18:35:29 <RRSAgent> RRSAgent has joined #ebooks
18:35:29 <RRSAgent> logging to http://www.w3.org/2013/02/11-ebooks-irc
18:35:39 <glazou> who's scribing
18:35:42 <karl> RRSAgent, make logs public
18:35:57 <glazou> ScribeNick: glazou
18:36:14 <glazou> thierry: (introducing workshop committee)
18:36:28 <glazou> … thanks to Marcus and Angela for all hard work and organization
18:36:30 <JJ> JJ has joined #ebooks
18:36:40 <glazou> … we have also 19 experts in program committee
18:36:49 <glazou> … thanks for their hard work reviewing all papers
18:36:53 <karl> Meeting: W3C ebook Workshop in NYC
18:36:57 <glazou> … finally thanks W3C colleagues
18:37:20 <glazou> … for experience, advice ; Karen for all logistics aspects and Maria at the registration/admin
18:37:27 <glazou> … a few words about submissions
18:37:38 <glazou> … we got 43 submission papers that covered many topics
18:37:45 <glazou> … presentation, metadata, DRM, etc
18:37:48 <glazou> … we reviewed all
18:37:51 <gcapiel> gcapiel has joined #ebooks
18:37:54 <glazou> … and we built agenda from there
18:38:04 <glazou> … unable to accomodate everyone because too many papers submitted
18:38:23 <glazou> … great interest in all the papers but need to have a subset to fit the 1.5 day schedule
18:38:34 <plh-ebook> plh-ebook has joined #ebooks
18:38:36 <glazou> … we have 90 attendees representing all sectors of ebook industry
18:38:55 <glazou> … readers, publishers, SW, distributors, libraries, search engines, A11Y, etc.
18:38:56 <JJ> JJ has left #ebooks
18:39:10 <glazou> … participation is also a success because all ey players are here
18:39:19 <glazou> … (shows companies attending on screen)
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18:39:34 <glazou> … particpation is also international, 13 countries, 4 continents
18:39:49 <glazou> … will allow to address int'l issues related to ebooks
18:39:53 <glazou> … About highlights
18:40:10 <glazou> … the event is divided in 5 sessions, 1 session per topic domain
18:40:19 <glazou> … (lists all sessions, see agenda)
18:40:23 <TomDN> TomDN has joined #ebooks
18:40:30 <glazou> … Also a couple of keynotes
18:40:32 <gluejar> gluejar has joined #ebooks
18:40:50 <glazou> … we want this wkshp interactive so please participate
18:41:00 <glazou> … we have then scheduled a lot of slots for discussions and feedback
18:41:08 <glazou> … and also a wrap-up session
18:41:08 <gluejar> using #w3cebook on twitter
18:41:24 <glazou> … "lead the ebook publishing to its full potential"'
18:41:31 <glazou> … share info and expertise
18:41:46 <glazou> … unlikely we'll solve all tech issues but at least we can discuss them
18:41:53 <glazou> … create new work items specific to ebooks
18:42:17 <glazou> … where and when to adress the tasks we will discuss: standard bodies or new WGs or or or
18:42:39 <TAC_NISO> TAC_NISO has joined #ebooks
18:42:41 <glazou> … Karen gave you wifi thingies, use IRC, the slides will be available on W3C site
18:42:53 <glazou> … there will be bkfst tomorrow, break today is 4-4:30
18:43:00 <glazou> … lunch not provided tomorrow by W3C
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18:43:17 <glazou> … all invited tomorrow evening to O'Reilly reception
18:43:35 <glazou> … thanks to all sponsors of the event: Pearson, Adobe, Google, Microsoft and O'Reilly
18:43:56 <glazou> … (my slides linked from agenda), thank you
18:44:06 <karl> Topic: Keynote - Extending W3C current work, collaboration with IDPF
18:44:08 <glazou> Karen: introducing Jeff Jaffe, W3C CEO
18:44:24 <glazou> … we have conti'd to grow under Jeff's leadership
18:44:31 <Eric_A> Eric_A has joined #Ebooks
18:44:42 <karl> s/Topic: Keynote - Extending W3C current work, collaboration with IDPF /Thierry's slides http://www.w3.org/2012/08/electronic-books/slides/S0-welcome/
18:44:54 <glazou> jeff: Thanks Karen and Thierry
18:45:03 <glazou> … let me be the 2nd to thank everyone
18:45:16 <glazou> … in particular the host, collaborators and and and
18:45:25 <glazou> … was asked to do 3 things
18:45:37 <glazou> … since we're diverse community, first I'll provide an intro about w3c
18:45:45 <glazou> … second, brief update on recent activities
18:46:03 <glazou> … for you W3C members, that's not news
18:46:08 <glazou> … but others need it
18:46:26 <glazou> … third, some thoughts about why w3c thinks it is important for us
18:46:33 <glazou> … w3c founded by TBL inventor of web
18:46:38 <glazou> … still director of w3c
18:46:48 <glazou> … simple and powerful mission, lead the web to full potential
18:46:55 <glazou> … good job done but more to do
18:46:56 <Valerie> Valerie has joined #ebooks
18:47:01 <glazou> … member-based organization
18:47:12 <glazou> … companies, research, academic, other standards bodies
18:47:21 <erikmannens> erikmannens has joined #ebooks
18:47:26 <glazou> … financial model comes from the largest companies called full members
18:47:33 <glazou> … all the big names you know
18:47:41 <glazou> … discussing with the whole ecosystem of the wbe
18:47:48 <tmichel> tmichel has joined #ebooks
18:48:06 <glazou> … professional staff to support tbl and the dialog with the industry, 70 on staff in 4 locations, latest host in China
18:48:31 <glazou> … our major goal is to define tech standards
18:48:35 <ArtB> ArtB has joined #ebooks
18:48:46 <glazou> … tbl did not want companies to innovate alone and create wall gardens
18:48:51 <glazou> … we then all work together
18:48:58 <glazou> … contribute innovations and keep it open
18:49:05 <glazou> … standards available to everybody
18:49:29 <glazou> … 4 tech domains in W3C: interaction, Ubiweb, a11y, tech and society
18:49:32 <glazou> … 45 WGs
18:49:44 <alexz> alexz has joined #ebooks
18:49:48 <glazou> … html 450 people in the WG, some other WG are much smaller
18:49:55 <glazou> … liaison with ?? other orgs
18:50:09 <tmichel> With 80 orgs
18:50:11 <glazou> … royalty-free patent policy is our marjor cornerstone
18:50:37 <glazou> … we ask members to make royalty)free commitments
18:50:51 <glazou> … it's more an int'l forum
18:51:02 <tzviya> tzviya has joined #ebooks
18:51:08 <glazou> … we have relationship with de jure standards bodies too
18:51:21 <glazou> … lately, we've been working on a collection of standards: open web platform
18:51:24 <glazou> … many different techs
18:51:26 <glazou> … html5
18:51:42 <glazou> … but also css, webapps for apis, fonts, device APIs, etc.
18:51:59 <glazou> … large contrast with what we had 15 years ago
18:52:03 <glazou> … rich interactivity
18:52:05 <glazou> … multimedia
18:52:08 <glazou> … graphics
18:52:09 <duga_> duga_ has joined #ebooks
18:52:17 <glazou> … verye exciting capabilities
18:52:29 <glazou> … interesting number of different devices
18:52:38 <glazou> … was difficult to browse the web from a phone
18:52:54 <glazou> … at CES everyone had a HTML5 set-top box
18:53:03 <glazou> … the web is now ubiquitous
18:53:19 <glazou> … making it work everywhere is a feature of the open web platform
18:53:31 <glazou> … core supporting role for the trends of the industry and society
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18:53:55 <glazou> … survey dopne over a year ago, how many developers using html5
18:54:00 <glazou> s/dopne/done
18:54:04 <glazou> … now 150% :-)
18:54:24 <glazou> … how many browsers will html5 in 2016: 2.1 billion
18:54:37 <glazou> … gartner surveyed tech
18:54:49 <glazou> … number 2 was mobile apps
18:54:50 <azaroth42> How do they know 2.1B? Ran out their 32 bits ;)
18:55:09 <glazou> … only the beginning
18:55:21 <glazou> … as we move to next step, impact on businesses is amazing
18:55:31 <glazou> … we talk to many people in indsutries
18:55:37 <glazou> … next-gen technology
18:55:49 <glazou> … business impact : opportunity for dialogs and business change
18:55:55 <glazou> … should not surprise us
18:56:04 <eric> eric has joined #ebooks
18:56:12 <tzviya> opporunity for businesses to change
18:56:13 <glazou> … looking back, the basic idea of the web transformed sharing of info and al
18:56:39 <glazou> jeff: what about publishing and the web?
18:56:42 <glazou> … not strangers
18:56:49 <glazou> … we publish web sites
18:56:58 <glazou> … the web is a really nice tool
18:57:05 <glazou> … introduced a new form of publishing
18:57:13 <glazou> … able to reach more people in some more open ways
18:57:33 <glazou> … when publishers needed add'l tools orgs created enhancements of what we're doing
18:57:41 <Takeshi> Takeshi has joined #ebooks
18:57:43 <glazou> … the web has democratized publishing
18:57:50 <mgylling> mgylling has joined #ebooks
18:57:51 <glazou> … every person is now a publiusher
18:58:13 <Jeff_Bell> Jeff_Bell has joined #ebooks
18:58:17 <glazou> … we reached conclusion we need a more complete robust dialog with publishing community
18:58:29 <glazou> … if we have a better dialog, we can make thinbgs happen better
18:58:38 <fjh> s/publiusher/publisher/
18:58:51 <glazou> … let's be at the front-line of publishing and web technology
18:59:05 <glazou> … I'll talk about it at TOC on wednesday
18:59:15 <glazou> … I'm going to listen and learn today and tomorrow
18:59:23 <glazou> … and will be your spokesperson at TOC
18:59:39 <glazou> … will just mention a few high-level thoughts
18:59:42 <glazou> … 4 categories for better dialog
18:59:48 <glazou> … first, styling on the web
18:59:57 <glazou> … nothing compared to classical publishing
19:00:01 <glazou> … we need to learn from that
19:00:27 <glazou> … second, more publishing will leverage the web
19:00:32 <glazou> thrid, distribution
19:00:43 <glazou> s/thrid/... third
19:00:51 <glazou> … fourth, the web is consumed differently
19:00:52 <ArtB> RRSAgent, make minutes
19:00:52 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2013/02/11-ebooks-minutes.html ArtB
19:01:01 <glazou> … that will change everything
19:01:22 <glazou> jeff: that's all I had to say
19:01:33 <glazou> … at the end of day, we discuss transforming businesses
19:01:42 <glazou> … remember this is just the 1st meeting of that kind
19:01:46 <glazou> … lots more conversation
19:01:49 <glazou> … thank you
19:02:20 <glazou> karen: introducing Bill McCoy, CEO IDPF
19:02:22 <karl> Topic: Keynote - Extending W3C current work, collaboration with IDPF
19:02:22 <abole> abole has joined #ebooks
19:02:42 <glazou> bill: thank you Karen and Jeff
19:02:57 <glazou> … thank you all very much
19:03:06 <glazou> … a priviledge to be here and make this happen
19:03:15 <glazou> … w3c process for wkshops is pretty selective
19:03:24 <glazou> … so thanks all of you
19:03:43 <glazou> … many of us here may realize a hashtag is a subchannel of IRC
19:04:07 <glazou> … #w3cebook is the hastag
19:04:13 <glazou> s/hastag/hashtag
19:04:26 <glazou> bill: warm-up presentation
19:04:34 <glazou> … I'll be little controversial
19:04:48 <davidwood> davidwood has joined #ebooks
19:05:02 <glazou> bill: a word about IDPF
19:05:11 <glazou> … 2/3rds of you are IDPF members
19:05:14 <glazou> … 350 members
19:05:19 <glazou> … all parts of the value chain
19:05:28 <glazou> … (lists)
19:05:47 <glazou> … mission is to foster an open ecosystem  for digital publishing
19:05:51 <glazou> … develop epub format
19:05:55 <glazou> … dozen years
19:06:03 <glazou> … one piece only of the big picture
19:06:08 <glazou> … epub widely adopted for ebooks
19:06:24 <glazou> … many ebook retailers distribute epub to consumers
19:06:35 <glazou> … interchange format too
19:06:46 <glazou> … conversion from epub to local format
19:06:51 <glazou> … also database format
19:06:57 <smyles> smyles has joined #ebooks
19:06:59 <glazou> s/database/delivery
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19:07:10 <glazou> jeff: needs to extend html to the future
19:07:26 <glazou> … 2 years ago, kickoff meeting of epub3 in NYC
19:07:50 <glazou> … (digression about Marriott Marquis lobby)
19:07:54 <glazou> … charter for epub3
19:08:00 <glazou> … two distinct paths
19:08:09 <glazou> … xml schema
19:08:15 <glazou> … or build on the web
19:08:23 <glazou> … at that time html5 support was minority
19:08:23 <mgylling> s/Marriott Marquis/Random House
19:08:44 <glazou> … adopting all of html5 would mean browser was required
19:08:50 <glazou> … consensus reached eventually
19:09:06 <glazou> … even Norman Walsch agreed
19:09:15 <glazou> … 3 years later, still dealing with consequences
19:09:19 <karl> s/Walsch/Walsh/
19:09:21 <glazou> … was a brain transplant
19:09:28 <glazou> … still parts difficult to deal with
19:09:39 <glazou> … the publishing industry does not exist ina  vacuum
19:09:46 <glazou> … one click away from the web
19:09:56 <glazou> … we cannot reinvent the wheel
19:10:00 <gluejar> @glazou, will the IRC channel logs be openly available?
19:10:04 <glazou> … building on the web was a no-brainer
19:10:21 <glazou> … if you look at the last 20+ years, 3 ways to deliver digital contents
19:10:47 <glazou> … download files or apps ?
19:10:53 <glazou> … not a topic for the next two days
19:10:59 <glazou> … all valid ways to distribute contents
19:11:05 <glazou> … depends on what consumer need
19:11:13 <glazou> … sometimes one, sometimes the other
19:11:20 <glazou> … we reinventing what we call books and magazines
19:11:34 <glazou> … no need to argue about files#apps#...
19:11:34 <plh-ebook> s/jeff:/bill:/
19:11:38 <glazou> thanks plh-ebook
19:11:50 <glazou> bill: browser interface is what users see
19:11:55 <glazou> … we're at the very beginning
19:12:17 <glazou> … consumers are spending more time in apps and less in files
19:12:24 <glazou> … controversial perhaps
19:12:32 <glazou> … but not aguing against the open web platform
19:12:45 <glazou> … web technologies are becoming common place
19:12:52 <glazou> … so we're on the verge of success
19:13:04 <glazou> … reusing tools and components across all modes of creation and distirbution
19:13:09 <glazou> … a universal platform
19:13:13 <glazou> … the web platform
19:13:16 <glazou> … not done yet
19:13:29 <glazou> … we're also near failure
19:13:57 <glazou> … not surprising
19:14:07 <glazou> … the big risk is fragmentation
19:14:17 <glazou> … look at webapps, many systems
19:14:26 <glazou> … fragmentation already there in webapps
19:14:42 <glazou> … in publishing we have our own suspects
19:14:46 <glazou> … all html5-based
19:14:51 <glazou> … but non interoperable
19:15:03 <glazou> … many will support epub3 but no every feature
19:15:09 <glazou> … so browser wars still alive and well
19:15:18 <glazou> … of course, all propose proprietary extensions
19:15:35 <glazou> … (digression about Adobe stealing from Xerox :-) )
19:15:46 <glazou> … extract all the value from open standards
19:15:53 <glazou> … taking advantage of it
19:16:06 <glazou> … bootstrap your own proprietary platform
19:16:23 <glazou> … shame on us as an open community if we let that happen
19:16:35 <glazou> … even worse is monopoly control by a single vendor
19:16:42 <glazou> … let's face it, we're almost here
19:16:58 <glazou> … what can we do about fragmentation?
19:17:09 <glazou> … 100 specs are used by us !
19:17:20 <glazou> … we don't even have an exact count of them
19:17:40 <glazou> … the open web platform is perceived as unrelated blocks of legos (shown on screen)
19:17:48 <glazou> … we need a better architecture
19:17:56 <glazou> … no enough vision
19:18:08 <glazou> … what specs comprise the platform? too many WGs ?
19:18:14 <glazou> … some WGs seems competitors
19:18:23 <glazou> … html5 did sucessfully kill Flash
19:18:34 <glazou> … but the open platform is not able to catch up yet
19:18:50 <glazou> … the browser market share is today better than it used to be because no monopoly
19:18:57 <glazou> … interoperable standards are here
19:19:04 <glazou> … lots of issues to work out still
19:19:14 <glazou> … 2 things we need to do, really:
19:19:21 <glazou> … first, collaborate much better
19:19:39 <glazou> … we're the bazaar not the cathedral
19:19:54 <glazou> … we cannot remain in isolation
19:20:14 <glazou> … browser vendors must NOT be the only ones dealing with the open web platform
19:20:28 <glazou> … minimizing religious disagreements about secondary details
19:20:48 <glazou> … (digression about Monty Python)
19:21:25 <glazou> … not pointing fingers at W3C, same thing about IPDF
19:21:40 <glazou> bill: we have responsability and we're not there yet
19:22:00 <glazou> … second, eliminit assumption that browsers are only to display web contents
19:22:11 <glazou> … the OWP has to make documents and apps first-class
19:22:20 <glazou> … everything can be served from the cloud
19:22:32 <glazou> … we don't really know what the future experience will be
19:22:43 <glazou> … we can also take a position here
19:23:03 <glazou> … we simply have to do it to create momentum
19:23:10 <glazou> … let's raise the bar of the OWP
19:23:17 <glazou> … the browser wars have shown
19:23:27 <glazou> … I'd like to see excellence
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19:23:48 <glazou> … question if the OWP should bother with requirements from commercial platforms
19:23:52 <Mike5> RRSAgent, make minutes
19:23:52 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2013/02/11-ebooks-minutes.html Mike5
19:24:11 <glazou> … does it matter if OWP is adopted by publishing and digital platforms?
19:24:33 <glazou> … still doubt if W3C membership has embraced the notion of publishing industry+web
19:24:44 <glazou> … going to be a win-win and we need to realize it
19:24:58 <glazou> … full adoption is going to be large across various industries
19:25:03 <davidwood> Can http://www.webplatform.org/ play a role?  Documentation of both the vision and how the components should fit together seems a possible direction to discourage fragmentation.
19:25:09 <glazou> … high-design content needed
19:25:26 <glazou> bill: interactivity and rich media
19:25:38 <glazou> … w3c does not speak of semantic web any more
19:25:46 <davidwood> BUT THEY SHOULD
19:25:46 <glazou> … learning material for education?
19:25:48 <davidwood> :)
19:26:05 <glazou> … semantic structure
19:26:09 <glazou> … files, apps, websites
19:26:15 <glazou> … multiple channels, interop
19:26:25 <glazou> … int'l, global languages
19:26:38 <glazou> … writing modes in CSS
19:26:55 <glazou> … publishers need to represent content on various shapes and sizes of screens
19:27:03 <glazou> … a11y is a critical focus
19:27:16 <glazou> … print disabled people must have access
19:27:22 <glazou> … we need user-friendly tools
19:27:35 <glazou> … democratizing the web cannot only for coders
19:27:41 <glazou> … (applause)
19:28:00 <glazou> … benefits of the focusing on OWP are both ways
19:28:15 <glazou> … it's not about publishing to raise the web, but vice-versa too
19:28:22 <glazou> … I'm optimistic we can succeed
19:28:31 <karl> karl has joined #ebooks
19:28:32 <glazou> … universal OWP for publishing and web sites
19:28:34 <davidwood> Structured semantics are legitimately important (IMO) for publishers because the alternatives include fragmented individual solutions, unstructured semantics like tags and disconnected semantics like microformats.
19:28:40 <glazou> … future of the web is up to all of you
19:28:45 <glazou> … let's make next two days count
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19:29:34 <karl> http://www.w3.org/2012/08/electronic-books/agenda.html#Session-1
19:29:55 <karl> Topic: 14:30-16:00 Session 1: Presentation (CSS, Fonts, etc.)
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19:32:07 <ivan> ivan has joined #ebooks
19:32:10 <tmichel> What we really need to minute is the discussions sessions.
19:32:26 <tzviya> where are the minutes?
19:32:34 <tmichel> For the talk we will publish the slides
19:32:46 <karen> karen has joined #ebooks
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19:32:56 <tmichel> But everyone is welcome to scribe during the presentation of course ;-)
19:32:58 <karen> HL: multicolor is CSS module
19:33:06 <karen> ...resizing this, you can reset width
19:33:14 <karen> ...number of columns changes dynamically
19:33:23 <karen> ...basically say my ideal wideth is 14m
19:33:26 <karen> ...one line of code
19:33:31 <karen> ...we have this nasty scroll bar
19:33:39 <karen> ...to read full article, you have to scroll up and down
19:33:42 <karen> ...not idea
19:33:46 <karen> ...so we added overflow page
19:33:56 <karen> ...if I were on a tablet, I would use my finger
19:34:03 <karen> ...this is one idea
19:34:09 <karen> ...the Romans changed the world of publishing
19:34:15 <karen> ...putting things on scrolls
19:34:27 <karen> ...another magic things that happens when I combine floats
19:34:30 <karen> ...with multicolumns
19:34:37 <karen> ...why image is on the right
19:34:43 <karen> ...also span two paragraphs
19:34:51 <karen> ...moving from 4-3 columns, something gives
19:34:54 <ivan> rrsagent, draft minutes
19:34:54 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2013/02/11-ebooks-minutes.html ivan
19:34:56 <karen> ...image moves to next page
19:35:02 <karen> ...don't have to write in detail, it happens normally
19:35:12 <karen> ...We want more pictures and flow things to bottom, top, corners
19:35:19 <karen> ...make elements span across all columns
19:35:25 <karen> ...you see where I am aiming with this layout
19:35:29 <karen> ...I replace those cats
19:35:36 <karen> ...replaced them with sheep
19:35:47 <karen> ...We don't know what The Guardian designer would have done
19:35:54 <karen> ...this is all being done dynamically in front of you
19:35:58 <karen> ...See the byline, second colunn
19:36:02 <karen> ...It was hard to do
19:36:08 <karen> ...pushed things aside a bit
19:36:12 <karen> ...That's newspaper example
19:36:18 <karen> ...this can also be done for magazines
19:36:26 <karen> ...we can combine this with what we have in CSS
19:36:35 <karen> ...the rotation, text shadows...still page layout
19:36:39 <karen> ...and only ten lines of code
19:36:47 <karen> ...Another interesting example is dictionaries
19:36:53 <karen> ...many have text and images intertwined
19:36:57 <karen> ...As I resize this
19:37:01 <karen> ...the images make up white areas
19:37:06 <karen> ...this image of Cato
19:37:11 <karen> ...white space
19:37:20 <karen> ...so find a solution...such as all pages on top
19:37:23 <karen> ...but that doesn't work
19:37:33 <karen> ...still use float and multicolumn layout
19:37:36 <karen> ...but also use snap
19:37:46 <karen> ...so it moves to its natural position in the layout
19:37:57 <karen> ...this is very useful, especially in scientific publications
19:38:03 <karen> ...I end with an academic paper
19:38:10 <karen> ...This is a boring looking document
19:38:15 <karen> ...but it has an important byline
19:38:20 <karen> ...has been impossible to do on the web
19:38:28 <karen> ...as I reformat for different screens, it changes
19:38:34 <karen> ...I want it to be on bottom and in page mode
19:38:36 <karen> ...There we are
19:38:41 <karen> ...let me summarize briefly
19:38:44 <karen> ...In ten lines of code
19:38:53 <karen> ...I can replicate 90 percent of publications
19:39:00 <karen> ...clean HTML, responsive design
19:39:06 <karen> ...number of columns changes from tablet to mobile
19:39:09 <karen> ...this works out the box
19:39:17 <karen> ...Think we should have run-arounds
19:39:21 <karen> ...and synchronization with baselines
19:39:23 <karen> ...don't have those
19:39:30 <karen> ...and select independent colors and pages
19:40:14 <jdovey> s/colors/columns/
19:40:15 <karen> Alan: Next speaker is Vlad Levantovsky, Monotype
19:40:39 <karen> Vlad: Monotype is a big organization everyone knows
19:40:56 <karen> ...I found it to be useful to start with newspapers similar to Hokum
19:41:04 <karen> ...see type
19:41:15 <karen> ...two and a half inches in size with eight different type faces
19:41:20 <karen> ...doesn't really help to convey information
19:41:25 <karen> ...Nothing really changes when you look at the web
19:41:33 <karen> ...as much type
19:41:41 <karen> ...Jeff mentioned in his keynote, everyone is a publisher
19:41:43 <karen> ...which is scarey
19:41:50 <karen> ...So I'm going to talk about professional publishers
19:41:57 <karen> ...not just what we say, but how we say
19:42:19 <karen> ...I'm sure you'd like 'Harvey Davidson' in swirley font
19:42:28 <karen> ...[a few other examples]
19:42:36 <karen> ...Type face gives your message trust and integrity
19:42:42 <karen> ...you can make it whisper or screan
19:42:49 <karen> [GoodYear example]
19:42:57 <karen> ...all these tricks can be accomplished today
19:43:03 <karen> ...Do we have web fonts? yes
19:43:09 <karen> ...Embedded fonts? yes
19:43:14 <karen> ...life is good; are we done?
19:43:17 <karen> ...Not really
19:43:38 <karen> ...Jan Tschhichold said, "Everything that counts in typography is...."
19:43:48 <karen> ...Screen typography is very different from paper
19:43:56 <karen> ...why it's different
19:44:06 <karen> ...Here is how I want my type to be seen on the screen page
19:44:24 <karen> ...when glyph outlines convert into pixels, it is blurry
19:44:31 <karen> ...apologize for highly visual nature
19:44:36 <karen> ...Quality of rendoring is big factor
19:44:40 <karen> ...that is not easy to control
19:44:44 <karen> ...those tyings are type features
19:44:49 <karen> ...when you look at print publications
19:45:01 <karen> ...today, most publishers use ligatures, numbering styles
19:45:14 <karen> ...tools that publishers get accustomed to using
19:45:24 <karen> ...Everything from the printing press will look identical
19:45:29 <karen> ...to their true, original design
19:45:36 <karen> ...with onscreen typography
19:45:47 <karen> ...publishers need to understand the underlying screen limitations
19:45:57 <karen> ...something that works well in print will not work on screen
19:46:04 <karen> ...Here is an example of incorrect type faces
19:46:11 <karen> [Mad Men example]
19:46:35 <karen> ...At Monotype we have been going through effort of converting popular book faces into ebook formats
19:46:47 <karen> ...shows changes of width, proportion, limitations of print display
19:47:02 <karen> ...We have been developing completely new breeds of type faces for onscreen and ebook display
19:47:08 <karen> ...Malabar is one such example
19:47:18 <karen> ...see this onscreen in the Nook reader from Barnes & Noble
19:47:22 <karen> ...gives crisp design
19:47:27 <karen> ...and is popular with ebook readers
19:47:32 <karen> ...That concludes my presentation
19:47:44 <karen> ...I wanted to outline the problems, mostly in the professional publishing world
19:47:52 <karen> ...We'll see more of them
19:47:55 <karen> ...We need to communicate
19:48:07 <karen> ...Publishers need to understand limitations of screen typopgraphy
19:48:16 <karen> ...and web needs to understand their needs
19:48:21 <karen> ...so we can accomplish both
19:48:30 <tmichel> rrsagent, draft minutes
19:48:30 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2013/02/11-ebooks-minutes.html tmichel
19:48:46 <karen> Jaejung Kim, KAIST
19:48:57 <tmichel> Enrichment of eBook User Interfaces: A Skeuomorphic Approach, Jaejeung Kim (Kaist)
19:49:00 <karen> s/Jaejeung
19:50:20 <kaz> rrsagent, draft minutes
19:50:20 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2013/02/11-ebooks-minutes.html kaz
19:50:46 <TomDN> TomDN has joined #ebooks
19:50:50 <glazou> ScribeNIck: karen
19:51:20 <kaz> s/Jaejung/Jaejeung/
19:51:46 <karen> rrsagent, make minutes
19:51:46 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2013/02/11-ebooks-minutes.html karen
19:51:57 <kaz> i/What we really need to minute is the discussions sessions/scribenick: karen/
19:51:59 <kaz> rrsagent, draft minutes
19:51:59 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2013/02/11-ebooks-minutes.html kaz
19:52:41 <karen> JK: I am a user experience researcher at KAIST
19:52:50 <karen> ...presentation is enrichment of user interfaces
19:52:58 <karen> ...Reading a book requires a good presentation
19:53:04 <karen> ...content layouts, font alignment
19:53:11 <karen> ...another perspective is well manipulation of pages
19:53:17 <karen> ...which requires a good user interface
19:53:28 <karen> ...how the content changes depending upon user input
19:53:33 <karen> ...Novels are mainly composed of text
19:53:39 <karen> ...we read line by line in sequential order
19:53:43 <TomDN> TomDN has joined #ebooks
19:53:43 <karen> ...this is formal reading
19:53:47 <karl> ebook prototype UI by KAIST http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rVyBwz1-AiE
19:53:58 <karen> ...Text books are composed of text, graphics...but not always in a sequence
19:54:03 <karen> ...jump to references
19:54:13 <karen> ...Newspapers and magazines are composed of all sorts of content
19:54:16 <karen> ...we read without order
19:54:22 <karen> ...so it's informal or casual reading
19:54:30 <karen> ...eBook content are more than just text
19:54:35 <karen> ...they are evolving to more interactive
19:54:40 <karen> ...this is what ePub is aiming for
19:54:51 <karen> ...it requires a more dynamic way of navigating through the content
19:54:58 <karen> ...We conducted research to search for answer
19:55:04 <karen> ...I will show you our design approach
19:55:17 <karen> ...focus was not just eye candy or photo realism
19:55:29 <karen> ...but to functionally contribute to the users' reading experience
19:55:40 <karen> ...to bring print reading functional to touch-screen device
19:55:47 <karen> ...Let me introduce you to two missing features
19:55:51 <karen> ...thumbing through pages
19:55:55 <karen> ...and temporal
19:55:59 <karen> @
19:56:12 <karen> ...our prototype is not based on any web technology
19:56:14 <ivan> s/temporal/temporal bookmarking/
19:56:19 <karen> ...Thumbing through is a four edge
19:56:26 <karen> ...highlight area is called the four edge
19:56:29 <karen> ...to thumb through
19:56:43 <karen> ...you are able to perceive overall structure and content in a few seconds
19:56:49 <karen> ...cannot use search
19:56:59 <karen> ...have to go through pages to find a picture without explicit data
19:57:11 <karen> ...use of this thumbing through was high in formal documents
19:57:17 <karen> ...four edge UI is rendered on side
19:57:20 <karen> ...touch dragging outward
19:57:28 <karen> ...flips pages very quickly, in a few seconds
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19:57:36 <karen> ...and user is freely able to turn pages in a book holding position
19:57:55 <karen> ...addtional role of this four edge gives a tactile cue of page location, amount of pages left...plays a huge role
19:58:03 <karen> ...also used to tag for location; a sort of bookmark
19:58:09 <karen> ...we applied this in the ebook in the four edge area
19:58:22 <karen> ...another feature was temporal bookmarking
19:58:28 <karen> ...frequently done in book reading tests
19:58:33 <karen> ...make a comparison among pages
19:58:49 <karen> ...or stay on current page and get content from going back/forth to other pages
19:58:53 <karen> ...use dragging gesture
19:59:01 <karen> ...on release either return or stay the remote page
19:59:05 <karen> ...Give you a demo
19:59:26 <karen> ...This is thumbing through; second is temporal bookmarking
19:59:34 <karen> ...compare pages and instantly return
19:59:48 <karen> ...This video has had more than 500K views on YouTube
19:59:59 <karen> ...Issues and requirements from Web perspective
20:00:02 <karen> ...If it goes to web
20:00:07 <karen> ...it requires a layout of the interface
20:00:14 <karen> ...and rendering of page stack behind the current view page
20:00:18 <karen> ...this cannot replace
20:00:20 <karen> ...the slider bar
20:00:25 <karen> ...to jump from page to page
20:00:33 <karen> ...requires an HTML5 cache control to load pages
20:00:44 <karen> ...also an API for placing additional features on four edge area
20:00:47 <karen> ...like bookmarking
20:00:59 <karen> ...and also flexible division of separate content on same page
20:01:12 <karen> ...I have my device and you are welcome to try it hands-on later on
20:01:41 <glazou> ScribeNick: glazou
20:01:57 <glazou> stearns: introduces himself
20:02:07 <glazou> … "Web versus eBooks"
20:02:14 <glazou> … relatively new to both domains
20:02:21 <glazou> … been working on CSS standards last two years
20:02:27 <glazou> … epub features in CSS
20:02:33 <glazou> … what epub needed for adaptive layout
20:02:47 <glazou> … will detail my impressions
20:02:50 <eric> eric has joined #ebooks
20:02:58 <glazou> … great thing to see epub3 based on html5
20:03:00 <glazou> … and the OWP
20:03:12 <glazou> … the web ecosystem is so much larger than the one we have for ebooks
20:03:25 <glazou> … it's going thru the transition now
20:03:40 <glazou> … more widespread authoring skills
20:03:49 <glazou> … Web+EPUB is then a good shift
20:04:03 <glazou> … but what I would like to see is the two techs working better together
20:04:12 <edas> edas has joined #ebooks
20:04:20 <glazou> stearns: where interests converge, we should find a single solution
20:04:34 <glazou> … where EPUB leads, improve the Web based on it
20:04:47 <glazou> … for instance the EPUB content document
20:05:04 <glazou> … we should work on it in the CSS WG looking at those requirements
20:05:20 <glazou> … where interests diverge, make the web extensible and use polyfills
20:05:44 <glazou> … the IDPF should create those polyfills
20:05:52 <glazou> … packaging is a convergence
20:05:59 <glazou> … offline apps and documents share a lot of things
20:06:06 <glazou> … would be an awful thing to see them diverge
20:06:24 <glazou> … we should work at converging them into a single baseline
20:06:47 <glazou> … the Content document for EPUB was leading the W3C standards and used prefixed CSS properties to do that
20:07:06 <glazou> … some people complained about WIP in CSS but I think it was fine
20:07:20 <glazou> … showing what they actually need
20:07:33 <liam> s/WIP/using prefixed properties from specs in progress/
20:07:38 <glazou> … once you have prefixed properties, you have to push ; IDPF has to push
20:07:50 <glazou> … to make W3C specs move along the REC track
20:08:05 <glazou> stearns: we should prioritize based on that
20:08:12 <glazou> … CSS TExt are crucial to EPUB
20:08:17 <glazou> … needed also for the OWP
20:08:24 <glazou> … still a Working Draft until last week
20:08:45 <glazou> stearns: CSS WG meeting last week about it
20:08:55 <glazou> … I'm guilty about keeping things late
20:09:06 <glazou> … Want to push EPUB things need
20:09:10 <glazou> … CSS 3 Speech
20:09:17 <glazou> … there epub properties about this
20:09:29 <glazou> … in CSS WG this ended up at the end of list of priorities
20:09:41 <glazou> … only the editor has been pushing this
20:09:45 <glazou> … so we need more participation from IDPF about this
20:09:59 <glazou> … it needs to go to LC and needs Test Suite
20:10:13 <glazou> … this particular lags because of lack of interest
20:10:23 <glazou> stearns: that's one point of collaboration we can do
20:10:28 <glazou> … CSS specs needs test suites
20:10:34 <glazou> … and love more generally
20:10:42 <glazou> … IDPF could contribute producing them
20:10:56 <glazou> … naive understanding is that IDPF has not done that testing
20:11:02 <glazou> … there could be more
20:12:02 <glazou> … if there are EPUB tests we can go to, are this or that property available in EPUB readers?
20:12:13 <glazou> … each viewer is not required to support everything
20:12:22 <glazou> stearns: so different capabilities across readers
20:12:30 <glazou> … now, polyfills...
20:12:48 <glazou> … there are some things that could be added ontop of OWP to support EPUB features
20:12:53 <glazou> … for instance in JS
20:13:11 <glazou> … would help viewer development
20:13:28 <glazou> stearns: adaptive layout for instance, Adobe had a large JS library
20:13:37 <glazou> … not really the way you want to do a polyfill
20:13:48 <glazou> … smaller minimal chunks per feature
20:14:01 <glazou> … not a comprehensive, too large library
20:14:11 <glazou> … not everything can be polyfilled
20:14:21 <glazou> … things from håkon's demo for instance
20:14:57 <glazou> … some things should be prioritized in the OWP or made so they can be polyfilled
20:15:00 <eric> eric has joined #ebooks
20:15:27 <glazou> stearns: the CSS WG appears to me to come up with 80% solutions that are not extensible
20:15:35 <glazou> … hence dead ends
20:15:40 <glazou> … and then JS is needed
20:16:00 <glazou> … we should have extensibility points so an ecosystem like eBooks can build upon our stack
20:16:05 <glazou> … paginated views for instance
20:16:16 <glazou> … would be a terrible failure if we come up with different solutions
20:16:31 <glazou> … a bit about my own specs, Regions, Exclusions & Shapes, Page Templates
20:16:39 <glazou> .. all things about adaptive layout
20:16:48 <glazou> … find a good isolated feature for each piece
20:17:00 <glazou> … CSS features EPUB can build upon
20:17:24 <glazou> … I would like to see more collaboration and feedback about this
20:17:48 <glazou> … CSS Regions in particular has diverged from original intent, from what you see in EPUB
20:18:03 <glazou> … so complaining a bit : we need more collaboration
20:18:30 <glazou> … when I brought proposal to IDPF, I got silence and splitism
20:18:37 <glazou> … that attitude needs to change
20:18:48 <glazou> … there will always be changes in a standards process
20:18:54 <gluejar> gluejar has joined #ebooks
20:18:55 <glazou> … you just have to accept it and live with it
20:19:03 <glazou> … I'm not going to take more time
20:19:10 <glazou> … I want Q&A now
20:19:24 <glazou> … I want to raise the OWP to ebook standards
20:19:41 <glazou> … (applause)
20:20:11 <glazou> plh breaks the ice :-)
20:20:38 <glazou> karlpro: how many people know about polyfills and caniuse in the room? raise hands !
20:20:39 <tmichel> Karl Dubost
20:20:53 <glazou> people raise hands
20:20:55 <tmichel> Plyfill about 30 %
20:21:10 <glazou> stearns: polyfill 1/2, caniuse a bit less
20:21:18 <davidwood> s/Plyfill/Polyfill/
20:21:20 <glazou> stearns explains what they are
20:21:40 <tmichel> stearns explains Polyfill
20:22:38 <glazou> stearns explains caniuse
20:22:52 <tmichel> and also explains caniuse
20:22:55 <karl> http://caniuse.com/
20:23:06 <glazou> Ambica Desaraju (CourseSmart): 3 questions
20:23:15 <glazou> … could bindings be an example of polyfills ?
20:23:27 <glazou> … epub lists bindings as fallbacks for widgets the browser does not support
20:23:31 <glazou> … for example slideshow
20:23:49 <glazou> … bindings pulled out at run time
20:23:57 <glazou> stearns: you choose different JS ?
20:24:03 <glazou> stearns: then yes
20:24:13 <glazou> ambica: future of html5 appcache?
20:24:17 <glazou> all laugh
20:24:26 <glazou> plh: working on it
20:24:34 <glazou> … the appcache meachnism is broken right now
20:24:40 <glazou> … implemented but broken
20:24:55 <glazou> … meeting last week in london to find a new proposal
20:24:58 <glazou> … work being done
20:25:04 <glazou> … trying to find asolution
20:25:13 <glazou> ambica: are mobile devices considered too?
20:25:14 <glazou> plh: yes
20:25:49 <tmichel> rrsagent, draft minutes
20:25:49 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2013/02/11-ebooks-minutes.html tmichel
20:25:53 <glazou> stearns: documents and apps are all the same thing ; example of PhoneGap and polyfill model
20:26:19 <glazou> … whenever we build somthg into PhoneGap, we want that to become obsolete and polyfills the way to go
20:26:34 <glazou> ambica: howcome, you listed ten lines of coce
20:26:51 <glazou> … what about responsive design for mobile devices, CSS Media Queries for many devices
20:26:58 <glazou> howcome: there were no MQ in my examples
20:27:01 <glazou> … only multicol
20:27:25 <glazou> … when you hit the limit, you need the MQ but that's a last resort solution
20:27:32 <glazou> … we have a range here
20:27:46 <glazou> plh: Philippe Le Hégaret, W3C
20:27:53 <glazou> … thanks for bringing testing
20:28:01 <glazou> … had a meeting in SF about that
20:28:09 <glazou> … reps from mobile and non-mobile industry
20:28:17 <glazou> … all had a their own profile of OWP
20:28:25 <glazou> … they realized they share 90%
20:28:32 <glazou> … lots of common interest
20:28:47 <glazou> … if we're going to look at epub's profile, lots of common interest too
20:28:57 <glazou> … so contributing to testing to OWP
20:29:12 <tmichel> Kim Marriott
20:29:15 <glazou> Kim Marriott : CSS has come a long way
20:29:23 <glazou> … one of the things we miss in CSS
20:29:41 <glazou> … will it do everything for EPUB?
20:29:57 <glazou> howcome: yeah, people always ask me for boustrophedon
20:30:17 <glazou> stearns: I have a longer list than howcome
20:30:33 <glazou> howcome: I think we should not stop before Guthenberg's bible
20:30:44 <tmichel> Marky Gylling IDPF
20:30:48 <glazou> Marcus Gylling, IDPF: we have few efforts on testing
20:30:52 <glazou> … support grid
20:30:57 <glazou> … similar to caniuse
20:31:11 <glazou> … test suite on github
20:31:25 <glazou> ACTION mgylling post URL here
20:31:41 <glazou> mgylling: we should find ways to share testing platform
20:31:49 <glazou> stearns: we just had meeting 2 weeks ago about that
20:31:52 <glazou> … we can coordinate
20:31:57 <abole> This BISG EPUB 3 Support Grid is set to be updated later this month...then again in April 2013... http://www.bisg.org/what-we-do-16-152-epub-3-support-grid.php
20:32:01 <glazou> … about TTWF
20:32:11 <glazou> … will help to hear from IDPF and vice-versa
20:32:32 <glazou> stearns: Tobbie Langel, Facebook and now W3C fellow is now your contact
20:32:55 <glazou> Peter Krautzberger (Mathjax): polyfills are very interesting and we call for more collab
20:33:09 <glazou> … what can we do with mathml since we see no interest from browser vendors
20:33:21 <glazou> stearns: not familiar with MathML
20:33:28 <glazou> … what is the alternative?
20:33:31 <glazou> … images ?
20:33:40 <glazou> peter: we produce both and SVG output
20:33:59 <glazou> … we can do that only if you have mathml support
20:34:06 <glazou> … webkit has not a single developer about it
20:34:13 <glazou> … so how can you push a standards ?
20:34:37 <glazou> stearns: mathml is more complex than the example I have : balancing text
20:35:02 <glazou> … adobe developed a polyfill for it
20:35:37 <karen> Glazou: If I can comment
20:35:42 <karen> ...we have an example in the market
20:35:52 <karen> ...about a large difference between WebKit
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20:36:03 <karen> ...on Asian languages
20:36:11 <karen> ...only way to improve mark-up is to change it all
20:36:41 <karen> ...Gekko...
20:37:02 <karen> Kaz: Thank you for your great presentations
20:37:13 <karen> ...I was interested in Alan's presentation
20:37:17 <karen> ...ebooks services and devices
20:37:24 <karen> ...Opera had speech
20:37:26 <plinss> s/Gekko/Gecko/
20:37:33 <glazou> glazou: just use whatever rendering engine is available, that's going to introduce a shift in the market and other engines will respond
20:37:37 <karen> ...and speech API is implemented
20:37:43 <karen> ...W3C is working on speech capability
20:37:46 <karen> ...for web apps
20:37:51 <glazou> scribenick: karen
20:37:52 <duga> duga has joined #ebooks
20:37:55 <karen> ...ePub3 includes SML capability
20:38:06 <karen> ...wondering about what type of extensibility should be for eBooks?
20:38:14 <karen> ...is there anything specified; other options?
20:38:24 <danielweck> danielweck has joined #ebooks
20:38:27 <karen> HL: You want to find common solutions to problems without pollyfils
20:38:34 <karen> ...sometimes will fail when moving to other devices
20:38:41 <karen> ...want to identify the core problems
20:38:48 <karen> ...certainly speech and audio are high on the list
20:38:54 <karen> ...we did implement this with IBM
20:39:02 <karen> ...we found we had a crash bug in the code
20:39:11 <karen> ...and people had not noticed
20:39:22 <karen> Kaz: Do you have suggestions for speech interface, Alan?
20:39:33 <karen> Alan: I don't have enough experience to provide an informed opinion
20:39:42 <karen> ...anyone else who has experience in the audience
20:40:03 <karen> Gerard Capio, Benetech
20:40:14 <karen> GC: we use Chrome speech to text capability
20:40:19 <karen> ...which requires an extension
20:40:24 <karen> ...they have been working on working group
20:40:31 <karen> ...to put forward a speech API
20:40:42 <karen> ...expect they will implement a speech synthesis piece
20:40:50 <karen> ...may be available in Chrome without extensions
20:41:11 <karen> ...And seeing other browsers like Firefox using it; will try to show a demo tomorrow in my presentation
20:41:22 <karen> Mark Hakkinnen: Another part of speech is haptics
20:41:30 <karen> ...we have been experiment with this
20:41:36 <karen> ...help students be more accessible
20:41:41 <karen> ...and more engaged
20:41:45 <karen> ...We are testing this
20:41:49 <kawabata> kawabata has joined #ebooks
20:41:49 <karen> ...would like to see how this works
20:41:59 <karen> ...other technologies coming out such as haptics in CSS
20:42:02 <karen> ...any others?
20:42:05 <glazou> RRSAgent, draft minutes
20:42:05 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2013/02/11-ebooks-minutes.html glazou
20:42:09 <karen> Gerrard: I'll try to do a demo
20:42:12 <karen> Ivan Herman, W3C
20:42:21 <karen> IH: There is an underlying issue
20:42:26 <karen> ...not going into technical details
20:42:32 <karen> ...that comes up with all the discussions
20:42:46 <karen> ...that every decision is make on whether another browser is using something
20:42:55 <karen> ...W3C, like IDPF is a member organization
20:43:01 <karen> ...we work the members we get; those who are there
20:43:17 <karen> ...in that WG, if only the big browsers are present, then they will take the decision
20:43:20 <karen> ...that is the way it works
20:43:25 <karen> ...The only way to change that
20:43:33 <karen> ...is to have people who represent the users of OWP
20:43:35 <karen> ...like eBooks
20:43:40 <karen> ...not sure how we work that out
20:43:44 <karen> ...there is an underlying thing
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20:43:53 <karen> ...and I can imagine same for IDPF
20:44:03 <karen> ...we need the active presence and participation of the publishers
20:44:08 <kaz> s/Mark Hakkinnen/Markku Hakkinen/
20:44:08 <karen> ...to help turn the direction
20:44:13 <karen> ...might be a fight
20:44:16 <karen> ...with the browser vendors
20:44:25 <karen> ...What triggered me was something said about WebKit
20:44:26 <kaz> s/Gerard Capio/Gerardo Capio/
20:44:30 <karen> ...not having MathML
20:44:36 <karen> ...WebKit is a place to put code in
20:44:49 <karen> ...if there are communities that want MathML in WebKit, they need to add it
20:44:59 <karen> @@: @ has been doing the work for years
20:45:10 <karen> Ivan: Only an example
20:45:17 <karen> ...underlying issue is the same...be present please
20:45:24 <karen> ...have to work together on how to accomplish this
20:45:30 <karen> ...we have to find the mechanics for this
20:45:48 <karen> Alan: YOu can talk about being present in the room, or you can cast it as engagement [laughter]
20:46:00 <karen> @@: Work on accessibility with subtitles
20:46:11 <karen> ...some publishers want rich media
20:46:15 <karen> ...in multiple languages
20:46:21 <karen> ...without having their assets multiplied
20:46:32 <karen> ...I had my catch-all answer
20:46:35 <karen> ...We have to "engage"
20:46:40 <karen> ...maybe there is more information to give
20:46:57 <karen> Alan: I do know that there is a fight for the soul of sub-titling going on in W3C
20:46:58 <ivan> s/@@: @/Murray Malroney/ @/
20:47:03 <karen> ...VTT vs TTML
20:47:12 <karen> ...there may be a tipping point you can influence by joining now
20:47:20 <karen> Glazou: a point about collaboration
20:47:35 <karen> ...CSS Working Group designs specs but we are not the users
20:47:39 <karen> ...We had a big divergence
20:47:53 <karen> ...sometimes big arguments with the web designers
20:48:02 <karen> ...Brad @ is helping us do the right thing in CSS
20:48:07 <karen> ...for example if the grammar is bad
20:48:15 <karen> ...or not the best one for designers
20:48:19 <karen> ...you should do that, too
20:48:26 <karen> ...Your presence is absolutely needed
20:48:41 <karen> ...We all forget that most ePub viewers are based on two rendering engines
20:48:49 <karen> ...Another way to help is to contribute code
20:48:57 <karen> ...higher a developer, it's not that expensive
20:49:05 <karen> ...compared to the publishing industry
20:49:11 <karen> ...higher a developer
20:49:19 <karen> ...W3C develops software...like the Validator
20:49:24 <karen> ...it took years, do it
20:49:28 <karen> Alan: MathML is in WebKit
20:49:36 <karen> ...decision of Safari and Chrome whether to release it
20:49:39 <karen> Glazou: fork it
20:49:54 <karen> @ Design Science: I want to ask Vlad about fonts
20:50:03 <karen> ...what are we doing about making math fonts beautiful for the web
20:50:14 <karen> ...and make sure there are all the technical symbols and math symbols
20:50:19 <karen> Vlad: We are not doing enough
20:50:22 <karen> ...we should do more
20:50:32 <karen> ...One of the messages I wanted to get across
20:50:40 <karen> ...is to ask people what they need so we can work on them
20:50:46 <karen> ...So this question is important to us
20:50:54 <karen> ...not sure I can answer right now
20:51:18 <karen> @: MathML Drop by Chrome...was disservice to math and engineering communities
20:51:25 <ivan> s/@ Design/Neil Soiffer Design/
20:51:25 <karen> ...Safari put it in even with security issues
20:51:32 <karen> ...issue is not evil and they hate math
20:51:39 <karen> ...but more that nobody cared
20:51:43 <karen> ...I believe as a community
20:51:44 <ivan> s/@:/ Neil Soiffer:/
20:51:56 <karen> ...publishing community needs to step up and say this is important
20:52:00 <karen> ...and make it a priority
20:52:05 <karen> ...someone needs to take responsibility
20:52:15 <karen> ...no one wants to step up and make sure it's there
20:52:20 <karen> ...It's really a disservice
20:52:31 <karen> ...hope anyone in this group can help with that
20:52:44 <karen> HL: A colleague has identified a subset of MathML
20:52:49 <karen> ...and then attach a style sheet
20:52:54 <karen> ...I have not tried it
20:53:06 <karen> Neil: I was in original MathML but it's not there yet
20:53:16 <karen> ...@ takes huges advantage of CSS
20:53:21 <karen> ...maybe redo some of those
20:53:26 <karen> ...not looking at take this small thing
20:53:31 <karen> ...giant Javascript library
20:53:40 <karen> ...have to download all sorts of fonts
20:53:55 <karen> Murray Maloney: I have been aware of the math problem since the mid-90s
20:54:06 <karen> ...multiple math societies complainted
20:54:18 <karen> ...Many people in community have recognized this problem and have put effort into it
20:54:24 <karen> ...@ Did the work on his own
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20:54:27 <karen> ...no compensation
20:54:35 <karen> ...he wants one language as the one true language
20:54:42 <karen> ...as the only one that is not supported properly on the web
20:54:51 <karen> ...any time he went to somebody to get this code activity
20:54:58 <karen> ...Seems there is always somebody smarter than you
20:55:06 <karen> ...they think about it and it never gets done
20:55:09 <karen> ...MathML work is done
20:55:22 <karen> ...publishers should feel confident in their ability to publish math but they cannot
20:55:27 <karen> ...reminds me of problem with HTML5
20:55:40 <karen> ...when HTML5 WG would not recognize things that were not out on the web
20:55:52 <karen> ...so the fact that publishers were using something within their walled gardens
20:55:55 <karen> ...that did not count
20:56:01 <karen> ...in all the years I have worked in standards
20:56:05 <karen> ...is that publishers never step up
20:56:11 <karen> ...you need to get somebody in the room
20:56:19 <karen> ...and you need to start putting more content out on the web
20:56:26 <karen> ...so the people who develop these tools
20:56:35 <karen> ...can see that publishers use the b and the itag
20:56:43 <karen> ...people who work with you say it's the right thing to do
20:56:48 <karen> ...but browsers don't help
20:56:57 <karen> ...get a membership in W3C and start screaming bloody murder
20:57:10 <karen> ...if you don't, it's going to be programmers who don't know anything about publishing
20:57:13 <karen> [applause]
20:57:21 <karen> Liam: I have to follow Murray
20:57:25 <karen> ...a quick comment
20:57:33 <karen> ...This discussion of how we change things
20:57:37 <karen> ...that is what this workshop is for
20:57:42 <karen> ...it's to figure out how to change things
20:57:49 <karen> ...ask everyone to hold in your hearts
20:57:56 <karen> ...to notice all these things that need to be changed and why
20:58:02 <karen> ...and think about how we can make changes
20:58:07 <karen> ...to some of the things we have heard
20:58:17 <maria> maria has joined #ebooks
20:58:17 <karen> ...getting MathML into Chrome; where are the test cases
20:58:24 <karen> ...how do we get test cases to rec
20:58:29 <karen> ...not one asnwer to everything
20:58:33 <karen> ...more use cases, more examples
20:58:45 <karen> ...Keep in mind please, how can we change the future [applause]
20:58:48 <karen> Alan: Last question
20:58:51 <karen> ...before the break
20:59:02 <karen> Thierry: break for 30 minutes at back of room
20:59:12 <karen> ...I would like to thank Daniel and Karen for scribing
20:59:24 <karen> ...please see me or Karen and volunteer for the next session
20:59:29 <karen> ...Also, if you want to do demos
20:59:34 <karen> ...we have round tables during the break
20:59:36 <danielweck> danielweck has joined #ebooks
20:59:39 <karen> ...so feel free to use them
20:59:44 <karen> ...We will reconvene at 4:30pm
20:59:49 <karen> rrsagent, make minutes
20:59:49 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2013/02/11-ebooks-minutes.html karen
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21:34:30 <karen> scribenick: Karl Dubost
21:34:37 <karl> Topic: 16:30-18:00 Session 2: OWP and EPUB/eBooks
21:34:47 <karl> scribenick: karl
21:35:13 <karl> glazou: (introduction of the good and bad of ePub)
21:35:46 <karl> ... I implemented epub2 and epub3.
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21:36:13 <karl> ... I'm not pointing fingers, just talking about issues *we* have to solve.
21:37:20 <karl> ... (going through bgee requirements)
21:38:53 <karl> ... epub3 specs are based on several dialects. There are too many to deal with for being able to implement it.
21:39:11 <karl> ... we could decrease that number
21:39:34 <karl> ... There are also important changes between epub2 and epub3
21:40:09 <karl> ... Some drafts are considered as Recs, that's an issue. There was no unitary tests for epub.
21:40:18 <karl> s/was/were/
21:41:03 <davidwood> davidwood has joined #ebooks
21:41:14 <karl> ... There are a lot of inconsistencies, unspecified parts, which need to be solved.
21:41:35 <karl> ... All implementers, authors, tutorials writers understand the spec and its meaning.
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21:41:59 <karl> ... (normative references tables which are not normative.)
21:43:14 <karl> ... Some of the documents can evolve a lot, and so the references will not be valid anymore.
21:43:31 <karl> ... It makes it difficult to base your work on moving implementations.
21:43:44 <karl> ... Some ebooks will become irrelevant in a few months.
21:44:31 <karl> ... The very first thing you hit in an epub is a Manifest… but zip already contains a Manifest.
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21:45:20 <karl> ... Is it useful to know the relationships between the files?
21:45:49 <karl> ... many things are already given from by the viewers engine and their api already.
21:46:35 <karl> ... Too many TOCs
21:46:41 <karl> ... We just need one.
21:47:26 <karl> ... Metadata in epu3 were a nightmare to implement.
21:47:41 <karl> ... the relationships in between the metadata are scary.
21:48:52 <karl> ... id/idref are too complex. It should not happened. It's very bad for UI. People do not understand them.
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21:49:45 <karl> ... Heavy usage of namespaces make the documents bloated.
21:50:50 <karl> ... 1000 pages are opened in a few seconds. It's not needed to have namespaces.
21:51:31 <karl> ... URI management in epub is a proof of the devil
21:51:50 <karl> ... complex management of property vocabularies.
21:52:12 <karl> ... "We may remove the prefix in the future"
21:52:30 <karl> ... but it's not specified what you should do once the prefix is removed.
21:52:31 <eric> eric has joined #ebooks
21:53:18 <karl> ... Compatibility between epub versions is a myth.
21:53:51 <karl> ... content documents: no default rendering.
21:54:11 <maria> maria has joined #ebooks
21:54:15 <karl> ... epub3 refers to html5 which is still in work in progress.
21:54:27 <karl> ... extra schema for html5 that editing tools don't use.
21:54:50 <karl> ... is epub:trigger needed? There's an implementation cost with it.
21:55:42 <karl> ... AltStyleTags meaningful link classes. No notifications to the CSS WG. It reduces the space of class.
21:56:13 <karl> ... CSS profile based on WDs which are not stable.
21:56:31 <karl> ... epub should be only a packaging format with Web standards only.
21:57:19 <karl> ... Should use only html5, allow both serializations?
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21:59:17 <karl> ... Some decisions in the spec lead to bad UI requirements.
22:00:24 <karl> ... We have in the W3C to listen the publishing platform, but we need to do a few things before HTML5 Rec, CSS regions, Archive API for zips, etc.
22:00:54 <karl> ... BUT we need the participation of the publishing industry.
22:01:25 <karl> ... Get rid of proprietary XML dialects, and Epub core model and tests, tests, tests, …
22:02:05 <fjh> fjh has joined #ebooks
22:02:41 <karl> Soochoi: Soo Choi, epub production department at Harpers Collins
22:02:41 <jdovey> jdovey has joined #ebooks
22:02:56 <mgylling> mgylling has joined #ebooks
22:03:00 <karl> ... Reaching the same screen in the digital landscape.
22:03:25 <karl> ... Retailers specific formats are coming back.
22:03:36 <karl> ... "Enhanced ebook"
22:04:11 <karl> ... (in house workflows for the print graph)
22:05:20 <karl> ... Print files are converted to ebooks
22:06:23 <karl> ... ISBN assignment are part of the issue. Every file format requires a unique format.
22:07:11 <karl> ... It has been very difficult to support the different devices.
22:07:33 <karl> ... sometimes the retailers are having their own features and they do not tell in advance what will they support.
22:08:23 <karl> ... There should be an enforcement of epub3 by govs, or organizations.
22:09:05 <karl> ... (Proposal for a limited subset of specs)
22:10:07 <karl> ... We need a consistent and positive experience between the author and the reader
22:11:10 <karen> Dave Cramer, Hachette
22:11:31 <karl> cramer: we want more robust ebooks.
22:11:46 <karl> ... case study L.A. Noire
22:11:50 <danielweck> danielweck has joined #ebooks
22:12:01 <karl> ... some viewers render things very differently even the simpler thing
22:12:52 <karl> ... some fonts are used very specifically for the mood of the book. Monospaced font was not possible to use on ibooks until we found a hack.
22:13:11 <karl> ... We want users to have the option to see it as designed.
22:13:50 <karl> ... We do not know which reading system our books is on.
22:14:02 <karl> ... web developers use UA string.
22:14:17 <karl> ... mediaqueries are useful if it was not crashing
22:14:40 <karl> ... @support would be useful if it was implemented.
22:15:09 <karl> ... For interactivity the spec is quite light.
22:15:41 <karl> ... epub2 was defined for things working in theory but not in practice.
22:16:21 <karl> ... epubpreflight for checking what is supported.
22:18:10 <karl> marriott: from Monash University
22:18:41 <karl> ... standards should not be only static. We are designing for the future too.
22:19:18 <karl> ... What are the opportunities for the future?
22:19:42 <Judy> Judy has joined #ebooks
22:21:02 <karl> ... we want to have interactive and dynamic contents.
22:21:14 <karl> ... we want things to be immersive to be able to live the contents.
22:21:24 <karl> ... we want to be able to customize the content.
22:21:44 <karl> ... including collaborative and continuous authoring.
22:22:03 <karl> ... Multiple devices and accessibility.
22:24:19 <karl> ... (summary of the automatic document layout discussed at ACM on document engineering)
22:25:21 <karl> ... There are things which are already available in CSS, but not everything.
22:25:51 <karl> ... (mentioning things like pdftex, indesign, tex, vdp, etc.)
22:28:17 <karl> ... accessible graphic, haptic feedback. We need content and a standard for it.
22:28:36 <karl> ... When making standards, we need to think about the future.
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22:31:16 <karl> glushko: Robert J. Glushko, Berkeley - Bridging the Gap between ebook readers and browsers
22:32:26 <karl> ... collaborative teaching with a multidisciplinary textbook
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22:33:03 <karl> ... We can imagine a networked discoverable books with transcluded content.
22:33:14 <karl> ... It requires to think about books differently
22:33:39 <karl> ... a book can not be only on the Web, they should be of the Web.
22:33:53 <karl> ... We want books are native Web fabrics.
22:34:11 <karl> ... We want to be able to have Web books which are Web things.
22:35:17 <karl> ... Ebooks should be a first class Web citizen.
22:35:23 <karl> ... It should be linkable.
22:36:15 <karl> ... It should not be publisher centric.
22:36:56 <karl> ... How do we store content is an issue. There should be a browser agnostic system, where we can identify things with URI.
22:38:17 <karl> ... we want to be able to cache the content, manipulate it, modify it and have sync from the client to the server and so on.
22:38:36 <karl> ... There should be a browser export/import format.
22:39:27 <karl> QUESTIONS
22:39:35 <karen> Murray Maloney
22:39:49 <karl> murray: I was surprised by your comment on id/idrefs
22:40:09 <karl> ... first class links, How do we point things?
22:40:25 <karl> glazou: we need linking mechanism and counting mechanism.
22:40:43 <karl> ... things right now are working inside one document, not across documents.
22:40:59 <karl> ... How do we do it? And how do we make it happen right now?
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22:41:20 <erikmannens> rrsagent, make minutes
22:41:20 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2013/02/11-ebooks-minutes.html erikmannens
22:41:26 <karen> Mia Amato, Skyhorse Publishing
22:41:56 <karl> mia: How do we plan to handle QA in between retailers and different devices?
22:42:16 <maria> maria has joined #ebooks
22:42:25 <karl> soochoi: There are multiple rounds of QA involved on different devices. There is technical QA.
22:42:33 <karl> mia: editorial are involved?
22:42:37 <karl> soochoi: yes
22:43:35 <karl> nick AAAAA: we talk about advanced features, but even on the basic features there are a lot of issues.
22:43:56 <karl> ... without the kindle, we are not making money. So we need to be compatible with them.
22:44:00 <karen> Nick @ Rufolo
22:44:08 <karl> ... How do we put pressure on them?
22:44:22 <karl> s/AAAAA/@ Rufolo/
22:44:44 <karl> cramer: I'm very pessimistic about Amazon changing things.
22:44:57 <karl> ... It's sad.
22:45:33 <karen> Frederick Hirsch, Nokia
22:45:41 <karl> glushko: textbooks are not likely to go to kindle more than other things.
22:46:40 <karl> mccoy (hirsch too): What is the roadmap
22:46:52 <karl> mccoy: It's why we are here today.
22:47:29 <karl> … The full power of the Web platform has to be in books. We do not know yet how to monetize it.
22:47:53 <karl> BBBB: We heard about content cache, appcache
22:47:58 <karen> Anderson, Los Alamos National Labs
22:48:17 <karen> s/Anderson/Robert Sanderson
22:48:19 <karl> ... Could you share how annotations should be carried on in books.
22:48:35 <ivan> s/s/BBBB/Robert Sanderson/
22:49:11 <ivan> s/BBBB/Robert Sanderson/
22:49:12 <karl> glushko: My books are designed to evolve. Publishers think in release once and for all.
22:49:45 <karl> ... The system don't work this way. It's sad. We can't do continuous annotation.
22:50:14 <karen> David Cramer, Hachette
22:50:46 <karl> Scribenick: karen
22:50:56 <karen> ...it's complicated thing, I don't have a good answer
22:51:09 <karen> Robert Sanderson: Daniel, can you weigh in on this
22:51:17 <karen> ...helping the reader or publisher or somehwere in between
22:51:21 <karen> ...to add content to the ebook
22:51:27 <karen> ...and how that might work with an extended API
22:51:31 <karen> Glazou: content is not a problem
22:51:37 <karen> ...content and distributing it is a problem
22:51:48 <karen> ...all the repository owners of documents have applications
22:51:56 <karen> ...they know how to distribute a new version of an app
22:52:04 <karen> ...should know how to distribute a document
22:52:12 <karen> ...it's not server side, it's on client side
22:52:17 <karen> ...book, you need a dif
22:52:22 <fjh> my question was (a) given the concerns with ePub is deployment happening and is there a roadmap to fix issues
22:52:23 <karen> ...this is something a bit @
22:52:36 <karen> ...on annotations, likely need a linking mechanism between packages
22:52:42 <fjh> and (b) what is the deployment  situation for education and textbooks  (given need for interactivity etc)
22:52:44 <karen> ...if you download one package, you need a link
22:52:48 <karen> ...whether it's free or not
22:52:57 <karen> ...renderer gets data from two different channels
22:53:01 <karen> ...that is likely the right way to do it
22:53:08 <karen> Neil, design science
22:53:18 <karen> ...No representatives from Apple or Amazon
22:53:26 <karen> ...a challenge, where are the publishers
22:53:35 <karen> ...and where are the implementers to do the standards
22:53:40 <karen> ...I know this has been a problem
22:53:46 <karen> ...this is a pretty critical situation
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22:53:59 <karen> David C: Apple has participated to some extent in the ePub work
22:54:09 <karen> ...expect they are under interesting contraints from their management
22:54:13 <karen> ...I have no idea what goes on
22:54:23 <tmichel> rrsagent, make minutes
22:54:23 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2013/02/11-ebooks-minutes.html tmichel
22:54:30 <karen> ...Amazon has had no participation as far as I know
22:54:36 <karen> ...feel that they don't need to talk to us
22:54:41 <karen> ...'If you build it they will come'
22:54:59 <karen> Karen: we had a non-response from Amazon outreach for this workshop
22:55:11 <karen> Glazou: we met last week in Tuscon for CSS F2F
22:55:15 <karen> ...and Apple was there
22:55:25 <karen> ...but some of their own features we would like them to submit, we did not see
22:55:32 <karen> ...Apple has a way of doing things that belongs to Apple
22:55:38 <karen> ...and they don't have the right to speak at conferences
22:55:51 <karen> ...unless they are allowed on the conference basis
22:55:54 <karen> ...what can I say?
22:56:02 <karen> Markus: In terms of bashing companies not present
22:56:14 <karen> ...Apple has been one of the earliest implementers of ePub3
22:56:23 <karen> ...they are certainly a good citizen in the ecosystem
22:56:27 <karen> ...everything is relative
22:56:32 <karen> David: I would agree with that statement
22:56:41 <karen> Karl Dubost: We talked about a lot of issues for publishers
22:56:45 <karen> ...but also issues for readerse
22:56:48 <karen> ...I am a big reader
22:56:58 <karen> ...I can put an image, notes, annotation into my books
22:57:03 <karen> ...I may put two books side by side
22:57:10 <karen> ...these are things missing in the ebooks ecosytems
22:57:18 <karen> ...cannot make notes between two books
22:57:26 <karen> ...I'd like to have a wiki book approach
22:57:30 <karen> ...and edit content inside the book
22:57:35 <karen> ...plenty of things we cannot do right now
22:57:44 <karen> ...where it's a failure to the print platform
22:57:53 <karen> RobertG: any book with a URI can do this
22:58:02 <karen> Glazou: if a book has no URI, not fragments
22:58:05 <karen> scribenick: Karl
22:58:26 <karl> ccc: in terms of annotations, there will be more talk about it tomorrow
22:58:37 <glazou> glazou: nevermind, my bad
22:58:59 <fjh> http://www.w3.org/community/openannotation/
22:59:02 <karl> ccc: we want to speed up the process.
22:59:16 <karl> ddd, Google: I just want to clarify something.
22:59:43 <karl> ... It was not just a liaison. It was a recommendation of the css wg.
22:59:50 <karl> glazou: no
23:00:14 <karl> ddd: Maybe there was misunderstanding, but there was discussion made at the css wg.
23:00:27 <karl> ... search for alternate stylesheets.
23:00:53 <karen> Peter Krautzberger
23:00:56 <karl> eee: One of the key issues seems to be to get the reading systems out of the way
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23:01:51 <karl> krautzberger: It should not be only implemented but also overrided.
23:02:17 <karl> cramer: Something it depends on the constraints that devs have seen in the wild.
23:04:00 <karl> glazou: you can't really. The issue is that there are competitive advantage in between readers.
23:04:32 <karl> cramer: It's a battle in between two paradigms.
23:04:52 <karl> glazou: the vendor can infer many things about your reading habits.
23:05:01 <karl> ... these data are sold.
23:05:27 <karl> ... all vendors want to keep readers to have access to these data.
23:06:13 <karl> Topic: Conclusion for today.
23:06:29 <karl> tmichel: we reconvene tomorrow at 8:30
23:06:57 <karen> rrsagent, make minutes
23:06:57 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2013/02/11-ebooks-minutes.html karen
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