IRC log of rdf-wg on 2013-01-09

Timestamps are in UTC.

15:58:10 [RRSAgent]
RRSAgent has joined #rdf-wg
15:58:10 [RRSAgent]
logging to http://www.w3.org/2013/01/09-rdf-wg-irc
15:58:12 [trackbot]
RRSAgent, make logs world
15:58:12 [Zakim]
Zakim has joined #rdf-wg
15:58:14 [trackbot]
Zakim, this will be 73394
15:58:14 [Zakim]
ok, trackbot; I see SW_RDFWG()11:00AM scheduled to start in 2 minutes
15:58:15 [trackbot]
Meeting: RDF Working Group Teleconference
15:58:15 [trackbot]
Date: 09 January 2013
15:58:19 [AZ]
AZ has joined #rdf-wg
15:58:21 [davidwood]
davidwood has joined #rdf-wg
15:58:34 [yvesr]
yvesr has joined #rdf-wg
15:58:41 [Guus]
zakim, who is here?
15:58:41 [Zakim]
SW_RDFWG()11:00AM has not yet started, Guus
15:58:43 [Zakim]
On IRC I see yvesr, davidwood, AZ, Zakim, RRSAgent, gkellogg, danbri, SteveH_, AndyS, trackbot, Guus, ivan, gavinc, manu1, manu, mischat, sandro, ericP
15:59:18 [AndyS]
zakim, code?
15:59:18 [Zakim]
the conference code is 73394 (tel:+1.617.761.6200 sip:zakim@voip.w3.org), AndyS
15:59:53 [markus]
markus has joined #rdf-wg
16:00:21 [AndyS]
zakim, who is on the phone?
16:00:21 [Zakim]
SW_RDFWG()11:00AM has not yet started, AndyS
16:00:22 [Zakim]
On IRC I see markus, yvesr, davidwood, AZ, Zakim, RRSAgent, gkellogg, danbri, SteveH_, AndyS, trackbot, Guus, ivan, gavinc, manu1, manu, mischat, sandro, ericP
16:00:40 [AndyS]
zakim, who is on the phone?
16:00:40 [Zakim]
SW_RDFWG()11:00AM has not yet started, AndyS
16:00:41 [Zakim]
On IRC I see markus, yvesr, davidwood, AZ, Zakim, RRSAgent, gkellogg, danbri, SteveH_, AndyS, trackbot, Guus, ivan, gavinc, manu1, manu, mischat, sandro, ericP
16:00:47 [Guus]
zakim, who is here?
16:00:47 [Zakim]
SW_RDFWG()11:00AM has not yet started, Guus
16:00:48 [Zakim]
On IRC I see markus, yvesr, davidwood, AZ, Zakim, RRSAgent, gkellogg, danbri, SteveH_, AndyS, trackbot, Guus, ivan, gavinc, manu1, manu, mischat, sandro, ericP
16:00:50 [SteveH_]
I can hear andy...
16:01:03 [Arnaud]
Arnaud has joined #rdf-wg
16:01:57 [yvesr]
zakim, who is on the phone?
16:01:57 [Zakim]
SW_RDFWG()11:00AM has not yet started, yvesr
16:01:58 [Zakim]
On IRC I see Arnaud, markus, yvesr, davidwood, AZ, Zakim, RRSAgent, gkellogg, danbri, SteveH, AndyS, trackbot, Guus, ivan, gavinc, manu1, manu, mischat, sandro, ericP
16:02:54 [Guus]
zakim, this is rdf
16:02:54 [Zakim]
ok, Guus; that matches SW_RDFWG()11:00AM
16:03:03 [Zakim]
+??P6
16:03:07 [SteveH]
Zakim, who's on the phone?
16:03:07 [Zakim]
On the phone I see +31.20.598.aaaa, ??P11, [IPcaller], +081165aabb, ??P26, ??P12, Arnaud, ??P6
16:03:13 [markus]
zaki, ??P6 is me
16:03:16 [AndyS]
zakim, IPcaller is me
16:03:16 [Zakim]
+AndyS; got it
16:03:17 [markus]
zakim, ??P6 is me
16:03:18 [Zakim]
+markus; got it
16:03:22 [gkellogg]
zakim, I am ??P11
16:03:22 [Zakim]
+gkellogg; got it
16:03:27 [Guus]
zakim, +31.20 is me
16:03:27 [Zakim]
+Guus; got it
16:03:34 [SteveH]
Zakim, ??P26 is me
16:03:34 [Zakim]
+SteveH; got it
16:04:01 [AZ]
Zakim, +081165aabb is me
16:04:01 [Zakim]
+AZ; got it
16:04:18 [cgreer]
cgreer has joined #rdf-wg
16:04:30 [Guus]
zakim, who is here?
16:04:30 [Zakim]
On the phone I see Guus, gkellogg, AndyS, AZ, SteveH, ??P12, Arnaud, markus
16:04:32 [Zakim]
On IRC I see cgreer, Arnaud, markus, yvesr, davidwood, AZ, Zakim, RRSAgent, gkellogg, danbri, SteveH, AndyS, trackbot, Guus, ivan, gavinc, manu1, manu, mischat, sandro, ericP
16:04:34 [Zakim]
+ +1.707.874.aacc
16:04:41 [cgreer]
zakim, aacc is me
16:04:41 [Zakim]
+cgreer; got it
16:05:06 [yvesr]
Zakim, ??P12 is me
16:05:06 [Zakim]
+yvesr; got it
16:06:02 [Zakim]
+[GVoice]
16:06:25 [ericP]
Zakim, [GVoice] is me
16:06:25 [Zakim]
+ericP; got it
16:06:40 [cgreer]
scribenick: cgreer
16:07:13 [cgreer]
topic: admin
16:07:31 [cgreer]
resolved: minutes accepted from last meeting
16:07:56 [cgreer]
topic: open actions
16:09:21 [cgreer]
Topic: Turtle
16:09:23 [Zakim]
+Sandro
16:09:28 [ivan]
zakim, dial ivan-voip
16:09:28 [Zakim]
ok, ivan; the call is being made
16:09:29 [Zakim]
+Ivan
16:09:41 [sandro]
(Ivan and I were in another meeting, sorry)
16:10:05 [cgreer]
Guus: We have three open issues still for Turtle. First is ISSUE-95.
16:11:02 [cgreer]
@ericp: I need to keep this in mind and follow up. I spoke with the commenter, who reluctantly agreed... to accept the resolution without overt happiness.
16:11:54 [Guus]
RESOLVED: minutes of 19 Dec telecon accepted http://www.w3.org/2011/rdf-wg/meeting/2012-12-19
16:12:34 [cgreer]
Guus: Second open issue for Turtle, ISSUE-100.
16:14:12 [cgreer]
Sandro: I think the spec is just fine, and there's not enough information in the issue.
16:14:17 [AZ]
is it related to ACTION-191: Add escaping to Turtle in HTML?
16:15:46 [sandro]
action-191?
16:15:46 [trackbot]
ACTION-191 -- Gavin Carothers to add escaping to Turtle in HTML -- due 2012-10-17 -- OPEN
16:15:46 [trackbot]
http://www.w3.org/2011/rdf-wg/track/actions/191
16:16:36 [cgreer]
@erikp: Trying to understand a document with several graphs embedded in it implicitly.
16:16:49 [cgreer]
gkellogg: I put everything I find into the default graph
16:17:13 [cgreer]
gkellogg: I even look for microdata when searching for RDFa and include that.
16:17:30 [AZ]
s/@erikp/@ericP/
16:17:52 [cgreer]
Guus: So we need to add some links to this issue description and close it.
16:18:01 [Zakim]
+ +1.408.992.aadd
16:18:37 [cgreer]
Guus: It's still on Gavin's plate for ACTION-191
16:18:49 [cgreer]
Subtopic: Well-formed lists
16:19:09 [cgreer]
Sandro: I know this one, and it has nothing to do with turtle.
16:19:26 [Souri]
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16:19:34 [cgreer]
Sandro: It's a general RDF issue, with implications for turtle.
16:19:50 [Zakim]
+ +1.603.897.aaee
16:19:59 [Souri]
zakim, aaee is me
16:19:59 [Zakim]
+Souri; got it
16:20:12 [cgreer]
@ericp: Are there type constraints for well-formed lists?
16:20:12 [davidwood]
Sorry - in a noisy airport and can't get a good connection. Will try to monitor, though. Please IRC me directly if you would like my attention.
16:20:15 [pfps]
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16:20:24 [cgreer]
Sandro: My proposal is to defined well-formed lists as what turtle does here.
16:20:31 [sandro]
sandro: this is based on turtle, no affecting turtle
16:20:52 [cgreer]
Guus: This in other words doesn't affect turtle.
16:21:12 [ericP]
i think http://www.w3.org/mid/20130109161231.GD30410@w3.org closes ISSUE-95
16:22:15 [cgreer]
@ericp: The feature at risk, second bullet point in http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rdf-wg/2013Jan/0025.html
16:22:35 [cgreer]
@ericp: Assuming I know what the feature at risk is, I think it's not an issue.
16:22:51 [cgreer]
Guus: So we need a new resolution about what 'at risk features' are.
16:23:07 [sandro]
cgreer, there should not be a "@" before "ericp" in scribing....
16:23:57 [cgreer]
Guus: We'll look for a grammar resolution that resolves conflicts.
16:24:06 [cgreer]
ericp: And we did that before publication.
16:24:19 [Zakim]
+PatH
16:24:21 [Zakim]
+GavinC
16:24:30 [sandro]
GRRRRRRRRRRRRR. Stupid css "Feature at Risk" means I can't search for them.
16:25:15 [cgreer]
Sandro: Can I propse we not use CSS for "feature at risk?"
16:25:26 [cgreer]
s/propse/propose
16:25:28 [PatH]
PatH has joined #rdf-wg
16:25:40 [PatH]
zakim, mute me
16:25:40 [Zakim]
PatH should now be muted
16:27:09 [sandro]
action: ericP change the AtRisk styling to allow searching documents for the words "feature" and "risk" to find Features At Risk
16:27:09 [trackbot]
Created ACTION-220 - Change the AtRisk styling to allow searching documents for the words "feature" and "risk" to find Features At Risk [on Eric Prud'hommeaux - due 2013-01-16].
16:27:57 [ericP]
https://dvcs.w3.org/hg/rdf/raw-file/default/rdf-turtle/index.html#sec-grammar-grammar
16:29:32 [cgreer]
Guus: Either today or after telecom I'd like proposal for "Features at Risk"
16:30:12 [cgreer]
ericp: If we accept grammar issues I can remove diff markings.
16:30:34 [cgreer]
gavinc: They are editorial and only changes are in line with features at risk.
16:31:43 [ericP]
PROPOSAL: the Turtle CR will have one feature at risk: the grammar productions for SPARQL prefix and base
16:32:14 [cgreer]
Guus: What determines whether this feature is in or out? Implementation?
16:32:26 [cgreer]
ericp: Feedback is invited.
16:32:31 [pchampin]
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16:32:48 [cgreer]
Guus: Usually features at risk are decided by implementation experience, is this OK?
16:32:52 [cgreer]
Sandro: Yes
16:32:59 [ericP]
+1
16:32:59 [ivan]
+1
16:33:01 [gkellogg]
+1
16:33:03 [yvesr]
+1
16:33:04 [cgreer]
+1
16:33:06 [markus]
+1
16:33:12 [Guus]
+1
16:33:12 [AndyS]
+1
16:33:13 [Arnaud]
+1
16:33:14 [AZ]
+1
16:33:21 [ericP]
RESOLVED: the Turtle CR will have one feature at risk: the grammar productions for SPARQL prefix and base
16:33:30 [gavinc]
+1
16:34:17 [cgreer]
Guus: A few more issues in my message... OK HTML5 link.
16:34:29 [Zakim]
-cgreer
16:34:36 [cgreer]
... in the transition request we must indicate whether there are normative references to
16:34:38 [Zakim]
+??P52
16:34:42 [cgreer]
Just lost audio.
16:35:11 [Zakim]
+cgreer
16:35:29 [ericP]
Guus: the "normative ref" to HTML5 is actually in an informative section
16:35:53 [ericP]
... the link is regarding script tags
16:36:04 [cgreer]
Guus: I'm unclear as to the status of this document.
16:36:07 [gavinc]
gavinc: The HTML5 refrence being nominative is a bug.
16:36:35 [cgreer]
Sandro: as long as it's not a normative reference it's OK.
16:37:03 [cgreer]
gavinc: The link only leads to another link, to editor's draft.
16:37:21 [cgreer]
Guus: The purpose of this whole scheme is that it should work in five years.
16:37:46 [cgreer]
ivan: Having a reference to stable CR document is fine and that's what we should do.
16:37:56 [cgreer]
gavinc: So we no longer refer to latest editor's draft?
16:38:28 [cgreer]
ericp: I'm OK with that regardless of what the link end says.
16:38:54 [ivan]
http://localhost:8001/TR/2012/CR-html5-20121217/
16:38:58 [gkellogg]
http://www.w3.org/TR/html5/scripting-1.html#the-script-element
16:39:06 [ivan]
http://www.w3.org/TR/2012/CR-html5-20121217/
16:39:27 [cgreer]
gavinc: I'll get the link fixed.
16:39:43 [cgreer]
Guus: What about the date of the documents?
16:40:51 [cgreer]
sandro: When you check in, update the date.
16:41:10 [cgreer]
ericp: I'll update CSS and Gavin will update link reference.
16:41:20 [cgreer]
Guus: It would be good to send request Friday.
16:41:26 [cgreer]
... Can you do this in next 24 hours?
16:41:30 [cgreer]
gavinc: Sure.
16:41:48 [cgreer]
subtopic: Coverage of Turtle Tests
16:42:30 [cgreer]
ericp: The goal is to look through the grammar and concepts of language features and make sure we have tests that cover them all
16:42:52 [cgreer]
... In the process I created a set of minimal tests. One n-triples statement, then features are minimal deviations from that.
16:43:01 [ericP]
https://dvcs.w3.org/hg/rdf/raw-file/default/rdf-turtle/coverage/report.html
16:43:50 [cgreer]
ericp: There are some redundant tests (with exactly same features)
16:44:16 [cgreer]
ericp: So another question - do we want to use existing test suite or minimal tests.
16:44:41 [cgreer]
ericp: Minimal tests have advantage of what feature is failing.
16:44:41 [gavinc]
"minimal tests?"
16:44:54 [AndyS]
where are the minimal tests as a suite online?
16:44:58 [cgreer]
... If we use Andy's tests, we know they're weathered, people have been using them for a while.
16:45:14 [Guus]
q?
16:45:15 [cgreer]
sandro: What's the advantage of having both?
16:45:25 [cgreer]
s/having/not having/
16:45:58 [cgreer]
ericp: If we're pedantic about it, if somebody passes minimal tests, except the two at the end, then fail a couple of Andy's tests,
16:46:18 [cgreer]
... Andy's tests may not pinpoint feature failures precisely.
16:46:22 [gavinc]
That's a failure to implement Turtle :P
16:46:39 [cgreer]
Sandro: I'd rather have both sets of tests.
16:46:58 [cgreer]
ericp: We ran into this with SPARQL and didn't know how to resolve it.
16:47:05 [gavinc]
Turtle is a great deal smaller then a query language.
16:47:31 [cgreer]
... another option is to use minimal tests when reporting on failure, and others as a second set.
16:48:01 [cgreer]
Sandro: Submitter should be passing all tests anyhow.
16:48:21 [cgreer]
ericp: From SPARQL, a lot of folks failed entailment tests because they didn't implement them.
16:48:50 [cgreer]
... with the minimal tests then I'd rather see a failure than a disabled test.
16:48:57 [gavinc]
Turtle is VERY VERY tiny
16:49:03 [cgreer]
Sandro: I don't think this will matter for turtle. We expect full implementations.
16:49:23 [gavinc]
I expect ALL implementations to implement ALL of Turtle :P
16:49:30 [cgreer]
ericp: But it's still useful to know about what the test coverage is for a given language version.
16:50:05 [cgreer]
gkellogg: In RDFa we tend to break features out, and have a feature-based test suite.
16:50:14 [sandro]
q?
16:50:30 [cgreer]
gkellogg: Failing features are generally removed from the test reports.
16:50:51 [cgreer]
Sandro: It seems that Eric's tests are unit tests for debugging, and Andy's are for regression, confidence in whole system
16:51:19 [cgreer]
gkellogg: Interaction tests are useful. Beyond minimal feature tests.
16:51:32 [cgreer]
ericp: But we've not been diligent to test feature interaction.
16:52:07 [AndyS]
No test suite is complete. Lots of weird, obscure interactions possible e.g. all bnodes are all the same.
16:52:46 [cgreer]
gkellogg: Also we'll find that people add tests when they hit failures. If we find processors that all pass, but differ in a particular use case, we add a test that covers that combination.
16:52:57 [cgreer]
ericp: We can do that same thing here.
16:53:11 [PatH]
Sorry, have to leave early fter arriving late.
16:53:17 [sandro]
gavinc, I wonder if we can find someone to donate a prize to the writer of the smallest turtle parser. :-)
16:53:32 [Zakim]
-PatH
16:53:35 [cgreer]
Guus: I think we list the minimal test suite in the transition request.
16:53:43 [AndyS]
q+ to ask where the minimal suite is
16:54:15 [gavinc]
it exists inside a perl module which is now checked in with Turtle
16:54:36 [AndyS]
So I can't execute it. Hmm.
16:55:07 [sandro]
checked in with Turtle?
16:55:27 [cgreer]
gavinc: Didn't Greg already do reporting for the larger test suite?
16:55:50 [cgreer]
ericp: What I don't understand is how to map features to test reports.
16:55:57 [cgreer]
gavinc: Why do we have to do that?
16:56:17 [cgreer]
ericp: It's a method for finding which implementations have what shortcomings.
16:56:36 [cgreer]
sandro: this situation is for when a big test fails, and we don't know what that means.
16:57:05 [cgreer]
ericp: So if they've failed a small test... that justifies the division between minimal test suite and the larger one.
16:57:21 [cgreer]
sandro: I agree that it's good to have a distinction.
16:57:52 [cgreer]
gkellogg: Two manifests would help. In JSON-LD we decided that the tests that start at '1000' are intended to be large, hard tests.
16:58:08 [cgreer]
... for something like SPARQL, you could break it into several manifests.
16:58:38 [cgreer]
... but turtle is small, and bigger tests that fail should probably be rewritten into smaller ones.
16:59:04 [Guus]
q?
16:59:20 [cgreer]
... a single test manifest is probably best here, and more practical. We could partition the tests at some point that distinguishes between minimal tests and larger ones.
17:00:34 [Zakim]
-Arnaud
17:00:45 [ericP]
-> https://dvcs.w3.org/hg/rdf/raw-file/default/rdf-turtle/coverage/paths minimal tests (3rd column)
17:01:08 [gkellogg]
q+
17:03:03 [gavinc]
... again, does ANYONE think that Turtle implementations will NOT be complete?
17:03:30 [cgreer]
sandro: all the approved test should be in the transition request.
17:03:56 [gkellogg]
q-
17:04:03 [AndyS]
ack me
17:04:03 [Zakim]
AndyS, you wanted to ask where the minimal suite is
17:04:49 [cgreer]
ericp: Do we want syntax tests that are the same as evaluation tests?
17:05:21 [cgreer]
davidwood: My implemenations that had evaluation tests.. those were also treated as syntax tests.
17:05:22 [AndyS]
the eval test, + and - should be syntax correct.
17:05:47 [cgreer]
ericp: It sounds like all of these tests had the reference graph with them.
17:06:08 [cgreer]
davidwood: Back then, no, there were a lot of positive tests, negative tests, and entailment tests.
17:06:29 [cgreer]
... And I treated the latter as syntax tests too.
17:06:29 [gavinc]
s/davidwood/sandro
17:06:37 [cgreer]
oops
17:07:16 [cgreer]
ericp: The difference between evaluation tests and syntax is reporting.
17:08:18 [cgreer]
I'll get it back from Gavin later.
17:09:18 [cgreer]
ericp: Do we take all of the evaluation tests, and duplicate them as syntax tests?
17:09:30 [cgreer]
... or the opposite, eliminating redudandancies
17:09:31 [gavinc]
No. We don't do that.
17:10:10 [cgreer]
gkellogg: I don't see a reason to remove any tests. eval tests are a superset of syntax tests. If you were to fail evaluation tests that passed for syntax, what does that mean?
17:10:23 [AndyS]
There should be no syntax tested in eval that is not elsewhere. May well have got coverage wrong and would like to see people submit new tests.
17:10:28 [cgreer]
gkellogg: The more ways you test something the better your confidence level is.
17:10:33 [gavinc]
Yes.
17:11:15 [cgreer]
ivan: We have a bunch of other things to discuss. Testing details should be out of scope for telecon.
17:11:25 [gkellogg]
agree with Ivan
17:12:21 [cgreer]
ivan: The charter is expiring (an example of something we need to discuss as a WG)
17:12:28 [tlr]
tlr has joined #rdf-wg
17:12:36 [tlr]
hi guys, any chance to get off the bridge?
17:13:05 [cgreer]
Guus: If you check the open issues list, we seem to be almost done. There are some issues in cleanup tasks.
17:13:16 [cgreer]
.. We should mainly be completing the documents.
17:13:29 [AndyS]
me AOB -- I have a Q about TriG and NQuads ... we are doing these aren't we?
17:13:29 [cgreer]
ivan: But what about the semantic document discussions? We need to bring that back up.
17:14:46 [cgreer]
I just scribed last time :)
17:14:50 [Zakim]
-Sandro
17:14:52 [Zakim]
-yvesr
17:14:53 [Zakim]
-AndyS
17:14:55 [Zakim]
-Ivan
17:14:57 [Zakim]
-SteveH
17:14:57 [Zakim]
-AZ
17:14:58 [Zakim]
-Souri
17:15:00 [Zakim]
-gkellogg
17:15:02 [Zakim]
-cgreer
17:15:04 [markus]
bye
17:15:05 [Zakim]
-GavinC
17:15:06 [tlr]
tlr has left #rdf-wg
17:15:07 [Zakim]
-markus
17:15:08 [Zakim]
-ericP
17:15:15 [Zakim]
-pchampin
17:15:36 [ericP]
Zakim, who is here?
17:15:36 [Zakim]
On the phone I see Guus, +1.408.992.aadd
17:15:37 [Zakim]
On IRC I see pfps, cgreer, Arnaud, markus, yvesr, Zakim, RRSAgent, gkellogg, danbri, SteveH, AndyS, trackbot, Guus, ivan, gavinc, manu1, manu, mischat, sandro, ericP
17:15:44 [AndyS]
AndyS has left #rdf-wg
17:15:47 [ericP]
Zakim, please disconnect guus
17:15:47 [Zakim]
Guus is being disconnected
17:15:48 [Zakim]
-Guus
17:15:51 [ericP]
Zakim, please disconnect aadd
17:15:51 [Zakim]
+1.408.992.aadd is being disconnected
17:15:52 [Zakim]
SW_RDFWG()11:00AM has ended
17:15:52 [Zakim]
Attendees were +31.20.598.aaaa, Arnaud, AndyS, markus, gkellogg, Guus, SteveH, AZ, +1.707.874.aacc, cgreer, yvesr, ericP, Sandro, Ivan, +1.408.992.aadd, +1.603.897.aaee, Souri,
17:15:52 [Zakim]
... PatH, GavinC, pchampin
17:19:11 [Guus]
trackbot, end meeting
17:19:11 [trackbot]
Zakim, list attendees
17:19:11 [Zakim]
sorry, trackbot, I don't know what conference this is
17:19:19 [trackbot]
RRSAgent, please draft minutes
17:19:19 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2013/01/09-rdf-wg-minutes.html trackbot
17:19:20 [trackbot]
RRSAgent, bye
17:19:20 [RRSAgent]
I see 1 open action item saved in http://www.w3.org/2013/01/09-rdf-wg-actions.rdf :
17:19:20 [RRSAgent]
ACTION: ericP change the AtRisk styling to allow searching documents for the words "feature" and "risk" to find Features At Risk [1]
17:19:20 [RRSAgent]
recorded in http://www.w3.org/2013/01/09-rdf-wg-irc#T16-27-09