13:18:43 RRSAgent has joined #eo 13:18:43 logging to http://www.w3.org/2013/01/18-eo-irc 13:18:45 RRSAgent, make logs world 13:18:45 Zakim has joined #eo 13:18:47 Zakim, this will be 3694 13:18:47 ok, trackbot; I see WAI_EOWG()8:30AM scheduled to start in 12 minutes 13:18:48 Meeting: Education and Outreach Working Group Teleconference 13:18:48 Date: 18 January 2013 13:18:49 agenda? 13:24:28 Andrew has joined #eo 13:27:35 WAI_EOWG()8:30AM has now started 13:27:42 +AnnaBelle 13:28:09 AnnaBelle has joined #eo 13:29:15 +Shawn 13:30:10 Sharron has joined #eo 13:30:28 trackbot, start meeting 13:30:30 RRSAgent, make logs world 13:30:32 Zakim, this will be 3694 13:30:32 ok, trackbot; I see WAI_EOWG()8:30AM scheduled to start now 13:30:33 Meeting: Education and Outreach Working Group Teleconference 13:30:33 Date: 18 January 2013 13:30:40 Chair: Shawn 13:30:45 Scribe: Sharron 13:30:48 zakim, who is on the phone? 13:30:48 I notice WAI_EOWG()8:30AM has restarted 13:30:49 On the phone I see AnnaBelle, Shawn 13:31:07 Suzette2 has joined #eo 13:32:03 CSUn session schedule: http://www.csun.edu/cod/conference/2013/sessions/index.php/public/conf_sessions 13:32:06 zakim, call Bim-617 13:32:06 ok, Bim; the call is being made 13:32:08 +Bim 13:32:37 +[IPcaller] 13:32:43 hbj has joined #eo 13:33:59 +Sharron 13:34:11 zakim, who is on the phone? 13:34:11 On the phone I see AnnaBelle, Shawn, Bim, [IPcaller], Sharron 13:34:48 Regrets: zakim, [IPcaller] is Suzette 13:35:06 zakim, mute me 13:35:06 Bim should now be muted 13:35:08 +hbj 13:36:22 zakim, [IPcaller] is Suzette 13:36:22 +Suzette; got it 13:36:29 Regrets: Emmanuelle, Vicki, Wayne, Denis, Shadi 13:37:07 + +61.4.473.8.aaaa 13:37:16 zakim, aaaa is Andrew 13:37:16 +Andrew; got it 13:37:53 sylvie has joined #eo 13:39:47 + +44.123.961.aabb 13:40:19 LiamM has joined #eo 13:40:23 zakim, aabb is Sylvie 13:40:23 +Sylvie; got it 13:40:34 -Sylvie 13:40:39 ack me 13:40:59 zakim, mute me 13:40:59 Bim should now be muted 13:41:12 +Sylvie 13:41:33 zakim, Sylvie is LiamM 13:41:34 +LiamM; got it 13:41:41 zakim, who is on the phone? 13:41:41 On the phone I see AnnaBelle, Shawn, Bim (muted), Suzette, Sharron, hbj, Andrew, LiamM 13:41:45 zakim, mute me 13:41:45 LiamM should now be muted 13:41:54 zakim, unmute me 13:41:54 LiamM should no longer be muted 13:43:14 ack me 13:43:51 +Sylvie 13:44:28 zakim, mute me 13:44:30 Bim should now be muted 13:45:01 zakim, mute me 13:45:01 hbj should now be muted 13:45:01 zakim, mute me 13:45:03 LiamM should now be muted 13:45:07 Topic: Indie UI Overview 13:45:12 http://www.w3.org/WAI/intro/indieui.php 13:45:14 zakim, mute me 13:45:14 Sylvie should now be muted 13:46:06 Shawn: We briefly looked at this in early draft. Planning to do an announceof the first working draft soon, let's get first overview comments.ment of the first 13:46:25 ...length, tone, any first impressions? 13:46:35 Suzette: What is its history? 13:47:17 Shawn: It's brand new, the Working Group started on it last year. The concept of what it is doing is meant to be very easy to understand despite its technical nature. 13:47:21 Indie UI w/gp launched in May 2012 13:47:33 ...let's tak a look at the Introduction. Does it communicate what it is? 13:47:48 zakim, unmute me 13:47:48 LiamM should no longer be muted 13:48:02 ...any suggestions for making it clearer. 13:48:23 Liam: Don't know much about the topic. The intro makes me want to read more, peaks interest. 13:48:49 ...seems to do what you want an intro to do. 13:48:50 zakim, mute me 13:48:50 LiamM should now be muted 13:49:43 Andrew: Is it as much "a way for..." as a guide to? 13:50:25 or even a standardised way that the interactions should work 13:50:35 zakim, unmute me 13:50:35 hbj should no longer be muted 13:50:51 q+ 13:50:56 Shawn: One possible approach might be to address that is to flip the second and third paragraphs. 13:51:22 Suzette: From what Andrew said, it seems like the second paragraph more specifically says what it is. 13:51:26 " Indie UI will define a way for those different interactions to be translated into a simple event - scroll down." from para 2 13:52:18 Helle: I am wondering if the Indie UI going to make and define the events or will they define what is necessary for others to do. 13:53:02 Shawn: My understanding is that there will be two layers: the events layer and the user context layer. 13:53:56 ...if the device can detect whether what the user is doing, it will allow the device to respond to that. 13:54:18 s/ detect whether what/ detect what 13:54:27 q+ 13:54:33 Helle: This is for all devices, not just assitive technology 13:54:37 q- 13:54:55 and for all users, not just PWD 13:55:09 Shawn: Yes that is an excellent point. We look at it from our perspective but it is meant to help anyne as we use different devices to access the web. 13:55:37 q+ to ask 'is it ready yet (no)' info is missing 13:55:39 ...does that point come through sufficiently? 13:55:42 zakim, unmute me 13:55:42 LiamM should no longer be muted 13:56:41 Helle: Becasue our focus is so much on assistive technology, that is our framework. So the fact that "different devices" can cover a huge number of devices, perhaps should be mentioned. 13:57:08 Liam: But it is a good thing to give assistive technology a specific nod. So many give mobile and tablets a nod as well. 13:57:17 s/many/maybe 13:57:24 zakim, mute me 13:57:24 LiamM should now be muted 13:57:44 http://www.w3.org/WAI/EO/Drafts/indieui-draft.php 13:57:48 Shawn: Would it be useful or fun to have illustrations of the different modes of access? 13:58:55 zakim, unmute me 13:58:55 LiamM should no longer be muted 13:59:29 Helle: I did not really understand these illustrations. Perhaps if they were integrated into the text it would be clearer. 14:01:03 Andrew: I initally found the illustrations distracting. If it was a diagram and could sit next to the text and be more illustrative of the concpet. 14:01:23 ...going along with the idea of having a diagram rather than a photograph. 14:01:44 Shawn: Other ideas about diagrams? 14:01:49 ack me 14:01:58 zakim, mute me 14:01:58 hbj should now be muted 14:02:04 AnnaBelle: I love diagrams but are there accessibility consideratins? 14:02:25 s/the text/the text for the example in the Indie UI: Events section 14:02:55 Bim: Yes when it is a new concept, it can be very useful for those who can see it and if it simply illustrates the concepts within the text, the alternatives are not difficult. 14:02:56 zakim, mute me 14:02:56 LiamM should now be muted 14:03:14 Shawn: Anyone know an illustrator who might volunteer? 14:03:27 ack me 14:03:45 ack me 14:03:53 AnnaBelle: I could take a go at it. 14:03:55 zakim, mute me 14:03:55 Bim should now be muted 14:04:03 zakim, unmute me 14:04:03 LiamM should no longer be muted 14:04:04 ack l 14:04:05 LiamM, you wanted to ask 'is it ready yet (no)' info is missing 14:04:05 zakim, mute me 14:04:07 ack me 14:04:07 hbj should now be muted 14:04:35 Liam: The only thing missing from the intro is the sense of whether this is ready now? The answer ios no and should be made clear. 14:04:43 action: Shawn to IndieUI Overview - add status of the docs 14:04:43 Created ACTION-260 - IndieUI Overview - add status of the docs [on Shawn Henry - due 2013-01-25]. 14:04:46 ...that it is more of a heads up that it is coming. 14:04:52 zakim, mute me 14:04:52 LiamM should now be muted 14:05:33 Shawn: OK Annabelle what would be your time frame/availability for mocking up the diagram? 14:06:04 Annabelle: Could have soemthing by 1/24 or 1/25 - does that work? 14:06:21 s/soemthing/something 14:07:00 ...or the end of the day 1/23. 14:07:06 Shawn: Great, thaks! 14:07:15 zakim, unmute me 14:07:15 LiamM should no longer be muted 14:07:23 s/thaks!/thanks! 14:08:04 zakim, mute me 14:08:04 LiamM should now be muted 14:08:46 action: Shawn to IndieUI Overview - add real address instead of "An email address for sending comments is included in the "Status of this Document" sections." 14:08:46 Created ACTION-261 - IndieUI Overview - add real address instead of "An email address for sending comments is included in the "Status of this Document" sections." [on Shawn Henry - due 2013-01-25]. 14:09:25 Shawn: Watch for announcement next week. It is pretty cool new work and has broad appeal. We are hoping people will get excited about it. 14:09:35 Topic: Easy Checks 14:09:49 title brainstorming: An email address for sending comments is included in the "Status of this Document" sections. 14:09:58 s/title brainstorming: An email address for sending comments is included in the "Status of this Document" sections./ / 14:10:11 title brainstorming: http://www.w3.org/WAI/EO/wiki/Eval_Analysis#Title_ideas 14:10:31 zakim, unmute me 14:10:31 LiamM should no longer be muted 14:11:44 I still like it very much 14:12:04 I still like it 14:12:12 Shawn: We did brainstorming on title last week, are open to otehr ideas. Please add to the wiki. 14:13:11 ...next I took a pass at edits to two of the sections. They are a bit different from the template, so let's discuss 14:13:23 Check image text alternatives 14:14:25 Shawn: Reminder that we are still in very draft form so this is not polished, still experimenting with format etc so feel free to be as creative with changes as needed. 14:14:43 ...look at this one and discuss what works, doesn't work, etc 14:15:47 zakim, mute me 14:15:47 LiamM should now be muted 14:16:21 Liam: Looks good. 14:16:50 q+ 14:17:03 ack me 14:17:05 Shawn: Reminder that we want to provide some options for people who don't see the page to be able to do some checks. So we start with validation that will indicate if alt text is there at all. 14:18:17 Bim: I think that can be complex though, for blind testers it will depend on what screen reader you have. 14:18:37 Shawn: So your method would be what? 14:18:46 Bim: I would use the validator. 14:18:57 Bim: Yes 14:19:20 ..and would not require screen reader specific instructions. 14:20:31 ack s 14:20:33 ...some screen readers will ignore images with no alt text unless there is a link. 14:20:39 zakim, mute me 14:20:39 Bim should now be muted 14:21:30 FF dev tools +1 14:21:50 Suzette: I think using the automatic tool is a good start to help them find whether it works. But I would not use WAVE for this. I prefer the Web Developer Toolbar for Firefox. 14:21:55 zakim, unmute me 14:21:55 LiamM should no longer be muted 14:22:03 ack me 14:22:06 Sharron: I agree, the WAVE tool is so visually cluttered. 14:22:09 +1 or the IE Web Accessibility toolbar 14:22:11 zakim, unmute me 14:22:11 Sylvie should no longer be muted 14:22:32 Liam: I might use different methods myself and recommend to other developers. 14:23:01 Shawn: But what if you have a newbie, an advocate who is not a developer? 14:23:16 Liam: The Web Developer Toolbar, actually. 14:23:16 q+ 14:23:21 zakim, mute me 14:23:21 Sylvie should now be muted 14:23:45 zakim, mute me 14:23:45 LiamM should now be muted 14:24:20 Shawn: What we were trying to do was to provide a level of checks that anyone could do without downloading additional software. Then we were planning another level if you were able, interested in downloading tools. 14:24:25 in FF - right click on image and select 'view image info' 14:24:45 ...the other thing is the flow of how we present this information, what will be the flow. 14:25:04 I would like to note that even if the developer toolbar from Firefox contains the word "developer", it is easy to use for disabling images, or showing heading and make the issue understandable for non technical people who want to check a page. 14:25:20 +1 what Sylvie said 14:25:31 zakim, unmute me 14:25:31 Sylvie should no longer be muted 14:26:21 ditto with http://paciellogroup.com/resources/wat/ie 14:26:28 Sylvie: I agree with Liam. The checks are easily performed and give you such clear results, you do not need to be technical to understand. 14:26:30 As a developer my first choice is view source 14:27:10 +q 14:27:24 Tau? 14:27:34 Suzette: What about the Spanish accessibility testing page? 14:27:43 ...I will look for it. 14:27:53 ack me 14:28:54 q+ 14:29:09 zakim, mute me 14:29:09 Sylvie should now be muted 14:29:25 Bim: If you are looking for something very simple, the Functional Accessibility Evaluator that can be loaded into the browser 14:29:42 Shawn: Is there a stand-alone version? 14:29:44 http://fae.cita.uiuc.edu/ 14:29:51 Andrew: Yes there is 14:30:46 zakim, mute me 14:30:46 LiamM was already muted, LiamM 14:31:11 zakim, mute me 14:31:11 Bim should now be muted 14:31:34 Helle: I was thinking about a problem we have here. We have strict rules about what I can download and no adminstrator rights. 14:31:39 q+ to suggest tools list at end of doc for (slightly) more advanced users 14:32:11 ...so I must have tools that are web based or do not require admin rights. I could not, for example use the Toolbars that must be downloaded. 14:32:37 ...I could not recommend anything that included the need to download. 14:33:11 ack anna 14:33:20 ack and 14:33:20 Andrew, you wanted to suggest tools list at end of doc for (slightly) more advanced users 14:33:22 Shawn: That's why we wanted to make two levels of checks - the first with no need to download, the second where that IS a possibility. 14:33:33 zakim, mute me 14:33:33 hbj should now be muted 14:34:03 Andrew: Because so many of the tools are so easy to use if youa re able to download, I wonder if it is useful to have a list of free tools that we think would be useful. 14:35:03 q+ 14:35:21 ack me 14:35:34 Shawn: Clearly there is consensus that we want to put additional tool information somewhere we have just not yet sorted through how to do that. 14:35:56 q+ 14:35:59 Helle: Would it be possible to see if you can use without adminstrator rights? 14:36:11 Shawn: I'll take an action 14:36:18 zakim, unmute me 14:36:18 Sylvie should no longer be muted 14:37:02 ACTION: Shawn add to WAVE instructions that this is only if you can't download a tool. then add instructions for FF Developer toolbar separately 14:37:02 Created ACTION-262 - add to WAVE instructions that this is only if you can't download a tool. then add instructions for FF Developer toolbar separately [on Shawn Henry - due 2013-01-25]. 14:38:06 Sylvie: We are preparing a training for next week. They run a virtual machine and the question is if we have all the tools we need. The developer toolbar from Firefox is one that you can install without admin rights. 14:38:25 ack me 14:38:47 Shawn: Thanks for that, any other comments on this alt text sections? 14:39:14 Sylvie: The advice so far is good but we should also add the information that human judgment is needed about quality fo alt text. 14:39:21 zakim, mute me 14:39:21 hbj should now be muted 14:40:40 Sylvie: It would be helpful to not make this only reliant on blind people's needs but be useful to go beyond one disability. Needed by those with voice input and machine searches. 14:41:11 Shawn: There is a challenge between giving a more complete explanation and our desie to keep these quick and short. 14:41:21 s/desie/desire 14:41:35 ...should we look for a place to point to externally? 14:41:59 Sylvie: I think you can make it short and add at least one other use case. 14:43:27 Bim: People who are keyboard only users and may use Search 14:43:52 zakim, mute me 14:43:52 Sylvie should now be muted 14:44:32 ...browser search won't find image based on alt text. 14:45:15 q+ 14:45:20 ack s 14:45:37 q+ to talk about context 14:45:57 q+ to ask about headings 'Quick Checks' and 'A Deeper Look' 14:46:04 Suzette: Aren't there optiona on all browsers to say you don't want to download images and then see the alt text? 14:47:23 Shawn: If images have a size defined, you get a box of that size with alt text. Other problems can occur, inlcuding page layout changes and hidden alt text. It can be difficult to use effectively. 14:47:44 zakim, mute me 14:47:44 Bim should now be muted 14:48:05 Suzette: Yes, WAVE does seem to address a lot of those user needs. 14:48:25 ...and FANGS 14:48:47 Sharron: Yes I love FANGS too but think it may not have been updated recently. 14:49:55 Shawn: If we go with the approach - the 5 top items don't use tools and the rest may include tools - we may want to give the instructions for WAVE and a kind of disclaimer, that could work. 14:50:22 q+ 14:50:28 ...may not have it two places, but maybe instead sections within each section for if you can download tools and a section if you cannot. 14:50:42 ack me 14:50:42 Andrew, you wanted to talk about context 14:50:42 ack a 14:51:26 Andrew: Context of an image needs to be taken into account. Not sure how that gets drawn out in relation to what is there, but wanted to put it out for consideration. 14:51:31 ACTION: Shawn to tips add context -- e.g., dog breed or just decorative 14:51:31 Created ACTION-263 - to tips add context -- e.g., dog breed or just decorative [on Shawn Henry - due 2013-01-25]. 14:51:37 ack l 14:51:38 LiamM, you wanted to ask about headings 'Quick Checks' and 'A Deeper Look' 14:51:38 zakim, unmute me 14:51:39 LiamM was not muted, LiamM 14:51:50 ack me 14:51:51 ack h 14:52:45 Helle: When we talk about using WAVE as a tool that does not need downloading, maybe help them learn to View Source. It is easy to guide them through. Even without knowing code, they could find it. 14:52:58 Liam: Not as easy with more scripting in the code 14:53:12 Andrew: It may be frightening, intimidating. 14:53:37 Helle: I agree that WAVE can sometimes be overwhelming and not clear. 14:53:39 zakim, unack me 14:53:39 I don't understand 'unack me', LiamM 14:54:02 Andrew: Previous iteration allowed you to toggle items to be checked on and off. 14:54:21 zakim, mute me 14:54:21 hbj should now be muted 14:55:01 Liam: High level headings are Quick Checks and A Deeper Look. If the title is Quick Checks, that should be changed. 14:55:05 zakim, mute me 14:55:05 LiamM should now be muted 14:55:25 Shawn: Yes since we have recently renamed the overall document, we will revisit. 14:55:36 ...will also take another edit pass. 14:55:56 Subtopic: Check Headings and Lists 14:56:05 Check headings and lists Check headings and lists 14:56:18 s/Check headings and lists Check headings and lists/ / 14:56:27 Shawn: Many of your previous comments apply to this section. Any additional comments? 14:56:29 Check headings and lists http://www.w3.org/WAI/EO/wiki/Web_Accessibility_Preliminary_Evaluation#Check_headings_and_lists 14:56:29 zakim, unmute me 14:56:29 LiamM should no longer be muted 14:56:34 zakim, unmute me 14:56:34 hbj should no longer be muted 14:56:46 zakim, mute me 14:56:46 LiamM should now be muted 14:56:50 Liam: Nothing about ordering of headings. 14:57:16 zakim, unmute me 14:57:16 LiamM should no longer be muted 14:57:29 Shawn: One of our discussion topics was that we would try to steer away from contentious issues. There is contention about the heading levels. 14:57:45 q+ 14:57:55 Liam: There is either meaning to level 1,2,3 etc or there is not. 14:58:18 Shawn: So we need to say something about that perhaps. 14:58:52 Andrew: Maybe provide a bit of leeway - something like headings are preferably structured this way. 14:59:02 ack h 14:59:19 Heading levels should be a meaningful hierarchy. 14:59:34 Helle: Can we mention the need to not use lists when headings are more appropriate? 14:59:41 Liam: It is contextual. 15:00:12 Helle: But we see it often and may need to make the point that lists should be used for grouping related items. 15:00:16 zakim, mute me 15:00:16 LiamM should now be muted 15:00:53 zakim, unmute me 15:00:53 LiamM should no longer be muted 15:00:59 Shawn: It was called "Check Headings and other Semantic Structure" thought that was intimidating. Are there other things to add? 15:01:28 zakim, mute me 15:01:28 LiamM should now be muted 15:01:30 AnnaBelle: I found the addition of lists confusing. For Easy Checks, maybe just headings? 15:01:34 Liam: Yes agreed 15:01:38 Helle: agreed 15:01:41 +1 to headings only 15:01:50 Liam was agreeing with AnnaBelle 15:01:59 +1 headings 15:02:01 zakim, unmute me 15:02:01 LiamM should no longer be muted 15:02:11 Shawn: So if we separate out Headings, what other semantic mark-up might be useful? 15:02:17 zakim, mute me 15:02:17 LiamM should now be muted 15:02:40 Liam: Meaningful structure but it might be too large a topic for a Quick Check. 15:02:41 lists are navigation? 15:02:49 zakim, unmute me 15:02:49 LiamM should no longer be muted 15:02:56 Shawn: Include lists a s aseparate item? 15:03:12 zakim, mute me 15:03:13 LiamM should now be muted 15:03:20 Helle: what about labels? 15:03:30 Liam: Not sure that inaccurate list structure is as important as labels. 15:03:36 zakim, unmute me 15:03:36 LiamM should no longer be muted 15:03:44 q+ to mention confusing vs. unusable as criteria 15:03:44 Shawn: So leave lists entirely out of Quick Checks? 15:04:14 ack a 15:04:14 Andrew, you wanted to mention confusing vs. unusable as criteria 15:04:21 Suzette: Links are often held within lists and are very important so seems like it should be referenced in some form or another. 15:04:22 q+ 15:04:32 ack h 15:04:32 ack me 15:04:48 zakim, unmute me 15:04:48 LiamM was not muted, LiamM 15:04:48 Andrew: A criteria for inlcusion should be whether people are likely to be confused by it. 15:05:17 Helle: Links might be better addressed on their own rather than in relation to lists. 15:05:28 ..it may not be a big accessibility problem. 15:05:28 zakim, mute me 15:05:28 LiamM should now be muted 15:05:43 s/ confused by it/ confused by it or stopped from doing something 15:06:02 zakim, mute me 15:06:02 hbj should now be muted 15:06:39 Bim: I am a bit torn becasue personally I use lists a lot in navigation. But the problems introduced by misuse of list structure, like definition lists, ordered vs unordered lists, etc are less critical than headings. 15:06:48 +1 15:07:34 +1 15:07:54 Shawn: If you have navigation that is not marked up as a list, how much of an issue is that? 15:07:58 +1 15:10:39 Bim: Becasue I can pull up a list of links in JAWS it is less of an issue. But if it is placed within a list, you can bypass the entire list if wanted. So while lists are preferable they do not create impentrable barriers when omitted or done badly. 15:11:22 Suzette: It will be useful to make a reference to lists perhaps within the links section of the Quick Checks. 15:11:48 Bim - that is what I meant by inconvenient or confusing vs stopping a person using a page 15:12:12 Once of the things in this section is the tutorial of how to use BAD. I am assuming this will be on a toggle about how to use BAD to accomplish this check. 15:12:13 zakim, mute me 15:12:13 Bim should now be muted 15:12:49 Subtopic: Introduction 15:12:57 Introduction http://www.w3.org/WAI/EO/wiki/Web_Accessibility_Preliminary_Evaluation#Introduction 15:14:08 zakim, unmute me 15:14:08