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08:04:14 <fsasaki> meeting: mlw-lt f2f
08:04:16 <fsasaki> chair: felix
08:04:22 <fsasaki> agenda: http://www.w3.org/International/multilingualweb/lt/wiki/PragueJan2013f2f#Thursday
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08:08:20 <fsasaki> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-multilingualweb-lt-comments/2013Jan/0123.html
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08:11:05 <kfritsche> present+ Karl
08:11:12 <fsasaki> topic: issue-113
08:11:12 <fsasaki> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-multilingualweb-lt-comments/2013Jan/0123.html
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08:12:05 <kfritsche> present+ swalter
08:12:59 <fsasaki> action: arle to do copy-edtiing on the spec - due 1 april
08:12:59 <trackbot> Created ACTION-422 - do copy-edtiing on the spec [on Arle Lommel - due 2013-04-01].
08:13:40 <truedesheim> present+ truedesheim
08:17:36 <fsasaki> action: felix to to edits for issue-113
08:17:36 <trackbot> Created ACTION-423 - To edits for issue-113 [on Felix Sasaki - due 2013-01-31].
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08:27:35 <fsasaki> "Information (e.g. "translate this") captured by ITS markup (e.g. its:translate='yes') always pertains to one or more XML or HTML nodes (primarily element and attribute nodes). "
08:28:00 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2013/01/24-mlw-lt-minutes.html fsasaki
08:28:05 <fsasaki> scribe: fsasaki
08:38:01 <pnietoca> I found another typo
08:38:32 <pnietoca> on section 5.8 the paragraph before example 26
08:38:40 <pnietoca> says: On any given node, the information provided by this mechanism is a space-separated list of the accumulated references found "it" the annotatorsRef attributes declared in the enclosing elements and sorted by data category identifiers. For each data category, the IRI part is the one of the inner-most "declarartion".
08:39:21 <pnietoca> found "it" the annotatorsRef > it should be in
08:39:35 <pnietoca> declarartion should be declaration
08:42:55 <Arle> I just raised an issue for what you found: https://www.w3.org/International/multilingualweb/lt/track/issues/114
08:55:43 <Arle> Action: Arle to fix section 8.9 note: "since the extra training resources does not justify the improvement in the output." -> "since the extra training resources do not justify the improvement in the output."
08:55:44 <trackbot> Created ACTION-424 - Fix section 8.9 note: "since the extra training resources does not justify the improvement in the output." -> "since the extra training resources do not justify the improvement in the output." [on Arle Lommel - due 2013-01-31].
08:58:02 <fsasaki> https://github.com/finnle/ITS-2.0-Testsuite/blob/master/its2.0/inputdata/domain/html/domain1htmlrules.xml
09:00:12 <fsasaki> action: ankit to change test suite for domain in HTML https://github.com/finnle/ITS-2.0-Testsuite/tree/master/its2.0/inputdata/domain/html , that is have "keywords" instead of "description" in the HTML and rules files
09:00:12 <trackbot> Created ACTION-425 - Change test suite for domain in HTML https://github.com/finnle/ITS-2.0-Testsuite/tree/master/its2.0/inputdata/domain/html , that is have "keywords" instead of "description" in the HTML and rules files [on Ankit Srivastava - due 2013-01-31].
09:02:11 <Yves_> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-multilingualweb-lt-comments/2013Jan/0158.html
09:04:04 <pnietoca> thanks Arle
09:08:52 <fsasaki> topic: rome + xml prague prep
09:09:28 <fsasaki> https://lists.w3.org/Archives/Member/member-multilingualweb-lt/2013Jan/0000.html
09:12:23 <Arle> Arle: I will be submitting new templates for the posters. They had been A1 size, but we are going for A0. Links will be sent out soon.
09:31:26 <fsasaki> action: arle to create an indicator for poster relations
09:31:26 <trackbot> Created ACTION-426 - Create an indicator for poster relations [on Arle Lommel - due 2013-01-31].
09:32:20 <fsasaki> action: felix to nudge people for a first poster draft - 28 february
09:32:20 <trackbot> Created ACTION-427 - Nudge people for a first poster draft - 28 february [on Felix Sasaki - due 2013-01-31].
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10:00:45 <fsasaki> topic: disambiguation and terminology again
10:03:39 <fsasaki> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-multilingualweb-lt-comments/2013Jan/0163.html
10:03:45 <fsasaki> scribe: fsasaki
10:05:04 <dF> scribe: dF
10:05:24 <dF> Tadej: showing slides
10:05:41 <dF> .. seems there is a way that would not compromise ITS 1.0 term
10:06:07 <dF> .. several different attributes, now with two categories
10:06:55 <dF> .. simultaneous annotations on multiple granularity levels are not possible
10:07:26 <dF> .. currecntly, fragment is in relationship with a URI
10:07:43 <dF> .. but term is flag
10:07:58 <dF> .. Scenario A
10:08:28 <dF> .. term remains flag, but becomes a new granularity within disambiguation.
10:08:35 <dF> Issues:
10:08:57 <dF> .. multiple annotations still not possible
10:09:25 <dF> Felix: clarification, this should be possible through concatenated values
10:09:48 <dF> Tadej: Ugly but doable as an excercise..
10:10:08 <dF> Marcis: we discussed that
10:10:20 <dF> Tadej: did not seem a good idea
10:10:50 <dF> Another suggestion leading to B
10:11:17 <dF> .. granularitoes make sense indepenedently
10:11:26 <dF> .. terminology is just one level
10:11:49 <dF> .. having a set of attributes for every level
10:12:04 <dF> .. lots of new attributes
10:12:47 <dF> .. BUT everything can be done simultaneously and independently
10:13:23 <dF> .. multivalues seemed to require black magic to implement, gets ugly fast
10:13:39 <dF> .. decided to keep cardinality at 1
10:13:44 <dF> Scenario B
10:14:05 <dF> .. Keep terminology, drop granularity
10:14:37 <dF> .. encode the levels stright in attributes
10:15:17 <dF> Felix: clarification, separate data category identifier for each level?
10:15:39 <dF> Tadej: basically, yes, oterwise we would need subcategories
10:15:58 <dF> .. but the same pattern is always repeated, this should be good for adoption
10:16:58 <dF> .. it would be just a refactoring job
10:17:54 <dF> swalter: danger of semantic contradictions
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10:18:42 <dF> .. but it id not the formats issue to try and prevent this
10:19:27 <dF> Tadej: we were trying to avoid the host of the different attributes by introducing glanurity
10:19:50 <dF> Yves: is it a single data category, or four?
10:20:32 <dF> Tadej: technically they are different from the modelling point of view, but they have same pattern, so can be grouped
10:21:03 <dF> .. but they are independent in a sence and can go standalone..
10:21:45 <dF> Felix: What about implementation commitments? Do we enforce implementing all four, if one committs for one?
10:22:12 <dF> tadej: all it seems, but it is not requesting too much as they really are the same mechanism
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10:22:40 <Arle> (Off topic, but poster templates are here: https://dl.dropbox.com/u/223919/lt-web/RomeWorkshop/PosterTemplateA0.pptx [PowerPoint] and https://dl.dropbox.com/u/223919/lt-web/RomeWorkshop/PosterTemplateA0.pdf [PDF].)
10:22:44 <dF> .. they do not have different behaviors
10:23:07 <fsasaki> scribe: fssaki
10:23:09 <dF> scribe: Felix
10:23:18 <fsasaki> scribe: fssaki
10:23:47 <dF> Felix: are Christian's concerns addressed with this?
10:24:26 <dF> .. the starting point was wondering about the relationship between term and disambiguation
10:24:29 <fsasaki> tadej: we would simply rename things, but not break the model of term
10:24:39 <chriLi_> q+
10:25:07 <fsasaki> felix: how does scneario b relate to terminology?
10:25:30 <fsasaki> tadej: terminolgoy already conforms to the pattern of scenario b, that is why we said we keep it as is
10:25:44 <fsasaki> dave: we could not touch terminology at all
10:25:57 <fsasaki> .. the use cases that we want could all be done in disambiguation
10:26:16 <fsasaki> .. so we keep terminology but say that we can do everything now in disambiguation
10:26:38 <fsasaki> tadej: if there  is  a know term, would you use termInfoRef or disambigXxxRef?
10:26:52 <fsasaki> .. the relationships in disambiguation is in one pattern
10:27:00 <fsasaki> .. and term already follows the pattern already
10:27:11 <fsasaki> .. how to handle that in terms of data categories is a differetent aspect
10:27:31 <fsasaki> ack chr
10:30:16 <daveL> scribe: daveL
10:31:32 <daveL> christian: core of my point related to different levels of attribute for different annotaiton, ontology, lexical etc
10:32:06 <daveL> ... confirms that the proposal related to different data categories for these different levels
10:32:40 <daveL> tadej: one exception to common pattern in entity class ref  beign part of entity class
10:33:24 <daveL> christian: to be satisfied, is what do we do with the current class of terminology
10:34:01 <daveL> ... would suggest giving guidance by deprecating term through best practice advice
10:34:43 <daveL> felix: why would we deprecate the term option
10:35:38 <daveL> christian: meant depricating the current data term category
10:36:27 <daveL> felix: thing to proposal is that term is already following the pattern the proposed pattern, so it wouldn't changed
10:39:43 <daveL> tadej: suggested options are having term as a disambig option or as keep term as it is for this
10:41:19 <daveL> dave: could have both and as christian suggests give guideance on which oen to adopt of how to transation from term to term in disambiugate
10:42:26 <daveL> tadej: having both raises the issue that term could say 'yes' while disambig term option sa no, how should this be handled
10:43:01 <daveL> stephan: could be addressed at a schematron validation level
10:44:17 <daveL> felix: asks for input from implementors, but no strong perferences forthcoming
10:45:03 <daveL> tadej: note that this approach results in lots of new attribute
10:45:50 <daveL> ... also propose a catch all 'keyword' for things that don't fit into the defined categories
10:47:00 <daveL> .. some fragement of text that is important for someone
10:47:54 <daveL> christian: its good to consider support additional classes of analysis, but this isn't part of the comment to date
10:49:56 <daveL> felix: summarise, we don't have examples, spec text and commitment to implement for this proposal
10:50:50 <daveL> ... this requires some considerable effort before we are in  a position to gt consensus
10:52:04 <daveL> ... asks do the proposers have time to work on this to get it mature enough to even ask on consensus
10:52:17 <daveL> Christian: allocating time for me is difficult
10:53:41 <chriLi_> q+
10:54:32 <daveL> felix: as chair we really need to see this topic advance before we can ask concensus. It really needed by next week or two.
10:54:59 <daveL> ... in order to hit a last call draft end february
10:56:17 <daveL> Christian: does this proposal address the hiearchical NER issue raised by colleagues in India
10:56:51 <daveL> tadej: this is orthogonal, so ti doesn't solve problem
10:57:41 <daveL> stephan: can we agree on name, an acronym is really useful
10:59:13 <daveL> felix: can people complete work in the time
11:01:57 <daveL> yves: sceptical that this can be done in time given the amount of time and work involved in disambig to date
11:05:28 <daveL> yves: suggest that we go forward with other comments related to dismabig anyway, so these are not held up by looking at this proposal
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11:07:20 <daveL> dF: this would be a definite substantive change requiring a frther last call
11:07:47 <daveL> felix: there are other that are borderline
11:08:32 <daveL> rrsagent, generate minutes
11:08:32 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2013/01/24-mlw-lt-minutes.html daveL
11:15:33 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2013/01/24-mlw-lt-minutes.html fsasaki
11:15:59 <fsasaki> present+ christian(11-12)
11:16:00 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2013/01/24-mlw-lt-minutes.html fsasaki
11:21:54 <fsasaki> present+ felix
11:21:55 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2013/01/24-mlw-lt-minutes.html fsasaki
11:22:24 <fsasaki> s/scribe: Felix//
11:22:25 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2013/01/24-mlw-lt-minutes.html fsasaki
11:22:56 <fsasaki> s/scribe: fssaki//
11:22:57 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2013/01/24-mlw-lt-minutes.html fsasaki
11:23:37 <fsasaki> s/scribe: fssaki//
11:23:39 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2013/01/24-mlw-lt-minutes.html fsasaki
11:27:39 <fsasaki> issue-67: DECISION-DETAILS: substantive borderline change
11:27:39 <trackbot> Notes added to ISSUE-67 Change definition of regular expression for allowed characters.
11:28:13 <fsasaki> issue-68: DECISION-DETAILS: under discussion
11:28:13 <trackbot> Notes added to ISSUE-68 Disambiguation (and term).
11:30:56 <fsasaki> issue-71: DECISION-DETAILS: resolution to be clarified
11:30:56 <trackbot> Notes added to ISSUE-71 Section 5.8 (annotatorsRef).
11:31:42 <fsasaki> issue-72: DECISION-DETAILS: follow-up needed
11:31:42 <trackbot> Notes added to ISSUE-72 Section 8.12 (Provenance Data Category).
11:31:57 <fsasaki> issue-73: DECISION-DETAILS: follow-up needed
11:31:57 <trackbot> Notes added to ISSUE-73 NIF comments.
11:32:33 <fsasaki> issue-73: DECISION-DETAILS: follow-up needed
11:32:33 <trackbot> Notes added to ISSUE-73 NIF comments.
11:32:46 <fsasaki> issue-72: DECISION-DETAILS: clarification
11:32:46 <trackbot> Notes added to ISSUE-72 Section 8.12 (Provenance Data Category).
11:35:05 <fsasaki> issue-102: DECISION-DETAILS: borderline substantive
11:35:05 <trackbot> Notes added to ISSUE-102 I18N-ISSUE-242: Clarify case-insensitive match for domains [ITS-20].
11:37:40 <fsasaki> issue-110: DECISION-DETAILS: borderline substantive
11:37:40 <trackbot> Notes added to ISSUE-110 change to langRule: precedence of xml:lang and lang.
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13:12:30 <fsasaki> topic: action item and issue review
13:12:39 <Arle> Arle has joined #mlw-lt
13:12:46 <fsasaki> close action-36
13:12:46 <trackbot> Closed ACTION-36 Ongoing social media outreach of mlw.
13:13:02 <fsasaki> action-215?
13:13:02 <trackbot> ACTION-215 -- David Filip to generate a sample of testing involving XLIFF -- due 2013-02-04 -- OPEN
13:13:02 <trackbot> http://www.w3.org/International/multilingualweb/lt/track/actions/215
13:13:35 <Milan> Milan has joined #mlw-lt
13:14:14 <fsasaki> close action-309
13:14:14 <trackbot> Closed ACTION-309 pick up disambiguation granuliartiy best practices topic later.
13:14:25 <fsasaki> covered by ongoing disambig+term discussion
13:16:45 <fsasaki> close actoin-342
13:16:50 <fsasaki> close action-342
13:16:50 <trackbot> Closed ACTION-342 create mt confidence score example as described in http://www.w3.org/2012/11/29-mlw-lt-irc#T14-50-33.
13:16:57 <fsasaki> above not needed anymore
13:17:32 <fsasaki> close action-352
13:17:32 <trackbot> Closed ACTION-352 Prepare status report on Task 5.1.
13:17:34 <fsasaki> close action-353
13:17:34 <trackbot> Closed ACTION-353 Prepare status report on Task 5.2.
13:17:35 <fsasaki> close action-354
13:17:35 <trackbot> Closed ACTION-354 provide input about wp1.
13:17:47 <fsasaki> above done or tracked by felix
13:18:14 <fsasaki> close action-374
13:18:14 <trackbot> Closed ACTION-374 Distribute action items to define these tests and to provide guideance of how to formulate these tests against rcf2119 table.
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13:19:01 <fsasaki> close action-376
13:19:01 <trackbot> Closed ACTION-376 Pull this material on best practice together onto wiki for people to comment on.
13:19:31 <fsasaki> not needed for BP work now, covered with new tracker product https://www.w3.org/International/multilingualweb/lt/track/products/9
13:23:20 <fsasaki> close action-384
13:23:20 <trackbot> Closed ACTION-384 Make agenda proposal for Prague meeting about the XML prague day.
13:24:12 <fsasaki> close action-386
13:24:12 <trackbot> Closed ACTION-386 Contact original commenter and see whether Yves additions to comment are what was meant there.
13:24:30 <fsasaki> above done
13:24:34 <fsasaki> close action-387
13:24:34 <trackbot> Closed ACTION-387 Contact original commenter about real need of timestamp.
13:24:38 <fsasaki> above done
13:24:52 <fsasaki> close action-388
13:24:52 <trackbot> Closed ACTION-388 Come back to chase and kevin about discussion of issue-71 http://www.w3.org/2013/01/23-mlw-lt-irc#T08-34-49.
13:24:54 <fsasaki> above done
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13:30:47 <fsasaki> close action-402
13:30:47 <trackbot> Closed ACTION-402 Fix text and algo for domain case mapping.
13:30:58 <fsasaki> above done, including test cases
13:31:12 <fsasaki> close action-403
13:31:12 <trackbot> Closed ACTION-403 Check availability of Berlin on 17–18 June for face-to-face meeting..
13:31:36 <fsasaki> close action-406
13:31:37 <trackbot> Closed ACTION-406 Resize templates for posters from A1 to A0..
13:32:48 <fsasaki> close action-409
13:32:49 <trackbot> Closed ACTION-409 Follow up with Richard and Norbert on issue-92 and issue-103..
13:35:40 <fsasaki> topic: issue review
13:37:53 <fsasaki> borderline "another last call cases": issue-63, issue-67
13:38:05 <fsasaki> issue-71
13:38:05 <trackbot> ISSUE-71 -- Section 5.8 (annotatorsRef) -- open
13:38:05 <trackbot> http://www.w3.org/International/multilingualweb/lt/track/issues/71
13:38:20 <fsasaki> issue-102
13:38:20 <trackbot> ISSUE-102 -- I18N-ISSUE-242: Clarify case-insensitive match for domains [ITS-20] -- open
13:38:20 <trackbot> http://www.w3.org/International/multilingualweb/lt/track/issues/102
13:38:22 <fsasaki> issue-110
13:38:22 <trackbot> ISSUE-110 -- change to langRule: precedence of xml:lang and lang -- open
13:38:22 <trackbot> http://www.w3.org/International/multilingualweb/lt/track/issues/110
13:38:40 <fsasaki> and, in addition:
13:38:42 <fsasaki> issue-68
13:38:42 <trackbot> ISSUE-68 -- Disambiguation (and term) -- open
13:38:42 <trackbot> http://www.w3.org/International/multilingualweb/lt/track/issues/68
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13:40:53 <fsasaki> daveF: quite a number of borderline, so we might need another last call, let's check with the mgmt
13:43:30 <fsasaki> felix: two unknowns: ruby and directionality related comments
13:44:17 <fsasaki> daveF: even if we went to antother LC, I wouldn't change term and dissambiugation
13:46:43 <fsasaki> felix: worried about implementation committments for terminology and dissambig
13:47:00 <fsasaki> marcis: we have three for both terminology and disambiguation
13:47:42 <fsasaki> daveF: clean solution would require 4 categories
13:47:53 <fsasaki> marcis: and at the end it would be dropped
13:48:42 <fsasaki> felix: I don't see consensus on how to move forward
13:51:24 <fsasaki> .. let's see what the next weeks bring
14:03:09 <fsasaki> topic: BP publications
14:03:28 <fsasaki> discussing where to publish BP documents - TR space, via i18n WG, via ITS IG
14:05:03 <fsasaki> topic: meeting schedule
14:05:07 <fsasaki> f2f in bled and dublin confirmed
14:28:42 <Arle> Send any presentations missing from http://www.w3.org/International/multilingualweb/lt/2012-annual-report/presentations.html to Arle
14:31:06 <fsasaki> action: felix to come back to links to implemenations - due 28 Feburary
14:31:06 <trackbot> Created ACTION-428 - come back to links to implemenations [on Felix Sasaki - due 1970-01-01].
15:03:59 <fsasaki> topic: final event ideas
15:04:51 <fsasaki> yves: would be difficiutl to gather same crowd we have in rome 6 months later in europe
15:05:16 <fsasaki> .. there are events at the end of the year in the states, e.g. Uncode / locworld etc. wich we could target
15:05:47 <fsasaki> .. so we could try to do something  as a group
15:06:15 <fsasaki> .. use that as a complement to the european outreach we will do in Rome
15:08:41 <fsasaki> unicode conf. is 21-13 october
15:09:52 <fsasaki> topic: best practices
15:10:14 <fsasaki> https://www.w3.org/International/multilingualweb/lt/track/products/9
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15:11:03 <daveL> present+ DaveLewis
15:11:03 <fsasaki> https://www.w3.org/International/multilingualweb/lt/track/products/8
15:11:22 <fsasaki> xliff - ITS relation
15:11:35 <fsasaki> disambiguation vs. term (depending on current discussion)
15:11:54 <leroy> present+ leroy
15:12:03 <Milan> present+ Milan
15:12:09 <fsasaki> mapping to provenance - dave
15:12:31 <fsasaki> xliff vs. ITS - dave, david, yves
15:13:12 <fsasaki> http://www.w3.org/International/multilingualweb/lt/wiki/XLIFF_Mapping
15:26:59 <fsasaki> localization quality issue / rating related BP - arle, this summer, related to QTLaunchpad
15:28:27 <fsasaki> how to use (populate & consume) mt-confidence and domain - ankit
15:30:35 <fsasaki> above would include about m4loc
15:33:12 <fsasaki> http://www.w3.org/International/multilingualweb/lt/wiki/Use_cases_-_high_level_summary
15:35:37 <fsasaki> how to use storage size - stefan
15:35:45 <fsasaki> s/stefan/stephan/
15:36:00 <fsasaki> high level summary based on http://www.w3.org/International/multilingualweb/lt/wiki/Use_cases_-_high_level_summary - felix
15:37:01 <fsasaki> http://www.w3.org/International/multilingualweb/lt/wiki/Deliverables
15:38:26 <fsasaki> co-ordinate EU reports http://www.w3.org/International/multilingualweb/lt/wiki/Deliverables with BP documents
15:45:56 <fsasaki> http://www.w3.org/2008/12/its-extensions
15:48:15 <fsasaki> action: felix to check xliff ITS mapping namespace hosting in w3c
15:48:15 <trackbot> Created ACTION-429 - Check xliff ITS mapping namespace hosting in w3c [on Felix Sasaki - due 2013-01-31].
15:51:41 <fsasaki> use of term - stephan, tadej and marcis. Depends on how we proceed with term vs. disambiguation issue
15:52:54 <fsasaki> topic: disambiguation again
15:53:05 <fsasaki> tadej: need to clarify: do we need granularity at all?
15:53:24 <fsasaki> .. if not, we don't need to merge disambiguation and terminonlogy
15:53:33 <fsasaki> .. will ask that question on the list
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15:57:39 <fsasaki> thanks to all for the meeting, adjourned!
15:57:42 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2013/01/24-mlw-lt-minutes.html fsasaki
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