IRC log of eo on 2013-01-18

Timestamps are in UTC.

13:18:43 [RRSAgent]
RRSAgent has joined #eo
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logging to http://www.w3.org/2013/01/18-eo-irc
13:18:45 [trackbot]
RRSAgent, make logs world
13:18:45 [Zakim]
Zakim has joined #eo
13:18:47 [trackbot]
Zakim, this will be 3694
13:18:47 [Zakim]
ok, trackbot; I see WAI_EOWG()8:30AM scheduled to start in 12 minutes
13:18:48 [trackbot]
Meeting: Education and Outreach Working Group Teleconference
13:18:48 [trackbot]
Date: 18 January 2013
13:18:49 [shawn]
agenda?
13:24:28 [Andrew]
Andrew has joined #eo
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WAI_EOWG()8:30AM has now started
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+AnnaBelle
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AnnaBelle has joined #eo
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+Shawn
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trackbot, start meeting
13:30:30 [trackbot]
RRSAgent, make logs world
13:30:32 [trackbot]
Zakim, this will be 3694
13:30:32 [Zakim]
ok, trackbot; I see WAI_EOWG()8:30AM scheduled to start now
13:30:33 [trackbot]
Meeting: Education and Outreach Working Group Teleconference
13:30:33 [trackbot]
Date: 18 January 2013
13:30:40 [Sharron]
Chair: Shawn
13:30:45 [Sharron]
Scribe: Sharron
13:30:48 [shawn]
zakim, who is on the phone?
13:30:48 [Zakim]
I notice WAI_EOWG()8:30AM has restarted
13:30:49 [Zakim]
On the phone I see AnnaBelle, Shawn
13:31:07 [Suzette2]
Suzette2 has joined #eo
13:32:03 [shawn]
CSUn session schedule: http://www.csun.edu/cod/conference/2013/sessions/index.php/public/conf_sessions
13:32:06 [Bim]
zakim, call Bim-617
13:32:06 [Zakim]
ok, Bim; the call is being made
13:32:08 [Zakim]
+Bim
13:32:37 [Zakim]
+[IPcaller]
13:32:43 [hbj]
hbj has joined #eo
13:33:59 [Zakim]
+Sharron
13:34:11 [shawn]
zakim, who is on the phone?
13:34:11 [Zakim]
On the phone I see AnnaBelle, Shawn, Bim, [IPcaller], Sharron
13:34:48 [Sharron]
Regrets: zakim, [IPcaller] is Suzette
13:35:06 [Bim]
zakim, mute me
13:35:06 [Zakim]
Bim should now be muted
13:35:08 [Zakim]
+hbj
13:36:22 [shawn]
zakim, [IPcaller] is Suzette
13:36:22 [Zakim]
+Suzette; got it
13:36:29 [Sharron]
Regrets: Emmanuelle, Vicki, Wayne, Denis, Shadi
13:37:07 [Zakim]
+ +61.4.473.8.aaaa
13:37:16 [Andrew]
zakim, aaaa is Andrew
13:37:16 [Zakim]
+Andrew; got it
13:37:53 [sylvie]
sylvie has joined #eo
13:39:47 [Zakim]
+ +44.123.961.aabb
13:40:19 [LiamM]
LiamM has joined #eo
13:40:23 [Sharron]
zakim, aabb is Sylvie
13:40:23 [Zakim]
+Sylvie; got it
13:40:34 [Zakim]
-Sylvie
13:40:39 [Bim]
ack me
13:40:59 [Bim]
zakim, mute me
13:40:59 [Zakim]
Bim should now be muted
13:41:12 [Zakim]
+Sylvie
13:41:33 [LiamM]
zakim, Sylvie is LiamM
13:41:34 [Zakim]
+LiamM; got it
13:41:41 [shawn]
zakim, who is on the phone?
13:41:41 [Zakim]
On the phone I see AnnaBelle, Shawn, Bim (muted), Suzette, Sharron, hbj, Andrew, LiamM
13:41:45 [LiamM]
zakim, mute me
13:41:45 [Zakim]
LiamM should now be muted
13:41:54 [LiamM]
zakim, unmute me
13:41:54 [Zakim]
LiamM should no longer be muted
13:43:14 [Bim]
ack me
13:43:51 [Zakim]
+Sylvie
13:44:28 [Bim]
zakim, mute me
13:44:30 [Zakim]
Bim should now be muted
13:45:01 [hbj]
zakim, mute me
13:45:01 [Zakim]
hbj should now be muted
13:45:01 [LiamM]
zakim, mute me
13:45:03 [Zakim]
LiamM should now be muted
13:45:07 [Sharron]
Topic: Indie UI Overview
13:45:12 [shawn]
http://www.w3.org/WAI/intro/indieui.php
13:45:14 [sylvie]
zakim, mute me
13:45:14 [Zakim]
Sylvie should now be muted
13:46:06 [Sharron]
Shawn: We briefly looked at this in early draft. Planning to do an announceof the first working draft soon, let's get first overview comments.ment of the first
13:46:25 [Sharron]
...length, tone, any first impressions?
13:46:35 [Sharron]
Suzette: What is its history?
13:47:17 [Sharron]
Shawn: It's brand new, the Working Group started on it last year. The concept of what it is doing is meant to be very easy to understand despite its technical nature.
13:47:21 [Andrew]
Indie UI w/gp launched in May 2012
13:47:33 [Sharron]
...let's tak a look at the Introduction. Does it communicate what it is?
13:47:48 [LiamM]
zakim, unmute me
13:47:48 [Zakim]
LiamM should no longer be muted
13:48:02 [Sharron]
...any suggestions for making it clearer.
13:48:23 [Sharron]
Liam: Don't know much about the topic. The intro makes me want to read more, peaks interest.
13:48:49 [Sharron]
...seems to do what you want an intro to do.
13:48:50 [LiamM]
zakim, mute me
13:48:50 [Zakim]
LiamM should now be muted
13:49:43 [Sharron]
Andrew: Is it as much "a way for..." as a guide to?
13:50:25 [Andrew]
or even a standardised way that the interactions should work
13:50:35 [hbj]
zakim, unmute me
13:50:35 [Zakim]
hbj should no longer be muted
13:50:51 [hbj]
q+
13:50:56 [Sharron]
Shawn: One possible approach might be to address that is to flip the second and third paragraphs.
13:51:22 [Sharron]
Suzette: From what Andrew said, it seems like the second paragraph more specifically says what it is.
13:51:26 [Andrew]
" Indie UI will define a way for those different interactions to be translated into a simple event - scroll down." from para 2
13:52:18 [Sharron]
Helle: I am wondering if the Indie UI going to make and define the events or will they define what is necessary for others to do.
13:53:02 [Sharron]
Shawn: My understanding is that there will be two layers: the events layer and the user context layer.
13:53:56 [Sharron]
...if the device can detect whether what the user is doing, it will allow the device to respond to that.
13:54:18 [Sharron]
s/ detect whether what/ detect what
13:54:27 [LiamM]
q+
13:54:33 [Sharron]
Helle: This is for all devices, not just assitive technology
13:54:37 [LiamM]
q-
13:54:55 [Andrew]
and for all users, not just PWD
13:55:09 [Sharron]
Shawn: Yes that is an excellent point. We look at it from our perspective but it is meant to help anyne as we use different devices to access the web.
13:55:37 [LiamM]
q+ to ask 'is it ready yet (no)' info is missing
13:55:39 [Sharron]
...does that point come through sufficiently?
13:55:42 [LiamM]
zakim, unmute me
13:55:42 [Zakim]
LiamM should no longer be muted
13:56:41 [Sharron]
Helle: Becasue our focus is so much on assistive technology, that is our framework. So the fact that "different devices" can cover a huge number of devices, perhaps should be mentioned.
13:57:08 [Sharron]
Liam: But it is a good thing to give assistive technology a specific nod. So many give mobile and tablets a nod as well.
13:57:17 [Sharron]
s/many/maybe
13:57:24 [LiamM]
zakim, mute me
13:57:24 [Zakim]
LiamM should now be muted
13:57:44 [shawn]
http://www.w3.org/WAI/EO/Drafts/indieui-draft.php
13:57:48 [Sharron]
Shawn: Would it be useful or fun to have illustrations of the different modes of access?
13:58:55 [LiamM]
zakim, unmute me
13:58:55 [Zakim]
LiamM should no longer be muted
13:59:29 [Sharron]
Helle: I did not really understand these illustrations. Perhaps if they were integrated into the text it would be clearer.
14:01:03 [Sharron]
Andrew: I initally found the illustrations distracting. If it was a diagram and could sit next to the text and be more illustrative of the concpet.
14:01:23 [Sharron]
...going along with the idea of having a diagram rather than a photograph.
14:01:44 [Sharron]
Shawn: Other ideas about diagrams?
14:01:49 [Bim]
ack me
14:01:58 [hbj]
zakim, mute me
14:01:58 [Zakim]
hbj should now be muted
14:02:04 [Sharron]
AnnaBelle: I love diagrams but are there accessibility consideratins?
14:02:25 [Andrew]
s/the text/the text for the example in the Indie UI: Events section
14:02:55 [Sharron]
Bim: Yes when it is a new concept, it can be very useful for those who can see it and if it simply illustrates the concepts within the text, the alternatives are not difficult.
14:02:56 [LiamM]
zakim, mute me
14:02:56 [Zakim]
LiamM should now be muted
14:03:14 [Sharron]
Shawn: Anyone know an illustrator who might volunteer?
14:03:27 [Bim]
ack me
14:03:45 [hbj]
ack me
14:03:53 [Sharron]
AnnaBelle: I could take a go at it.
14:03:55 [Bim]
zakim, mute me
14:03:55 [Zakim]
Bim should now be muted
14:04:03 [LiamM]
zakim, unmute me
14:04:03 [Zakim]
LiamM should no longer be muted
14:04:04 [shawn]
ack l
14:04:05 [Zakim]
LiamM, you wanted to ask 'is it ready yet (no)' info is missing
14:04:05 [hbj]
zakim, mute me
14:04:07 [LiamM]
ack me
14:04:07 [Zakim]
hbj should now be muted
14:04:35 [Sharron]
Liam: The only thing missing from the intro is the sense of whether this is ready now? The answer ios no and should be made clear.
14:04:43 [shawn]
action: Shawn to IndieUI Overview - add status of the docs
14:04:43 [trackbot]
Created ACTION-260 - IndieUI Overview - add status of the docs [on Shawn Henry - due 2013-01-25].
14:04:46 [Sharron]
...that it is more of a heads up that it is coming.
14:04:52 [LiamM]
zakim, mute me
14:04:52 [Zakim]
LiamM should now be muted
14:05:33 [Sharron]
Shawn: OK Annabelle what would be your time frame/availability for mocking up the diagram?
14:06:04 [Sharron]
Annabelle: Could have soemthing by 1/24 or 1/25 - does that work?
14:06:21 [Sharron]
s/soemthing/something
14:07:00 [Sharron]
...or the end of the day 1/23.
14:07:06 [Sharron]
Shawn: Great, thaks!
14:07:15 [LiamM]
zakim, unmute me
14:07:15 [Zakim]
LiamM should no longer be muted
14:07:23 [Sharron]
s/thaks!/thanks!
14:08:04 [LiamM]
zakim, mute me
14:08:04 [Zakim]
LiamM should now be muted
14:08:46 [shawn]
action: Shawn to IndieUI Overview - add real address instead of "An email address for sending comments is included in the "Status of this Document" sections."
14:08:46 [trackbot]
Created ACTION-261 - IndieUI Overview - add real address instead of "An email address for sending comments is included in the "Status of this Document" sections." [on Shawn Henry - due 2013-01-25].
14:09:25 [Sharron]
Shawn: Watch for announcement next week. It is pretty cool new work and has broad appeal. We are hoping people will get excited about it.
14:09:35 [Sharron]
Topic: Easy Checks
14:09:49 [shawn]
title brainstorming: An email address for sending comments is included in the "Status of this Document" sections.
14:09:58 [shawn]
s/title brainstorming: An email address for sending comments is included in the "Status of this Document" sections./ /
14:10:11 [shawn]
title brainstorming: http://www.w3.org/WAI/EO/wiki/Eval_Analysis#Title_ideas
14:10:31 [LiamM]
zakim, unmute me
14:10:31 [Zakim]
LiamM should no longer be muted
14:11:44 [AnnaBelle]
I still like it very much
14:12:04 [Bim]
I still like it
14:12:12 [Sharron]
Shawn: We did brainstorming on title last week, are open to otehr ideas. Please add to the wiki.
14:13:11 [Sharron]
...next I took a pass at edits to two of the sections. They are a bit different from the template, so let's discuss
14:13:23 [shawn]
Check image text alternatives <http://www.w3.org/WAI/EO/wiki/Web_Accessibility_Preliminary_Evaluation#Check_image_text_alternatives>
14:14:25 [Sharron]
Shawn: Reminder that we are still in very draft form so this is not polished, still experimenting with format etc so feel free to be as creative with changes as needed.
14:14:43 [Sharron]
...look at this one and discuss what works, doesn't work, etc
14:15:47 [LiamM]
zakim, mute me
14:15:47 [Zakim]
LiamM should now be muted
14:16:21 [Sharron]
Liam: Looks good.
14:16:50 [Suzette2]
q+
14:17:03 [Bim]
ack me
14:17:05 [Sharron]
Shawn: Reminder that we want to provide some options for people who don't see the page to be able to do some checks. So we start with validation that will indicate if alt text is there at all.
14:18:17 [Sharron]
Bim: I think that can be complex though, for blind testers it will depend on what screen reader you have.
14:18:37 [Sharron]
Shawn: So your method would be what?
14:18:46 [Sharron]
Bim: I would use the validator.
14:18:57 [Sharron]
Bim: Yes
14:19:20 [Sharron]
..and would not require screen reader specific instructions.
14:20:31 [shawn]
ack s
14:20:33 [Sharron]
...some screen readers will ignore images with no alt text unless there is a link.
14:20:39 [Bim]
zakim, mute me
14:20:39 [Zakim]
Bim should now be muted
14:21:30 [LiamM]
FF dev tools +1
14:21:50 [Sharron]
Suzette: I think using the automatic tool is a good start to help them find whether it works. But I would not use WAVE for this. I prefer the Web Developer Toolbar for Firefox.
14:21:55 [LiamM]
zakim, unmute me
14:21:55 [Zakim]
LiamM should no longer be muted
14:22:03 [Bim]
ack me
14:22:06 [Sharron]
Sharron: I agree, the WAVE tool is so visually cluttered.
14:22:09 [Andrew]
+1 or the IE Web Accessibility toolbar
14:22:11 [sylvie]
zakim, unmute me
14:22:11 [Zakim]
Sylvie should no longer be muted
14:22:32 [Sharron]
Liam: I might use different methods myself and recommend to other developers.
14:23:01 [Sharron]
Shawn: But what if you have a newbie, an advocate who is not a developer?
14:23:16 [Sharron]
Liam: The Web Developer Toolbar, actually.
14:23:16 [AnnaBelle]
q+
14:23:21 [sylvie]
zakim, mute me
14:23:21 [Zakim]
Sylvie should now be muted
14:23:45 [LiamM]
zakim, mute me
14:23:45 [Zakim]
LiamM should now be muted
14:24:20 [Sharron]
Shawn: What we were trying to do was to provide a level of checks that anyone could do without downloading additional software. Then we were planning another level if you were able, interested in downloading tools.
14:24:25 [Andrew]
in FF - right click on image and select 'view image info'
14:24:45 [Sharron]
...the other thing is the flow of how we present this information, what will be the flow.
14:25:04 [sylvie]
I would like to note that even if the developer toolbar from Firefox contains the word "developer", it is easy to use for disabling images, or showing heading and make the issue understandable for non technical people who want to check a page.
14:25:20 [LiamM]
+1 what Sylvie said
14:25:31 [sylvie]
zakim, unmute me
14:25:31 [Zakim]
Sylvie should no longer be muted
14:26:21 [Andrew]
ditto with http://paciellogroup.com/resources/wat/ie
14:26:28 [Sharron]
Sylvie: I agree with Liam. The checks are easily performed and give you such clear results, you do not need to be technical to understand.
14:26:30 [AnnaBelle]
As a developer my first choice is view source
14:27:10 [hbj]
+q
14:27:24 [LiamM]
Tau?
14:27:34 [Sharron]
Suzette: What about the Spanish accessibility testing page?
14:27:43 [Sharron]
...I will look for it.
14:27:53 [hbj]
ack me
14:28:54 [AnnaBelle]
q+
14:29:09 [sylvie]
zakim, mute me
14:29:09 [Zakim]
Sylvie should now be muted
14:29:25 [Sharron]
Bim: If you are looking for something very simple, the Functional Accessibility Evaluator that can be loaded into the browser
14:29:42 [Sharron]
Shawn: Is there a stand-alone version?
14:29:44 [Andrew]
http://fae.cita.uiuc.edu/
14:29:51 [Sharron]
Andrew: Yes there is
14:30:46 [LiamM]
zakim, mute me
14:30:46 [Zakim]
LiamM was already muted, LiamM
14:31:11 [Bim]
zakim, mute me
14:31:11 [Zakim]
Bim should now be muted
14:31:34 [Sharron]
Helle: I was thinking about a problem we have here. We have strict rules about what I can download and no adminstrator rights.
14:31:39 [Andrew]
q+ to suggest tools list at end of doc for (slightly) more advanced users
14:32:11 [Sharron]
...so I must have tools that are web based or do not require admin rights. I could not, for example use the Toolbars that must be downloaded.
14:32:37 [Sharron]
...I could not recommend anything that included the need to download.
14:33:11 [shawn]
ack anna
14:33:20 [shawn]
ack and
14:33:20 [Zakim]
Andrew, you wanted to suggest tools list at end of doc for (slightly) more advanced users
14:33:22 [Sharron]
Shawn: That's why we wanted to make two levels of checks - the first with no need to download, the second where that IS a possibility.
14:33:33 [hbj]
zakim, mute me
14:33:33 [Zakim]
hbj should now be muted
14:34:03 [Sharron]
Andrew: Because so many of the tools are so easy to use if youa re able to download, I wonder if it is useful to have a list of free tools that we think would be useful.
14:35:03 [hbj]
q+
14:35:21 [hbj]
ack me
14:35:34 [Sharron]
Shawn: Clearly there is consensus that we want to put additional tool information somewhere we have just not yet sorted through how to do that.
14:35:56 [Bim]
q+
14:35:59 [Sharron]
Helle: Would it be possible to see if you can use without adminstrator rights?
14:36:11 [Sharron]
Shawn: I'll take an action
14:36:18 [sylvie]
zakim, unmute me
14:36:18 [Zakim]
Sylvie should no longer be muted
14:37:02 [shawn]
ACTION: Shawn <http://www.w3.org/WAI/EO/wiki/Web_Accessibility_Preliminary_Evaluation#Check_image_text_alternatives> add to WAVE instructions that this is only if you can't download a tool. then add instructions for FF Developer toolbar separately
14:37:02 [trackbot]
Created ACTION-262 - <http://www.w3.org/WAI/EO/wiki/Web_Accessibility_Preliminary_Evaluation#Check_image_text_alternatives> add to WAVE instructions that this is only if you can't download a tool. then add instructions for FF Developer toolbar separately [on Shawn Henry - due 2013-01-25].
14:38:06 [Sharron]
Sylvie: We are preparing a training for next week. They run a virtual machine and the question is if we have all the tools we need. The developer toolbar from Firefox is one that you can install without admin rights.
14:38:25 [Bim]
ack me
14:38:47 [Sharron]
Shawn: Thanks for that, any other comments on this alt text sections?
14:39:14 [Sharron]
Sylvie: The advice so far is good but we should also add the information that human judgment is needed about quality fo alt text.
14:39:21 [hbj]
zakim, mute me
14:39:21 [Zakim]
hbj should now be muted
14:40:40 [Sharron]
Sylvie: It would be helpful to not make this only reliant on blind people's needs but be useful to go beyond one disability. Needed by those with voice input and machine searches.
14:41:11 [Sharron]
Shawn: There is a challenge between giving a more complete explanation and our desie to keep these quick and short.
14:41:21 [Sharron]
s/desie/desire
14:41:35 [Sharron]
...should we look for a place to point to externally?
14:41:59 [Sharron]
Sylvie: I think you can make it short and add at least one other use case.
14:43:27 [Sharron]
Bim: People who are keyboard only users and may use Search
14:43:52 [sylvie]
zakim, mute me
14:43:52 [Zakim]
Sylvie should now be muted
14:44:32 [Sharron]
...browser search won't find image based on alt text.
14:45:15 [Suzette2]
q+
14:45:20 [shawn]
ack s
14:45:37 [Andrew]
q+ to talk about context
14:45:57 [LiamM]
q+ to ask about headings 'Quick Checks' and 'A Deeper Look'
14:46:04 [Sharron]
Suzette: Aren't there optiona on all browsers to say you don't want to download images and then see the alt text?
14:47:23 [Sharron]
Shawn: If images have a size defined, you get a box of that size with alt text. Other problems can occur, inlcuding page layout changes and hidden alt text. It can be difficult to use effectively.
14:47:44 [Bim]
zakim, mute me
14:47:44 [Zakim]
Bim should now be muted
14:48:05 [Sharron]
Suzette: Yes, WAVE does seem to address a lot of those user needs.
14:48:25 [Sharron]
...and FANGS
14:48:47 [Sharron]
Sharron: Yes I love FANGS too but think it may not have been updated recently.
14:49:55 [Sharron]
Shawn: If we go with the approach - the 5 top items don't use tools and the rest may include tools - we may want to give the instructions for WAVE and a kind of disclaimer, that could work.
14:50:22 [hbj]
q+
14:50:28 [Sharron]
...may not have it two places, but maybe instead sections within each section for if you can download tools and a section if you cannot.
14:50:42 [Andrew]
ack me
14:50:42 [Zakim]
Andrew, you wanted to talk about context
14:50:42 [shawn]
ack a
14:51:26 [Sharron]
Andrew: Context of an image needs to be taken into account. Not sure how that gets drawn out in relation to what is there, but wanted to put it out for consideration.
14:51:31 [shawn]
ACTION: Shawn <http://www.w3.org/WAI/EO/wiki/Web_Accessibility_Preliminary_Evaluation#Check_image_text_alternatives> to tips add context -- e.g., dog breed or just decorative
14:51:31 [trackbot]
Created ACTION-263 - <http://www.w3.org/WAI/EO/wiki/Web_Accessibility_Preliminary_Evaluation#Check_image_text_alternatives> to tips add context -- e.g., dog breed or just decorative [on Shawn Henry - due 2013-01-25].
14:51:37 [shawn]
ack l
14:51:38 [Zakim]
LiamM, you wanted to ask about headings 'Quick Checks' and 'A Deeper Look'
14:51:38 [LiamM]
zakim, unmute me
14:51:39 [Zakim]
LiamM was not muted, LiamM
14:51:50 [hbj]
ack me
14:51:51 [shawn]
ack h
14:52:45 [Sharron]
Helle: When we talk about using WAVE as a tool that does not need downloading, maybe help them learn to View Source. It is easy to guide them through. Even without knowing code, they could find it.
14:52:58 [Sharron]
Liam: Not as easy with more scripting in the code
14:53:12 [Sharron]
Andrew: It may be frightening, intimidating.
14:53:37 [Sharron]
Helle: I agree that WAVE can sometimes be overwhelming and not clear.
14:53:39 [LiamM]
zakim, unack me
14:53:39 [Zakim]
I don't understand 'unack me', LiamM
14:54:02 [Sharron]
Andrew: Previous iteration allowed you to toggle items to be checked on and off.
14:54:21 [hbj]
zakim, mute me
14:54:21 [Zakim]
hbj should now be muted
14:55:01 [Sharron]
Liam: High level headings are Quick Checks and A Deeper Look. If the title is Quick Checks, that should be changed.
14:55:05 [LiamM]
zakim, mute me
14:55:05 [Zakim]
LiamM should now be muted
14:55:25 [Sharron]
Shawn: Yes since we have recently renamed the overall document, we will revisit.
14:55:36 [Sharron]
...will also take another edit pass.
14:55:56 [Sharron]
Subtopic: Check Headings and Lists
14:56:05 [shawn]
Check headings and lists Check headings and lists
14:56:18 [shawn]
s/Check headings and lists Check headings and lists/ /
14:56:27 [Sharron]
Shawn: Many of your previous comments apply to this section. Any additional comments?
14:56:29 [shawn]
Check headings and lists http://www.w3.org/WAI/EO/wiki/Web_Accessibility_Preliminary_Evaluation#Check_headings_and_lists
14:56:29 [LiamM]
zakim, unmute me
14:56:29 [Zakim]
LiamM should no longer be muted
14:56:34 [hbj]
zakim, unmute me
14:56:34 [Zakim]
hbj should no longer be muted
14:56:46 [LiamM]
zakim, mute me
14:56:46 [Zakim]
LiamM should now be muted
14:56:50 [Sharron]
Liam: Nothing about ordering of headings.
14:57:16 [LiamM]
zakim, unmute me
14:57:16 [Zakim]
LiamM should no longer be muted
14:57:29 [Sharron]
Shawn: One of our discussion topics was that we would try to steer away from contentious issues. There is contention about the heading levels.
14:57:45 [hbj]
q+
14:57:55 [Sharron]
Liam: There is either meaning to level 1,2,3 etc or there is not.
14:58:18 [Sharron]
Shawn: So we need to say something about that perhaps.
14:58:52 [Sharron]
Andrew: Maybe provide a bit of leeway - something like headings are preferably structured this way.
14:59:02 [shawn]
ack h
14:59:19 [LiamM]
Heading levels should be a meaningful hierarchy.
14:59:34 [Sharron]
Helle: Can we mention the need to not use lists when headings are more appropriate?
14:59:41 [Sharron]
Liam: It is contextual.
15:00:12 [Sharron]
Helle: But we see it often and may need to make the point that lists should be used for grouping related items.
15:00:16 [LiamM]
zakim, mute me
15:00:16 [Zakim]
LiamM should now be muted
15:00:53 [LiamM]
zakim, unmute me
15:00:53 [Zakim]
LiamM should no longer be muted
15:00:59 [Sharron]
Shawn: It was called "Check Headings and other Semantic Structure" thought that was intimidating. Are there other things to add?
15:01:28 [LiamM]
zakim, mute me
15:01:28 [Zakim]
LiamM should now be muted
15:01:30 [Sharron]
AnnaBelle: I found the addition of lists confusing. For Easy Checks, maybe just headings?
15:01:34 [Sharron]
Liam: Yes agreed
15:01:38 [Sharron]
Helle: agreed
15:01:41 [Andrew]
+1 to headings only
15:01:50 [LiamM]
Liam was agreeing with AnnaBelle
15:01:59 [Suzette2]
+1 headings
15:02:01 [LiamM]
zakim, unmute me
15:02:01 [Zakim]
LiamM should no longer be muted
15:02:11 [Sharron]
Shawn: So if we separate out Headings, what other semantic mark-up might be useful?
15:02:17 [LiamM]
zakim, mute me
15:02:17 [Zakim]
LiamM should now be muted
15:02:40 [Sharron]
Liam: Meaningful structure but it might be too large a topic for a Quick Check.
15:02:41 [Suzette2]
lists are navigation?
15:02:49 [LiamM]
zakim, unmute me
15:02:49 [Zakim]
LiamM should no longer be muted
15:02:56 [Sharron]
Shawn: Include lists a s aseparate item?
15:03:12 [LiamM]
zakim, mute me
15:03:13 [Zakim]
LiamM should now be muted
15:03:20 [Sharron]
Helle: what about labels?
15:03:30 [Sharron]
Liam: Not sure that inaccurate list structure is as important as labels.
15:03:36 [LiamM]
zakim, unmute me
15:03:36 [Zakim]
LiamM should no longer be muted
15:03:44 [Andrew]
q+ to mention confusing vs. unusable as criteria
15:03:44 [Sharron]
Shawn: So leave lists entirely out of Quick Checks?
15:04:14 [shawn]
ack a
15:04:14 [Zakim]
Andrew, you wanted to mention confusing vs. unusable as criteria
15:04:21 [Sharron]
Suzette: Links are often held within lists and are very important so seems like it should be referenced in some form or another.
15:04:22 [hbj]
q+
15:04:32 [shawn]
ack h
15:04:32 [Bim]
ack me
15:04:48 [LiamM]
zakim, unmute me
15:04:48 [Zakim]
LiamM was not muted, LiamM
15:04:48 [Sharron]
Andrew: A criteria for inlcusion should be whether people are likely to be confused by it.
15:05:17 [Sharron]
Helle: Links might be better addressed on their own rather than in relation to lists.
15:05:28 [Sharron]
..it may not be a big accessibility problem.
15:05:28 [LiamM]
zakim, mute me
15:05:28 [Zakim]
LiamM should now be muted
15:05:43 [Andrew]
s/ confused by it/ confused by it or stopped from doing something
15:06:02 [hbj]
zakim, mute me
15:06:02 [Zakim]
hbj should now be muted
15:06:39 [Sharron]
Bim: I am a bit torn becasue personally I use lists a lot in navigation. But the problems introduced by misuse of list structure, like definition lists, ordered vs unordered lists, etc are less critical than headings.
15:06:48 [LiamM]
+1
15:07:34 [Andrew]
+1
15:07:54 [Sharron]
Shawn: If you have navigation that is not marked up as a list, how much of an issue is that?
15:07:58 [hbj]
+1
15:10:39 [Sharron]
Bim: Becasue I can pull up a list of links in JAWS it is less of an issue. But if it is placed within a list, you can bypass the entire list if wanted. So while lists are preferable they do not create impentrable barriers when omitted or done badly.
15:11:22 [Sharron]
Suzette: It will be useful to make a reference to lists perhaps within the links section of the Quick Checks.
15:11:48 [Andrew]
Bim - that is what I meant by inconvenient or confusing vs stopping a person using a page
15:12:12 [Sharron]
Once of the things in this section is the tutorial of how to use BAD. I am assuming this will be on a toggle about how to use BAD to accomplish this check.
15:12:13 [Bim]
zakim, mute me
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Bim should now be muted
15:12:49 [Sharron]
Subtopic: Introduction
15:12:57 [shawn]
Introduction http://www.w3.org/WAI/EO/wiki/Web_Accessibility_Preliminary_Evaluation#Introduction
15:14:08 [LiamM]
zakim, unmute me
15:14:08 [Zakim]
LiamM should no longer be muted
15:14:20 [Sharron]
Liam: It is very friendly
15:15:36 [Sharron]
...the only less friendly is the long "Website Accessibility Conformance Evaluation Methodology" maybe that could be rephrased.
15:16:00 [LiamM]
If possible, avoid saying 'WCAG-EM, Website Accessibility Conformance Evaluation Methodology.'
15:16:09 [Sharron]
Shawn: Any other response about what needs to be changed, added, is missing?
15:16:14 [LiamM]
zakim, mute me
15:16:14 [Zakim]
LiamM should now be muted
15:16:59 [Sharron]
AnnaBelle: Could be shorter
15:17:11 [hbj]
zakim, unmute me
15:17:11 [Zakim]
hbj should no longer be muted
15:18:12 [sylvie]
zakim, unmute me
15:18:12 [Zakim]
Sylvie should no longer be muted
15:18:19 [LiamM]
zakim, unmute me
15:18:19 [Zakim]
LiamM should no longer be muted
15:18:25 [LiamM]
zakim, mute me
15:18:25 [Zakim]
LiamM should now be muted
15:18:28 [Sharron]
Helle: Looking at the sentence, needs rewriting "hey are provided to guide in the performance of some simple tests that can indicate whether or not accessibility has been considered in even the most rudimentary way."
15:18:33 [Andrew]
q+ to mention 'no tools'
15:19:06 [LiamM]
q+ to suggest remove 'provided to guide in the performance of '
15:20:01 [sylvie]
zakim, mute me
15:20:01 [Zakim]
Sylvie should now be muted
15:20:07 [Sharron]
Helle: aRE WE EMPHASIZING ENOUGH THE FACT THAT THIS IS NOT A DEFINITIVE CHECK?
15:20:24 [LiamM]
zakim, unmute me
15:20:24 [Zakim]
LiamM should no longer be muted
15:20:27 [Sharron]
sHAWN: iS IT CLEAR ENOUGH THAT IF YOU PASS ALL THE qUICK cHECKS YOU MAY NOT MEET STANDARDS?
15:21:07 [Sharron]
Liam: The second paragraph certainly gives that idea. But the headings don't lead you into that.
15:21:38 [LiamM]
zakim, unmute me
15:21:38 [Zakim]
LiamM was not muted, LiamM
15:21:48 [Sharron]
Shawn: So a question was whether we have that "disclaimer" in the intro paragraph only or do we also need that in each section.
15:22:00 [shawn]
q?
15:22:26 [Sharron]
Liam: You can keep it short but simply add to each section a link "To see if you are passing WCAG" and link out to more comprehensive.
15:22:35 [shawn]
ack a
15:22:35 [Zakim]
Andrew, you wanted to mention 'no tools'
15:22:37 [Andrew]
+1 to mentioning in intro and in sections
15:22:42 [LiamM]
zakim, mute me
15:22:42 [Zakim]
LiamM should now be muted
15:23:07 [Sharron]
Andrew: Is it worth adding to the intro that the Quickest, the Top 5 can be done without tools?
15:23:08 [shawn]
zakim, who is making noise?
15:23:19 [Zakim]
shawn, listening for 10 seconds I heard sound from the following: hbj (25%), Andrew (95%)
15:24:01 [Sharron]
...many people think you must have a whole bunch of tools.
15:24:08 [shawn]
ack l
15:24:09 [Zakim]
LiamM, you wanted to suggest remove 'provided to guide in the performance of '
15:24:11 [LiamM]
zakim, UNMUTE ME
15:24:11 [Zakim]
sorry, LiamM, I do not know which phone connection belongs to ME
15:24:35 [hbj]
zakim, mute me
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hbj should now be muted
15:25:12 [sylvie]
sylvie has joined #eo
15:25:23 [LiamM]
zakim, mute me
15:25:23 [Zakim]
LiamM should now be muted
15:25:27 [Sharron]
Liam: can just lose "provided to guide in the performance of some" to improve that sentence.
15:26:13 [Sharron]
Shawn: We started out with a really really long list and pared it down based on criteria of quick and non-contentious checks.
15:26:46 [Sharron]
...reminder that this is in the wiki. Please feel free to add to, edit this section or others.
15:27:07 [Sharron]
...there is a link to previous drafts. We can always go get old versions if needed.
15:27:32 [Sharron]
...soemtimes hard to find so occasionally I will take a snapshot before making significant changes.
15:28:21 [Sharron]
...may come a point where we call a stable version and ask you to check in with a main editor before making changes, but we are not there yet.
15:28:27 [shawn]
q?
15:29:20 [Sharron]
Andrew: You mention tools that I don't understand in the Color Contrast section. What is a lexical tool?
15:30:32 [Sharron]
Shawn: Something that Wayne added. Notice that at the bottom of the sections I just edited is a link to the old version and all of Wayne's notes are there. There is a lot of narrative beyond the Easy Checks, it is archived so feel free to change.
15:31:12 [Sharron]
...who can take a pass at next sections on this? Color/Contrast, Forms, others
15:31:36 [Sharron]
Andrew: Can't promis but will try to tak a pass at Color/Contrast
15:32:07 [Sharron]
s/promis but will try to tak /promise but will try to take
15:32:38 [Sharron]
Shawn: In thinking about forms include considerations of keyboard
15:33:05 [Sharron]
...Sharron, update media
15:33:21 [Sharron]
ACTION: Sharron update media. update forms
15:33:21 [trackbot]
Created ACTION-264 - Update media. update forms [on Sharron Rush - due 2013-01-25].
15:33:43 [Sharron]
ACTION: Ian update zoom in Quick Checks wiki
15:33:43 [trackbot]
Created ACTION-265 - Update zoom in Quick Checks wiki [on Ian Pouncey - due 2013-01-25].
15:34:17 [Sharron]
Shawn: Remember that on top of EO are actions for all.
15:34:55 [Sharron]
...meeting at CSUN. Thanks for input and see you next week.
15:34:58 [Bim]
ack me
15:35:04 [LiamM]
zakim, unmute me
15:35:04 [Zakim]
LiamM should no longer be muted
15:35:05 [hbj]
hbj has left #eo
15:35:08 [Zakim]
-Bim
15:35:10 [Zakim]
-AnnaBelle
15:35:12 [Zakim]
-hbj
15:35:13 [Zakim]
-LiamM
15:35:16 [Zakim]
-Sylvie
15:35:17 [Zakim]
-Suzette
15:35:41 [Suzette2]
Sharon - I'll have a look at forms and think about what we needd to do!
15:36:15 [LiamM]
LiamM has left #eo
15:37:42 [Sharron]
trackbot, end meeting
15:37:42 [trackbot]
Zakim, list attendees
15:37:42 [Zakim]
As of this point the attendees have been AnnaBelle, Shawn, Bim, Sharron, hbj, Suzette, +61.4.473.8.aaaa, Andrew, +44.123.961.aabb, LiamM, Sylvie
15:37:50 [trackbot]
RRSAgent, please draft minutes
15:37:50 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2013/01/18-eo-minutes.html trackbot
15:37:51 [trackbot]
RRSAgent, bye
15:37:51 [RRSAgent]
I see 6 open action items saved in http://www.w3.org/2013/01/18-eo-actions.rdf :
15:37:51 [RRSAgent]
ACTION: Shawn to IndieUI Overview - add status of the docs [1]
15:37:51 [RRSAgent]
recorded in http://www.w3.org/2013/01/18-eo-irc#T14-04-43
15:37:51 [RRSAgent]
ACTION: Shawn to IndieUI Overview - add real address instead of "An email address for sending comments is included in the "Status of this Document" sections." [2]
15:37:51 [RRSAgent]
recorded in http://www.w3.org/2013/01/18-eo-irc#T14-08-46
15:37:51 [RRSAgent]
ACTION: Shawn <http://www.w3.org/WAI/EO/wiki/Web_Accessibility_Preliminary_Evaluation#Check_image_text_alternatives> add to WAVE instructions that this is only if you can't download a tool. then add instructions for FF Developer toolbar separately [3]
15:37:51 [RRSAgent]
recorded in http://www.w3.org/2013/01/18-eo-irc#T14-37-02
15:37:51 [RRSAgent]
ACTION: Shawn <http://www.w3.org/WAI/EO/wiki/Web_Accessibility_Preliminary_Evaluation#Check_image_text_alternatives> to tips add context -- e.g., dog breed or just decorative [4]
15:37:51 [RRSAgent]
recorded in http://www.w3.org/2013/01/18-eo-irc#T14-51-31
15:37:51 [RRSAgent]
ACTION: Sharron update media. update forms [5]
15:37:51 [RRSAgent]
recorded in http://www.w3.org/2013/01/18-eo-irc#T15-33-21
15:37:51 [RRSAgent]
ACTION: Ian update zoom in Quick Checks wiki [6]
15:37:51 [RRSAgent]
recorded in http://www.w3.org/2013/01/18-eo-irc#T15-33-43