IRC log of indie-ui on 2013-01-09

Timestamps are in UTC.

17:57:12 [RRSAgent]
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17:57:12 [RRSAgent]
logging to
17:57:14 [trackbot]
RRSAgent, make logs public
17:57:14 [Zakim]
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17:57:16 [trackbot]
Zakim, this will be INDIE
17:57:16 [Zakim]
ok, trackbot, I see WAI_Indie()1:00PM already started
17:57:17 [trackbot]
Meeting: Independent User Interface Task Force Teleconference
17:57:17 [trackbot]
Date: 09 January 2013
17:57:27 [andy]
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17:57:45 [janina]
zakim, who's here?
17:57:45 [Zakim]
On the phone I see ??P21
17:57:46 [Zakim]
On IRC I see andy, Zakim, RRSAgent, janina, hober, Lachy, MichaelC, smaug, trackbot, shepazu
17:57:57 [janina]
zakim, ??P21 is Janina_Sajka
17:57:57 [Zakim]
+Janina_Sajka; got it
17:58:04 [janina]
Meeting: IndieUI Task Force Teleconference
17:58:04 [janina]
Chair: Janina_Sajka
17:58:04 [janina]
agenda+ Telecon Time Scheduling
17:58:04 [janina]
agenda+ Shall we publish an Events Module FPWD?
17:58:04 [janina]
agenda+ Editor's Update: User Needs Module
17:58:05 [Lachy]
17:58:06 [janina]
agenda+ Closed Issues
17:58:09 [janina]
agenda+ Open Issues
17:58:11 [janina]
agenda+ Scribe for our Next Teleconference (on 9 January)
17:58:14 [janina]
agenda+ Be Done
17:58:42 [janina]
17:59:30 [janina]
OK, thanks. We'll be appointing a scribe, so you should be pretty much up to speed on substance.
17:59:43 [Zakim]
18:00:16 [janina]
zakim, ??P25 is Andy_Heath
18:00:16 [Zakim]
+Andy_Heath; got it
18:01:07 [andy]
zakim, mute me
18:01:07 [Zakim]
Andy_Heath should now be muted
18:01:21 [andy]
pretty good, ty
18:01:29 [jcraig]
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18:01:36 [andy]
got it - ty, sorry for being thick
18:02:15 [Zakim]
18:02:40 [jcraig]
Zakim, Apple has jcraig
18:02:40 [Zakim]
+jcraig; got it
18:02:45 [andy]
hny 2 all
18:02:52 [Zakim]
18:03:40 [janina]
regrets: rich
18:04:32 [andy]
zakim, unmute me
18:04:32 [Zakim]
Andy_Heath should no longer be muted
18:05:59 [dmazzoni]
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18:06:10 [jcraig]
Andy, try typing into IRC
18:06:47 [Zakim]
+ +1.650.214.aaaa
18:07:02 [jcraig]
Zakim, aaaa is dmazzoni
18:07:02 [Zakim]
+dmazzoni; got it
18:07:56 [jcraig]
scribe: jcraig
18:08:28 [jcraig]
18:08:52 [jcraig]
next item
18:09:19 [jcraig]
js: 18:00 GMT is now. 22:00 GMT is the other time.
18:09:51 [jcraig]
q+ to say I thought it was 23:00 or 24:00 (midnight GMT)
18:10:17 [jcraig]
js: 2 months from to next global time change
18:10:37 [jcraig]
js: makes that time bad for OZ and JP
18:11:05 [jcraig]
js: should discuss more at the next call during 22:00
18:11:12 [dmazzoni]
scribe: dmazzoni
18:11:55 [dmazzoni]
jcraig: i thought that the time slot we had discussed earlier would be 3 or 4 pm my time, which is 22h or midnight gmt?
18:12:17 [dmazzoni]
js: i wouldn't have agreed to that, not on wednesdays?
18:13:56 [dmazzoni]
it's not me
18:15:11 [janina]
zakim, mute andy
18:15:11 [Zakim]
Andy_Heath should now be muted
18:15:14 [Zakim]
18:15:46 [Zakim]
18:16:13 [jcraig]
next item
18:16:20 [jcraig]
18:16:24 [jcraig]
next item
18:16:35 [dmazzoni]
scribe: jcraig
18:16:37 [MichaelC]
zakim, take up item 2
18:16:37 [Zakim]
agendum 2. "Shall we publish an Events Module FPWD?" taken up [from janina]
18:17:06 [Ryladog]
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18:17:32 [jcraig]
js: we have a candidate draft we can publish as FPWD with group approval
18:18:06 [jcraig]
js: some substantive comments (all addressed?) are we ready to call for consensus?
18:18:31 [jcraig]
js: any opposed to publishing?
18:19:05 [jcraig]
18:19:19 [jcraig]
js: next major step would be a LCWD
18:19:30 [jcraig]
dm: no objections, but a question:
18:20:03 [jcraig]
dm: what would be a reason (abstractly) why we'd delay? Also, what do we expect in terms of feedback?
18:20:17 [Ryladog]
18:20:26 [jcraig]
dm: based on that, should we be concerned?
18:21:30 [janina]
scribe: janina
18:21:46 [janina]
jc: One possible reason to delay might be too many "yet to be written" sections
18:21:58 [MichaelC]
hober, Lachy, shepazu, smaug: we´re in the process of collecting input on a decision to publish IndieUI Events to TR - would you like to vote one way or the other via IRC? It will also be subject to an email confirmation, but as much input we can get now would be helpful.
18:22:03 [janina]
jc: The balance we look for is enough substance to give people a pretty clear picture of where we're heading
18:22:05 [Zakim]
18:22:12 [hober]
Zakim, Apple.a is me
18:22:12 [Zakim]
+hober; got it
18:22:19 [Lachy]
I have no objection to publishing a WD
18:22:44 [janina]
jc: Event blocking was removed because we knew there were valid concerns on that
18:22:45 [smaug]
MichaelC: I'd prefer doing that via email
18:22:55 [smaug]
(busy right now)
18:22:57 [janina]
jc: Once we publish we expect a round of public feedback
18:23:16 [janina]
jc: We'll try to incorporate feedback
18:23:40 [janina]
jc: There will be additional draft versions moving forward until we believe we've addressed all concerns
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18:23:54 [janina]
jc: At that point we do a "Last Call"
18:24:16 [janina]
jc: If there are no further comments at that point we move to "Candidate Recommendation" where testing is required.
18:24:30 [janina]
18:24:55 [Zakim]
18:25:22 [andy]
18:25:24 [andy]
18:25:27 [andy]
18:25:35 [MichaelC]
zakim, ??P19 is Andy_Heath
18:25:35 [Zakim]
+Andy_Heath; got it
18:26:14 [andy]
zakim, mute me
18:26:15 [Zakim]
Andy_Heath should now be muted
18:26:46 [jcraig]
dm: appropriate to provide FAQ and anticipatory objections in the spec or announcement of FPWD?
18:27:29 [MichaelC]
ack r
18:27:34 [jcraig]
jc: Yes. Please provide any feedback, positive or negative.
18:29:22 [jcraig]
mc: I can post a link to issue tracker in the doc status section of the WD
18:29:30 [MichaelC]
-> W3C Spec Publish Process
18:29:46 [jcraig]
khs: did Rich's comments make it in?
18:30:17 [jcraig]
jc: First round of Rich's comments are in. I have not yet read the second reply.
18:30:21 [MichaelC]
-> How WAI Develops Accessibility Guidelines through the W3C Process
18:30:47 [MichaelC]
Note the above was written for WAI but applies to general W3C process
18:31:01 [jcraig]
mc: Look through formal requirements in the first link.
18:31:51 [jcraig]
dm: not entirely sure why the ui-actions attribute was necessary.
18:34:18 [jcraig]
dm: some questions (not necessarily from me, but to clarify in the document):
18:34:34 [jcraig]
dm: is there any harm to always send these events? why prevent them in some circumstances?
18:35:03 [Ryladog]
JC: The 2nd question was why the need for receiver?
18:35:12 [jcraig]
dm: why the need for event.receiver (el with @ui-actions) instead of just event.listener
18:35:56 [jcraig]
why is ui-action needed. a: b/c receiver need to be defined somehow.
18:36:01 [Ryladog]
Dom: I was thinking why is a UI attribute action needed? A reciever would not be possible without it
18:36:34 [Ryladog]
JC: The UR actions atribute to find the reveicer,/ RThee receoiver is needed to find the event
18:37:00 [Ryladog]
JC: with the exception of the manupulation eevent there isnt any harm
18:37:26 [Ryladog]
JC: part of the reason for defining this is to say I respond to this specifically for this item
18:37:47 [Ryladog]
JC: All of the other ones are going to respond to standard focus and blur events
18:38:01 [Ryladog]
JC: Should I clarify the other more in the document?
18:38:20 [Ryladog]
Dom: that is right.
18:38:41 [Ryladog]
MC: Is this something we want tp do before we publish?
18:38:52 [Ryladog]
JC: I will try to addresss oem of this today
18:39:25 [Ryladog]
Dom: I want to be clear that I do not want to hold this draft up, but would like more clarification on these events
18:40:00 [Ryladog]
JC: I will try to put in today mostly editorial, but to clarify the backwards compatability conceren
18:40:21 [Ryladog]
JC:L You are right to bring it up before the 1st Public Working Draft
18:40:25 [janina]
18:40:36 [Ryladog]
JC: If we can clarify any of this before that is better
18:41:08 [Ryladog]
JC: What about the rich text editing stuff Dominic, do you think this is out iof scope for the 1.0 draft?
18:41:48 [Ryladog]
Dom: Yes it is out of scope for 1.0, but in the future it is relevant. We should start a draft now, maybe add later
18:42:12 [Ryladog]
JC: Are you saying we need to start the conversation now?
18:42:16 [Ryladog]
Dom: Yes
18:42:27 [Ryladog]
MC: Lets not think too far forward
18:42:54 [Ryladog]
MC: We either add a placeholkder in the draft OR create a n issue in tracxker and come back to it later
18:43:08 [Ryladog]
Dom: It is more in the scope of ARIA 2.0
18:43:46 [Ryladog]
MC: Lets them make it an issue in tracker now and it will get it on our agenda to address
18:44:23 [MichaelC]
issue: Rich text editing
18:44:23 [trackbot]
Created ISSUE-9 - Rich text editing; please complete additional details at <>.
18:44:27 [Ryladog]
jc: We also have an ARIA issue for this, and we should relTE THE TWO. Address Rich Text Editing
18:45:03 [MichaelC]
issue-9: relates to PFWG-ISSUE-92
18:45:03 [trackbot]
Notes added to ISSUE-9 Rich text editing.
18:45:07 [jcraig]
PF Issue 92
18:45:14 [Ryladog]
MC: Issue 9 (Indie UI) relates to ARIA issue 92 (PF) Rich Text Editing
18:45:42 [jcraig]
Zakim, who is on the phone?
18:45:42 [Zakim]
On the phone I see Janina_Sajka, [Apple], Michael_Cooper, dmazzoni, Katie_Haritos-Shea, hober, Andy_Heath (muted)
18:45:42 [Ryladog]
JS: Some of the n=ext step, we should move forwrd withthe working draft
18:45:43 [MichaelC]
issue-9: relates to
18:45:43 [trackbot]
Notes added to ISSUE-9 Rich text editing.
18:45:44 [Zakim]
[Apple] has jcraig
18:45:50 [Ryladog]
18:45:55 [jcraig]
no objection
18:45:56 [Ryladog]
18:47:36 [jcraig]
s/we need to start the conversation now/we should get RTE in the 1.0 drafts, and pull it out later if it's not ready/
18:48:01 [Ryladog]
JS: Call for consensus lasting 1 week to publish 1st Working draft of Indie UI Events
18:48:41 [Ryladog]
JS; We need to URI
18:49:27 [Ryladog]
yes, sorry, I am not a good minuter
18:49:29 [jcraig]
js: objections?
18:49:49 [jcraig]
RESOLUTION: The participants of this telecon agree to publish IndieUI: Events <> as a First Public Working Draft, subject to the group´s review procedure of an email call for consensus lasting one week, to be confirmed by a final resolution email
18:51:24 [jcraig]
js: I will announce on list, track the progress, and follow up with an email one week from today.
18:51:33 [jcraig]
zakim, next item
18:51:33 [Zakim]
agendum 3. "Editor's Update: User Needs Module" taken up [from janina]
18:51:53 [andy]
zakim, unmute me
18:51:53 [Zakim]
Andy_Heath should no longer be muted
18:52:05 [jcraig]
js: what's next for User Context?
18:53:07 [jcraig]
ah: planning to publish an initial list of prefs by end of January
18:54:11 [jcraig]
ah: for example, in IA3, there are adaptation types. resulting in quite a few prefs. Looking at flattening and condensing the list.
18:54:53 [jcraig]
jc: I encourage ruthlessness with regards to reduction of the list.
18:54:59 [janina]
18:58:58 [andy]
19:00:59 [jcraig]
jc: earliest User Context draft might be at end of February
19:01:29 [Zakim]
19:02:33 [jcraig]
jc: need to make the preference extensibility aspects "optionally normative" like x-vendor-attributes in HTML or -vendor-properties in CSS.
19:03:06 [Zakim]
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19:03:13 [Zakim]
19:03:14 [jcraig]
jcraig has left #indie-ui
19:03:18 [janina]
zakim, bye
19:03:18 [Zakim]
leaving. As of this point the attendees were Janina_Sajka, Andy_Heath, jcraig, Michael_Cooper, +1.650.214.aaaa, dmazzoni, Katie_Haritos-Shea, [Apple], hober
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rrsagent, make minutes
19:03:25 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate janina
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