15:53:14 <RRSAgent> RRSAgent has joined #prov
15:53:14 <RRSAgent> logging to http://www.w3.org/2013/01/31-prov-irc
15:53:16 <trackbot> RRSAgent, make logs world
15:53:16 <Zakim> Zakim has joined #prov
15:53:18 <trackbot> Zakim, this will be PROV
15:53:18 <Zakim> ok, trackbot; I see SW_(PROV)11:00AM scheduled to start in 7 minutes
15:53:19 <trackbot> Meeting: Provenance Working Group Teleconference
15:53:19 <trackbot> Date: 31 January 2013
15:53:19 <Luc> Zakim, this will be PROV
15:53:20 <Zakim> ok, Luc; I see SW_(PROV)11:00AM scheduled to start in 7 minutes
15:53:34 <Luc> Agenda: http://www.w3.org/2011/prov/wiki/Meetings:Telecon2013.01.31
15:53:43 <Luc> Chair: Luc Moreau
15:53:49 <Luc> rrsagent, make logs public
15:54:02 <Luc> Regrets: Simon Miles, Tom De Nies
15:54:34 <lebot> lebot has joined #prov
15:55:02 <Paolo> Paolo has joined #prov
15:56:56 <pgroth> pgroth has joined #prov
15:57:30 <Zakim> SW_(PROV)11:00AM has now started
15:57:37 <Zakim> +[IPcaller]
15:57:40 <pgroth> Zakim, who is on the phone?
15:57:40 <Zakim> On the phone I see [IPcaller]
15:57:48 <pgroth> Zakim, [IPcaller] is me
15:57:48 <Zakim> +pgroth; got it
15:57:57 <Zakim> +[IPcaller]
15:59:13 <Paolo> do you still need a scribe
15:59:19 <Zakim> +Luc
15:59:38 <Luc> yes paolo
15:59:42 <Paolo> ok
15:59:45 <Zakim> +[IPcaller.a]
15:59:52 <jcheney> jcheney has joined #prov
15:59:54 <Luc> can you do it? it's all set up
16:00:03 <Luc> scribe: Paolo Missier
16:00:05 <stain> Zakim, [IPcaller.a] is me
16:00:07 <Zakim> +stain; got it
16:00:18 <ivan> zakim, dial ivan-voip
16:00:19 <Zakim> ok, ivan; the call is being made
16:00:19 <Zakim> +Ivan
16:00:24 <Zakim> + +44.131.651.aaaa
16:00:28 <stain> I didn't know it could do outgoing!
16:00:29 <jcheney> zakim, aaaa is me
16:00:29 <Zakim> +jcheney; got it
16:00:31 <Curt> Curt has joined #prov
16:00:49 <GK1> GK1 has joined #prov
16:00:58 <dgarijo> dgarijo has joined #prov
16:01:06 <Zakim> + +1.315.941.aabb
16:01:13 <lebot> zakim, I am aabb
16:01:13 <Zakim> +lebot; got it
16:01:19 <Luc> topic: Admin
16:01:33 <hook> hook has joined #prov
16:01:33 <Zakim> +??P5
16:01:34 <Zakim> +??P27
16:01:42 <dgarijo> Zakim, ??P5 is me
16:01:42 <Zakim> +dgarijo; got it
16:02:10 <Luc> Proposed: To approve the Minutes of Jan. 24, 2013
16:02:12 <lebot> +1
16:02:13 <stain> http://www.w3.org/2011/prov/meeting/2013-01-17
16:02:18 <dgarijo> +1
16:02:20 <Zakim> +Curt_Tilmes
16:02:23 <Paolo> +1
16:02:23 <GK1> +0 (not present)
16:02:24 <hook> +1
16:02:27 <Curt> +1
16:02:29 <stain> +1
16:02:29 <ivan> 0 (not present)
16:02:38 <jcheney> that link is from 2 weeks ago
16:02:47 <GK1> zakim, ??p27 is me
16:02:47 <Zakim> +GK1; got it
16:02:48 <Curt> http://www.w3.org/2011/prov/meeting/2013-01-24
16:02:49 <stain> http://www.w3.org/2011/prov/meeting/2013-01-24
16:02:56 <jcheney> +1
16:02:58 <Luc> Accepted: the Minutes of Jan. 24, 2013
16:03:01 <GK> GK has joined #prov
16:03:05 <stain> I clicked Agendwa in topic you see
16:03:17 <Zakim> + +1.818.731.aacc
16:03:39 <pgroth> done
16:03:40 <stain> stain has changed the topic to: /topic *
16:03:49 <stain> stain has changed the topic to: Agenda: http://www.w3.org/2011/prov/wiki/Meetings:Telecon2013.01.31
16:04:02 <Luc> Topic: WG Implementations
16:04:04 <pgroth> q+
16:04:13 <Paolo> action 162 to be closed
16:04:13 <trackbot> Error finding '162'. You can review and register nicknames at <http://www.w3.org/2011/prov/track/users>.
16:04:22 <Paolo> (oops sorry)
16:04:39 <pgroth> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-prov-wg/2013Jan/0153.html
16:04:56 <Paolo> pgroth: deeper analysis of current implementations
16:05:18 <Paolo> pgroth: do we meet out exit criteria?
16:05:27 <Paolo> pgroth: PROV-O no problem
16:05:27 <Luc> http://www.w3.org/2011/prov/wiki/ProvCRExitCriteria
16:06:07 <Paolo> pgroth: PROV-N: we do meet our exit criteria, 2 kinds of apps implementation, have a vocabulary usage that covers the additional features
16:06:12 <Luc> q?
16:06:16 <pgroth> q-
16:06:18 <Paolo> pgroth: so we can conclude we do have impl. that interoperate with PROV-N
16:06:43 <Paolo> pgroth: PROV-CONSTRAINTS: we meet the criteria here too, with caveats:
16:07:18 <jcheney> stephen and I are working on a prolog impl, hoping to have something ready to go today or tomorrow
16:07:19 <Paolo> pgroth: one implementation has one test case not passing. That is one short of the total required
16:07:22 <khalidBelhajjame> khalidBelhajjame has joined #prov
16:07:27 <Paolo> pgroth: Ivan to look at it, probably ok
16:07:31 <jcheney> but need xml-valid prov-xml examples
16:07:36 <TomDN> TomDN has joined #prov
16:07:39 <jcheney> (stephen cresswell)
16:07:50 <Paolo> pgroth: it would look better if we had one more implementation
16:07:54 <Zakim> +[IPcaller.a]
16:07:55 <Zakim> +[IPcaller.aa]
16:08:02 <zednik> zednik has joined #prov
16:08:06 <Paolo> pgroth: on the other hand, it's the hardest of the docs to implement
16:08:07 <Zakim> +??P17
16:08:09 <khalidBelhajjame> zakim, [IPcaller.a] is me
16:08:09 <Zakim> +khalidBelhajjame; got it
16:08:39 <satya> satya has joined #prov
16:08:39 <Dong> Dong has joined #prov
16:08:44 <Luc> which one is failing?
16:09:03 <Paolo> ivan: what is the issue with the one failing test case?
16:09:16 <Zakim> +Satya_Sahoo
16:09:28 <Paolo> pgroth: has to do with bnodes, could probably be fixed
16:09:39 <Luc> q+
16:09:41 <Zakim> +??P31
16:10:02 <Paolo> ivan: there will be a need to explain as to why we don't pass all tests
16:10:03 <lebot> q+ to propose that pgroth bangs head :-)
16:10:06 <lebot> q-
16:10:08 <TomDN> Zakim, +??P31 is probably me
16:10:09 <Zakim> sorry, TomDN, I do not understand your question
16:10:12 <jcheney> heh heh
16:10:20 <Paolo> Luc: the exit criteria don't define the tests -- we are free to define the test set
16:10:25 <TomDN> Zakim, P31 is  me
16:10:25 <Zakim> sorry, TomDN, I do not recognize a party named 'P31'
16:10:33 <TomDN> Zakim, +??P31 is  me
16:10:33 <Zakim> sorry, TomDN, I do not recognize a party named '+??P31'
16:10:51 <Paolo> Luc: can the test itself be rephrased?
16:10:53 <pgroth> prov-dm-ex23_start-PASS.ttl
16:11:24 <TomDN> Zakim, who is on the phone?
16:11:24 <Zakim> On the phone I see pgroth, [IPcaller], Luc, stain, Ivan, jcheney, lebot, dgarijo, GK1, Curt_Tilmes, +1.818.731.aacc, khalidBelhajjame, [IPcaller.aa], ??P17, Satya_Sahoo, ??P31
16:11:38 <TomDN> Zakim, ??P31 is me
16:11:38 <Zakim> +TomDN; got it
16:12:00 <Paolo> Luc: this has been discussed elsewhere and there seems to be an easy way to fix the problem in the test case
16:12:21 <lebot> +1000 to using URIs over bnodes.
16:12:52 <Paolo> Luc: propose to change the ttl example to use explicit URIs, that will take care of it
16:13:35 <Paolo> Luc: pgroth has indicated 6-7 features that are not exchanged using the prov representation. this is about prov-n
16:13:48 <Paolo> Luc: how do we know that all features have been exchanged in prov-o?
16:14:12 <Paolo> pgroth: two implementations have reported that -- simon's and Luc's.
16:15:06 <Paolo> Luc: then propose to use the same example for prov-n -- one produces prov-n, the other consumes prov-n
16:15:19 <TomDN> neither do I
16:16:14 <Paolo> pgroth: the two impl, should be independent so using two from soton won't work
16:16:42 <Paolo> Luc: are we fine then wrt prov-n?
16:17:05 <TomDN> The problem is: if I want to support all of prov-n, I could just use the ProvToolbox
16:17:52 <pgroth> q+
16:18:00 <Luc> ack luc
16:18:42 <Paolo> pgroth: majority of prov-n is consumed by two independent impl., but not all features are coverd by each implementation -- does that have a bearing on interop?
16:19:12 <Paolo> pgroth: different people use different combinations of features
16:19:58 <Paolo> pgroth: so comfortable that they are interchangeable, but do we need to be stricter than that about the exit criteria?
16:20:01 <Luc> q?
16:20:17 <Luc> ack  pg
16:20:48 <GK> I don't think there should be a requirement for single implementation that does everything.  Each feature should be implementable (interoperably) by some pair of implementations.
16:21:01 <stain> I was hacking together a PROV-DM "API" in Clojure, but struggled with PROV-N parsing as EBNF is so many things and not something you can just throw at a parser library without massaging first
16:22:26 <Paolo> Luc: TomDN can you export more features than you do now?
16:22:52 <Paolo> TomDN: not much sense because the app is about reconstructing provenance --
16:22:55 <Luc> q?
16:23:12 <Luc> topic: cr exit
16:23:29 <Paolo> Luc: time to writing up the implementation report
16:23:29 <pgroth> that's me
16:23:47 <Dong> yes
16:23:56 <jcheney> q+
16:23:59 <Paolo> Luc: proposed authors: Dong zednik pgroth
16:24:32 <pgroth> q+
16:24:34 <Paolo> jcheney: XML test cases: xml examples not all valid, so not all can be parsed
16:24:43 <Dong> I can fix those
16:24:55 <Paolo> Luc: it should be possible to fix them
16:25:06 <Luc> q?
16:25:17 <pgroth> ack pgroth