IRC log of tagmem on 2013-01-24

Timestamps are in UTC.

17:43:54 [RRSAgent]
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17:43:54 [RRSAgent]
logging to
17:44:02 [ht]
Meeting: TAG
17:44:07 [ht]
Chair: Noah Mendelsohn
17:44:12 [ht]
ScribeNick: ht
17:44:16 [ht]
Scribe: Henry S. Thompson
17:44:22 [timbl]
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17:44:23 [ht]
17:53:48 [JeniT]
JeniT has joined #tagmem
17:57:45 [Marcos]
hi, thanks JeniT
17:58:08 [wycats]
what's the call-in number?
17:58:12 [wycats]
the call is now right?
17:58:19 [Marcos]
Zakim, passcode?
17:58:19 [Zakim]
the conference code is 0824 (tel:+1.617.761.6200, Marcos
17:58:21 [JeniT]
yes, now
17:58:45 [Zakim]
TAG_Weekly()1:00PM has now started
17:58:52 [Zakim]
17:59:00 [Marcos]
Zakim, +[IPcaller] is me
17:59:00 [Zakim]
sorry, Marcos, I do not recognize a party named '+[IPcaller]'
17:59:05 [Zakim]
17:59:06 [Marcos]
Zakim, [IPcaller] is me
17:59:07 [Zakim]
+Marcos; got it
17:59:16 [Zakim]
17:59:41 [wycats]
am I connected?
17:59:44 [Zakim]
18:00:00 [JeniT]
wycats: are you IPcaller?
18:00:06 [wycats]
JeniT: I have no idea
18:00:11 [wycats]
JeniT: I called via Skype
18:00:14 [JeniT]
wycats: say something
18:00:19 [JeniT]
18:00:47 [wycats]
Wasn't Marcos [IPCaller]?
18:00:54 [JeniT]
yes, originally
18:01:04 [Marcos]
wycats: no worries. It's only useful for muting
18:01:09 [Marcos]
I can mute myself locally
18:01:12 [JeniT]
zakim, who's on the call?
18:01:12 [Zakim]
On the phone I see Marcos, JeniT, wycats, ht
18:01:36 [Marcos]
hopefully no one hears me chewing away on a pear
18:01:36 [ht]
Welcome guys -- I guess Noah is running late
18:01:50 [Zakim]
18:02:06 [wycats]
after last week's debacle I brought in my Blue Snowball to work
18:02:12 [wycats]
hopefully people will be able to hear me better
18:02:16 [wycats]
Marcos: as can I
18:04:25 [noah]
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18:04:52 [JeniT]
ht: are you scribing today?
18:04:58 [ht]
I am
18:05:02 [ht]
All set
18:05:04 [slightlyoff]
will be there shortly....kicking a camper out of a phone room
18:05:15 [Ashok]
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18:05:42 [noah]
18:05:48 [timbl_]
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18:05:56 [Zakim]
18:06:16 [JeniT]
noah: there's an email from Amy
18:06:25 [JeniT]
noah: re Tim's availability
18:06:27 [noah]
Ah...haven't looked last hour,
18:06:38 [Zakim]
18:06:45 [Zakim]
18:07:01 [Zakim]
+ +1.212.565.aaaa
18:07:03 [noah]
zakim, [IPcaller] is me
18:07:03 [Zakim]
+noah; got it
18:07:11 [slightlyoff]
just joined
18:07:13 [slightlyoff]
sorry for the delay
18:09:16 [ht]
Topic: Admin
18:09:24 [ht]
Zakim, who is on the call?
18:09:24 [Zakim]
On the phone I see Marcos, JeniT, wycats, ht (muted), plinss, Ashok_Malhotra, Yves, noah, slightlyoff
18:10:39 [slightlyoff]
+1, LGTM
18:10:43 [ht]
RESOLVED: agreed as a correct record
18:10:59 [ht]
NM: Two goals for the near term:
18:11:15 [ht]
... 1) Focus for the TAG, as membership changes
18:11:45 [ht]
... Suggestions welcome, by email, I'll schedule discussion when it looks likely to be productive
18:12:26 [ht]
... I need help moving beyond good top-level visions, which need filling in
18:13:02 [ht]
... 2) Ongoing work, some nearing completion, others less concrete
18:13:13 [ht]
... Need to either complete, or drop
18:13:54 [ht]
Topic: March F2F location
18:14:13 [ht]
NM: 17-19 March no longer possible for TimBL
18:14:57 [ht]
... And earlier hope that we might try London the preceding weekend is fading
18:15:15 [noah]
Two options: London Fri-Sun 15-17 & Cambridge 19-21 USA
18:15:22 [Marcos]
18:15:27 [slightlyoff]
can make london, although the friday is iffy thanks to TC39 flight back
18:15:34 [JeniT]
either ok
18:15:37 [slightlyoff]
unlikely to make cambridge
18:15:38 [plinss]
either works
18:15:40 [wycats]
I am with slightlyoff vis a vis TC39
18:15:57 [Yves]
can make cambridge but will miss one day, can't for london (I can make 1 day)
18:17:11 [Ashok]
London No, Cambridge Yes
18:17:14 [ht]
I can only do 16-17 in London, but I have always been at risk for this meeting
18:17:18 [wycats]
can we push it forward?
18:17:27 [noah]
How far forward
18:17:27 [wycats]
these weeks seem pretty contended
18:17:28 [noah]
18:17:44 [noah]
No, Tim's calendar is incredibly booked. We typically have to get on it 3 months in advance
18:18:20 [slightlyoff]
thanks for the clarification
18:19:21 [wycats]
It looks like slightlyoff and my preference is both London
18:20:12 [wycats]
I am reviewing my calendar
18:20:14 [slightlyoff]
I won't be in Cambridge, no
18:20:29 [slightlyoff]
but i'm not more important than tim...break the tie on his calendar
18:20:32 [ht]
HST, I can't do Cambridge
18:20:50 [wycats]
I have an existing obligation during the Cambridge time period but I could cancel
18:22:06 [slightlyoff]
no objection, but regrets
18:22:28 [slightlyoff]
no, *my* regrets for not being able to make it...not anyone's fault
18:22:36 [ht]
RESOLUTION: Next TAG f2f will be Cambridge, MA on 19--21 March
18:23:45 [slightlyoff]
agree with Henry
18:25:35 [ht]
Topic: Polyglot / DOM 4 issue
18:25:45 [ht]
q+ to mention XML Core situation
18:25:49 [noah]
ack next
18:25:50 [Zakim]
ht, you wanted to mention XML Core situation
18:25:50 [noah]
18:25:53 [ht]
ack ht
18:26:19 [noah]
Topic: XML Declaration in the DOM
18:26:38 [noah]
HT: XML Core group is discussing this
18:26:54 [noah]
HT: There's a concern that XML Declaration is in the XML Infoset
18:27:22 [noah]
HT: Noah's agenda includes a contested assertion...there's email reporting some current browsers continue to support it.
18:27:42 [noah]
NM: Should TAG do anything right now?
18:28:12 [noah]
HT: Tempted to recuse myself. I'm active in the XML Core group. Not clear on TAG-level issue. Dropping it does seem inappropriate, or confusing at best.
18:29:05 [ht]
I will certainly come back to the TAG on this if I think there's a genuine architectural issue here
18:29:30 [slightlyoff]
I agree with noah
18:29:59 [ht]
NM: Not clear we're ready to address this -- we would need to have some reason to suppose that we could get community engagement on the TAG's involvement
18:30:45 [ht]
Topic: Progress on FragID finding
18:30:59 [noah]
18:31:05 [ht]
NM: We have a project ongoing at the moment:
18:31:34 [noah]
18:31:36 [ht]
NM: That page describes goals, deliverables, success criteria
18:31:41 [noah]
Best Practices for Fragment Identifiers and Media Type Definitions
18:31:52 [ht]
NM: And we have a public WD
18:31:56 [noah]
18:31:56 [trackbot]
ACTION-772 -- Larry Masinter to with help from Jeni to propose CR exit criteria for fragids finding Due 2013-01-08 -- due 2013-01-18 -- OPEN
18:31:56 [trackbot]
18:32:13 [ht]
NM: And the current leading edge is recorded in this action:
18:32:38 [ht]
NM: We are heading for CR, and we were going to discuss exit criteria at the (cancelled) F2F
18:33:00 [ht]
JT: I don't know where we are on exit criteria, I don't think I've heard from LM, who has that action
18:33:03 [noah]
18:33:25 [ht]
JT: I have made a new editors' draft, which incorporates comments from Richard Cyganek
18:33:35 [JeniT]
18:33:42 [JeniT]
18:34:04 [ht]
18:34:28 [ht]
JT: I think we can still go direct to CR at this point
18:35:02 [ht]
JT: I'll take over the CR exit criteria action
18:35:14 [ht]
NM: Thanks
18:35:56 [noah]
18:35:57 [trackbot]
ACTION-772 -- Jeni Tennison to with help from Larry to propose CR exit criteria for fragids finding -- due 2013-02-12 -- OPEN
18:35:57 [trackbot]
18:36:33 [slightlyoff]
18:36:46 [noah]
topic: Back to DOM XML Declarations
18:36:59 [noah]
NM: Notes that Yehuda and Alex favor discussing the DOM at the F2F
18:37:06 [Ashok]
18:37:50 [noah]
ack next
18:37:55 [ht]
NM: Happy to have any topic raised by member on our telcon agenda
18:38:10 [ht]
... Often good to prepare stuff on telcons before we take them up at a f2f
18:38:24 [ht]
Topic: Next steps for Publishing and Linking
18:38:40 [noah]
18:38:40 [trackbot]
ACTION-773 -- Ashok Malhotra to line up reviewers for Publishing and Linking and invite to participate in F2F -- due 2012-12-20 -- CLOSED
18:38:40 [trackbot]
18:39:11 [ht]
AM: We need a fair amount of work on this still
18:39:26 [ht]
... The two editors, AM and LM, are both on their way off the TAG
18:39:45 [ht]
... It would be great if a new member would take this up
18:39:54 [ht]
... Or perhaps JT could pick it up
18:40:27 [ht]
NM: Points taken
18:40:53 [ht]
... What do people think -- should we continue to pursue this one? If so, then we'll look at how
18:41:03 [ht]
q+ ht
18:41:06 [wycats]
I'm not personally interested in pursuing it with my time
18:41:08 [noah]
ack next
18:42:09 [noah]
HT: I'm conficted. I think it's potentially very important. I get profoundly frustrated when, knowledgeable journalists seem not to distinguish linking and embedding when reporting on serious cases involving extradition or other serious matters.
18:43:05 [noah]
HT: Yes, different jurisdictions are different. I wish we could do the service of helping. We gave it a good shot. The comments from people who understand better what's neede have not been supportive. So, I'd love to see it move forward, but I can't do it. We may have to drop it.
18:43:10 [noah]
ack nex
18:43:12 [noah]
ack next
18:43:59 [ht]
YL: The legal side gave us feedback that suggests workiing, as we have, only on the technical side, we won't get there -- to take this forward we need to recruit help on the legal side
18:44:07 [ht]
18:44:29 [ht]
NM: This feels that something we should have been able to make work, if we had managed to stay focussed
18:44:51 [slightlyoff]
it may be the caes that the legal community is improvising too in a vacuum of settled case law
18:44:59 [ht]
... but the feedback we got from the legal side was not all consistent, and in attempting to follow it we lost focus
18:45:09 [JeniT]
18:45:27 [noah]
ack next
18:45:35 [ht]
NM: When we tried to focus on the technology, I think we made some progress, but we couldn't quite close it
18:45:50 [ht]
NM: I do hate to close something after so much effort
18:46:08 [ht]
JT: Yes, but that is a sunk cost, and it probably is time to move on
18:46:41 [noah]
q+ to say Jeni leads me to think that maybe the legal focus is what's made this difficult
18:46:44 [ht]
JT: So maybe a finding or a REC is not the right vehicle for achieving our limited goal
18:47:13 [ht]
... So maybe realising that blog posts or articles in the press are legitimate TAG outputs
18:47:21 [ht]
... is the right thing to do for this
18:47:27 [slightlyoff]
18:47:31 [ht]
NM: So keep it as a work item, or not?
18:47:38 [plinss]
18:47:49 [noah]
ack next
18:47:50 [Zakim]
noah, you wanted to say Jeni leads me to think that maybe the legal focus is what's made this difficult
18:47:51 [ht]
JT: Keep it on the list of things to include in strategic priorties at the F2F
18:48:01 [noah]
q+ to say Jeni leads me to think that maybe the legal focus is what's made this difficult
18:48:16 [ht]
Ax: What was the driver in the first place, for taking this on?
18:50:02 [ht]
NM: There has been a steady trickle of legal cases [in US and UK] which involved sites with links and/or embedding, where public discussion was just muddled. And we did get, I think, requests from [the W3C's legal guy] Rigo Wenning, to help with this.
18:50:32 [ht]
NM: We thought that a TAG finding on this would have more value than an individual's blog post
18:51:23 [ht]
AR: So there was a specific request from lawyers for an explicit technical guidance
18:51:28 [JeniT]
Jonathan brought Thinh along
18:51:30 [ht]
18:51:37 [ht]
18:51:41 [JeniT]
Thinh from Creative Commons
18:52:01 [ht]
HST: I am not sure we had an explicit request to start us off -- certainly some positive feedback once we got started
18:52:28 [Ashok]
Yes. we had a chat with Thinh
18:52:40 [ht]
AR: I think it would be a possible way forward to publish something pithy that says "Here's the relevant bits, in the TAG's opinion"
18:52:47 [slightlyoff]
18:52:49 [slightlyoff]
18:53:06 [noah]
Hmm. Did I not hear Alex suggest pointing to existing explanations?
18:53:24 [ht]
NM: I think the problem is that the RFCs and related material is not at the right level for public consumption
18:53:59 [slightlyoff]
I'm not trying to
18:54:06 [noah]
. ACTION: Noah to schedule F2F discussion of whether and how to pursue Publishing and Linking
18:54:14 [ht]
HST: I think JT's suggestion is the best we've got
18:54:25 [ht]
18:54:26 [slightlyoff]
and don't think we should try to in an absence of compelling demand from a userbase with authority
18:54:32 [noah]
18:54:42 [noah]
ack slightlyoff
18:54:50 [ht]
ack plinss
18:55:10 [ht]
PL: Couldn't we simply put this on an official TAG blog
18:55:17 [ht]
NM: We do indeed have such a blog
18:55:33 [ht]
... But we've used it for personal posting, rather than corporate
18:55:42 [ht]
NM: The entire finding?
18:55:55 [ht]
AM: It's long for a blog post, isn't it?
18:56:08 [ht]
... Maybe take one part of it -- extract highlights?
18:56:12 [JeniT]
+1 for a series
18:56:23 [ht]
PL: Break it up into a series of articles would be fine
18:56:40 [ht]
18:56:55 [ht]
AM: One on copyright, one on linking vs. embedding
18:57:20 [ht]
NM: I'm concerned about the archival status of blog posts, compared to, say, W3C notes
18:57:45 [ht]
... Putting smaller pieces where they could be useful, yes, but not sure about doing it via a blog
18:57:52 [ht]
NM: So what about notes?
18:58:21 [ht]
NM: So some dimensions: how formal; what mechanism; how much TAG consensus required
18:59:26 [ht]
... And beyond the TAG, e.g. LM had been interested in the fact that REC-track gives some community buy-in
18:59:27 [noah]
ACTION: Yves to figure out where our old TAG blog stuff is.
18:59:27 [trackbot]
Created ACTION-778 - Figure out where our old TAG blog stuff is. [on Yves Lafon - due 2013-01-31].
18:59:39 [ht]
PL: CSS has its own blog. . .
18:59:55 [annevk]
annevk has joined #tagmem
19:00:07 [ht]
NM: Sure, just there is a history which we need to hook up with
19:00:11 [annevk]
Zakim, details?
19:00:11 [Zakim]
I don't understand your question, annevk.
19:00:18 [annevk]
Zakim, passcode?
19:00:18 [Zakim]
the conference code is 0824 (tel:+1.617.761.6200, annevk
19:00:35 [ht]
PL: OK, let's try moving that forward again
19:00:53 [ht]
... tweet about it, and improve its visibility
19:00:55 [noah]
. ACTION: Noah to schedule F2F discussion of whether and how to pursue Publishing and Linking
19:01:17 [ht]
AM: Yes
19:01:28 [noah]
ACTION: Noah to schedule F2F discussion of whether and how to pursue Publishing and Linking - Due 2013-03-01
19:01:28 [trackbot]
Created ACTION-779 - schedule F2F discussion of whether and how to pursue Publishing and Linking [on Noah Mendelsohn - due 2013-03-01].
19:01:31 [Zakim]
19:01:48 [ht]
zakim, ? is annevk
19:01:48 [Zakim]
+annevk; got it
19:03:14 [ht]
Topic: Future of Privacy by design note and related privacy issues
19:03:29 [noah]
19:03:29 [trackbot]
ACTION-774 -- Peter Linss to frame F2F discussion of Privacy by design note, and possible followup up with privacy group. Due: 2013-01-08 -- due 2012-12-20 -- OPEN
19:03:29 [trackbot]
19:04:03 [ht]
NM: This started with work by Dan Appelquist wrt Javascript APIs for minimal disclosure
19:04:04 [slightlyoff]
"object capabilities"
19:04:18 [ht]
AM: Minimization
19:04:45 [ht]
NM: Then Robin Berjon shifted the focus, as Dan A. left the TAG
19:04:51 [ht]
... And then Robin left
19:05:05 [Ashok]
19:05:09 [noah]
19:05:12 [noah]
ack nextg
19:05:15 [noah]
ack next
19:05:19 [ht]
NM: And PL was given the action to take the existing content, slightly cleaned up, and publish it as a Note
19:05:50 [ht]
AM: And we also agreed to ask the Privacy [WG?] to take this over
19:06:13 [ht]
... Also, Nick [?] is writing a document about fingerprinting, which makes up about half the content of our draft
19:06:16 [noah]
19:06:18 [ht]
NM: So?
19:06:23 [ht]
AM: Abandon it
19:06:28 [Ashok]
s/Nock Doty/
19:06:42 [ht]
s/Nick [?]/Nick Doty/
19:06:48 [Ashok]
s/Nick/Nick Doty/
19:07:07 [ht]
s/Nick Nick Doty/Nick Doty/
19:07:29 [ht]
AM: I have had no answer from Pxx
19:07:38 [ht]
NM: Draft me an email and I'll send it
19:08:10 [ht]
PL: The idea was that by publishing it as a Note we could hand it over to PING
19:08:11 [Ashok]
19:08:24 [noah]
ACTION: Ashok to draft note to PING asking them to pick up our incomplete work on privacy by design by APIs
19:08:25 [trackbot]
Created ACTION-780 - Draft note to PING asking them to pick up our incomplete work on privacy by design by APIs [on Ashok Malhotra - due 2013-01-31].
19:08:38 [ht]
s/Privacy [WG?]/Privacy Interest Group (PING)/
19:09:25 [ht]
NM: I'll wait a few days for comments from TAG members and then send it -- use for that, please
19:09:28 [Ashok]
19:09:53 [ht]
Topic: ISSUE-57
19:10:49 [noah]
HT: Jonathan and I made some progress at MIT in November. I will take this forward. Jeni's awaiting comments. Teaching full time. Won't do much between now and end of March
19:11:32 [noah]
Try this link
19:11:40 [ht]
HST: JAR and I have made some progress, JT has improved her draft, we will make some progress but not much in the next few weeks
19:11:48 [noah]
It's really more than ISSUE-57, we sort of use that as a shorthand name.
19:11:53 [ht]
NM: How about a briefing at the F2F?
19:12:03 [ht]
HST: Maybe -- ask me in a month
19:12:27 [noah]
ACTION: Jeni to prepare reading and discussion on Defining URIS (ISSUE-57) for March F2F - Due 2013-03-01
19:12:27 [trackbot]
Created ACTION-781 - prepare reading and discussion on Defining URIS (ISSUE-57) for March F2F [on Jeni Tennison - due 2013-03-01].
19:12:38 [ht]
JT: Yes -- I think it's appropriate to aim for feedback on the Primer and discussion about next steps
19:12:56 [Zakim]
19:12:57 [JeniT]
ScribeNick: JeniT
19:13:10 [JeniT]
noah: this is also known as httpRange14
19:13:35 [JeniT]
noah: this issue is about how to get information about things that aren't documents using HTTP
19:14:21 [JeniT]
noah: why don't we have a session on F2F topics on next week's telcon
19:14:35 [JeniT]
noah: please send emails with suggestions to the public mailing list
19:14:53 [wycats]
noah: can you put a "layering" item on the F2F agenda. I could write up a sentence or paragraph if that would be helpful
19:15:22 [JeniT]
Topic: XML/HTML Unification
19:15:43 [JeniT]
noah: is there anything useful we can do about this today?
19:15:51 [JeniT]
noah: I have an action to announce that it's done
19:16:05 [Ashok]
Here is a link to the Privacy by Design document:
19:16:36 [JeniT]
noah: I took an action to schedule discussion of the DOM stuff at the F2F
19:16:40 [slightlyoff]
thanks Ashok
19:16:48 [JeniT]
… there's a raging discussion on polyglot on both the HTML and TAG mailing lists
19:17:13 [JeniT]
… in part in reaction to the TAG's reply to Henri
19:17:34 [wycats]
I am happy to wait until the F2F to discuss so that the new members can get a high-bandwidth dump of existing perspectives
19:17:39 [slightlyoff]
19:17:39 [JeniT]
… I'll wait to see what else people ask for me to schedule around this topic
19:17:41 [slightlyoff]
19:17:43 [slightlyoff]
my fault
19:17:50 [noah]
ack next
19:18:05 [wycats]
19:18:07 [wycats]
19:18:26 [JeniT]
Alex: I'd like to understand what's driving our interest here?
19:18:50 [JeniT]
… what's the architectural principle, or is it because there's a disagreement?
19:19:02 [JeniT]
noah: can we defer that to when Tim and/or Henry are with us?
19:19:44 [JeniT]
… while HTML&JSON are increasingly being used, XML is still an important technology
19:20:13 [JeniT]
… some people feel that publishing polyglot could help meet the requirements of those that want to publish HTML with an XML flavour
19:20:25 [JeniT]
… we asked for the publication of the polyglot document
19:20:42 [JeniT]
Anne: I was on the TF, and maybe the TAG asked for polyglot, but the TF didn't
19:20:58 [JeniT]
noah: the TF surveyed the field, yes
19:21:08 [JeniT]
… the TAG went further than the TF
19:21:11 [noah]
19:21:21 [noah]
ack next
19:21:47 [JeniT]
Yehuda: I think this is related to some of the issues that the new TAG members are interested in
19:21:56 [JeniT]
… and we should have a discussion about this in a F2F
19:22:17 [JeniT]
noah: we sometimes get requests that we have to respond to more quickly
19:22:35 [JeniT]
Yehuda: we should respond to those, but a F2F discussion would be useful
19:22:57 [noah]
ACTION: Noah to schedule F2F discussion of polyglot, the TAG's request to HTML WG on polygot, and HTML/XML Unification - Due 2013-03-01
19:22:57 [trackbot]
Created ACTION-782 - schedule F2F discussion of polyglot, the TAG's request to HTML WG on polygot, and HTML/XML Unification [on Noah Mendelsohn - due 2013-03-01].
19:23:09 [noah]
19:23:52 [JeniT]
noah: please could existing TAG members go through your actions and either close them or send me email about what you want to do with them
19:24:14 [JeniT]
… if there are other things that you want to discuss next week, please email them to me
19:24:27 [slightlyoff]
I won't be able to attend next week's call (on vacation). Regrets.
19:24:46 [JeniT]
I will scribe next week
19:24:53 [Zakim]
19:24:54 [noah]
19:24:54 [Zakim]
19:24:58 [Zakim]
19:24:59 [Zakim]
19:24:59 [Zakim]
19:25:00 [Zakim]
19:25:08 [Zakim]
19:25:36 [Zakim]
19:25:58 [JeniT]
rrsagent, draft minutes
19:25:58 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate JeniT
19:35:00 [Zakim]
disconnecting the lone participant, noah, in TAG_Weekly()1:00PM
19:35:02 [Zakim]
TAG_Weekly()1:00PM has ended
19:35:02 [Zakim]
Attendees were Marcos, JeniT, ht, wycats, plinss, Ashok_Malhotra, Yves, +1.212.565.aaaa, noah, slightlyoff, annevk
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