IRC log of eval on 2013-01-31
Timestamps are in UTC.
- 14:54:58 [RRSAgent]
- RRSAgent has joined #eval
- 14:54:58 [RRSAgent]
- logging to http://www.w3.org/2013/01/31-eval-irc
- 14:55:00 [trackbot]
- RRSAgent, make logs world
- 14:55:02 [trackbot]
- Zakim, this will be 3825
- 14:55:02 [Zakim]
- ok, trackbot; I see WAI_ERTWG(Eval TF)10:00AM scheduled to start in 5 minutes
- 14:55:03 [trackbot]
- Meeting: WCAG 2.0 Evaluation Methodology Task Force Teleconference
- 14:55:03 [trackbot]
- Date: 31 January 2013
- 14:55:19 [shadi]
- zakim, this will be eval
- 14:55:19 [Zakim]
- ok, shadi; I see WAI_ERTWG(Eval TF)10:00AM scheduled to start in 5 minutes
- 14:55:36 [Zakim]
- WAI_ERTWG(Eval TF)10:00AM has now started
- 14:55:43 [Zakim]
- +Shadi
- 14:55:58 [ericvelleman]
- ericvelleman has joined #eval
- 14:56:22 [Zakim]
- +[IPcaller]
- 14:56:31 [Vivienne]
- Zakim, IPcaller is me
- 14:56:31 [Zakim]
- +Vivienne; got it
- 14:57:02 [Zakim]
- +Eric
- 14:58:04 [Zakim]
- +MartijnHoutepen
- 14:58:26 [MartijnHoutepen]
- agenda?
- 14:58:36 [Liz]
- Liz has joined #eval
- 14:59:11 [MartijnHoutepen]
- Zakim, please clear the agenda
- 14:59:11 [Zakim]
- agenda cleared
- 14:59:27 [MartijnHoutepen]
- agenda+ Welcome
- 14:59:35 [MartijnHoutepen]
- agenda+ new editor draft
- 14:59:37 [Zakim]
- + +1.301.975.aaaa
- 14:59:37 [Ryladog]
- Ryladog has joined #eval
- 14:59:48 [MartijnHoutepen]
- agenda+ survey 7 and 8
- 14:59:57 [MartijnHoutepen]
- agenda+ combining evaluations
- 15:00:08 [MartijnHoutepen]
- agenda+ make sampling optional
- 15:00:16 [MartijnHoutepen]
- agenda+ definition of random
- 15:00:23 [MartijnHoutepen]
- agenda+ size of sample
- 15:00:29 [MartijnHoutepen]
- agenda+ other issues
- 15:00:38 [Detlev]
- Detlev has joined #eval
- 15:00:43 [MartijnHoutepen]
- Zakim, please mute me
- 15:00:43 [Zakim]
- MartijnHoutepen should now be muted
- 15:00:45 [Zakim]
- +Katie_Haritos_Shea
- 15:00:53 [MartijnHoutepen]
- ack me
- 15:01:15 [Zakim]
- +Detlev
- 15:01:56 [MartijnHoutepen]
- scribenick: MartijnHoutepen
- 15:02:03 [MartijnHoutepen]
- Zakim, mute me
- 15:02:03 [Zakim]
- MartijnHoutepen should now be muted
- 15:02:14 [MartijnHoutepen]
- Zakim, take up first
- 15:02:14 [Zakim]
- I don't understand 'take up first', MartijnHoutepen
- 15:02:18 [MartijnHoutepen]
- Zakim, take up next
- 15:02:18 [Zakim]
- agendum 1. "Welcome" taken up [from MartijnHoutepen]
- 15:02:27 [MartijnHoutepen]
- Zakim, close agendum 1
- 15:02:27 [Zakim]
- agendum 1, Welcome, closed
- 15:02:28 [Zakim]
- I see 6 items remaining on the agenda; the next one is
- 15:02:28 [Zakim]
- 2. new editor draft [from MartijnHoutepen]
- 15:02:36 [MartijnHoutepen]
- zakim, take up next
- 15:02:37 [Zakim]
- agendum 2. "new editor draft" taken up [from MartijnHoutepen]
- 15:03:31 [MartijnHoutepen]
- EV: new editor draft and disposition of comments are up, latest version 28th jan.
- 15:04:24 [MartijnHoutepen]
- EV: almost all of the comments are adressed
- 15:05:14 [ericvelleman]
- q?
- 15:05:19 [MartijnHoutepen]
- Zakim, take up next
- 15:05:19 [Zakim]
- agendum 3. "survey 7 and 8" taken up [from MartijnHoutepen]
- 15:05:45 [MartijnHoutepen]
- EV: survey 7 closed, survey 8 opened last tuesday
- 15:05:47 [shadi]
- zakim, who is on the phone?
- 15:05:47 [Zakim]
- On the phone I see Shadi, Vivienne, Eric, MartijnHoutepen (muted), +1.301.975.aaaa, Katie_Haritos_Shea, Detlev
- 15:06:02 [shadi]
- zakim, aaaa is Liz
- 15:06:02 [Zakim]
- +Liz; got it
- 15:06:10 [MartijnHoutepen]
- EV: hope to publish new editor draft monday
- 15:06:45 [MartijnHoutepen]
- EV: things accepted in surveys will be included in next ED
- 15:07:12 [Detlev]
- Zakim, mute me
- 15:07:12 [Zakim]
- Detlev should now be muted
- 15:07:15 [ericvelleman]
- q?
- 15:07:22 [Vivienne]
- zakim, mute me
- 15:07:22 [Zakim]
- Vivienne should now be muted
- 15:07:45 [MartijnHoutepen]
- EV: survey open until Saturday evening
- 15:08:23 [MartijnHoutepen]
- Zakim, take up next
- 15:08:23 [Zakim]
- agendum 5. "make sampling optional" taken up [from MartijnHoutepen]
- 15:09:04 [Zakim]
- -Eric
- 15:09:10 [MartijnHoutepen]
- Zakim, take up agendum 4
- 15:09:10 [Zakim]
- agendum 4. "combining evaluations" taken up [from MartijnHoutepen]
- 15:09:26 [MartijnHoutepen]
- ack me
- 15:09:26 [Vivienne]
- q+
- 15:10:17 [MartijnHoutepen]
- Zakim, mute me
- 15:10:17 [Zakim]
- MartijnHoutepen should now be muted
- 15:10:20 [ericvelleman]
- Hi, phone just stopped, calling in now
- 15:10:37 [Zakim]
- +Eric
- 15:11:42 [MartijnHoutepen]
- EV: ongoing discussion about combining evaluations
- 15:12:03 [ericvelleman]
- q?
- 15:12:06 [Vivienne]
- ack me
- 15:12:10 [MartijnHoutepen]
- EV: does Accessibility support need to be uniform on a website?
- 15:12:47 [Zakim]
- +Mike_Elledge
- 15:13:26 [ericvelleman]
- q?
- 15:13:30 [Detlev]
- q+
- 15:13:32 [Ryladog]
- q+
- 15:13:36 [MartijnHoutepen]
- VC: It will be hard to qualify, especially with different evaluators that don't agree with each other in a crosschecking situation
- 15:13:52 [Mike_Elledge]
- Mike_Elledge has joined #eval
- 15:13:53 [Detlev]
- ack me
- 15:13:56 [Vivienne]
- zakim, mute me
- 15:13:56 [Zakim]
- Vivienne should now be muted
- 15:13:58 [MartijnHoutepen]
- VC: Concerned about conflicting results
- 15:14:37 [MartijnHoutepen]
- DF: David MacDonald pointed out the difference between support amongst Assistive Technologies
- 15:16:11 [Detlev]
- Zakim, mute me
- 15:16:11 [Zakim]
- Detlev should now be muted
- 15:16:30 [MartijnHoutepen]
- DF: if some AT does not support some accessible function, it shouldnt be wrong because some AT does not support it
- 15:16:38 [ericvelleman]
- q?
- 15:17:35 [Zakim]
- -MartijnHoutepen
- 15:17:40 [MartijnHoutepen]
- KHS: the code is more important than the AT used, necessary to document what is used
- 15:17:51 [MartijnHoutepen]
- My line is gone, can someone scribe?
- 15:18:10 [MartijnHoutepen]
- dialing in again
- 15:18:21 [Zakim]
- +MartijnHoutepen
- 15:18:34 [MartijnHoutepen]
- Zakim, mute me
- 15:18:34 [Zakim]
- MartijnHoutepen should now be muted
- 15:19:08 [ericvelleman]
- q?
- 15:19:13 [MartijnHoutepen]
- KHS: vitally important to identify all tools, AT, UA, OS
- 15:19:13 [Detlev]
- q+
- 15:19:58 [Detlev]
- ack me
- 15:20:00 [MartijnHoutepen]
- KHS: if semantics are properly programmed, that is more important than tools, at
- 15:20:10 [MartijnHoutepen]
- q- R
- 15:21:17 [Ryladog]
- q+
- 15:21:25 [MartijnHoutepen]
- DF: very hard to define what AT you have to use per SC, and probably double work. Some criteria are easy to check on the basis of code
- 15:21:47 [Detlev]
- Zakim, mute me
- 15:21:47 [Zakim]
- Detlev should now be muted
- 15:22:23 [MartijnHoutepen]
- EV: we can add "require evaluators to describe what AT, etc they use"
- 15:22:49 [shadi]
- regrets: Kathy, Peter, Alistair, Ramon, Roberto, Moe
- 15:23:28 [Mike_Elledge]
- q+
- 15:23:32 [MartijnHoutepen]
- KHS: you don't need to test every criteria with every tool
- 15:23:33 [Detlev]
- agree
- 15:23:35 [shadi]
- q+
- 15:23:41 [shadi]
- q- ry
- 15:23:57 [ericvelleman]
- q?
- 15:24:03 [shadi]
- ack m
- 15:24:18 [MartijnHoutepen]
- EV: finish this discussion on list, as we seem to agree, will make a text suggestion
- 15:24:57 [Detlev]
- q+
- 15:25:29 [Sarah_Swierenga]
- Sarah_Swierenga has joined #eval
- 15:25:37 [MartijnHoutepen]
- ME: we can maybe define the types of tools that can be used during evaluation
- 15:25:51 [shadi]
- ack me
- 15:25:51 [ericvelleman]
- q?
- 15:26:00 [Zakim]
- +Sarah_Swierenga
- 15:26:30 [MartijnHoutepen]
- SAZ: not sure it is feasible to require to report every tool used per check
- 15:27:08 [MartijnHoutepen]
- SAZ: It can be an option for reporting
- 15:27:17 [shadi]
- http://www.w3.org/WAI/ER/conformance/ED-methodology-20130128#step1d
- 15:28:10 [ericvelleman]
- q?
- 15:28:17 [MartijnHoutepen]
- SAZ: natural part of evaluation to define and document tools used
- 15:28:35 [Detlev]
- ack me
- 15:29:17 [MartijnHoutepen]
- DF: there is a certain risk if you define the tools used, if you do not use every tool on every sc
- 15:30:02 [ericvelleman]
- q?
- 15:30:02 [MartijnHoutepen]
- DF: We make comments describing interesting finds with AT
- 15:30:23 [Detlev]
- Zakim, mute me
- 15:30:23 [Zakim]
- Detlev should now be muted
- 15:30:40 [Ryladog]
- q+
- 15:30:41 [MartijnHoutepen]
- EV: I will suggest a text on the list
- 15:31:38 [Tim]
- Tim has joined #eval
- 15:31:43 [Detlev]
- skip link - sure - thats part of the check in the technique!
- 15:32:15 [MartijnHoutepen]
- KHS: important to also report the findings with AT and additional checks
- 15:32:26 [Ryladog]
- q+
- 15:32:28 [Zakim]
- -MartijnHoutepen
- 15:32:40 [MartijnHoutepen]
- I am disconnected again
- 15:33:06 [Zakim]
- +MartijnHoutepen
- 15:33:17 [shadi]
- q+
- 15:33:17 [MartijnHoutepen]
- Zakim, mute me
- 15:33:18 [Zakim]
- MartijnHoutepen should now be muted
- 15:33:45 [ericvelleman]
- Eric will make a proposal on the list. Please review and comment the coming days so we can include it into the next editor draft
- 15:34:11 [MartijnHoutepen]
- KHS: do not prescribe that evaluators have to use it, but if you use it
- 15:34:12 [shadi]
- ack ry
- 15:34:15 [shadi]
- ack me
- 15:35:39 [MartijnHoutepen]
- SAZ: if step 1d would be : "define the tools / methods to be used (optional)"
- 15:35:59 [MartijnHoutepen]
- SAZ: or combine 3.1.4 and 3.1.5
- 15:37:06 [MartijnHoutepen]
- EV: see 3.4.5 step 4e
- 15:38:04 [Detlev]
- q+
- 15:38:10 [shadi]
- http://www.w3.org/WAI/ER/conformance/ED-methodology-20130128#step4e
- 15:38:24 [MartijnHoutepen]
- SAZ: step 4e may indeed be a better place
- 15:39:04 [ericvelleman]
- q?
- 15:39:07 [MartijnHoutepen]
- EV: refer back to it from 5a (reporting)
- 15:39:08 [Detlev]
- ack me
- 15:39:14 [Zakim]
- +Tim_Boland
- 15:39:57 [MartijnHoutepen]
- DF: detailed report: would you have to register every check for every page for every SC
- 15:40:59 [MartijnHoutepen]
- EV: good question, we do not adress this yet
- 15:41:09 [shadi]
- zakim, mute me
- 15:41:09 [Zakim]
- Shadi should now be muted
- 15:42:12 [MartijnHoutepen]
- KHS: raises the bar, but may be in the hands of the evaluation commissioner
- 15:42:50 [Detlev]
- Zakim, mute me
- 15:42:50 [Zakim]
- Detlev should now be muted
- 15:43:18 [ericvelleman]
- q?
- 15:43:42 [MartijnHoutepen]
- EV: i will check if we have the same sort of issue in more places in the document
- 15:43:56 [shadi]
- ack me
- 15:44:35 [MartijnHoutepen]
- Zakim, take up agendum 5
- 15:44:35 [Zakim]
- agendum 5. "make sampling optional" taken up [from MartijnHoutepen]
- 15:45:23 [MartijnHoutepen]
- EV: do we make random sampling optional?
- 15:45:38 [ericvelleman]
- q?
- 15:45:40 [Detlev]
- q+
- 15:45:44 [Detlev]
- ack me
- 15:45:47 [MartijnHoutepen]
- EV: proposed resolution: keep non-optional for now
- 15:45:48 [Ryladog]
- q+
- 15:46:37 [shadi]
- q+
- 15:46:43 [MartijnHoutepen]
- DF: We need to define 'random'
- 15:47:03 [MartijnHoutepen]
- DF: if we keep it easy i do not object to keeping it non-optional
- 15:47:46 [ericvelleman]
- q?
- 15:47:47 [Detlev]
- Zakim, mute me
- 15:47:47 [Zakim]
- Detlev should now be muted
- 15:47:58 [MartijnHoutepen]
- EV: few topics on the list
- 15:48:03 [Detlev]
- Martijn: I'm fine with *not* defining randim it if the process as straightforward as suggrsted by Richard
- 15:48:14 [MartijnHoutepen]
- KHS: this can go hand in hand with the level of detail of testing
- 15:49:22 [shadi]
- ack ry
- 15:49:24 [shadi]
- ack me
- 15:50:03 [MartijnHoutepen]
- SAZ: Detlev suggested to move away from terminology s.a. random, sample
- 15:50:32 [MartijnHoutepen]
- SAZ: we might take a more pragmatic approach: make it random-like
- 15:50:51 [MartijnHoutepen]
- SAZ: different websites need different approaches
- 15:51:10 [Detlev]
- "targeted heuristics"
- 15:51:57 [ericvelleman]
- q?
- 15:52:56 [MartijnHoutepen]
- EV: discussion going on on the list, multiple threads
- 15:53:35 [MartijnHoutepen]
- EV: i propose a non-statistical way, at least for the next working draft and following test-run
- 15:53:44 [Detlev]
- I was basically just playing back Richard's suggestions...
- 15:54:03 [Ryladog]
- CSUN?
- 15:54:25 [MartijnHoutepen]
- EV: end of call, do the rest of discussions on the list/survey
- 15:54:48 [MartijnHoutepen]
- Zakim, close agendum
- 15:54:48 [Zakim]
- I don't understand 'close agendum', MartijnHoutepen
- 15:55:13 [MartijnHoutepen]
- agenda+ csun
- 15:55:21 [MartijnHoutepen]
- Zakim, take up agendum 9
- 15:55:21 [Zakim]
- agendum 9. "csun" taken up [from MartijnHoutepen]
- 15:55:25 [shadi]
- https://www.w3.org/2002/09/wbs/48225/EvalTF_CSUN2013/results
- 15:57:00 [MartijnHoutepen]
- SAZ: currently no meeting, not enough people
- 15:57:40 [MartijnHoutepen]
- EF, TB, ME: no travel budget
- 15:58:28 [MartijnHoutepen]
- EV: no official group meeting
- 15:58:48 [Sarah_Swierenga]
- I'd like to meet whoever is going to be at CSUN - I won't be arriving until Tuesday afternoon.
- 15:58:58 [Vivienne]
- What about WWW 2013?
- 15:59:12 [Vivienne]
- q+
- 15:59:21 [Vivienne]
- ack me
- 16:00:09 [Ryladog]
- q+
- 16:00:39 [Sarah_Swierenga]
- Sorry, I need to get to another meeting now. Have a good week!
- 16:00:50 [Zakim]
- -Sarah_Swierenga
- 16:01:00 [Zakim]
- -MartijnHoutepen
- 16:01:10 [MartijnHoutepen]
- Sorry, dropped from the call again
- 16:01:17 [Vivienne]
- bye now - good night!
- 16:01:20 [Liz]
- bye
- 16:01:20 [shadi]
- trackbot, close meeting
- 16:01:20 [trackbot]
- Sorry, shadi, I don't understand 'trackbot, close meeting'. Please refer to <http://www.w3.org/2005/06/tracker/irc> for help.
- 16:01:21 [Zakim]
- -Mike_Elledge
- 16:01:25 [Zakim]
- -Eric
- 16:01:26 [Zakim]
- -Detlev
- 16:01:28 [Zakim]
- -Shadi
- 16:01:29 [shadi]
- trackbot, end meeting
- 16:01:29 [trackbot]
- Zakim, list attendees
- 16:01:29 [Zakim]
- -Vivienne
- 16:01:29 [Zakim]
- As of this point the attendees have been Shadi, Vivienne, Eric, MartijnHoutepen, +1.301.975.aaaa, Katie_Haritos_Shea, Detlev, Liz, Mike_Elledge, Sarah_Swierenga, Tim_Boland
- 16:01:29 [MartijnHoutepen]
- bye
- 16:01:30 [Zakim]
- -Katie_Haritos_Shea
- 16:01:32 [Zakim]
- -Liz
- 16:01:37 [trackbot]
- RRSAgent, please draft minutes
- 16:01:37 [RRSAgent]
- I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2013/01/31-eval-minutes.html trackbot
- 16:01:38 [trackbot]
- RRSAgent, bye
- 16:01:38 [RRSAgent]
- I see no action items