19:36:57 [karen]
...As I resize this
19:37:01 [karen]
...the images make up white areas
19:37:06 [karen]
...this image of Cato
19:37:11 [karen]
...white space
19:37:20 [karen] find a solution...such as all pages on top
19:37:23 [karen]
...but that doesn't work
19:37:33 [karen]
...still use float and multicolumn layout
19:37:36 [karen]
...but also use snap
19:37:46 [karen] it moves to its natural position in the layout
19:37:57 [karen]
...this is very useful, especially in scientific publications
19:38:03 [karen]
...I end with an academic paper
19:38:10 [karen]
...This is a boring looking document
19:38:15 [karen]
...but it has an important byline
19:38:20 [karen]
...has been impossible to do on the web
19:38:28 [karen] I reformat for different screens, it changes
19:38:34 [karen]
...I want it to be on bottom and in page mode
19:38:36 [karen]
...There we are
19:38:41 [karen]
...let me summarize briefly
19:38:44 [karen]
...In ten lines of code
19:38:53 [karen]
...I can replicate 90 percent of publications
19:39:00 [karen]
...clean HTML, responsive design
19:39:06 [karen]
...number of columns changes from tablet to mobile
19:39:09 [karen]
...this works out the box
19:39:17 [karen]
...Think we should have run-arounds
19:39:21 [karen]
...and synchronization with baselines
19:39:23 [karen]
...don't have those
19:39:30 [karen]
...and select independent colors and pages
19:40:14 [jdovey]
19:40:15 [karen]
Alan: Next speaker is Vlad Levantovsky, Monotype
19:40:39 [karen]
Vlad: Monotype is a big organization everyone knows
19:40:56 [karen]
...I found it to be useful to start with newspapers similar to Hokum
19:41:04 [karen]
...see type
19:41:15 [karen]
...two and a half inches in size with eight different type faces
19:41:20 [karen]
...doesn't really help to convey information
19:41:25 [karen]
...Nothing really changes when you look at the web
19:41:33 [karen] much type
19:41:41 [karen]
...Jeff mentioned in his keynote, everyone is a publisher
19:41:43 [karen]
...which is scarey
19:41:50 [karen]
...So I'm going to talk about professional publishers
19:41:57 [karen]
...not just what we say, but how we say
19:42:19 [karen]
...I'm sure you'd like 'Harvey Davidson' in swirley font
19:42:28 [karen]
...[a few other examples]
19:42:36 [karen]
...Type face gives your message trust and integrity
19:42:42 [karen] can make it whisper or screan
19:42:49 [karen]
[GoodYear example]
19:42:57 [karen]
...all these tricks can be accomplished today
19:43:03 [karen]
...Do we have web fonts? yes
19:43:09 [karen]
...Embedded fonts? yes
19:43:14 [karen] is good; are we done?
19:43:17 [karen]
...Not really
19:43:38 [karen]
...Jan Tschhichold said, "Everything that counts in typography is...."
19:43:48 [karen]
...Screen typography is very different from paper
19:43:56 [karen]
...why it's different
19:44:06 [karen]
...Here is how I want my type to be seen on the screen page
19:44:24 [karen]
...when glyph outlines convert into pixels, it is blurry
19:44:31 [karen]
...apologize for highly visual nature
19:44:36 [karen]
...Quality of rendoring is big factor
19:44:40 [karen]
...that is not easy to control
19:44:44 [karen]
...those tyings are type features
19:44:49 [karen]
...when you look at print publications
19:45:01 [karen], most publishers use ligatures, numbering styles
19:45:14 [karen] that publishers get accustomed to using
19:45:24 [karen]
...Everything from the printing press will look identical
19:45:29 [karen] their true, original design
19:45:36 [karen]
...with onscreen typography
19:45:47 [karen]
...publishers need to understand the underlying screen limitations
19:45:57 [karen]
...something that works well in print will not work on screen
19:46:04 [karen]
...Here is an example of incorrect type faces
19:46:11 [karen]
[Mad Men example]
19:46:35 [karen]
...At Monotype we have been going through effort of converting popular book faces into ebook formats
19:46:47 [karen]
...shows changes of width, proportion, limitations of print display
19:47:02 [karen]
...We have been developing completely new breeds of type faces for onscreen and ebook display
19:47:08 [karen]
...Malabar is one such example
19:47:18 [karen]
...see this onscreen in the Nook reader from Barnes & Noble
19:47:22 [karen] crisp design
19:47:27 [karen]
...and is popular with ebook readers
19:47:32 [karen]
...That concludes my presentation
19:47:44 [karen]
...I wanted to outline the problems, mostly in the professional publishing world
19:47:52 [karen]
...We'll see more of them
19:47:55 [karen]
...We need to communicate
19:48:07 [karen]
...Publishers need to understand limitations of screen typopgraphy
19:48:16 [karen]
...and web needs to understand their needs
19:48:21 [karen] we can accomplish both
19:48:30 [tmichel]
rrsagent, draft minutes
19:48:30 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate tmichel
19:48:46 [karen]
Jaejung Kim, KAIST
19:48:57 [tmichel]
Enrichment of eBook User Interfaces: A Skeuomorphic Approach, Jaejeung Kim (Kaist)
19:49:00 [karen]
19:50:20 [kaz]
rrsagent, draft minutes
19:50:20 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate kaz
19:50:46 [TomDN]
TomDN has joined #ebooks
19:50:50 [glazou]
ScribeNIck: karen
19:51:20 [kaz]
19:51:46 [karen]
rrsagent, make minutes
19:51:46 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate karen
19:51:57 [kaz]
i/What we really need to minute is the discussions sessions/scribenick: karen/
19:51:59 [kaz]
rrsagent, draft minutes
19:51:59 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate kaz
19:52:41 [karen]
JK: I am a user experience researcher at KAIST
19:52:50 [karen]
...presentation is enrichment of user interfaces
19:52:58 [karen]
...Reading a book requires a good presentation
19:53:04 [karen]
...content layouts, font alignment
19:53:11 [karen]
...another perspective is well manipulation of pages
19:53:17 [karen]
...which requires a good user interface
19:53:28 [karen] the content changes depending upon user input
19:53:33 [karen]
...Novels are mainly composed of text
19:53:39 [karen]
...we read line by line in sequential order
19:53:43 [TomDN]
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19:53:43 [karen]
...this is formal reading
19:53:47 [karl]
ebook prototype UI by KAIST
19:53:58 [karen]
...Text books are composed of text, graphics...but not always in a sequence
19:54:03 [karen]
...jump to references
19:54:13 [karen]
...Newspapers and magazines are composed of all sorts of content
19:54:16 [karen]
...we read without order
19:54:22 [karen] it's informal or casual reading
19:54:30 [karen]
...eBook content are more than just text
19:54:35 [karen]
...they are evolving to more interactive
19:54:40 [karen]
...this is what ePub is aiming for
19:54:51 [karen] requires a more dynamic way of navigating through the content
19:54:58 [karen]
...We conducted research to search for answer
19:55:04 [karen]
...I will show you our design approach
19:55:17 [karen]
...focus was not just eye candy or photo realism
19:55:29 [karen]
...but to functionally contribute to the users' reading experience
19:55:40 [karen] bring print reading functional to touch-screen device
19:55:47 [karen]
...Let me introduce you to two missing features
19:55:51 [karen]
...thumbing through pages
19:55:55 [karen]
...and temporal
19:55:59 [karen]
19:56:12 [karen]
...our prototype is not based on any web technology
19:56:14 [ivan]
s/temporal/temporal bookmarking/
19:56:19 [karen]
...Thumbing through is a four edge
19:56:26 [karen]
...highlight area is called the four edge
19:56:29 [karen] thumb through
19:56:43 [karen] are able to perceive overall structure and content in a few seconds
19:56:49 [karen]
...cannot use search
19:56:59 [karen]
...have to go through pages to find a picture without explicit data
19:57:11 [karen]
...use of this thumbing through was high in formal documents
19:57:17 [karen]
...four edge UI is rendered on side
19:57:20 [karen]
...touch dragging outward
19:57:28 [karen]
...flips pages very quickly, in a few seconds
19:57:36 [minhyungko]
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19:57:36 [karen]
...and user is freely able to turn pages in a book holding position
19:57:55 [karen]
...addtional role of this four edge gives a tactile cue of page location, amount of pages left...plays a huge role
19:58:03 [karen]
...also used to tag for location; a sort of bookmark
19:58:09 [karen]
...we applied this in the ebook in the four edge area
19:58:22 [karen]
...another feature was temporal bookmarking
19:58:28 [karen]
...frequently done in book reading tests
19:58:33 [karen]
...make a comparison among pages
19:58:49 [karen]
...or stay on current page and get content from going back/forth to other pages
19:58:53 [karen]
...use dragging gesture
19:59:01 [karen]
...on release either return or stay the remote page
19:59:05 [karen]
...Give you a demo
19:59:26 [karen]
...This is thumbing through; second is temporal bookmarking
19:59:34 [karen] pages and instantly return
19:59:48 [karen]
...This video has had more than 500K views on YouTube
19:59:59 [karen]
...Issues and requirements from Web perspective
20:00:02 [karen]
...If it goes to web
20:00:07 [karen] requires a layout of the interface
20:00:14 [karen]
...and rendering of page stack behind the current view page
20:00:18 [karen]
...this cannot replace
20:00:20 [karen]
...the slider bar
20:00:25 [karen] jump from page to page
20:00:33 [karen]
...requires an HTML5 cache control to load pages
20:00:44 [karen]
...also an API for placing additional features on four edge area
20:00:47 [karen] bookmarking
20:00:59 [karen]
...and also flexible division of separate content on same page
20:01:12 [karen]
...I have my device and you are welcome to try it hands-on later on
20:01:41 [glazou]
ScribeNick: glazou
20:01:57 [glazou]
stearns: introduces himself
20:02:07 [glazou]
… "Web versus eBooks"
20:02:14 [glazou]
… relatively new to both domains
20:02:21 [glazou]
… been working on CSS standards last two years
20:02:27 [glazou]
… epub features in CSS
20:02:33 [glazou]
… what epub needed for adaptive layout
20:02:47 [glazou]
… will detail my impressions
20:02:50 [eric]
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20:02:58 [glazou]
… great thing to see epub3 based on html5
20:03:00 [glazou]
… and the OWP
20:03:12 [glazou]
… the web ecosystem is so much larger than the one we have for ebooks
20:03:25 [glazou]
… it's going thru the transition now
20:03:40 [glazou]
… more widespread authoring skills
20:03:49 [glazou]
… Web+EPUB is then a good shift
20:04:03 [glazou]
… but what I would like to see is the two techs working better together
20:04:12 [edas]
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20:04:20 [glazou]
stearns: where interests converge, we should find a single solution
20:04:34 [glazou]
… where EPUB leads, improve the Web based on it
20:04:47 [glazou]
… for instance the EPUB content document
20:05:04 [glazou]
… we should work on it in the CSS WG looking at those requirements
20:05:20 [glazou]
… where interests diverge, make the web extensible and use polyfills
20:05:44 [glazou]
… the IDPF should create those polyfills
20:05:52 [glazou]
… packaging is a convergence
20:05:59 [glazou]
… offline apps and documents share a lot of things
20:06:06 [glazou]
… would be an awful thing to see them diverge
20:06:24 [glazou]
… we should work at converging them into a single baseline
20:06:47 [glazou]
… the Content document for EPUB was leading the W3C standards and used prefixed CSS properties to do that
20:07:06 [glazou]
… some people complained about WIP in CSS but I think it was fine
20:07:20 [glazou]
… showing what they actually need
20:07:33 [liam]
s/WIP/using prefixed properties from specs in progress/
20:07:38 [glazou]
… once you have prefixed properties, you have to push ; IDPF has to push
20:07:50 [glazou]
… to make W3C specs move along the REC track
20:08:05 [glazou]
stearns: we should prioritize based on that
20:08:12 [glazou]
… CSS TExt are crucial to EPUB
20:08:17 [glazou]
… needed also for the OWP
20:08:24 [glazou]
… still a Working Draft until last week
20:08:45 [glazou]
stearns: CSS WG meeting last week about it
20:08:55 [glazou]
… I'm guilty about keeping things late
20:09:06 [glazou]
… Want to push EPUB things need
20:09:10 [glazou]
… CSS 3 Speech
20:09:17 [glazou]
… there epub properties about this
20:09:29 [glazou]
… in CSS WG this ended up at the end of list of priorities
20:09:41 [glazou]
… only the editor has been pushing this
20:09:45 [glazou]
… so we need more participation from IDPF about this
20:09:59 [glazou]
… it needs to go to LC and needs Test Suite
20:10:13 [glazou]
… this particular lags because of lack of interest
20:10:23 [glazou]
stearns: that's one point of collaboration we can do
20:10:28 [glazou]
… CSS specs needs test suites
20:10:34 [glazou]
… and love more generally
20:10:42 [glazou]
… IDPF could contribute producing them
20:10:56 [glazou]
… naive understanding is that IDPF has not done that testing
20:11:02 [glazou]
… there could be more
20:12:02 [glazou]
… if there are EPUB tests we can go to, are this or that property available in EPUB readers?
20:12:13 [glazou]
… each viewer is not required to support everything
20:12:22 [glazou]
stearns: so different capabilities across readers
20:12:30 [glazou]
… now, polyfills...
20:12:48 [glazou]
… there are some things that could be added ontop of OWP to support EPUB features
20:12:53 [glazou]
… for instance in JS
20:13:11 [glazou]
… would help viewer development
20:13:28 [glazou]
stearns: adaptive layout for instance, Adobe had a large JS library
20:13:37 [glazou]
… not really the way you want to do a polyfill
20:13:48 [glazou]
… smaller minimal chunks per feature
20:14:01 [glazou]
… not a comprehensive, too large library
20:14:11 [glazou]
… not everything can be polyfilled
20:14:21 [glazou]
… things from håkon's demo for instance
20:14:57 [glazou]
… some things should be prioritized in the OWP or made so they can be polyfilled
20:15:00 [eric]
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20:15:27 [glazou]
stearns: the CSS WG appears to me to come up with 80% solutions that are not extensible
20:15:35 [glazou]
… hence dead ends
20:15:40 [glazou]
… and then JS is needed
20:16:00 [glazou]
… we should have extensibility points so an ecosystem like eBooks can build upon our stack
20:16:05 [glazou]
… paginated views for instance
20:16:16 [glazou]
… would be a terrible failure if we come up with different solutions
20:16:31 [glazou]
… a bit about my own specs, Regions, Exclusions & Shapes, Page Templates
20:16:39 [glazou]
.. all things about adaptive layout
20:16:48 [glazou]
… find a good isolated feature for each piece
20:17:00 [glazou]
… CSS features EPUB can build upon
20:17:24 [glazou]
… I would like to see more collaboration and feedback about this
20:17:48 [glazou]
… CSS Regions in particular has diverged from original intent, from what you see in EPUB
20:18:03 [glazou]
… so complaining a bit : we need more collaboration
20:18:30 [glazou]
… when I brought proposal to IDPF, I got silence and splitism
20:18:37 [glazou]
… that attitude needs to change
20:18:48 [glazou]
… there will always be changes in a standards process
20:18:54 [gluejar]
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20:18:55 [glazou]
… you just have to accept it and live with it
20:19:03 [glazou]
… I'm not going to take more time
20:19:10 [glazou]
… I want Q&A now
20:19:24 [glazou]
… I want to raise the OWP to ebook standards
20:19:41 [glazou]
… (applause)
20:20:11 [glazou]
plh breaks the ice :-)
20:20:38 [glazou]
karlpro: how many people know about polyfills and caniuse in the room? raise hands !
20:20:39 [tmichel]
Karl Dubost
20:20:53 [glazou]
people raise hands
20:20:55 [tmichel]
Plyfill about 30 %
20:21:10 [glazou]
stearns: polyfill 1/2, caniuse a bit less
20:21:18 [davidwood]
20:21:20 [glazou]
stearns explains what they are
20:21:40 [tmichel]
stearns explains Polyfill
20:22:38 [glazou]
stearns explains caniuse
20:22:52 [tmichel]
and also explains caniuse
20:22:55 [karl]
20:23:06 [glazou]
Ambica Desaraju (CourseSmart): 3 questions
20:23:15 [glazou]
… could bindings be an example of polyfills ?
20:23:27 [glazou]
… epub lists bindings as fallbacks for widgets the browser does not support
20:23:31 [glazou]
… for example slideshow
20:23:49 [glazou]
… bindings pulled out at run time
20:23:57 [glazou]
stearns: you choose different JS ?
20:24:03 [glazou]
stearns: then yes
20:24:13 [glazou]
ambica: future of html5 appcache?
20:24:17 [glazou]
all laugh
20:24:26 [glazou]
plh: working on it
20:24:34 [glazou]
… the appcache meachnism is broken right now
20:24:40 [glazou]
… implemented but broken
20:24:55 [glazou]
… meeting last week in london to find a new proposal
20:24:58 [glazou]
… work being done
20:25:04 [glazou]
… trying to find asolution
20:25:13 [glazou]
ambica: are mobile devices considered too?
20:25:14 [glazou]
plh: yes
20:25:49 [tmichel]
rrsagent, draft minutes
20:25:49 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate tmichel
20:25:53 [glazou]
stearns: documents and apps are all the same thing ; example of PhoneGap and polyfill model
20:26:19 [glazou]
… whenever we build somthg into PhoneGap, we want that to become obsolete and polyfills the way to go
20:26:34 [glazou]
ambica: howcome, you listed ten lines of coce
20:26:51 [glazou]
… what about responsive design for mobile devices, CSS Media Queries for many devices
20:26:58 [glazou]
howcome: there were no MQ in my examples
20:27:01 [glazou]
… only multicol
20:27:25 [glazou]
… when you hit the limit, you need the MQ but that's a last resort solution
20:27:32 [glazou]
… we have a range here
20:27:46 [glazou]
plh: Philippe Le Hégaret, W3C
20:27:53 [glazou]
… thanks for bringing testing
20:28:01 [glazou]
… had a meeting in SF about that
20:28:09 [glazou]
… reps from mobile and non-mobile industry
20:28:17 [glazou]
… all had a their own profile of OWP
20:28:25 [glazou]
… they realized they share 90%
20:28:32 [glazou]
… lots of common interest
20:28:47 [glazou]
… if we're going to look at epub's profile, lots of common interest too
20:28:57 [glazou]
… so contributing to testing to OWP
20:29:12 [tmichel]
Kim Marriott
20:29:15 [glazou]
Kim Marriott : CSS has come a long way
20:29:23 [glazou]
… one of the things we miss in CSS
20:29:41 [glazou]
… will it do everything for EPUB?
20:29:57 [glazou]
howcome: yeah, people always ask me for boustrophedon
20:30:17 [glazou]
stearns: I have a longer list than howcome
20:30:33 [glazou]
howcome: I think we should not stop before Guthenberg's bible
20:30:44 [tmichel]
Marky Gylling IDPF
20:30:48 [glazou]
Marcus Gylling, IDPF: we have few efforts on testing
20:30:52 [glazou]
… support grid
20:30:57 [glazou]
… similar to caniuse
20:31:11 [glazou]
… test suite on github
20:31:25 [glazou]
ACTION mgylling post URL here
20:31:41 [glazou]
mgylling: we should find ways to share testing platform
20:31:49 [glazou]
stearns: we just had meeting 2 weeks ago about that
20:31:52 [glazou]
… we can coordinate
20:31:57 [abole]
This BISG EPUB 3 Support Grid is set to be updated later this month...then again in April 2013...
20:32:01 [glazou]
… about TTWF
20:32:11 [glazou]
… will help to hear from IDPF and vice-versa
20:32:32 [glazou]
stearns: Tobbie Langel, Facebook and now W3C fellow is now your contact
20:32:55 [glazou]
Peter Krautzberger (Mathjax): polyfills are very interesting and we call for more collab
20:33:09 [glazou]
… what can we do with mathml since we see no interest from browser vendors
20:33:21 [glazou]
stearns: not familiar with MathML
20:33:28 [glazou]
… what is the alternative?
20:33:31 [glazou]
… images ?
20:33:40 [glazou]
peter: we produce both and SVG output
20:33:59 [glazou]
… we can do that only if you have mathml support
20:34:06 [glazou]
… webkit has not a single developer about it
20:34:13 [glazou]
… so how can you push a standards ?
20:34:37 [glazou]
stearns: mathml is more complex than the example I have : balancing text
20:35:02 [glazou]
… adobe developed a polyfill for it
20:35:37 [karen]
Glazou: If I can comment
20:35:42 [karen]
...we have an example in the market
20:35:52 [karen]
...about a large difference between WebKit
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20:36:03 [karen]
...on Asian languages
20:36:11 [karen]
...only way to improve mark-up is to change it all
20:36:41 [karen]
20:37:02 [karen]
Kaz: Thank you for your great presentations
20:37:13 [karen]
...I was interested in Alan's presentation
20:37:17 [karen]
...ebooks services and devices
20:37:24 [karen]
...Opera had speech
20:37:26 [plinss]
20:37:33 [glazou]
glazou: just use whatever rendering engine is available, that's going to introduce a shift in the market and other engines will respond
20:37:37 [karen]
...and speech API is implemented
20:37:43 [karen]
...W3C is working on speech capability
20:37:46 [karen]
...for web apps
20:37:51 [glazou]
scribenick: karen
20:37:52 [duga]
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20:37:55 [karen]
...ePub3 includes SML capability
20:38:06 [karen]
...wondering about what type of extensibility should be for eBooks?
20:38:14 [karen] there anything specified; other options?
20:38:24 [danielweck]
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20:38:27 [karen]
HL: You want to find common solutions to problems without pollyfils
20:38:34 [karen]
...sometimes will fail when moving to other devices
20:38:41 [karen]
...want to identify the core problems
20:38:48 [karen]
...certainly speech and audio are high on the list
20:38:54 [karen]
...we did implement this with IBM
20:39:02 [karen]
...we found we had a crash bug in the code
20:39:11 [karen]
...and people had not noticed
20:39:22 [karen]
Kaz: Do you have suggestions for speech interface, Alan?
20:39:33 [karen]
Alan: I don't have enough experience to provide an informed opinion
20:39:42 [karen]
...anyone else who has experience in the audience
20:40:03 [karen]
Gerard Capio, Benetech
20:40:14 [karen]
GC: we use Chrome speech to text capability
20:40:19 [karen]
...which requires an extension
20:40:24 [karen]
...they have been working on working group
20:40:31 [karen] put forward a speech API
20:40:42 [karen]
...expect they will implement a speech synthesis piece
20:40:50 [karen]
...may be available in Chrome without extensions
20:41:11 [karen]
...And seeing other browsers like Firefox using it; will try to show a demo tomorrow in my presentation
20:41:22 [karen]
Mark Hakkinnen: Another part of speech is haptics
20:41:30 [karen]
...we have been experiment with this
20:41:36 [karen] students be more accessible
20:41:41 [karen]
...and more engaged
20:41:45 [karen]
...We are testing this
20:41:49 [kawabata]
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20:41:49 [karen]
...would like to see how this works
20:41:59 [karen]
...other technologies coming out such as haptics in CSS
20:42:02 [karen]
...any others?
20:42:05 [glazou]
RRSAgent, draft minutes
20:42:05 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate glazou
20:42:09 [karen]
Gerrard: I'll try to do a demo
20:42:12 [karen]
Ivan Herman, W3C
20:42:21 [karen]
IH: There is an underlying issue
20:42:26 [karen]
...not going into technical details
20:42:32 [karen]
...that comes up with all the discussions
20:42:46 [karen]
...that every decision is make on whether another browser is using something
20:42:55 [karen]
...W3C, like IDPF is a member organization
20:43:01 [karen]
...we work the members we get; those who are there
20:43:17 [karen] that WG, if only the big browsers are present, then they will take the decision
20:43:20 [karen]
...that is the way it works
20:43:25 [karen]
...The only way to change that
20:43:33 [karen] to have people who represent the users of OWP
20:43:35 [karen] eBooks
20:43:40 [karen]
...not sure how we work that out
20:43:44 [karen]
...there is an underlying thing
20:43:46 [philm]
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20:43:53 [karen]
...and I can imagine same for IDPF
20:44:03 [karen]
...we need the active presence and participation of the publishers
20:44:08 [kaz]
s/Mark Hakkinnen/Markku Hakkinen/
20:44:08 [karen] help turn the direction
20:44:13 [karen]
...might be a fight
20:44:16 [karen]
...with the browser vendors
20:44:25 [karen]
...What triggered me was something said about WebKit
20:44:26 [kaz]
s/Gerard Capio/Gerardo Capio/
20:44:30 [karen]
...not having MathML
20:44:36 [karen]
...WebKit is a place to put code in
20:44:49 [karen]
...if there are communities that want MathML in WebKit, they need to add it
20:44:59 [karen]
@@: @ has been doing the work for years
20:45:10 [karen]
Ivan: Only an example
20:45:17 [karen]
...underlying issue is the present please
20:45:24 [karen]
...have to work together on how to accomplish this
20:45:30 [karen]
...we have to find the mechanics for this
20:45:48 [karen]
Alan: YOu can talk about being present in the room, or you can cast it as engagement [laughter]
20:46:00 [karen]
@@: Work on accessibility with subtitles
20:46:11 [karen]
...some publishers want rich media
20:46:15 [karen] multiple languages
20:46:21 [karen]
...without having their assets multiplied
20:46:32 [karen]
...I had my catch-all answer
20:46:35 [karen]
...We have to "engage"
20:46:40 [karen]
...maybe there is more information to give
20:46:57 [karen]
Alan: I do know that there is a fight for the soul of sub-titling going on in W3C
20:46:58 [ivan]
s/@@: @/Murray Malroney/ @/
20:47:03 [karen]
...VTT vs TTML
20:47:12 [karen]
...there may be a tipping point you can influence by joining now
20:47:20 [karen]
Glazou: a point about collaboration
20:47:35 [karen]
...CSS Working Group designs specs but we are not the users
20:47:39 [karen]
...We had a big divergence
20:47:53 [karen]
...sometimes big arguments with the web designers
20:48:02 [karen]
...Brad @ is helping us do the right thing in CSS
20:48:07 [karen]
...for example if the grammar is bad
20:48:15 [karen]
...or not the best one for designers
20:48:19 [karen] should do that, too
20:48:26 [karen]
...Your presence is absolutely needed
20:48:41 [karen]
...We all forget that most ePub viewers are based on two rendering engines
20:48:49 [karen]
...Another way to help is to contribute code
20:48:57 [karen]
...higher a developer, it's not that expensive
20:49:05 [karen]
...compared to the publishing industry
20:49:11 [karen]
...higher a developer
20:49:19 [karen]
...W3C develops the Validator
20:49:24 [karen] took years, do it
20:49:28 [karen]
Alan: MathML is in WebKit
20:49:36 [karen]
...decision of Safari and Chrome whether to release it
20:49:39 [karen]
Glazou: fork it
20:49:54 [karen]
@ Design Science: I want to ask Vlad about fonts
20:50:03 [karen]
...what are we doing about making math fonts beautiful for the web
20:50:14 [karen]
...and make sure there are all the technical symbols and math symbols
20:50:19 [karen]
Vlad: We are not doing enough
20:50:22 [karen]
...we should do more
20:50:32 [karen]
...One of the messages I wanted to get across
20:50:40 [karen] to ask people what they need so we can work on them
20:50:46 [karen]
...So this question is important to us
20:50:54 [karen]
...not sure I can answer right now
20:51:18 [karen]
@: MathML Drop by Chrome...was disservice to math and engineering communities
20:51:25 [ivan]
s/@ Design/Neil Soiffer Design/
20:51:25 [karen]
...Safari put it in even with security issues
20:51:32 [karen]
...issue is not evil and they hate math
20:51:39 [karen]
...but more that nobody cared
20:51:43 [karen]
...I believe as a community
20:51:44 [ivan]
s/@:/ Neil Soiffer:/
20:51:56 [karen]
...publishing community needs to step up and say this is important
20:52:00 [karen]
...and make it a priority
20:52:05 [karen]
...someone needs to take responsibility
20:52:15 [karen] one wants to step up and make sure it's there
20:52:20 [karen]
...It's really a disservice
20:52:31 [karen]
...hope anyone in this group can help with that
20:52:44 [karen]
HL: A colleague has identified a subset of MathML
20:52:49 [karen]
...and then attach a style sheet
20:52:54 [karen]
...I have not tried it
20:53:06 [karen]
Neil: I was in original MathML but it's not there yet
20:53:16 [karen]
...@ takes huges advantage of CSS
20:53:21 [karen]
...maybe redo some of those
20:53:26 [karen]
...not looking at take this small thing
20:53:31 [karen]
...giant Javascript library
20:53:40 [karen]
...have to download all sorts of fonts
20:53:55 [karen]
Murray Maloney: I have been aware of the math problem since the mid-90s
20:54:06 [karen]
...multiple math societies complainted
20:54:18 [karen]
...Many people in community have recognized this problem and have put effort into it
20:54:24 [karen]
...@ Did the work on his own
20:54:25 [larsw]
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20:54:27 [karen] compensation
20:54:35 [karen]
...he wants one language as the one true language
20:54:42 [karen] the only one that is not supported properly on the web
20:54:51 [karen]
...any time he went to somebody to get this code activity
20:54:58 [karen]
...Seems there is always somebody smarter than you
20:55:06 [karen]
...they think about it and it never gets done
20:55:09 [karen]
...MathML work is done
20:55:22 [karen]
...publishers should feel confident in their ability to publish math but they cannot
20:55:27 [karen]
...reminds me of problem with HTML5
20:55:40 [karen]
...when HTML5 WG would not recognize things that were not out on the web
20:55:52 [karen] the fact that publishers were using something within their walled gardens
20:55:55 [karen]
...that did not count
20:56:01 [karen] all the years I have worked in standards
20:56:05 [karen] that publishers never step up
20:56:11 [karen] need to get somebody in the room
20:56:19 [karen]
...and you need to start putting more content out on the web
20:56:26 [karen] the people who develop these tools
20:56:35 [karen]
...can see that publishers use the b and the itag
20:56:43 [karen]
...people who work with you say it's the right thing to do
20:56:48 [karen]
...but browsers don't help
20:56:57 [karen]
...get a membership in W3C and start screaming bloody murder
20:57:10 [karen]
...if you don't, it's going to be programmers who don't know anything about publishing
20:57:13 [karen]
20:57:21 [karen]
Liam: I have to follow Murray
20:57:25 [karen]
...a quick comment
20:57:33 [karen]
...This discussion of how we change things
20:57:37 [karen]
...that is what this workshop is for
20:57:42 [karen]'s to figure out how to change things
20:57:49 [karen]
...ask everyone to hold in your hearts
20:57:56 [karen] notice all these things that need to be changed and why
20:58:02 [karen]
...and think about how we can make changes
20:58:07 [karen] some of the things we have heard
20:58:17 [maria]
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20:58:17 [karen]
...getting MathML into Chrome; where are the test cases
20:58:24 [karen] do we get test cases to rec
20:58:29 [karen]
...not one asnwer to everything
20:58:33 [karen]
...more use cases, more examples
20:58:45 [karen]
...Keep in mind please, how can we change the future [applause]
20:58:48 [karen]
Alan: Last question
20:58:51 [karen]
...before the break
20:59:02 [karen]
Thierry: break for 30 minutes at back of room
20:59:12 [karen]
...I would like to thank Daniel and Karen for scribing
20:59:24 [karen]
...please see me or Karen and volunteer for the next session
20:59:29 [karen]
...Also, if you want to do demos
20:59:34 [karen]
...we have round tables during the break
20:59:36 [danielweck]
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20:59:39 [karen] feel free to use them
20:59:44 [karen]
...We will reconvene at 4:30pm
20:59:49 [karen]
rrsagent, make minutes
20:59:49 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate karen
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21:34:30 [karen]
scribenick: Karl Dubost
21:34:37 [karl]
Topic: 16:30-18:00 Session 2: OWP and EPUB/eBooks
21:34:47 [karl]
scribenick: karl
21:35:13 [karl]
glazou: (introduction of the good and bad of ePub)
21:35:46 [karl]
... I implemented epub2 and epub3.
21:35:49 [Takeshi]
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21:36:13 [karl]
... I'm not pointing fingers, just talking about issues *we* have to solve.
21:37:20 [karl]
... (going through bgee requirements)
21:38:53 [karl]
... epub3 specs are based on several dialects. There are too many to deal with for being able to implement it.
21:39:11 [karl]
... we could decrease that number
21:39:34 [karl]
... There are also important changes between epub2 and epub3
21:40:09 [karl]
... Some drafts are considered as Recs, that's an issue. There was no unitary tests for epub.
21:40:18 [karl]
21:41:03 [davidwood]
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21:41:14 [karl]
... There are a lot of inconsistencies, unspecified parts, which need to be solved.
21:41:35 [karl]
... All implementers, authors, tutorials writers understand the spec and its meaning.
21:41:56 [Jaejeung]
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21:41:59 [karl]
... (normative references tables which are not normative.)
21:43:14 [karl]
... Some of the documents can evolve a lot, and so the references will not be valid anymore.
21:43:31 [karl]
... It makes it difficult to base your work on moving implementations.
21:43:44 [karl]
... Some ebooks will become irrelevant in a few months.
21:44:31 [karl]
... The very first thing you hit in an epub is a Manifest… but zip already contains a Manifest.
21:44:41 [danielweck]
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21:45:20 [karl]
... Is it useful to know the relationships between the files?
21:45:49 [karl]
... many things are already given from by the viewers engine and their api already.
21:46:35 [karl]
... Too many TOCs
21:46:41 [karl]
... We just need one.
21:47:26 [karl]
... Metadata in epu3 were a nightmare to implement.
21:47:41 [karl]
... the relationships in between the metadata are scary.
21:48:52 [karl]
... id/idref are too complex. It should not happened. It's very bad for UI. People do not understand them.
21:49:20 [Takeshi]
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21:49:45 [karl]
... Heavy usage of namespaces make the documents bloated.
21:50:50 [karl]
... 1000 pages are opened in a few seconds. It's not needed to have namespaces.
21:51:31 [karl]
... URI management in epub is a proof of the devil
21:51:50 [karl]
... complex management of property vocabularies.
21:52:12 [karl]
... "We may remove the prefix in the future"
21:52:30 [karl]
... but it's not specified what you should do once the prefix is removed.
21:52:31 [eric]
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21:53:18 [karl]
... Compatibility between epub versions is a myth.
21:53:51 [karl]
... content documents: no default rendering.
21:54:11 [maria]
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21:54:15 [karl]
... epub3 refers to html5 which is still in work in progress.
21:54:27 [karl]
... extra schema for html5 that editing tools don't use.
21:54:50 [karl]
... is epub:trigger needed? There's an implementation cost with it.
21:55:42 [karl]
... AltStyleTags meaningful link classes. No notifications to the CSS WG. It reduces the space of class.
21:56:13 [karl]
... CSS profile based on WDs which are not stable.
21:56:31 [karl]
... epub should be only a packaging format with Web standards only.
21:57:19 [karl]
... Should use only html5, allow both serializations?
21:57:51 [danielweck]
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21:59:17 [karl]
... Some decisions in the spec lead to bad UI requirements.
22:00:24 [karl]
... We have in the W3C to listen the publishing platform, but we need to do a few things before HTML5 Rec, CSS regions, Archive API for zips, etc.
22:00:54 [karl]
... BUT we need the participation of the publishing industry.
22:01:25 [karl]
... Get rid of proprietary XML dialects, and Epub core model and tests, tests, tests, …
22:02:05 [fjh]
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22:02:41 [karl]
Soochoi: Soo Choi, epub production department at Harpers Collins
22:02:41 [jdovey]
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22:02:56 [mgylling]
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22:03:00 [karl]
... Reaching the same screen in the digital landscape.
22:03:25 [karl]
... Retailers specific formats are coming back.
22:03:36 [karl]
... "Enhanced ebook"
22:04:11 [karl]
... (in house workflows for the print graph)
22:05:20 [karl]
... Print files are converted to ebooks
22:06:23 [karl]
... ISBN assignment are part of the issue. Every file format requires a unique format.
22:07:11 [karl]
... It has been very difficult to support the different devices.
22:07:33 [karl]
... sometimes the retailers are having their own features and they do not tell in advance what will they support.
22:08:23 [karl]
... There should be an enforcement of epub3 by govs, or organizations.
22:09:05 [karl]
... (Proposal for a limited subset of specs)
22:10:07 [karl]
... We need a consistent and positive experience between the author and the reader
22:11:10 [karen]
Dave Cramer, Hachette
22:11:31 [karl]
cramer: we want more robust ebooks.
22:11:46 [karl]
... case study L.A. Noire
22:11:50 [danielweck]
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22:12:01 [karl]
... some viewers render things very differently even the simpler thing
22:12:52 [karl]
... some fonts are used very specifically for the mood of the book. Monospaced font was not possible to use on ibooks until we found a hack.
22:13:11 [karl]
... We want users to have the option to see it as designed.
22:13:50 [karl]
... We do not know which reading system our books is on.
22:14:02 [karl]
... web developers use UA string.
22:14:17 [karl]
... mediaqueries are useful if it was not crashing
22:14:40 [karl]
... @support would be useful if it was implemented.
22:15:09 [karl]
... For interactivity the spec is quite light.
22:15:41 [karl]
... epub2 was defined for things working in theory but not in practice.
22:16:21 [karl]
... epubpreflight for checking what is supported.
22:18:10 [karl]
marriott: from Monash University
22:18:41 [karl]
... standards should not be only static. We are designing for the future too.
22:19:18 [karl]
... What are the opportunities for the future?
22:19:42 [Judy]
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22:21:02 [karl]
... we want to have interactive and dynamic contents.
22:21:14 [karl]
... we want things to be immersive to be able to live the contents.
22:21:24 [karl]
... we want to be able to customize the content.
22:21:44 [karl]
... including collaborative and continuous authoring.
22:22:03 [karl]
... Multiple devices and accessibility.
22:24:19 [karl]
... (summary of the automatic document layout discussed at ACM on document engineering)
22:25:21 [karl]
... There are things which are already available in CSS, but not everything.
22:25:51 [karl]
... (mentioning things like pdftex, indesign, tex, vdp, etc.)
22:28:17 [karl]
... accessible graphic, haptic feedback. We need content and a standard for it.
22:28:36 [karl]
... When making standards, we need to think about the future.
22:28:39 [danielweck]
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22:29:09 [danielweck]
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22:31:16 [karl]
glushko: Robert J. Glushko, Berkeley - Bridging the Gap between ebook readers and browsers
22:32:26 [karl]
... collaborative teaching with a multidisciplinary textbook
22:32:31 [danielweck]
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22:33:03 [karl]
... We can imagine a networked discoverable books with transcluded content.
22:33:14 [karl]
... It requires to think about books differently
22:33:39 [karl]
... a book can not be only on the Web, they should be of the Web.
22:33:53 [karl]
... We want books are native Web fabrics.
22:34:11 [karl]
... We want to be able to have Web books which are Web things.
22:35:17 [karl]
... Ebooks should be a first class Web citizen.
22:35:23 [karl]
... It should be linkable.
22:36:15 [karl]
... It should not be publisher centric.
22:36:56 [karl]
... How do we store content is an issue. There should be a browser agnostic system, where we can identify things with URI.
22:38:17 [karl]
... we want to be able to cache the content, manipulate it, modify it and have sync from the client to the server and so on.
22:38:36 [karl]
... There should be a browser export/import format.
22:39:27 [karl]
22:39:35 [karen]
Murray Maloney
22:39:49 [karl]
murray: I was surprised by your comment on id/idrefs
22:40:09 [karl]
... first class links, How do we point things?
22:40:25 [karl]
glazou: we need linking mechanism and counting mechanism.
22:40:43 [karl]
... things right now are working inside one document, not across documents.
22:40:59 [karl]
... How do we do it? And how do we make it happen right now?
22:41:18 [danielweck]
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22:41:20 [erikmannens]
rrsagent, make minutes
22:41:20 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate erikmannens
22:41:26 [karen]
Mia Amato, Skyhorse Publishing
22:41:56 [karl]
mia: How do we plan to handle QA in between retailers and different devices?
22:42:16 [maria]
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22:42:25 [karl]
soochoi: There are multiple rounds of QA involved on different devices. There is technical QA.
22:42:33 [karl]
mia: editorial are involved?
22:42:37 [karl]
soochoi: yes
22:43:35 [karl]
nick AAAAA: we talk about advanced features, but even on the basic features there are a lot of issues.
22:43:56 [karl]
... without the kindle, we are not making money. So we need to be compatible with them.
22:44:00 [karen]
Nick @ Rufolo
22:44:08 [karl]
... How do we put pressure on them?
22:44:22 [karl]
s/AAAAA/@ Rufolo/
22:44:44 [karl]
cramer: I'm very pessimistic about Amazon changing things.
22:44:57 [karl]
... It's sad.
22:45:33 [karen]
Frederick Hirsch, Nokia
22:45:41 [karl]
glushko: textbooks are not likely to go to kindle more than other things.
22:46:40 [karl]
mccoy (hirsch too): What is the roadmap
22:46:52 [karl]
mccoy: It's why we are here today.
22:47:29 [karl]
… The full power of the Web platform has to be in books. We do not know yet how to monetize it.
22:47:53 [karl]
BBBB: We heard about content cache, appcache
22:47:58 [karen]
Anderson, Los Alamos National Labs
22:48:17 [karen]
s/Anderson/Robert Sanderson
22:48:19 [karl]
... Could you share how annotations should be carried on in books.
22:48:35 [ivan]
s/s/BBBB/Robert Sanderson/
22:49:11 [ivan]
s/BBBB/Robert Sanderson/
22:49:12 [karl]
glushko: My books are designed to evolve. Publishers think in release once and for all.
22:49:45 [karl]
... The system don't work this way. It's sad. We can't do continuous annotation.
22:50:14 [karen]
David Cramer, Hachette
22:50:46 [karl]
Scribenick: karen
22:50:56 [karen]'s complicated thing, I don't have a good answer
22:51:09 [karen]
Robert Sanderson: Daniel, can you weigh in on this
22:51:17 [karen]
...helping the reader or publisher or somehwere in between
22:51:21 [karen] add content to the ebook
22:51:27 [karen]
...and how that might work with an extended API
22:51:31 [karen]
Glazou: content is not a problem
22:51:37 [karen]
...content and distributing it is a problem
22:51:48 [karen]
...all the repository owners of documents have applications
22:51:56 [karen]
...they know how to distribute a new version of an app
22:52:04 [karen]
...should know how to distribute a document
22:52:12 [karen]'s not server side, it's on client side
22:52:17 [karen], you need a dif
22:52:22 [fjh]
my question was (a) given the concerns with ePub is deployment happening and is there a roadmap to fix issues
22:52:23 [karen]
...this is something a bit @
22:52:36 [karen]
...on annotations, likely need a linking mechanism between packages
22:52:42 [fjh]
and (b) what is the deployment situation for education and textbooks (given need for interactivity etc)
22:52:44 [karen]
...if you download one package, you need a link
22:52:48 [karen]
...whether it's free or not
22:52:57 [karen]
...renderer gets data from two different channels
22:53:01 [karen]
...that is likely the right way to do it
22:53:08 [karen]
Neil, design science
22:53:18 [karen]
...No representatives from Apple or Amazon
22:53:26 [karen]
...a challenge, where are the publishers
22:53:35 [karen]
...and where are the implementers to do the standards
22:53:40 [karen]
...I know this has been a problem
22:53:46 [karen]
...this is a pretty critical situation
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22:53:59 [karen]
David C: Apple has participated to some extent in the ePub work
22:54:09 [karen]
...expect they are under interesting contraints from their management
22:54:13 [karen]
...I have no idea what goes on
22:54:23 [tmichel]
rrsagent, make minutes
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I have made the request to generate tmichel
22:54:30 [karen]
...Amazon has had no participation as far as I know
22:54:36 [karen]
...feel that they don't need to talk to us
22:54:41 [karen]
...'If you build it they will come'
22:54:59 [karen]
Karen: we had a non-response from Amazon outreach for this workshop
22:55:11 [karen]
Glazou: we met last week in Tuscon for CSS F2F
22:55:15 [karen]
...and Apple was there
22:55:25 [karen]
...but some of their own features we would like them to submit, we did not see
22:55:32 [karen]
...Apple has a way of doing things that belongs to Apple
22:55:38 [karen]
...and they don't have the right to speak at conferences
22:55:51 [karen]
...unless they are allowed on the conference basis
22:55:54 [karen]
...what can I say?
22:56:02 [karen]
Markus: In terms of bashing companies not present
22:56:14 [karen]
...Apple has been one of the earliest implementers of ePub3
22:56:23 [karen]
...they are certainly a good citizen in the ecosystem
22:56:27 [karen]
...everything is relative
22:56:32 [karen]
David: I would agree with that statement
22:56:41 [karen]
Karl Dubost: We talked about a lot of issues for publishers
22:56:45 [karen]
...but also issues for readerse
22:56:48 [karen]
...I am a big reader
22:56:58 [karen]
...I can put an image, notes, annotation into my books
22:57:03 [karen]
...I may put two books side by side
22:57:10 [karen]
...these are things missing in the ebooks ecosytems
22:57:18 [karen]
...cannot make notes between two books
22:57:26 [karen]
...I'd like to have a wiki book approach
22:57:30 [karen]
...and edit content inside the book
22:57:35 [karen]
...plenty of things we cannot do right now
22:57:44 [karen]
...where it's a failure to the print platform
22:57:53 [karen]
RobertG: any book with a URI can do this
22:58:02 [karen]
Glazou: if a book has no URI, not fragments
22:58:05 [karen]
scribenick: Karl
22:58:26 [karl]
ccc: in terms of annotations, there will be more talk about it tomorrow
22:58:37 [glazou]
glazou: nevermind, my bad
22:58:59 [fjh]
22:59:02 [karl]
ccc: we want to speed up the process.
22:59:16 [karl]
ddd, Google: I just want to clarify something.
22:59:43 [karl]
... It was not just a liaison. It was a recommendation of the css wg.
22:59:50 [karl]
glazou: no
23:00:14 [karl]
ddd: Maybe there was misunderstanding, but there was discussion made at the css wg.
23:00:27 [karl]
... search for alternate stylesheets.
23:00:53 [karen]
Peter Krautzberger
23:00:56 [karl]
eee: One of the key issues seems to be to get the reading systems out of the way
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23:01:51 [karl]
krautzberger: It should not be only implemented but also overrided.
23:02:17 [karl]
cramer: Something it depends on the constraints that devs have seen in the wild.
23:04:00 [karl]
glazou: you can't really. The issue is that there are competitive advantage in between readers.
23:04:32 [karl]
cramer: It's a battle in between two paradigms.
23:04:52 [karl]
glazou: the vendor can infer many things about your reading habits.
23:05:01 [karl]
... these data are sold.
23:05:27 [karl]
... all vendors want to keep readers to have access to these data.
23:06:13 [karl]
Topic: Conclusion for today.
23:06:29 [karl]
tmichel: we reconvene tomorrow at 8:30
23:06:57 [karen]
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I have made the request to generate karen
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