14:56:49 <RRSAgent> RRSAgent has joined #tt
14:56:49 <RRSAgent> logging to http://www.w3.org/2013/01/10-tt-irc
14:56:51 <trackbot> RRSAgent, make logs public
14:56:51 <Zakim> Zakim has joined #tt
14:56:53 <trackbot> Zakim, this will be TTML
14:56:53 <Zakim> ok, trackbot; I see SYMM_TTWG()10:00AM scheduled to start in 4 minutes
14:56:54 <trackbot> Meeting: Timed Text Working Group Teleconference
14:56:54 <trackbot> Date: 10 January 2013
14:57:01 <mmartin3> chair sean hayes
14:57:41 <Zakim> SYMM_TTWG()10:00AM has now started
14:57:48 <Zakim> +[Microsoft]
14:58:07 <Andreas> Andreas has joined #tt
14:58:10 <mmartin3> zakim, Microsoft is mmartin3
14:58:10 <Zakim> +mmartin3; got it
14:59:14 <Zakim> +??P9
14:59:23 <glenn> zakim, ??p9 is glenn
14:59:23 <Zakim> +glenn; got it
14:59:29 <Zakim> + +49.893.aaaa
14:59:41 <Zakim> + +1.425.658.aabb
14:59:46 <mike> mike has joined #tt
14:59:50 <pal> pal has joined #tt
15:00:03 <Sean> zakim, aabb is me
15:00:03 <Zakim> +Sean; got it
15:00:17 <mmartin3> zakim, who is on the phone?
15:00:17 <Zakim> On the phone I see mmartin3, glenn, +49.893.aaaa, Sean
15:00:24 <Zakim> + +1.858.847.aacc
15:00:48 <Zakim> +pal
15:01:25 <mmartin3> Agenda: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-tt/2013Jan/0009.html
15:01:50 <mike> zakim, aacc is me
15:01:50 <Zakim> +mike; got it
15:02:24 <mmartin3> zakim, aaaa is Andreas
15:02:24 <Zakim> +Andreas; got it
15:02:35 <mmartin3> zakim, who is on the phone?
15:02:35 <Zakim> On the phone I see mmartin3, glenn, Andreas, Sean, mike, pal
15:03:03 <mmartin3> scribenick: mmartin3
15:04:00 <Zakim> +Thomas_Bause_Mason
15:04:12 <mmartin3> zakim, list attendees
15:04:12 <Zakim> As of this point the attendees have been mmartin3, glenn, +49.893.aaaa, +1.425.658.aabb, Sean, +1.858.847.aacc, pal, mike, Andreas, Thomas_Bause_Mason
15:04:33 <mmartin3> zzakim,aaaa is Andreas
15:04:40 <mmartin3> akim, aaaa is Andreas
15:04:49 <mmartin3> zakim, aaaa is Andreas
15:04:49 <Zakim> sorry, mmartin3, I do not recognize a party named 'aaaa'
15:04:55 <tbause> tbause has joined #tt
15:05:05 <Zakim> + +1.408.771.aadd
15:05:14 <mijordan> mijordan has joined #tt
15:05:17 <mmartin3> zakim, who is on the phone?
15:05:17 <Zakim> On the phone I see mmartin3, glenn, Andreas, Sean, mike, pal, Thomas_Bause_Mason, +1.408.771.aadd
15:05:24 <mmartin3> zakim, list attendees
15:05:24 <Zakim> As of this point the attendees have been mmartin3, glenn, +49.893.aaaa, +1.425.658.aabb, Sean, +1.858.847.aacc, pal, mike, Andreas, Thomas_Bause_Mason, +1.408.771.aadd
15:05:31 <mmartin3> TOPIC: SDP-US Issues
15:05:35 <courtney> courtney has joined #tt
15:05:51 <mmartin3> Issue-198?
15:05:51 <trackbot> ISSUE-198 -- Add TTML in Title of SDP-US for Ready Recognition -- raised
15:05:51 <trackbot> http://www.w3.org/AudioVideo/TT/tracker/issues/198
15:05:58 <Zakim> +Andrew_Kirkpatrick
15:06:17 <mmartin3> mmartin3: For ease of recognition.
15:06:28 <mijordan> Zakim, Andrew_Kirkpatrick is mijordan
15:06:28 <Zakim> +mijordan; got it
15:06:41 <mmartin3> mike: sounds reasonable.
15:06:44 <mmartin3> Link: http://www.w3.org/TR/ttml10-sdp-us/
15:07:24 <mmartin3> glenn: Where do we put it?
15:07:33 <mmartin3> mjordan: What about after SDP?
15:07:46 <mmartin3> glenn: Monica's suggestion is preferred.
15:07:54 <mmartin3> Resolved to add TTML to the name of SDP-US.
15:08:22 <mmartin3> Action: Glenn Add "TTML" to name of SDP-US. Link: http://www.w3.org/TR/ttml10-sdp-us/
15:08:22 <trackbot> Created ACTION-137 - Add "TTML" to name of SDP-US. Link: http://www.w3.org/TR/ttml10-sdp-us/ [on Glenn Adams - due 2013-01-17].
15:08:23 <glenn> monica's suggestion is to put TTML at beginning of title
15:08:48 <mmartin3> sean: Redundant list of features in Appendix B.
15:09:16 <mmartin3> glenn: Don't serve any real purpose.
15:09:22 <mmartin3> ...Features defined in Section 9.
15:09:45 <mmartin3> ...Duplicative and could become out of sync (current case).
15:09:56 <mmartin3> mike: Informative summary could also be added.
15:10:34 <mmartin3> Resolved: Remove two subsections in Appendix A.
15:10:37 <mmartin3> c/A/B
15:10:37 <glenn> remove two paragraphs after table in appendix B
15:11:02 <mmartin3> Action: Glenn Delete 2 paragraphs after table in Appendix B of SDP-US.
15:11:02 <trackbot> Created ACTION-138 - Delete 2 paragraphs after table in Appendix B of SDP-US. [on Glenn Adams - due 2013-01-17].
15:11:11 <mmartin3> sean: Fix in editor's draft.
15:11:32 <mmartin3> glenn: Has to check URLs.
15:11:38 <mmartin3> mike: Public?
15:11:51 <mmartin3> http://www.w3.org/TR/ttml10-sdp-us/
15:13:01 <mmartin3> pal: Add origin and extent to SDP-US?
15:13:05 <mmartin3> ...Section 9.
15:14:01 <mmartin3> ...Do we need display-region?
15:14:24 <mmartin3> glenn: Support styling.
15:14:49 <mmartin3> ...Do we need display for other elements in addition of region?
15:15:22 <mmartin3> ...Don't think we need on other elements like span.
15:15:35 <mmartin3> ...No change.
15:16:19 <mmartin3> mmartin3: We have requirements in extent-region.
15:16:42 <mmartin3> sean: Need to add extent and origin to Section 9.
15:17:17 <mmartin3> Andreas: Do we more for layering?
15:18:08 <mmartin3> c/layering/layout
15:18:19 <mmartin3> s/layering/layout
15:18:52 <mmartin3> sean: Extent and origin consumed by layout.
15:19:01 <mmartin3> ...No change needed in Section 9.
15:19:05 <mmartin3> ....Note?
15:19:51 <plh> plh has joined #tt
15:19:55 <Zakim> +Plh
15:20:07 <mmartin3> glenn: Problem is we need to trace all others.
15:20:46 <mmartin3> ...Glenn will review to decide if we place a note in SDP-US not in Section 9.
15:21:42 <mmartin3> sean: Each feature description gives attributes and elements. Add another table or subsection in Section 9 that articulates those elements and attributes.
15:21:51 <mmartin3> glenn: Duplicates material that could become wrong.
15:22:32 <mmartin3> sean: Automate?
15:22:43 <mmartin3> glenn: Only prose in sections.
15:22:53 <mmartin3> Resolved: No change.
15:23:26 <mmartin3> glenn: SDP-US editorial issue in Example 2 has wrong font size.
15:23:47 <mmartin3> Action: Glenn Correct font size in Example 2 in SDP-US.
15:23:47 <trackbot> Created ACTION-139 - Correct font size in Example 2 in SDP-US. [on Glenn Adams - due 2013-01-17].
15:23:57 <mmartin3> TOPIC: TTML 1.0 Second Edition
15:24:10 <mmartin3> Issue-173?
15:24:10 <trackbot> ISSUE-173 -- presentation semantics of control characters and other unmapped characters -- open
15:24:10 <trackbot> http://www.w3.org/AudioVideo/TT/tracker/issues/173
15:24:53 <mmartin3> glenn: No progress on SE issues. Work on now.
15:25:20 <mmartin3> ...Not sure we discussed in detail.
15:25:37 <mmartin3> ...Character without a mapped gliff.
15:25:52 <mmartin3> ....Handle directly or indirectly in XSL-FO semantics. Need to check this.
15:26:21 <mmartin3> ...Display gliff at all? Which is specified?
15:26:45 <mmartin3> mike: Need to decide on ones that alter the flow - carriage return, tab, etc.
15:26:57 <mmartin3> ...Are they part of the behavior of the region?
15:27:06 <mmartin3> ...Ignor or substitute?
15:28:10 <mmartin3> glenn: Handled by default semantics of XSL-FO. Describe behavior whitespace handling, new lines, etc. Default semantics of XSL-FO apply because TTML 1.0 doesn't dictate them.
15:28:27 <mmartin3> ...We could put information in TTML 1.0 SE.
15:28:42 <mmartin3> ....Umbrella issue that needs to be separate.
15:28:52 <mmartin3> sean: Be clear of what semantics actually are.
15:29:38 <mmartin3> ...Need to know what is in TTML 1.0.
15:29:49 <mmartin3> glenn: What are in the specification?
15:30:00 <mmartin3> mike: Tab, Carriage Return, New Line.
15:30:17 <mmartin3> glenn: Line separator and paragraph separator.
15:30:59 <mmartin3> sean: Glenn and Mike will quantify where we are at.
15:32:06 <mmartin3> mike: Section 7..1.7 is an example where we need to clarify. https://dvcs.w3.org/hg/ttml/raw-file/tip/ttml10/spec/ttaf1-dfxp.html#content-vocabulary-br
15:32:46 <mmartin3> glenn: Reference UAX-14. May need to update and look at XSL-FO references in Second Edition.
15:33:03 <mmartin3> mike: One or more issues?
15:33:20 <mmartin3> glenn: Need another issue specifically related to whitespace handling and line breaking.
15:33:23 <mmartin3> Issue-175?
15:33:23 <trackbot> ISSUE-175 -- media type and file extension not registered -- open
15:33:23 <trackbot> http://www.w3.org/AudioVideo/TT/tracker/issues/175
15:33:54 <mmartin3> mike: Produced proposed redlines.
15:34:31 <mmartin3> ...Material to Sean and Glenn, and to TTWG is sufficient. Original TTML 1.0 said that encoding should be binary. Should be UTF-8 and UTF-16.
15:34:49 <mmartin3> glenn: Registration information says binary.
15:35:26 <mmartin3> mike: XML specific encoding is what we are targeting.
15:36:26 <mmartin3> Mike's post: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-tt/2012Nov/0036.html
15:36:39 <mmartin3> glenn: TTML 1.0 Second Edition doesn't talk about binary.
15:36:50 <mmartin3> ...Not in TTML 1.0 either.
15:37:29 <mmartin3> mike: Differences between what was given to IANA, discussion and in TTML 1.0.
15:37:34 <mmartin3> ...Talk about encoding.
15:38:06 <mmartin3> glenn: We don't have constraints for encoding. Recommended for wire encoding.
15:38:33 <mmartin3> mike: Optional parameters - application/xml supports a large number of encodings including binary.
15:39:52 <mmartin3> glenn: TTML 1.0 doesn't mandate a concrete encoding. Defines at the infoset with scalar values irrespective of their encoding.
15:40:09 <mmartin3> ...Appendix G.
15:40:42 <mmartin3> ...May differ with what was defined in MIME registration type.
15:41:11 <mmartin3> ...Shouldn't constrain.
15:41:35 <mmartin3> mike: Presentation engines that use UTF-8 and -16 gives some preference.
15:42:17 <mmartin3> ...UTF-8 document with namespace with binary.
15:42:29 <mmartin3> glenn: Where is the reference for your concern?
15:42:49 <mmartin3> sean: We do have a constraint in SDP-US.
15:44:26 <mmartin3> ...Don't understand the issue.
15:44:45 <mmartin3> mike: We have an issue on encoding.
15:45:29 <mmartin3> glenn: Content conformance has some requirements to application/xml
15:45:52 <mmartin3> Issue-197
15:45:52 <trackbot> ISSUE-197 -- charset/encoding unconstrained -- open
15:45:52 <trackbot> http://www.w3.org/AudioVideo/TT/tracker/issues/197
15:46:21 <mmartin3> ...glenn: Derive encoding from there.
15:47:13 <mmartin3> sean: Table discussion until the issue is understood.
15:47:36 <mmartin3> ...Mike put a paragraph summarizing your concerns. Sean will review.
15:49:40 <mmartin3> mike: My concern is a document constrained to UTF-8 encoding with a namespace that uses binary. There could be processing issues. There may be other constraints in XML.
15:50:20 <mmartin3> glenn: There is no explicit references other than a TTML document at runtime. There could be implicit references.
15:50:31 <mike> here is some more information, including the proposed redline of Annex C: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-tt/2013Jan/0005.html
15:50:48 <mmartin3> sean: Could use XML include.
15:51:47 <mmartin3> ...May not need a concrete MIME type. We need to comprehensively look at how you create the XML using the Infoset.
15:52:18 <mmartin3> glenn: We probably shouldn't say anything even though we may want to.
15:53:03 <mmartin3> ...Annex G could be generalized to namespace and profile documents.
15:53:45 <mmartin3> mike: Need to fix Annex C or remove entirely. If we keep it, we need to update with comments from IANA and others (see http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-tt/2013Jan/0005.html).
15:53:54 <mmartin3> ...Talk more about encoding.
15:54:40 <mmartin3> TOPIC: Actions
15:54:53 <mmartin3> Action-133?
15:54:53 <trackbot> ACTION-133 -- Mike Dolan to create updated template and summary of media type record for Glenn. -- due 2012-12-13 -- CLOSED
15:54:53 <trackbot> http://www.w3.org/AudioVideo/TT/tracker/actions/133
15:54:55 <mmartin3> Closed
15:55:05 <mmartin3> Action-136?
15:55:05 <trackbot> ACTION-136 -- Glenn Adams to integrate changes from Action-133 into the TTML 1.0 Second Edition -- due 2013-01-14 -- OPEN
15:55:05 <trackbot> http://www.w3.org/AudioVideo/TT/tracker/actions/136
15:55:37 <mmartin3> glenn: Still have issue if we need other changes. Do we delete Appendix C?
15:55:44 <mmartin3> sean: Table action given discussion.
15:55:47 <mmartin3> Issue-199?
15:55:47 <trackbot> ISSUE-199 -- timeExpression to video frame calculation is unclear in some cases -- raised
15:55:47 <trackbot> http://www.w3.org/AudioVideo/TT/tracker/issues/199
15:56:20 <mmartin3> mike: Contacted by implementers - timeExpression with frames. How do we calculate the video frame?
15:56:37 <mmartin3> ...Cases where different time representations using clock with frames that result in the same video frame.
15:56:46 <mmartin3> ...M->1 mapping OK.
15:57:20 <mmartin3> ....Glenn proposed a different algortihm to go to 1-1 with some side effects. What is the best approach and give guidance in TTML 1.0 SE.
15:57:52 <mmartin3> ...Issue exist for non-integer frame rates with timeExpression with clock with frames.
15:58:14 <mmartin3> glenn: Implementer may have come to different conclusions. What was our original intent?
15:58:37 <mmartin3> ...Thread wasn't on public reflector.
15:59:03 <mmartin3> sean: Glenn and Sean prepare a discussion document for Jan 17 or 24.
15:59:46 <mmartin3> mike: Work with issue and what is on reflector.
16:00:05 <Zakim> -glenn
16:00:12 <mmartin3> plh: Will be gone Jan 17.
16:00:18 <Zakim> -Thomas_Bause_Mason
16:00:20 <Zakim> -Plh
16:00:21 <mmartin3> trackbot, end meeting
16:00:21 <trackbot> Zakim, list attendees
16:00:21 <Zakim> As of this point the attendees have been mmartin3, glenn, +49.893.aaaa, +1.425.658.aabb, Sean, +1.858.847.aacc, pal, mike, Andreas, Thomas_Bause_Mason, +1.408.771.aadd, mijordan,
16:00:24 <Zakim> ... Plh
16:00:24 <Zakim> -Andreas
16:00:24 <Zakim> -mijordan
16:00:24 <Zakim> -mike
16:00:24 <Zakim> -Sean
16:00:25 <Zakim> -pal
16:00:29 <trackbot> RRSAgent, please draft minutes
16:00:29 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2013/01/10-tt-minutes.html trackbot
16:00:30 <trackbot> RRSAgent, bye
16:00:30 <RRSAgent> I see 3 open action items saved in http://www.w3.org/2013/01/10-tt-actions.rdf :
16:00:30 <RRSAgent> ACTION: Glenn Add "TTML" to name of SDP-US. Link: http://www.w3.org/TR/ttml10-sdp-us/ [1]
16:00:30 <RRSAgent>   recorded in http://www.w3.org/2013/01/10-tt-irc#T15-08-22
16:00:30 <RRSAgent> ACTION: Glenn Delete 2 paragraphs after table in Appendix B of SDP-US. [2]
16:00:30 <RRSAgent>   recorded in http://www.w3.org/2013/01/10-tt-irc#T15-11-02
16:00:30 <RRSAgent> ACTION: Glenn Correct font size in Example 2 in SDP-US. [3]
16:00:30 <RRSAgent>   recorded in http://www.w3.org/2013/01/10-tt-irc#T15-23-47