IRC log of eval on 2013-01-31

Timestamps are in UTC.

14:54:58 [RRSAgent]
RRSAgent has joined #eval
14:54:58 [RRSAgent]
logging to http://www.w3.org/2013/01/31-eval-irc
14:55:00 [trackbot]
RRSAgent, make logs world
14:55:02 [trackbot]
Zakim, this will be 3825
14:55:02 [Zakim]
ok, trackbot; I see WAI_ERTWG(Eval TF)10:00AM scheduled to start in 5 minutes
14:55:03 [trackbot]
Meeting: WCAG 2.0 Evaluation Methodology Task Force Teleconference
14:55:03 [trackbot]
Date: 31 January 2013
14:55:19 [shadi]
zakim, this will be eval
14:55:19 [Zakim]
ok, shadi; I see WAI_ERTWG(Eval TF)10:00AM scheduled to start in 5 minutes
14:55:36 [Zakim]
WAI_ERTWG(Eval TF)10:00AM has now started
14:55:43 [Zakim]
+Shadi
14:55:58 [ericvelleman]
ericvelleman has joined #eval
14:56:22 [Zakim]
+[IPcaller]
14:56:31 [Vivienne]
Zakim, IPcaller is me
14:56:31 [Zakim]
+Vivienne; got it
14:57:02 [Zakim]
+Eric
14:58:04 [Zakim]
+MartijnHoutepen
14:58:26 [MartijnHoutepen]
agenda?
14:58:36 [Liz]
Liz has joined #eval
14:59:11 [MartijnHoutepen]
Zakim, please clear the agenda
14:59:11 [Zakim]
agenda cleared
14:59:27 [MartijnHoutepen]
agenda+ Welcome
14:59:35 [MartijnHoutepen]
agenda+ new editor draft
14:59:37 [Zakim]
+ +1.301.975.aaaa
14:59:37 [Ryladog]
Ryladog has joined #eval
14:59:48 [MartijnHoutepen]
agenda+ survey 7 and 8
14:59:57 [MartijnHoutepen]
agenda+ combining evaluations
15:00:08 [MartijnHoutepen]
agenda+ make sampling optional
15:00:16 [MartijnHoutepen]
agenda+ definition of random
15:00:23 [MartijnHoutepen]
agenda+ size of sample
15:00:29 [MartijnHoutepen]
agenda+ other issues
15:00:38 [Detlev]
Detlev has joined #eval
15:00:43 [MartijnHoutepen]
Zakim, please mute me
15:00:43 [Zakim]
MartijnHoutepen should now be muted
15:00:45 [Zakim]
+Katie_Haritos_Shea
15:00:53 [MartijnHoutepen]
ack me
15:01:15 [Zakim]
+Detlev
15:01:56 [MartijnHoutepen]
scribenick: MartijnHoutepen
15:02:03 [MartijnHoutepen]
Zakim, mute me
15:02:03 [Zakim]
MartijnHoutepen should now be muted
15:02:14 [MartijnHoutepen]
Zakim, take up first
15:02:14 [Zakim]
I don't understand 'take up first', MartijnHoutepen
15:02:18 [MartijnHoutepen]
Zakim, take up next
15:02:18 [Zakim]
agendum 1. "Welcome" taken up [from MartijnHoutepen]
15:02:27 [MartijnHoutepen]
Zakim, close agendum 1
15:02:27 [Zakim]
agendum 1, Welcome, closed
15:02:28 [Zakim]
I see 6 items remaining on the agenda; the next one is
15:02:28 [Zakim]
2. new editor draft [from MartijnHoutepen]
15:02:36 [MartijnHoutepen]
zakim, take up next
15:02:37 [Zakim]
agendum 2. "new editor draft" taken up [from MartijnHoutepen]
15:03:31 [MartijnHoutepen]
EV: new editor draft and disposition of comments are up, latest version 28th jan.
15:04:24 [MartijnHoutepen]
EV: almost all of the comments are adressed
15:05:14 [ericvelleman]
q?
15:05:19 [MartijnHoutepen]
Zakim, take up next
15:05:19 [Zakim]
agendum 3. "survey 7 and 8" taken up [from MartijnHoutepen]
15:05:45 [MartijnHoutepen]
EV: survey 7 closed, survey 8 opened last tuesday
15:05:47 [shadi]
zakim, who is on the phone?
15:05:47 [Zakim]
On the phone I see Shadi, Vivienne, Eric, MartijnHoutepen (muted), +1.301.975.aaaa, Katie_Haritos_Shea, Detlev
15:06:02 [shadi]
zakim, aaaa is Liz
15:06:02 [Zakim]
+Liz; got it
15:06:10 [MartijnHoutepen]
EV: hope to publish new editor draft monday
15:06:45 [MartijnHoutepen]
EV: things accepted in surveys will be included in next ED
15:07:12 [Detlev]
Zakim, mute me
15:07:12 [Zakim]
Detlev should now be muted
15:07:15 [ericvelleman]
q?
15:07:22 [Vivienne]
zakim, mute me
15:07:22 [Zakim]
Vivienne should now be muted
15:07:45 [MartijnHoutepen]
EV: survey open until Saturday evening
15:08:23 [MartijnHoutepen]
Zakim, take up next
15:08:23 [Zakim]
agendum 5. "make sampling optional" taken up [from MartijnHoutepen]
15:09:04 [Zakim]
-Eric
15:09:10 [MartijnHoutepen]
Zakim, take up agendum 4
15:09:10 [Zakim]
agendum 4. "combining evaluations" taken up [from MartijnHoutepen]
15:09:26 [MartijnHoutepen]
ack me
15:09:26 [Vivienne]
q+
15:10:17 [MartijnHoutepen]
Zakim, mute me
15:10:17 [Zakim]
MartijnHoutepen should now be muted
15:10:20 [ericvelleman]
Hi, phone just stopped, calling in now
15:10:37 [Zakim]
+Eric
15:11:42 [MartijnHoutepen]
EV: ongoing discussion about combining evaluations
15:12:03 [ericvelleman]
q?
15:12:06 [Vivienne]
ack me
15:12:10 [MartijnHoutepen]
EV: does Accessibility support need to be uniform on a website?
15:12:47 [Zakim]
+Mike_Elledge
15:13:26 [ericvelleman]
q?
15:13:30 [Detlev]
q+
15:13:32 [Ryladog]
q+
15:13:36 [MartijnHoutepen]
VC: It will be hard to qualify, especially with different evaluators that don't agree with each other in a crosschecking situation
15:13:52 [Mike_Elledge]
Mike_Elledge has joined #eval
15:13:53 [Detlev]
ack me
15:13:56 [Vivienne]
zakim, mute me
15:13:56 [Zakim]
Vivienne should now be muted
15:13:58 [MartijnHoutepen]
VC: Concerned about conflicting results
15:14:37 [MartijnHoutepen]
DF: David MacDonald pointed out the difference between support amongst Assistive Technologies
15:16:11 [Detlev]
Zakim, mute me
15:16:11 [Zakim]
Detlev should now be muted
15:16:30 [MartijnHoutepen]
DF: if some AT does not support some accessible function, it shouldnt be wrong because some AT does not support it
15:16:38 [ericvelleman]
q?
15:17:35 [Zakim]
-MartijnHoutepen
15:17:40 [MartijnHoutepen]
KHS: the code is more important than the AT used, necessary to document what is used
15:17:51 [MartijnHoutepen]
My line is gone, can someone scribe?
15:18:10 [MartijnHoutepen]
dialing in again
15:18:21 [Zakim]
+MartijnHoutepen
15:18:34 [MartijnHoutepen]
Zakim, mute me
15:18:34 [Zakim]
MartijnHoutepen should now be muted
15:19:08 [ericvelleman]
q?
15:19:13 [MartijnHoutepen]
KHS: vitally important to identify all tools, AT, UA, OS
15:19:13 [Detlev]
q+
15:19:58 [Detlev]
ack me
15:20:00 [MartijnHoutepen]
KHS: if semantics are properly programmed, that is more important than tools, at
15:20:10 [MartijnHoutepen]
q- R
15:21:17 [Ryladog]
q+
15:21:25 [MartijnHoutepen]
DF: very hard to define what AT you have to use per SC, and probably double work. Some criteria are easy to check on the basis of code
15:21:47 [Detlev]
Zakim, mute me
15:21:47 [Zakim]
Detlev should now be muted
15:22:23 [MartijnHoutepen]
EV: we can add "require evaluators to describe what AT, etc they use"
15:22:49 [shadi]
regrets: Kathy, Peter, Alistair, Ramon, Roberto, Moe
15:23:28 [Mike_Elledge]
q+
15:23:32 [MartijnHoutepen]
KHS: you don't need to test every criteria with every tool
15:23:33 [Detlev]
agree
15:23:35 [shadi]
q+
15:23:41 [shadi]
q- ry
15:23:57 [ericvelleman]
q?
15:24:03 [shadi]
ack m
15:24:18 [MartijnHoutepen]
EV: finish this discussion on list, as we seem to agree, will make a text suggestion
15:24:57 [Detlev]
q+
15:25:29 [Sarah_Swierenga]
Sarah_Swierenga has joined #eval
15:25:37 [MartijnHoutepen]
ME: we can maybe define the types of tools that can be used during evaluation
15:25:51 [shadi]
ack me
15:25:51 [ericvelleman]
q?
15:26:00 [Zakim]
+Sarah_Swierenga
15:26:30 [MartijnHoutepen]
SAZ: not sure it is feasible to require to report every tool used per check
15:27:08 [MartijnHoutepen]
SAZ: It can be an option for reporting
15:27:17 [shadi]
http://www.w3.org/WAI/ER/conformance/ED-methodology-20130128#step1d
15:28:10 [ericvelleman]
q?
15:28:17 [MartijnHoutepen]
SAZ: natural part of evaluation to define and document tools used
15:28:35 [Detlev]
ack me
15:29:17 [MartijnHoutepen]
DF: there is a certain risk if you define the tools used, if you do not use every tool on every sc
15:30:02 [ericvelleman]
q?
15:30:02 [MartijnHoutepen]
DF: We make comments describing interesting finds with AT
15:30:23 [Detlev]
Zakim, mute me
15:30:23 [Zakim]
Detlev should now be muted
15:30:40 [Ryladog]
q+
15:30:41 [MartijnHoutepen]
EV: I will suggest a text on the list
15:31:38 [Tim]
Tim has joined #eval
15:31:43 [Detlev]
skip link - sure - thats part of the check in the technique!
15:32:15 [MartijnHoutepen]
KHS: important to also report the findings with AT and additional checks
15:32:26 [Ryladog]
q+
15:32:28 [Zakim]
-MartijnHoutepen
15:32:40 [MartijnHoutepen]
I am disconnected again
15:33:06 [Zakim]
+MartijnHoutepen
15:33:17 [shadi]
q+
15:33:17 [MartijnHoutepen]
Zakim, mute me
15:33:18 [Zakim]
MartijnHoutepen should now be muted
15:33:45 [ericvelleman]
Eric will make a proposal on the list. Please review and comment the coming days so we can include it into the next editor draft
15:34:11 [MartijnHoutepen]
KHS: do not prescribe that evaluators have to use it, but if you use it
15:34:12 [shadi]
ack ry
15:34:15 [shadi]
ack me
15:35:39 [MartijnHoutepen]
SAZ: if step 1d would be : "define the tools / methods to be used (optional)"
15:35:59 [MartijnHoutepen]
SAZ: or combine 3.1.4 and 3.1.5
15:37:06 [MartijnHoutepen]
EV: see 3.4.5 step 4e
15:38:04 [Detlev]
q+
15:38:10 [shadi]
http://www.w3.org/WAI/ER/conformance/ED-methodology-20130128#step4e
15:38:24 [MartijnHoutepen]
SAZ: step 4e may indeed be a better place
15:39:04 [ericvelleman]
q?
15:39:07 [MartijnHoutepen]
EV: refer back to it from 5a (reporting)
15:39:08 [Detlev]
ack me
15:39:14 [Zakim]
+Tim_Boland
15:39:57 [MartijnHoutepen]
DF: detailed report: would you have to register every check for every page for every SC
15:40:59 [MartijnHoutepen]
EV: good question, we do not adress this yet
15:41:09 [shadi]
zakim, mute me
15:41:09 [Zakim]
Shadi should now be muted
15:42:12 [MartijnHoutepen]
KHS: raises the bar, but may be in the hands of the evaluation commissioner
15:42:50 [Detlev]
Zakim, mute me
15:42:50 [Zakim]
Detlev should now be muted
15:43:18 [ericvelleman]
q?
15:43:42 [MartijnHoutepen]
EV: i will check if we have the same sort of issue in more places in the document
15:43:56 [shadi]
ack me
15:44:35 [MartijnHoutepen]
Zakim, take up agendum 5
15:44:35 [Zakim]
agendum 5. "make sampling optional" taken up [from MartijnHoutepen]
15:45:23 [MartijnHoutepen]
EV: do we make random sampling optional?
15:45:38 [ericvelleman]
q?
15:45:40 [Detlev]
q+
15:45:44 [Detlev]
ack me
15:45:47 [MartijnHoutepen]
EV: proposed resolution: keep non-optional for now
15:45:48 [Ryladog]
q+
15:46:37 [shadi]
q+
15:46:43 [MartijnHoutepen]
DF: We need to define 'random'
15:47:03 [MartijnHoutepen]
DF: if we keep it easy i do not object to keeping it non-optional
15:47:46 [ericvelleman]
q?
15:47:47 [Detlev]
Zakim, mute me
15:47:47 [Zakim]
Detlev should now be muted
15:47:58 [MartijnHoutepen]
EV: few topics on the list
15:48:03 [Detlev]
Martijn: I'm fine with *not* defining randim it if the process as straightforward as suggrsted by Richard
15:48:14 [MartijnHoutepen]
KHS: this can go hand in hand with the level of detail of testing
15:49:22 [shadi]
ack ry
15:49:24 [shadi]
ack me
15:50:03 [MartijnHoutepen]
SAZ: Detlev suggested to move away from terminology s.a. random, sample
15:50:32 [MartijnHoutepen]
SAZ: we might take a more pragmatic approach: make it random-like
15:50:51 [MartijnHoutepen]
SAZ: different websites need different approaches
15:51:10 [Detlev]
"targeted heuristics"
15:51:57 [ericvelleman]
q?
15:52:56 [MartijnHoutepen]
EV: discussion going on on the list, multiple threads
15:53:35 [MartijnHoutepen]
EV: i propose a non-statistical way, at least for the next working draft and following test-run
15:53:44 [Detlev]
I was basically just playing back Richard's suggestions...
15:54:03 [Ryladog]
CSUN?
15:54:25 [MartijnHoutepen]
EV: end of call, do the rest of discussions on the list/survey
15:54:48 [MartijnHoutepen]
Zakim, close agendum
15:54:48 [Zakim]
I don't understand 'close agendum', MartijnHoutepen
15:55:13 [MartijnHoutepen]
agenda+ csun
15:55:21 [MartijnHoutepen]
Zakim, take up agendum 9
15:55:21 [Zakim]
agendum 9. "csun" taken up [from MartijnHoutepen]
15:55:25 [shadi]
https://www.w3.org/2002/09/wbs/48225/EvalTF_CSUN2013/results
15:57:00 [MartijnHoutepen]
SAZ: currently no meeting, not enough people
15:57:40 [MartijnHoutepen]
EF, TB, ME: no travel budget
15:58:28 [MartijnHoutepen]
EV: no official group meeting
15:58:48 [Sarah_Swierenga]
I'd like to meet whoever is going to be at CSUN - I won't be arriving until Tuesday afternoon.
15:58:58 [Vivienne]
What about WWW 2013?
15:59:12 [Vivienne]
q+
15:59:21 [Vivienne]
ack me
16:00:09 [Ryladog]
q+
16:00:39 [Sarah_Swierenga]
Sorry, I need to get to another meeting now. Have a good week!
16:00:50 [Zakim]
-Sarah_Swierenga
16:01:00 [Zakim]
-MartijnHoutepen
16:01:10 [MartijnHoutepen]
Sorry, dropped from the call again
16:01:17 [Vivienne]
bye now - good night!
16:01:20 [Liz]
bye
16:01:20 [shadi]
trackbot, close meeting
16:01:20 [trackbot]
Sorry, shadi, I don't understand 'trackbot, close meeting'. Please refer to <http://www.w3.org/2005/06/tracker/irc> for help.
16:01:21 [Zakim]
-Mike_Elledge
16:01:25 [Zakim]
-Eric
16:01:26 [Zakim]
-Detlev
16:01:28 [Zakim]
-Shadi
16:01:29 [shadi]
trackbot, end meeting
16:01:29 [trackbot]
Zakim, list attendees
16:01:29 [Zakim]
-Vivienne
16:01:29 [Zakim]
As of this point the attendees have been Shadi, Vivienne, Eric, MartijnHoutepen, +1.301.975.aaaa, Katie_Haritos_Shea, Detlev, Liz, Mike_Elledge, Sarah_Swierenga, Tim_Boland
16:01:29 [MartijnHoutepen]
bye
16:01:30 [Zakim]
-Katie_Haritos_Shea
16:01:32 [Zakim]
-Liz
16:01:37 [trackbot]
RRSAgent, please draft minutes
16:01:37 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2013/01/31-eval-minutes.html trackbot
16:01:38 [trackbot]
RRSAgent, bye
16:01:38 [RRSAgent]
I see no action items