IRC log of egov on 2013-01-21

Timestamps are in UTC.

09:02:50 [RRSAgent]
RRSAgent has joined #egov
09:02:50 [RRSAgent]
logging to
09:02:57 [PhilA2]
zakim, code?
09:02:58 [Zakim]
sorry, PhilA2, I don't know what conference this is
09:03:04 [PhilA2]
zakim, this is egov
09:03:04 [Zakim]
ok, PhilA2; that matches T&S_EGOV(Eurasian)4:00AM
09:03:09 [PhilA2]
zakim, code?
09:03:09 [Zakim]
the conference code is 3468 (tel:+1.617.761.6200, PhilA2
09:03:12 [SamG]
SamG has joined #egov
09:03:13 [Zakim]
+ +1.703.281.aadd
09:03:39 [Zakim]
09:03:43 [tomasz]
09:03:43 [Zakim]
09:03:47 [PhilA2]
zakim, IPcalled.a is me
09:03:47 [Zakim]
sorry, PhilA2, I do not recognize a party named 'IPcalled.a'
09:03:48 [tomasz]
are you there?
09:03:54 [PhilA2]
zakim, IPcaller.a is me
09:03:54 [Zakim]
+PhilA2; got it
09:04:43 [Zakim]
09:05:26 [BRAND]
BRAND has joined #egov
09:05:31 [laurenceNZ]
laurenceNZ has joined #egov
09:05:57 [PhilA2]
09:06:05 [SamG]
RRSAgent, make records public
09:06:26 [SamG]
zakim, who is here?
09:06:26 [Zakim]
On the phone I see +88697069aaaa, +8532871aacc, +1.703.281.aadd, PhilA2, ??P2
09:06:28 [Zakim]
On IRC I see laurenceNZ, BRAND, SamG, RRSAgent, Zakim, PhilA2, fhenning, thschee, Keitha_, tomasz, Keitha, heath, trackbot, sandro
09:06:38 [Zakim]
09:07:04 [thschee]
zakim, ??P2 is me
09:07:04 [Zakim]
+thschee; got it
09:07:21 [Zakim]
+ +3539149aaee
09:07:32 [GwynSutherlin]
GwynSutherlin has joined #egov
09:07:45 [PhilA2]
zakim, aadd is Brand
09:07:45 [Zakim]
+Brand; got it
09:08:11 [PhilA2]
zakim, aacc is tomasz
09:08:11 [Zakim]
+tomasz; got it
09:08:23 [PhilA2]
zakim, ??P2 is laurenceNZ
09:08:23 [Zakim]
I already had ??P2 as thschee, PhilA2
09:08:31 [thschee]
oops i should be +88697069aaaa
09:08:32 [thschee]
09:08:50 [PhilA2]
zakim, tomasz has florian
09:08:50 [Zakim]
+florian; got it
09:09:02 [fhenning]
Scribe: Florian Henning
09:09:13 [fhenning]
ScribeNick: fhenning
09:09:16 [PhilA2]
zakim, aaee is Deirdre
09:09:16 [Zakim]
+Deirdre; got it
09:09:21 [Zakim]
09:09:36 [PhilA2]
zakim, aaaa is thschee
09:09:36 [Zakim]
+thschee; got it
09:09:44 [BRAND] Additional backup slides for Brand Niemann
09:09:45 [PhilA2]
zakim, who is here?
09:09:45 [Zakim]
On the phone I see thschee.a, tomasz, Brand, PhilA2, thschee, [IPcaller], Deirdre, [IPcaller.a]
09:09:48 [Zakim]
tomasz has florian
09:09:48 [Zakim]
On IRC I see GwynSutherlin, laurenceNZ, BRAND, SamG, RRSAgent, Zakim, PhilA2, fhenning, thschee, Keitha_, tomasz, Keitha, heath, trackbot, sandro
09:09:54 [DeirdreLee]
DeirdreLee has joined #egov
09:10:00 [PhilA2]
zakim, IPcaller is Keitha
09:10:01 [Zakim]
+Keitha; got it
09:10:14 [PhilA2]
tomasz: Opens the meeting
09:10:20 [fhenning]
tomasz: welcomes everyone, introduces speakers
09:10:53 [SamG]
zakim, queue?
09:10:53 [Zakim]
I see no one on the speaker queue
09:11:27 [fhenning]
tomasz: asks for tour de table for personal introductions
09:11:36 [fhenning]
phil, i will be scribing
09:11:55 [PhilA2]
scribe: fhenning
09:12:03 [PhilA2]
scribeNick: fhenning
09:13:20 [SamG]
fhenning is scribing ... i am learning how to scribe
09:14:36 [fhenning]
thanks phil
09:14:55 [fhenning]
TOPIC: Open Government Information and Data in New Zealand (Keitha Booth)
09:15:12 [PhilA2]
slides are at
09:16:00 [fhenning]
Keitha_: slide2:
09:16:25 [fhenning]
Keitha_: ...Clear Cabinet decision and intent “proactive disclosure” OIA review
09:19:09 [fhenning]
phil, i'm sorry, audio is again too bad here - may i ask you to take over with scribing?
09:20:54 [fhenning]
thank you
09:21:05 [PhilA2]
slide 5 shows layers and importance of various factors
09:21:13 [PhilA2]
slide 6
09:21:39 [PhilA2]
Keitha: NZ Gov retains copyright
09:21:57 [PhilA2]
... uses Creative COmmons, mostly ccBy
09:23:08 [PhilA2]
... data must be published on Praised by Andrew Stott but he also noted that it's not being used enough
09:23:29 [PhilA2]
... features include requests for data
09:24:06 [PhilA2]
Reference point for those unfamiliar with Andrew Stott, see bottom of page at's-who
09:24:31 [PhilA2]
slide 9 (I think)
09:24:53 [Zakim]
09:25:23 [PhilA2]
Keitha_: emphasises use of CSV as open format
09:25:38 [tomasz]
09:25:44 [Zakim]
09:26:21 [PhilA2]
Keitha: Highlights some users of NZ data, such as Zoodle
09:26:29 [PhilA2]
... watch my street is a competitor
09:27:09 [PhilA2]
... koordinates hosts a lot of topographical info. used a lot by government itself (scribe I think I caught that right)
09:27:12 [PhilA2]
scribe: PhilA2
09:27:17 [PhilA2]
scribeNick: PhilA2
09:27:58 [PhilA2]
Keitha: Good examples on unintended uses of the data
09:28:24 [PhilA2]
slide 11 shows more examples of use of the data
09:28:54 [PhilA2]
slide 14 shows uses of the data for transparency
09:29:36 [PhilA2]
slide 15 - should gov be producing Apps or should third parties do that?
09:30:04 [PhilA2]
schools have found creating Apps a useful way to get info to people
09:30:36 [PhilA2]
... also holiday makers. Lots of Apps for tide tables, tourist-related Apps etc. Often collaborations between gov departments and local groups
09:30:58 [PhilA2]
slide 16 - talking about sustaining the work
09:32:46 [PhilA2]
Keitha_: Working on strategy for 2017. AN update of current eGov strategies. Managing data as a strategic asset is an important part of that
09:33:44 [PhilA2]
PhilA2: What is reasonably priced?
09:33:47 [GwynSutherlin]
I thought that was a great slide
09:34:03 [PhilA2]
Keitha: We'd like it to be free, but we're not able to go as far as free. It's the cost of dissemination
09:35:30 [PhilA2]
PhilA2: Can you measure the economic benefit oft he data? and can that show that the revenue more than covers the cost of publication?
09:35:58 [PhilA2]
Keitha: Looked at Uk and Aus. The normal cost-benefit analysis won't work. Advised to focus on higher level economic impacts
09:36:03 [laurenceNZ]
I think it is more the economic benefit rather than revenue
09:36:08 [PhilA2]
... we're now looking at prepaing case studies
09:36:10 [SamG]
sorry just exploring
09:36:49 [PhilA2]
Keitha_: Looking ahead to analysis in 3 years' time to whether we have met the target for the system as a whole
09:37:06 [PhilA2]
tomasz: Is there some systematic way to measure impact on gov and priv sector?
09:37:23 [PhilA2]
Keitha: Not at the moment. We're relying on what departmetns are telling us
09:38:07 [PhilA2]
Keitha: Had an early benchmark report but it was too early to give us an answer on that. But I'm happy to report back in 6 months' time
09:38:22 [PhilA2]
Keitha: Expecting to get a report to cabinet in that period
09:38:27 [SamG]
how is this OIA?
09:38:34 [PhilA2]
tomasz: Thanks Keitha for the presentation
09:38:43 [PhilA2]
Topic: From 0 to 5 Cities - Open Data in Taiwan (TH Schee)
09:38:45 [GwynSutherlin]
thanks Keitha, very interesting
09:38:54 [PhilA2]
Slides are at
09:39:54 [laurenceNZ]
There was an EU case study that showed a 1.7%impact on GDP from open data
09:40:01 [laurenceNZ]
Links to work from the EU that gives some teeth to the economic value argument. The headline is "direct and indirect economic benefits for the economy are of the order of 1.7% of GDP" .. which should be a compelling story. LINKS: the research the powerpoint Also some work, led by Deloitte, into the pricing of PSI: the powerpoint the summary report (2MB) full repo[CUT]
09:40:02 [PhilA2]
thschee: We have a lot of data published on the RoC site
09:41:50 [PhilA2]
thschee: Translating a lot of info from OKFN and elsewhere. Open Data movement growing in Taiwan
09:42:15 [PhilA2]
... new open data legislation being drafted
09:42:33 [PhilA2]
... regulation due to take effect in a matter of months
09:43:37 [PhilA2]
... Open Data portal opened last year
09:43:45 [PhilA2]
... you can find a lot of cultural data there
09:44:39 [PhilA2]
PhilA2: Notes that Wang Mei-Hsueh, Academia Sinica Research Center for Information Technology Innovation, Taiwan took part in last year's W3C workshop on this (Deirdre and GwynSutherlin were there ;-)
09:45:27 [PhilA2]
thschee: Portals like often launched in a bit of a rush - c'est la viw
09:45:33 [PhilA2]
09:46:40 [PhilA2]
thschee: We have 3 portals but licensing not consistent, not all free and so on so developers are having a hard time getting the data.
09:46:57 [PhilA2]
... using Microsoft's OGDI platform
09:47:35 [PhilA2]
PhilA2: Reference for Microsoft's OGDI
09:48:08 [PhilA2]
thschee: Monitoring usage of Apps so we can see the demand - which is high
09:48:21 [PhilA2]
... gov promoting Apps
09:48:52 [PhilA2]
... if you are creating Apps using the Taiwan open data - you;re doing better than the gov wehich is finding it a little hard
09:49:23 [PhilA2]
slide 6
09:49:38 [PhilA2]
thschee: Getting a lot of stakeholders together
09:50:05 [PhilA2]
... Creative Commons Taiwan
09:50:18 [PhilA2]
... Open Street Map Taiwan etc.
09:50:57 [PhilA2]
... some people doing better job of publishing gov data by scraping Web sites than gov itself doing by publishing the data
09:51:54 [PhilA2]
... common belief that your data will be used by others to do you harm
09:52:55 [PhilA2]
slide 7 - focus on current strategy
09:54:00 [PhilA2]
slide 8 - shows relationships. Taiwan has hackathons every month
09:54:39 [PhilA2]
... ecosystem is cooperative effort in that it's gov and private sector
09:56:18 [PhilA2]
PhilA2: Can you expand on the issue of people being reluctant to publish their data through fear
09:56:46 [PhilA2]
thschee: We're working to expose the work and get it on the agenda of politicians through the media
09:57:00 [PhilA2]
... then you have to deliver solutions that may be open source-based
09:57:26 [PhilA2]
... with launch of open data portals, lots of companies behind gov tenders, some thought it would be a good cash cow...
09:57:54 [PhilA2]
... needs high level support - work top down
10:00:01 [PhilA2]
PhilA2: So with talk about open source and companies circling round looking for contacts - why go for Microsoft rather than, for e.g. CKAN?
10:00:18 [BRAND]
I have found that some commercial products are more mature for data federation than CKAN
10:00:18 [PhilA2]
... confidence, speed, and CKAN not good witch Chinese characters
10:01:07 [PhilA2]
thschee: gov wanted a quick solution that works out of the box
10:01:34 [PhilA2]
tomasz: On your last slide - do you have a concept of maturity in the use of open gov data?
10:01:44 [PhilA2]
... how mature is the use of OGD?
10:02:12 [PhilA2]
thschee: The tech start ups are pretty mature. They know about the limitations, esp. of licnces etc.
10:02:30 [PhilA2]
... making good profits with small teams of developers
10:02:52 [PhilA2]
Topic: Research on US Federal Government Handling of Data (Brand Niemann)
10:03:02 [PhilA2]
10:03:53 [PhilA2]
BRAND: introduces himself and his work
10:04:39 [PhilA2]
... been asked to help the Data Transparency Coalition (see recent talk by Hudson Hollister)
10:04:44 [PhilA2]
... working with big dataand analytics
10:04:48 [PhilA2]
.. helping open data for Japan
10:04:57 [PhilA2]
... getting the right people, etc. in place
10:05:20 [PhilA2]
... also working on strategy for big data more than open data
10:05:29 [PhilA2]
... now in era of data scientist
10:06:10 [PhilA2]
Slide 2
10:06:50 [PhilA2]
Been asked to look at current landscape of open data round the world.
10:07:21 [PhilA2]
Look at Mosaic effect where multiple sources of data together reveal personal or otehr data that might be detrimental to national security
10:07:51 [PhilA2]
slide 3 shows current big picture
10:08:47 [PhilA2]
slide 4 offers a big solution
10:10:18 [PhilA2]
BRAND: People I speak to are all supportive but they're looking for ROI. We need something soon or we'll move on to something else
10:12:24 [PhilA2]
... talks about cell level secutiry
10:12:48 [laurenceNZ]
Laurence is leaving the call
10:12:55 [Zakim]
10:13:36 [PhilA2]
BRAND: We already have a good deal of knowledge about open government data. Refers to recent NIST conference on cloud copmputing
10:14:40 [PhilA2]
... someone from intelligence community looking at potential mosaic effect, someone with good background in data analytics
10:16:00 [PhilA2]
slide 7. NIEM admits not had as much success with working with private sector as they'd like. Oracle prob had more success at implementing NIEM than NIEM itself
10:16:35 [PhilA2]
slide 8 - METI - biggest ministry in Japan
10:17:15 [PhilA2]
BRAND: Govs need chief data officers, they need teams of data scientists and statisticians...
10:17:48 [PhilA2]
... they need a return on investment. I've been saying they should work with the right people/skills
10:18:38 [PhilA2]
... I've developed a 5 step recipe (slide 10)
10:19:49 [PhilA2]
... Spotfire dashboard seems more stable and powerful than, for example, CKAN
10:20:48 [PhilA2]
5 steps are independent of the tools (I've just shown the ones I use)
10:21:17 [PhilA2]
slide 11 maps this to TimBLs 5 stars data
10:22:01 [PhilA2]
slide 12 shows the Japanese yearbook in the dashboard. Takes a while to load but very powerful
10:22:31 [PhilA2]
... individual data sets are small but combined together they form big data
10:22:46 [PhilA2]
... I was interested in the recent earthquake and its effects
10:23:42 [PhilA2]
slide 14 - some of the data in CKAN portal is not to well sourced as others
10:23:45 [HadleyBeeman]
HadleyBeeman has joined #egov
10:24:05 [PhilA2]
Tood Park's deputy reckons that city data is prob more valuable than the national stuff
10:24:38 [PhilA2]
10:24:53 [Zakim]
10:24:54 [PhilA2]
BRAND: Conclusion (slide 16)
10:26:56 [PhilA2]
Keitha: What is the definition of statistics. In NZ we're moving in the open data world - the stuff they have is mostly survey results cf. administrative data - stuff that doesn't come from surveys
10:27:47 [PhilA2]
BRAND: We had a recent conference with the Association of Public Data users. The people from that stat community (framework data) all realisedd that there's this new source of data from social media
10:28:02 [PhilA2]
... it's scary as it's not collected methodically, But they recoignise it's improtant
10:28:16 [PhilA2]
... meanwhile the social media people are becoming aware of the otehr community
10:28:27 [PhilA2]
... we need to brign the two together of course. It's exciting to work with both
10:29:03 [PhilA2]
... the proceedings of that are interesting. People from statistical agencies looking at how social media data can be brought in in such a way that the stat agencies can use
10:29:30 [PhilA2]
Todd Park has said that data scientists need to come to our hackathons and expalin what this data means
10:29:42 [PhilA2]
q+ to talk about workshop on this
10:30:00 [PhilA2]
Keitha: Let's keep talking. The otehr area for us is anonymisation of personal data
10:30:20 [SamG]
how can you validate social media data?
10:30:47 [PhilA2]
... you talked about security etc. I'd like to continue talking about that with you. Tends to be about anonymisation of survey datam rather than admin data
10:31:40 [PhilA2]
BRAND: People who work on the data are sworn to lie - i.e. not reveal what they've seen - and then they aggregate up until it becomes anonymous
10:33:51 [BRAND]
10:33:53 [PhilA2]
rrsagent, draft minutes
10:33:53 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate PhilA2
10:34:12 [PhilA2]
tomasz: Closes the meeting
10:34:42 [HadleyBeeman]
Thanks, tomasz!
10:34:45 [Zakim]
10:34:46 [GwynSutherlin]
10:34:50 [Zakim]
10:34:52 [Zakim]
10:34:54 [Zakim]
10:34:57 [Zakim]
10:35:01 [Zakim]
10:35:03 [PhilA2]
tomasz: Next meeting topic is open to suggestion. We've had 5 on this topic
10:35:05 [Zakim]
10:35:08 [Zakim]
10:35:09 [Zakim]
T&S_EGOV(Eurasian)4:00AM has ended
10:35:09 [Zakim]
Attendees were +88697069aaaa, +8532871aabb, +8532871aacc, +1.703.281.aadd, PhilA2, thschee, +3539149aaee, Brand, florian, Deirdre, Keitha, [IPcaller], HadleyBeeman
10:35:16 [PhilA2]
rrsagent, generate minutes
10:35:16 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate PhilA2
10:38:15 [SamG]
11:06:45 [PhilA2]
PhilA2 has left #egov
11:19:11 [thschee]
thschee has joined #egov