18:17:15 <RRSAgent> RRSAgent has joined #dntc
18:17:15 <RRSAgent> logging to http://www.w3.org/2013/02/11-dntc-irc
18:17:17 <ionel> ionel has joined #dntc
18:18:34 <dsinger> dsinger has joined #dntc
18:21:49 <wseltzer> wseltzer has joined #dntc
18:23:05 <ionel> ionel has joined #dntc
18:28:22 <fielding> fielding has joined #dntc
18:28:34 <WaltM_Comcast> WaltM_Comcast has joined #dntc
18:32:44 <WaltM_Comcast> WaltM_Comcast has joined #DNTC
18:35:09 <npdoty> npdoty has joined #dntc
18:36:52 <ionel> ionel has joined #dntc
18:38:53 <dsinger> dsinger has joined #dntc
18:40:29 <adrianba> adrianba has joined #dntc
18:40:35 <adrianba> zakim, who is on the phone?
18:40:35 <Zakim> sorry, adrianba, I don't know what conference this is
18:40:36 <Zakim> On IRC I see adrianba, dsinger, ionel, npdoty, WaltM_Comcast, fielding, wseltzer, RRSAgent, Zakim
18:40:37 <dsinger> DNT C is online on the phone.
18:40:43 <adrianba> zakim, this is 26633
18:40:44 <Zakim> ok, adrianba; that matches Team_(dntc)18:30Z
18:41:01 <adrianba> zakim, who is on the phone?
18:41:01 <Zakim> On the phone I see [Comcast]?, +1.617.324.aabb
18:41:06 <dsinger> zakim, who is on the phone?
18:41:06 <Zakim> On the phone I see [Comcast]?, +1.617.324.aabb
18:41:17 <adrianba> rrsagent, make minutes
18:41:17 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2013/02/11-dntc-minutes.html adrianba
18:41:40 <dsinger> zakim, aabb is statacenter
18:41:40 <Zakim> +statacenter; got it
18:41:42 <adrianba> rrsagent, make logs public
18:41:42 <WaltM_Comcast> WaltM is Comcast 215-480-5838
18:42:12 <adrianba> zakim, [Comcast] is WaltM_Comcast
18:42:12 <Zakim> +WaltM_Comcast; got it
18:42:30 <dsinger> QUESTION 1: “Lifetime browsing history” is a phrase that is often used, but never defined clearly. What would LBH mean as a technical matter?
18:42:35 <adrianba> Scribe: adrianba
18:42:39 <Lmastria_DAA> Lmastria_DAA has joined #dntc
18:43:33 <adrianba> rrsagent, make minutes
18:43:33 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2013/02/11-dntc-minutes.html adrianba
18:43:52 <adrianba> TOPIC: “Lifetime browsing history” is a phrase that is often used, but never defined clearly. What would LBH mean as a technical matter?
18:45:47 <tlr> tlr has joined #dntc
18:46:48 <dsinger> we discuss background of 'buckets'...
18:47:09 <adrianba> Lmastria_DAA: for the 1024 case, we're talking about minimum number of people in a bucket
18:47:25 <adrianba> dsinger: so that the addition of one more piece of info doesn't identify the person
18:47:45 <adrianba> adrianba: so you would need 2000-ish people before you have more than one group
18:48:33 <adrianba> dsinger: there are some famous cases of problems with DeID
18:48:45 <adrianba> Lmastria_DAA: yes, but many of these examples were a long time ago
18:48:58 <adrianba> ... contractual constraints have been added often to stop this
18:49:18 <adrianba> ... one of the traps from the 1024 route is that it assumes there are no other constraints in place
18:49:47 <adrianba> ... if i give information to some company, what am I giving actually, and what are the safeguards for preventing non-authorised use of the information
18:49:57 <adrianba> ... 1024 doesn't address this
18:50:11 <adrianba> dsinger: okay, so let's look at Q1
18:50:44 <adrianba> dsinger: what does LBH mean as a technical matter
18:50:49 <adrianba> Lmastria_DAA: LBH of what?
18:50:59 <adrianba> ... of my browser? cellphone? person?
18:51:06 <adrianba> ... is it PII?
18:51:43 <adrianba> ... me vs. an IP address in some county
18:52:57 <adrianba> ... should be tied to use - it isn't only a technical matter
18:54:22 <adrianba> adrianba: is LBH the data we're trying to protect?
18:55:01 <adrianba> Lmastria_DAA: objectively, what is the thing we're trying to protect?
18:56:08 <peterswire> peterswire has joined #dntc
18:57:01 <peterswire> rrsagent, make record world
18:57:34 <adrianba> [general discussion about different kinds of risks - commercial, government]
18:58:52 <adrianba> dsinger: might someone be able to buy data about individuals?
18:58:57 <Yianni> Yianni has joined #dntc
18:59:19 <adrianba> Lmastria_DAA: providers of data for advertising provide instances of people in a particular category but not down to the individual level
19:00:18 <adrianba> Ionel: to be constructive - we either say we don't know what LBH is because we don't know what it is or come up with some answer and try to define it
19:00:40 <adrianba> ... we should be able to define as something like points of data across time - e.g. all the URIs a computer traverses across time
19:01:08 <adrianba> ... you put all this in a giant database, collect it, that's it
19:01:23 <adrianba> ... the issue is can you link it back to a person or is it just some unknown ID
19:01:41 <adrianba> mike: is this part of DeID?
19:01:46 <adrianba> Yianni: yes
19:02:39 <adrianba> rrsagent, make minutes
19:02:39 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2013/02/11-dntc-minutes.html adrianba
19:03:38 <dsinger> q?
19:04:04 <adrianba> Yianni: we need to consider all the risks - LBH has some risks, we identify the possible harm and try to mitigate it
19:04:25 <BillScannell__> BillScannell__ has joined #dntc
19:04:42 <adrianba> Ionel: with cookies being deleted, if someone tries to keep a LBH they will lose me
19:05:05 <adrianba> dsinger: i think you're optimistic about how easy it is to be forgotten
19:05:24 <adrianba> rrsagent, make minutes
19:05:24 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2013/02/11-dntc-minutes.html adrianba
19:07:00 <adrianba> Lmastria_DAA: advertisers need to scale - they don't target an ad at an individual
19:07:06 <adrianba> ... the use really matters
19:12:15 <peterswire> peterswire has joined #dntc
19:18:21 <WaltM_Comcast> WaltM_Comcast has joined #dntc
19:18:26 <adrianba> TOPIC: In light of this definition what technical measures would suppress or delete LBH?
19:21:57 <adrianba> dsinger: LBH: Personally identifiable browsing history (URLs, search terms, etc.) that represents a 'reasonable portion' of that person's activity over a 'significant time'.
19:23:02 <peterswire> peterswire has joined #dntc
19:30:57 <adrianba> rrsagent, make minutes
19:30:57 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2013/02/11-dntc-minutes.html adrianba
19:34:08 <ionel> ionel has joined #dntc
19:34:57 <adrianba> mike: we could put rules on browsers
19:35:06 <adrianba> Lmastria_DAA: that's not feasible
19:35:20 <adrianba> dsinger: browsers don't know what cookies are being used for
19:36:07 <adrianba> [discussion of alternative techniques for identification, contractual/best practice/etc safeguard measures]
19:39:38 <adrianba> [could configure browsers to not visit some sites]
19:39:57 <adrianba> [set limits on what and how long data is retained]
19:40:14 <adrianba> [set browsers to limit maximum cookie lifetimes]
19:40:38 <adrianba> rrsagent, make minutes
19:40:38 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2013/02/11-dntc-minutes.html adrianba
19:41:10 <schunter> schunter has joined #dntc
19:44:40 <adrianba> [discussion of timeline for deletion]
19:48:04 <adrianba> TOPIC: Tying LBH to the previous group discussions of "buckets" or "low-entropy cookies", how can the latter continue while suppressing or deleting LBH
19:53:12 <adrianba> rrsagent, make minutes
19:53:12 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2013/02/11-dntc-minutes.html adrianba
19:54:38 <adrianba> [discussion that the URLs are useful to begin with but not later - can we put people in buckets after that time]
19:55:02 <ionel> ionel has joined #dntc
19:55:37 <adrianba> TOPIC: Are there any compelling use cases for retaining detailed browsing history beyond a general time limit on retention?
19:57:46 <adrianba> dsinger: we already have permitted uses that say you only collect the data you need for the purposes you need and only for as long as needed for that purpose
19:57:51 <adrianba> ... this is already in the spec
19:57:57 <adrianba> [all agree]
19:58:18 <adrianba> TOPIC: If so, how would you limit those use cases consistent with the goals of (1) limiting LBH; while (2) enabling "buckets" or "low-entropy cookies"?
19:58:27 <adrianba> rrsagent, make minutes
19:58:27 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2013/02/11-dntc-minutes.html adrianba
19:59:08 <adrianba> Chair: dsinger
19:59:10 <adrianba> rrsagent, make minutes
19:59:10 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2013/02/11-dntc-minutes.html adrianba
20:00:06 <peterswire> peterswire has joined #dntc
20:13:07 <ionel> ionel has joined #dntc
20:16:18 <Zakim> -statacenter
20:16:27 <Zakim> -WaltM_Comcast
20:16:29 <Zakim> Team_(dntc)18:30Z has ended
20:16:29 <Zakim> Attendees were +1.215.480.aaaa, +1.617.324.aabb, statacenter, WaltM_Comcast
20:24:36 <dsinger> dsinger has joined #dntc
20:33:19 <ionel> ionel has joined #dntc
20:43:58 <dsinger> dsinger has joined #dntc
20:56:01 <peterswire> peterswire has joined #dntc
21:06:23 <Zakim> Zakim has left #dntc
21:09:05 <dsinger> dsinger has joined #dntc
21:16:49 <schunter> schunter has joined #dntc
21:33:15 <schunter> schunter has joined #dntc
21:38:44 <tlr> rrsagent, draft minutes
21:38:44 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2013/02/11-dntc-minutes.html tlr
21:48:49 <ionel> ionel has left #dntc
21:54:27 <peterswire> peterswire has joined #dntc
22:04:56 <schunter> schunter has joined #dntc
22:19:38 <dsinger> dsinger has joined #dntc