15:53:01 <RRSAgent> RRSAgent has joined #forms
15:53:01 <RRSAgent> logging to http://www.w3.org/2013/02/06-forms-irc
15:53:03 <trackbot> RRSAgent, make logs public
15:53:03 <Zakim> Zakim has joined #forms
15:53:05 <trackbot> Zakim, this will be IA_XForms
15:53:05 <Zakim> ok, trackbot; I see IA_XForms()11:00AM scheduled to start in 7 minutes
15:53:06 <trackbot> Meeting: Forms Working Group Teleconference
15:53:06 <trackbot> Date: 06 February 2013
15:53:48 <Steven> Agenda: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-forms/2013Feb/0007
15:53:59 <Steven> Steven has changed the topic to: Agenda http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-forms/2013Feb/0007
15:54:04 <Steven> Chair: Steven
15:54:08 <Steven> Regrets: Philip
15:59:35 <ebruchez> ebruchez has joined #forms
16:02:11 <nvdbleek> nvdbleek has joined #forms
16:03:47 <Zakim> IA_XForms()11:00AM has now started
16:03:54 <Zakim> +nvdbleek
16:04:11 <ebruchez> zakim, code
16:04:11 <Zakim> I don't understand 'code', ebruchez
16:04:21 <nvdbleek> zakim, code?
16:04:21 <Zakim> the conference code is 93676 (tel:+1.617.761.6200 sip:zakim@voip.w3.org), nvdbleek
16:04:29 <unl> unl has joined #forms
16:04:30 <Zakim> +??P36
16:04:36 <Steven> zakim, I am ?
16:04:36 <Zakim> +Steven; got it
16:05:07 <Zakim> +ebruchez
16:05:57 <Zakim> +unl
16:08:32 <Steven> Scribe: Steven
16:08:33 <Steven> Topic: The XForms Dialog Module + relevance
16:08:33 <Steven> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-forms/2013Jan/0019.html
16:09:04 <Steven> Steven: THe last remark last week was from Uli "We need to talk about relevance"
16:09:11 <Steven> s/TH/Th/
16:09:38 <Steven> Uli: About show and hide events
16:09:57 <unl> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-forms/2013Jan/0021.html
16:10:28 <Steven> Uli: Point 2, suggested behaviour
16:10:50 <Steven>  - close the dialog if it becomes non-relevant (we can't do much else anyway)
16:10:50 <Steven> - don't re-open if it becomes relevant (idea: non-relevant controls lose
16:10:50 <Steven> state information)
16:11:16 <Steven> Uli: Is this consistent with other controls?
16:11:31 <Steven> Nick: More or less
16:12:14 <Steven> Uli: I'm not sure that our controls lose state when they go from relevance to non-relevance and back
16:12:26 <Steven> ... it may be implementation-dependent
16:12:55 <Steven> ... does it get recomputed?
16:13:13 <Steven> Erik: I'm not sure we ever finished that discussion
16:13:43 <Steven> ... compare switch-case which has changed state, what happens then? This would be similar.
16:13:54 <Steven> ... maybe if the spec says, we can do the same.
16:14:32 <Steven> ... In any case it seems odd that it should pop back into life.
16:14:59 <Steven> Nick: Agree
16:15:25 <Steven> Uli: OK
16:15:56 <Steven> Steven: So agreed.
16:16:12 <Steven> Topic: The bind() function
16:16:12 <Steven> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-forms/2013Jan/0022.html
16:16:23 <unl> http://www.w3.org/MarkUp/Forms/wiki/Bind_function
16:16:34 <Steven> Uli: We had some wiki text. It's not hard to do
16:17:21 <Steven> Nick: There are some problems.
16:17:33 <Steven> ... it implicitly creates dependencies
16:18:05 <Steven> Uli: The dependency engine has to be aware of the bind function?
16:18:23 <Steven> Nick: The text of the dependency engine says it only looks at arguments
16:18:29 <Steven> ... that would be hard to get right
16:19:05 <Steven> ... it would change the core spec, not only the functions spec
16:19:32 <Steven> Erik: THere are many places where you could use bind()
16:19:37 <Steven> s/TH/Th/
16:19:47 <Steven> ... it has many uses
16:20:14 <Steven> ... if it is to hard to revise the dependency text, we can say it is undefined
16:21:18 <Steven> Uli: The instance() function surely has the same sort of problems
16:21:50 <Steven> Nick: Except it returns the root node, which doesn't change
16:22:40 <Steven> Erik: and a structural change gives a rebuild
16:23:14 <Steven> ... but I agree about the comparison between build and instance
16:23:55 <Steven> ... and there are problems with allowing it on bond refs.
16:24:02 <Steven> s/bond/bind/
16:24:42 <Steven> Steven: Does anyone implement this yet?
16:25:00 <Steven> Erik: We do, but we ignore the dependency aspects
16:25:12 <Steven> Steven: So it has no effect on the dependencies?
16:25:49 <Steven> Nick: We use it, but you have to be careful using it, it effects the ordering of binds
16:25:59 <Steven> a/effects/affects/
16:26:49 <Steven> Steven: SO the ordering of binds becomes important, and not interoperable?
16:26:59 <Steven> Erik: We should ban it on bind@ref
16:27:05 <Steven> s/SO/So/
16:27:34 <Steven> Nick: Also dangerous for a recalculate, since ti won't be automatically recalculated.
16:27:39 <Steven> s/ti/it/
16:27:56 <Steven> Erik: right
16:28:02 <ebruchez> <bind ref="foo" calculate="bind('other-bind')"/>
16:28:54 <Steven> Uli: You could statically analyse xpath expressions
16:29:04 <Steven> Erik: THe spec has never required that, that would be really new
16:29:10 <Steven> s/TH/Th/
16:29:27 <ebruchez> <bind ref="bind(contact('other', id))">
16:29:32 <nvdbleek> <bind ref="foo" calculate="bind(../foo)"/>
16:30:12 <Steven> Nick: That is a counter example to static analysis
16:31:27 <Steven> Uli: So disallow it on bind expressions
16:32:04 <Steven> Nick: Use vars?
16:33:17 <Steven> Erik: If we prohibit it, then implementations can't even try to fix it.
16:35:20 <ebruchez> "If the function is used in a model binding expressionXF the XForms Processor should terminate processing after dispatching the event xforms-binding-exception to the model. If the function is used in a computed expressionXF the XForms Processor should terminate processing after dispatching the event xforms-compute-exception to the model."
16:35:24 <Steven> Nick: We should watch out for adding new features to the last-call spec
16:35:47 <Steven> ... we need two interoperable implementations, and be comfortable with the definition
16:36:30 <ebruchez> (the above is about the valid() function)
16:36:35 <Steven> Erik: We could us similar text to that from valid(), see above
16:36:55 <Steven> s/ us / use /
16:37:06 <Steven> Erik: Note the "should" there
16:37:23 <Steven> ... sometimes the spec is too strict I find
16:40:19 <Steven> Steven: value="bind('constant', xpath)"
16:40:47 <unl> value="concat(bind('a'), bind('b'))"
16:40:59 <Steven> Uli: You also want to use it deep in an expression
16:40:59 <ebruchez> calculate="foo + bind(''bar)"
16:41:45 <Zakim> + +1.443.837.aaaa
16:41:57 <Steven> zakim, + is Kurt
16:41:57 <Zakim> +Kurt; got it
16:43:37 <Steven> Steven: I think we need to work on this feature more before we add it to the spec. It is now too late for the LC spec
16:45:30 <Steven> Uli: I don't think bind() is to hard to specify.
16:45:48 <Steven> s/ to / too /
16:46:17 <Steven> Steven: We have a time constraint.
16:46:36 <Steven> Topic: The mediatype Element (for upload)
16:46:36 <Steven> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-forms/2013Jan/0024.html
16:47:10 <unl> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-forms/2013Feb/0003.html
16:48:08 <Steven> Uli: These things are two different things; I propose we change the attribute name to "accept"
16:49:20 <Steven> Nick: I made an error. I should not have deprecated the mediatype element.
16:49:47 <Steven> Erik: We need to fix that mistake.
16:50:08 <Steven> ACTION: Nick to fix the upload/mediatype deprecation error
16:50:08 <trackbot> Created ACTION-1929 - Fix the upload/mediatype deprecation error [on Nick Van Den Bleeken - due 2013-02-13].
16:50:45 <Steven> Uli: They should also have different names
16:50:56 <Steven> ... since they are different things.
16:53:01 <Steven> Uli: It would be nice to reduce some markup bloat
16:53:29 <Steven> Erik: I would like to use attributes instead of nested elements
16:54:08 <Steven> ... I'm not against moving to attributes.
16:54:21 <Steven> Uli: There are more places where we could do that
16:54:33 <Steven> ... we should do it at all places where possible
16:54:55 <Steven> Erik: I thought I sent out a proposal for this last year
16:55:05 <ebruchez> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-forms/2012Feb/0030.html
16:56:15 <Steven> Uli: I shall reread the spec for all places where we could do this.
16:56:38 <Steven> ACTION Uli: propose all places where child elements can be replaced with AVT attributes
16:56:38 <trackbot> Error finding 'Uli'. You can review and register nicknames at <https://www.w3.org/2005/06/tracker/xforms/users>.
16:57:04 <Steven> ACTION Ulrich: propose all places where child elements can be replaced with AVT attributes
16:57:05 <trackbot> Created ACTION-1930 - Propose all places where child elements can be replaced with AVT attributes [on Ulrich Nicolas Lissé - due 2013-02-13].
16:58:13 <Steven> Uli: What about accept attibute on upload?
16:58:25 <Steven> s/atti/attri/
16:58:58 <Steven> ACTION: Uli to propose text for @accept on upload
16:58:58 <trackbot> Error finding 'Uli'. You can review and register nicknames at <https://www.w3.org/2005/06/tracker/xforms/users>.
16:59:21 <Steven> tracknot, help
16:59:27 <Steven> trackbot, help
16:59:27 <trackbot> Please see <http://www.w3.org/2005/06/tracker/irc> for help.
17:00:02 <Steven> ACTION: Ulrich to propose text for @accept on upload
17:00:03 <trackbot> Created ACTION-1931 - Propose text for @accept on upload [on Ulrich Nicolas Lissé - due 2013-02-13].
17:00:30 <Zakim> -ebruchez
17:00:30 <Steven> [ADJOURN]
17:00:31 <Zakim> -unl
17:00:31 <Zakim> -nvdbleek
17:00:32 <Zakim> -Steven
17:00:43 <Steven> zakim, who is here?
17:00:43 <Zakim> On the phone I see Kurt
17:00:44 <Zakim> On IRC I see unl, nvdbleek, Zakim, RRSAgent, Steven, trackbot
17:00:48 <Steven> zakim, drop kurt
17:00:48 <Zakim> Kurt is being disconnected
17:00:50 <Zakim> IA_XForms()11:00AM has ended
17:00:50 <Zakim> Attendees were nvdbleek, Steven, ebruchez, unl, +1.443.837.aaaa, Kurt
17:00:55 <Steven> rrsagent, make minutes
17:00:56 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2013/02/06-forms-minutes.html Steven
17:46:04 <ebruchez> ebruchez has joined #forms
19:14:13 <nvdbleek> nvdbleek has joined #forms
19:17:48 <Zakim> Zakim has left #forms
19:57:32 <nvdbleek> nvdbleek has joined #forms
21:08:12 <windauer> windauer has joined #forms