IRC log of ua on 2013-01-31

Timestamps are in UTC.

17:40:22 [RRSAgent]
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logging to
17:40:24 [trackbot]
RRSAgent, make logs public
17:40:24 [Zakim]
Zakim has joined #ua
17:40:26 [trackbot]
Zakim, this will be WAI_UAWG
17:40:26 [Zakim]
ok, trackbot; I see WAI_UAWG()1:00PM scheduled to start in 20 minutes
17:40:27 [trackbot]
Meeting: User Agent Accessibility Guidelines Working Group Teleconference
17:40:27 [trackbot]
Date: 31 January 2013
17:40:37 [allanj]
rrsagent, set logs public
17:40:45 [allanj]
regrets: Jeanne
17:41:02 [allanj]
Chair: JimAllan, KellyFord
17:42:11 [allanj]
new permanant links for the working drafts (no more dates!)
17:42:13 [allanj]
17:42:15 [allanj]
17:56:20 [kford]
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17:56:35 [kford]
zakim, agenda?
17:56:35 [Zakim]
I see nothing on the agenda
17:57:46 [kford]
Agenda+ conformance use cases for conformance scenarios (extensions, mobile apps, etc)
17:57:48 [kford]
17:57:49 [kford]
17:57:51 [kford] - new thoughts
17:57:52 [kford]
17:57:54 [kford]
Jim Allan, Accessibility Coordinator & Webmaste
17:58:19 [kford]
agenda+ Longer mfeb meetings
17:58:26 [kford]
rrsagent, make minutes
17:58:26 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate kford
18:00:43 [Jan]
Jan has joined #ua
18:01:01 [Jan]
zakim, code?
18:01:03 [Zakim]
the conference code is 82941 (tel:+1.617.761.6200, Jan
18:01:07 [Zakim]
WAI_UAWG()1:00PM has now started
18:01:14 [Zakim]
18:01:47 [Zakim]
18:01:48 [Greg]
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18:02:23 [Jan]
zakim, ??P7 is really Jan
18:02:23 [Zakim]
+Jan; got it
18:02:40 [Zakim]
18:03:27 [allanj]
zakim, [Microsoft] is really KellyFord
18:03:27 [Zakim]
+KellyFord; got it
18:03:45 [Zakim]
18:05:48 [sharper]
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18:06:57 [KimPatch]
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18:07:47 [Zakim]
18:08:26 [allanj]
Agenda+ conformance use cases for conformance scenarios (extensions, mobile apps, etc)
18:08:27 [Eric_Hansen]
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18:08:30 [sharper]
anyone having zakim problems
18:08:37 [sharper]
it says 82941# is not valid
18:09:00 [allanj]
all seems fine on this end. Jeanne is not available to fix.
18:09:12 [sharper]
OK so not happening on viop
18:09:25 [allanj]
that is the number I used
18:09:46 [Zakim]
18:09:55 [sharper]
zakim, ??P0 is sharper
18:09:55 [Zakim]
+sharper; got it
18:11:18 [allanj]
Latest editor's draft - it will always be the latest version.
18:11:31 [Zakim]
18:11:54 [Zakim]
18:12:39 [kford]
zakim, microsoft is kford
18:12:39 [Zakim]
+kford; got it
18:12:44 [kford]
scribe: kford
18:12:52 [kford]
rrsagent, make minutes
18:12:52 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate kford
18:13:00 [kford]
Regrets: Jeanne
18:13:20 [kford]
Chair: Jim_allan_Kelly Ford
18:13:24 [kford]
JA: Just a few notes
18:14:09 [allanj] from the A!!y HTML5 Taslforce
18:14:12 [kford]
JA: Will get to EH comments next week. Three bugs from HTML task force I think we can close.
18:15:19 [kford]
JA goes over bugs.
18:16:45 [kford]
JA will write up comments and send to group and HTML5 task force
18:16:55 [allanj]
18:18:09 [kford]
KP: We are going to be working on more examples next Friday 2/8 starting at 9A eastern
18:19:12 [allanj]
Indie UI needs a review
18:20:44 [allanj]
any comments welcome
18:21:49 [kford]
zakim, take up item `1
18:21:49 [Zakim]
'\`1' does not match any agenda item, kford
18:21:55 [kford]
zakim, take up item 1
18:21:55 [Zakim]
agendum 1. "conformance use cases for conformance scenarios (extensions, mobile apps, etc)" taken up [from kford]
18:22:25 [allanj]
UAAG 10 conformance
18:24:25 [kford]
JA going over history of discussion here.
18:26:36 [Jan]
18:26:42 [Jan]
(GL's email)
18:28:16 [allanj]
*NA:* Not Applicable:
18:28:18 [allanj]
1. *NA-Component:* not applicable to the limited functionality provided by this user agent component, plug-in, or extension (e.g. SC relating to rendering content would not apply to a browser extension that adds additional menu commands but does not itself render any content)
18:28:19 [allanj]
2. *NA-Input:* not applicable due to a constrained input set (e.g. an application that reads flight data in XML format from a corporate server, or a help system that only displays HTML files included with the product)
18:28:21 [allanj]
3. *NA-Platform:* not applicable due constraints of the platform (e.g. color handling when the browser is run on a monochrome device, audio handling on a silent device, video handling on a interactive voice response browser, or interprocess communication on an operating system that does not support multitasking)
18:28:23 [allanj]
4. *NA-Desgn:* not applicable due to intentionally limited output modalities (e.g. video handling in a browser that only does audio output even though the platform might support video)
18:29:06 [Greg]
And there may be other acceptable reasons for a N/A answer, but they must be chosen from a limited set of allowable rationales.
18:34:05 [kford]
Group continuing to talk about conformance, sorting out how to handle things that the user agent doesn't recognize.
18:34:35 [kford]
JAN talks about some techniques in ATAG that basically you are only responsible for what you can control i.e. if you don't recognize it you are not able to control.
18:34:46 [allanj]
action: Jim to review 'recognized' in SC to make a top level statement similar to device independence at the beginning of the document - perhaps an applicability note.
18:34:46 [trackbot]
Created ACTION-798 - Review 'recognized' in SC to make a top level statement similar to device independence at the beginning of the document - perhaps an applicability note. [on Jim Allan - due 2013-02-07].
18:35:44 [Jan]
Example of ATAG 2.0 conformance applicability note:
18:35:54 [Greg]
Note that it's important to define recognized, whether it's in the Conformance section or each SC, to ensure it can't just be developer choice not to recognize something that technically they could recognize.
18:37:45 [allanj]
what if the UA does not comply with an SC, what do they say...
18:37:57 [allanj]
from greg: *NC:* Not Compliant:
18:37:58 [allanj]
1. *NC-Potential:* not compliant but in theory a third party could make it compliant using documented and supported techniques (e.g. the product's extension architecture readily allows adding the required feature; this is also allowed if the source is made available and the claimant believes it could be modified to add compliance with less than one person-week of effort, thus giving...
18:38:00 [allanj]
...incentive for open source
18:38:03 [allanj]
2. *NC-Unsupported:* may be compliant but not using documented and supported techniques
18:38:04 [allanj]
3. *NC-Impossible:* not compliant even with undocumented and unsupported techniques
18:38:27 [kford]
KP: Could you say compliant as one thing or say I'm compliant if you add other pieces.
18:38:40 [kford]
KP: Or say I'm not compliant because of x.
18:40:33 [allanj_]
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18:42:16 [kford]
JAN talks about cases where you don't want to name a specific extension
18:42:31 [kford]
JA: Extensions might also go away
18:43:15 [kford]
EH: We have a choice about how much effort to put into full conformance versus partial.
18:43:32 [kford]
EH: My guess is that if we get full right maybe the partial will fall into shape.
18:47:32 [allanj]
you can make a conformance claim of UA versionx, with extension foo and fubb. when a new version is out a new conformance claim is necessary
18:48:10 [kford]
KP: If we require compliance with an extension we should have a video example to see how it works.
18:53:17 [allanj]
discussion of percentages.
18:54:14 [allanj]
kf: percentages make it hard and complex when factoring in easy/complex SCs
18:55:57 [kford]
JA: Seems like we have agreement on compliance as follows:
18:56:00 [Greg]
My suggestion for telling them to include the percentage of SC for each level that they comply with, is not to substitute for what we have now ("100% of Level A" and the like) but merely to add some additional information that may be useful to the reader.
18:56:07 [kford]
1. these are the SC I comply with.
18:56:16 [kford]
2. These are the ones that are not applicable.
18:56:25 [kford]
3. These are the ones I don't comply with.
19:00:34 [allanj]
eric brings up
19:04:27 [kford]
More discussion about extensions and what kind of conformance claims they can submit.
19:05:00 [kford]
GL: I want to have a small conformacne claim for my extension because it only does this one thing. I don't have the ability to test it with all of a browser.
19:06:41 [allanj]
19:06:56 [Greg]
That is, I don't have the resources to *test* the entire browser that hosts me, in order to submit a conformance claim for the combination of it plus my extension.
19:07:16 [Greg]
s/hosts me/hosts my extension/
19:09:33 [kford]
More discussion of user agents and what they consist of.
19:11:35 [allanj]
rrsagent, make minutes
19:11:35 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate allanj
19:11:56 [allanj]
kf: what do we need to do to make a resolution.
19:22:20 [kford]
Group has more discussion around user agents, such as those embeded as part of web pages.
19:22:46 [Greg]
Examples of web-based user agents: Google Translate, and Google's "Quick View" of PDFs on the web. In both cases, all the UI is presented as HTML for the user's web browser to render.
19:26:53 [allanj]
Web-base UA seems an edge case. if we are working this hare to even define it, perhaps we should eliminate it.
19:27:35 [allanj]
19:29:17 [Zakim]
19:29:47 [kford]
More talk about user agents.
19:30:01 [allanj]
web-based text editors. written in JS but rendered by the UA. xStandard, ckEditor.
19:30:06 [kford]
Emphasizing web based user agents.
19:30:51 [allanj]
this could also be canvas.
19:31:29 [Zakim]
19:32:50 [sharper]
19:33:28 [sharper]
19:33:33 [Greg]
Another example of a web-based authoring tool/user agent is
19:34:08 [sharper]
19:34:23 [allanj] is an IDE for writing Javascript.
19:34:33 [sharper]
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19:35:49 [allanj]
for next week
19:35:56 [allanj]
extended telecon
19:36:02 [allanj]
eric comments
19:36:06 [allanj]
19:36:48 [allanj]
a11y taskforce bugs
19:37:04 [allanj]
indie ui comments
19:37:42 [Zakim]
19:37:44 [Zakim]
19:37:45 [Zakim]
19:37:46 [allanj]
rrsagent, make minutes
19:37:46 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate allanj
19:38:11 [allanj]
zakim, who is here
19:38:11 [Zakim]
allanj, you need to end that query with '?'
19:38:15 [allanj]
zakim, who is here?
19:38:15 [Zakim]
On the phone I see Jim_Allan, kford
19:38:17 [Zakim]
On IRC I see allanj, Eric_Hansen, KimPatch, Greg, kford, Zakim, RRSAgent, trackbot
19:39:07 [allanj]
zakim, please part
19:39:07 [Zakim]
leaving. As of this point the attendees were Jim_Allan, Jan, EricHansen, KellyFord, Greg_Lowney, Kim_Patch, sharper, kford
19:39:08 [Zakim]
Zakim has left #ua
19:39:20 [allanj]
rrsagent, make minutes
19:39:20 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate allanj
19:39:35 [allanj]
rrsagent, please part
19:39:35 [RRSAgent]
I see 1 open action item saved in :
19:39:35 [RRSAgent]
ACTION: Jim to review 'recognized' in SC to make a top level statement similar to device independence at the beginning of the document - perhaps an applicability note. [1]
19:39:35 [RRSAgent]
recorded in