IRC log of tt on 2013-01-10

Timestamps are in UTC.

14:56:49 [RRSAgent]
RRSAgent has joined #tt
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logging to
14:56:51 [trackbot]
RRSAgent, make logs public
14:56:51 [Zakim]
Zakim has joined #tt
14:56:53 [trackbot]
Zakim, this will be TTML
14:56:53 [Zakim]
ok, trackbot; I see SYMM_TTWG()10:00AM scheduled to start in 4 minutes
14:56:54 [trackbot]
Meeting: Timed Text Working Group Teleconference
14:56:54 [trackbot]
Date: 10 January 2013
14:57:01 [mmartin3]
chair sean hayes
14:57:41 [Zakim]
SYMM_TTWG()10:00AM has now started
14:57:48 [Zakim]
14:58:07 [Andreas]
Andreas has joined #tt
14:58:10 [mmartin3]
zakim, Microsoft is mmartin3
14:58:10 [Zakim]
+mmartin3; got it
14:59:14 [Zakim]
14:59:23 [glenn]
zakim, ??p9 is glenn
14:59:23 [Zakim]
+glenn; got it
14:59:29 [Zakim]
+ +49.893.aaaa
14:59:41 [Zakim]
+ +1.425.658.aabb
14:59:46 [mike]
mike has joined #tt
14:59:50 [pal]
pal has joined #tt
15:00:03 [Sean]
zakim, aabb is me
15:00:03 [Zakim]
+Sean; got it
15:00:17 [mmartin3]
zakim, who is on the phone?
15:00:17 [Zakim]
On the phone I see mmartin3, glenn, +49.893.aaaa, Sean
15:00:24 [Zakim]
+ +1.858.847.aacc
15:00:48 [Zakim]
15:01:25 [mmartin3]
15:01:50 [mike]
zakim, aacc is me
15:01:50 [Zakim]
+mike; got it
15:02:24 [mmartin3]
zakim, aaaa is Andreas
15:02:24 [Zakim]
+Andreas; got it
15:02:35 [mmartin3]
zakim, who is on the phone?
15:02:35 [Zakim]
On the phone I see mmartin3, glenn, Andreas, Sean, mike, pal
15:03:03 [mmartin3]
scribenick: mmartin3
15:04:00 [Zakim]
15:04:12 [mmartin3]
zakim, list attendees
15:04:12 [Zakim]
As of this point the attendees have been mmartin3, glenn, +49.893.aaaa, +1.425.658.aabb, Sean, +1.858.847.aacc, pal, mike, Andreas, Thomas_Bause_Mason
15:04:33 [mmartin3]
zzakim,aaaa is Andreas
15:04:40 [mmartin3]
akim, aaaa is Andreas
15:04:49 [mmartin3]
zakim, aaaa is Andreas
15:04:49 [Zakim]
sorry, mmartin3, I do not recognize a party named 'aaaa'
15:04:55 [tbause]
tbause has joined #tt
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+ +1.408.771.aadd
15:05:14 [mijordan]
mijordan has joined #tt
15:05:17 [mmartin3]
zakim, who is on the phone?
15:05:17 [Zakim]
On the phone I see mmartin3, glenn, Andreas, Sean, mike, pal, Thomas_Bause_Mason, +1.408.771.aadd
15:05:24 [mmartin3]
zakim, list attendees
15:05:24 [Zakim]
As of this point the attendees have been mmartin3, glenn, +49.893.aaaa, +1.425.658.aabb, Sean, +1.858.847.aacc, pal, mike, Andreas, Thomas_Bause_Mason, +1.408.771.aadd
15:05:31 [mmartin3]
15:05:35 [courtney]
courtney has joined #tt
15:05:51 [mmartin3]
15:05:51 [trackbot]
ISSUE-198 -- Add TTML in Title of SDP-US for Ready Recognition -- raised
15:05:51 [trackbot]
15:05:58 [Zakim]
15:06:17 [mmartin3]
mmartin3: For ease of recognition.
15:06:28 [mijordan]
Zakim, Andrew_Kirkpatrick is mijordan
15:06:28 [Zakim]
+mijordan; got it
15:06:41 [mmartin3]
mike: sounds reasonable.
15:06:44 [mmartin3]
15:07:24 [mmartin3]
glenn: Where do we put it?
15:07:33 [mmartin3]
mjordan: What about after SDP?
15:07:46 [mmartin3]
glenn: Monica's suggestion is preferred.
15:07:54 [mmartin3]
Resolved to add TTML to the name of SDP-US.
15:08:22 [mmartin3]
Action: Glenn Add "TTML" to name of SDP-US. Link:
15:08:22 [trackbot]
Created ACTION-137 - Add "TTML" to name of SDP-US. Link: [on Glenn Adams - due 2013-01-17].
15:08:23 [glenn]
monica's suggestion is to put TTML at beginning of title
15:08:48 [mmartin3]
sean: Redundant list of features in Appendix B.
15:09:16 [mmartin3]
glenn: Don't serve any real purpose.
15:09:22 [mmartin3]
...Features defined in Section 9.
15:09:45 [mmartin3]
...Duplicative and could become out of sync (current case).
15:09:56 [mmartin3]
mike: Informative summary could also be added.
15:10:34 [mmartin3]
Resolved: Remove two subsections in Appendix A.
15:10:37 [mmartin3]
15:10:37 [glenn]
remove two paragraphs after table in appendix B
15:11:02 [mmartin3]
Action: Glenn Delete 2 paragraphs after table in Appendix B of SDP-US.
15:11:02 [trackbot]
Created ACTION-138 - Delete 2 paragraphs after table in Appendix B of SDP-US. [on Glenn Adams - due 2013-01-17].
15:11:11 [mmartin3]
sean: Fix in editor's draft.
15:11:32 [mmartin3]
glenn: Has to check URLs.
15:11:38 [mmartin3]
mike: Public?
15:11:51 [mmartin3]
15:13:01 [mmartin3]
pal: Add origin and extent to SDP-US?
15:13:05 [mmartin3]
...Section 9.
15:14:01 [mmartin3]
...Do we need display-region?
15:14:24 [mmartin3]
glenn: Support styling.
15:14:49 [mmartin3]
...Do we need display for other elements in addition of region?
15:15:22 [mmartin3]
...Don't think we need on other elements like span.
15:15:35 [mmartin3]
...No change.
15:16:19 [mmartin3]
mmartin3: We have requirements in extent-region.
15:16:42 [mmartin3]
sean: Need to add extent and origin to Section 9.
15:17:17 [mmartin3]
Andreas: Do we more for layering?
15:18:08 [mmartin3]
15:18:19 [mmartin3]
15:18:52 [mmartin3]
sean: Extent and origin consumed by layout.
15:19:01 [mmartin3]
...No change needed in Section 9.
15:19:05 [mmartin3]
15:19:51 [plh]
plh has joined #tt
15:19:55 [Zakim]
15:20:07 [mmartin3]
glenn: Problem is we need to trace all others.
15:20:46 [mmartin3]
...Glenn will review to decide if we place a note in SDP-US not in Section 9.
15:21:42 [mmartin3]
sean: Each feature description gives attributes and elements. Add another table or subsection in Section 9 that articulates those elements and attributes.
15:21:51 [mmartin3]
glenn: Duplicates material that could become wrong.
15:22:32 [mmartin3]
sean: Automate?
15:22:43 [mmartin3]
glenn: Only prose in sections.
15:22:53 [mmartin3]
Resolved: No change.
15:23:26 [mmartin3]
glenn: SDP-US editorial issue in Example 2 has wrong font size.
15:23:47 [mmartin3]
Action: Glenn Correct font size in Example 2 in SDP-US.
15:23:47 [trackbot]
Created ACTION-139 - Correct font size in Example 2 in SDP-US. [on Glenn Adams - due 2013-01-17].
15:23:57 [mmartin3]
TOPIC: TTML 1.0 Second Edition
15:24:10 [mmartin3]
15:24:10 [trackbot]
ISSUE-173 -- presentation semantics of control characters and other unmapped characters -- open
15:24:10 [trackbot]
15:24:53 [mmartin3]
glenn: No progress on SE issues. Work on now.
15:25:20 [mmartin3]
...Not sure we discussed in detail.
15:25:37 [mmartin3]
...Character without a mapped gliff.
15:25:52 [mmartin3]
....Handle directly or indirectly in XSL-FO semantics. Need to check this.
15:26:21 [mmartin3]
...Display gliff at all? Which is specified?
15:26:45 [mmartin3]
mike: Need to decide on ones that alter the flow - carriage return, tab, etc.
15:26:57 [mmartin3]
...Are they part of the behavior of the region?
15:27:06 [mmartin3]
...Ignor or substitute?
15:28:10 [mmartin3]
glenn: Handled by default semantics of XSL-FO. Describe behavior whitespace handling, new lines, etc. Default semantics of XSL-FO apply because TTML 1.0 doesn't dictate them.
15:28:27 [mmartin3]
...We could put information in TTML 1.0 SE.
15:28:42 [mmartin3]
....Umbrella issue that needs to be separate.
15:28:52 [mmartin3]
sean: Be clear of what semantics actually are.
15:29:38 [mmartin3]
...Need to know what is in TTML 1.0.
15:29:49 [mmartin3]
glenn: What are in the specification?
15:30:00 [mmartin3]
mike: Tab, Carriage Return, New Line.
15:30:17 [mmartin3]
glenn: Line separator and paragraph separator.
15:30:59 [mmartin3]
sean: Glenn and Mike will quantify where we are at.
15:32:06 [mmartin3]
mike: Section 7..1.7 is an example where we need to clarify.
15:32:46 [mmartin3]
glenn: Reference UAX-14. May need to update and look at XSL-FO references in Second Edition.
15:33:03 [mmartin3]
mike: One or more issues?
15:33:20 [mmartin3]
glenn: Need another issue specifically related to whitespace handling and line breaking.
15:33:23 [mmartin3]
15:33:23 [trackbot]
ISSUE-175 -- media type and file extension not registered -- open
15:33:23 [trackbot]
15:33:54 [mmartin3]
mike: Produced proposed redlines.
15:34:31 [mmartin3]
...Material to Sean and Glenn, and to TTWG is sufficient. Original TTML 1.0 said that encoding should be binary. Should be UTF-8 and UTF-16.
15:34:49 [mmartin3]
glenn: Registration information says binary.
15:35:26 [mmartin3]
mike: XML specific encoding is what we are targeting.
15:36:26 [mmartin3]
Mike's post:
15:36:39 [mmartin3]
glenn: TTML 1.0 Second Edition doesn't talk about binary.
15:36:50 [mmartin3]
...Not in TTML 1.0 either.
15:37:29 [mmartin3]
mike: Differences between what was given to IANA, discussion and in TTML 1.0.
15:37:34 [mmartin3]
...Talk about encoding.
15:38:06 [mmartin3]
glenn: We don't have constraints for encoding. Recommended for wire encoding.
15:38:33 [mmartin3]
mike: Optional parameters - application/xml supports a large number of encodings including binary.
15:39:52 [mmartin3]
glenn: TTML 1.0 doesn't mandate a concrete encoding. Defines at the infoset with scalar values irrespective of their encoding.
15:40:09 [mmartin3]
...Appendix G.
15:40:42 [mmartin3]
...May differ with what was defined in MIME registration type.
15:41:11 [mmartin3]
...Shouldn't constrain.
15:41:35 [mmartin3]
mike: Presentation engines that use UTF-8 and -16 gives some preference.
15:42:17 [mmartin3]
...UTF-8 document with namespace with binary.
15:42:29 [mmartin3]
glenn: Where is the reference for your concern?
15:42:49 [mmartin3]
sean: We do have a constraint in SDP-US.
15:44:26 [mmartin3]
...Don't understand the issue.
15:44:45 [mmartin3]
mike: We have an issue on encoding.
15:45:29 [mmartin3]
glenn: Content conformance has some requirements to application/xml
15:45:52 [mmartin3]
15:45:52 [trackbot]
ISSUE-197 -- charset/encoding unconstrained -- open
15:45:52 [trackbot]
15:46:21 [mmartin3]
...glenn: Derive encoding from there.
15:47:13 [mmartin3]
sean: Table discussion until the issue is understood.
15:47:36 [mmartin3]
...Mike put a paragraph summarizing your concerns. Sean will review.
15:49:40 [mmartin3]
mike: My concern is a document constrained to UTF-8 encoding with a namespace that uses binary. There could be processing issues. There may be other constraints in XML.
15:50:20 [mmartin3]
glenn: There is no explicit references other than a TTML document at runtime. There could be implicit references.
15:50:31 [mike]
here is some more information, including the proposed redline of Annex C:
15:50:48 [mmartin3]
sean: Could use XML include.
15:51:47 [mmartin3]
...May not need a concrete MIME type. We need to comprehensively look at how you create the XML using the Infoset.
15:52:18 [mmartin3]
glenn: We probably shouldn't say anything even though we may want to.
15:53:03 [mmartin3]
...Annex G could be generalized to namespace and profile documents.
15:53:45 [mmartin3]
mike: Need to fix Annex C or remove entirely. If we keep it, we need to update with comments from IANA and others (see
15:53:54 [mmartin3]
...Talk more about encoding.
15:54:40 [mmartin3]
TOPIC: Actions
15:54:53 [mmartin3]
15:54:53 [trackbot]
ACTION-133 -- Mike Dolan to create updated template and summary of media type record for Glenn. -- due 2012-12-13 -- CLOSED
15:54:53 [trackbot]
15:54:55 [mmartin3]
15:55:05 [mmartin3]
15:55:05 [trackbot]
ACTION-136 -- Glenn Adams to integrate changes from Action-133 into the TTML 1.0 Second Edition -- due 2013-01-14 -- OPEN
15:55:05 [trackbot]
15:55:37 [mmartin3]
glenn: Still have issue if we need other changes. Do we delete Appendix C?
15:55:44 [mmartin3]
sean: Table action given discussion.
15:55:47 [mmartin3]
15:55:47 [trackbot]
ISSUE-199 -- timeExpression to video frame calculation is unclear in some cases -- raised
15:55:47 [trackbot]
15:56:20 [mmartin3]
mike: Contacted by implementers - timeExpression with frames. How do we calculate the video frame?
15:56:37 [mmartin3]
...Cases where different time representations using clock with frames that result in the same video frame.
15:56:46 [mmartin3]
...M->1 mapping OK.
15:57:20 [mmartin3]
....Glenn proposed a different algortihm to go to 1-1 with some side effects. What is the best approach and give guidance in TTML 1.0 SE.
15:57:52 [mmartin3]
...Issue exist for non-integer frame rates with timeExpression with clock with frames.
15:58:14 [mmartin3]
glenn: Implementer may have come to different conclusions. What was our original intent?
15:58:37 [mmartin3]
...Thread wasn't on public reflector.
15:59:03 [mmartin3]
sean: Glenn and Sean prepare a discussion document for Jan 17 or 24.
15:59:46 [mmartin3]
mike: Work with issue and what is on reflector.
16:00:05 [Zakim]
16:00:12 [mmartin3]
plh: Will be gone Jan 17.
16:00:18 [Zakim]
16:00:20 [Zakim]
16:00:21 [mmartin3]
trackbot, end meeting
16:00:21 [trackbot]
Zakim, list attendees
16:00:21 [Zakim]
As of this point the attendees have been mmartin3, glenn, +49.893.aaaa, +1.425.658.aabb, Sean, +1.858.847.aacc, pal, mike, Andreas, Thomas_Bause_Mason, +1.408.771.aadd, mijordan,
16:00:24 [Zakim]
... Plh
16:00:24 [Zakim]
16:00:24 [Zakim]
16:00:24 [Zakim]
16:00:24 [Zakim]
16:00:25 [Zakim]
16:00:29 [trackbot]
RRSAgent, please draft minutes
16:00:29 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate trackbot
16:00:30 [trackbot]
RRSAgent, bye
16:00:30 [RRSAgent]
I see 3 open action items saved in :
16:00:30 [RRSAgent]
ACTION: Glenn Add "TTML" to name of SDP-US. Link: [1]
16:00:30 [RRSAgent]
recorded in
16:00:30 [RRSAgent]
ACTION: Glenn Delete 2 paragraphs after table in Appendix B of SDP-US. [2]
16:00:30 [RRSAgent]
recorded in
16:00:30 [RRSAgent]
ACTION: Glenn Correct font size in Example 2 in SDP-US. [3]
16:00:30 [RRSAgent]
recorded in