14:26:21 <RRSAgent> RRSAgent has joined #rd
14:26:21 <RRSAgent> logging to http://www.w3.org/2013/01/16-rd-irc
14:26:21 <sharper> zakim, please clear the agenda
14:26:22 <Zakim> agenda cleared
14:26:23 <trackbot> RRSAgent, make logs world
14:26:25 <trackbot> Zakim, this will be 7394
14:26:25 <Zakim> ok, trackbot; I see WAI_RDWG()9:30AM scheduled to start in 4 minutes
14:26:26 <trackbot> Meeting: Research and Development Working Group Teleconference
14:26:26 <trackbot> Date: 16 January 2013
14:26:28 <klaus> klaus has joined #rd
14:26:47 <sharper> Chair: Harper_Simon
14:26:47 <sharper> Agenda+ Welcome & Logistics (Regrets, Agenda Requests, Comments) [sharper]
14:26:48 <sharper> Agenda+ Mobile Note Para-by-Para Review - https://dl.dropbox.com/u/2094833/RDWG%20Mobile%20Note.html [yeliz/peter/simon]
14:26:57 <sharper> zakim, save agenda
14:27:03 <Zakim> ok, sharper, the agenda has been written to http://www.w3.org/2013/01/16-rd-agenda.rdf
14:27:07 <sharper> zakim, take up item 1
14:27:07 <Zakim> agendum 1. "Welcome & Logistics (Regrets, Agenda Requests, Comments)" taken up [from sharper]
14:27:15 <sharper> rrsagent, make logs public
14:27:15 <sharper> rrsagent, draft minutes
14:27:15 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2013/01/16-rd-minutes.html sharper
14:28:29 <sharper>  - <http://www.w3.org/WAI/RD/scribes
14:29:02 <sharper> zakim, code?
14:29:02 <Zakim> the conference code is 7394 (tel:+1.617.761.6200 sip:zakim@voip.w3.org), sharper
14:29:53 <markel> markel has joined #rd
14:30:03 <dave> zakim, mute me
14:30:03 <Zakim> sorry, dave, I don't know what conference this is
14:30:08 <Silvia> Silvia has joined #rd
14:30:18 <shadi> zakim, this is rdwg
14:30:18 <Zakim> ok, shadi; that matches WAI_RDWG()9:30AM
14:30:26 <shadi> zakim, who is on the phone?
14:30:26 <Zakim> On the phone I see ??P10, [IPcaller], ??P12, [IPcaller.a], Shadi
14:30:59 <annika> annika has joined #rd
14:31:12 <dave> 41#
14:31:21 <klaus> 41#
14:31:25 <sharper> zakim, ??P12 is sharper
14:31:25 <Zakim> +sharper; got it
14:31:52 <dave> zakim, [IPcaller] is me
14:31:52 <Zakim> +dave; got it
14:31:57 <yeliz> yeliz has joined #rd
14:32:02 <dave> zakim, mute me
14:32:02 <Zakim> dave should now be muted
14:32:07 <klaus> zakim, ??P10 is me
14:32:07 <Zakim> +klaus; got it
14:32:17 <klaus> zakim. mute me
14:32:20 <Silvia> zakim, [IPcaller.a] is Silvia
14:32:20 <Zakim> +Silvia; got it
14:32:23 <Zakim> +[IPcaller]
14:32:31 <klaus> zakim, mute me
14:32:31 <Zakim> klaus should now be muted
14:32:34 <yeliz> zakim, [IPcaller] is yeliz
14:32:34 <Zakim> +yeliz; got it
14:32:38 <yeliz> zakim, mute me
14:32:38 <Zakim> yeliz should now be muted
14:32:39 <sharper> regrets: Peter, Vivienne, Giorgio, Mark, Yehya, Kerstin
14:32:45 <Zakim> +??P16
14:33:00 <Silvia> zakim, mute me
14:33:00 <Zakim> Silvia should now be muted
14:33:09 <markel> zakim, ??P16 is me
14:33:09 <Zakim> +markel; got it
14:33:10 <sharper> regrets+ shawn
14:34:17 <Zakim> +??P17
14:34:19 <yeliz> I can do it
14:34:23 <yeliz> no problem
14:34:30 <yeliz> zakim, unmute yeliz
14:34:30 <Zakim> yeliz should no longer be muted
14:34:46 <yeliz> zakim, mute me
14:34:46 <Zakim> yeliz should now be muted
14:34:51 <sharper> https://dl.dropbox.com/u/2094833/RDWG%20Mobile%20Note.html
14:34:54 <annika> zakim, ??P17 is me
14:34:54 <Zakim> +annika; got it
14:34:58 <shadi> scribe: shadi
14:35:04 <annika> zakim, mute me
14:35:04 <Zakim> annika should now be muted
14:35:12 <shadi> zakim, mute me
14:35:12 <Zakim> Shadi should now be muted
14:36:01 <yeliz> zakim, unmute me
14:36:01 <Zakim> yeliz should no longer be muted
14:36:29 <yeliz> zakim, mute me
14:36:30 <Zakim> yeliz should now be muted
14:36:42 <shadi> ack me
14:38:22 <shadi> q- ??p12
14:38:27 <shadi> q- ipcaller
14:39:13 <shadi> agenda?
14:39:23 <shadi> zakim, take up agendum 2
14:39:23 <Zakim> agendum 2. "Mobile Note Para-by-Para Review - https://dl.dropbox.com/u/2094833/RDWG%20Mobile%20Note.html" taken up [from yeliz/peter/simon via sharper]
14:39:45 <shadi> SH: any concerns with going paragraph-by-paragraph?
14:40:03 <shadi> SAZ: sometimes need to go back and look at the bigger picture, flow, or such
14:40:06 <yeliz> zakim, unmute me
14:40:08 <Zakim> yeliz should no longer be muted
14:40:24 <yeliz> zakim, mute me
14:40:24 <Zakim> yeliz should now be muted
14:40:30 <shadi> SH: absolutely, emphasis is on the core message rather than typographics
14:40:38 <yeliz> zakim, unmute me
14:40:38 <Zakim> yeliz should no longer be muted
14:40:46 <shadi> [[Abstract]]
14:41:35 <yeliz> zakim, mute me
14:41:35 <Zakim> yeliz should now be muted
14:41:51 <shadi> YY: Shawn had comment on citation
14:42:00 <shadi> http://www.w3.org/2001/06/manual/#citation
14:43:11 <yeliz> yes
14:43:21 <shadi> SAZ: W3C Manual of Style has section on citation that we need to follow
14:43:34 <shadi> SH: will add to the guidance for document editors
14:43:49 <shadi> q+
14:43:58 <shadi> q- ipcaller
14:44:30 <yeliz> we don't know
14:44:31 <yeliz> that
14:44:34 <yeliz> :)
14:44:42 <yeliz> we don't know if it is good or bad
14:44:43 <yeliz> :))
14:44:46 <shadi> q- [ipcaller]
14:44:48 <shadi> q-
14:45:32 <shadi> SAZ: the word "sophisticated" sticks out
14:45:45 <shadi> ...will comment separately on such wording stuff
14:46:04 <shadi> q+
14:48:10 <shadi> SH: maybe good to clarify
14:48:10 <yeliz> We refer them in the future directions part
14:48:22 <yeliz> Under "research roadmap"
14:48:26 <shadi> SAZ: only reference existing work but there is more in development
14:48:38 <shadi> SH: maybe too much for the abstract
14:48:54 <dave> Q+
14:49:03 <sharper> Ack sha
14:49:04 <shadi> SAZ: maybe link to the MWI "roadmap" rather than enumerate all the work
14:49:04 <shadi> q-
14:49:06 <sharper> ack dav
14:49:06 <dave> ack me
14:49:19 <shadi> [[Introduction]]
14:49:38 <shadi> DS: maybe better to scope what "mobile devices" are
14:50:02 <shadi> ...smart phones but maybe also portable computers?
14:50:22 <shadi> ...is it just mobility aspect or also location services in such devices?
14:50:24 <shadi> +1
14:50:46 <shadi> SH: agree, could define them as how MWBP define them
14:51:02 <yeliz> I did, thanks David
14:51:10 <dave> zakim, mute me
14:51:10 <Zakim> dave should now be muted
14:51:44 <dave> q+
14:51:59 <dave> ack me
14:52:00 <sharper> ack dave
14:52:44 <shadi> DS: assertion about iOS in paragraph 3 needs qualification
14:52:59 <shadi> ...otherwise may seem biased
14:53:01 <yeliz> zakim, unmute me
14:53:01 <Zakim> yeliz should no longer be muted
14:53:08 <shadi> ...also typo "accessibility community"
14:53:11 <dave> zakim, unmute me
14:53:11 <Zakim> dave was not muted, dave
14:53:16 <dave> zakim, mute me
14:53:16 <Zakim> dave should now be muted
14:53:44 <dave> zakim, unmute me
14:53:44 <Zakim> dave should no longer be muted
14:53:47 <shadi> YY: what specifically is the issue?
14:54:08 <shadi> SH: "excellent accessibility features"
14:55:01 <yeliz> zakim, mute me
14:55:01 <Zakim> yeliz should now be muted
14:55:09 <yeliz> Thanks, David
14:55:14 <shadi> SAZ: maybe stay more objective, like "built-in" rather than "excellent"
14:55:24 <dave> zakim, mute me
14:55:24 <Zakim> dave should now be muted
14:56:42 <yeliz> zakim, unmute me
14:56:42 <Zakim> yeliz should no longer be muted
14:56:47 <yeliz> zakim, q+
14:56:47 <Zakim> I see yeliz on the speaker queue
14:57:01 <shadi> q+
14:57:05 <sharper> ack yeli
14:57:09 <shadi> SAZ: also here we have focus on "existing standards" only
14:57:19 <shadi> ...actually here is only subset of that too
14:57:27 <shadi> ...seems to be issue throughout
14:57:37 <shadi> YY: these are specific examples
14:57:42 <sharper> ack shad
14:57:42 <shadi> ack me
14:58:09 <yeliz> zakim, mute me
14:58:09 <Zakim> yeliz should now be muted
14:59:39 <yeliz> zakim, unmute me
14:59:39 <Zakim> yeliz should no longer be muted
15:00:04 <shadi> SAZ: maybe need to scope the standards we are considering
15:00:20 <shadi> ...rather than enumerate a different list each time
15:00:26 <yeliz> zakim, mute me
15:00:26 <Zakim> yeliz should now be muted
15:00:31 <yeliz> yes, I will do that
15:00:40 <shadi> YY: not sure fully understand
15:01:04 <Zakim> -sharper
15:01:04 <shadi> ...was not the scope of the symposium
15:01:13 <shadi> SH: think understand the issue, will discuss the editors
15:01:17 <yeliz> zakim, unmute me
15:01:17 <Zakim> yeliz should no longer be muted
15:02:17 <dave> q+
15:02:22 <dave> ack me
15:02:46 <shadi> DS: maybe be explicit about when the symposium took place?
15:03:01 <shadi> ...to give a sense of time and currency
15:03:15 <shadi> +1
15:03:39 <shadi> YY: something specific changed?
15:04:04 <shadi> DS: difficult to say but may change over time
15:04:59 <shadi> ...gives chronological order
15:05:06 <shadi> YY: seems very relevant to all Notes
15:05:13 <shadi> DS: yes, agree with that
15:06:23 <shadi> [[Related Work]]
15:06:46 <shadi> DS: list of references has no apparent order
15:07:04 <shadi> ...may need a specific order style
15:07:14 <shadi> ...maybe chronological or alphabetical
15:07:21 <shadi> YY: agree, will add to issues list
15:09:01 <shadi> DS: wonder about the choice of study to back the statement "disabled users experience many difficulties when they access the web"
15:09:26 <shadi> q+
15:09:42 <shadi> YY: many studies, suggestions?
15:10:06 <shadi> DS: most general one, maybe don't need a specific assertion
15:13:26 <shadi> DS: maybe the focus needs to be on contrasting challenges on the desktop versus on the Web?
15:13:45 <dave> zakim, mute me
15:13:45 <Zakim> dave should now be muted
15:13:59 <shadi> ...could bypass the need to have references for such a generic statement
15:14:06 <shadi> [[2.1 Mobile Technology and Accessibility]]
15:16:29 <dave> +1 to shadi
15:16:50 <dave> q+
15:16:56 <dave> ack me
15:16:59 <shadi> SAZ: observation that paragraph 1 seems to be defining and scoping things that are relevant to the entire document
15:16:59 <shadi> q-
15:17:22 <shadi> ...may get lost there under "related work" and "mobile technology and accessibility" headings
15:18:34 <shadi> DS: maybe good to clarify that some features are easier to invoke and work with than others
15:19:04 <shadi> YY: very difficult to find studies about usability of features
15:19:07 <shadi> DS: maybe can say that there is less data
15:19:09 <shadi> q+
15:19:21 <shadi> YY: say something about that earlier on
15:19:48 <shadi> ...but maybe too specific and not backed with scientific work
15:19:48 <dave> zakim, mute me
15:19:48 <Zakim> dave should now be muted
15:21:17 <shadi> SAZ: not specific to mobile alone, also on the desktop accessibility features may be easier or more difficult to use
15:22:32 <shadi> ...maybe can extrapolate experience from desktop and assume that is similar on mobile?
15:22:52 <dave> q+
15:22:58 <shadi> ...know that WAI-AGE literature review looked at easy of use of accessibility features for older people
15:22:59 <dave> ack me
15:23:00 <shadi> q-
15:23:16 <shadi> YY: can find references for desktop, there are several
15:23:41 <shadi> [[2.2 Mobile Accessibility Guidelines]]
15:24:01 <shadi> DS: maybe can separate out an "evaluation" sub-section?
15:25:31 <shadi> [[2.3 Mobile Interaction Models]]
15:27:01 <shadi> SAZ: focus on mobile phones only? tablets? laptops?
15:27:39 <dave> q+ on 2.3. para 3
15:28:04 <shadi> YY: can look at the MWBP definition though may be a little outdated
15:28:16 <shadi> ...agree need to scope the term
15:28:24 <shadi> SAZ: agree may be outdated
15:28:36 <shadi> YY: need to separate from ubiquitous devices
15:28:44 <shadi> ack d
15:28:44 <Zakim> dave, you wanted to comment on 2.3. para 3
15:29:35 <dave> zakim, mute me
15:29:35 <Zakim> dave should now be muted
15:29:44 <shadi> DS: "Many studies show that small device users benefit from haptic feedback [...] Similarly, haptic feedback is also used on mobile devices in the form of vibro-tactile display"
15:30:01 <shadi> ...may need to be reworded for clarity
15:30:20 <shadi> YY: agree
15:30:40 <shadi> YY: can continue from section 3 next time
15:31:44 <markel> bye!
15:31:44 <dave> thankyou yeliz and shadi - bye!
15:31:46 <Silvia> ok, bye
15:31:49 <Zakim> -yeliz
15:31:50 <markel> markel has left #rd
15:31:51 <dave> dave has left #rd
15:31:56 <klaus> bye
15:31:57 <Zakim> -annika
15:32:00 <Zakim> -dave
15:32:04 <Zakim> -Shadi
15:32:07 <annika> annika has left #rd
15:32:10 <Zakim> -Silvia
15:32:13 <Zakim> -klaus
15:32:16 <shadi> trackbot, end meeting
15:32:16 <trackbot> Zakim, list attendees
15:32:16 <Zakim> As of this point the attendees have been Shadi, sharper, dave, klaus, Silvia, yeliz, markel, annika
15:32:24 <trackbot> RRSAgent, please draft minutes
15:32:24 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2013/01/16-rd-minutes.html trackbot
15:32:25 <trackbot> RRSAgent, bye
15:32:25 <RRSAgent> I see no action items