14:54:58 <RRSAgent> RRSAgent has joined #eval
14:54:58 <RRSAgent> logging to http://www.w3.org/2013/01/31-eval-irc
14:55:00 <trackbot> RRSAgent, make logs world
14:55:02 <trackbot> Zakim, this will be 3825
14:55:02 <Zakim> ok, trackbot; I see WAI_ERTWG(Eval TF)10:00AM scheduled to start in 5 minutes
14:55:03 <trackbot> Meeting: WCAG 2.0 Evaluation Methodology Task Force Teleconference
14:55:03 <trackbot> Date: 31 January 2013
14:55:19 <shadi> zakim, this will be eval
14:55:19 <Zakim> ok, shadi; I see WAI_ERTWG(Eval TF)10:00AM scheduled to start in 5 minutes
14:55:36 <Zakim> WAI_ERTWG(Eval TF)10:00AM has now started
14:55:43 <Zakim> +Shadi
14:55:58 <ericvelleman> ericvelleman has joined #eval
14:56:22 <Zakim> +[IPcaller]
14:56:31 <Vivienne> Zakim, IPcaller is me
14:56:31 <Zakim> +Vivienne; got it
14:57:02 <Zakim> +Eric
14:58:04 <Zakim> +MartijnHoutepen
14:58:26 <MartijnHoutepen> agenda?
14:58:36 <Liz> Liz has joined #eval
14:59:11 <MartijnHoutepen> Zakim, please clear the agenda
14:59:11 <Zakim> agenda cleared
14:59:27 <MartijnHoutepen> agenda+ Welcome
14:59:35 <MartijnHoutepen> agenda+ new editor draft
14:59:37 <Zakim> + +1.301.975.aaaa
14:59:37 <Ryladog> Ryladog has joined #eval
14:59:48 <MartijnHoutepen> agenda+ survey 7 and 8
14:59:57 <MartijnHoutepen> agenda+ combining evaluations
15:00:08 <MartijnHoutepen> agenda+ make sampling optional
15:00:16 <MartijnHoutepen> agenda+ definition of random
15:00:23 <MartijnHoutepen> agenda+ size of sample
15:00:29 <MartijnHoutepen> agenda+ other issues
15:00:38 <Detlev> Detlev has joined #eval
15:00:43 <MartijnHoutepen> Zakim, please mute me
15:00:43 <Zakim> MartijnHoutepen should now be muted
15:00:45 <Zakim> +Katie_Haritos_Shea
15:00:53 <MartijnHoutepen> ack me
15:01:15 <Zakim> +Detlev
15:01:56 <MartijnHoutepen> scribenick: MartijnHoutepen
15:02:03 <MartijnHoutepen> Zakim, mute me
15:02:03 <Zakim> MartijnHoutepen should now be muted
15:02:14 <MartijnHoutepen> Zakim, take up first
15:02:14 <Zakim> I don't understand 'take up first', MartijnHoutepen
15:02:18 <MartijnHoutepen> Zakim, take up next
15:02:18 <Zakim> agendum 1. "Welcome" taken up [from MartijnHoutepen]
15:02:27 <MartijnHoutepen> Zakim, close agendum 1
15:02:27 <Zakim> agendum 1, Welcome, closed
15:02:28 <Zakim> I see 6 items remaining on the agenda; the next one is
15:02:28 <Zakim> 2. new editor draft [from MartijnHoutepen]
15:02:36 <MartijnHoutepen> zakim, take up next
15:02:37 <Zakim> agendum 2. "new editor draft" taken up [from MartijnHoutepen]
15:03:31 <MartijnHoutepen> EV: new editor draft and disposition of comments are up, latest version 28th jan.
15:04:24 <MartijnHoutepen> EV: almost all of the comments are adressed
15:05:14 <ericvelleman> q?
15:05:19 <MartijnHoutepen> Zakim, take up next
15:05:19 <Zakim> agendum 3. "survey 7 and 8" taken up [from MartijnHoutepen]
15:05:45 <MartijnHoutepen> EV: survey 7 closed, survey 8 opened last tuesday
15:05:47 <shadi> zakim, who is on the phone?
15:05:47 <Zakim> On the phone I see Shadi, Vivienne, Eric, MartijnHoutepen (muted), +1.301.975.aaaa, Katie_Haritos_Shea, Detlev
15:06:02 <shadi> zakim, aaaa is Liz
15:06:02 <Zakim> +Liz; got it
15:06:10 <MartijnHoutepen> EV: hope to publish new editor draft monday
15:06:45 <MartijnHoutepen> EV: things accepted in surveys will be included in next ED
15:07:12 <Detlev> Zakim, mute me
15:07:12 <Zakim> Detlev should now be muted
15:07:15 <ericvelleman> q?
15:07:22 <Vivienne> zakim, mute me
15:07:22 <Zakim> Vivienne should now be muted
15:07:45 <MartijnHoutepen> EV: survey open until Saturday evening
15:08:23 <MartijnHoutepen> Zakim, take up next
15:08:23 <Zakim> agendum 5. "make sampling optional" taken up [from MartijnHoutepen]
15:09:04 <Zakim> -Eric
15:09:10 <MartijnHoutepen> Zakim, take up agendum 4
15:09:10 <Zakim> agendum 4. "combining evaluations" taken up [from MartijnHoutepen]
15:09:26 <MartijnHoutepen> ack me
15:09:26 <Vivienne> q+
15:10:17 <MartijnHoutepen> Zakim, mute me
15:10:17 <Zakim> MartijnHoutepen should now be muted
15:10:20 <ericvelleman> Hi, phone just stopped, calling in now
15:10:37 <Zakim> +Eric
15:11:42 <MartijnHoutepen> EV: ongoing discussion about combining evaluations
15:12:03 <ericvelleman> q?
15:12:06 <Vivienne> ack me
15:12:10 <MartijnHoutepen> EV: does Accessibility support need to be uniform on a website?
15:12:47 <Zakim> +Mike_Elledge
15:13:26 <ericvelleman> q?
15:13:30 <Detlev> q+
15:13:32 <Ryladog> q+
15:13:36 <MartijnHoutepen> VC: It will be hard to qualify, especially with different evaluators that don't agree with each other in a crosschecking situation
15:13:52 <Mike_Elledge> Mike_Elledge has joined #eval
15:13:53 <Detlev> ack me
15:13:56 <Vivienne> zakim, mute me
15:13:56 <Zakim> Vivienne should now be muted
15:13:58 <MartijnHoutepen> VC: Concerned about conflicting results
15:14:37 <MartijnHoutepen> DF: David MacDonald pointed out the difference between support amongst Assistive Technologies
15:16:11 <Detlev> Zakim, mute me
15:16:11 <Zakim> Detlev should now be muted
15:16:30 <MartijnHoutepen> DF: if some AT does not support some accessible function, it shouldnt be wrong because some AT does not support it
15:16:38 <ericvelleman> q?
15:17:35 <Zakim> -MartijnHoutepen
15:17:40 <MartijnHoutepen> KHS: the code is more important than the AT used, necessary to document what is used
15:17:51 <MartijnHoutepen> My line is gone, can someone scribe?
15:18:10 <MartijnHoutepen> dialing in again
15:18:21 <Zakim> +MartijnHoutepen
15:18:34 <MartijnHoutepen> Zakim, mute me
15:18:34 <Zakim> MartijnHoutepen should now be muted
15:19:08 <ericvelleman> q?
15:19:13 <MartijnHoutepen> KHS: vitally important to identify all tools, AT, UA, OS
15:19:13 <Detlev> q+
15:19:58 <Detlev> ack me
15:20:00 <MartijnHoutepen> KHS: if semantics are properly programmed, that is more important than tools, at
15:20:10 <MartijnHoutepen> q- R
15:21:17 <Ryladog> q+
15:21:25 <MartijnHoutepen> DF: very hard to define what AT you have to use per SC, and probably double work. Some criteria are easy to check on the basis of code
15:21:47 <Detlev> Zakim, mute me
15:21:47 <Zakim> Detlev should now be muted
15:22:23 <MartijnHoutepen> EV: we can add "require evaluators to describe what AT, etc they use"
15:22:49 <shadi> regrets: Kathy, Peter, Alistair, Ramon, Roberto, Moe
15:23:28 <Mike_Elledge> q+
15:23:32 <MartijnHoutepen> KHS: you don't need to test every criteria with every tool
15:23:33 <Detlev> agree
15:23:35 <shadi> q+
15:23:41 <shadi> q- ry
15:23:57 <ericvelleman> q?
15:24:03 <shadi> ack m
15:24:18 <MartijnHoutepen> EV: finish this discussion on list, as we seem to agree, will make a text suggestion
15:24:57 <Detlev> q+
15:25:29 <Sarah_Swierenga> Sarah_Swierenga has joined #eval
15:25:37 <MartijnHoutepen> ME: we can maybe define the types of tools that can be used during evaluation
15:25:51 <shadi> ack me
15:25:51 <ericvelleman> q?
15:26:00 <Zakim> +Sarah_Swierenga
15:26:30 <MartijnHoutepen> SAZ: not sure it is feasible to require to report every tool used per check
15:27:08 <MartijnHoutepen> SAZ: It can be an option for reporting
15:27:17 <shadi> http://www.w3.org/WAI/ER/conformance/ED-methodology-20130128#step1d
15:28:10 <ericvelleman> q?
15:28:17 <MartijnHoutepen> SAZ: natural part of evaluation to define and document tools used
15:28:35 <Detlev> ack me
15:29:17 <MartijnHoutepen> DF: there is a certain risk if you define the tools used, if you do not use every tool on every sc
15:30:02 <ericvelleman> q?
15:30:02 <MartijnHoutepen> DF: We make comments describing interesting finds with AT
15:30:23 <Detlev> Zakim, mute me
15:30:23 <Zakim> Detlev should now be muted
15:30:40 <Ryladog> q+
15:30:41 <MartijnHoutepen> EV: I will suggest a text on the list
15:31:38 <Tim> Tim has joined #eval
15:31:43 <Detlev> skip link - sure - thats part of the check in the technique!
15:32:15 <MartijnHoutepen> KHS: important to also report the findings with AT and additional checks
15:32:26 <Ryladog> q+
15:32:28 <Zakim> -MartijnHoutepen
15:32:40 <MartijnHoutepen> I am disconnected again
15:33:06 <Zakim> +MartijnHoutepen
15:33:17 <shadi> q+
15:33:17 <MartijnHoutepen> Zakim, mute me
15:33:18 <Zakim> MartijnHoutepen should now be muted
15:33:45 <ericvelleman> Eric will make a proposal on the list. Please review and comment the coming days so we can include it into the next editor draft
15:34:11 <MartijnHoutepen> KHS: do not prescribe that evaluators have to use it, but if you use it
15:34:12 <shadi> ack ry
15:34:15 <shadi> ack me
15:35:39 <MartijnHoutepen> SAZ: if step 1d would be : "define the tools / methods to be used (optional)"
15:35:59 <MartijnHoutepen> SAZ: or combine 3.1.4 and 3.1.5
15:37:06 <MartijnHoutepen> EV: see 3.4.5 step 4e
15:38:04 <Detlev> q+
15:38:10 <shadi> http://www.w3.org/WAI/ER/conformance/ED-methodology-20130128#step4e
15:38:24 <MartijnHoutepen> SAZ: step 4e may indeed be a better place
15:39:04 <ericvelleman> q?
15:39:07 <MartijnHoutepen> EV: refer back to it from 5a (reporting)
15:39:08 <Detlev> ack me
15:39:14 <Zakim> +Tim_Boland
15:39:57 <MartijnHoutepen> DF: detailed report: would you have to register every check for every page for every SC
15:40:59 <MartijnHoutepen> EV: good question, we do not adress this yet
15:41:09 <shadi> zakim, mute me
15:41:09 <Zakim> Shadi should now be muted
15:42:12 <MartijnHoutepen> KHS: raises the bar, but may be in the hands of the evaluation commissioner
15:42:50 <Detlev> Zakim, mute me
15:42:50 <Zakim> Detlev should now be muted
15:43:18 <ericvelleman> q?
15:43:42 <MartijnHoutepen> EV: i will check if we have the same sort of issue in more places in the document
15:43:56 <shadi> ack me
15:44:35 <MartijnHoutepen> Zakim, take up agendum 5
15:44:35 <Zakim> agendum 5. "make sampling optional" taken up [from MartijnHoutepen]
15:45:23 <MartijnHoutepen> EV: do we make random sampling optional?
15:45:38 <ericvelleman> q?
15:45:40 <Detlev> q+
15:45:44 <Detlev> ack me
15:45:47 <MartijnHoutepen> EV: proposed resolution: keep non-optional for now
15:45:48 <Ryladog> q+
15:46:37 <shadi> q+
15:46:43 <MartijnHoutepen> DF: We need to define 'random'
15:47:03 <MartijnHoutepen> DF: if we keep it easy i do not object to keeping it non-optional
15:47:46 <ericvelleman> q?
15:47:47 <Detlev> Zakim, mute me
15:47:47 <Zakim> Detlev should now be muted
15:47:58 <MartijnHoutepen> EV: few  topics on the list
15:48:03 <Detlev> Martijn: I'm fine with *not* defining randim it if the process as straightforward as suggrsted by Richard
15:48:14 <MartijnHoutepen> KHS: this can go hand in hand with the level of detail of testing
15:49:22 <shadi> ack ry
15:49:24 <shadi> ack me
15:50:03 <MartijnHoutepen> SAZ: Detlev suggested to move away from terminology s.a. random, sample
15:50:32 <MartijnHoutepen> SAZ: we might take a more pragmatic approach: make it random-like
15:50:51 <MartijnHoutepen> SAZ: different websites need different approaches
15:51:10 <Detlev> "targeted heuristics"
15:51:57 <ericvelleman> q?
15:52:56 <MartijnHoutepen> EV: discussion going on on the list, multiple threads
15:53:35 <MartijnHoutepen> EV: i propose a non-statistical way, at least for the next working draft and following test-run
15:53:44 <Detlev> I was basically just playing back Richard's suggestions...
15:54:03 <Ryladog> CSUN?
15:54:25 <MartijnHoutepen> EV: end of call, do the rest of discussions on the list/survey
15:54:48 <MartijnHoutepen> Zakim, close agendum
15:54:48 <Zakim> I don't understand 'close agendum', MartijnHoutepen
15:55:13 <MartijnHoutepen> agenda+ csun
15:55:21 <MartijnHoutepen> Zakim, take up agendum 9
15:55:21 <Zakim> agendum 9. "csun" taken up [from MartijnHoutepen]
15:55:25 <shadi> https://www.w3.org/2002/09/wbs/48225/EvalTF_CSUN2013/results
15:57:00 <MartijnHoutepen> SAZ: currently no meeting, not enough people
15:57:40 <MartijnHoutepen> EF, TB, ME: no travel budget
15:58:28 <MartijnHoutepen> EV: no official group meeting
15:58:48 <Sarah_Swierenga> I'd like to meet whoever is going to be at CSUN - I won't be arriving until Tuesday afternoon.
15:58:58 <Vivienne> What about WWW 2013?
15:59:12 <Vivienne> q+
15:59:21 <Vivienne> ack me
16:00:09 <Ryladog> q+
16:00:39 <Sarah_Swierenga> Sorry, I need to get to another meeting now. Have a good week!
16:00:50 <Zakim> -Sarah_Swierenga
16:01:00 <Zakim> -MartijnHoutepen
16:01:10 <MartijnHoutepen> Sorry, dropped from the call again
16:01:17 <Vivienne> bye now - good night!
16:01:20 <Liz> bye
16:01:20 <shadi> trackbot, close meeting
16:01:20 <trackbot> Sorry, shadi, I don't understand 'trackbot, close meeting'. Please refer to <http://www.w3.org/2005/06/tracker/irc> for help.
16:01:21 <Zakim> -Mike_Elledge
16:01:25 <Zakim> -Eric
16:01:26 <Zakim> -Detlev
16:01:28 <Zakim> -Shadi
16:01:29 <shadi> trackbot, end meeting
16:01:29 <trackbot> Zakim, list attendees
16:01:29 <Zakim> -Vivienne
16:01:29 <Zakim> As of this point the attendees have been Shadi, Vivienne, Eric, MartijnHoutepen, +1.301.975.aaaa, Katie_Haritos_Shea, Detlev, Liz, Mike_Elledge, Sarah_Swierenga, Tim_Boland
16:01:29 <MartijnHoutepen> bye
16:01:30 <Zakim> -Katie_Haritos_Shea
16:01:32 <Zakim> -Liz
16:01:37 <trackbot> RRSAgent, please draft minutes
16:01:37 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2013/01/31-eval-minutes.html trackbot
16:01:38 <trackbot> RRSAgent, bye
16:01:38 <RRSAgent> I see no action items