15:58:11 RRSAgent has joined #pointerevents 15:58:11 logging to http://www.w3.org/2013/02/05-pointerevents-irc 15:58:29 Scribe: Art 15:58:29 ScribeNick: ArtB 15:58:29 Agenda: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-pointer-events/2013JanMar/0061.html 15:58:29 Date: 5 February 2013 15:58:29 Chair: Art 15:58:29 Meeting: Pointer Events WG Voice Conference 15:58:37 Good morning, Art. 15:59:27 RRSAgent, make minutes 15:59:27 I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2013/02/05-pointerevents-minutes.html ArtB 15:59:33 RRSAgent, make log Public 15:59:58 +scott_gonzalez 16:00:13 +Matt_Brubeck 16:00:19 +[Microsoft] 16:00:21 -[Microsoft] 16:00:35 +[Microsoft] 16:00:39 -[Microsoft] 16:01:18 +Doug_Schepers 16:01:42 +jrossi2 16:02:14 Zakim, jrossi2 is really Jacob_Rossi 16:02:14 +Jacob_Rossi; got it 16:02:19 Present: Art_Barstow, Scott_Gonzalez, Matt_Brubeck, Doug_Schepers, Jacob_Rossi 16:02:24 Zakim, nick jrossi2 is Jacob_Rossi 16:02:24 ok, mbrubeck, I now associate jrossi2 with Jacob_Rossi 16:02:39 +[Microsoft] 16:02:41 Zakim, I am Matt_Brubeck 16:02:41 ok, mbrubeck, I now associate you with Matt_Brubeck 16:02:59 Present+ Asir_Vedamuthu 16:03:04 Regrets: Rick_Byers, Olli_Pettay 16:03:11 Topic: Agenda 16:03:19 AB: I posted a draft agenda a couple of days ago http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-pointer-events/2013JanMar/0061.html. Since then there has been a relatively significant amount of activity on various agenda topics. 16:03:25 AB: we could now try to sort out what needs to be dropped, changed, added; or, it could be more time efficient to just stick with the draft agenda and adjust it accordingly as we proceed. 16:03:38 AB: we can also add a discussion about LC plans to the AoB section. 16:03:49 AB: is that OK? Any other proposed additions 16:04:09 JR: want to walk through some of my e-mails 16:04:14 AB: sure, that's fine 16:04:43 Topic: Making click/contextmenu use PointerEvent interface 16:04:48 asir has joined #pointerevents 16:04:49 AB: this topic was raised by Rick a few weeks ago http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-pointer-events/2013JanMar/0024.html and we talked about it last week http://www.w3.org/2013/01/29-pointerevents-minutes.html#item02. 16:05:07 AB: it appears we still need feedback from Rick so I propose we postpone this topic and I can assign an Action to  Rick to reply to this thread. OK? 16:05:43 JR: I think that's fine 16:05:56 … I raised this issue and if it takes some more time that's fine 16:06:07 … I dont think it will require changes to PE spec 16:06:08 +Cathy 16:06:17 … but perhaps some spec in HTML and/or WebApps 16:06:31 ACTION: Rick reply to the "Making click/contextmenu use PointerEvent interface" thread 16:06:31 Created ACTION-18 - Reply to the "Making click/contextmenu use PointerEvent interface" thread [on Rick Byers - due 2013-02-12]. 16:06:33 Cathy has joined #pointerevents 16:06:41 Topic: Mapping for devices that don't support hover and CSS :hover; bug 20222 16:06:47 AB: the hover issue is documented in bug 20222 https://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=20222 and Rick started a related thread http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-pointer-events/2013JanMar/0041.html. 16:06:56 Present+ Cathy_Chan 16:06:56 AB: an issue is whether or not the current text regarding hover is overly restrictive (given hover's  usage `in the wild`). And there is also an issue about making sure v1 doesn't preclude us from doing 16:07:16 … something about this in v2 16:07:22 AB: we postponed this topic last week because Rick was not present. He followed up yesterday http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-pointer-events/2013JanMar/0067.html and then Jacob replied. 16:07:32 AB: it appears the way forward is: a) to leave text as is for v1; and b) to add hover to the list of potential features for v2. 16:08:18 JR: I stated the right approach on the list 16:08:31 … think some experimentation is still needed here 16:08:38 … want a general solution 16:08:53 … Rick and I agree this is a tough problem to solve generally 16:09:08 … and that doing something in v2 may be the right thing to do 16:09:23 I also support punting any changes to v2. 16:09:29 MB: I support leaving current text as is and potentially doing something in v2 16:09:32 SG: agree 16:09:48 DS: fine with that but it should be called out because it is an Accessiblity issue 16:09:51 JR: that's fair 16:09:59 … I can add a related note 16:10:20 … identify the problem but note we don't have a solution 16:10:39 … Hover has always been an a11y issue 16:11:19 … It is worth noting PE doesn't fix nor this issue nor make it worse 16:11:39 AB: so Jacob will add some non-normative text 16:11:52 … and also close 20222 16:11:53 s/fix nor/fix/ 16:11:57 … is that correct? 16:11:59 JR: yes 16:12:07 ACTION: Jacob close bug 20222 per the 5-Feb-2013 resolution 16:12:07 Created ACTION-19 - Close bug 20222 per the 5-Feb-2013 resolution [on Jacob Rossi - due 2013-02-12]. 16:12:20 ACTION: Jacob add some non-normative text for 20222 16:12:20 Created ACTION-20 - Add some non-normative text for 20222 [on Jacob Rossi - due 2013-02-12]. 16:12:32 Topic: Transformed Pointer Coordinates? 16:12:41 AB: Doug Schepers  started the conversation via http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-pointer-events/2013JanMar/0046.html. Based on that discussion, Jacob opened a bug for the CSSOM View https://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=20832 spec. 16:13:16 AB: it appears there is nothing we need to do for the PE spec. Is that correct? 16:13:29 DS: yes, that's correct 16:13:41 … the result is that people have some ideas 16:13:56 … they agree it is not a PE issue but an issue for CSSOM spec 16:14:11 RESOLUTION: the "Transformed Pointer Coordinates" issue will be addressed in other specs (not the Pointer Events spec) 16:14:25 Topic: PE spec comments by Cathy 16:14:34 AB: Cathy asked some question about the PE spec http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-pointer-events/2013JanMar/0057.html 16:14:41 AB: Jacob replied yesterday http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-pointer-events/2013JanMar/0072.html. He suggests two comments are mostly editorial and he added two new bugs: 16:14:47 ... 1.  "PREVENT MOUSE EVENT flag should be per pointer type" https://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=20872 16:14:56 ... 2.  "Pointercancel should also implicitly release capture" https://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=20873 16:15:25 JR: this was good feedback 16:15:37 … I can walk through them 16:15:53 … #1 how many pointers can be the primary pointer at once 16:16:18 … there can in theory be many devices 16:16:34 … but in reality, don't see many devices used at once 16:17:11 q+ 16:17:14 … End up having mouse events fighting each other 16:17:27 … We considered device arbitration 16:17:32 … but we didn't go that route 16:18:37 DS: if a game has a tablet and 2 people and each person has an input device - does this work? 16:18:41 JR: absolutely 16:19:01 … primary gives UA a rule for multitouch to determine which device wins 16:20:08 DS: do you have some code to demonstrate this? If yes, that would be great to show during W3Conf 16:20:19 JR: ok; I can look into that 16:21:04 JR: if anyone has feedback on other scenarios like that, please send email 16:21:12 JR: ok, Cathy's comment #2 16:22:02 … the spec will need to be changed 16:22:17 … it's a simple change 16:22:33 … filed bug 20872 16:22:50 … https://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=20872 16:23:30 … I proposed changes in http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-pointer-events/2013JanMar/0072.html 16:23:46 Looks fine to me. 16:23:47 AB: any comments re Jacob's proposal for #2? 16:24:10 JR: re Cathy's comment #3 ... 16:24:29 … agree the text is a bit convoluted 16:24:35 … I can clarify this text 16:24:54 … I didn't open up a bug because the fix is relatively easy 16:25:03 JR: re Cathy's comment #4 16:25:44 … there is a scenario missing from the spec 16:25:55 … for pointer cancel 16:26:23 … I opened bug 20873 for that https://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=208723 16:26:45 … will make a simple text change to fix this 16:26:52 AB: sounds good to me 16:26:55 Correct link is https://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=20873 16:26:56 CC: yes, that's good 16:27:25 Topic: Pointer events – active buttons state & pen devices 16:27:30 AB: Tim Bannister asked about how PEs work with pen devices and buttons http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-pointer-events/2013JanMar/0052.html 16:27:35 AB: Jacob replied yesterday http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-pointer-events/2013JanMar/0069.html. 16:27:40 AB: it appears this was mostly a request for clarification and that no spec change is needed. Is that correct? 16:27:58 JR: yes 16:28:10 … I haven't seen the behaviour Tim described 16:28:18 … the button is just a modifier 16:28:31 AB: any comments? 16:28:40 … ok, then we consider that resolved 16:28:49 Topic: Pointer Events Open Bugs 16:28:55 AB: the only open bug http://tinyurl.com/Bugs-PointerEvents we haven't talked about is 20109 that Jacob reopened yesterday https://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=20109 16:29:06 ... Jacob's comment http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-pointer-events/2013JanMar/0073.html 16:29:35 JR: this is the mouse emulating pressure bug 16:30:09 … we realize that in most pen apps, for max pressure for the pen correlates to greather than normal stroke width 16:30:22 … half-pressure would be "normal" pressure 16:30:53 … if use something like Msft Paint, a line is .5 pressure 16:31:01 … We changed the spec about a month ago 16:31:11 … changed from .5 to 1 16:31:35 … Need to think about other properties e.g. tiltX, tiltY, width, height 16:31:58 … Can leave it up to impls to decide 16:32:17 … If we emulate one prop, we should emulate the other properties too 16:32:37 … We are proposing : mouse should be .5 rather 1 for pressue 16:32:57 … spec now use MAY for width and height and we think it should be SHOULD 16:33:33 MB: if max should be twice default pressure but in Msft doc it's 1.5 times 16:33:55 JR: the documentation is correct, I made an error in my e-mail 16:34:06 MB: ok, thanks 16:34:34 … I agree with the proposal to change this to SHOULD 16:34:43 … we need consistency with the defaults 16:34:56 … otherwise, get interop problems 16:35:14 … so having consistent defaults is a good idea 16:35:21 AB: any other comments 16:35:50 Rationale: If developers test only in browsers with a default value, they might not realize their program has a divide-by-zero bug or other bugs, in browsers without a nonzero default. 16:36:19 AB: so do we ask Jacob to change this now? 16:36:35 JR: I can make the change and then ask Rick and Olli if they have any concerns 16:37:17 ACTION: Jacob apply your proposed change to bug 20109 and ask the group for comments 16:37:17 Created ACTION-21 - Apply your proposed change to bug 20109 and ask the group for comments [on Jacob Rossi - due 2013-02-12]. 16:37:49 https://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=20217 16:37:53 AB: anything else on the spec before AoB 16:38:03 JR: re touch-action 16:38:06 You can find Rick's response http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-pointer-events/2013JanMar/0067.html 16:38:26 … Rick replied and was OK with the proposal 16:39:32 Topic: Any other Business 16:39:40 AB: re LC, it appears we have 3 open bugs (20109, 20872 and 20873). If we still want to get a LC published on Feb 19, we should be in a position to discuss this transition during our Feb 12 call. That means we need proposed fixes for these bugs `real soon now`. 16:40:29 AB: I think we are in pretty good shape 16:41:13 AV: we are still waiting for Rick's input on the context menu issue 16:41:18 AB: oh yes, good point 16:41:32 DS: can someone make sure Rick knows that? 16:41:41 AB: I already have an action to contact Rick 16:41:55 DS: would be good to get the bugs fixed as soon as we can 16:42:01 JR: yes, I'm on it 16:42:11 AB: if you have any comments regarding the IndieUI: Events 1.0 FPWD http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-pointer-events/2013JanMar/0059.html, please send them to public-indie-ui-comments @ w3.org. 16:43:23 AB: and news regarding implementations? 16:46:55 AV: call next week? 16:47:07 AB: yes, to record consensus to publish LC 16:47:19 DS: re W3Conf ... 16:47:31 q+ 16:47:35 … if people have implementation info we can share, that would be good 16:49:21 … would be good if JQuery would create a blog about their plans related to Pointer Events 16:49:34 … then Jacob could mention that during his presentation 16:49:43 … it would send a good message 16:50:01 SG: yes, I'll talk to others in jQuery 16:53:29 DS: are there any especially cool demos that Jacob could potentially use during his preso? 16:53:43 JR: yes, proposals welcome [and slides ;-)] 16:54:11 DS: think a two-player game would be nice 16:54:22 Air hockey, e.g. 16:54:38 JR: we worked with Atari on some games like pong and those games use pointer events 16:55:49 AV: what about a call on Feb 19? 16:56:00 AB: yes, that's fine with me 16:56:48 -Doug_Schepers 16:56:49 -Jacob_Rossi 16:56:49 -Cathy 16:56:51 -scott_gonzalez 16:57:02 -Matt_Brubeck 16:57:05 AB: so we will have a call next week if there is something to discuss other than a CfC to publish LC 16:57:30 … if LC is the only topic, I will use email and a short review period - like 1 or 2 days 16:57:35 -Art_Barstow 16:57:46 AB: meeting adjourned 16:57:50 RRSAgent, make minutes 16:57:50 I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2013/02/05-pointerevents-minutes.html ArtB 16:59:31 zakim, bye 16:59:31 leaving. As of this point the attendees were Art_Barstow, scott_gonzalez, Matt_Brubeck, [Microsoft], Doug_Schepers, Jacob_Rossi, Cathy 16:59:31 Zakim has left #pointerevents 17:17:01 rrsagent, bye 17:17:01 I see 4 open action items saved in http://www.w3.org/2013/02/05-pointerevents-actions.rdf : 17:17:01 ACTION: Rick reply to the "Making click/contextmenu use PointerEvent interface" thread [1] 17:17:01 recorded in http://www.w3.org/2013/02/05-pointerevents-irc#T16-06-31 17:17:01 ACTION: Jacob close bug 20222 per the 5-Feb-2013 resolution [2] 17:17:01 recorded in http://www.w3.org/2013/02/05-pointerevents-irc#T16-12-07 17:17:01 ACTION: Jacob add some non-normative text for 20222 [3] 17:17:01 recorded in http://www.w3.org/2013/02/05-pointerevents-irc#T16-12-20 17:17:01 ACTION: Jacob apply your proposed change to bug 20109 and ask the group for comments [4] 17:17:01 recorded in http://www.w3.org/2013/02/05-pointerevents-irc#T16-37-17