IRC log of dap on 2013-01-23

Timestamps are in UTC.

14:42:51 [RRSAgent]
RRSAgent has joined #dap
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logging to
14:42:53 [trackbot]
RRSAgent, make logs world
14:42:53 [Zakim]
Zakim has joined #dap
14:42:55 [trackbot]
Zakim, this will be DAP
14:42:55 [Zakim]
ok, trackbot; I see UW_DAP()10:00AM scheduled to start in 18 minutes
14:42:56 [trackbot]
Meeting: Device APIs Working Group Teleconference
14:42:56 [trackbot]
Date: 23 January 2013
14:43:46 [fjh]
14:43:59 [fjh]
fjh has changed the topic to: dap 3279 ; agenda
14:44:17 [fjh]
Chair: Frederick_Hirsch
14:44:35 [fjh]
Present+ Frederick_Hirsch
14:55:28 [Zakim]
UW_DAP()10:00AM has now started
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14:56:49 [Zakim]
14:56:55 [fjh]
zakim, [IPcaller] is me
14:56:55 [Zakim]
+fjh; got it
14:57:09 [Josh_Soref]
Scribe: Josh_Soref
14:58:21 [gmandyam]
gmandyam has joined #dap
14:59:52 [Zakim]
+ +1.858.750.aaaa
15:00:13 [gmandyam]
Zakim, aaaa is gmandyam
15:00:13 [Zakim]
+gmandyam; got it
15:01:10 [Zakim]
15:01:12 [dom]
Zakim, ??P5 is me
15:01:12 [Zakim]
+dom; got it
15:01:36 [Milan_Patel]
Milan_Patel has joined #dap
15:02:05 [dom]
Zakim, who's on the phone?
15:02:05 [Zakim]
On the phone I see Josh_Soref, fjh, gmandyam, dom
15:03:02 [Zakim]
15:03:08 [dcheng3]
dcheng3 has joined #dap
15:03:22 [Zakim]
+ +1.720.934.aabb
15:03:46 [Josh_Soref]
Zakim, where is +1720?
15:03:46 [Zakim]
North American dialing code 1.720 is Colorado
15:03:53 [Zakim]
+ +
15:03:59 [fjh]
zakim, aabb is clarke
15:03:59 [Zakim]
+clarke; got it
15:04:08 [Zakim]
15:04:12 [fjh]
zakim, where is +46?
15:04:12 [Zakim]
country code 46 is Sweden
15:04:17 [AnssiK]
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15:04:21 [dom]
Zakim, aacc is Claes
15:04:21 [Zakim]
+Claes; got it
15:04:26 [dcheng3]
Present+ Diana_Cheng
15:04:27 [AnssiK]
Present+ Anssi_Kostiainen
15:04:50 [Josh_Soref]
RRSAgent, draft minutes
15:04:50 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate Josh_Soref
15:04:54 [Josh_Soref]
RRSAgent, make logs public
15:04:56 [Josh_Soref]
RRSAgent, draft minutes
15:04:56 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate Josh_Soref
15:04:59 [Zakim]
15:05:05 [AnssiK]
zakim, ??P14 is me
15:05:06 [Zakim]
+AnssiK; got it
15:05:18 [Cathy]
Cathy has joined #dap
15:05:30 [fjh]
Welcome, Shuning, CNGI,
15:05:33 [richt]
richt has joined #dap
15:05:43 [Josh_Soref]
i/Welcome/Topic: Welcome
15:05:44 [Claes]
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15:05:44 [fjh]
No call next week - 30 January 2013 teleconference has been cancelled. Next call 6 Feb.
15:06:05 [dom]
q+ to note that Feb 6 overlap with WebRTC WG (although not necessarily media cap stuff)
15:06:13 [fjh]
ack Dom
15:06:13 [Zakim]
dom, you wanted to note that Feb 6 overlap with WebRTC WG (although not necessarily media cap stuff)
15:06:18 [Claes]
Present+ Claes_Nilsson
15:06:20 [Josh_Soref]
fjh: propose canceling 13th
15:06:24 [Josh_Soref]
dom: no objection
15:06:33 [fjh]
proposed RESOLUTION: Draft minutes from 16 January 2013 are approved.
15:06:40 [Josh_Soref]
... on feb 6th, if there's a meeting, i'll have to send regrets
15:06:56 [Clarke]
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15:06:59 [Zakim]
15:06:59 [Josh_Soref]
... the Media Capture F2F will also include the 6th
15:07:07 [Josh_Soref]
fjh: i was confused about the schedule
15:07:13 [bryan]
bryan has joined #dap
15:07:23 [Josh_Soref]
dom: my understanding is MC will include Wednesday morning Eastern Time
15:07:33 [gmandyam]
Isn't there a joint meeting between Media Capture TF and WebRTC during the interim?
15:07:36 [Josh_Soref]
Josh_Soref: i think there are enough attendees
15:07:44 [gmandyam]
Giri Mandyam will be attending
15:07:48 [Zakim]
15:07:52 [Josh_Soref]
15:08:06 [Josh_Soref]
s/Giri Mandyam/gmandyam: I/
15:08:16 [Josh_Soref]
fjh: i was thinking of just stepping out for a brief call
15:08:42 [richt]
richt has joined #dap
15:08:44 [fjh]
proposed RESOLUTION: Draft minutes from 16 January 2013 are approved.
15:08:50 [Josh_Soref]
RESOLUTION: Draft minutes from 16 January 2013 are approved.
15:09:01 [fjh]
proposed RESOLUTION: cancel 13 Feb teleconference
15:09:12 [Josh_Soref]
RESOLUTION: 13 Feb teleconference is canceled
15:09:22 [Josh_Soref]
s/RESOLUTION: Draft minutes from 16 January 2013 are approved.//
15:09:26 [Josh_Soref]
Topic: Minutes Approval
15:09:28 [fjh]
15:09:32 [Josh_Soref]
RESOLUTION: Draft minutes from 16 January 2013 are approved.
15:09:50 [Josh_Soref]
Topic: Ambient Light
15:09:55 [fjh]
"the LightLevelState enum needs to have an empty string value. Right now, the spec is inconsistent with the IDL, as it says to sometimes set attributes that are typed as LightLevelState to the empty string, but that is an invalid value." (Tab)
15:10:17 [fjh]
Duplicate Attribute definitions
15:10:26 [fjh]
15:10:54 [Josh_Soref]
fjh: AnssiK, so you found and fixed a bug which related to duplicate geneation?
15:10:59 [Josh_Soref]
15:11:08 [Josh_Soref]
AnssiK: yes, and i submitted a pull request, and it was integrated
15:11:23 [Josh_Soref]
fjh: so it's live?
15:11:28 [Josh_Soref]
... yes, i see that section is gone
15:11:56 [Josh_Soref]
fjh: some things are on Navigator, and some are on Window
15:12:02 [Josh_Soref]
... anne asked why Window
15:12:06 [AnssiK]
15:12:11 [Josh_Soref]
... is this an oversight or intentional?
15:12:12 [Josh_Soref]
ack AnssiK
15:12:14 [fjh]
ack AnssiK
15:12:18 [Josh_Soref]
AnssiK: my understanding is that
15:12:30 [Josh_Soref]
... anne meant whether we restricted to top-level-browsing context
15:12:36 [Josh_Soref]
... i have to send an email to anne
15:12:40 [Josh_Soref]
... i looked at Gecko's code
15:12:47 [Josh_Soref]
... it should be browsing context window object
15:13:00 [Josh_Soref]
... basically Background tabs/windows wouldn't get notifications
15:13:07 [Josh_Soref]
... let's see what dougt says
15:13:18 [Josh_Soref]
fjh: and why do we use navigator/window?
15:13:25 [Josh_Soref]
AnssiK: i think it's historical reasons
15:13:37 [Josh_Soref]
... Window is used for event because DeviceOrientation used it
15:13:45 [Josh_Soref]
fjh: it seems Navigator makes more sense overall
15:13:52 [Josh_Soref]
AnssiK: for events, Window has been the place
15:14:05 [Josh_Soref]
... other APIs following the GeoLocation pattern have used Navigator
15:14:09 [Josh_Soref]
fjh: what about Battery?
15:14:14 [Josh_Soref]
AnssiK: it's a hybrid
15:14:21 [Josh_Soref]
... a sync API and event handlers
15:14:30 [Josh_Soref]
... bike-shedding where these should live is fun
15:14:38 [Josh_Soref]
... but Rick is getting up to speed
15:14:45 [Josh_Soref]
... and he'll create a new proposal for sensors
15:15:07 [Josh_Soref]
fjh: i think it's important for usability/consistency over time
15:15:20 [Josh_Soref]
... i think at some point there will be an issue getting things over time
15:15:40 [Josh_Soref]
... if implementers don't have a deep concern, then we don't have a reason to change
15:15:49 [Josh_Soref]
... if anyone has a concern, please comment on the list (or call)
15:15:52 [Josh_Soref]
... thanks AnssiK
15:15:58 [Josh_Soref]
... i'll close the LC issues
15:16:22 [Josh_Soref]
s/Topic: Ambient Light/Topic: Ambient Light and Proximity/
15:16:28 [Josh_Soref]
fjh: oh, and Queuing
15:16:39 [Josh_Soref]
... AnssiK, did you do something for that?
15:16:41 [Josh_Soref]
AnssiK: yes
15:16:56 [Josh_Soref]
Topic: Web Intents / Web Activities
15:18:07 [fjh]
in the process of following up with Greg and Mounir to determine status of their work with WebIntents
15:18:46 [fjh]
Declarative Invocation - some interesting thoughts on the list
15:19:04 [fjh]
issue with proposed change of work venue however,
15:19:25 [Josh_Soref]
fjh: he sent a provocative message
15:19:34 [Josh_Soref]
... i sent a reply saying it wasn't a good idea
15:19:35 [Josh_Soref]
15:19:55 [Josh_Soref]
... there was a private +1 from the team
15:20:26 [Josh_Soref]
... i think that message of his is moot
15:20:35 [Josh_Soref]
... i think he has ideas on Declarative that might be helpful
15:20:46 [Josh_Soref]
dom: i agree, the issue is moot
15:20:52 [Josh_Soref]
... i wouldn't even call it an issue
15:21:01 [Josh_Soref]
... it's good that you clarified that to him
15:21:19 [Josh_Soref]
... the lack of activity in the TF is worrisome
15:21:25 [Josh_Soref]
... i hope we'll see movement in this space soon
15:21:34 [Josh_Soref]
fjh: the work is really the work of the entire TF
15:21:41 [Josh_Soref]
... mounir and greg are really implementers
15:21:58 [Josh_Soref]
... Claes, you're also involved
15:22:04 [Josh_Soref]
... i don't want to throw your work away either
15:22:11 [Josh_Soref]
Claes: thinking about what's happening here
15:22:22 [Josh_Soref]
... greg stated there were usability issues
15:22:30 [Josh_Soref]
... there wasn't clear action
15:22:59 [Josh_Soref]
... i think we need a clear statement from those guys
15:23:14 [Josh_Soref]
fjh: i think we need to look more closely at the declarative stuff that fred was talking about
15:23:25 [Josh_Soref]
... fred had some ideas
15:23:37 [Josh_Soref]
... jhawkins said why don't you make a proposal
15:23:44 [Josh_Soref]
... and fred made something more detailed
15:23:46 [Josh_Soref]
15:24:13 [fjh]
ack Josh_Soref
15:24:15 [Josh_Soref]
fjh: we need to figure out how to get this going forward
15:24:22 [Josh_Soref]
Zakim, who is making noise?
15:24:34 [Zakim]
Josh_Soref, listening for 11 seconds I heard sound from the following: Josh_Soref (100%), AnssiK (52%)
15:24:38 [dom]
Zakim, mute AnssiK
15:24:38 [Zakim]
AnssiK should now be muted
15:24:43 [Josh_Soref]
Zakim, mute me
15:24:43 [Zakim]
Josh_Soref should now be muted
15:25:32 [Josh_Soref]
topic: F2F planning
15:25:38 [Josh_Soref]
fjh: we're talking about mid-may possibly
15:25:59 [Josh_Soref]
... i have a reservation for burlington, ma, but we were there before
15:26:04 [Josh_Soref]
... i know dcheng3 is looking
15:26:07 [Josh_Soref]
dcheng3: nothing new to share
15:26:15 [Josh_Soref]
... i'll give a shout when i get an answer
15:26:20 [Josh_Soref]
... in London we have room for 20
15:26:56 [Josh_Soref]
fjh: and bryan is also looking
15:27:39 [Josh_Soref]
dom: one of the main values of the F2F is making progress on Web Intents
15:27:43 [fjh]
we need a clear goal for F2f, eg. webintents
15:27:45 [Josh_Soref]
... and making sure we're aligned
15:27:59 [Josh_Soref]
... if we have no clear path, then i'm not sure the F2F would provide useful input
15:28:05 [Josh_Soref]
... the two seem strongly bound
15:28:22 [Josh_Soref]
topic: Media Capture
15:28:32 [fjh]
5-7 February F2F, Bedford MA, registration and logistics,
15:28:42 [fjh]
MediaStream Recording draft:
15:28:49 [fjh]
Media Capture and Streams:
15:28:54 [gmandyam]
15:28:58 [Josh_Soref]
15:29:08 [Josh_Soref]
fjh: there's a CfC coming
15:29:12 [Josh_Soref]
... for recording
15:29:17 [Josh_Soref]
... and i'll forward it
15:29:19 [Josh_Soref]
ack gmandyam
15:29:24 [fjh]
ack gmandyam
15:29:32 [Josh_Soref]
gmandyam: i voiced an objection to that in the TF
15:29:40 [Josh_Soref]
... i've asked the editors to clarify who owns the deliverable
15:29:50 [Josh_Soref]
... afaict it should be documented in the charter
15:30:00 [Josh_Soref]
... their text seems to indicate it's owned by the webrtc
15:30:05 [Josh_Soref]
dom: i understand your concern
15:30:18 [Josh_Soref]
... i think it just was forgotten in all the work they have to do
15:30:24 [Josh_Soref]
... it's understood it's a joint-deliverable
15:30:31 [Josh_Soref]
... the bug will be fixed as soon as possible
15:30:38 [fjh]
expect to have CfC for Media Stream Recording, will forward to this wg as well
15:30:41 [Josh_Soref]
gmandyam: my understanding is that Charter should be clear
15:30:54 [Josh_Soref]
... the MC TF just has an email from robin as a charter
15:31:04 [Josh_Soref]
dom: TFs don't exist in W3 process
15:31:11 [Josh_Soref]
... the charters to look at are WebRTC and DAP
15:31:23 [Josh_Soref]
... if you don't find something that covers that deliverable, then that's something worth an objection
15:31:33 [fjh]
15:31:38 [Josh_Soref]
... i will note that objecting to FPWD on technical grounds isn't usual
15:31:47 [Josh_Soref]
... the FPWD is just to roughly scope the work
15:31:54 [Josh_Soref]
... it isn't meant to be technically finished
15:31:59 [Josh_Soref]
... it's just setting a stake to the ground
15:32:16 [Josh_Soref]
... when i give objections, it isn't about semantics, it's about scope/ip
15:32:30 [Josh_Soref]
fjh: i think it should say in Status that it's a deliverable of DAP+WebRTC
15:32:35 [Josh_Soref]
... it doesn't say that now
15:32:35 [dom]
s/... when/gmandyam: when/
15:32:47 [Josh_Soref]
.... dom's right, everything can change
15:32:54 [Josh_Soref]
... but that's something the chairs should respond to
15:32:59 [Josh_Soref]
.... this is a heads-up
15:33:07 [Josh_Soref]
15:33:16 [Josh_Soref]
... it will be cross-posted
15:33:30 [Josh_Soref]
... i'll send a message about the status section. i think that should be corrected
15:33:35 [Josh_Soref]
topic: Editorial Best Practices
15:33:46 [Josh_Soref]
fjh: we published ReSpec ED recently
15:33:50 [Josh_Soref]
... which caused dates to change
15:34:07 [Josh_Soref]
... if you have problems w/ ReSpec with your browser, then you can't view the document
15:34:14 [dom]
q+ to note I could automate that if needed
15:34:21 [Josh_Soref]
... i think editors should check in a version of the document that everyone can view
15:34:25 [Josh_Soref]
... tobie agrees with that
15:34:35 [Josh_Soref]
... tobie suggested dated versions
15:34:39 [bryan]
15:34:52 [Josh_Soref]
... i don't think it's a big deal for editors to check in the resultant document
15:34:59 [Josh_Soref]
... does anyone object to this?
15:35:13 [Josh_Soref]
... and maybe have our current documents updated to have an html version on the homepage?
15:35:16 [dom]
15:35:17 [Josh_Soref]
... AnssiK ?
15:35:18 [Zakim]
15:35:23 [fjh]
ack fjh
15:35:24 [AnssiK]
15:35:27 [fjh]
ack dom
15:35:27 [Zakim]
dom, you wanted to note I could automate that if needed
15:35:39 [Josh_Soref]
dom: i don't disagree in principle
15:35:47 [Josh_Soref]
... i think having a static document is helpful in many cases
15:35:54 [Josh_Soref]
... it's helpful for my webidl checker
15:36:02 [Josh_Soref]
... i think it's important that we not spend editors' time
15:36:13 [Josh_Soref]
... on menial tasks
15:36:23 [Josh_Soref]
... i think it should be fairly simple to automate
15:36:35 [Josh_Soref]
... if we have a convention for filenames
15:36:37 [fjh]
It is important to remember that a little time of the editor can save the time of many readers
15:36:44 [fjh]
ack anssik
15:36:52 [Josh_Soref]
... then i could have a script to generate the resultant file
15:36:57 [Josh_Soref]
AnssiK: i think we should automate it
15:37:11 [Josh_Soref]
... if you do multiple minor edits, then it's a lot of work
15:37:20 [Josh_Soref]
fjh: if you have 1 editor and 1000 readers
15:37:26 [Josh_Soref]
... then saving time for 1000 people is valuable
15:37:53 [Josh_Soref]
... if you don't version the name of the file, it doesn't take much time
15:38:03 [Josh_Soref]
... but if dom can automate this, then editor's don't have to deal w/ it
15:38:07 [Josh_Soref]
... which would be a win-win for everyone
15:38:09 [dom]
ACTION: Dom to look at automating generation of static docs out of respecs docs
15:38:10 [trackbot]
Created ACTION-611 - Look at automating generation of static docs out of respecs docs [on Dominique Hazaƫl-Massieux - due 2013-01-30].
15:38:23 [Josh_Soref]
... i think editors should spell-check, validate, link-check
15:38:39 [Josh_Soref]
dom: i agree editors have a responsibility to keep their document clean
15:38:45 [Josh_Soref]
... but it's one thing for TR/
15:38:48 [Josh_Soref]
... but another thing for ED/
15:38:58 [Josh_Soref]
... i'd rather keep ED/s as up-to-date as possible
15:39:07 [Zakim]
15:39:10 [Josh_Soref]
fjh: i'm not sure how to automate this
15:39:19 [Josh_Soref]
... i guess you could do this in ReSpec
15:39:40 [Josh_Soref]
... if you automate it, we should make sure other groups could take advantage of it as well
15:39:45 [Josh_Soref]
dom: i'll look into it
15:39:58 [Josh_Soref]
... and possibly make it available to other groups too
15:40:11 [Josh_Soref]
topic: Action Review
15:40:17 [Josh_Soref]
fjh: i'm not going to go through actions
15:40:20 [fjh]
15:40:20 [fjh]
15:40:45 [fjh]
15:40:45 [trackbot]
ACTION-523 -- Anssi Kostiainen to work on test cases for battery and vibration -- due 2012-08-31 -- OPEN
15:40:45 [trackbot]
15:40:54 [Josh_Soref]
AnssiK: when i get a device
15:41:11 [Josh_Soref]
topic: Other Business
15:41:24 [Josh_Soref]
fjh: we won't meet next week
15:41:28 [Josh_Soref]
... we might meet the following week
15:41:33 [Josh_Soref]
... thanks for your time
15:41:58 [Zakim]
15:42:00 [Zakim]
15:42:02 [Zakim]
15:42:03 [Zakim]
15:42:03 [Zakim]
15:42:06 [Zakim]
15:42:07 [Zakim]
15:42:10 [Zakim]
15:42:11 [Josh_Soref]
... gmandyam, i don't understand your technical bits, you'll need to followup with the TF chairs
15:42:19 [Josh_Soref]
... thanks Josh_Soref for scribing
15:42:22 [Josh_Soref]
trackbot, end meeting
15:42:22 [trackbot]
Zakim, list attendees
15:42:22 [Zakim]
As of this point the attendees have been Josh_Soref, fjh, +1.858.750.aaaa, gmandyam, dom, Milan_Patel, +1.720.934.aabb, +, clarke, dcheng3, Claes, AnssiK, bryan,
15:42:25 [Zakim]
... Cathy
15:42:27 [Zakim]
15:42:29 [Zakim]
UW_DAP()10:00AM has ended
15:42:29 [Zakim]
Attendees were Josh_Soref, fjh, +1.858.750.aaaa, gmandyam, dom, Milan_Patel, +1.720.934.aabb, +, clarke, dcheng3, Claes, AnssiK, bryan, Cathy
15:42:30 [trackbot]
RRSAgent, please draft minutes
15:42:30 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate trackbot
15:42:31 [trackbot]
RRSAgent, bye
15:42:31 [RRSAgent]
I see 1 open action item saved in :
15:42:31 [RRSAgent]
ACTION: Dom to look at automating generation of static docs out of respecs docs [1]
15:42:31 [RRSAgent]
recorded in